The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup

[conspiracybeliever]

http://www.proparanoid.net/armymath.jpg
University of Wisconson Army Math Building
Bombed with 2,000 lb ANFO bomb in 1970
Discolored bricks show repaired area of damage,
no structural damage whatsoever, though truck
bomb was against wall only 8 ft from column!

But miraculously, it is capable of this.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/Roxdog/murrah2.jpg

http://www.livefreenow.org/events/images/gbp01.jpg
General Ben Partin, Ex Head of Air Force Weapons Development

"When I first saw the pictures of the truck bomb's asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete column bases."

http://www.proparanoid.net/Blasteffect.jpeg

Intersting take on all this:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

[Bronze Dog]

At least this looks like it's one step up from the pixel pareidolia.

[conspiracybeliever]

As usual a one-liner instead of addressing the info...

[Nyarlathotep]

"When I first saw the pictures of the truck bomb's asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete column bases."

Cuz we all know that looking at a picture gives one a far better idea of what happened than actually being there. So his analysis of the situtation trumps that of the investigators who were actually there.

How could I be so blind?

[JPK]

Good morning conspiracybeliever.

Since you seem to believe that you are on to something, can you kindly tell us what other buildings are wired to blow so we can do something about it ahead of time?
JPK

[conspiracybeliever]

Cuz we all know that looking at a picture gives one a far better idea of what happened than actually being there. So his analysis of the situtation trumps that of the investigators who were actually there.

How could I be so blind?
I don't know, honestly...lol


Bombed with 2,000 lb ANFO bomb in 1970
Discolored bricks show repaired area of damage,
no structural damage whatsoever, though truck
bomb was against wall only 8 ft from column!

[Bronze Dog]

As usual a one-liner instead of addressing the info...
The usual misinterpretaton. I meant that this looks like this would take a bit more work to shoot down than your earlier instance of screaming bloody murder at every white pixel that wasn't where it should have been.

Then again, I know more about digital artifacts than I do about measuring explosive forces.

[Nyarlathotep]

I don't know, honestly...lol

You're one liners don't negate the facts you fail to even address. :);)

[conspiracybeliever]

screaming bloody murder at every white pixel that wasn't where it should have been.
Your pixel conspiracy is far from adequate.

[conspiracybeliever]

Bombed with 2,000 lb ANFO bomb in 1970
Discolored bricks show repaired area of damage,
no structural damage whatsoever, though truck
bomb was against wall only 8 ft from column!
Any thoughts? Maybe the sun caused the damage to the columns at OKC?

[Bronze Dog]

Your pixel conspiracy is far from adequate.
I doubt that. Of course, even if it did fall short, that would mean nothing: You still haven't proven that those whatevers are explosions. Just because a UFO isn't a weather balloon doesn't mean it's an alien spacecraft.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives-anfo.htm

By one estimate, the bomb used to attack the Alfred Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995 consisted of an ANFO explosive main charge of approximately 4,000 pounds, based on an estimate of the Velocities of Detonation [VOD] of approximately 13,000 fps. Other estimates claim that the 1995 explosion that collapsed portions of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City contained 4,800 pounds of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. Later estimates suggested that the bomb had in excess of 6,200 pounds of various energetic materials, including explosives other than ANFO, equivalent to 5,000 pounds of TNT. In the Salameh World Trade Center bombing case resulting from the bombing of the World Trade Center (WTC) on February 26, 1993, FBI Explosives Unit examiner David Williams opined that the main explosive used in the bombing consisted of 1,200 pounds of urea nitrate explosive. The FBI chemists specializing in the examination of explosive residue, however, did not find any residue identifying the explosive at the World Trade Center.

[Bronze Dog]

Any thoughts? Maybe the sun caused the damage to the columns at OKC?
Way to straw man!

[kookbreaker]

Roxdog is dodging again:

http://www.leemark.com/featuredcontent/sterling/sterling.html


a van loaded with six barrels of explosives blew up just outside the East Wing of Sterling Hall at the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison.


That's a van. Not a U-haul. And only six barrels of the stuff. By comparison, the OK City bomb was 5000 lbs.

Other points is that the bomb went off near the loading section (not exactly the most weakest section of the building) and was exploded near the edge of the building. Add to that is that the building was a brick structure, wheras the Murrah building had large glass windows. Even so, it seems that the building required supports to keep it from collapsing, note the pictures at this link:

http://www.madison.com/library/LEE/sterlinghall.html

The Wisconsin was also set by radicals with little clue. Given the fact that it ended the sizeable anti-war protests on the campus cold, it almost seems to be more likely to be the result of conspiracy than OK City.

Apples to Oranges. With a CT twist on top.

But hey. I'm just guessing with a bit logic. Let's hear all the Structural Engineers, Demolition Experts, and other relevant fields who've studied the cases for the past 10-30years and see how much they agree with the CT. Surely in all this time many of them have spoken out on this topic, right?

[Manny]

General Ben Partin, Ex Head of Air Force Weapons DevelopmentInteresting. Do you agree with General Partin that UAL flight 93 was shot down, or with the Loosers that there was no civilian plane crashed into Shanksville, PA. If you disagree with the General there, on what basis to you agree with him here?

[Huntster]

....Since you seem to believe that you are on to something, can you kindly tell us what other buildings are wired to blow so we can do something about it ahead of time?....

Probably very few, if any.

But it would be kinda nice if we could do the right thing afterwards (instead of being misdirected, or given half the story), wouldn't it?

[Nyarlathotep]

Any thoughts? Maybe the sun caused the damage to the columns at OKC?

It requires no explanation from us as none of us are making a claim. BUt what the hey. Different explosions under different circumstances on differnet buildings will cause different effects.

Now perhaps you would care to explain what evidence you have that the explosion at the Alfred P Murrah building should have had the same effect as the one in your photo.

[LTC8K6]

The van was not parked anywhere near that arrow though.

The bomb used AN & jet fuel.

Sterling Hall was devastated and 19 other buildings were damaged to varying degrees.

[conspiracybeliever]

So the General that was Head of Air Force Weapons Development is a conspiracy theorist? Good to know. You guys are so smart.

Listen to the link. Their were bombs in the Alfred P Murrah building.

[LTC8K6]

Support the "8 ft from a column" bit please.

[JPK]

Good afternoon Huntster.
Probably very few, if any.

So no more attacks in the future? Great news. I'm glad the Big Bad Government has gotten that out of the way. No more worries.

But it would be kinda nice if we could do the right thing afterwards (instead of being misdirected, or given half the story), wouldn't it?
Who is this "we" that you speak of?
JPK

[conspiracybeliever]

The van was not parked anywhere near that arrow though.

The bomb used AN & jet fuel.

Sterling Hall was devastated and 19 other buildings were damaged to varying degrees.
So how many times more powerful is the air blast from a AN & nitromethane bomb to a AN & diesal fuel bomb?

[Nyarlathotep]

So the Genral that was Head of Air Force Weapons Development is a conspiracy theorist? Good to know. You guys are so smart.


Who said that, excepting you automatic straw man generator? I frankly am not familiar with the guy. But I don't care WHO you are, a first impression from a picture is no substitute for actual examination of the wreckage. WHy does his examination from a picture trump the examination of the investigators who were there? Beyond the obvious fact that his words (and we don't even know wha the context of them was) favor your conspiracy theory?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So how many times more powerful is the air blast from a AN & nitromethane bomb to a AN & diesal fuel bomb?

If you had bothered reading the link I provided, you would know that the VOD for an ANFO explosion is 13,000-15,000 fps, and, as is in the section I quoted, the Oklahoma bombing contained additional energetic materials besides the ANFO.

[Kochanski]

As usual a one-liner instead of addressing the info...

What info? I see pictures with quotes. Hardly hypothesis there for us to analyse and respond to.

Provide a complete and cogent hypothesis with as much data as you have, then you can expect an answer. Otherwise go find some friends to agree with you and stop bothering us with your picture books.

At least Mas & Co. provide us with fun pics, yours are just meaningless.

[LTC8K6]

Jet fuel is kerosene, btw.

Newspaper accounts have it as 1700 pounds, 4 - 55 gallon drums.

[Mojo]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/Roxdog/murrah2.jpgIntelligent conspirators, these. At the WTC, where, we are told, the building should have fallen outwards, they set up the buildings so as to collapse in on themselves as in a controlled demolition, but in Oklahoma, where the building should have been "blown in", they set it up so that it would look as if it had been "blown out".

Can't they get anything right?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Some of that data is incorrect, Timothy McVeigh's Ryder Truck (according to the Crime Library) carried a 4,000LB ammonium nitrate bomb, not 2,000LB. As we all hopefully know, doubling the amount of explosive increases exponentially the size of the blast. A 4,000LB ammonium nitrate bomb would have roughly 8x the explosive power of the 2,000LB blast.

I also found a site on the University of Wisconsin bombing, the van carrying the 2,000lb was not flush with the building,but parked in a delivery are. The picture that has been providecis the rebuilt portion of the University building, damaged bricks that were structurally sound were left in place.the damage to the building was mainly from concussion and fire.

[Nyarlathotep]

Intelligent conspirators, these. At the WTC, where, we are told, the building should have fallen outwards, they set up the buildings so as to collapse in on themselves as in a controlled demolition, but in Oklahoma, where the building should have been "blown in", they set it up so that it would look as if it had been "blown out".

Can't they get anything right?

The Globalists are apparently the worlds cleverest morons.

[LTC8K6]

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/whi_images_new/700099990273/9999004526-l.jpg

It looks like the van was considerably further away than "8ft from a column".

[Huntster]

Good afternoon Huntster....

Howdy!

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Probably very few, if any.

So no more attacks in the future? Great news. I'm glad the Big Bad Government has gotten that out of the way. No more worries.

I'm confused. Maybe I misunderstood your post:

....Since you seem to believe that you are on to something, can you kindly tell us what other buildings are wired to blow so we can do something about it ahead of time?....

I took that to ask how we would know about sabotaged buildings ahead of time in order to do something about it before they blew.

I doubt that's often possible, but I think it would be good for us (as a society of free voters, not to mention the jury in a subsequent trial of the accused) to be given accurate and truthful information on what happened.

I'm not sure that occurred after the Oklahoma City attack.

[LTC8K6]

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/artifacts/archives/001636.asp

[Manny]

So the General that was Head of Air Force Weapons Development is a conspiracy theorist? Good to know. You guys are so smart.Well, he believes the Murrah building was blown up by leftists to try to get America mad at the militias. He believes that TWA 800 was shot down by missiles, that someone (the government, the Branch Davidians themselves -- I'm not clear) placed a large demolitions charge in the Waco compound and that flight 93 was also shot down by missiles. He may be correct about all of these things, but yeah, I'd say that puts him into conspiracy theorist neighborhood.

But that's not relevant -- we address facts here, not people. I just found it interesting that he was being cited by someone who apparently doesn't believe that flight 93 was shot down. I was just curious as to how you weighed his evidence to come to agree with him about Oklahoma City but not about Shanksville, is all.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/whi_images_new/700099990273/9999004526-l.jpg

It looks like the van was considerably further away than "8ft from a column".

Yes, according to the police the van was parked near a loading area roughly 20ft from the building.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/whi_images_new/700099990273/9999004526-l.jpg

It looks like the van was considerably further away than "8ft from a column".

Am I the only one who had this mental dialogue upon viewing that pic?

"Gee Bob, there ain't much of this here thing left."
"Ayup."

[Mojo]

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/whi_images_new/700099990273/9999004526-l.jpg

It looks like the van was considerably further away than "8ft from a column".That photo looks to me as if they've gathered together all the bits of the van etc. that they could find and put them together. It doesn't necessarily show where the van was when it blew up.

[Hagrok]

Well, he believes the Murrah building was blown up by leftists to try to get America mad at the militias. He believes that TWA 800 was shot down by missiles, that someone (the government, the Branch Davidians themselves -- I'm not clear) placed a large demolitions charge in the Waco compound and that flight 93 was also shot down by missiles. He may be correct about all of these things, but yeah, I'd say that puts him into conspiracy theorist neighborhood.

But that's not relevant -- we address facts here, not people. I just found it interesting that he was being cited by someone who apparently doesn't believe that flight 93 was shot down. I was just curious as to how you weighed his evidence to come to agree with him about Oklahoma City but not about Shanksville, is all.
A vast number of highly placed Air Force people are... how can I say this politely... morons.

I have no idea how our military is as powerful as it is, having worked for the Air Force for a number of years.

[conspiracybeliever]

But that's not relevant -- we address facts here, not people.
That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.

And considering there were people yelling all this stuff at Clinton's Justice Department within days of the bombing with him ignoring it and blaming it on his "vast right wing conspiracy", I'd say there might be something to Partin's assessment.

[conspiracybeliever]

A vast number of highly placed Air Force people are... how can I say this politely... morons.

I have no idea how our military is as powerful as it is, having worked for the Air Force for a number of years.


we address facts here, not people.

:rolleyes:

[azazal]

What I find funny, I did a quick google on Gen. Partin and I'm finding all these CT web sites telling me about his record, but I'm not finding a copy of his record,assignments, etc.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.

And considering there were people yelling all this stuff at Clinton's Justice Department within days of the bombing with him ignoring it and blaming it on his "vast right wing conspiracy", I'd say there might be something to Partin's assessment.

So, do you have any facts to bring to the table aside from the OP?

[Hagrok]

Hey, I never said I addressed facts, not people :D

The point would be, just because the guy is retired airforce doesn't make his opinion on a photo any better then, say, manny's or my own. Would you take his opinion seriously if the caption said "Bob Dobbs, retired Fry Cook"?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.

And considering there were people yelling all this stuff at Clinton's Justice Department within days of the bombing with him ignoring it and blaming it on his "vast right wing conspiracy", I'd say there might be something to Partin's assessment.


AHEM:

Some of that data is incorrect, Timothy McVeigh's Ryder Truck (according to the Crime Library) carried a 4,000LB ammonium nitrate bomb, not 2,000LB. As we all hopefully know, doubling the amount of explosive increases exponentially the size of the blast. A 4,000LB ammonium nitrate bomb would have roughly 8x the explosive power of the 2,000LB blast.

I also found a site on the University of Wisconsin bombing, the van carrying the 2,000lb was not flush with the building,but parked in a delivery are. The picture that has been providecis the rebuilt portion of the University building, damaged bricks that were structurally sound were left in place.the damage to the building was mainly from concussion and fire.

[kookbreaker]

That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.

And considering there were people yelling all this stuff at Clinton's Justice Department within days of the bombing with him ignoring it and blaming it on his "vast right wing conspiracy", I'd say there might be something to Partin's assessment.

Dodge and weave, little boy. Do anything you can to try and avoid the points that were brought up.

You are a little scampering coward.

[Bronze Dog]

That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.

And considering there were people yelling all this stuff at Clinton's Justice Department within days of the bombing with him ignoring it and blaming it on his "vast right wing conspiracy", I'd say there might be something to Partin's assessment.
I'm curious what forum he's been reading.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is it recipe time yet?

[Luke T.]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/Roxdog/murrah2.jpg


When the face of a building slides off, where do you expect the debris to go?

[Huntster]

AHEM:

Some of that data is incorrect.....

Yes, but there was some accurate data that seems to be either incriminating or very coincidental, and not often talked about, including:

1) There were ongoing and independent FBI and ATF investigations occurring in that area, and at that time, focused on the same "right-wing" groups that McVeigh was closely associated with, and

2) None of the 19 or so ATF personnel were in their office in the Murray Building at the time of the attack.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Yes, but there was some accurate data that seems to be either incriminating or very coincidental, and not often talked about, including:

1) There were ongoing and independent FBI and ATF investigations occurring in that area, and at that time, focused on the same "right-wing" groups that McVeigh was closely associated with, and

2) None of the 19 or so ATF personnel were in their office in the Murray Building at the time of the attack.

Well, I obviously couldn't address those, they weren't mentioned in the original post.

I was addressing the bomb data and the apparent damage to the building.

[conspiracybeliever]

Dodge and weave, little boy. Do anything you can to try and avoid the points that were brought up.

You are a little scampering coward.

You're a ignorant loser, kookbreaker. I tried to be nice.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had offices in the Murrah Building. On the day the Murrah building was bombed, none of the ATF agents came to work that morning. The ATF agents, who had children in the day-care center, did not drop their children off that day. There were no ATF agents or their children on the casualty list of the Oklahoma City bombing. — Freedom Network News, June/July 1996, pp. 5, 6.

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_bombs.htm

[Manny]

What I find funny, I did a quick google on Gen. Partin and I'm finding all these CT web sites telling me about his record, but I'm not finding a copy of his record,assignments, etc.Gen. Parton is a legit retired Brigadier General. (http://www.af.mil/bios/bio_print.asp?bioID=6688&page=1)

[Bikewer]

Two years ago, the university I work for hired a demolition company to take down one of our old high-rise dormitories. 12-story, reinforced concrete structure. It took them two months of heavy-duty drilling, jack-hammering, and so forth to prep the building for demolition. Then they had to place the large number of charges and wire them ever so carefully together for maximal effect.

This would be a process that would be likely to attract attention in a working building, I'd imagine.
Has the conspiracy guy looked at the pics of the building that was blown up in the Middle East, the one that killed all the marines? Looked very similar to the federal building; another truck bomb.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Now that it has been brought to my attention, I will look into it. That still does not address the fact that the Murrah building bomb was twice the size of the University of Wisconsin bomb, or the fact the the picture in the original post shows the repaired building, with the structurally sound but damaged bricks intact.

The original post in this thread was erroneous on two points.

[Nyarlathotep]

So, the conspirators were callous enough to kill over one hundred people including a bunch of children on that day but were nice enough to let the ATF people in on the conspiracy and let them know so they didn't show up for work or drop off their kids. ANd not one of those ATF personnel has ever come forward out of conscience or to claim the lucrative book deal that would no doubt come from blowing the lid off of the conspiracy. Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

As for the Highway patrol logs, I would have to see them in context to comment. However, I have to point out that even if they are 'as advertised' that just because they THOUGHT there was a second or third bomb, in the confusion of the immediate moment, it doesn't mean they were correct.

[conspiracybeliever]

The size of the OKC ANFO bomb is debatable. The govt. kept having to say it was bigger and bigger as people asked more and more questions.

That's the only pic of the Math building I can find. It's still standing. I find that significant.

[conspiracybeliever]

So, the conspirators were callous enough to kill over one hundred people including a bunch of children on that day but were nice enough to let the ATF people in on the conspiracy and let them know so they didn't show up for work or drop off their kids. ANd not one of those ATF personnel has ever come forward out of conscience or to claim the lucrative book deal that would no doubt come from blowing the lid off of the conspiracy. Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

As for the Highway patrol logs, I would have to see them in context to comment. However, I have to point out that even if they are 'as advertised' that just because they THOUGHT there was a second or third bomb, in the confusion of the immediate moment, it doesn't mean they were correct.
How does your asserion negate the Highway Patrol logs and DOD memos?

[azazal]

Gen. Parton is a legit retired Brigadier General. (http://www.af.mil/bios/bio_print.asp?bioID=6688&page=1)


Thanks Manny, too much CT stuff to sift through

[steve s]

The show Seconds From Disaster on the National Geographic Channel did a show about the Murrah building. They found that the extensive damage was largely caused by the failure of the horizontal transfer beam which ran the full length of the building at about the second floor. The beam was meant to open up the first floor by bearing the weight of all the upper vertical beams and transfering their forces to the supports at each end of the transfer beam. The force of the explosion caused the transfer beam to roll back, which allowed all those upper vertical beams to collapse. As these vertical beams fell, they basically pulled the floors down with them.

[Edit] So when people look at all that damage and say "The bomb couldn't have caused all that", in effect they're right. The initial blast didn't cause all that destruction. All the bomb had to do was take out the transfer beam. The rest was left to gravity. If the vertical support beams had been allowed to go all the way to the ground instead of stopping at the transfer beam, perhaps the damage would not have been so severe.

Steve S.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

The size of the OKC ANFO bomb is debatable. The govt. kept having to say it was bigger and bigger as people asked more and more questions.

That's the only pic of the Math building I can find. It's still standing. I find that significant.

Not really. The bomb that hit the University of Wisconsin building was half the size of the Murrah building bomb. The van was parked approx. 20 feet away (as opposed to just around 8 ft for Mc Veigh's Ryder truck) in the picture you have it shows the buildind after it's been reconstructed and the concrete loading ramp removed (it was badly damaged by the bomb) and replaced by the gradient slope you see up to the building.

I have yet to find anything on ATF agents at the Murrah building, except on White Supremacy sites and CT site, I can find no actual credible news info one way or the other..............yet.

[Bronze Dog]

How does your asserion negate the Highway Patrol logs and DOD memos?
You do realize that not all alleged points have to be refuted in one post at the same time, right?

[Manny]

That is preposterous. Most of you guys will actually go and look for mostly irrelevent dirt on someone before you even address their assertions. You got a few badasses here, I will definitely give you that. Chipmunk comes to mind. But to say "oh, we address facts here, not people" is laughable at best.We are curious about the sources for statements, and how people come to believe them, I'll give you that. Gen. Partin is a guy with legitimate explosives expertise (though it may or may not be directly relevant to a particular explosion and he may or may not be accurate about one thing or another). It certainly seems logical that he'd be a source (though not the source -- as you know, citing others) of information or at least informed speculation about a topic like a bombing. Whatever I believe about the Murrah bombing, I think, having checked, that he's a perfectly legitimate source. But again, I'm curious about how you choose to believe him or not. I'm pretty confident that you don't think it was leftists who blew up Murrah, correct? And that you don't believe that UAL flight 93 was shot down over Shanksville, PA, also correct?

As a gesture of good faith, let me tell you the kinds of questions I'm not asking you. There isn't any evidence that you're an anarchist terrorist supporter like Alek. That's why I'm not bothering with questions like how a guy like General Partin gets to such a high level in an Air Force co-opted by the NWO, or how it is that he walks the earth free to say the things he's saying now. Questions would be non-sensical when posed to a person who hasn't opined that there is a NWO which controls our every move.

[Huntster]

Two years ago, the university I work for hired a demolition company to take down one of our old high-rise dormitories. 12-story, reinforced concrete structure. It took them two months of heavy-duty drilling, jack-hammering, and so forth to prep the building for demolition. Then they had to place the large number of charges and wire them ever so carefully together for maximal effect.

This would be a process that would be likely to attract attention in a working building, I'd imagine.....

That is all true and valid, however, a professional demolition engineering organization is performing a precise imploding operation, designed to demolish a structure with no damage to nearby facilities, and for maximum demolishing affect (in order to facilitate outloading).

ANFO bombs (slow and cumbersome, but which materials are easily obtained and which is easily constructed) are a completely different explosion, and (when used against public facilities) are detonated with a completely different goal.

[Nyarlathotep]

How does your asserion negate the Highway Patrol logs and DOD memos?


Simple. Where is the evidence of these other bombs? Are you saying that people never make mistakes in high pressure situations?

On 9/11 I heard several reports that the White house and the State Department buildings were blown up. The reports were wrong. Same type of situation.

[conspiracybeliever]

You do realize that not all alleged points have to be refuted in one post at the same time, right?
But he's cherry picking the info. Why did he address that but not the most daming info in the post? How come no one has addressed it? And he doesn't refute anything. He just says, "that's impossible because [insert theory]."

[Manny]

Thanks Manny, too much CT stuff to sift throughDe nada. Yeah, it took a few "minus signs" in the ol' Google box to find that one, though thinking of it now if I'd have restricted the search to .mil sites I could have saved myself some time.

[Nyarlathotep]

But he's cherry picking the info. Why did he address that but not the most daming info in the post? How come no one has addressed it? And he doesn't refute anything. He just says, "that's impossible because [insert theory]."


You, of all people, have no room to bitch about anyone "Cherry picking" info.

ETA, and all your doing is saying "It ahd to be the gubbmint because [insert theory]".

ETA And if you read the post, I DO address the DOD logs.

[conspiracybeliever]

Simple. Where is the evidence of these other bombs? Are you saying that people never make mistakes in high pressure situations?

On 9/11 I heard several reports that the White house and the State Department buildings were blown up. The reports were wrong. Same type of situation.
Well, in this case 6 govt agencies stated they had the defused bombs. Where are they now? Good question. Also, if they DIDN'T find bombs (which they all said they did), they killed people looking for them because they held back emergency and rescue teams DUE TO THE "EXISTANCE OF OTHER BOMBS"

. If you want to blow this off without thinking or researching it, be my guest "skeptic"... lol

[chance]

Seems to me the real problem here is not a lack of investigation nor sceptical thinking, but a lack of metaphors!


“Reds under the bed”,
“Gay’s in the closet”,
“fairies at the bottom of the garden”
Time to retire those I think, we need one for the conspiracies,

“A conspiracy behind every curtain” perhaps




“A gaggle of geese, “
“A pride of lions,”

“A plot of conspiracy theorists.” Perhaps




“A Cub is to a Lion, as a Kitten is to a cat”
“A puppy is to a dog as a hatch is to a conspiracy theorist” Perhaps

[conspiracybeliever]

You, of all people, have no room to bitch about anyone "Cherry picking" info.

ETA, and all your doing is saying "It ahd to be the gubbmint because [insert theory]".
I've been very specific on this subject. I've cherry picked nothing. No one is willing to address most of the key issues. Very typical.

[Nyarlathotep]

I've been very specific on this subject. I've cherry picked nothing. No one is willing to address most of the key issues. Very typical.


Yes, you get every bit of 'evidence' to build your case by mining the reams of info ont he subject, picking out those bits that support your preconceived notion and ignoring the rest. If that isn't cherry picking, I don't know what is.

[Manny]

Well, in this case 6 govt agencies stated they had the defused bombs. Where are they now? Good question. Also, if they DIDN'T find bombs (which they all said they did), they killed people looking for them because they held back emergency and rescue teams DUE TO THE "EXISTANCE OF OTHER BOMBS"It's a fair question. Where do you think they went? Did the OKC fire department join the conspiracy? Or did the Feds take the devices away and convince OCFD to not ask why? I met a bunch of OCFD after 9-11 -- they seemed awful nice and not the type to do something like that, but you never know people, of course.

And yes -- I believe that their errors (which is what I believe they were, for the record) may have cost lives by keeping search and rescue people away from the scene. Similarly, the poor design of NYPD and FDNY's radio system cost lives on 9-11. That doesn't make it a conspiracy, it makes it an error. And failing sufficiently to dwell on those instances doesn't make people conspirators, it makes them human.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Ah-ha! I found this, according to the Federal Charges against Timothy McVeigh he was charged with the murder of 11 Federal Agents from both the ATF and FBI, along with his other charges of using a weapon of mass destruction and other murder counts.

I will admit that there are dozens of webpages that mention that no ATF or FBI agents were killed in the blast but they do not cote any sources other than 'eyewitnesses', but the above is from a .pdf of the Charges against Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Of course you will say that the government added those cahrges as a further cover up.............

[conspiracybeliever]

These are good questions. They negate nothing.

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_bombs.htm

[Nyarlathotep]

These are good questions. They negate nothing.


The questions do indeed negate nothing. The lack of existance of these allegedly defused bombs negates the reports.

[conspiracybeliever]

Ah-ha! I found this, according to the Federal Charges against Timothy McVeigh he was charged with the murder of 11 Federal Agents from both the ATF and FBI, along with his other charges of using a weapon of mass destruction and other murder counts.

I will admit that there are dozens of webpages that mention that no ATF or FBI agents were killed in the blast, but the above is from a .pdf of the Charges against Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Of course you will say that the government added those cahrges as a further cover up.............
So give me the names of the BATF agents killed. Simple.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47320

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I wouldn't exactly cite the New American as a trusted news source, I'd like to see other data on alleged emergency radio transcripts, as of yet I have not found any additional sources.

[conspiracybeliever]

The questions do indeed negate nothing. The lack of existance of these allegedly defused bombs negates the reports.

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

But he's cherry picking the info. Why did he address that but not the most daming info in the post? How come no one has addressed it? And he doesn't refute anything. He just says, "that's impossible because [insert theory]."

And what, in your opinion, is the damning piece of info that has not been addressed?

[conspiracybeliever]

I wouldn't exactly cite the New American as a trusted news source, I'd like to see other data on alleged emergency radio transcripts, as of yet I have not found any additional sources.
That's because you are "skeptical", right? :D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, in this case 6 govt agencies stated they had the defused bombs. Where are they now? Good question. Also, if they DIDN'T find bombs (which they all said they did), they killed people looking for them because they held back emergency and rescue teams DUE TO THE "EXISTANCE OF OTHER BOMBS"

. If you want to blow this off without thinking or researching it, be my guest "skeptic"... lol

If there were bombs that were diffused, it is, iirc, SOP to destroy them afterwards.

Regardless of whether there were bombs or not, if the people directing the rescuers had reasonable suspicion that they may have been more bombs, you don't send the rescuers into that area.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

So give me the names of the BATF agents killed. Simple.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47320

Give me the names of all the agents in the building. Both of those are impossible tasks.

There is no complete list of casualties from the Murrah Building I could find, some families did not want the information on their dead relatives publicized.

How about you explain the false information and picture in your first post? I've done a lot of research that shows your initial statements are patently, 100% false.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That's because you are "skeptical", right? :D

Yeah, darn us for wanting to corraborate evidence with other sources.

[Gr8wight]

Originally Posted by Bikewer:
Two years ago, the university I work for hired a demolition company to take down one of our old high-rise dormitories. 12-story, reinforced concrete structure. It took them two months of heavy-duty drilling, jack-hammering, and so forth to prep the building for demolition. Then they had to place the large number of charges and wire them ever so carefully together for maximal effect.

This would be a process that would be likely to attract attention in a working building, I'd imagine.....

That is all true and valid, however, a professional demolition engineering organization is performing a precise imploding operation, designed to demolish a structure with no damage to nearby facilities, and for maximum demolishing affect (in order to facilitate outloading).

ANFO bombs (slow and cumbersome, but which materials are easily obtained and which is easily constructed) are a completely different explosion, and (when used against public facilities) are detonated with a completely different goal.

You have completely missed Bikewer's point. The opinion was expressed in the OP that additional explosives pre-planted inside the building would have been required in order to cause that level of damage.

[Gravy]

Gee, the U.S. sure has been busy blowing up buildings from the inside while pretending to blow them up from the outside.

Look at all that messy debris in the streets! Don't the conspirators know that cleanliness is next to wooness?

U.S. Embassy, Beirut, Lebanon (http://www.beirut-memorial.org/graphics/photos/eaftday.jpg)

Marine Barracks, Beirut Lebanon (http://poorwilliam.net/pix/beirut-bombing.jpg)

Khobar, Saudi Arabia (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0106/khobar.towers/3.khobar.towers.day.wide.2.jpg)

Colombo, Sri Lanka (http://www.sinhaya.com/explo1_lg.jpg)

Istanbul. Turkey (http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Terror/03_Terror_pics/031120.truck.bomb.jpg)

Volgodonsk, Russia (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/03/05/russia.blasts/story.volgodonsk.jpg)

Gurlanova, Russia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Gurianova1ap.jpg)

Nairobi, Kenya (http://gbgm-umc.org/africa/kenya/n4.jpg)

People, Roxdog (conspiracybeliever) is a troll who doesn't have any arguments, just links. I do feel bad for him, though. He seems to have a medical condition that prevents him from typing more than a sentence or two. Respond to him if you will, but don't expect anything more than links in return.

[Huntster]

....I have yet to find anything on ATF agents at the Murrah building, except on White Supremacy sites and CT site, I can find no actual credible news info one way or the other..............yet.

James Pate and Rick Sherrow wrote extensively about the OKC inconsistencies in "Soldier of Fortune" magazine. Their own investigations seemed to point to both FBI and ATF conducting anti-militia investigations in Oklahoma, their informants not even knowing the other agency's informants, the opposing informants actually feeding the other agency's informants with misinformation, both agencies having reasonable info that a bombing was coming down, and then (through bumbling) didn't stop it in time.

The "coverup" later wasn't to cover "G-Men" bombing their own building, but to cover up their investigative ineptitude and lack of inter-agency cooperation (especially at a time when both FBI and ATF were being scrutized for the Waco and Ruby Ridge excesses).

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Okay, I'm done looking up stuff for today, refuting three out of four points is enough to massage my ego :D

I should really get some work done!

[Huntster]

Ah-ha! I found this, according to the Federal Charges against Timothy McVeigh he was charged with the murder of 11 Federal Agents from both the ATF and FBI, along with his other charges of using a weapon of mass destruction and other murder counts.

I will admit that there are dozens of webpages that mention that no ATF or FBI agents were killed in the blast but they do not cote any sources other than 'eyewitnesses', but the above is from a .pdf of the Charges against Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Of course you will say that the government added those cahrges as a further cover up.............

Those were the "clerical", un-badged agency employees.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Those were the "clerical", un-badged agency employees.

They are still agents of those agencies. It was stated that NO ATF agents of FBI agents lost their lives. That is obviously false.

Anyhow, I'll pick it up again tomorrow.

[conspiracybeliever]

What are the BATF agents names? How hard is that?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

What are the BATF agents names? How hard is that?

What are the names of everyone killed at the Murrah Building? How hard is that? Would you please read my posts?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Never mind, I won't pick it up again tomorrow. Let me know when you've actually READ and REPLIED factually to my posts THEN I'll pick it up again.

Just like every other CT pickle brain, ignore the facts posted and only focus in on what you want.

[conspiracybeliever]

People, Roxdog (conspiracybeliever) is a troll who doesn't have any arguments, just links. I do feel bad for him, though. He seems to have a medical condition that prevents him from typing more than a sentence or two. Respond to him if you will, but don't expect anything more than links in return.
Don't forget quotes from the officals sources that contradict the facts. I posted those too. Perhaps you missed it.

Anyone wanna come on the radio to discuss this? Then I can play the clips of the Gov of OK talking about removing bombs, holding back rescue teams, etc...

The common thread in all this is that I have researched this stuff and know what Im talking and most of you simple do not.

[conspiracybeliever]

Give me the names of all the agents in the building. Both of those are impossible tasks.

There is no complete list of casualties from the Murrah Building I could find, some families did not want the information on their dead relatives publicized.

How about you explain the false information and picture in your first post? I've done a lot of research that shows your initial statements are patently, 100% false.
So it's impossible to give the name of the BATF agent that died? The family wishes would have ZERO relevence on the release of that info.

[conspiracybeliever]

Okay, I'm done looking up stuff for today, refuting three out of four points is enough to massage my ego :D

I should really get some work done!
You've refuted nothing....

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."

[J. Arthur Hastur]

So it's impossible to give the name of the BATF agent that died? The family wishes would have ZERO relevence on the release of that info.

Not true, I have found two lists of the dead at the Murrah Federal Building, and so far both of them have at least 14 -Name Withheld fields and neither of them list the Agency or comapny they worked for. If you can find a better list, let me know, I give up looking.

I also resent the facat that everytime I disprove your original statements (in post #1 of this thread) you don't explain or admit to your statements being wrong, you instead ask another question for me to prove to you.

I'm done, I've already proved that two of your points are patently wrong and that one is specious at best, now PROVE YOUR POINT TO ME.

[Nyarlathotep]

You've refuted nothing....


S'okay because you have presented nothing to refute; beyond the fact that, at one point, they THOUGHT there were more bombs, and no one is disagreeing with that point.

You on the other hand have presented nothing to show that there actually WERE more bombs.

[steve s]

The common thread in all this is that I have researched this stuff and know what Im talking and most of you simple do not.

Really? How do you address the comments I made on page 2 about the transfer beam? There's no need for explosive charges in the building. Once the transfer beam was taken out by the initial blast, there was nothing left to hold up the entire front of the building. Gravity was the culprit, not explosive charges planted in the building.

Steve S.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

You've refuted nothing....

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."


Please read my posts, I said that I could not find any transcripts like the one posted, I already conceded that as of today, I cannot find evidence that proves or disproves the above transcripts.

I did however find out that your facts and picture regarding the University of Wisconsin building were incorrect, the Murrah Building bombing used a 4,000LB ANFO bomb, whereas U of W used 2,000LB ANFO bomb.

The picture you used was of the building after reconstruction, not after the blast as you claimed.

I found that according to charges filed against Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols that they were charged with murder of 11 ATF and FBI agents.

Three out of the four points you made are either FLAT WRONG, or demonstrably specious.

[rwguinn]

......
People, Roxdog (conspiracybeliever) is a troll who doesn't have any arguments, just links. I do feel bad for him, though. He seems to have a medical condition that prevents him from typing more than a sentence or two. Respond to him if you will, but don't expect anything more than links in return.

I don't. His condition is either curable--by actually learning simething--or not.
In the first case, he is wilfully refusing treatment, and thus unworthy of sympathy.
In the second case, he is beyond our help and incapable of understanding sympathy.
So--no sympathy.

[Mojo]

Really? How do you address the comments I made on page 2 about the transfer beam? There's no need for explosive charges in the building. Once the transfer beam was taken out by the initial blast, there was nothing left to hold up the entire front of the building. Gravity was the culprit, not explosive charges planted in the building. Ah, but gravity is only a theory, not a fact. ;)

[Huntster]

...You have completely missed Bikewer's point. The opinion was expressed in the OP that additional explosives pre-planted inside the building would have been required in order to cause that level of damage.

Whoops!

Sorry.

[rwguinn]

Ah, but gravity is only a theory, not a fact. ;)

You owe me a keyboard!:dl:

[J. Arthur Hastur]

The common thread in all this is that I have researched this stuff and know what Im talking and most of you simple do not.

Let's see what YOU know:

1.) Both the U of W bomb and the Murrah Building bombs were 2,000LB ANFO Bombs - FALSE The Murrah building bomb was according to FEMA 4,000-5,000LB ANFO , the equivalent of 20,000LBS of TNT according to National Defence.

2.) The picture you showed is the U of W building after the blast, with only scorch marks - FALSE the picture you show is after reconstruction, with the destroyed delivery ramp removed and the access to the building remodeled.

3.) There were no ATF or FBI agents in the Murrah building at the time of McVeighs bombing - FALSE court papers state that 11 federal agents of the ATF and FBI DIED in the blast.

4.) Your transcripts of emergency responders from a single questionable news source - I won't even waste my time looking until you answer why your fantastic and in depth research omitted the previous and obvious errors that could be uncovered with a Google search.

You have show that you do not have any idea what you ae talking about, and merely regurgitating conspiracy theories that you've found on the web.

[Manny]

You've refuted nothing....

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:
You keep printing that. I don't think anyone has disputed that OCFD and others believed that they had found additional bombs at or around the Murrah Center. But that doesn't mean that they did find bombs.

You're correct that not knowing what happened to any alleged bombs does not mean that they don't exist. But do you realize what you're doing here? That person from OCFD. That dispatcher. That OHP officer. Those are people, Rox. And you're accusing them of treason. Of conspiracy to mass murder. And you have no evidence except a transcript which indicate that they thought the found bombs. Just like you're accusing the surviving FDNY members and everyone else who worked Ground Zero after 9-11 of conspiring in the murder of 343 of their brothers, fathers, and sons. How can you do that on such flimsy "evidence?" Do you have no regard for the humanity of these people at all?

[Manny]

3.) There were no ATF or FBI agents in the Murrah building at the time of McVeighs bombing - FALSE court papers state that 11 federal agents of the ATF and FBI DIED in the blast.For the record, according to the indictment (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/mcveighindictment.html), there were at least four Secret Service agents, one DEA agent, two Customs agents and an OIG from HUD killed in the Murrah terrorist bombing. There may be others -- the indictment covers only 160 of the people killed there that day.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

For the record, according to the indictment (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/mcveighindictment.html), there were at least four Secret Service agents, one DEA agent, two Customs agents and an OIG from HUD killed in the Murrah terrorist bombing. There may be others -- the indictment covers only 160 of the people killed there that day.

Hmm, the .pdf I found listed eleven 'federal agents' and qualified them as ATF and FBI, doesen't break down the numbers. That's why I was listing that as 'specious', because I wasn't certain.

The CT people would be easier to refute if the government wasn't so ham-fisted with documentation :P

[Huntster]

Did anyone catch the Nick Berg/Moussaoui tie when Mr. Berg lost his head?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

Some investigators contend that Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols had ties to Islamic terrorism through Ramzi Yousef, a militant who planned the 1993 WTC Bombing, and through a series of meetings with Islamic terror group Abu Sayyaf members in the Philippines.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/gregory.php?articleid=2582

The most recent, and possibly most bizarre, development in this mystery is the enigmatic pre-9/ll connection between Berg and al Qaeda. News has just broken that the FBI had investigated Berg in 2002, because his e-mail password had been found in the possession of Zacarias Moussaoui, who had been arrested shortly before September 11. According to Berg’s father, U.S. authorities determined during the investigation that Moussaoui got the password when Berg carelessly let Moussaoui use his computer after they met on a bus.
Some have theorized that perhaps this completely coincidental incident is what inspired FBI agents to question Berg while he was in Iraqi custody, but now that Berg is thought to have been detained at the FBI’s request, we have a more likely explanation for the visits.
So far, the U.S. government has shed very little light on the surreal Moussaoui coincidence.

Where did this “coincidental” exchange between Berg and Moussaoui occur?
In Oklahoma. Moussaoui was reportedly trying to hack into the University of Oklahoma system by using Berg's email.

[Huntster]

Ah-ha! I found this, according to the Federal Charges against Timothy McVeigh he was charged with the murder of 11 Federal Agents from both the ATF and FBI, along with his other charges of using a weapon of mass destruction and other murder counts.............

Link, please?

[chipmunk stew]

You keep printing that. I don't think anyone has disputed that OCFD and others believed that they had found additional bombs at or around the Murrah Center. But that doesn't mean that they did find bombs.

You're correct that not knowing what happened to any alleged bombs does not mean that they don't exist. But do you realize what you're doing here? That person from OCFD. That dispatcher. That OHP officer. Those are people, Rox. And you're accusing them of treason. Of conspiracy to mass murder. And you have no evidence except a transcript which indicate that they thought the found bombs. Just like you're accusing the surviving FDNY members and everyone else who worked Ground Zero after 9-11 of conspiring in the murder of 343 of their brothers, fathers, and sons. How can you do that on such flimsy "evidence?" Do you have no regard for the humanity of these people at all?Here are some recordings of news reports from that day that one of the Loosers had posted:
http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc.ram (http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc.ram)
http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc2.ram (http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc2.ram)

I haven't seen subsequent news stories to see whether or not these reports were retracted. With that as an unknown, I can think of at least four reasons for this story of multiple bombs:

There were more bombs planted by an inside co-conspirator, and there was a cover-up.
There were more bombs planted by McVeigh or an outside co-conspirator, but not inside the building or in an accessible part of the building, but since they were disarmed, the story receded as the news focused on the aftermath.
There were bombs or something that looked like bombs in the building for innocuous purposes (ATF evidence, or something).
There were something that looked like bombs that were destroyed as a precaution, but it turned out that they weren't bombs at all.These were just rattled off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other possibilities, too. The investigator truly interested in the truth would try to contact those law enforcement officials as well as the news organizations that reported on the multiple bombs and try to dig up the real story. He wouldn't eat up the conclusions of CT documentaries and CT websites and then accuse all sorts of people of treason.

[Gravy]

Let's take a look at what really happened at the Murrah building.

Do reports of "additional explosives found" appear in some official documents in the IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH of the bombing? Yes, they do.

"Ooh, that's damning!"
Don't get excited. The CTers leave out a few details.

"So what are those reports about?"
Bomb scares. The scares were quickly cleared and rescue work resumed. No bombs or other explosives were found.

"Then what WAS removed from the site? Lots of eyewitnesses saw things being taken away by the bomb squads."
Dummy explosives used by the BATF for training exercises, and a shoulder-mounted TOW missile launcher, still in its shipping case, with an INERT warhead and a small amount of solid propellant.

"What? A missile launcher? See, I told you those government bastards were up to something!"
Yeah, they were up to catching criminals. The missile was to be used in a "buy-and-bust" arms-purchasing sting operation. (http://www.okcbombing.org/News%20Articles/missile_murrah.htm)

I'm getting pretty sick of reading about CTers disparaging first responders who are doing exactly what they're supposed to do. Here, a typically classy CTer calls OK City police and fire dept. bomb squads "stupid."

Note that the reports of additional bombs are confirmed by the fire department. The suggestion that the bombs found in the Murrah Building were just practice bombs requires that the trained experts of the police and fire department bomb squads be too stupid to know real explosives from fake.

But it gets better. The trained experts of the police and fire department bomb squads used trained explosives sniffing dogs to locate those additional bombs, so not only did the devices found in the Murrah Building have to look enough like real bombs to fool the bomb squad, they had to SMELL LIKE REAL EXPLOSIVES TO THE BOMB SNIFFING DOGS!
Uh, yeah, that's sort of the point of practice explosives. If they didn't smell like explosives, dogs would have a pretty tough time sniffing them out, wouldn't they, Einstein?

And does this intellectual giant want us to believe that the fire department and police bomb squads should have looked at those devices and said, "Nah, don't worry about those"??? They shouldn't have ASSUMED that these could be dangerous devices and taken EVERY precaution to ensure the public's safety???

More info on the bomb scares:
A minimum of two subsequent "bomb scares" forced the evacuation of these personnel. The evacuation of the structure allowed officials to create a controlled perimeter around the dangerous site. Rescue workers were not allowed to re-enter the site until confirmation was given that no additional explosive devices were located.

1015: ODCEM Forward Operations reports a "bomb scare" at the site, resulting in the relocation of the Incident Command Post (ICP) to the southwest corner of N.W. 8th St. and Harvey Avenue.

10:28 a.m. - Rescuers find what they think is a second bomb. All rescuers are ordered to leave the building, and police clear a four-block area around the building. Police take this opportunity to establish a firm perimeter so they can allow only qualified rescuers back in the building.

11:22 a.m. - The bomb squad reports that there is no second bomb. The suspected bombs were simulators used in training.

Fiinal inspection, April 22: "The 61st Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit completes inspection of the bomb site. No additional explosive devices are found." Source (http://extras.denverpost.com/bomb/his22.htm) Source (http://www.ok.gov/oem/docs/Bombing%20After%20Action%20Report.pdf)

Here are some excerpts from the report of the Rescue Operations Chief on the site:
The first bomb scare, at approximately 10:30 a.m., gave us an opportunity to get control of the incident, and we did.

After the operational delay caused by the bomb scare at 10:30 a.m., we rotated 75 personnel in and out of the building.

We had not been back to work very long when another bomb threat evacuation was ordered. We were getting a little tired of this start-stop routine. So we went over to look at the “bomb,” which turned out to be a shoulder-carried missile that was still in its wooden box, as shipped. (With federal law enforcement agencies occupying parts of the building, it was not unusual to find weapons, etc. in the debris.) There wasn’t much to it. Most personnel vacated the building and went only across the street to the post office, awaiting the all-clear. We were out of the building for only a few minutes.

After the second bomb scare evacuation, we resumed our primary searches unimpeded throughout the afternoon and into the night. Source (http://www.mipt.org/pdf/okcfr_App_B_Part_2.pdf)

Report on OK City seismic data by the American Geophysical Union (http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/eosholzer.html)

"Second explosion" CT seismic theory debunked (http://www.monitor.net/monitor/8-19-95/blast.html) (Article contains a typo, should read 4,800 lbs, not 48,000.)

CTers "research" time: 11 years.
Gravy's "research" time: 45 minutes.

(Edited to point out that CTers have been promoting their swill since 1995, and to add AGU link. Additional "research" time: 5 minutes.)

[dissonance]

I don't see how multiple agencies referring to more bombs proves anything - for all we know, they all got their information from the same source and were simply repeating what they'd been told and thought, at the time, was trustworthy. Happens all the time in distasters. A questionable report is made, gets repeated, and eventually you've got all sorts of people confirming the event all based on one not necessarily credible report.

[chipmunk stew]

I don't see how multiple agencies referring to more bombs proves anything - for all we know, they all got their information from the same source and were simply repeating what they'd been told and thought, at the time, was trustworthy. Happens all the time in distasters. A questionable report is made, gets repeated, and eventually you've got all sorts of people confirming the event all based on one not necessarily credible report.Or miscommunicated. Remember a certain mine explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Sago_Mine_disaster#Miscommunication_and_wrong _reports) not too long ago?

(edited to add link)

[dissonance]

Exactly - I was trying to think of an example. I know there were lots of things said by the media during Katrina that later turned out to be exagerations or outright wrong, but at the time seemed to be confirmed by multiple sources.

[senorpogo]

"Research" time: 45 minutes.

45 minutes well spent. Nice work Gravy!

[Bronze Dog]

"Research" time: 45 minutes.
:clap: Encore! Encore!

[Bikewer]

I'm not familiar with the radio traffic from the concerned police units in this case, but being in the biz myself it is standard procedure to be aware of, and to check for "secondary" (and even tertiary) explosives, designed specifically to cause casualties among first responders and rescue personel.

Traffic from commanders to be aware of or to search for additional "devices" would have been standard operating procedure, and may, to the layman, have sounded like evidence that there were, in fact, such devices.

[Z]

We heard an awful lot about what was going on in OKC that day - one of my best friends was formerly in the same demo unit that McVeigh was in, and when the Murrah building went off, he was yanked - out of the field - and questioned for hours.

As it turns out, there were also about a half-dozen phone-in bomb threats after the attack, and each one had to be treated seriously.

Meanwhile, where we were (Ft. Bragg, NC), there were three minor bomb scares the same day - all of which turned out to be trainer weapons, empty casings, etc. - all in our own area.

It happens - people make mistakes. And sites like 'New American' have a terrible habit of cherry-picking data and discarding the truly relevant parts.

conspiracybeliever, you been schooled YET AGAIN.

I'd give up, Rox. You just don't know what you're talking about.

[Gravy]

A secret admirer sent me a theme song! It's a keeper.

Gravy's Theme

If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time
I'll do some straight debunkin', elucidate your crimes
lay your claims on up here, I'll knock em down in line
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

There ain't no need to fear me, if you've got it right
stack all your evidence 'gainst mine, and we'll let 'em fight
I'll be your pers'nal Ipecac, soon you'll be feelin' fine
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

Your bull will be castrated, when Gravy is around
I'll be your spark within the dark, my facts will you confound
If you run short of logic, I'll lend you some of mine
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time
How long have you been at this? I just started tryin'
You'll bid adieu to all your woo, but not without some cryin'
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

Ipecac!

[CptColumbo]

I'm sorry I don't have broadband and can't do searches very easily, and therefore have no links to anything.

I seem to remember when Bush Sr. quit the NRA, over the "Jackboot" circular they sent out, he named a few agents who died at OKC. I believe they were FBI agents, but someone who can get pages to come up faster than 20 minutes can search for it.

As far as CTs go, one should examine all the evidence and let that lead you to a conclusion. Don't have a conclusion and make the evidence fit it.

[Ducky]

In Oklahoma. Moussaoui was reportedly trying to hack into the University of Oklahoma system by using Berg's email.

1) To what end? What does the University of Oaklahoma have on its "system" that is of need to Moussaoui? What information did he need that isn't readily available to the public?

2) It's a public university. Chances are there are much easier ways to get onto the computer network than attempting to "hack an email account."

3) How exactly do you hack into a large WAN of a university by using an email account? At best it gives you access to simply an email account.

The contention is specious for two reasons:

1) Knowing a bit about computer/network security it seems implausible anyone would attempt to access information from a network such as OU by using an email account.

2) There's no need to hack anything. There is no conceivable information that isn't publicly available otherwise or easily obtained by walking to the university's library or computer lab.

[CurtC]

Ah, but gravity is only a theory, not a fact. ;)Teach the controversy! (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512)

[Huntster]

1) Originally Posted by Huntster :
In Oklahoma. Moussaoui was reportedly trying to hack into the University of Oklahoma system by using Berg's email.

To what end? What does the University of Oaklahoma have on its "system" that is of need to Moussaoui? What information did he need that isn't readily available to the public?

2) It's a public university. Chances are there are much easier ways to get onto the computer network than attempting to "hack an email account."

3) How exactly do you hack into a large WAN of a university by using an email account? At best it gives you access to simply an email account.

The contention is specious for two reasons:

1) Knowing a bit about computer/network security it seems implausible anyone would attempt to access information from a network such as OU by using an email account.

2) There's no need to hack anything. There is no conceivable information that isn't publicly available otherwise or easily obtained by walking to the university's library or computer lab.

You may be right. Note I wrote "reportedly" to hack into the university system.

But it may have been much simpler.............

Like, buy a plane ticket (http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=269) under a name that wouldn't raise flags with the FBI......

....And there are many other unanswered questions about Oklahoma City's terror ties.

Who was the man at the OU library, who purchased a ticket for the official Sep11th hijackers?

In the fall of 2001, INN Correspondent Michael P. Wright, was talking to an OU library employee who told him that she was present when an FBI agent was interviewing her colleague. From this encounter she learned that an OU library computer terminal had been used for an online purchase of an airline ticket for a 9/11 hijacker who was on the plane which crashed in Pennsylvania.....

[Ducky]

You may be right. Note I wrote "reportedly" to hack into the university system.

But it may have been much simpler.............

Like, buy a plane ticket (http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=269) under a name that wouldn't raise flags with the FBI......



Which terrorist was that purchased for, was the plane ticket for one of the 9/11 flights? Were there any indications this terminal was anything but one fo the public terminals available in the library or computer lab? Is there independant verifacation of this other than that news report?

It would seem if Moussouoi lived in Oaklahoma and needed a public computer to do work difficult to trace the university is a good choice. That someone used it isn't evidence of anyone at the university being complicit in the conspiracy. What account login was used on that machine when it was purchased? Does the University keep those records in log files on teh server?

This seems like a game of telephone casting suspicion but no real evidence of anythiing other than a computer terminal being used (reportedly) to purchase a plane ticket.

[CptColumbo]

I found a link anyway. It's Bush Sr's resignation letter to the NRA in which he names two agents who died at OKC. Steve Willis of the BATF and Al Whicher of the Secret Service.

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Books%20a ... e%20Bush's%20Letter%20to%20NRA

You won't believe some of the white supremecist garbage I had to look at to find it. Including Holocaust deniers. Ugh.

[Gravy]

Roxdog/conspiracybeliever dumped his links here and then posted this on Loose Change

Owned....

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=55243

Well, now I DO wish I wasn't banned so I could post my response above.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Mojo:
Ah, but gravity is only a theory, not a fact.
Teach the controversy! (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512)I'm reminded of Tom Lehrer's comment about giving up satire in the wake of Kissinger being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize: http://www.fstdt.com/bottom.asp?view=normal#10603

By the way, they have a new category, in case anyone hasn't seen Chipmunk Stew's thread: http://www.fstdt.com/conspiracy/

[gruk]

Gee, the U.S. sure has been busy blowing up buildings from the inside while pretending to blow them up from the outside.

Look at all that messy debris in the streets! Don't the conspirators know that cleanliness is next to wooness?

U.S. Embassy, Beirut, Lebanon (http://www.beirut-memorial.org/graphics/photos/eaftday.jpg)

Marine Barracks, Beirut Lebanon (http://poorwilliam.net/pix/beirut-bombing.jpg)

Khobar, Saudi Arabia (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0106/khobar.towers/3.khobar.towers.day.wide.2.jpg)

Colombo, Sri Lanka (http://www.sinhaya.com/explo1_lg.jpg)

Istanbul. Turkey (http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Terror/03_Terror_pics/031120.truck.bomb.jpg)

Volgodonsk, Russia (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/03/05/russia.blasts/story.volgodonsk.jpg)

Gurlanova, Russia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Gurianova1ap.jpg)

Nairobi, Kenya (http://gbgm-umc.org/africa/kenya/n4.jpg)

People, Roxdog (conspiracybeliever) is a troll who doesn't have any arguments, just links. I do feel bad for him, though. He seems to have a medical condition that prevents him from typing more than a sentence or two. Respond to him if you will, but don't expect anything more than links in return.

Here is a BBC article, with some pictures (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/february/10/newsid_2643000/2643717.stm) of the result of the 1996 bombing near South Quay in London. That was a "half-tonne" bomb (no idea what that'd be in poundage and can't say I know what explosive was used, but it was probably some sort of nitrate and petroleum job, that's what the IRA was hot for).

[Shaun from Scotland]

"Hello? Calling conspiracybeliever - u have just had your ass kicked - please respond - over?"

Bravo Gravy, bravo!

[Dragon]

I'm not familiar with the radio traffic from the concerned police units in this case, but being in the biz myself it is standard procedure to be aware of, and to check for "secondary" (and even tertiary) explosives, designed specifically to cause casualties among first responders and rescue personel.

Traffic from commanders to be aware of or to search for additional "devices" would have been standard operating procedure, and may, to the layman, have sounded like evidence that there were, in fact, such devices.Absolutely, that is the SOP in London, too. Check the area you're evacuating to, don't have the RVP for emergency services in the obvious place, search the RVP, if in doubt about an object treat it as a bomb. We do have some experience in these matters...

Hey, look at the roof on this building (http://www.leslp.gov.uk/image06.htm) - must have been blown up from the inside!

[Shaun from Scotland]

Absolutely, that is the SOP in London, too. Check the area you're evacuating to, don't have the RVP for emergency services in the obvious place, search the RVP, if in doubt about an object treat it as a bomb. We do have some experience in these matters...


Lets not count our chickens Dragon. How long will it be till we see the famous picture of the double decker blown up on 7/7 being subjected to the same "analysis" by Loose Change and the like...?

[Dragon]

Lets not count our chickens Dragon. How long will it be till we see the famous picture of the double decker blown up on 7/7 being subjected to the same "analysis" by Loose Change and the like...?Then you will see me upset ...

[Shaun from Scotland]

Then you will see me upset ...

It cant be long now....

http://www.rinf.com/conspiracies/london-bombings.html

[Manny]

Don't doubt it. I've already seen them call the USS Cole an inside job. I haven't specifically seen them address the embassy bombings or Madrid or Bali or Dhahran or any of the other suspected al Qaeda attacks. Perhaps someone should ask.

[Gravy]

Lets not count our chickens Dragon. How long will it be till we see the famous picture of the double decker blown up on 7/7 being subjected to the same "analysis" by Loose Change and the like...?
Shaun, Dragon, I hate to ruffle your feathers before tea, but there seem to be no shortage of 7/7 conspiracy theories (http://www.rinf.com/conspiracies/london-bombings.html) out there.

[CptColumbo]

Absolutely, that is the SOP in London, too. Check the area you're evacuating to, don't have the RVP for emergency services in the obvious place, search the RVP, if in doubt about an object treat it as a bomb. We do have some experience in these matters...


What does RVP stand for?

[Shaun from Scotland]

What does RVP stand for?
I think its Rendez-vous Point - Dragon is a policeman I believe so he should have the definitive answer

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I found a link anyway. It's Bush Sr's resignation letter to the NRA in which he names two agents who died at OKC. Steve Willis of the BATF and Al Whicher of the Secret Service.

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Books%20a ... e%20Bush's%20Letter%20to%20NRA

You won't believe some of the white supremecist garbage I had to look at to find it. Including Holocaust deniers. Ugh.

Good find that.

[CptColumbo]

Good find that.

And they were actual badge carriers. I knew my knowledge of obscure events would come in handy someday.

You know that whole "no ATF agents dying" thing sounds a lot like the "no jews died at the WTC." I'm not saying conspiracybeliever is anti-semitic, I'm saying the tactic would work on the street, or in a bar, because you would not have immediate access to the information.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I'll really take my hat off to you if roxdog/conspiracybeliever actually owns up to your facts, he's ignored all the other facts so far.

[CptColumbo]

I think its Rendez-vous Point - Dragon is a policeman I believe so he should have the definitive answer

Thank you. We're starting to use so many accronyms
I GALL (got a little lost).

[Gravy]

List of all OKC bombing victims, with occupations. (http://okcbombing.org/bombing_victims.htm)

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Wait I thought it was 169 killed? No matter, I never did find a complete list last night anyhow :P

[conspiracybeliever]

And they were actual badge carriers. I knew my knowledge of obscure events would come in handy someday.

You know that whole "no ATF agents dying" thing sounds a lot like the "no jews died at the WTC." I'm not saying conspiracybeliever is anti-semitic, I'm saying the tactic would work on the street, or in a bar, because you would not have immediate access to the information.
BATF Agent Steve Willis was killed at Waco, not OKC, I believe.

[CptColumbo]

List of all OKC bombing victims, with occupations. (http://okcbombing.org/bombing_victims.htm)

I'm sorry, Willis was not killed at OKC it was another case. I saw him mentioned after Whicher and thought they were connected. That was my mistake. Bush was clear about when he died just not how he died.

[kookbreaker]

Try plugging it into makeashorterlink.com

[CptColumbo]

BATF Agent Steve Willis was killed at Waco, not OKC, I believe.

I must have been writing at the same time.

[conspiracybeliever]

I must have been writing at the same time.
Interesting way you played the race card, comparing me to "anti-semites", whatever that means. I gotta remember that tactic. Oh yea, I know, you weren't comparing me to one. I know. You were just saying, right?:)

[Gravy]

Let's see what really happened at the Murrah Building (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1569591&postcount=110)

[conspiracybeliever]

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."

[LTC8K6]

These scenes are always very confused and chaotic. Incorrect reports are quite common in the commotion.

[Manny]

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:Didja read any of the explanations, chief? In particular Gravy's research?

[Shaun from Scotland]

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."


Ah the classic "Post the same mince over and over again in the hope no-one will notice I had my ass spanked on this issue a million times over" response.

Seen it before. Still as boring as ever

[CptColumbo]

Interesting way you played the race card, comparing me to "anti-semites", whatever that means. I gotta remember that tactic. Oh yea, I know, you weren't comparing me to one. I know. You were just saying, right?:)

I said you were using the same tactics. "Tell me the names of all six million who died, or they didn't."

Anyway, I know this hardly the evidence you were looking for, but...

I just called the field office in OKC, and asked a couple of questions about the bombing (to clear up some questions I had). The BATF office was in the building (I didn't know for sure). No BATF agents were killed, but they were in the building or nearby at the time. Two were in the office, and the rest were getting coffee, across the street (it was 9:03 am). One secretary was trapped under debris for some time.

The agent I spoke to admits he wasn't with the agency at the time, but has been asked enough questions about it over the years that he is familiar with the BATF's roll in that incident.

BTW it is only a resident agency (not very large) it's division is in Dallas.

You can look them up and call at:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/field/dallas/ok.htm

[Belz...]

http://www.proparanoid.net/armymath.jpg
University of Wisconson Army Math Building


But miraculously, it is capable of this.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/Roxdog/murrah2.jpg


You underestimate explosives, my friend.

[DavidJames]

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

– 10:29 a.m. "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible.... Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the S. side of the bldg immediately."

– 10:33 a.m. "Adv CP [Advise Command Post] we poss [possibly] have another device." "If it is the one on the S. side we have already gb’d [grabbed] it." "Okay." "Did you have anything further beside the one on the S. side?" "Neg [negative]."

– 10:37 a.m. "OC Fire Dept. confirms they did find a second device in the bldg." "O.K." "Cont. [contact] all troopers and have them move all civilian personnel back 1 more block."

– 2:00 p.m. "Unable to contact ATF." "Keep tring [trying] they think they have found another device. Have one of there [sic] people contact HQ48 on the northside of the bld."

• A Forces Command, Fort McPherson, Georgia, log entry for April 19, 1995 at 11:57 a.m. which states: "Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers."

• A DoD Atlantic Command memo from Norfolk, Virginia on April 20, 1995, which states: "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated."

• A Federal Emergency Management Agency Situation Report for April 20, 1995 which reads: "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated."As Manny said Gravy responded

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1569591&postcount=110

Now you get to respond, see how it works?

[Gravy]

He's too busy checking his woo rating here. (http://www.fstdt.com/conspiracy/)

[kookbreaker]

Nah, he's just too much of a sniveling intellectual coward to even try.

[Gravy]

I'll respond for him.
You people are such simpletons. All that "evidence" you presented just means that the 4 bomb squads, hundreds of rescue workers, Controlled Demolitions, Inc., and local, state and federal investigators were in on the conspiracy. Do I really have to post my links again?

p.s. Can someone be a guest on my podcast?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

You underestimate explosives, my friend.

conspiracybeliever also fudged the bomb sizes. The University of Wisconsin bomb was 2,000LB ANFO bomb, the Murrah building bomb was, according to FEMA 4,000-5,000LBS ANFO bomb, which had the destructive capacity of 20,000LBS of TNT according to globalsecurity.org.

I have pointed this out to him several times, he has yet to respond.

[Huntster]

List of all OKC bombing victims, with occupations. (http://okcbombing.org/bombing_victims.htm)

Good find.

Excuse me, but I found a number of special agents and other enforcement officers on the list, but none from either the FBI or ATF.

In fact, isn't it true that this list mentions neither office at all?

[conspiracybeliever]

I fudged nothing. You rely simply on what the govt. tells you to determine the size of the OKC ANFO bomb. Doesn't make it so. And even IF it was the size they claim, the blast damage is still inconsistant.

Also, the OK High Patrol Logs correlate with everyone else who reported bombs.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_bombs.htm

Governor Frank Keating, who states: "The reports I have is [sic] that one device was deactivated and, apparently, there’s another device; and obviously, whatever did the damage to the Murrah Building was a tremendous, very sophisticated explosive device." In another interview, terrorism expert Dr. Randall Heather says, "It was a great stroke of luck that we actually got defused bombs. It’s through the bomb material that we will be able to track down who committed this atrocity." In another report the news anchorman states:"Two other explosive devices were found that were not detonated and they were larger than the first. But there were more bombs set to go off, according to ATF officials ."


Interesting article:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick15.htm

Also, is anyone gonna post the name of the BATF agents that died in the bombing?

[Belz...]

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

You don't actually READ what people respond, do you ?

Troll.

[conspiracybeliever]

How am I a troll? I read Gravy's info. It debunks nothing.

[Manny]

Of course it does. You reported that people thought they had found bombs in the aftermath of the Murrah bombing. Gravy demonstrated that they did, in fact, think they had found bombs but that each alleged bomb had a perfectly normal explanation.

[Belz...]

How am I a troll? I read Gravy's info. It debunks nothing.

So you DIDN'T read.

[DavidJames]

You rely simply on what the govt. tells you to determine the size of the OKC ANFO bomb. Doesn't make it so.Where is your evidence which says otherwise. And even IF it was the size they claim, the blast damage is still inconsistant. show the evidence to back up this claim.

[CptColumbo]

Interesting article:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick15.htm

Also, is anyone gonna post the name of the BATF agents that died in the bombing?

The article seems to contradict what your theory is.

I posted earlier that no BATF agents died in the incident (yeah I made a mistake earlier for which I apologized), but that doesn't prove they weren't there. I'm willing to bet that there were other offices that suffered no loses, but that doesn't mean the BIA were involved. However, other Government agencies including the DEA and Secret Service lost agents. Did you read the list of people killed?

[conspiracybeliever]

We're talking about BATF. Not any other agency. Save your strawmen for another thread. The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

[conspiracybeliever]

The article seems to contradict what your theory is.
Please explain. I have refrained from posting my "theory" and have simply posted documented facts.

[DavidJames]

We're talking about BATF. Not any other agency. Save your strawmen for another thread. The BATF got warnings to stay out of work.Show your evidence for this claim

[Manny]

We're talking about BATF. Not any other agency. Save your strawmen for another thread. The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.Of course you did. The other alternative is that they got warnings to stay out of work and didn't tell anybody because, what, they forgot?

I've changed my mind, by the way. You are not arguing in good faith and you are a terrorist supporter.

[kookbreaker]

Please explain. I have refrained from posting my "theory" and have simply posted documented facts.

Claiming that buildings were blown from the insides by comparing them to buildings of different designs and hit with smaller explosives is not anything resembling a 'fact'. It is candy-a@@ speculation of the lowest, most depraved sort.

[Belz...]

We're talking about BATF. Not any other agency. Save your strawmen for another thread. The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

Of course they are, at least indirectly. If my boss tells me to NOT show to work tomorrow and the building explodes, won't I be suspicious ? Won't I have privileged information ? What if all employees were called off ?

[kookbreaker]

We're talking about BATF. Not any other agency. Save your strawmen for another thread. The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

So they stayed out of work by having coffee accross the street, where they could have easily been in the blast radius. Ri-ight.

[Gravy]

From Salon.com article
That truckloads of actual hard evidence have been produced at the McVeigh and Nichols trials impresses him very little. He spends page after page amplifying the baseless canard that ATF agents were warned against reporting to work in the Murrah Building that terrible morning. In reality, several were badly injured in the blast. That none died was purely fortuitous. Their offices lay on the side of the building opposite the bomb. A reporter for the Daily Oklahoman interviewed two ATF agents as they staggered out of the still-smoking rubble. Source (//www.salon.com/news/1997/12/23news.html)

[chipmunk stew]

Claiming that buildings were blown from the insides by comparing them to buildings of different designs and hit with smaller explosives [and showing a picture taken of it after renovation] is not anything resembling a 'fact'. It is candy-a@@ speculation of the lowest, most depraved sort....

[CptColumbo]

In case you can't click on the link:

Lucio Aleman Jr., 33
Federal Highway Administration safety coordinator

Teresa Antoinette Alexander, 33
Nurse's assistant, died while getting a Social Security card for her son

Richard Arthur Allen, 46
Social Security claims representative

Ted Leon Allen, 48
Economic development specialist for HUD

Baylee Almon,1
One of 17 children killed at America's Kids daycare center. A picture of her in a firefighter's arms won the Pulitzer Prize.

Rebecca Anderson, 37
Nurse, killed trying to rescue injured victims after the blast.

Diane Elaine Hollingsworth Althouse, 45
HUD program assistant

Pamela Denise Argo, 36
Hospital worker doing paperwork at the Social Security office

Saundra Gail "Sandy" Avery, 34
Social Security office clerk

Peter Robert Avillanoza, 56
HUD supervisor

Calvin Battle, 62, and his wife,Peola Battle, 56
Killed while visiting the Social Security office

Danielle Nicole Bell, 1
Attending daycare

Oleta Christine Biddy, 54
Social Security representative

Shelly Bland, 25
Asset forfeiture specialist for the Drug Enforcement Administration

Andrea Y. Blanton, 33
HUD clerk

Olen Burl Bloomer, 61
U.S. Department of Agriculture budget assistant

Sgt. Lola Renee Bolden, 40
Army recruiting officer

James Everette Boles, 50
Department of Agriculture administrative officer

Mark Allen Bolte, 28
Federal Highway Administration environmental specialist

Cassandra Booker, 25
Was applying for Social Security cards for her twin sons

Carol L Bowers, 53
Social Security operations supervisor

Peachlyn Bradley, 3
Died while accompanying her mother, grandmother and brother to the Social Security office. The brother, 4-month-old Gabreon Bruce, and grandmother, Cheryl Hammons, 44, a nurse's assistant, also died.

Woody Brady, 41
Self-employed book publisher, was visiting the credit union

Cynthia Lynn Campbell Brown, 26
Special agent for the U.S. Secret Service

Paul Gregory Broxterman, 42
HUD criminal investigator

Kimberly Ruth Burgess, 29
Federal Employees Credit Union administrative assistant

David Neil Burkett, 47
HUD financial analyst

Donald Earl Burns Sr.,63
HUD construction analyst

Karen Gist Carr, 32
Advertising assistant for the Army recruiting office

Michael Joe Carrillo, 44
Department of Transportation regional director

Rona Linn Chafey, 36
Drug Enforcement Agency worker

Zackary Taylor Chavez, 3
Attending daycare

Sharon Louise Wood Chesnut, 47 Social Security claims representative

Robert Chipman, 51
Was a financial analyst for the Oklahoma Water Resources Board located across the street from the federal building

Kimberly Kay Clark, 39
HUD legal assistant

Peggy Clark, 42
Department of Agriculture worker

Antonio Ansara Cooper Jr.
6 months, daycare attendee

Christopher Cooper, 2
Daycare attendee, killed with his mother, Dana LeAnne Cooper, 24, the director of America's Kids daycare center.

Harley Richard Cottingham, 46
Special agent for the Department of Defense

Kim Robin Cousins, 33
HUD program assistant

Aaron M Coverdale, 5
Daycare attendee. His brother, Elijah, 2, was also killed at the center

Jaci Rae Coyne, 1
Attending daycare

Kathy Cregan, 60
Social Security service representative

Richard Leroy Cummins, 55
Department of Agriculture senior investigator

Stephen Douglas Curry, 44
General Services Administration building inspector

Brenda Faye Daniels, 42
Teacher at daycare center

Benjamin Laranzo Davis, 29
Clerk in the U.S. Marine Corps recruiting station

Diana Lynn Day, 38
HUD housing coordinator

Peter Leslie DeMaster, 44
Special agent for the Defense Department

Castine Deveroux, 49
Program support assistant at HUD

Sheila R. Gigger Driver, 28
College student visiting the credit union

Tylor Eaves, 8 months
Attending daycare

Ashley Megan Eckles, 4
Was killed along with grandparents Luther and LaRue Treanor in the Social Security office

Susan Jane Ferrell, 37
HUD attorney

Carrol June Fields, 48
Drug Enforcement Agency office assistant

Katherine Ann Finley, 44
Federal Employees Credit Union worker.

Judy Joann Fisher, 45
HUD office clerk.

Linda L Florence, 43
Secretary at HUD

Donald Lee Fritzler, 64, and his wife Mary Anne Fritzler, 57
Killed while checking on his retirement benefits at the Social Security office

Tevin D'Aundrae Garrett, 1
Attending daycare

Laura Jane Garrison, 61
Hospital clerk, picking up retirement forms at the Social Security office

Jamie Lee Genzer, 32
Federal Employees Credit Union loan officer

Margaret Goodson, 54
Claims representative for the Social Security Administration

Kevin Lee Gottshall II, 6 months
Attending daycare

Ethel Louise Griffin, 55
Social Security service representative

Juretta Colleen Guiles, 59
HUD worker

Randolph Guzman, 28
Executive officer of the Marine Corps recruiting center

Kayla Marie Haddock, 3
Attending daycare

Ronald Vernon Harding, 55
Social Security service representative

Thomas Lynn, Hawthorne Sr., 52
Local tire company worker, killed while picking up paperwork at the Social Security office

Doris Adele Higginbottom, 44
Purchasing agent for the Department of Agriculture

Anita Hightower, 27
A secretary, was killed while at her desk in a building across the street from the Alfred P. Murrah federal building

Thompson Eugene Hodges Jr., 54
HUD supervisor

Peggy Louise Jenkins Holland, 37
Computer specialist for the U.S. Army recruiting center

Linda Coleen Housley, 53
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

George Michael Howard, 45
HUD development director

Wanda Lee Howell, 34
Daycare attendant

Robin Ann Huff, 37
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Anna Jean Hurlburt, 67, and her husband, Charles Hurlburt, 73
Both killed while checking on retirement benefits at the Social Security office

Paul Douglas Ice, 42
U.S. Customs Service special agent

Christi Yolanda Jenkins, 32
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

Norma Jean Johnson, 62
Secretary at the Department of Defense

Raymond Johnson, 59
Volunteer at the Social Security office

Larry James Jones, 46
Computer programmer with the Department of Transportation

Alvin Junior Justes, 54
Retired government employee, killed while at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Blake Ryan Kennedy, 1
Attending daycare

Carole Sue Khalil ,50
Department of Agriculture clerk

Valerie Jo Koelsch, 33
Marketing director at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Carolyn Ann Kreymborg, 57
HUD clerk

Teresa Lea Lauderdale, 41
Secretary at HUD

Catherine Mary Leinen, 47
Collection officer at HUD

Carrie Ann Lenz, 26
Legal technician at the Drug Enforcement Agency.

Donald R Leonard, 50
Special agent for the Secret Service

Lakesha Levy, 21
Who was in the U.S. Navy, died while picking up her Social Security card

Dominique London R., 2
Attending daycare

Rheta Ione Bender Long, 60
Program clerk at the Department of Agriculture

Michael Lee Loudenslager, 48
General Services Administration planner

Aurelia Donna Luster, 43, and her husband, Robert Lee Luster Jr., 45
Were killed while visiting the Social Security office

Mickey Bryant Maroney, 50
Secret Service special agent

James Kenneth Martin, 34
Civil engineer for the Department of Transportation

Gilbert Xavier Martinez, 35
Pastor, died while visiting the Social Security office

Tresia Jo Mathes-Worton, 28
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

James Anthony McCarthy, 53
HUD director

Kenneth Glenn McCullough, 36
Special agent for the Drug Enforcement Agency

Betsy Janice McGonnell, 47
HUD clerk

Linda Gail Griffin McKinney, 47
Office manager at the Secret Service office

Cartney McRaven, 19
Was at the Social Security office to report the change of her last name. She had been married four days before the blast.

Claude Arthur Medearis, 41
Senior special agent for the U.S. Customs office

Claudette Meek, 43
Federal Employees Credit Union vice president.

Frankie Ann Merrell, 23
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

Derwin Wade Miller, 27
Social Security claims representative

Eula Leigh Mitchell, 64
Was at the Social Security office filling out retirement forms

John Clayton Moss III, 50
Head of advertising for the U.S. Army recruiting office

Patricia "Trish" Ann Nix, 47
HUD financial analyst

Jerry Lee Parker, 45
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

Jill Diane Randolph, 27
Certified public accountant for the Federal Employees Credit Union

Michelle Ann Reeder, 33
Administrative assistant at the Department of Transportation

Terry Smith Rees, 41
HUD program director

Mary Leasure Rentie, 39
HUD housing specialist.

Antonio C Reyes, 55
Equal opportunity specialist for HUD

Kathy Ridley, 24
A student, was killed while visiting an office building across the street from the federal building

Trudy Rigney, 31
Worked for the Oklahoma Water Resources Board located across the street from the federal building

Claudine Ritter, 48
Collection officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Christine Nicole Rosas, 22
Receptionist at the Federal Employees Credit Union.

Sonja Lynn Sanders, 27
Federal Employees Credit Union teller.

Lanny Lee David Scroggins, 46
Accountant for the HUD office

Kathy Lynn Seidl, 39
Investigative assistant at the Secret Service office

Leora Lee Sells, 57
Secretary at the HUD office

Karan Denise Shepherd, 27
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Chase Dalton Smith, 3
Attending daycare.

Colton Smith, 2
Attending daycare.

Victoria Lee Sohn, 36
U.S. Army recruiting office worker

John Thomas Stewart, 51
HUD worker

Dolores Marie Stratton , 51
Personnel clerk at the U.S. Army recruiting office.

Emilio Tapla, 50
Picking up disability check at the Social Security office.

Victoria Jeanette Texter, 37
Worker at the Federal Employees Credit Union.

Charlotte Thomas, 43
Was a clerk at the Social Security office.

Michael George Thompson, 47
Field representative for the Social Security office

Virginia Mae Thompson, 56
Worker at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Ricky Lee Tomlin, 46
Special agent for the Department of Transportation

LaRue Ann Treanor, 55, and her husband, Luther Hartman Treanor, 61
Killed at Social Security office while checking on retirement benefits

Larry Laverne Turner, 42
Special agent for the Department of Defense

Jules Alfonso Valdez, 51
HUD program manager

John Karl Vaness III, 67
Appraiser for HUD

Johnny Allen Wade, 42
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

David Jack Walker, 54
Environmental officer for HUD

Robert Nolan Walker Jr., 52
Social Security claims representative

Wanda Lee Watkins, 49
Clerk in the U.S. Army recruiting office

Michael D. Weaver, 45
HUD attorney

Julie Marie Welch, 23
Social Security claims representative

Robert Glen Westberry, 57
Special agent at the Department of Defense

Alan Gerald Whicher, 40
Secret Service special agent

Jo Ann Whittenberg, 35
Program support assistant at HUD

Frances Ann Williams, 48
Secretary at HUD

Scott Dwain Williams, 24
Seafood salesman, was killed while making a delivery at the federal building

William Stephen Williams, 42
Operations supervisor at the Social Security office

Clarence Eugene Wilson, 49
HUD worker.

Ronota Ann Woodbridge, 31
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

John Albert Youngblood, 52
Special agent with the Department of Transportation

See if you can find out where the BATF office was in the Murrah building? I found out very easily, with access to secondary sources.

[Gravy]

conspiracybeliever/Roxdog wrote
Governor Frank Keating, who states: "The reports I have is [sic] that one device was deactivated and, apparently, there’s another device; and obviously, whatever did the damage to the Murrah Building was a tremendous, very sophisticated explosive device." In another interview, terrorism expert Dr. Randall Heather says, "It was a great stroke of luck that we actually got defused bombs. It’s through the bomb material that we will be able to track down who committed this atrocity." In another report the news anchorman states:"Two other explosive devices were found that were not detonated and they were larger than the first. But there were more bombs set to go off, according to ATF officials ."
I checked these statements out. All were said in the immediate aftermath of the bombing. As far as the speakers knew, the stetements were correct. Refer to my quotes by the experts on the scene for the whole story.

Pathetic.

[conspiracybeliever]

In case you can't click on the link:

Lucio Aleman Jr., 33
Federal Highway Administration safety coordinator

Teresa Antoinette Alexander, 33
Nurse's assistant, died while getting a Social Security card for her son

Richard Arthur Allen, 46
Social Security claims representative

Ted Leon Allen, 48
Economic development specialist for HUD

Baylee Almon,1
One of 17 children killed at America's Kids daycare center. A picture of her in a firefighter's arms won the Pulitzer Prize.

Rebecca Anderson, 37
Nurse, killed trying to rescue injured victims after the blast.

Diane Elaine Hollingsworth Althouse, 45
HUD program assistant

Pamela Denise Argo, 36
Hospital worker doing paperwork at the Social Security office

Saundra Gail "Sandy" Avery, 34
Social Security office clerk

Peter Robert Avillanoza, 56
HUD supervisor

Calvin Battle, 62, and his wife,Peola Battle, 56
Killed while visiting the Social Security office

Danielle Nicole Bell, 1
Attending daycare

Oleta Christine Biddy, 54
Social Security representative

Shelly Bland, 25
Asset forfeiture specialist for the Drug Enforcement Administration

Andrea Y. Blanton, 33
HUD clerk

Olen Burl Bloomer, 61
U.S. Department of Agriculture budget assistant

Sgt. Lola Renee Bolden, 40
Army recruiting officer

James Everette Boles, 50
Department of Agriculture administrative officer

Mark Allen Bolte, 28
Federal Highway Administration environmental specialist

Cassandra Booker, 25
Was applying for Social Security cards for her twin sons

Carol L Bowers, 53
Social Security operations supervisor

Peachlyn Bradley, 3
Died while accompanying her mother, grandmother and brother to the Social Security office. The brother, 4-month-old Gabreon Bruce, and grandmother, Cheryl Hammons, 44, a nurse's assistant, also died.

Woody Brady, 41
Self-employed book publisher, was visiting the credit union

Cynthia Lynn Campbell Brown, 26
Special agent for the U.S. Secret Service

Paul Gregory Broxterman, 42
HUD criminal investigator

Kimberly Ruth Burgess, 29
Federal Employees Credit Union administrative assistant

David Neil Burkett, 47
HUD financial analyst

Donald Earl Burns Sr.,63
HUD construction analyst

Karen Gist Carr, 32
Advertising assistant for the Army recruiting office

Michael Joe Carrillo, 44
Department of Transportation regional director

Rona Linn Chafey, 36
Drug Enforcement Agency worker

Zackary Taylor Chavez, 3
Attending daycare

Sharon Louise Wood Chesnut, 47 Social Security claims representative

Robert Chipman, 51
Was a financial analyst for the Oklahoma Water Resources Board located across the street from the federal building

Kimberly Kay Clark, 39
HUD legal assistant

Peggy Clark, 42
Department of Agriculture worker

Antonio Ansara Cooper Jr.
6 months, daycare attendee

Christopher Cooper, 2
Daycare attendee, killed with his mother, Dana LeAnne Cooper, 24, the director of America's Kids daycare center.

Harley Richard Cottingham, 46
Special agent for the Department of Defense

Kim Robin Cousins, 33
HUD program assistant

Aaron M Coverdale, 5
Daycare attendee. His brother, Elijah, 2, was also killed at the center

Jaci Rae Coyne, 1
Attending daycare

Kathy Cregan, 60
Social Security service representative

Richard Leroy Cummins, 55
Department of Agriculture senior investigator

Stephen Douglas Curry, 44
General Services Administration building inspector

Brenda Faye Daniels, 42
Teacher at daycare center

Benjamin Laranzo Davis, 29
Clerk in the U.S. Marine Corps recruiting station

Diana Lynn Day, 38
HUD housing coordinator

Peter Leslie DeMaster, 44
Special agent for the Defense Department

Castine Deveroux, 49
Program support assistant at HUD

Sheila R. Gigger Driver, 28
College student visiting the credit union

Tylor Eaves, 8 months
Attending daycare

Ashley Megan Eckles, 4
Was killed along with grandparents Luther and LaRue Treanor in the Social Security office

Susan Jane Ferrell, 37
HUD attorney

Carrol June Fields, 48
Drug Enforcement Agency office assistant

Katherine Ann Finley, 44
Federal Employees Credit Union worker.

Judy Joann Fisher, 45
HUD office clerk.

Linda L Florence, 43
Secretary at HUD

Donald Lee Fritzler, 64, and his wife Mary Anne Fritzler, 57
Killed while checking on his retirement benefits at the Social Security office

Tevin D'Aundrae Garrett, 1
Attending daycare

Laura Jane Garrison, 61
Hospital clerk, picking up retirement forms at the Social Security office

Jamie Lee Genzer, 32
Federal Employees Credit Union loan officer

Margaret Goodson, 54
Claims representative for the Social Security Administration

Kevin Lee Gottshall II, 6 months
Attending daycare

Ethel Louise Griffin, 55
Social Security service representative

Juretta Colleen Guiles, 59
HUD worker

Randolph Guzman, 28
Executive officer of the Marine Corps recruiting center

Kayla Marie Haddock, 3
Attending daycare

Ronald Vernon Harding, 55
Social Security service representative

Thomas Lynn, Hawthorne Sr., 52
Local tire company worker, killed while picking up paperwork at the Social Security office

Doris Adele Higginbottom, 44
Purchasing agent for the Department of Agriculture

Anita Hightower, 27
A secretary, was killed while at her desk in a building across the street from the Alfred P. Murrah federal building

Thompson Eugene Hodges Jr., 54
HUD supervisor

Peggy Louise Jenkins Holland, 37
Computer specialist for the U.S. Army recruiting center

Linda Coleen Housley, 53
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

George Michael Howard, 45
HUD development director

Wanda Lee Howell, 34
Daycare attendant

Robin Ann Huff, 37
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Anna Jean Hurlburt, 67, and her husband, Charles Hurlburt, 73
Both killed while checking on retirement benefits at the Social Security office

Paul Douglas Ice, 42
U.S. Customs Service special agent

Christi Yolanda Jenkins, 32
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

Norma Jean Johnson, 62
Secretary at the Department of Defense

Raymond Johnson, 59
Volunteer at the Social Security office

Larry James Jones, 46
Computer programmer with the Department of Transportation

Alvin Junior Justes, 54
Retired government employee, killed while at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Blake Ryan Kennedy, 1
Attending daycare

Carole Sue Khalil ,50
Department of Agriculture clerk

Valerie Jo Koelsch, 33
Marketing director at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Carolyn Ann Kreymborg, 57
HUD clerk

Teresa Lea Lauderdale, 41
Secretary at HUD

Catherine Mary Leinen, 47
Collection officer at HUD

Carrie Ann Lenz, 26
Legal technician at the Drug Enforcement Agency.

Donald R Leonard, 50
Special agent for the Secret Service

Lakesha Levy, 21
Who was in the U.S. Navy, died while picking up her Social Security card

Dominique London R., 2
Attending daycare

Rheta Ione Bender Long, 60
Program clerk at the Department of Agriculture

Michael Lee Loudenslager, 48
General Services Administration planner

Aurelia Donna Luster, 43, and her husband, Robert Lee Luster Jr., 45
Were killed while visiting the Social Security office

Mickey Bryant Maroney, 50
Secret Service special agent

James Kenneth Martin, 34
Civil engineer for the Department of Transportation

Gilbert Xavier Martinez, 35
Pastor, died while visiting the Social Security office

Tresia Jo Mathes-Worton, 28
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

James Anthony McCarthy, 53
HUD director

Kenneth Glenn McCullough, 36
Special agent for the Drug Enforcement Agency

Betsy Janice McGonnell, 47
HUD clerk

Linda Gail Griffin McKinney, 47
Office manager at the Secret Service office

Cartney McRaven, 19
Was at the Social Security office to report the change of her last name. She had been married four days before the blast.

Claude Arthur Medearis, 41
Senior special agent for the U.S. Customs office

Claudette Meek, 43
Federal Employees Credit Union vice president.

Frankie Ann Merrell, 23
Federal Employees Credit Union teller

Derwin Wade Miller, 27
Social Security claims representative

Eula Leigh Mitchell, 64
Was at the Social Security office filling out retirement forms

John Clayton Moss III, 50
Head of advertising for the U.S. Army recruiting office

Patricia "Trish" Ann Nix, 47
HUD financial analyst

Jerry Lee Parker, 45
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

Jill Diane Randolph, 27
Certified public accountant for the Federal Employees Credit Union

Michelle Ann Reeder, 33
Administrative assistant at the Department of Transportation

Terry Smith Rees, 41
HUD program director

Mary Leasure Rentie, 39
HUD housing specialist.

Antonio C Reyes, 55
Equal opportunity specialist for HUD

Kathy Ridley, 24
A student, was killed while visiting an office building across the street from the federal building

Trudy Rigney, 31
Worked for the Oklahoma Water Resources Board located across the street from the federal building

Claudine Ritter, 48
Collection officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Christine Nicole Rosas, 22
Receptionist at the Federal Employees Credit Union.

Sonja Lynn Sanders, 27
Federal Employees Credit Union teller.

Lanny Lee David Scroggins, 46
Accountant for the HUD office

Kathy Lynn Seidl, 39
Investigative assistant at the Secret Service office

Leora Lee Sells, 57
Secretary at the HUD office

Karan Denise Shepherd, 27
Loan officer at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Chase Dalton Smith, 3
Attending daycare.

Colton Smith, 2
Attending daycare.

Victoria Lee Sohn, 36
U.S. Army recruiting office worker

John Thomas Stewart, 51
HUD worker

Dolores Marie Stratton , 51
Personnel clerk at the U.S. Army recruiting office.

Emilio Tapla, 50
Picking up disability check at the Social Security office.

Victoria Jeanette Texter, 37
Worker at the Federal Employees Credit Union.

Charlotte Thomas, 43
Was a clerk at the Social Security office.

Michael George Thompson, 47
Field representative for the Social Security office

Virginia Mae Thompson, 56
Worker at the Federal Employees Credit Union

Ricky Lee Tomlin, 46
Special agent for the Department of Transportation

LaRue Ann Treanor, 55, and her husband, Luther Hartman Treanor, 61
Killed at Social Security office while checking on retirement benefits

Larry Laverne Turner, 42
Special agent for the Department of Defense

Jules Alfonso Valdez, 51
HUD program manager

John Karl Vaness III, 67
Appraiser for HUD

Johnny Allen Wade, 42
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

David Jack Walker, 54
Environmental officer for HUD

Robert Nolan Walker Jr., 52
Social Security claims representative

Wanda Lee Watkins, 49
Clerk in the U.S. Army recruiting office

Michael D. Weaver, 45
HUD attorney

Julie Marie Welch, 23
Social Security claims representative

Robert Glen Westberry, 57
Special agent at the Department of Defense

Alan Gerald Whicher, 40
Secret Service special agent

Jo Ann Whittenberg, 35
Program support assistant at HUD

Frances Ann Williams, 48
Secretary at HUD

Scott Dwain Williams, 24
Seafood salesman, was killed while making a delivery at the federal building

William Stephen Williams, 42
Operations supervisor at the Social Security office

Clarence Eugene Wilson, 49
HUD worker.

Ronota Ann Woodbridge, 31
Engineer for the Department of Transportation

John Albert Youngblood, 52
Special agent with the Department of Transportation

See if you can find out where the BATF office was in the Murrah building? I found out very easily, with access to secondary sources.I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at.

[conspiracybeliever]

conspiracybeliever/Roxdog wrote

I checked these statements out. All were said in the immediate aftermath of the bombing. As far as the speakers knew, the stetements were correct. Refer to my quotes by the experts on the scene for the whole story.

Pathetic.
Me quoting witnesses is pathetic? I think it's even more pathetic that you knew virtually nothing about any of this until I posted it. It's easy to say "oh, yeah, those accounts from all those different sources on the scene were....uh...mistaken...no extra bombs. Two rednecks with an inadequate explosive device did all that damage."

People died while rescue teams were held back and told they were dismantling other bombs. The tapes that allegedly caught the blast on video were confiscated and never seen again. The audio of the blast was recorded from a board meeting across the street:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
Sgt. Lola Renee Bolden, 40
Army recruiting officer
...
Cynthia Lynn Campbell Brown, 26
Special agent for the U.S. Secret Service
...
Rona Linn Chafey, 36
Drug Enforcement Agency worker
...
Harley Richard Cottingham, 46
Special agent for the Department of Defense
...
Peter Leslie DeMaster, 44
Special agent for the Defense Department
...
Randolph Guzman, 28
Executive officer of the Marine Corps recruiting center
...
Peggy Louise Jenkins Holland, 37
Computer specialist for the U.S. Army recruiting center
...
Paul Douglas Ice, 42
U.S. Customs Service special agent
...
Norma Jean Johnson, 62
Secretary at the Department of Defense
...
Donald R Leonard, 50
Special agent for the Secret Service
...
Lakesha Levy, 21
Who was in the U.S. Navy, died while picking up her Social Security card
...
Mickey Bryant Maroney, 50
Secret Service special agent
...
Kenneth Glenn McCullough, 36
Special agent for the Drug Enforcement Agency
...
Linda Gail Griffin McKinney, 47
Office manager at the Secret Service office
...
Claude Arthur Medearis, 41
Senior special agent for the U.S. Customs office
...
Larry Laverne Turner, 42
Special agent for the Department of Defense
...
Robert Glen Westberry, 57
Special agent at the Department of Defense

Alan Gerald Whicher, 40
Secret Service special agent
...
John Albert Youngblood, 52
Special agent with the Department of Transportation
...

CB,
Why warn the BATF agents and not those I highlighted above?

[conspiracybeliever]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.

Ex-congressman's aide has video of explosion?
Police raid home for evidence Nichols' attorneys say investigators never saw

Posted: February 1, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

This story appears in today's edition of the McCurtain Daily Gazette.
By J.D. Cash
© 2004 McCurtain Daily Gazette

The Fairfax County, Va., home of John Culbertson – once a member of former U.S. Rep. James Traficant's scandal-plagued congressional office – was raided Friday afternoon by Oklahoma City police detectives searching for evidence related to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

A copy of the search warrant obtained by the McCurtain Daily Gazette described the evidence sought by detectives as including any and all computer equipment, letters, correspondence, electronic mail and image files.

The raid follows a Jan. 27 closed-door meeting attended by prosecutors and defense attorneys involved with the Terry Nichols murder trial, set to begin one month from now in Oklahoma.

During the meeting, it was brought to the attention of prosecutors Culbertson could have critical evidence concerning the bombing – evidence that had not come to the attention of state or federal prosecutors.

According to the affidavit filed with the search warrant, Nichols' defense attorneys filed a motion under seal with the court and further advised prosecutors Culbertson ''may have possession of a video and/or still photographs of a Ryder truck parked in front of the Alfred P. Murrah building before the explosion and during the explosion.''

The affidavit also indicates Nichols' defense attorneys said they attempted to contact Culbertson and he was not cooperative in showing them the possible evidence.

The motion presented by defense attorneys also stated Dallas, Texas, attorney Thomas W. Mills Jr. observed and described a video and still photos that Culbertson showed him.

Oklahoma City police detective Mark R. Easley interviewed Mills at his law office after District Judge Steven Taylor recommended an investigation into the matter.

Mills said he had gone to Washington, D.C., years ago to meet with Culbertson and actually viewed the video on Aug. 26, 1998.

Mills specifically told police detectives he saw a portion of a video and possibly three still pictures that were stored on Culbertson’s laptop computer.

In an affidavit obtained by this newspaper, Detective Easley said Mills told him the images he was shown included the Murrah building in ''pristine condition.''

Mills then said, ''Mr. Culbertson pushed a button and a second photograph came up with a small glow at the bottom of the building. Mr. Culbertson pushed another button and another frame appeared of a ball of fire rising from the building and the building fell.

''Mr. Mills asked where the video and pictures came from (and) Mr. Culbertson said it came from an ATF agent.''

In the motion filed by Nichols’ defense earlier, attorney Mark Earnest explained he interviewed both Mills and Culbertson about the potential evidence. He said Culbertson told him his request for a copy of the video and photographs ''placed Culbertson in a tight spot.''

When contacted by telephone late last week, Culbertson told an Oklahoma City police detective he had turned over a copy of the evidence to the House Judiciary Committee several years ago. Asked if he still had a copy of the material, Culbertson was described as evasive – refusing to divulge that information.

Appearing July 27, 2000, before the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, the record shows Culbertson alluded to the subject of the possible existence of a videotape of the bomb blast in Oklahoma City.

Speaking as the director of the Center for Reform in Washington, D.C., Culbertson told members of the committee: ''With respect to the statements made by the Department of Justice that there are no photos or videos of the explosions of the Murrah Building, we have discovered that some indeed exist and are known to members of the law enforcement community.

''We have a short video presentation with a federal police officer describing a surveillance tape he personally witnessed at a gathering of law enforcement officers and comparing it to similar photos we have obtained in the Oklahoma City investigation, which will be presented after this opening statement, with your consent, Mr. Chairman. It is about two minutes long.

''This is a video taken April 13 of this year. It is a federal police officer describing a surveillance tape from Oklahoma City he personally witnessed and comparing it to other photos we have uncovered.''

During his appearance before the House Committee, Culbertson filed an affidavit containing statements he says were made by a federal agent who, Culbertson claimed, told him he was present at a training seminar after the bombing when the videotape was alleged to have been shown to several federal agents.

The statement included in the official record of the hearing is as follows:

''The federal police officer described two distinct explosions the locations of which are consistent with evidence uncovered in the course of investigating the attack on the Murrah Federal Building. The federal police officer also stated that the photos and video frames recovered as described above are consistent with the surveillance video that he witnessed in the training seminar. The officer’s statement as well as photos obtained in the investigation is contained in this document.''

Culbertson went on to testify: ''The Department of Justice has deprived the public of this important information as well as the courts in various jurisdictions charged with trying cases related to the bombing. This act is nothing short of callous and malicious obstruction of justice in what many might consider one of the most important cases of the 20th century.''

However, under direct examination by a member of the committee, Culbertson admitted he did not have possession of the film.

The transcript of the hearing contains this exchange between Culbertson and Rep. Jerrold Nadler of New York:

NADLER: Have you seen it?

CULBERTSON: I actually conducted the interview in Mr. Traficant’s office.

NADLER: Have you seen the tape, I asked.

CULBERTSON: The surveillance tape?

NADLER: No. You have not seen the surveillance tape. Do you have it with you today?

CULBERTSON: The videotape?

NADLER: No, the surveillance tape.

CULBERTSON: No.

NADLER: So this is a tape of an officer talking about a different tape that we cannot see?

CULBERTSON: We are attempting to get this tape. This is a tape of a police officer describing what he saw and comparing it to photographs and videotape frames that we have in our possession. There are more than one series of surveillance.

On July 30, 2002, a federal judge sentenced Culbertson's boss, James Traficant, to eight years in prison and fined him $150,000 after a jury found the Ohio Democrat guilty on 10 counts of bribery, racketeering and tax evasion.

The guilty verdict led the House to strip Traficant of his seat, making him only the second member of Congress kicked out since the Civil War. Culbertson remained on the former congressman's office staff for a short time until elections could be held to fill the vacancy.

An inventory of the items removed from the Culbertson residence has not been made public.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:yv0aGd3TclsJ:biznetdaily.com/news/article.asp%3FARTICLE_ID%3D36876+%22The+Fairfax+Co unty,+Va.,+home+of+John+Culbertson+%E2%80%93+once+ a+member+of+former+U.S.+Rep.+James+Traficant%27s+s candal-plagued+congressional+office+%E2%80%93+was+raided+ Friday+afternoon+by+Oklahoma+City+police+detective s+searching+for+evidence+related+to+the+1995+Oklah oma+City+bombing.%22+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

[DavidJames]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea. you have yet to provide evidence for this claim.

[juryjone]

I've changed my mind, by the way. You are not arguing in good faith and you are a terrorist supporter.

Claiming that buildings were blown from the insides by comparing them to buildings of different designs and hit with smaller explosives is not anything resembling a 'fact'. It is candy-a@@ speculation of the lowest, most depraved sort.


cb, you like to post the same quotes ad nauseam. I'd like to do the same with these brilliant comments. I'll bet it has the same effect on you that your repeated quotes by uninformed sources immediately after the bombing have on us - none.

[conspiracybeliever]

you have yet to provide evidence for this claim.
Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

[Huntster]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.....

Again, here's one:

The BATF and FBI were the only agencies there who had informants who had infiltrated the network of those who set off the bomb.

The "warnings" were provided by these informants, whose backgrounds may have been less than savory or convincing (especially to someone who might be as skeptical as many on this board, or to an agent who might be reluctant to shut down operations in a large federal building in the largest city of the state, only to have nothing happen).

This is the scenario painted by James Pate and Rick Sherrow. I'd provide a link, but SOF archives are available only at a fairly steep per-article price.

[BryanLower]

As a resident of Oklahoma, I find these conspiracy theories about the bombing particularly offensive. This isn't some movie. Real people were affected by this. Conspiracy theories are exploiting the pain of a lot of families.

I don't see anybody changing their view on this. CB doesn't understand the logical fallacies of his claims and the weaknesses of his "evidence", or else he doesn't care. You're playing different sports on the same pitch. Until everybody agrees on the level of proof required for a claim to be considered credible, there will be no agreement. CB's standards for proof are much lower than everybody else's.

All the same, I'm happy that some of you are examining the CT claims, because you are providing some good information that could be useful in a real debate.

[CptColumbo]

So they were looking for a tape of another guy decribing what he saw on a tape.

Could the still photos have been altered in any way? Could the photos have been taken the day the rest of the building was demolished (from the side opposite the blast)? Pictures say a thousand words, unless they are taken out of context.

[kookbreaker]

I don't see anybody changing their view on this.

I don't either. My plan is not to try and change his mind, but to show anyone who might be 'on the fence' with this issue just how foolish and seperated from reality these claims can be. Roxdog is emotionally, and perhaps financially attached to these conspiracies, so for him they must be true. He will evade hard questions, and dance around major sticking points (like, you know, McVeigh admitting he did it) to keep the ideas alive.

[DavidJames]

Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.htmlCan you point me to approximately where in this audio the claim is made?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.



http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:yv0aGd3TclsJ:biznetdaily.com/news/article.asp%3FARTICLE_ID%3D36876+%22The+Fairfax+Co unty,+Va.,+home+of+John+Culbertson+%E2%80%93+once+ a+member+of+former+U.S.+Rep.+James+Traficant%27s+s candal-plagued+congressional+office+%E2%80%93+was+raided+ Friday+afternoon+by+Oklahoma+City+police+detective s+searching+for+evidence+related+to+the+1995+Oklah oma+City+bombing.%22+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

You asked "I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at." and I answered with what I believe to have been the post's intent. If you want to use that as another excuse to not have to answer direct questions or deal with presented evidence, be my guest.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

conspiracybeliever also fudged the bomb sizes. The University of Wisconsin bomb was 2,000LB ANFO bomb, the Murrah building bomb was, according to FEMA 4,000-5,000LBS ANFO bomb, which had the destructive capacity of 20,000LBS of TNT according to globalsecurity.org.

I have pointed this out to him several times, he has yet to respond.

I'm still waiting to find out why conspiracybelievers info from the very first post in this thread is patently wrong.

The additional conspiracy theories only hold weight if we accept the erroneous information from CB's original post. The whole conspiracy is based around his asertion that the Murrah building bomb was not powerful enough to damage the Murrah building and that the ATF and FBI conspired to blow up the building from the inside.

However the bomb planted by McVeigh exploded with the force of 20,000LBS of TNT, more than enough to cause signifigant structural damage to the building, much like we see in the pictures.

If CB can't explain why his orginal facts are correct, then the follow up facts don't amount to proof of anything.

[conspiracybeliever]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

[conspiracybeliever]

You asked "I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at." and I answered with what I believe to have been the post's intent. If you want to use that as another excuse to not have to answer direct questions or deal with presented evidence, be my guest.
My assertion was in regards to the BATF and nothing else.

[rwguinn]

:hit: I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?
Half a building isn't a big enough crater? Finding the axle of the truck several blocks away isn't an indicator of the size of the bang? If you keep moving those goalposts, we'll end up in Mexico or Canada...soon
:hit:

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I fudged nothing. You rely simply on what the govt. tells you to determine the size of the OKC ANFO bomb. Doesn't make it so. And even IF it was the size they claim, the blast damage is still inconsistant.

Also, the OK High Patrol Logs correlate with everyone else who reported bombs.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_bombs.htm




Interesting article:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick15.htm

Also, is anyone gonna post the name of the BATF agents that died in the bombing?


Uhm, globalsecurity.org is not a governmental agency, it a news site that focues on events having to do with global secirity and military technology, it is much more credible than the white supremacist sites you post.

IF they say 5,000LBS of ANFO explodes with the force of 20,000LBS of TNT, I believe it, because they research it. They have a whole section devoted to explosives and ordinance.

[DavidJames]

Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.htmlSo the evidence is 2nd hand hearsay. Sorry, you will need to do better. One claims that agents received messages on their pagers. Such messages are stored on servers and can be retrieved, but shockingly, no genuine evidence has actually been found. You can continue making this claim, but so far, you have not provided any evidence other then man in the street comments.

[senorpogo]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

Translation - You've handed it to me on all the other arguments I've made, so once again I'll find some seeming inconsistency to harp on.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

If you would read up on explosives, many above ground detonations do not leave craters. It all depends on how the explosive energy is directed. A Ryder truck, for instance, has the floor of the loading area as it's strongest pint, the weakest is the opaque fiberglass ceiling which is thin enough to allow light in. The deck of the Ryder truck ( and most hauling trucks) is steel with an overlay of wood, the energy of the blast from the ANFO bomb would have been dfirected up and out the sides mostly, destroying the bed, damaging the ground, but the main blast energy would have been directed out the weakest parts of the truck, not down to form a crater.

The FBI initially reported that McVeigh's bomb was 7,000-8,000LBS

FEMA, several months after the full investigation had ended put the ofical weight at 4,000-5,000LBS , Timothy Mc Veigh procured enough materials to make an estimated 5,000LB bomb, so it is highly unlikely that it would have been bigger tan that.

The government's size estimations, in fact, went down. In fact, fact. Fact. A word that you seem to have trouble with.

[Gravy]

Me quoting witnesses is pathetic? I think it's even more pathetic that you knew virtually nothing about any of this until I posted it. It's easy to say "oh, yeah, those accounts from all those different sources on the scene were....uh...mistaken...no extra bombs. Two rednecks with an inadequate explosive device did all that damage."

People died while rescue teams were held back and told they were dismantling other bombs. The tapes that allegedly caught the blast on video were confiscated and never seen again. The audio of the blast was recorded from a board meeting across the street:
http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

Notice how he can't name a single person who agrees with him who actually did the work in the building: fire, police, search & rescue, medics, 4 different bomb squads. That's because there ARE none who agree with him. He either hasn't read my post with the quotes from the people on the scene, or he doesn't understand it.

This is EXACTLY what he does with the reports from the WTC.

It's a special kind of person who can be shown to be wrong again and again and again, and still claim that he's right. And he mentions that I knew virtually nothing about this until he mentioned it. He's correct, just as I didn't know that there were people out there who are so stupid that they think planes didn't hit the WTC towers, until a link at JREF pointed me to Loose Change a couple of weeks ago.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Bomb size does not equal crater size. Most nuclear devices leave very little crater as they detonated a mile above ground. A 1,000LB HE bomb will leave a 30ft crater while a 1,000LB cluster bomb will leave no crater.

Before you spout off about bomb craters and blast damage do a little research, please

[CptColumbo]

You're right in the sense that I had forgotten much aobut the OKC bombing, since for me the case was closed, and over 10 years have passed. Having read your posts and searched for independent verification of some of your claims, I find your evidence circumstantial, unverifiable, easily explained, or in the realm of hearsay. You question most the evidence that is contrary to your theory (and it is a theory) or ignore it, yet get upset when we question you evidence. Did you apply the same scrutiny to your supporting evidence when you first heard it, or was it just easier to accept that the gov't was behind it instead of a few people? If I had time to devote to this subject, I'm willing to bet I could find articles that contradict your theory and the government's case. Does that make them true or fact, just because someone wrote it down? No. It is just another theory. The theory I believe is, I think, the most plausible, because it is supported by the majority of the evidence.

I used to enjoy conspiracies, because they caused me to research, study a subject, and provided another point of view on an event. However, I kept in mind that seeing other possible scenarios in an event didn't make the most plausible untrue, they were just usually more dramatic.

You've failed to convince me even slightly, and probably never will. Especially if you cannot provide better and credible evidence that not only supports your claim, but contradicts the best explanation of what happened.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

The specific cratering effects of ANFO:

The cratering performance of the 260 1b ANFO shots were compared to that of the TNT control shots: The ANFO crater radius was 7% smaller than that for TNT, its depth 9% greater, and its volume about 20% less. In light of the caliche material located about 1.5 ft below the surface, these comparisons were considered satisfactory.


20% less crater volume than TNT, blown over a wider are.

[Gravy]

As a resident of Oklahoma, I find these conspiracy theories about the bombing particularly offensive. This isn't some movie. Real people were affected by this. Conspiracy theories are exploiting the pain of a lot of families

That's exactly how I feel about how this guy and his pals deal with 9/11. It's one thing to have a plausible conspiracy theory that proves more plausible as new evidence comes in. But to push one that gets progressively more implausible, while not doing the slightest bit of fact checking, and when the issue really matters to so many people? That's disgusting. As I said in another post, these people sit in front of their computers and drool over disaster porn, and call that "research." Once the "darndest things" site gets fleshed out with more quotes, it'll give visitors a good idea of just how foolish and nasty these people are. I doubt if any but die-hards follow these threads at any length.

I've spent a good bit of time in Oklahoma, from the southeast all the way through the panhandle, and loved it. OK/NYC (http://static.flickr.com/51/121196767_8a0d1114e2.jpg?v=0)

[Belz...]

I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at.

Didn't you want the list of people killed ?

[Gravy]

you have yet to provide evidence for this claim.

BATF agents didn't receive warnings to stay out of the building. Several of them were seriously injured in their office at the rear of the building.

[Belz...]

People died while rescue teams were held back and told they were dismantling other bombs.

What part of them saying that, in fact, there WEREN'T any bombs didn't you get ?

[strathmeyer]

That's because you are "skeptical", right? :D

No, it's because we can tell when people have just made stuff up.

[juryjone]

I've changed my mind, by the way. You are not arguing in good faith and you are a terrorist supporter.

Claiming that buildings were blown from the insides by comparing them to buildings of different designs and hit with smaller explosives is not anything resembling a 'fact'. It is candy-a@@ speculation of the lowest, most depraved sort.

Nothing new here, just these quotes again. No new facts. Just an argumentative technique I learned from conspiracybeliever.

[Hellbound]

Just wanted to make a case in point about the lack of a crater...

Anyone remember the Mythbuster's episode with the cement truck? When they set off something on the order of 5,000 lbs of explosives in it? Took about .001 seconds for there to be no truck left. No crater. IN fact, not even a scorch mark, really. Within a few weeks, you wouldn't be able to tell anything went off there.

Explosive blasts are fluid, to a degree. The force will follow the path of least resistence, preferentially. Take a fire-cracker. Light it. Place it on top of an empty soda can. Doesn't do much. Place the same firecracker inside the can. Set it off. Observe the results.

The ground is a lot stronger then the building. The ground (and the chassis of the truck) actually redirected parts of the force upwards, back at the objects around the sides (such as the building). The ground can withstand a 10,000 force acting on it pretty easily. Very few buildings are designed to withstand such a force when it's applied laterally.

You need to quit getting your information on explosives from Rambo movies and prime-time TV. I've worked with explosives of all sorts (from C-4 to C-B, from black powder to TNT, from ANFO to AN-AL, from anti-personnel mines to anti-tank mines, from 1lb. shaped charges to 10,000 lbs. mass charges, and from mortar rounds to missiles). I've seen real explosives detonated, and been involved in doing the detonating. I've been present when tons (literal tons) of explosives where detonated in the destruction of material from Iraqi ammunition depots. You have no knowledge of the subject on which you pontificate.

The less one has to say, the louder and more often they seem to say it.

[Bronze Dog]

The less one has to say, the louder and more often they seem to say it.
That kind of follows with part of my sig.

[Hellbound]

That kind of follows with part of my sig.

'Tis a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

:D

I was actually in that play (I was MacDuff, got to cut off MacBeth's head at the end).

[Nyarlathotep]

Just wanted to make a case in point about the lack of a crater...

Anyone remember the Mythbuster's episode with the cement truck? When they set off something on the order of 5,000 lbs of explosives in it? Took about .001 seconds for there to be no truck left. No crater. IN fact, not even a scorch mark, really. Within a few weeks, you wouldn't be able to tell anything went off there.

Explosive blasts are fluid, to a degree. The force will follow the path of least resistence, preferentially. Take a fire-cracker. Light it. Place it on top of an empty soda can. Doesn't do much. Place the same firecracker inside the can. Set it off. Observe the results.

The ground is a lot stronger then the building. The ground (and the chassis of the truck) actually redirected parts of the force upwards, back at the objects around the sides (such as the building). The ground can withstand a 10,000 force acting on it pretty easily. Very few buildings are designed to withstand such a force when it's applied laterally.

You need to quit getting your information on explosives from Rambo movies and prime-time TV. I've worked with explosives of all sorts (from C-4 to C-B, from black powder to TNT, from ANFO to AN-AL, from anti-personnel mines to anti-tank mines, from 1lb. shaped charges to 10,000 lbs. mass charges, and from mortar rounds to missiles). I've seen real explosives detonated, and been involved in doing the detonating. I've been present when tons (literal tons) of explosives where detonated in the destruction of material from Iraqi ammunition depots. You have no knowledge of the subject on which you pontificate.

The less one has to say, the louder and more often they seem to say it.

Yeah, but how do we know you aren't a gubbmint disinformation plant, huh, HUH?!?!?!?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Ammonium Nitrate is a cratering charge. But just because it is called a cratering charge does not automatically mean it will produce a huge crater. When I was in the service we used ammonium nitrate to create craters.

(Like Huntsman said) an explosive will take the path of least resistance. To make a crater with it we first would use a shape charge to “cut” a hole into the road. Then insert the cratering charge into the hole and bury it. Then it would make a nice crater. Blowing it up on the surface had little or no effect.

LLH

[Hellbound]

Yeah, but how do we know you aren't a gubbmint disinformation plant, huh, HUH?!?!?!?

Of course I'm not a plant! Why would you think that?

By the way, can you move a bit to your right? You aren't quite visible through the window...

:D

[steve s]

And even IF it was the size they claim, the blast damage is still inconsistant.

You didn't read my earlier post on page 2 about the transfer beam. The blast only had to be big enough to take out that beam. Without the beam the entire front half of the building was unsupported and collapsed under its own weight.

I made the pic below to show what the front of the building looked like. Is it really so difficult to understand that without that beam there's absolutely nothing to support the front half of the building? Is your brain not capable of understanding that?

http://www.photochimps.com/gallery/data/604/murrah.jpg

Steve S.

[WildCat]

I made the pic below to show what the front of the building looked like. Is it really so difficult to understand that without that beam there's absolutely nothing to support the front half of the building? Is your brain not capable of understanding that?
I guarantee you that Roxdog's brain is both unwilling and unable to comprehend that.

[steve s]

Also, the OK High Patrol Logs correlate with everyone else who reported bombs.


During the Sago Mine disaster, every news source in America reported that all the miners had survived. Guess what? They were all wrong!!!!!! Apparently you're not familiar with the term "mass confusion."

Steve S.

[Manny]

Is it really so difficult to understand that without that beam there's absolutely nothing to support the front half of the building? Is your brain not capable of understanding that?Heh. Between this and all the, uh, analysis of the collapses of 1, 2 and 7 WTC I'm becoming convinced that these people think there's a generic thing called a "building" and that's that. No differences among concrete and steel and glass, no difference between beam and post and column/spandril, no understanding of trusses or connection methods or other load tranfer technologies, nothing. Just "building."

I used to mourn that these kids will be paying my social security. Now I'm convinced they'll get out of it by designing my retirement home.


ETA: Sweet illustration. It'll go unacknowledged by the CTers but maybe you can use it with some grade-schoolers someday. ;)

[Huntster]

BATF agents didn't receive warnings to stay out of the building. Several of them were seriously injured in their office at the rear of the building.

Did you have a link on that information?

[steve s]

I'm becoming convinced that these people think there's a generic thing called a "building" and that's that. No differences among concrete and steel and glass, no difference between beam and post and column/spandril, no understanding of trusses or connection methods or other load tranfer technologies, nothing. Just "building."

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

This would have been the perfect building for the conspiracy nuts; flawed right from the drawing board. No need for pre-planted explosive charges. Hopefully they'll never get to sink their teeth into this one.


ETA: Sweet illustration. It'll go unacknowledged by the CTers but maybe you can use it with some grade-schoolers someday. ;)

Thanks. I whipped it up in Bryce.

Steve S.

[steve s]

The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

You're always telling us to give the names of people. Now it's your turn. Name the people who gave out the warnings.

Did they do it by e-mail? Then you should have no trouble tracking down that e-mail. Nothing on the net is ever really deleted.

Did they do it by phone? Then there should be phone records.

Let's see some evidence.

Steve S.

[CptColumbo]

Did you have a link on that information?

I provided a link that can put you in contact with the BATF themselves, and you can ask them.

[chipmunk stew]

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

This would have been the perfect building for the conspiracy nuts; flawed right from the drawing board. No need for pre-planted explosive charges. Hopefully they'll never get to sink their teeth into this one.:eek: I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.

[Bronze Dog]

:eek: I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.
Think I've seen pictures of it. Kind of like that one artist who built an installation with a grand piano hanging from the ceiling upside-down. The latter knowingly made people uncomfortable. The former is probably an even bigger sadist.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by conspiracybeliever :
The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.
You're always telling us to give the names of people. Now it's your turn. Name the people who gave out the warnings.....

Carol Howe.

[DavidJames]

Carol Howe.
Who is she? What evidece do you that she gave out the warning?

[WildCat]

Carol Howe.
She's a nut (http://www.cnn.com/US/9705/27/mcveigh/index.html#3):

Howe was a paid informant for the ATF for more than two years who reportedly said she warned federal authorities four months before the Oklahoma City explosion that 15 U.S. cities would be bombed.
Government sources have questioned her credibility, and Howe is under indictment in a separate case in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for alleged bomb threats and possession of a destructive device.

You've GOT to be kidding...

[chipmunk stew]

Carol Howe.Carol Howe was an informant for ATF who had infiltrated a militant white supremacist group. She told ATF of the attitudes and general plans of the group (which included actions against the gov't, including bombings) but you'll have to provide some evidence if you're going to make the claim that she warned them specifically of the attack on the Murrah building on that day.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Gravy :
BATF agents didn't receive warnings to stay out of the building. Several of them were seriously injured in their office at the rear of the building.

Did you have a link on that information?

I provided a link that can put you in contact with the BATF themselves, and you can ask them.

...I just called the field office in OKC, and asked a couple of questions about the bombing (to clear up some questions I had). The BATF office was in the building (I didn't know for sure). No BATF agents were killed, but they were in the building or nearby at the time. Two were in the office, and the rest were getting coffee, across the street (it was 9:03 am). One secretary was trapped under debris for some time.

The agent I spoke to admits he wasn't with the agency at the time, but has been asked enough questions about it over the years that he is familiar with the BATF's roll in that incident....

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Carol Howe.
She's a nut:

Howe was a paid informant for the ATF for more than two years who reportedly said she warned federal authorities four months before the Oklahoma City explosion that 15 U.S. cities would be bombed.
Government sources have questioned her credibility, and Howe is under indictment in a separate case in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for alleged bomb threats and possession of a destructive device.

You've GOT to be kidding......

That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?

[DavidJames]

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?Are you able to type paragraphs? It would help if you laid out what you are trying to say or help with answers you are trying to obtain.

[WildCat]

That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?
Huntster, when you rectuit informants you must deal w/ despicable slime, as these are the people who are in the groups you are trying to get info about. In this case, it was white supremacists. Many paid informants turn out wrong, as in this case. Not the person you want to hang your whole theory on, is it?

[Johnny Pixels]

Can we get some kind of goverment grant to round up conspiracy theorists and teach them the basic science and critical thinking skills they lack? It'd be a bit like an interactive Mythbusters I guess. Take them out on a range and blow some stuff up to show them how explosives work. Show them how buildings are put together. Give them a crash course on image compression. And do it all at Area 51 to show them there are no UFOs there.

I guess they'd just wake up in the morning and convince themselves they'd been kidnapped and brainwashed by the government though.

[CptColumbo]

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?

No, because I hadn't read anything to do with her at the time.

One article by Bob Hall I read about Carol Howe at www.totse.com/EN/conspiracy/howeatf.html
Mentions she was Howe's handler, however doesn't seem to support the belief that Howe knew about the bombing to the extent that she could have warned the right office ahead of time. According to this article 15 cities were being targeted by the group she had infiltrated (this is according to her), and would be using pipe bombs.

It further said

The problem with the stories Mr. Cash produced is that some of the basic facts are in dispute. But his account has spread so far and wide that no matter what Ms. Howe tells the news media now, she will likely be dogged with the same bottom line, "you didn't actually give the ATF or anyone else, specific threat information before the Oklahoma City bombing."

and later

The point the news media has missed is this. It's not that Carol Howe ever gave the feds a clear, direct and specific threat report involving a bombing in Oklahoma City. She gave them everything they needed to start rounding up the people who were behind it.

The article seemed to have been written by someone who had first-hand knowledge of her trial (she was acquitted).

Most employers (government or otherwise) will not disclose personal information about employees, so I doubt if you asked about her specifically if they would give you any information.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?

Huntster, when you rectuit informants you must deal w/ despicable slime, as these are the people who are in the groups you are trying to get info about. In this case, it was white supremacists. Many paid informants turn out wrong, as in this case.

I'm sorry, but if Carol Howe informed SA Finley of the group's intention to bomb federal buildings, she wasn't wrong, was she?

...Not the person you want to hang your whole theory on, is it?...

Yet, again, that is my point.

Somebody within the field office decided not to.

BOOM!

Now, what do you do?

[Huntster]

Very good investigative work, Captain.

....Mentions she was Howe's handler, however doesn't seem to support the belief that Howe knew about the bombing to the extent that she could have warned the right office ahead of time. According to this article 15 cities were being targeted by the group she had infiltrated (this is according to her), and would be using pipe bombs...

That was pretty much my understanding of the situation.

...It further said

The problem with the stories Mr. Cash produced is that some of the basic facts are in dispute. But his account has spread so far and wide that no matter what Ms. Howe tells the news media now, she will likely be dogged with the same bottom line, "you didn't actually give the ATF or anyone else, specific threat information before the Oklahoma City bombing."

Again, I agree (and I note that's probably what would be written here on this thread by many).


...and later


The point the news media has missed is this. It's not that Carol Howe ever gave the feds a clear, direct and specific threat report involving a bombing in Oklahoma City. She gave them everything they needed to start rounding up the people who were behind it.

Take this fact a bit further:

Some who were involved were never arrested, never tried, and got away with mass murder.

The article seemed to have been written by someone who had first-hand knowledge of her trial (she was aquitted).

Again, that was my understanding of the situation.

[Ducky]

Which terrorist was that purchased for, was the plane ticket for one of the 9/11 flights? Were there any indications this terminal was anything but one fo the public terminals available in the library or computer lab? Is there independant verifacation of this other than that news report?

It would seem if Moussouoi lived in Oaklahoma and needed a public computer to do work difficult to trace the university is a good choice. That someone used it isn't evidence of anyone at the university being complicit in the conspiracy. What account login was used on that machine when it was purchased? Does the University keep those records in log files on teh server?

This seems like a game of telephone casting suspicion but no real evidence of anythiing other than a computer terminal being used (reportedly) to purchase a plane ticket.



Still waiting for a response to this Huntster.

[ImaginalDisc]

I'm sorry, but if Carol Howe informed SA Finley of the group's intention to bomb federal buildings, she wasn't wrong, was she?



Yet, again, that is my point.

Somebody within the field office decided not to.

BOOM!

Now, what do you do?
Do you have any idea how often these people claim they'll blow up building X, Y or Z? They get these tips constantly. The trouble is sorting out the credible ones.

[Manny]

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

:eek: I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.

Citycorp Center. (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=114152) Yeah, that's about number four on the "who's Osama gonna try to hit next" hit parade here in the city, building-wise.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by fowlsound :
Which terrorist was that purchased for, was the plane ticket for one of the 9/11 flights? Were there any indications this terminal was anything but one fo the public terminals available in the library or computer lab? Is there independant verifacation of this other than that news report?

It would seem if Moussouoi lived in Oaklahoma and needed a public computer to do work difficult to trace the university is a good choice. That someone used it isn't evidence of anyone at the university being complicit in the conspiracy. What account login was used on that machine when it was purchased? Does the University keep those records in log files on teh server?

This seems like a game of telephone casting suspicion but no real evidence of anythiing other than a computer terminal being used (reportedly) to purchase a plane ticket. Still waiting for a response to this Huntster.

I'm not a federal investigator involved in the 9/11 events, so I don't know.

...Is there independant verifacation of this other than that news report?...

Again, I don't know. There were plenty of reports in various newspapers about Moussaoui using Berg's laptop. I assume it was a newswire story.

I was struck by the "coincidences" of Moussaoui using Berg's laptop in Oklahoma, then Berg getting his head sawed off in Baghdad later, and I've always been wondering about why the federal investigation pooh-poohed all links to foreign nationals reportedly involved in the OKC bombing (especially Andreas Strassmeir).

Would you lend your laptop to a stranger like Moussaoui?

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I'm sorry, but if Carol Howe informed SA Finley of the group's intention to bomb federal buildings, she wasn't wrong, was she?



Yet, again, that is my point.

Somebody within the field office decided not to.

BOOM!

Now, what do you do?

Do you have any idea how often these people claim they'll blow up building X, Y or Z?....

Yes, I do.

...The trouble is sorting out the credible ones...

Correct.

And do you know what many agencies do when they get it wrong, people die, and it becomes a national story (especially when that agency is already in "hot water")?

[Ducky]

I'm not a federal investigator involved in the 9/11 events, so I don't know.

Yet you're confident enough in your information to put forth the idea that Oaklahoma City an 9/11 are connected?

Again, I don't know. There were plenty of reports in various newspapers about Moussaoui using Berg's laptop. I assume it was a newswire story.

What newspapers? What reports? Give me a cite or I am forced to assume you're passing along urban legend.

I was struck by the "coincidences" of Moussaoui using Berg's laptop in Oklahoma, then Berg getting his head sawed off in Baghdad later, and I've always been wondering about why the federal investigation pooh-poohed all links to foreign nationals reportedly involved in the OKC bombing (especially Andreas Strassmeir).

You are struck by coincidences you can't verify are true? What foreign nationals are reported to be involved in OKC? Who reported this, and can we verify? It seems like you would take an awful lot on faith here just to hold on to a conspiracy theory.

Would you lend your laptop to a stranger like Moussaoui?

Irrelevant. I have yet to see actual evidence that Berg did lend his laptop. What I do see is alot of speculation and innuendo, but no substance.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I'm not a federal investigator involved in the 9/11 events, so I don't know.

Yet you're confident enough in your information to put forth the idea that Oaklahoma City an 9/11 are connected?....

Before I begin, I must suspect your post. It's clear that you don't like me, and I don't think I like you much. I think you're just poking.

That said, I'm confident enough that there is plenty of information published to make me very, very suspicious that there is more to the OKC bombing than just Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

Before I post these links, I suggest that you Google up this information with the keywords BERG - MOUSSAOUI - LAPTOP.

I was certain you could do this. After all, you have professed being a pretty smart bird (fowl?). Now I'm forced to wonder if you truly are, or are you just screwing with me.

How about NewsMax? (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/141347.shtml):

...Was executed American contractor Nicholas Berg's decision to share his computer password with alleged "20th hijacker" Zacarias Moussaoui during a 1999 encounter in Norman, Okla., just a coincidence, as Attorney General John Ashcroft assured the nation last week?
Or was there more to this bizarre development than meets the eye?
Oklahoma City bombing investigator, former NBC reporter Jayna Davis, has been exploring some of the more troubling aspects of the Berg-Moussaoui meeting, especially in light of the role the city of Norman played in events leading up to 9/11....

Will CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/) do?:

...WEST CHESTER, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- When Nicholas Berg took an Oklahoma bus to a remote college campus a few years ago, the American recently beheaded by terrorists allowed a man with terrorist connections to use his laptop computer, according to his father....

I emboldened key words for those who have reading or comprehension problems.

...What newspapers? What reports? Give me a cite or I am forced to assume you're passing along urban legend....

Is that enough to get you started on your education (including a short lesson on Googling), or must I perform a complete investigation for you?

...You are struck by coincidences you can't verify are true?....

Yes.

A common trait of coverups is the difficulty of verifying the truth.

... What foreign nationals are reported to be involved in OKC?...

Andreas Strassmeir, commonly believed by many to be "John Doe II".

...Who reported this, and can we verify?...

Again, I first learned of "Andy" Strassmeir from James Pate's and Rick Sherrow's reporting in Soldier of Fortune magazine. Their work can only be verified by buying their past articles from SOF (http://www.sofmag.com/home.do).

But there is plenty of info (http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh5.html) on Andy.

Use the keywords ANDREAS - STRASSMEIR in a Google search. (After you get the hang of that Google stuff, you may learn a lot).

...It seems like you would take an awful lot on faith here just to hold on to a conspiracy theory....

I'm not taking anything on faith, and I'm not holding on to "a" conspiracy theory. I'm keeping my eyes and ears open, and when new information is revealed (like the Berg-Moussaoui connection), I pay attention.

Try it sometime, instead of denying all possibilities.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Would you lend your laptop to a stranger like Moussaoui?


Irrelevant....

Gee, foul; may I borrow your laptop?

...I have yet to see actual evidence that Berg did lend his laptop. What I do see is alot of speculation and innuendo, but no substance.

Okay. Read up, perform some basic research, then formulate your next series of "skeptical" questions.

[Huntster]

CB,
Why warn the BATF agents and not those I highlighted above?

Because you're an ATF informant, not an informant for Customs, DoD, or the Secret Service.

[CptColumbo]

Because you're an ATF informant, not an informant for Customs, DoD, or the Secret Service.

I think the point was (this was before someone theorized it was a specific informant) why wouldn't the DoJ report this fact to the other agencies, including those under it's jurisdiction (DEA). I assume they all had phones.

It still has yet to be proven that the BATF didn't show up for work that day. There is circumstatial evidence to prove they did, as others have posted above. It is by no means irrifutable, but given the circumstances it's the best that can be hoped for. If there was a timeclock, it was probably destroyed, if there was a sign-in sheet for Bucars it was probaly lost. As I wrote before, the BATF offices were on the other side of the building from the explosion, so the chances of survival were greater. Just because no BATF agents died doesn't mean they were part of a conspiracy. No one from the Bureau of Indian Affairs died either. I don't expect anyone who survived that event to apologize for getting out alive, and I'm certainly not going to accuse them of causing it without more proof that they were involved.

[DavidJames]

I think the point was (this was before someone theorized it was a specific informant) why wouldn't the DoJ report this fact to the other agencies, including those under it's jurisdiction (DEA). I assume they all had phones.

It still has yet to be proven that the BATF didn't show up for work that day. There is circumstatial evidence to prove they did, as others have posted above. It is by no means irrifutable, but given the circumstances it's the best that can be hoped for. If there was a timeclock, it was probably destroyed, if there was a sign-in sheet for Bucars it was probaly lost. As I wrote before, the BATF offices were on the other side of the building from the explosion, so the chances of survival were greater. Just because no BATF agents died doesn't mean they were part of a conspiracy. No one from the Bureau of Indian Affairs died either. I don't expect anyone who survived that event to apologize for getting out alive, and I'm certainly not going to accuse them of causing it without more proof that they were involved.Okay with that logic, you just failed CT100 - Basic Conspiracy Theorist Thinking
;)

[CptColumbo]

BTW I don't think Fowlsound "hates" you. You may be frustrating to him, and vice-versa.

BIG HUG EVERYONE!!! Embrace your monitors.

[Ducky]

Before I begin, I must suspect your post. It's clear that you don't like me, and I don't think I like you much. I think you're just poking.

If I remember correctly, you were the one warned by mods for appearing to make violent threats. I'm just asking questions.

That said, I'm confident enough that there is plenty of information published to make me very, very suspicious that there is more to the OKC bombing than just Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

And all I asked for was links telling me who what and where and a way to verify the info.

Before I post these links, I suggest that you Google up this information with the keywords BERG - MOUSSAOUI - LAPTOP.

Certainly you are aware of the burden of proof. I don't do anyone else's homework for them. You made the claims, you provide the evidence.

I was certain you could do this. After all, you have professed being a pretty smart bird (fowl?). Now I'm forced to wonder if you truly are, or are you just screwing with me.

Again, for as long as you have been on this forum you should understand burden of proof.

How about NewsMax? (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/141347.shtml):



Will CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/) do?:



I emboldened key words for those who have reading or comprehension problems.



Is that enough to get you started on your education (including a short lesson on Googling), or must I perform a complete investigation for you?

From the first link, the supposed berg/moussoui meeting was in 1999. How exactly does this relate to OKC? There is nothing stated that gives concrete connections to anything other than a meeting in Ok. How does this relate to the OKC bombing other than happening to be in the same state? McVeigh was in Fort Branning, Ga and Fort Riley, Kansas and had spent his planning time for his bombing in Michigan. That the bombing happened in OKC is simply where he chose to drive the truck, which he rented in Junction City Kansas. I don't see much of a connection here to any of these places and Berg, doing a cross serach of McVeigh and Berg on google.

Your CNN link doesn't establish this either. In fact, it says it was an aquaintance of Mousoui.

Government sources told CNN that the encounter involved an acquaintance of Zacarias Moussaoui -- the only person publicly charged in the United States in connection with the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.



A common trait of coverups is the difficulty of verifying the truth.

A common train of conspiracy theories is the unsurprising lack of evidence.



Andreas Strassmeir, commonly believed by many to be "John Doe II".

Doesn't seem to be mentioned here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh)



Again, I first learned of "Andy" Strassmeir from James Pate's and Rick Sherrow's reporting in Soldier of Fortune magazine. Their work can only be verified by buying their past articles from SOF (http://www.sofmag.com/home.do).

But there is plenty of info (http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh5.html) on Andy.

Use the keywords ANDREAS - STRASSMEIR in a Google search. (After you get the hang of that Google stuff, you may learn a lot).

Second set of links don't cite any verifiable secondary sources.



I'm not taking anything on faith, and I'm not holding on to "a" conspiracy theory. I'm keeping my eyes and ears open, and when new information is revealed (like the Berg-Moussaoui connection), I pay attention.

You're not saying there is a conspiracy connecting these events? Then what have you been posting? Or are you now saying there is no connection?

You're connecting things based on facts not in evidence. There doesn't seem to be any connection to McVeigh. How does Berg figure into the OKC bombings? What evidence is there that he has anything to do with those?

Try it sometime, instead of denying all possibilities.

I am asking for evidence. I am not denying anything.



Gee, foul; may I borrow your laptop?

I've explained how tired and less than clever misspelling my moniker is.

[Huntster]

I think the point was (this was before someone theorized it was a specific informant) why wouldn't the DoJ report this fact to the other agencies, including those under it's jurisdiction (DEA). I assume they all had phones......

I haven't found an answer to that, but it appears that Agent Finley turned over all the information that Howe gave her in the proper protocol. I think it may have been a simple, stupid case of poor communications, or dismissing the reports too eagerly.

...It still has yet to be proven that the BATF didn't show up for work that day. There is circumstatial evidence to prove they did, as others have posted above. It is by no means irrifutable, but given the circumstances it's the best that can be hoped for. If there was a timeclock, it was probably destroyed, if there was a sign-in sheet for Bucars it was probaly lost. As I wrote before, the BATF offices were on the other side of the building from the explosion, so the chances of survival were greater. Just because no BATF agents died doesn't mean they were part of a conspiracy. No one from the Bureau of Indian Affairs died either. I don't expect anyone who survived that event to apologize for getting out alive, and I'm certainly not going to accuse them of causing it without more proof that they were involved....

All true. No contest.