Loose Change: I'm Sick About This

[Gravy]

And I'm sick of this.

I've been posting some Loose Change forum quotes to the "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things" site. There is no shortage of material that's just incredibly stupid, and some of it is very insensitive. But now this.

There is a well-known photo of a woman standing in the gash made by one of the airliners at the WTC. The worst thing in the world has just happened to her. She has no good choices. No one can help her. She is going to die.

Here's what "popul vuh," who is listed as "Global Moderator," has to say (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=3099442) about that photo:

BUT LOOK AT HER OUTFIT, 100% ASBESTOS CHINOS WITH A LOVELY MATCHING FLAME RETARDANT CABLE KNIT V NECK SWEATER.

THAT OUTFIT IS HOT, HOT, HOT!
That cinches it for me. They think they're activists for truth? I'm now an activist who will be spreading the truth about them. They think they're coming to New York to educate the public at Ground Zero? I'll be there with my friends. I hope you wanted Gravy with that, Dylan Avery.

[WildCat]

If you show up to protest against them, and have a sign, make sure it is on a very long pole. Or else they will attempt to cover it up w/ their own signs.

Wish I could be there...

[Gravy]

If you show up to protest against them, and have a sign, make sure it is on a very long pole. Or else they will attempt to cover it up w/ their own signs.

Wish I could be there...

Good advice. Actually, I am a long pole, and very wide. So to speak. And I'll have literature. And news coverage. And maybe some victims' family members would like to come along to see the kind of "truth" that's spread by Loose Change.

But that's just a small part of what I'll be doing to get the word out.

[Pardalis]

I know the feeling. I'm more and more pissed at reading these incredible comments by these loosers who seem to have no respect for the innocent lives that have been lost that day.

I think it's completly justified to criticise America's response to 9-11, the lack of communications, the complete unpreparedness of the government, the justification for the war in Iraq, etc... And it is being done, inquaries and real investigations (not about conspiracies but about intelligence failures) are going on. But this Loose Change thing is SICK. These sick loosers have no idea how their conspiracy theories fuel the Middle East's anger towards America, how they weaken America's unity and how they undermine the overall security of the World. Sure america has alot to answer for and they are partially to blame for what is happening in the world. But creating uncertainty and suspicion in people's minds is counterproductive. And alot of people are buying into what they are saying. While they are building this house of cards, real and imminent danger is at our door. They are completely throwing off the debate.

[FFed]

What a freakin A hole.

I wish I could join you, but distance and my short temper prevent me.

[Manny]

Good advice. Actually, I am a long pole, and very wide. So to speak. And I'll have literature. And news coverage. And maybe some victims' family members would like to come along to see the kind of "truth" that's spread by Loose Change.

But that's just a small part of what I'll be doing to get the word out.Lemme know when and where. I may be able to arrange a few bikers so as to give them the full Fred Phelps treatment.

[Metullus]

Lemme know when and where. I may be able to arrange a few bikers so as to give them the full Fred Phelps treatment.
That would be worth seeing...

[RSLancastr]

Go get 'em, Gravy.

It was similar feelings which led me to create the StopKaz site.

Why people want to make a mockery of all the pain, suffering and death of that day is beyond me. :rm:

[Blackwell]

What a freakin A hole.

I wish I could join you, but distance and my short temper prevent me.

Ditto. I'd be too tempted to bring my Jesus Stick™ with me. My temper's barely long enough to read their posts, much less respond to them. Go get 'em, Gravy.

[Gravy]

Lemme know when and where. I may be able to arrange a few bikers so as to give them the full Fred Phelps treatment.

Ha! Will do. They're not talking about doing their thing until 9/11, but I'll keep an eye out for other appearances of Dylan & co.

[Gravy]

Go get 'em, Gravy.

It was similar feelings which led me to create the StopKaz site.

Why people want to make a mockery of all the pain, suffering and death of that day is beyond me. :rm:

Oh, and did I come across a lot more tonight: amazing comments and jokes about the whereabouts of the "missing" passengers, unbelievably disparaging remarks about families of flight 93 victims who screened a movie about the event, and more. I'm ripping mad.

Now seeing the news come on about nearly 300 human remains atop the Deutsche Bank bldg at the WTC. Those poor families, having to go through that again.

Seriously, I can't wait to see what the Loosers make of this.No doubt they'll accuse the gov't of placing the remains there.

By the way, great job with StopKaz. I've been rooting for you for a long time.

[Piggy]

Very few things make me cry. Seeing that post on Loose Change did.

I couldn't help it. OMG, I'm crying now. To think about that woman, whoever she was, and where she stood, and the choices in front of her. And to think about these callous and indifferent idiots....

At the same time, I want to thank everyone on this forum.

Today, as it happens, as we finished up at work, it was just me and one other coworker left on our floor. We got to talking about this and that. She mentioned the generals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, and made some comments about how she felt the administration can't be trusted.

Then, knowing that I'm one to look into things, she said she'd heard some of these conspiracy theories about 9/11, how Bush might have been involved. She asked if I'd heard about that. I said I had. She asked if I thought there was anything to it.

Because some good people on this forum engaged the conspiracy theorists, because you brought them onto this board and exposed their arguments, because you linked to their sites where I could read what they had to say, because you followed up on their claims and exposed their sources, I was able to do more than say "They're crazy." I was able to tell her what they're saying, and what their evidence is, and why it's bogus.

She said, "I'm glad you've looked into it, because I wanted to know."

You all have done a good thing. Your work reaches beyond this forum, even if you don't always hear about it. I'm proud to be here.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to try to stop crying.

[hellaeon]

* no comment *

:mad:

[CptColumbo]

It's heartbreaking to think what might have been going through her head. Maybe thinking about what her options were. Can she get by the debris to an exit? Can she stand the smoke long enough to make it to an exit? Should she wait to be rescued? Should she jump?

What I guarantee she was not thinking about, will some smarmy a--hole make fun of me in the moments before I make that decision?

I hope there is a hell, and I get to see that j---off there.

[Mercutio]

If this person has a conscience, he (or she, or very likely it) will use its moderator powers to delete that thread, after the briefest bit of reflection on it.

I don't know which is worse, that this waste of carbon wrote that post, or that it thinks its friends will appreciate it. Or worse, that they actually do.

Saddening and sickening. Thanks for the eye-opener, Gravy. I wish you had had no need to.

[kookbreaker]

Funny how Roxdog as trying to lecture us about mass murder on the Death Star thread.

Irony should hurt, hurt like big jagged rocks on ones skull

[orphia nay]

Very few things make me cry. Seeing that post on Loose Change did.

I couldn't help it. OMG, I'm crying now. To think about that woman, whoever she was, and where she stood, and the choices in front of her. And to think about these callous and indifferent idiots....

At the same time, I want to thank everyone on this forum.

Today, as it happens, as we finished up at work, it was just me and one other coworker left on our floor. We got to talking about this and that. She mentioned the generals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, and made some comments about how she felt the administration can't be trusted.

Then, knowing that I'm one to look into things, she said she'd heard some of these conspiracy theories about 9/11, how Bush might have been involved. She asked if I'd heard about that. I said I had. She asked if I thought there was anything to it.

Because some good people on this forum engaged the conspiracy theorists, because you brought them onto this board and exposed their arguments, because you linked to their sites where I could read what they had to say, because you followed up on their claims and exposed their sources, I was able to do more than say "They're crazy." I was able to tell her what they're saying, and what their evidence is, and why it's bogus.

She said, "I'm glad you've looked into it, because I wanted to know."

You all have done a good thing. Your work reaches beyond this forum, even if you don't always hear about it. I'm proud to be here.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to try to stop crying.


http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/dday/frownyes.gif

I wish I could find more than a smiley to express what I feel. Thankyou very much for your post, Piggy.

[JM85]

That is pretty sick. You could tell this guy doesn't care about the victims of 9/11 but just his own personal agenda. Little off topic but I've recently listened to some of the recordings of people calling 911 who were in the south tower of the world trade center and it really puts things in perspective.

[RandFan]

And I'm sick of this.

I've been posting some Loose Change forum quotes to the "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things" site. There is no shortage of material that's just incredibly stupid, and some of it is very insensitive. But now this.

There is a well-known photo of a woman standing in the gash made by one of the airliners at the WTC. The worst thing in the world has just happened to her. She has no good choices. No one can help her. She is going to die.

Here's what "popul vuh," who is listed as "Global Moderator," has to say (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=3099442) about that photo: :mad: I dealt with popul vuh. Ignoramus.

[delphi_ote]

:mad::mad:HATE:mad::mad:

[PopeTom]

Not to derail, but is there a place that confirms that that is a woman on the edge of the impact sight?
The more I look at the blow up and the wider shot the more it looks like her pants are just a piece of building debris from the outside wall and her head is made up of the same stuff you can see down and to the left of her on the other side of the ‘hole’ she is standing in.

-PopeTom

[Shrinker]

I think that 'stuff' to the left is another victim, hence the matching colour.

Even if you're right though, it would do no good. To these folks, if it looks like evidence, its evidence.

[FFed]

Here is the video of her waving.

Download FLURL-dot-com-11433-Jeth_WTC__high_zoom_woman_waving.avi (http://filebuffer.net/?id=37c151b9ef_FLURL-dot-com-11433-Jeth_WTC__high_zoom_woman_waving.avi)

[PopeTom]

Here is the video of her waving.

Download FLURL-dot-com-11433-Jeth_WTC__high_zoom_woman_waving.avi (http://filebuffer.net/?id=37c151b9ef_FLURL-dot-com-11433-Jeth_WTC__high_zoom_woman_waving.avi)

Hard to tell from a 3 second video clip, but it looks even less like a person there then the photos.

-PopeTom

[CFLarsen]

Heartbreaking.

[LostAngeles]

I think that 'stuff' to the left is another victim, hence the matching colour.

Even if you're right though, it would do no good. To these folks, if it looks like evidence, its evidence.

That is.

Motherf***ers.

There are no words, but delphi's post works.

[senorpogo]

I wish I had something worthwhile to add.

All I've got - I'm on JREF now because of the insanity of the nine-eleven conspiracy crowd. I am willing to do what is necessary to counter these people.

[Piggy]

Not to derail, but is there a place that confirms that that is a woman on the edge of the impact sight?
The accuracy of the photo doesn't matter. We know there were human beings who were staring out of that maw, with hell behind them, a chasm in front of them. We know how many of them perished, some of them driven to jump from the building.

What matters is that someone in his comfortable chair can look at a photo which seems to be of one of the victims of that massacre and mock them.

[bob_kark]

Truly sickening.

[CFLarsen]

Hard to tell from a 3 second video clip, but it looks even less like a person there then the photos.

-PopeTom
What else would it be?

[WildCat]

What else would it be?
It's definitely a woman waving, there is a better video somewhere if you look. It also shows the floors above and below her on fire.

I don't know why this is considered evidence of anything by the loosers, who apparently think people can't move around in a building.

[CFLarsen]

It's definitely a woman waving, there is a better video somewhere if you look. It also shows the floors above and below her on fire.

Quite so. I can't see any other explanation.

I don't know why this is considered evidence of anything by the loosers, who apparently think people can't move around in a building.

"Loosers". Very precise description.

[kookbreaker]

If it is a woman, and I am inclined to think it is, so what? She's one survivor (up until that point). She's at the one location that I can be certain that there was very little flammable material nearby (having been pushed by the impact of the plane.) So once any jet fuel burned off (and most of it probably sprayed further into the building) there was little in that area to burn. We don't know her story, or her fate. She might have picked her way down several flights of damaged stairs, until she reached the stairs that were too damaged to pass. She might have pciked here way to the opening, desperately hoping (incorrectly) that someone might be able to extract her from the opening. Or maybe she was just trying to get away from the smoke.

To say that she is proof that the fire was not intense is disgusting. In the video you can clearly see that the fire is burning both above her and bleow her position.

Ultimately, we don't know her fate. A few seconds after this video she might have jumped, desperate to escape the blaze. Lot's of people did that day. She might have gone back inside, knowing there was no escape, gotten to an area free of fire, and then the building collapsed. One thing is for certain, she is dead.

And the Loosers can only make fun of her.

[ChristineR]

At the Moussaoui trial they apparently played any number of similar videos made by people in neighboring high-rise buildings. Why this one is out and about, I can't say. Some of these videos are jumps, and as this woman apparently realized she was being videotaped, others must have as well...

Ouch. Well even if it is not a person (and I'm pretty sure it is) there must be similar images that are undisputedly people.

And she is dead. No one got out from that high in the building.

It's also possible that the video keeps going and shows how she ultimately died. Perhaps it even shows her burning to death. These things exist, but thankfully they are not on the net.

Clarifacation: I did some poking around and actually no one got out of North Tower above the impact point but a handful of people (18) did get out of South tower from above the impact point.

[ImaginalDisc]

Piggy, I nominated your post because I think it illustrates what good the forum can do.

[0oTITANo0]

I am skeptical that that is the woman waving.

If she were waving vigorously the head would move back and forth as her body moves with the vigorous waving. When people wave their arms slow down as the arm changes direction. When waving people either fully extend their arms or they bend their arms at the elbow. The rhythm of the moving object suggests a swinging piece of debris more than a woman waving her arms.

From photos there was definitely a woman in the opening, but she does not appear to be there in the movie.

[ImaginalDisc]

I am skeptical that that is the woman waving.

If she were waving vigorously the head would move back and forth as her body moves with the vigorous waving. When people wave their arms slow down as the arm changes direction. The rhythm of the moving object suggests a swinging piece of debris more than a woman waving.

None of this need be the case.

[CFLarsen]

I am skeptical that that is the woman waving.

If she were waving vigorously the head would move back and forth as her body moves with the vigorous waving. When people wave their arms slow down as the arm changes direction. When waving people either fully extend their arms or they bend their arms at the elbow. The rhythm of the moving object suggests a swinging piece of debris more than a woman waving her arms.

From photos there was definitely a woman in the opening, but she does not appear to be there in the movie.
Ok, then.

If not the woman, what is "waving"?

[Ramooone]

this is my first post here, ive been against these loosers for a long time, but this really irks me.

i found video of the loose change creators at ground zero on 9/11 arguing with firefighters that the government is behind all this. then after that they harrass a widow and proceed to tell her that "we've been doing this research for 4 years and this documentary is the proof that the government killed your husband"

the whole time they're surrounded by other nuts, laughing at times, hanging out with the janitor who has seven different stories of what happened to him that day. its really disturbing, since they claim in the beginning that this is out of respect for the families of victims.

i live in NYC and i will be there this year with the real facts to hand out to people. i'll see ya there gravy!

i cant post the link to the video cause this is my first post, but you can googlevideo it "loose change groud zero revisited"

and this is my first post so, hi everyone!

[chipmunk stew]

this is my first post here, ive been against these loosers for a long time, but this really irks me.

i found video of the loose change creators at ground zero on 9/11 arguing with firefighters that the government is behind all this. then after that they harrass a widow and proceed to tell her that "we've been doing this research for 4 years and this documentary is the proof that the government killed your husband"

the whole time they're surrounded by other nuts, laughing at times, hanging out with the janitor who has seven different stories of what happened to him that day. its really disturbing, since they claim in the beginning that this is out of respect for the families of victims.

i live in NYC and i will be there this year with the real facts to hand out to people. i'll see ya there gravy!

i cant post the link to the video cause this is my first post, but you can googlevideo it "loose change groud zero revisited"

and this is my first post so, hi everyone!Welcome to the forum.

Here's the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1579717123075318465&q=loose+change&pl=true

[Bronze Dog]

I have words for the butchery of logic and truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda).

I have words for the people who use those techniques (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20041209a).

I have no words for those... ...quoted in the OP.

[delphi_ote]

i found video of the loose change creators at ground zero on 9/11 arguing with firefighters that the government is behind all this. then after that they harrass a widow and proceed to tell her that "we've been doing this research for 4 years and this documentary is the proof that the government killed your husband"
That's the most disgusting thing I've heard about thes nut jobs. It reminds me of a recent thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52101) here started by the mother of a missing child who has been harassed by "psychics." She also has an amazing blog here (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/30606-pmp-introduction-to-psychics-and.html).

They're all lunatics preying on the grieving to get attention, and it makes me sick. They must be stopped.
i live in NYC and i will be there this year with the real facts to hand out to people. i'll see ya there gravy!
Fantastic! I'd be glad to help you guys prepare some fliers!
and this is my first post so, hi everyone!
A great first post. Welcome, friend. A big, heartfelt welcome.

[delphi_ote]

Welcome to the forum.

Here's the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1579717123075318465&q=loose+change&pl=true
To pay their respects and promote the film. How ****ing respectful of them. :mad:

[rwguinn]

Who was it that said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it?
Well, even that altruist would arrange to be out of town on this one. I have no use whatsoever for these idiotic, pathetic excuses for homo sapiens! they are a total waste of space and intellect.

[Ramooone]

yeah, i was pretty disgusted when i saw that video.

i like how they bring up penn and teller and the fact that he discredited jimmy walters and eric hufschmitd, not sure if that spelling is correct, eric douchebag, thats better.

i'm also a documentary filmmaker, and unlike these guys i try and make a difference for the good of people. im thinking of making a loose change debunked doc. but it wont be a giant music video with internet clips, i'll actually INTERVIEW people.

"The best definition we have found for civilisation is that a civilised man does what is best for all, while the savage does what is best for himself"--John
hubble

[chipmunk stew]

They'll vilify eyewitnesses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2152&view=findpost&p=3317838).
They'll vilify victims (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=129&st=0&#entry165235).

They'll prop up their theories by any means necessary. They all need a good spanking. Let's give 'em one.

[Bronze Dog]

They'll villify anyone, as long as they can use the horror in some roundabout way to boost their ego, instead of seeking the truth.

[chipmunk stew]

i'm also a documentary filmmaker, and unlike these guys i try and make a difference for the good of people. im thinking of making a loose change debunked doc. but it wont be a giant music video with internet clips, i'll actually INTERVIEW people.If there's anything we can do to pitch in, let us know.

[aggle-rithm]

I am skeptical that that is the woman waving.

If she were waving vigorously the head would move back and forth as her body moves with the vigorous waving. When people wave their arms slow down as the arm changes direction. When waving people either fully extend their arms or they bend their arms at the elbow.


They do when they're waving a cheery hello. The action might be quite different if they were extremely tense and were trying to grab someone's attention.

I wonder if there's anything going on in the picture that would make her extremely tense? Hmmmm....

[RandFan]

Who was it that said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it?
Well, even that altruist would arrange to be out of town on this one. I have no use whatsoever for these idiotic, pathetic excuses for homo sapiens! they are a total waste of space and intellect.

As disgusting as I would find it I would defend their right. I'm fanatically pro free-speech.

Still a quote for Mississippi Burning comes to mind.

Anderson: Don't put me on your perch, Mr Ward!
Ward: Don't drag me into your gutter!
Anderson: These people crawled out of a sewer, Mr Ward! And maybe the gutter's where we should be!

[Gravy]

I welcome your comments, but those who are inclined to photo and video analysis, you're missing the point of my post. We need to respect the people who did die on 9/11 and the families and friends who do suffer with that loss every day.

[0oTITANo0]

It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.

[Kochanski]

The Loosers are truly sick. They say they are after the truth, all they are really after is attention for themselves. Stupid, stupid rat creatures :mad:

The best thing that can happen to these fools is that family members of those who died come after them and sue the ****** pants off them :mad:

Let the come tell their stupid stories to the woman on my block, whose firefighter husband did not come home that day, who was never found.

If any of them had any connection to anyone affected by the events of that terrible day, they would not EVER think to do as they are doing.

They are SCUM.

Edited because I was so angry I could not write properly.

[aggle-rithm]

It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.

I think you have a bad case of reverse pareidolia.

[Gravy]

As disgusting as I would find it I would defend their right. I'm fanatically pro free-speech.!
That's not in question. They have every right to spread misinformation about 9/11. And I have every right to expose their lies.

(Edited to add. Sorry, RandFan, I wasn't taking your post in context with the one you were responding to.)

[Gravy]

It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.Thanks. That was very helpful.

[valis]

They'll vilify eyewitnesses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2152&view=findpost&p=3317838).
They'll vilify victims (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=129&st=0&#entry165235).

They'll prop up their theories by any means necessary. They all need a good spanking. Let's give 'em one.

I gotta laugh at the first link.
They debunk many of the witnesses because of their political ties.
What did they expect to find in DC, automakers?

[aggle-rithm]

I gotta laugh at the first link.
They debunk many of the witnesses because of their political ties.
What did they expect to find in DC, automakers?

I think there are a lot of pimps there, too.

Why haven't any pimps come forward!?

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING!?!

[delphi_ote]

It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.
:troll :trollface :tr: :trollface :troll
Please don't dignify this guy with a response. Just walk away.

Let's keep this thread on subject: what can we do to stop this movement? We're angry. Let's find some way to use that emotion productively.

[Belz...]

And I'm sick of this.

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

A question: do the CTers actually do something about their beliefs ? I mean, they don't just sit in front of their computers and whine all day, shielded by their anonymity, do they ?

Do they ?

[delphi_ote]

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

A question: do the CTers actually do something about their beliefs ? I mean, they don't just sit in front of their computers and whine all day, shielded by their anonymity, do they ?

Do they ?
That was among my questions (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1574004#post1574004) to them on the Loose Change forum. If they don't act like they believe the things they claim to believe. Like this little "documentary" recently posted. Why weren't they afraid of being sent to Guantanamo for "telling the truth?" :rolleyes:

They're attention whores and nothing more.

[RandFan]

That was among my questions (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1574004#post1574004) to them on the Loose Change forum. If they don't act like they believe the things they claim to believe. Like this little "documentary" recently posted. Why weren't they afraid of being sent to Guantanamo for "telling the truth?" :rolleyes:

They're attention whores and nothing more.Bingo, they say we live in a police state yet they come on the internet to accuse the government of mass murder and exposing a supposed "secret", huh? Does anyone buy that they really belive we live in a police state?

[Belz...]

They'll vilify eyewitnesses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2152&view=findpost&p=3317838).
They'll vilify victims (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=129&st=0&#entry165235).

They'll prop up their theories by any means necessary. They all need a good spanking. Let's give 'em one.

Okay, that first link does it. I'm pi$$ed.

[Bronze Dog]

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

A question: do the CTers actually do something about their beliefs ? I mean, they don't just sit in front of their computers and whine all day, shielded by their anonymity, do they ?

Do they ?
That's one question I think we should occasionally ask ourselves.

I've occasionally prevented people in meatspace from buying into woo. I've donated to JREF. I made a comic that at least one person has stuck on a door for others to see. (Don't know the location of the door, but I'm hoping it's at school.)

Of course, our "whining" can prompt action: We can make people change their minds and votes through logic, though those Loose Change probably does some of the same with McCarthyist insinuation and innuendo, instead.

I suppose one thing we could do about the Loosers is if they come up with some Zammit Challenge or manefesto is to publish a full-blown dissection, logical fallacy by logical fallacy.

[Belz...]

That was among my questions (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1574004#post1574004) to them on the Loose Change forum. If they don't act like they believe the things they claim to believe. Like this little "documentary" recently posted. Why weren't they afraid of being sent to Guantanamo for "telling the truth?" :rolleyes:

They're attention whores and nothing more.

I mean, if I thought my government was a murderous, treacherous organisation, I'd get the hell out of canada.

[Belz...]

Bingo, they say we live in a police state yet they come on the internet to accuse the government of mass murder and exposing a supposed "secret", huh? Does anyone buy that they really belive we live in a police state?

And isn't accusing someone of murder libel in the US ?

[RandFan]

That's not in question. They have every right to spread misinformation about 9/11. And I have every right to expose their lies.

(Edited to add. Sorry, RandFan, I wasn't taking your post in context with the one you were responding to.)No problem Gravy, I posted the quote from Mississippi burning to reveal how I feel about these a-holes. They are exploiting tragedy for their hoped for 15 minutes. And this Dylan bastard is getting it. I wish they could all be ignored but sometimes we have to turn on the lights and stomp on the cockroaches.

[chipmunk stew]

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

A question: do the CTers actually do something about their beliefs ? I mean, they don't just sit in front of their computers and whine all day, shielded by their anonymity, do they ?

Do they ?They disrupt the 9/11 day of remembrance every year at Ground Zero by arguing with firemen, cornering 9/11 widows, and promoting their videos. They write 9/11 Truth website addresses on their money. They load videos from jump drives onto computer floor models. They approach college students with their videos and ask them to send them their feedback for a "research paper on people's reactions" to the films. They choose 9/11 Truth as a topic for classroom presentations and use clips from the videos. They spam other forums with links to websites and videos. They send videos to celebrities and other high-profile people.

What they don't seem to do is try to contact any primary sources or do any actual investigative work.

edit: They're admirably effective at spreading their woo. An effective response will have to be as dedicated and creative, I think. They need to be dogged relentlessly.

[delphi_ote]

They disrupt the 9/11 day of remembrance every year at Ground Zero by arguing with firemen, cornering 9/11 widows, and promoting their videos. They write 9/11 Truth website addresses on their money. They load videos from jump drives onto computer floor models. They approach college students with their videos and ask them to send them their feedback for a "research paper on people's reactions" to the films. They choose 9/11 Truth as a topic for classroom presentations and use clips from the videos. They spam other forums with links to websites and videos. They send videos to celebrities and other high-profile people.

What they don't seem to do is try to contact any primary sources or do any actual investigative work.
Why don't we disrupt their disruption this year?

[Belz...]

They disrupt the 9/11 day of remembrance every year at Ground Zero by arguing with firemen, cornering 9/11 widows, and promoting their videos.

Well, those globalist tyrants aren't doing their jobs very well in silencing "da truth".

[aggle-rithm]

That's one question I think we should occasionally ask ourselves.

I've occasionally prevented people in meatspace from buying into woo. I've donated to JREF. I made a comic that at least one person has stuck on a door for others to see. (Don't know the location of the door, but I'm hoping it's at school.)

Of course, our "whining" can prompt action: We can make people change their minds and votes through logic, though those Loose Change probably does some of the same with McCarthyist insinuation and innuendo, instead.

I suppose one thing we could do about the Loosers is if they come up with some Zammit Challenge or manefesto is to publish a full-blown dissection, logical fallacy by logical fallacy.

Well, at least we don't claim "Time is of the essence!" and "if we don't act quickly, the US will invade Iran!" and then just continue to whine impotently.

When I wonder what we can do about all this, I think about people who I know who are on the fence about the 911 conspiracy theories. The CT'ers come on very, very strong when pushing their agenda, so it seems that if rational people don't come on equally strong, the fence-sitters won't have any reason to doubt what they have been told about conspiracies. On the other hand, if we do this, the fence-sitters are apt to just dismiss the whole affair, saying it's just a difference of opinion, when it most certainly is not. It all comes down to intellectual laziness -- it's too much trouble to discern who is right and who is talking nonsense. This is frustrating since it only takes the slightest of effort to detect logical fallacies.

Fortunately, when these sorts of people actually come out of their caves and bring their lunacy to the public, the insanity of their position often becomes more evident. Maybe that's what will happen in New York.

Edited to add: After reading chipmunk stew's post, it doesn't seem that being exposed as lunatics will be much of a deterrent to them. :(

[tsg]

Who was it that said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it?

Voltaire, I believe.

Well, even that altruist would arrange to be out of town on this one. I have no use whatsoever for these idiotic, pathetic excuses for homo sapiens! they are a total waste of space and intellect.

With the right to say whatever the hell you want comes the duty to take responsibility for what you say, including being thought a complete f***tard, for others having little sympathy when something tragic happens to you, and possibly getting punched in the mouth.

[brodski]

What they don't seem to do is try to contact any primary sources or do any actual investigative work.


Why should they? They already "know" the truth, why risk actual facts getting in the way?

[chipmunk stew]

Why don't we disrupt their disruption this year?I'm thinking t-shirts that say "SHILL", "GOVERNMENT STOOGE", "GLOBALIST", "ILLUMINATUS" and the like.

edit: Good attention-getter, and takes the punch out of the inevitable accusation.

[Metullus]

I had not seen either he picture or the video of the woman waving before reading this thread.

Delphi said it all: HATE. I am revolted by what I read at LC - I cannot fathom how people can be so cruel and hateful.

And just plain stupid.

[CptColumbo]

Let's keep this thread on subject: what can we do to stop this movement? We're angry. Let's find some way to use that emotion productively.

The one person is challenging someone to come on his radio show to debate the issue. However, I would want to listen to the show prior to agreeing to anything. In the past when I have listened to shows about CTs with a guest who disagrees with the subject, the guest is interrupted and shouted at if they try to reach a point, or asked to leave if they get too close to debunking the CT. I would ask for formal debating rules with an independent moderator, and the raw audio and video footage of the show. Plus I would not debate myself, because I'm sure there are better qualified people (structural engineers, physicists, demolition experts, pilots) than me (w/ degree in theatre arts).

[Bronze Dog]

I'm thinking t-shirts that say "SHILL", "GOVERNMENT STOOGE", "GLOBALIST", "ILLUMINATUS" and the like.

edit: Good attention-getter, and takes the punch out of the inevitable accusation.
They'd make an honest person out of geni. ;)

[CptColumbo]

And a neutral location, with no spectators beyond an additional representative.

[ImaginalDisc]

Voltaire, I believe.


No, it was a biographer of Voltaire, Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
These words were first used by Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G. Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a paraphrase of Voltaire's attitudes, based on statements in Essay on Tolerance where he asserts: "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privelege to do so too", but its ultimate origin may lie in a letter to M. le Riche (February 6, 1770): "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write."

[Gravy]

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

A question: do the CTers actually do something about their beliefs ? I mean, they don't just sit in front of their computers and whine all day, shielded by their anonymity, do they ?

Do they ?

They do! (I have harsher words for what they're doing while diddling their mice to 9/11 photos and videos "Now run it back and forth, back and forth, slowly," but we'll keep it clean for now.)

What they're not doing is any kind of "investigation." They don't seem to have any idea what a real investigator does. That bothers me a lot, because they spend endless hours criticizing official investigations. I refer to the LC forum as a CT workshop. The goal is not to find answers, but to perpetuate the conspiracy. Example: the admins there consider "no planes" to be a theory worth pursuing. If they had any interest in the truth, they wouldn't make belief in their theory a requirement to post there. I've never seen a group of people so divorced from reality.

[Gravy]

The one person is challenging someone to come on his radio show to debate the issue. However, I would want to listen to the show prior to agreeing to anything. In the past when I have listened to shows about CTs with a guest who disagrees with the subject, the guest is interrupted and shouted at if they try to reach a point, or asked to leave if they get too close to debunking the CT. I would ask for formal debating rules with an independent moderator, and the raw audio and video footage of the show. Plus I would not debate myself, because I'm sure there are better qualified people (structural engineers, physicists, demolition experts, pilots) than me (w/ degree in theatre arts).

Is that Roxdog's podcast you're talking about, the one that "averages 50 listeners?' There's a reason he can't debate here but likes the live format: facts aren't required there.

Right now I'm writing some letters to editors, putting together LC quotes, and over the weekend I'll dissect the video.

[Gravy]

Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

Thanks, Belz. But the killer is that I haven't done any "research" at all. I've refuted a number of long-held CT claims with a few minutes of fact-checking. I think of research as work.

Just look at the "Oklahoma City Bombing" thread. There are apparently hundreds of websites and books that tell us how suspicious it is that "No ATF agents were in the building" when the bomb went off, because they had been warned. 15 minutes of fact-checking proves that 11-year-old claim wrong. On the same thread, another few minutes of checking disproved the CT "fact" that additional explosives were found at the building. And I had never heard of any of these CT theories until people here and at LC challenged me to seek "the truth." It's shocking how easily their b.s. can be exposed. I keep saying to myself, "Is that all they've got? When are they going to bring out the big guns?"

I think the CTers (at least the ones I've encountered on these forums...I'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are invalid) won't do real research because they're defined by their "victim" status. To take that away would be to reveal that they're perfectly capable of walking on their own, and I think that scares them very much.

The great thing about the Loose Change people is that they're so intent on giving their views widespread exposure. I'm glad to help. And I would LOVE to debate their "best" people, frauds like Steven Jones, Jeff King, and David Ray Griffin, but they'd never allow that in a million years.

[Walk The Line]

Welcome to the forum.

Here's the video: [/URL]


During my lunch break I watched this video and noticed that at 11 minutes 30 seconds into it, they mention Penn and Teller. The man who is talking (I forget which guy it is) mentions "Bullsh!t", how P&T try to disprove stuff, and then throw out two names, Jimmy Walter, and the other I couldn't catch. When I first saw the video, it sounded like P&T could be endorsing the Loose Change stuff. Upon rewatching it several times, I think it is actually the opposite, that P&T try to debunk this crap (Given their history of skeptical thought). But the way it is presented, and only viewed once, I can see how people might think that P&T support the "9/11 conspiracy."

What do you all think?

[RSLancastr]

Right now I'm writing some letters to editors, putting together LC quotes, and over the weekend I'll dissect the video.The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.

[CFLarsen]

It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.

Seek help.

[CFLarsen]

Right now I'm writing some letters to editors, putting together LC quotes, and over the weekend I'll dissect the video.

Write it up and send it to me.

[ImaginalDisc]

The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.

"Dangerous Denial"?

[brodski]

The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.
bad paranoia?

[Gravy]

this is my first post here, ive been against these loosers for a long time, but this really irks me.

i found video of the loose change creators at ground zero on 9/11 arguing with firefighters that the government is behind all this. then after that they harrass a widow and proceed to tell her that "we've been doing this research for 4 years and this documentary is the proof that the government killed your husband"

the whole time they're surrounded by other nuts, laughing at times, hanging out with the janitor who has seven different stories of what happened to him that day. its really disturbing, since they claim in the beginning that this is out of respect for the families of victims.

i live in NYC and i will be there this year with the real facts to hand out to people. i'll see ya there gravy!

i cant post the link to the video cause this is my first post, but you can googlevideo it "loose change groud zero revisited"

and this is my first post so, hi everyone!

Delphi said it best: great first post, and welcome!

[tsg]

The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.

Attention Whores.

[FFed]

Here is another pic of the women, who has been tentatively identified by her husband as Edna Cintron.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/people/3707.html

You can also see another person on the bottom picture in the upper left. There are larger pictures showing the guy with no shirt and blue pants.

[delphi_ote]

This isn't recess. This isn't story time. This isn't the set for a hip music video. This isn't the political arena or a way to make a buck. 9/11 should never be about you.

Every morning on September 11th, I make myself a stiff drink and sit in alone in the quiet at the same hour my peace was interrupted years ago by the second plane hitting the WTC live on my TV. I don't light sappy candles to try and make myself feel better. I don't pretend like those people are in a happier place now. I don't put animated GIFs of eagles crying on my website to show everyone how much I care when I didn't even know where or what the World Trade Center was before 2001. I don't sit and think how brave we all were that day or wave my flag. There wasn't any message or point to what happened. Just a chasm of human suffering dimly lit by sparks of herosim.

I do my best to remember things as they were: painful, awful, and unjust. Nothing new, just one of the extremes of the human condition. As has happened over and over in history, ignorance and hatred collided to generate pointless, wasteful destruction on a massive scale. I don't just think about the brave firefighters charging up the stairs, I remember all the office workers who were sitting at their desks crunching numbers only seconds before they were forced to decide between burning alive or committing suicide. I think of the janitor who died because someone thought taking his life would make a good political statement. I think of the people who died in a panic, running down flight after flight of stairs to escape the building that collapsed on top of them while they wondered if they would ever make it home to pick up their kids from school.

These memories are the ugly truth of that day. As bitter as they are, we owe it to those people to remember what happened accurately, because memories are all we have left.

[Moochie]

And I'm sick of this.

I've been posting some Loose Change forum quotes to the "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things" site. There is no shortage of material that's just incredibly stupid, and some of it is very insensitive. But now this.

There is a well-known photo of a woman standing in the gash made by one of the airliners at the WTC. The worst thing in the world has just happened to her. She has no good choices. No one can help her. She is going to die.

Here's what "popul vuh," who is listed as "Global Moderator," has to say (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&view=findpost&p=3099442) about that photo:


That cinches it for me. They think they're activists for truth? I'm now an activist who will be spreading the truth about them. They think they're coming to New York to educate the public at Ground Zero? I'll be there with my friends. I hope you wanted Gravy with that, Dylan Avery.


There's no excuse for what these idiots are doing.

M.

[tsg]

There's no excuse for what these idiots are doing.

I would like nothing more than for them to grow up and realize what asses they were so they can live with that shame for the rest of their lives.

[Gravy]

And isn't accusing someone of murder libel in the US ?
They avoid that by not being able to name a single person who was involved in the conspiracy. I posed this question on LC, regarding the WTC attacks:

Imagine that you're prosecuting the biggest murder case in American history. You KNOW that the crime was committed by members of a certain group. You know it so bad it hurts. You've known it for 4 1/2 years.

There are just a few tiny details you don't know:

– Who anyone is who was involved in any way
– How the plan might have been carried out
– How the vast number of people involved remained unseen and not a word leaked out
– How no trace of equipment or explosives was ever found
– How the work could have survived direct impact from 500 mph airliners and subsequent fire that was hot enough to melt aluminum
– What the motive was
– Why the perps would have added a complicated airline hijack-crash scenario to a perfectly good building demolition.
– Why the buildings weren't blown while fully occupied
– What the explosives, wiring, and/or radio detonators looked like
– How every investigator, public and private, can be in on the coverup
– Why every expert report says you're wrong
– Why the world's leading controlled demolitons experts call your theory "ludicrous"
– Why your leading scientific expert is your worst enemy ("Entropy is, 'Things topple over'.")
– Why of all people, Charlie Sheen had to publicly champion your cause
– On what day Oliver Stone's movie will be released, and if Charlie Sheen or Kevin Costner will play you

I ask you, Mr. prosecutor, have you made your case to the jury?

[Ramooone]

i just like how they use sources like Jimmy walters, david griffith and eric douchebag as experts in the field structural collapse.

hmm, one is a billionaire philanthropist, the other is a theologian and the last guy is a computer programmer.

based on their logic i really hope on of them gets incredibly sick and goes to an english professor for a diagnosis.

[Bronze Dog]

based on their logic i really hope on of them gets incredibly sick and goes to an english professor for a diagnosis.
:dl:

[PopeTom]

FFED,

Thank you for those better photos, it does seem more clear that that is infact one of the unfortunate people who died in the 9/11 attacks.

The point behind my questioning the photo on CT boards was if in fact it had been debris that looked like a person it was one more hole in their crazt rantings. At no time did I intend to lessen the horror that occured that day for the world as w hole or the people who's lives were lost.

-PopeTom

[Twilek]

– On what day Oliver Stone's movie will be released, and if Charlie Sheen or Kevin Costner will play you.

This one...I don't know whether to laugh or cry. My sister is an "Eeeevil Gubmint is Practicing Mind-Control on Us with their Super-Secret Satellite Lasers" CT'er, and once sarcastically asked me during an e-mail rant who I thought Hollywood would get to play her "when the movie comes out".

Wow.

She's the reason I found my way to the JREF. This 9/11 conspiracy crap is one of the many I stay. I applaud your tenacity on this subject, Gravy, and wish there was more...heck ANYTHING... that I could do to help.

[Gravy]

This one...I don't know whether to laugh or cry. My sister is an "Eeeevil Gubmint is Practicing Mind-Control on Us with their Super-Secret Satellite Lasers" CT'er, and once sarcastically asked me during an e-mail rant who I thought Hollywood would get to play her "when the movie comes out".

Wow.

She's the reason I found my way to the JREF. This 9/11 conspiracy crap is one of the many I stay. I applaud your tenacity on this subject, Gravy, and wish there was more...heck ANYTHING... that I could do to help.

Twilek, if you are close to your sister, you could encourage her to visit this site, to read Randi's commentaries and to lurk around the forum. Maybe she'll have the confidence to post and engage in discussions. She'll at least see how critical thinking skilla are applied to these issues, which she won't get at the CT sites. You could also send her the link to A Field Guide to Critical Thinking, (http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html) a good, user-friendly article.

Oops. Just noticed I have a bunch of PMs. Better get to those.

(Edited to add) Or, you could just post her emails to "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things.":D

[Dark Jaguar]

Didn't watch all of it, I skipped around from segment to segment. I did skip straight to someone in uniform basically putting those idiots in their place stating they are just speculating without any evidence, and thinking doens't come from the heart, it comes from the head. THAT was entertaining.

[Twilek]

I try to be close, but she makes it difficult.

Thanks for the link. I believe I have seen the Critical Thinking Field Guide and refrained from sending it to her because of the accompanying picture of someone fishing in a person's head. That's just the kind of weird details she grasps onto as "secret coded proof"!....a picture of someone fishing in someone's mind, well that's exactly what "they" are doing to her, y'know? We're all just to stupid to pick up on these "oh so obvious messages", etc. etc. etc. See, I'm already getting keen to what spooks her, which I guess is a plus.

Her e-mails are definitely a peek into a paranoid's mind. The scary part is, many of the Looser's posts could be hers, just change the subject. Same with the posts on Carnicom's chemtrail site, and a few others she's sent me links to. Are all these people clinically mentally ill? Does one have to be to think like that?

Anyway, off topic. I just can't help reading everything in CT-land against the backdrop of my up-close-and-personal experience with it, and the movie comment hit really close to home. Carry on! :)

[AWPrime]

That is pretty sick. You could tell this guy doesn't care about the victims of 9/11 but just his own personal agenda. Little off topic but I've recently listened to some of the recordings of people calling 911 who were in the south tower of the world trade center and it really puts things in perspective.
Many of them don't even think that many of the people who died were even real......

[Belz...]

Her e-mails are definitely a peek into a paranoid's mind.

I don't want to be mean but, have you considered medication ?

[Belz...]

Many of them don't even think that many of the people who died were even real......

Well it's easy to think like they do when you ignore, as Delphi_Ote said, that these are people with lives and children to go back to once their work is done. No, they're just numbers to them. Numbers to be exploited by their paranoid delusions.

...Taking a deep breath, now.

[LostAngeles]

Why don't we disrupt their disruption this year?

No school I've applied to starts classes until late Sept.

[chipmunk stew]

Why don't we disrupt their disruption this year?Sept. 11 is a Monday this year. I'll make sure I reserve a vacation day. It's only a couple hours from Philly on the Chinatown bus.

[Belz...]

Sept. 11 is a Monday this year. I'll make sure I reserve a vacation day. It's only a couple hours from Philly on the Chinatown bus.

You do that. Maybe I'll send a fireball or two, for support. I'm more of an artillery guy myself. Let the OTHER guys get their hands dirty with ACTUAL work.

How about those "globalist" t-shirts, now ?

[Z]

Though it sickens me, their reaction to the whole affair, I do have to say that, in that one video clip, the 'waving woman' doesn't look like such; however, I'd be hard-pressed to say it looks like much of anything in that clip.

The other pictures, though, seem to clearly show a woman - in at least two different poses, no less - as well as the Shirtless Man.

What's really sickening is the absolute knowledge that the living, breathing people in those images are just... gone. That there's nothing you can do to stop their deaths, and the pain caused to their families and friends.

(The biggest reasons I hate seeing dead bodies on the news, etc...)

If only I could get away long enough to lend a hand...

[hellaeon]

Gravy you rule mate.

Time for me to take action around here in little old South Aus with some old nutbag friends.

[brodski]

Why don't we disrupt their disruption this year?
be very careful how you do this, whilst I think that these guys are scum fir their actions, esp on the anniversary of the WTC attack, if there are grieving relatives at the site, you do not want to potentially make the situation worse. You don't want to give the loosers any more publicity, especially not sympathetic publicity, and you defiantly don't want to get into extremely heated confrontations with them, despite the fact that you will be supporting the victims relatives, you dint want to get into a "fight at a funeral".
I support what you guys are doing, hell, If I could afford the transatlantic flight I'd be there with you.All I am saying is think about how you will "interact" with these whack jobs, and how this will impact of any grieving people at the scene, joke t-shirts for example may be seen as taking the piss out of the whole situation, not just the conspiracy nuts.

[delphi_ote]

be very careful how you do this, whilst I think that these guys are scum fir their actions, esp on the anniversary of the WTC attack, if there are grieving relatives at the site, you do not want to potentially make the situation worse. You don't want to give the loosers any more publicity, especially not sympathetic publicity, and you defiantly don't want to get into extremely heated confrontations with them, despite the fact that you will be supporting the victims relatives, you dint want to get into a "fight at a funeral".
I support what you guys are doing, hell, If I could afford the transatlantic flight I'd be there with you.All I am saying is think about how you will "interact" with these whack jobs, and how this will impact of any grieving people at the scene, joke t-shirts for example may be seen as taking the piss out of the whole situation, not just the conspiracy nuts.
I could not agree more. My idea right now would be simple and considerate. Just follow the Loosers around and debrief people they talked to. Basically "Maybe those guys sound reasonable, but they're wrong. Make sure you think about this a little bit before you agree with them." Maybe hand out fliers that present basic facts, links to websites to get more info, and some of the more extreme beliefs of the Loosers. I feel the latter is necessary, because conspiracy theorists, like cults, always sound reasonable at first. They present their best side to the public. It's not until you're in that they start presenting their more crazy ideas. By then, the naive are already hooked.

Maybe we could also hand out fliers to people there who would be sympathetic. "Listen, we really care about what happened here. There are some people here with some really confused notions trying to spread disinformation. We want to put a stop to it."

The whole reason I got into this fray in the first place was to protect the people like Hal and to make sure the memories of those lost weren't exploited. No, I wouldn't let it become a circus.

[RandFan]

I could not agree more. My idea right now would be simple and considerate. Just follow the Loosers around and debrief people they talked to. Basically "Maybe those guys sound reasonable, but they're wrong. Make sure you think about this a little bit before you agree with them." Maybe hand out fliers that present basic facts, links to websites to get more info, and some of the more extreme beliefs of the Loosers. I feel the latter is necessary, because conspiracy theorists, like cults, always sound reasonable at first. They present their best side to the public. It's not until you're in that they start presenting their more crazy ideas. By then, the naive are already hooked.

Maybe we could also hand out fliers to people there who would be sympathetic. "Listen, we really care about what happened here. There are some people here with some really confused notions trying to spread disinformation. We want to put a stop to it."

The whole reason I got into this fray in the first place was to protect the people like Hal and to make sure the memories of those lost weren't exploited. No, I wouldn't let it become a circus. Agreed. It would be a mistake to let the message get lost due to recriminations or to make them appear sane by comparison or to give them more publicity than necassary. Like I said earlier I would be happy for everyone to simply ignore them but that isn't likely to happen.

[Gravy]

Now that I've calmed down a bit, my feeling is that the Loosers will have been largely discredited by Sept., and none of this may be necessary (and maybe I will have watched more than 7 minutes of their damn video by then). Their line may sell well on college campuses, but I don't think it's going to work on an older audience. I think we'll be helped by the release of "United 93," which is coming out soon. It'll raise people's awareness. And if the Loosers want to shout to the world that there were no heroes on board, just a bunch of people who went to Cleveland and disappeared, that makes our job that much easier.

Happy 11,400th, RandFan. Jeebus, get a life, willya?

(edited for clarity)

[Timothy]

be very careful how you do this, whilst I think that these guys are scum fir their actions, esp on the anniversary of the WTC attack, if there are grieving relatives at the site, you do not want to potentially make the situation worse. You don't want to give the loosers any more publicity, especially not sympathetic publicity, and you defiantly don't want to get into extremely heated confrontations with them, despite the fact that you will be supporting the victims relatives, you dint want to get into a "fight at a funeral".

One of the best counterprotests aimed at an appalling group of people occurred when the anti-gay Reverend Fred Phelps organized a protest at the funeral of Matthew Shepard, the University of Wyoming student brutally murdered because of his homosexuality. Phelps' small group of supporters held signs that read "Matt Shepard rots in Hell," "AIDS kills fags dead," and "God hates fags."

Friends of Shepard organized a group of individuals who wore white robes and gigantic white wings. As Phelps began his protest, these "Angels of Peace" silently surrounded the protesters, blocking the hateful signs from the view of everyone with their raised wings.

If one were to want to counterprotest, the effectiveness and grace of this example is a good lesson.

- Timothy

[delphi_ote]

If one were to want to counterprotest, the effectiveness and grace of this example is a good lesson.
Exactly. Thanks for sharing that.

I think my idea is in the same spirit. Just follow them around discretely. If they talk to someone and the person seems receptive to their ideas, give the person some precautionary, skeptical information. If they upset the person, ask that person if they'd be interested in doing something to stop their hurtful message.

[RandFan]

Happy 11,400th, RandFan. Jeebus, get a life, willya? No kidding!!! :)

[Gravy]

One of the best counterprotests aimed at an appalling group of people occurred when the anti-gay Reverend Fred Phelps organized a protest at the funeral of Matthew Shepard, the University of Wyoming student brutally murdered because of his homosexuality. Phelps' small group of supporters held signs that read "Matt Shepard rots in Hell," "AIDS kills fags dead," and "God hates fags."

Friends of Shepard organized a group of individuals who wore white robes and gigantic white wings. As Phelps began his protest, these "Angels of Peace" silently surrounded the protesters, blocking the hateful signs from the view of everyone with their raised wings.

If one were to want to counterprotest, the effectiveness and grace of this example is a good lesson.

- Timothy

Manny (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1572690&postcount=6) is working on that, but I think he's thinking more along the lines of "Angel of Death."

[Twilek]

I don't want to be mean but, have you considered medication ?

Not mean at all. :)

Yes we have, and no she won't. She refuses to consider any hint that there might be a real problem here. Besides the brain-sucking satellites, of course.

It reminds me how in the LC forum many times I have read people stating "people look at me like I'm crazy", "this is real", "I'm not crazy". I've heard them all. Are they? Is she? The obsessiveness of their crusade is certainly similar, there just aren't any good videos out there for the Mind-Control crowd to grasp on to and sell/give away on street corners.

[Belz...]

Yes we have, and no she won't. She refuses to consider any hint that there might be a real problem here. Besides the brain-sucking satellites, of course.

She didn't say that, did she ?

[b33fj3rky]

Look, people, there's a vast conspiracy going on, perpatrated by the US gov'ment. Millions of dollars were spent, and thousands of lives were lost. Fortunately, I am a noble, uncompromising soul who has left the Matrix, and seen behind the veil. It took a helluva a lot of courage on my part, through my special, uber-journalistic methods of "sitting on my ass reading webpages" and "listening to Alex Jones podcasts" and "combing the Skittles out of my neckbeard." You may say, if they gov'ment is such a keen, evil, manipulative machine, then why don't I get the hell out of America? And I tell you, sir, that MOM WILL NOT LET ME BORROW HER CAR, so I am stuck here.

[Belz...]

Look, people, there's a vast conspiracy going on, perpatrated by the US gov'ment. Millions of dollars were spent, and thousands of lives were lost. Fortunately, I am a noble, uncompromising soul who has left the Matrix, and seen behind the veil. It took a helluva a lot of courage on my part, through my special, uber-journalistic methods of "sitting on my ass reading webpages" and "listening to Alex Jones podcasts" and "combing the Skittles out of my neckbeard." You may say, if they gov'ment is such a keen, evil, manipulative machine, then why don't I get the hell out of America? And I tell you, sir, that MOM WILL NOT LET ME BORROW HER CAR, so I am stuck here.

Ouch. True, but ouch.

[Gravy]

"combing the Skittles out of my neckbeard."
My grandfather performed that act in Asbury Park in the '30s. See my take on Tennessee here. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1577826&postcount=40)

[Twilek]

She didn't say that, did she ?

Well, it's not a direct quote... but if I didn't paraphrase your eyes would glaze over.

[sophia8]

One of the best counterprotests aimed at an appalling group of people occurred when the anti-gay Reverend Fred Phelps organized a protest at the funeral of Matthew Shepard, the University of Wyoming student brutally murdered because of his homosexuality. Phelps' small group of supporters held signs that read "Matt Shepard rots in Hell," "AIDS kills fags dead," and "God hates fags."

Friends of Shepard organized a group of individuals who wore white robes and gigantic white wings. As Phelps began his protest, these "Angels of Peace" silently surrounded the protesters, blocking the hateful signs from the view of everyone with their raised wings.

If one were to want to counterprotest, the effectiveness and grace of this example is a good lesson.

- TimothyI can't remember when or where, but when the Phelps gang threatened to picket some gay-run bar, the bar owners organised a big street party, with everybody in town invited. When the Phelps gang showed up (all three of them!), they were cordially welcomed, shown to their seats, offered food and drink etc.
They left after 15 minutes. The bar, meanwhile, had raised hundreds of dollars for charity, given everybody a good time and got everyone on their side.

[Belz...]

Well, it's not a direct quote... but if I didn't paraphrase your eyes would glaze over.

Wierd opinions from relatives or friends would certainly make for a very interesting thread, trust me.

Hummm...

[Twilek]

Yeah...It could be titled something like "Quote Your Woo", or, ooooh better: "Who's the Woos that Knows You'se". :D

Or "You'ins" if you're from Pittsburgh..it just won't rhyme as nicely. ;)

[orphia nay]

Wondering late last night what we can do to stop these people, I remembered this contest:
http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm
It's a million dollars for proving the WTC disaster was not a controlled demoliton, provided by Jimmy Walter, funder of the '9/11: In Plane Site' 'documentary'.
I started a thread about it late last year,
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=48740
and a lot of opinion was that it was an impossible task worth more than a million in man-hours.
I feel that people here since then have answered quite a few of Walter's requisite questions, and am wondering if we have the impetus to take a crack at it.
Of course, there's reaching for the stars, and then there's reaching for Planet X...

[rjh01]

But who are the judges? If they are loose change or similar people they would reject all evidence. Does the $1m exist anyway?

[Gravy]

Wondering late last night what we can do to stop these people, I remembered this contest:
http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm
It's a million dollars for proving the WTC disaster was not a controlled demoliton, provided by Jimmy Walter, funder of the '9/11: In Plane Site' 'documentary'.

I loved this quote, straight out of the Onion: Mainstream Media Again Ignores [Conspiracy Theorist] Event as Censorship Spreads Across Land Like Existed In Nazi Germany

And
a crowd of more than 500 to 600
And
And the media was again strangely absent from the opening night 9/11 event, as several in attendance reported no major newspapers or television stations covered the event.

Yeah, those are some conditions he's got all right. I sent him this email:
Dear Mr. Walter,
I am eager to take on your $1 million challenge, but my lawyer advised me to first request proof that you are not an agent of the New Universal Order Conspirators on Planet X.

I await your reply.

[ChristineR]

I can't remember when or where, but when the Phelps gang threatened to picket some gay-run bar, the bar owners organised a big street party, with everybody in town invited. When the Phelps gang showed up (all three of them!), they were cordially welcomed, shown to their seats, offered food and drink etc.
They left after 15 minutes. The bar, meanwhile, had raised hundreds of dollars for charity, given everybody a good time and got everyone on their side.

Not this incident (http://www.autbar.com/fred_phelps_press_release.htm), is it? The facts are a little different than your account, but it could be what you're thinking of.

[Strider1974]

When criticized for his comments <>popol vuh had this response http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1919&st=60&#entry3099442

"I am not mocking the woman, you imbecile, I am mocking the people who stubbornly cling to a lie about raging infernos when there is in fact no such thing.

There are days when I wish I had never begun to look into this matter, not because of how disheartening it is to know that a monsterous crime has gone not only unsolved, but unpunished, but that the average American isn't educated enough to know when they have been lied to when the evidence is staring them right in the face."

Sounds more like someone with a callous disregard to human suffering, someone who isn't educated enough to make an a logical argument, even when the evidence is staring them in the face.

[sophia8]

Not this incident (http://www.autbar.com/fred_phelps_press_release.htm), is it? The facts are a little different than your account, but it could be what you're thinking of.Yes, that's it. I was quoting from five-year-old memory, so it's no surprise some details were wrong.

[Luke T.]

They'll vilify eyewitnesses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2152&view=findpost&p=3317838).
They'll vilify victims (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=129&st=0&#entry165235).

They'll prop up their theories by any means necessary. They all need a good spanking. Let's give 'em one.

In the second link, some character calling himself "jdyolam" says:

One very curious detail about the hijacker myth -- they had reportedly put on red headbands during the attack. Muslims do not like the color red, as it was hated by the prophet muhammed. There is a long story about the red detail on a cloth -- and how certain muslims were reprimanded for putting red, the color despised by teh prophet. Green, yes. Red, never. So WHY DID THE HIJACKERS CHOOSE RED?

I don't know if the hijackers wore red headbands. But. This guy is seriously retarded. Has he never noticed Muslims wearing red and white kaffiyehs?

[Luke T.]

And, of course, the Iranian flag: http://www.alpineascents.com/graphics/flags/iran-flag.gif

"Muslims do not like the color red."

Idiot.

[brodski]

And, of course, the Iranian flag: http://www.alpineascents.com/graphics/flags/iran-flag.gif

"Muslims do not like the color red."

Idiot.
and I'm sure that the "Red Crescent" is totally insensitive to the opinions of the Muslim world...

[hurdygurdy]

And, of course, the Iranian flag: http://www.alpineascents.com/graphics/flags/iran-flag.gif

"Muslims do not like the color red."

Idiot.

And also the flags from Irak, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon...

[Luke T.]

Hezbollah logo (http://www2.rnw.nl/assets/images/hezbollah-logo.jpg).

[Luke T.]

Hezbollah in uniform (http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/photos/hezbollah.jpg).

[brodski]

Hezbollah in uniform (http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/photos/hezbollah.jpg).
nah, TEH GLOBALISTS have just done a LOT of photoshopping. ;)

[gfunkusarelius]

i love it when i can read something, feel somewhat swayed by it because it sounds logical, then see people post about 10 responses that show how silly it was for me to believe it, haha.

[delphi_ote]

i love it when i can read something, feel somewhat swayed by it because it sounds logical, then see people post about 10 responses that show how silly it was for me to believe it, haha.
That's why we're all here, isn't it?

[CptColumbo]

That's why we're all here, isn't it?

I'm here for the recipes.:)

[kookbreaker]

So let's see, Muslims can't wear gold or anything that looks like gold, except when they do (like Osama) and they can't wear red..except when they do.

Why don't we make up more things that Muslims can't do or wear, like yellow socks, or anything with the number '6' in it.

[CptColumbo]

So let's see, Muslims can't wear gold or anything that looks like gold, except when they do (like Osama) and they can't wear red..except when they do.

Why don't we make up more things that Muslims can't do or wear, like yellow socks, or anything with the number '6' in it.

Polyesther is right out.

[tsg]

Why don't we make up more things that Muslims can't do or wear, like yellow socks, or anything with the number '6' in it.

How about "Muslims aren't allowed to hijack airplanes"?

[aggle-rithm]

So let's see, Muslims can't wear gold or anything that looks like gold, except when they do (like Osama) and they can't wear red..except when they do.

Why don't we make up more things that Muslims can't do or wear, like yellow socks, or anything with the number '6' in it.

If you threaten to bury them with pig remains, it'll straighten 'em right up!

[hurdygurdy]

So let's see, Muslims can't wear gold or anything that looks like gold, except when they do (like Osama) and they can't wear red..except when they do.

Why don't we make up more things that Muslims can't do or wear, like yellow socks, or anything with the number '6' in it.

A Flying Spaghetti Monster t-shirt, unless they don't know what is it about.

[gfunkusarelius]

christians arent supposed to create or worship idols either. oops.

[NoZed Avenger]

That's why we're all here, isn't it?

I'm here for the chicks.

[delphi_ote]

I'm here for the chicks.
Yea. Where are they, anyway? :mad:

[LostAngeles]

I'm here for the chicks, beer, and food.

FYI, I took all the chicks.

[hellaeon]

I can't remember when or where, but when the Phelps gang threatened to picket some gay-run bar, the bar owners organised a big street party, with everybody in town invited. When the Phelps gang showed up (all three of them!), they were cordially welcomed, shown to their seats, offered food and drink etc.
They left after 15 minutes. The bar, meanwhile, had raised hundreds of dollars for charity, given everybody a good time and got everyone on their side.

One could ask why these people dont get angry at 'God' for all the rampamt bestial and homosexual sex in the animal kingdom he beautifully created only some 6000 years ago.

[hellaeon]

If you threaten to bury them with pig remains, it'll straighten 'em right up!

heh what was that blokes name? that was brutal, Jack 666 or something.

[delphi_ote]

I'm here for the chicks, beer, and food.

FYI, I took all the chicks.
No fair! Give them back! Give them back!

[CptColumbo]

I'm here for the chicks, beer, and food.

FYI, I took all the chicks.
Ya greedy, Mutha....

[aggle-rithm]

I'm here for the chicks, beer, and food.

FYI, I took all the chicks.


Keep them. I prefer women.

[AWPrime]

I take the chicks and the women.

[Bronze Dog]

As long as you leave me the... well, you know. I'm a dog, after all.

[NoZed Avenger]

As long as you leave me the... well, you know. I'm a dog, after all.

The toilet water? Wet grass? Rawhide?

[Bronze Dog]

I think it was almost a contender for one of the 7 dirty words you can't say on television. Apparently cliche rappers are fond of them, too.

[Manny]

So wait. Is the beer still available?

[Metullus]

So wait. Is the beer still available?
No, LA has been here for more than 10 minutes...

[delphi_ote]

So wait. Is the beer still available?
NOOOOOOOO! PLEASE DON'T TAKE THE BEER.

If the chicks, women, and food are gone, I'm going to need a lot of beer.

[Gravy]

This thread gets my vote for having strayed the farthest from the OP.

[WildCat]

This thread gets my vote for having strayed the farthest from the OP.
Did you know that Denmark has a state religion, blasphemy is a crime, and the Queen has control of the armed forces? ;)

[Piggy]

The One-Armed Queen is the third book in Jane Yolen's Great Alta series. It is a book that Yolen has claimed she never intended to write, so she purposefully killed off the main characters in White Jenna. Unfortunately for Yolen, and fortunately for us, there was a nagging question: "What happens in a kingdom after the great heroes are dead?" This led Yolen to write The One-Armed Queen, the story of Jenna's children.

[Belz...]

Did you know that Denmark has a state religion, blasphemy is a crime, and the Queen has control of the armed forces? ;)

Sweet. I love monarchies. Not as fair as democraties, but lots of fun, nonetheless. And lots of stories.

[Metullus]

* snip*... And lots of stories.
As had the World Trade Center. How's that for coming full circle?

[brodski]

As had the World Trade Center. How's that for coming full circle? you don't believe that whole "the world trade center was real buildings" myth do you? haven't you seen the evidence that it was just a hologram? :p

[Metullus]

you don't believe that whole "the world trade center was real buildings" myth do you? haven't you seen the evidence that it was just a hologram? :p
Well, the fact is that "Gullible" is my middle name.

[delphi_ote]

Well, the fact is that "Gullible" is my middle name.
Really?! Your parents have strange taste. It's an amazing coincidence in the context of this conversation.

I'm so glad I'm not as gullible as you are.

[Metullus]

Really?! Your parents have strange taste. It's an amazing coincidence in the context of this conversation.

I'm so glad I'm not as gullible as you are.
Lord be praised! Don't we all have so much for which we should be grateful?

[tsg]

This thread gets my vote for having strayed the farthest from the OP.

We have not yet begun to drift!

Okay, on the count of three, vi vs Emacs, ready

one

two ....

@#%!^%TNO CARRIER

[Regnad Kcin]

i love it when i can read something, feel somewhat swayed by it because it sounds logical, then see people post about 10 responses that show how silly it was for me to believe it, haha."Back, and to the left."

[delphi_ote]

We have not yet begun to drift!

Okay, on the count of three, vi vs Emacs, ready

one

two ....

@#%!^%TNO CARRIER
vi
:wq

[Piggy]

A monk asked Zhaozhou, "Does even unix have a Buddha-nature?"

Zhaozhou said, "Gnu".

[kookbreaker]

you don't believe that whole "the world trade center was real buildings" myth do you? haven't you seen the evidence that it was just a hologram? :p

Disinformationist! You should know by now that it has been proven that New York City does not exist!

[brodski]

Disinformationist! You should know by now that it has been proven that New York City does not exist!
hey, you're the one spreading disinformation, not only does New York City (Aka "new Amsterdam"!!11!!!) not exist, neither does new your state, nor in fact does York, (aka "Jorvik"!!!11!!1!11!1!111!1) it was all a practical joke by those bloody vikings.

[Euromutt]

Belgium doesn't exist (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/). Similarly, the state of Iowa was invented by Hollywood for the clean-cut kid who gets killed in war movies to be from.

[Z]

Belgium doesn't exist (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/). Similarly, the state of Iowa was invented by Hollywood for the clean-cut kid who gets killed in war movies to be from.

That was cool... I loved the pic from 'City of Lost Children'!

[brodski]

Belgium doesn't exist (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/). Similarly, the state of Iowa was invented by Hollywood for the clean-cut kid who gets killed in war movies to be from.

I knew it! Are they really stupid enough to think that we would believe that a nation named itself after the most disgusting swear word in the universe?

[Hawk one]

hey, you're the one spreading disinformation, not only does New York City (Aka "new Amsterdam"!!11!!!) not exist, neither does new your state, nor in fact does York, (aka "Jorvik"!!!11!!1!11!1!111!1) it was all a practical joke by those bloody vikings.

It's not as fun as the kind of practical joke where you cut off another man's head just because he's conveniently placed for a cut, but we got a big laugh of it nonetheless. Had you all going for centuries there!

Oh, and can you deliver our hologram equipment back now? We rented it from some nice Atlantic aliens, and they're almost overdue now. And boy, they've got some harsh penalty fees for not delivering on time.

[delphi_ote]

I knew it! Are they really stupid enough to think that we would believe that a nation named itself after the most disgusting swear word in the universe?
Holy Zarquon's singing fish!

[CptColumbo]

Holy Zarquon's singing fish!

Belgium, man, Belgium!

[brodski]

Belgium, man, Belgium!
I have reported this post for breach of rule 8.

:p

[brodski]

It's not as fun as the kind of practical joke where you cut off another man's head just because he's conveniently placed for a cut, but we got a big laugh of it nonetheless. Had you all going for centuries there!

Oh, and can you deliver our hologram equipment back now? We rented it from some nice Atlantic aliens, and they're almost overdue now. And boy, they've got some harsh penalty fees for not delivering on time.
Sorry, the holographic equipment is currently being stored in Dylan Avery's garage, disguised as a half empty pot of magnolia paint which he has no recollection of buying! Mwa ha ha....
Return of said holographic equipment can only be initiated after you have completed the necessary paperwork. Start by filling out form UT-90-oF1- "Request for requisition initiation request form". we'll go from there.

[Hawk one]

Sorry, the holographic equipment is currently being stored in Dylan Avery's garage, disguised as a half empty pot of magnolia paint which he has no recollection of buying! Mwa ha ha....
Return of said holographic equipment can only be initiated after you have completed the necessary paperwork. Start by filling out form UT-90-oF1- "Request for requisition initiation request form". we'll go from there.

OK, I'll fill it it out... Ooh, it requires red ink, I see. Well, I brought my axe with me, and you're certainly conveniently placed...

Perhaps you want to speed up the process a bit instead, no?

[brodski]

OK, I'll fill it it out... Ooh, it requires red ink, I see. Well, I brought my axe with me, and you're certainly conveniently placed...

Perhaps you want to speed up the process a bit instead, no?
I'm sorry, I could never allow a brutal mutilation of a bureaucrat unless you have filled out all of the proper forms, in triplicate.
And what does it mean to "speed up the process", I don't think i understand the concept? :p

[Hawk one]

I'm sorry, I could never allow a brutal mutilation of a bureaucrat unless you have filled out all of the proper forms, in triplicate.
And what does it mean to "speed up the process", I don't think i understand the concept? :p

Fine, have it your way.

*cuts off brodski's head with his axe, and uses his blood to fill out the forms, including a post-requisition of decapitation, because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission*

[brodski]

Fine, have it your way.

*cuts off brodski's head with his axe, and uses his blood to fill out the forms, including a post-requisition of decapitation, because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission*
I'll have you know sir, that I am half man, half Hydra- all bureaucrat. and now, I will have ti out your request for a holographic equipment requisition form on hold until someone has cleaned up all this blood.
Do you know how many forms I have to fill out in order to get a cleaner up here?

[rjh01]

I may have reported this post for breech of rules 0, 1, 2.