National Forensics Academy uses divining rods to search for bodies

[LFTKBS]

Hey, everyone. It's been a long time since my last visit but I thought you should all be aware of this latest waste of public money. I picked up the book "Bodies We've Buried" by Jarret Hallcox and Amy Welch. It seemed pretty normal and pro-science at first, until I got to this part, page 101 of the January 2006 edition.


"Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of "divining for bodies."

In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist; with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close, the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting pon the metal. Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on the following day during their burial recovery exercise."


I can't tell you how upset I am by this ridiculous waste of money and by the sheer ignorance of people who should know better. I am trying to find the contact info for Vass, Hallcox, and Welch so that I can tell them about the Challenge and the ideomotor effect. If you have any advice, please let me know.

[Zep]

By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance.

Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here?

[LFTKBS]

I found their email addresses on the University of Tennessee's site and am sending them some information on the ideomotor effect as well as a bit about the Challenge. This is sad.

Oh, and Zep - they use real human remains at the NFA.

[Zep]

Body Farm?

[LFTKBS]

Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Farm

[William Smith]

LFTKBS, do you have certainty that the authors Hallcox and Welch have got their facts straight and don't try to deceive Dr. Vass and their readers?

Did you also send an e-mail to Dr. Vass - as you intended to?

Hearing from him about this would remove all doubts.

Please keep us posted.

[Zep]

Yeah, that's the colloquial name for it, popularized by Patricia Cornwell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_FarmThen they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded! :)

[The_Fire]

Then they sodding-well DO know where the bodies are in advance! They are all very carefully mapped out and recorded! :)

They have to. Otherwise there's a chance that the more shady elements could start dumping "excess" bodies in the area and noone would know. Not to mention the fact that they have to keep a strict record of the "speciement" in order to use the finding later in forensics or at a trial.
Decomposition, insect infestation etc. are all recorded over a period of time.

[Mojo]

By reading carefully, it appears that this "result" was obtained during training of some sort. Which would suggest that the general or even specific location of the "body" (I presume they would use an animal carcass!!) would most likely be known in advance.

Do I need to spell this out any further for the rest of the skeptics here?Even if it was in a "live" situation, where the exact location of the body wasn't known, there would be other signs, such as disturbed earth if the body was buried (or the body itself if it wasn't!). The dowser would presumably have to know roughly where to look, so would be walking over an area where they already thought there was a body.

Looking at Vass's theory about how it works gives us another possible explanation: Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers. Or possibly these gases are simply interacting with Vass's nose.

[nathan]

Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.

(a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected)

(b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?

[Mojo]

surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

[William Smith]

I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

Guess we have to break out the big guns then.
Ladies and Gentlemen: The

Only
Magnetic
Necrogasic
Inspectior
That
Records
Overt
Nonsense.

http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/111805setback.html#i9

[Zep]

(a) 'magnetic charge'? Does this imply Dr Vass believes a decomposing body emits magnetic monopoles? (My understanding is that these have yet to be detected)

(b) surely a simple magentometer could be used rather than a cut up coat hanger, and thereby remove the ideomotor effect as a possible cause?Oh SHUSSHH!

Don't bring the party down like that with those pesky facts, for goodness sake!

:D :D

[drfrank]

I expect it's a special sort of magnetism that can't be detected by our closed-minded science.

Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics :D

Something like:

"Quantum mechanics says that we can't know where something is and how fast it is moving: fortunately, the bodies that we're searching for are stationary, and thus this is not a problem for us. Magnetic energy vibrations within the corpse induce polarising frequencies in the dowsing rods, and the resulting etheric energy causing the rods to move. This is very simple science, but close-minded skeptics continue to doubt it, despite undeniably positive results."

[LFTKBS]

Text of the email sent to Vass at vassaa@ornl.gov

Dr. Vass -

I read with great interest "Bodies We've Buried," the book about the
National Forensics Academy written by your colleagues Hallcox and
Welch. Much of the material is very interesting and informative, but
I was dismayed to see that you have expressed interest in divining the
location of corpses with divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell
you that this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the
"ideomotor effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton
on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. Unless the experiment
is double-blind and properly controlled, your foreknowledge of the
bodies's location will influence the motion of the rods, even though
you are not purposely doing it.

If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind,
properly controlled manner, you, the NFA, or ORNL is eligible to win
James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for
a lot of research, as well as bring the program and yourself worldwide
acclaim.

Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge is explained here.
All that is required is that you demonstrate that divining works
better than chance.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Looking forward to your reply

Text of the email sent to Hallcox & Welch, jhallcox@tennessee.edu, amywelch@tennessee.edu

Mr. Hallcox & Ms. Welch -

I bought your book "Bodies We've Buried" and couldn't put it down -
until page 101. There, you discuss Dr. Arpad Vass's theory of finding
corpses via divining rods. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that
this will absolutely not work. You've experienced the "ideomotor
effect," which is the influence of suggestion or expectaton on
involuntary and unconscious motor behavior.

If you can use divining rods to find corpses in a double-blind,
properly controlled manner, you or the academy is eligible to win
James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. That would pay for
a lot of equipment as well as bring the Academy, the University, and
yourselves worldwide acclaim.

To be honest, I am disheartened that you (rightfully) critique the
television show "CSI" for its unrealistic portrayal of forensic
science yet accept without reservation a technique like dowsing or
divining that has been debunked countless times and that has never
succeeded in a properly controlled setting.

Please tell me that you have already heard all this and that the next
edition of your book will correct these egregious errors.

Further information on the ideomotor effect is available here:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

Looking forward to your reply

[William Smith]

Thanks, LFTKBS.

Hopefully, you will receive replies soon.

[LFTKBS]

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.

Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into
consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I
have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the
students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the
exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a
plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will
send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad

[Mojo]

Ah, the sort that's best described using the words "energy", "vibrations" and "frequencies", along with at least one mandatory reference to quantum mechanics :D It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead.

I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity!

[LFTKBS]

It looks from the reply LFTKBS got that he's going for relativity instead.

I'll be interested in seeing how Newton's theories disprove part of relativity!


Yeah I don't even know what's going on with that.

[Nucular]

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.
Thank you for your kind comments and they are of course taken into
consideration. I am not sure what the authors of the book said since I
have not read it, but divining started out as a fun activity for the
students since it does 'seem' to work. Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory. Along with some of the
exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a
plausible explanation of the concept. I plan to publish on this and will
send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad
Interesting stuff, and good work LFTKBS - I often intend to email these types of things, and rarely get round to it.

100% success rate, hmmm..? Perhaps the reference to the Challenge should be embiggened somehow, as if he's got a good track record, plus a wacky theory, and seems genuine, he might actually be a potential applicant (as opposed to the pseudopotential applicants who turn up here bristling with excuses until they get banned).

But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity. And how that means dowsing works. And... oh, I wish he'd come here.

[William Smith]

I got a reply from Dr. Vass. I am composing another email which I will post before sending because this is both delicate and important.




Please do, LFTKBS.


[Dr. Vass's reply]
"...
Since I have 100% success rate in
finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques, I started doing
some research into the effects and found that there are logical
(explainable) reasons why it works - refer to Newton's theories which
disproves a part of Einstein's relativity theory.
..."


Holy crapparoly!

[LFTKBS]

I sent another email to Vass.

Dr. Vass -

Thank you for the quick reply.

Because science is at its best when vigorously challenged, I hope you
will not mind me asking you a couple of questions about your
methodology. You claim to have a 100% success rate in finding
corpses, but I wonder, what are the control parameters? Because the
burial of a body leaves certain visible clues - disturbed soil,
footprints, maybe even tools left next to the site, how are you
certain that you are not simply percieving these details? It is not
difficult to discover a body with divining rods when one already knows
where it is.

Since you asked about the book, here is what Hallcox and Welch wrote:

"Recently Dr. [Arpad] Vass, the same Dr. Vass responsible for
developing some of the most extraordinary capabilities used to
discover human remains, has fallen in love with the prospect of
"divining for bodies."

In order to do this, he takes a metal coat hanger like you would get
from the dry cleaner, the kind with the cardboard tube, and cuts it in
half, discarding the hook portion. Using the cardboard pieces as
handles, he ends up with two L-shaped diving instruments that can move
independently of the cardboard. He then holds his hands at his waist;
with the metal portion of the hangers pointing straight out, he walks
toward where he thinks a body might be decomposing. As he gets close,
the metal pieces will point inward. It is unbelievable, to say the
least, but we have both done this and it feels as if a force is acting
upon the metal. Dr. Vass is convinced that the gasses that are
released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of
the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.
Can you say new research? This is something the class will try on
the following day during their burial recovery exercise."

The James Randi Educational Foundation has a million dollar prize
available to anyone who can successfully dowse in the manner you
describe. You must only demonstrate that you can do what you claim.
I imagine a pig carcass or similar animal body would work, as they are
chemically identical to that of a human body, and you mention that the
detected material is gasses released from the body. If would be a
great boon to science if you would test your findings with the JREF,
not to mention that if you succeeded, you would have a million dollars
to do with as you see fit.

I am not an employee of the JREF nor a representative of that
organization. Further details are available here:
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

I also sent some info to Jeff and, of course, Randi. I'll quote Randi's response here if it's okay:

Dr. Vass is eminently eligible for our million-dollar prize, which he could win within an hour during a proper test.

The question is, does it have to be a human corpse?

I'd really like to see Vass or Hallcox/Welch tested, so any further suggestions along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

[LFTKBS]

New reply from Vass. He is very nice. :)

Well, the book doesn't quite represent what I said or do, but yes I
think the principle of how it works follows Newton's theories (has
nothing to do with gases by the way) quite well. I do not believe it has
anything to do with the paranormal - it just simply follows the rules of
physics. Tesla also hit upon some aspects of it. And yes, you are
correct that in some cases evidence of burial is present, but I use it
only in the most difficult situations (burial under house foundations,
driveways, garbage dumps, etc. where no telltale evidence exists.
Difficult to explain away when you find the exact location of a corpse
under an entire house or building foundation when even the informant
can't remember which house the victim was buried under. Arpad (By the
way, it does in fact work with pigs (even found some dinosaur bones),
but pigs are not as similar to humans in decomp products as once
thought. I will take your suggestions under consideration)

[William Smith]

Dowsing = Not paranormal, but abiding Laws of Physics?

However, his point of view will not affect his eligibility to the JREF Challenge.
Perhaps you should ask him straight on if he would like to apply for the Challenge.

[ChaosEngineer]

But yes. I'm dying to know which Newtonian theory he means, and exactly how it disproves part of relativity.

I just did some quick research on Newtonian Mechanics, and it looks like it's a pretty exciting field.

In the classic relativistic model, the speed of light is a constant in all frames of reference. But the new Newtonian model suggests that the speed of light can vary depending on the motion of the observer. (So, for example, if you travelled away from a light source at a speed of about 300,000 km/sec, the light from that source would appear to be standing still!)

If Newton is right, then we'll have to rethink our whole current understanding of Physics. I'm having trouble following some of the details, but his equations seem basically sound.

[gfunkusarelius]

what a bit of standard BS...i love how he says "Along with some of the exceptional unique properties of bone I think we have developed quite a plausible explanation of the concept. " this absolutely smacks of the very common "talk like you are very scientific and hope no one around you is" sort of flim-flammery that i detest. oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book...i bet! what a joke.

also, i am amazed how i see how often these con artists saying that whatever it is that no one else can do is actually really simple...but then they can never do it.

oh and its also cute how he keeps dropping names with no connection to his theory as if that somehow lends credibility to it.

[LFTKBS]

oh yeah, he is saving this info for his book

To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his.

[Mojo]

New reply from Vass. He is very nice. :)Hey! He's citing Tesla as well!

[gfunkusarelius]

To be fair, he's referring to the book by Hallcox and Welch that was mentioned in my first post, not an upcoiming book of his.
actually i was referring to his line
"I plan to publish on this and will send you a copy. Best wishes, Arpad"
it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back

[CFLarsen]

Body Farm?
BodyShop?

[William Smith]

...
it sounded to me a lot like the other people who have said "oh yeah, [insert pseudoscience here] is actually quite easy, i will get my machine finalized and get back to you." and then , of course, you never hear back

You may have a point. Let's give Dr. Vass a chance first. So far, it sounds promising.
Let's hope for another prelim.

[strathmeyer]

BodyShop?

Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?

[William Smith]

Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?

No.

[FramerDave]

All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this.

I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing?

I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this.

[William Smith]

All the woo crap aside, what really bothers me is that fact that my tax dollars, or those of the fair people of Tennessee, is being used to support garbage like this.

I realize that the world of academia plays a bit free and loose with ideas; that's how how progress is made and new ideas are nurtured. But surely there has to be some accountability in the system. Do the good doctor's colleagues and superiors know about his wonderful ideas and research? What do they think of him spending university money on this sort of thing?

I'd love to hear what the head of Dr. Vass's department thinks of this.

Good idea. Will you contact him?

[FramerDave]

Good idea. Will you contact him?


Sure, why not? Give me some time to dig around and find contact info, etc. I'll post and let you know.

[William Smith]

Sure, why not? Give me some time to dig around and find contact info, etc. I'll post and let you know.

LFTKBS might be able and willing to help you.

[FramerDave]

Interesting. It seems that Jarrett Hallcox, the NFA Project Manager, is the same Hallcox who wrote the book.

[William Smith]

Interesting. It seems that Jarrett Hallcox, the NFA Project Manager, is the same Hallcox who wrote the book.

Does this fuel your fire?

[LFTKBS]

I am more interested in Vass taking the Challenge at this point than going to his supervisors. He has thus far been open and forthright about his research, erroneous as it may be, and I'd rather not have him clam up and refuse to speak to laymen such as myself. Threatening him or challenging him in that respect will not stop him from continuing in such folly; we have to gently show him how he is simply incorrect.

[FramerDave]

Well first I thought that Wallcox was simply a credulous writer without a lot of scientific background. Given his position, this does change how I'll approach things.

[FramerDave]

Well, here's the text of the message I just sent.

Mr. Hallcox,

I highly respect the work done at the National Forensics Laboratory, and in some way that I’m sure is strange for a layman such as myself, I find it fascinating. I appreciate the fact that law enforcement is always up against tough odds, and always needs to gain an advantage through science.

In light of this, I was somewhat surprised to read in “Bodies We’ve Buried” that one of your staff, Dr. Vass, purports to be able to find buried bodies through dowsing and is also teaching this technique. While the idea of finding hidden water, precious metals or stones, pipes and other objects has been around for a very long time, there is virtually no scientific backing for its effectiveness. No unbiased test has ever shown the results to be any greater than what would be achieved by chance and there is no tenable explanation for any mechanism through which it might work. Beyond vague references to quantum mechanics or “harmonics” no proponent has ever produced a workable, testable theory behind dowsing.

Considering your position as manager of the NFA and the LEIC’s mission I would hope that you would not lend any credence to dowsing or budget any taxpayer funds to its research or teaching.

Thank you

[William Smith]

Good job, FramerDave. I look forward to the reply - and its duration.

[Ladewig]

Come on, you guys haven't seen the CSI where there were extra bodies in the body farm?


I thought that was "Law and Order."

[Zep]

I've seen the CSI episode set on the Body Farm, where an additional body appears (murdered, of course).

Like that show a lot. I realise it's not "real forensic life" and that DNA matches don't take a few seconds at the click of a mouse, but it doesn't flinch at the icky side of forensics, and actually encourages fact-based critical thinking.

[Ladewig]

I've seen the CSI episode set on the Body Farm, where an additional body appears (murdered, of course).

There was a L&O episode as well.

Like that show a lot. I realise it's not "real forensic life" and that DNA matches don't take a few seconds at the click of a mouse,

The next thing you'll be telling us is that when computers match fingerprints, they don't flash every fingerprint in the entire database on the screen for a fraction of a second.

The Las Vegas version is a bit better than the ham-fisted overacting one sees on the Miami version.

[Zep]

The next thing you'll be telling us is that when computers match fingerprints, they don't flash every fingerprint in the entire database on the screen for a fraction of a second.That's right. Nothing like real life - they only flash every 5 seconds or so. :)

Also unreal is the "lab" situation - dim blue lights, glass walls, monitor walls for the computers, "space-age" IKEA racking... It would probably be hell for doing real CSI work. Good TV though!

The Las Vegas version is a bit better than the ham-fisted overacting one sees on the Miami version.Agreed! Although I like the New York one as well - the characters are VERY Noo Yawk. I'd also like to see the versions exchange characters temporarily too, for a bit of added interest.

[Thing]

And every video image can be 'enhanced' indefinitely, so you can read a license plate in the reflection in the cornea of someone whose entire body was a two-pixel smudge in the original.

[William Smith]

And every video image can be 'enhanced' indefinitely, so you can read a license plate in the reflection in the cornea of someone whose entire body was a two-pixel smudge in the original.

You do understand this is fiction, right?

[steenkh]

You do understand this is fiction, right?
You must be kidding! I saw something in a film, and surely they would not show it if it was possible?
:p

[Ed Baehr]

I'm stunned. I worked in the forensic end of law enforcement for 34 years as a latent print examiner. I just got off the phone with someone who attended the NFA about a year and a half ago and he told me that dowsing was discussed briefly as a method of finding water. Apparently they have expanded their horizons to include cadavers. Frankly, with CSI making it look like forensic science can do magic, forensic experts spend a pile of time explaining to juries about the real world. No, everything you touch isn't covered with identifiable fingerprints...No, DNA isn't going to happen in a 20 minute examination...No, the fingerprint computer on CSI isn't real....etc.
In my time in law enforcement, I saw the fingerprint business take huge strides and yes, with a very small piece of print you might "hit" someone in a database as large as the FBI's and development techniques have improved greatly but it's time consuming and exacting work.
I fervently hope that they apply for the JREF challenge and clear up their thinking and teaching.
Ed Baehr

[Thing]

Ah, that'll be the CSI effect (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0923_040923_csi.html)

[Ed Baehr]

Ah, that'll be the CSI effect (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0923_040923_csi.html)
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy crime fiction and can usually get past forensic errors but the popularity of that show in particular has unrealistically raised the expectations of not only the public but prosecutors as well.
As far as the NFA, I'm bothered that someone teaching the business of good science has embraced pseudoscience.

[LFTKBS]

Update from Randi and Dr. Vass.


Dr. Vass, one of my readers, Jordan, has mentioned to you the million-dollar prize offered by this foundation. I assure you that your dowsing-for-bodies claim is eligible for this prize, particularly in view of your statement that you have had “100% success rate in finding clandestine corpses using divining techniques.” We would of course not hold you to such a rate of success, being satisfied with only a statistically significant performance. And, should you feel that your accepting such a large prize might damage your academic and/or professional standing, you are of course free to donate the million to any school or charity of your choice. We await your response with interest.

I thank you for your continued interest and will take your suggestion under consideration, but could not possibly contemplate doing this activity until near the end of the year due to prior commitments and travel obligations. Arpad

You know, there are plenty of researchers who would jump at the chance for a million-dollar grant, especially one that could be won in a single-afternoon.

[William Smith]

You know, there are plenty of researchers who would jump at the chance for a million-dollar grant, especially one that could be won in a single-afternoon.

Perhaps Dr. Vass does not care for peanuts. :rolleyes:
LFTKBS, how 'bout you contact him again by the end of the year?

"Dear Dr. Vass,
I hope your undoubtedly busy schedule will now permit you to consider an application for..."



100% success rate my tuchus.

[Mojo]

You know, there are plenty of researchers who would jump at the chance for a million-dollar grant, especially one that could be won in a single-afternoon.Well, I imagine that the test would be quite difficult to set up, involving, as it must, obtaining several dead bodies and concealing them in such a way that they can't be detected via means other than the dowsing (smell, for example).

[Hagrok]

Well, I imagine that the test would be quite difficult to set up, involving, as it must, obtaining several dead bodies and concealing them in such a way that they can't be detected via means other than the dowsing (smell, for example).
I suspect getting some whole pigs from the local butcher would do just as well. However, they'd get pretty ripe in Florida in a short period of time...

[Outhere]

Aren't there corpse-sniffing dogs for finding people recently buried or covered by rubble after a building collapse? And what about ground-penetrating radar for older burials where obvious clues have disappeared? Why do we need any kind of woo with coat hangers when there are well-known but admittedly more expensive methods that deliver with greater accuracy?

[steenkh]

You know, there are plenty of researchers who would jump at the chance for a million-dollar grant, especially one that could be won in a single-afternoon.
There would be the preliminary test and the official test. That will be two afternoons plus a lot of work agreeing on protocol. As Mojo has pointed out, it will also be dificult to set up the test. It might also be a prerequisite that the bodies would have been at the same place for some time, which will only make the test more difficult and time-consuming to set up.

[Mojo]

I suspect getting some whole pigs from the local butcher would do just as well. However, they'd get pretty ripe in Florida in a short period of time...Do they make any claim that they can distinguish human from non-human corpses? If so, they could be asked to find human bodies using dead pigs as a control.

[steenkh]

Do they make any claim that they can distinguish human from non-human corpses? If so, they could be asked to find human bodies using dead pigs as a control.
There might be ethical problems involved in testing with human corpses.

At least in Denmark, we have laws against what is called "unseemly handling" of corpses.

[NobbyNobbs]

I thank you for your continued interest and will take your suggestion under consideration, but could not possibly contemplate doing this activity until near the end of the year due to prior commitments and travel obligations. Arpad


This is an opportunity. What I'd do, LFTKBS, is to take advantage of the fact that the professor has given you an opening. Schedule him now, before his end-of-the-year committments build up. Schedule time to discuss a protocol for the experiment. That way, he's penciled you in and loses that excuse to back out later.

[William Smith]

Do they make any claim that they can distinguish human from non-human corpses? If so, they could be asked to find human bodies using dead pigs as a control.

Let Dr. Vass clear his busy schedule first.
After he applied we can all weigh in on the protocol negotiations. I'd really like to listen to Dr. Vass' take on how his "technique" works. He most likely has the educational background to come up with more than "I don't know how it works, I just know it does."
His name dropping had entertaining but not clarifying moments.

Of course, somebody with a claim of "100% accuracy" (!) should easily be able to draw out a protocol to meet JREF's need for a "statistically significant performance".

Any response from Mr. Hallcox yet, FramerDave?

[FramerDave]

Any response from Mr. Hallcox yet, FramerDave?

Not a peep.

Two guesses: He's embarassed by the whole thing and doesn't want to discuss it, or he read my email and dismissed it with a snort and a "Who the h3ll does he think he is?"

Right now, due to certain circumstances, my respect for law enforcement types is a bit low, so I tend to think it's option 2.

Does anyone remember some show some years ago, maybe 20/20, that showed a dowsing rod device a bunch of police departments had purchased? It was supposed to be able to find people hiding behind walls or pretty much anywhere. They did a double-blind test and it failed miserably.

[joller]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before, but if the guy can detect dead bodies with a coat hanger due to changes in magnetic field that affect the coat hanger, why would he use a coat hanger and not a top of the line devices used to measure fluctuations in the strength of magnetic felds?
He's supposed to be a serious scientist - why doesn't he use serious equipment then?
Besides he said he 'suspected' what the reason was, so does it mean that he'c claiming he found a method to do something extraordinary, he suspects he knows the mechanism, but he never bothered to validate his hypothesis?
Dr. Vass in convinced that the gasses that are released from the body create a magnetic charge that is opposite of the earth's magnetic field, which interacts with the divining hangers.
Create magnetic charge - that shouldn't be difficult to detect, should it?

[nathan]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before, but if the guy can detect dead bodies with a coat hanger due to changes in magnetic field that affect the coat hanger, why would he use a coat hanger and not a top of the line devices used to measure fluctuations in the strength of magnetic felds?

yes, quite. My question too. this is clearly some new kind of magnetism undetectable by normal means :)

[Hellbound]

nathan:

Stealth magnetism technology ;)

[Zep]

I suspect the movement of the magic hangers is directly proportional to the flow of salary dollars into this guy's bank account...

[gr8white]

It occurred to me while reading thru this thread that there's a much simpler way to test this claim.

Why bother with trying to find hidden bodies by holding the device in one's hands? The claim is that the dowsing device is affected somehow, magnetically perhaps, by the presence of a dead body. Why not just suspend the device so that it is stable but free to move and move the corpse into the range where it can be detected (if the claim is true)? Wouldn't that effectively test the claim without all the bother of hiding the bodies?

[Nucular]

It occurred to me while reading thru this thread that there's a much simpler way to test this claim.

Why bother with trying to find hidden bodies by holding the device in one's hands? The claim is that the dowsing device is affected somehow, magnetically perhaps, by the presence of a dead body. Why not just suspend the device so that it is stable but free to move and move the corpse into the range where it can be detected (if the claim is true)? Wouldn't that effectively test the claim without all the bother of hiding the bodies?
Ah, but you see, the vibrations are magnified by your body, or something, and the dowser is therefore part of the system, or whatever.

There will always be ad hoc reasons given as to why people need to be touching the ouija planchette, holding the pendulum, or strolling with the dowsing rods. The reasons will depend themselves upon the particular flavour of woo espoused by the reason-giver. :boggled:

[gr8white]

Ah, but you see, the vibrations are magnified by your body, or something, and the dowser is therefore part of the system, or whatever.


If the guy was really interested in testing whether this works and his theory was as stated, this would be much better as a starting point (JREF challenge aside).

[Yahzi]

I thank you for your continued interest and will take your suggestion under consideration, but could not possibly contemplate doing this activity until near the end of the year due to prior commitments and travel obligations.
Has anyone explained to him that a Nobel Prize will almost certainly follow from the JREF challenge?

Or can we assume Dr. Arpad is smart enough to figure that out on his own?

He doesn't have time to earn a million dollars. Right.

Just how ****** stupid do these people think we are?

[Yahzi]

Here is my letter, to Jarrett Hallcox (Project Manager at NFA):


Dear Dr. Hallcox,

I have read that Dr. Arpad Vass has claimed he can find bodies by dowsing. I would like to know how this fits into your project schedule.

No doubt you are aware that the James Randi Educational Foundation offers a million dollar prize for anyone who can douse for anything. But hopefully you understand this is just the beginning.

Surely Nobel prizes must be waiting for anyone who can so thoroughly upend the basics of physics, chemistry, and the mathematics of scale. Not to mention the incredible value such a new and powerful technique would have for forensic science world-wide.

May I take it for granted that you are doing everything in your power to free Dr. Vass' schedule so that he may pursue the JREF Challenge, and set your institution on the path to world fame?

Because Dr. Vass seemed to indicate he had other commitments. I find it hard to believe that anything could be more important than the complete refutation of the Standard Model of physics. Or even merely the confirmation that information can be communicated from a dead body to a living person in a hitherto unknown fashion.

I eagerly await your confirmation that this groundbreaking science is where it properly belongs: in the forefront of your research efforts.

[Gr8wight]

It occurred to me while reading thru this thread that there's a much simpler way to test this claim.

Why bother with trying to find hidden bodies by holding the device in one's hands? The claim is that the dowsing device is affected somehow, magnetically perhaps, by the presence of a dead body. Why not just suspend the device so that it is stable but free to move and move the corpse into the range where it can be detected (if the claim is true)? Wouldn't that effectively test the claim without all the bother of hiding the bodies?

Who? Who said that?

[gr8white]

Who? Who said that?

Who said what?

Didn't mean to cause any confusion, I didn't even know there was a gr8Wight lurking around. I've had this handle for some time tho I haven't done much posting. (my domain is gr8white dot com)

Ken
I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it.
- Groucho Marx

[Yahzi]

My head doth hurt. How will we ever keep straight the great zombie and the great shark?

:D

[born]

I admit, I am no authority on the subject of dowsing, but didn't dowsing have something to do with the presence of water?
Are all corpses wet? I am a little confused here.

[Plasmadog]

I admit, I am no authority on the subject of dowsing, but didn't dowsing have something to do with the presence of water?

Well that would make it nice and simple, wouldn't it? The problem is though that dowsing is about finding whatever the dowser wants to find. That is very often water, simply due to the fact that is difficult to not find water when you look for it, but other items/substances are also commonly sought.

[William Smith]

Here is my letter, to Jarrett Hallcox (Project Manager at NFA):

(Applause.)



I even forgive you the typo.

[patchbunny]

Do they make any claim that they can distinguish human from non-human corpses? If so, they could be asked to find human bodies using dead pigs as a control.
Vass claims to be able to detect dinosaur bones, as well as pigs. I would think then that human bones available from medical sources could be used, as well as a fossil or two. No need for the whole body.

[Yahzi]

(Applause.)

Five days, no response.

[Dogwood]

Vass claims to be able to detect dinosaur bones, as well as pigs. I would think then that human bones available from medical sources could be used, as well as a fossil or two. No need for the whole body.

So fossils produce gasses now? (No jokes about your in-laws.)

[William Smith]

Here is my letter, to Jarrett Hallcox (Project Manager at NFA):

Anything yet, Yahzi?



(I am in the process of digesting the thread mentioned in your sig. I still lack proper words. So far, Kudos for your guts.)

[Yahzi]

Anything yet, Yahzi?

Nope.

[William Smith]

To pass the time until a reply from Dr. Vass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

[William Smith]

(Sound of crickets.)





Anything yet, Yahzi?

[William Smith]

(Sound of crickets.)





Anything yet, Yahzi?

[FramerDave]

No response to my email of last spring either. Anyone surprised?

[Major Major]

No action in this in . . five months! Hm.

Since the NFA is a serious scientific institution, one would think they would be constantly on the prowl for research funds. The silence from them so far is indicative of something.

Or have they been given up on?

:blackcat:

[Thurber]

William “Bill” Bass, University of Tennessee professor emeritus and founder of the Body Farm, is now coauthor of two books, “Carved in Bone” and “Flesh and Bone.” The books are published under the name Jefferson Bass. This name is a combination of the names of the two authors, Jon Jefferson and Bill Bass. The books are mysteries with the investigator being Dr. Bill Brockton, forensic anthropologist.

In a section entitled “What’s up-and-coming in forensic science?” at the back of the first book, “Carved in Bone,” is this paragraph: “’Divining’ for corpses: Surprising as it sounds, an age-old folkloric technique for locating groundwater – called ‘divining,’ dowsing or ‘water witching’ – is getting a high-tech investigation as a technique for locating buried bodies. Most people who divine for water use a forked, green stick, which – properly wielded – will purportedly twitch when it’s carried over groundwater. A remarkably similar phenomenon seems to occur with angled metal wires in the proximity of decaying corpses: the wires twitch, cross, separate, or swing from side to side. One theory currently being investigated by an Oak Ridge National Laboratory research scientist is that as a body decomposes, chemical changes transform it into something akin to a giant battery, whose electromagnetic field affects the wires. Once the mechanism is understood, it – like the chemistry of decomposition of gases – could be harnessed to create a sophisticated portable body detector.”

It seems to me that we should soon be able to use all of the cemeteries in the country as a source of alternative energy.

And who is this unnamed Oak Ridge National Laboratory research scientist to whom Bass, founder of University of Tennessee’s Anthropology Research Facility, refers? Yup, Arpad Vass.

According to Kevin Dalby, staff writer for The Daily Beaconline, a UT student newspaper, 2007-01-31, Vass arrived at the University of Tennessee in 1988 and “came under the wing of Body Farm creator William Bass (now retired). Since then, he has focused on developing a low-cost, easy-to-use method of determining time since death—a great boon for law enforcement agencies attempting to determine guilt and gain convictions. During his tenure at the farm, Vass says the margin of error in determining time since death has been reduced from weeks and months to plus or minus 12 hours.”

Odd how, having just finished reading the Jefferson Bass book “Carved in Bone” and then stumbling upon the “Divining for corpses” nugget at the back of the book, my view of the book shifted. Doing a quick internet search, I found this forum on Randi’s site. Nice to make your acquaintance. Sorry that it is under these circumstances.

[suncrafter]

It should be easy enough to test. I wonder why no one takes the challenge?!? :rolleyes:

[Decker]

I just found this thread via the Googlemobile and thought I'd chime in.

I recently met with Dr. Vass and he filled me in on what he calls the Divining Phenomenon. He showed me how it works and what he thinks the science is behind it. It was actually quite fascinating.

He had a femur, a geode, and just a plain rock lined up with about 6 feet in between each one. He had two metal rods with hollowed out pens that he held onto, that way his hand wouldn't touch the rods and they were able to freely move in the pen's chamber. He had a steady pace and walked over each one. It crossed over the femur, crossed on the quartz geode, and did not do anything over the rock. He got out some tin foil, put it over the femur, walked over it: did not cross. Put it under the femur: did not cross. He then walked parallel with the femur (no tin foil this time) about 20 feet in between, holding the furthest rod a wavelength higher than the other, and the rod actually pointed towards the femur as Dr. Vass walked. The damn thing actually kept pointing towards the femur until his head stopped its path.

I got it and tried it out. I remembered the current debunk of ideomotor effect, so I made sure to have the handles angled at a 45 degree downwards. They still crossed, albeit a little past the femur as the angle appeared to have changed the vector. They actually climbed up the inclination.

So, I asked him what he thought we were possibly seeing. I can't remember exactly the details of what he said, a lot of it was over this f. anth's head (haha), but it was something involving resonance and telluric waves and how bone (human or not) somehow scattered those waves through the bone's specific resonance.

Curiously enough, he said it does not work at night because the telluric waves reverse or some such. As well, underground electrical lines and water moving through underground metal pipes will interfere with the process.

He then told me that even though he had been successful using divining, he used it as a last resort because the courts and scientific community wouldn't look highly on it, only using it because it was more important to use any method plausible to find the corpse rather than not.

He informed me that he was currently trying to figure out a way to construct a portable machine that does the same thing as the rods in order for the hypothesis to be more palatable to the scientific community.

Whether he succeeds or he figures out something that debunks himself, it was an interesting demonstration. I'd cut the man a little slack, he has given a lot to this field. Some of you are being kind of mean towards the guy. I speak from experience, it's not easy being a scientist that's not only being pressured by law enforcement but also by victims' families, so doing anything legal to get results is sometimes necessary.

[Mojo]

He had a femur, a geode, and just a plain rock lined up with about 6 feet in between each one. He had two metal rods with hollowed out pens that he held onto, that way his hand wouldn't touch the rods and they were able to freely move in the pen's chamber. He had a steady pace and walked over each one. It crossed over the femur, crossed on the quartz geode, and did not do anything over the rock. He got out some tin foil, put it over the femur, walked over it: did not cross. Put it under the femur: did not cross. He then walked parallel with the femur (no tin foil this time) about 20 feet in between, holding the furthest rod a wavelength higher than the other, and the rod actually pointed towards the femur as Dr. Vass walked. The damn thing actually kept pointing towards the femur until his head stopped its path.

I got it and tried it out. I remembered the current debunk of ideomotor effect, so I made sure to have the handles angled at a 45 degree downwards. They still crossed, albeit a little past the femur as the angle appeared to have changed the vector. They actually climbed up the inclination.


Did you, or he, try this blinded (i.e. when neither of you knew where the objects were)? Did it still work if you didn't know where the objects were?

[William Smith]

...
I'd cut the man a little slack, he has given a lot to this field. Some of you are being kind of mean towards the guy. I speak from experience, it's not easy being a scientist that's not only being pressured by law enforcement but also by victims' families, so doing anything legal to get results is sometimes necessary.

It's not the point that we're allegedly have been mean to the guy.

The point is: Should this work under blinded conditions, he'd be a million dollars richer. Easily. He knows he would. Obviously.
And still, he does not apply.

[Mojo]

He had a femur, a geode, and just a plain rock lined up with about 6 feet in between each one. He had two metal rods with hollowed out pens that he held onto, that way his hand wouldn't touch the rods and they were able to freely move in the pen's chamber. He had a steady pace and walked over each one. It crossed over the femur, crossed on the quartz geode, and did not do anything over the rock.


Actually, this makes a test much easier. One of problems with setting up a test of whether Vass can dowse for decomposing corpses was the mere involvement of the corpses, and the very real possibility that even if not visible they could perhaps be located by smell (Vass has apparently also suggested that the dowsing works because of gases released by the decomposition).

If he can tell the difference between a quartz geode and a plain rock, then it should be very simple to set up a test. No ethical problems regarding use of corpses, no unpleasant and inconvenient smells messing up the blinding - just some rocks.

[Big Les]

As I've said before, woo is rife amongst archaeologists, a fair few of whom either believe in dowsing, or are not particularly sceptical about the idea. I was one of them. Forensic anthropology I see as a fairly closely related discipline, with a fair bit of art amongst the science. It seems woo is inseparable from anything involving the dead.

I did think one of the English Midlands universities ran a body farm of sorts, but it must have used pigs (http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auid:1481743).

Anyway, this guy can give all the bogus mechanisms he likes - why doesn't he want a million dollars?

ETA - ^I don't see what ethical problems there can possibly be, since that facilities very raison d'etre is the use of donated human bodies for the advancement of knowledge.

[H3LL]

Decker, Dr.Vass' powers must have rubbed off on you as you managed to find a thread that everyone else thought was dead and burried.





Googledowsing? I like it. :D


.

[Silly Green Monkey]

It's strange, I never met any of these people while studying there.

[Decker]

Decker, Dr.Vass' powers must have rubbed off on you as you managed to find a thread that everyone else thought was dead and burried.

Googledowsing? I like it. :D


Haha! Awesome. That did give me a huge chuckle. Cheers! ;)

Did you, or he, try this blinded (i.e. when neither of you knew where the objects were)? Did it still work if you didn't know where the objects were?

No. The objects were on the floor and we would've tripped over them. Though, I guess we could've done the part where you walk parallel while blindfolded. I didn't think about it, though. I may go out to the cemetery later and check it out. Hopefully I won't piss people off doing that.

I could care either way. If it works, that's cool. If it doesn't, oh well. I'm a rather indifferent person like that, I guess. lol

(Vass has apparently also suggested that the dowsing works because of gases released by the decomposition).

I think that was one of his initial thoughts, but I think he's moved on to the telluric wave hypothesis.

The point is: Should this work under blinded conditions, he'd be a million dollars richer. Easily. He knows he would. Obviously.
And still, he does not apply.

He seems to stay pretty busy. He accepts case work from all over the world. I dunno'.

[Ladewig]

I may go out to the cemetery later and check it out. Hopefully I won't piss people off doing that.

I c


You may encounter some difficulty. Some of the graves will contain intact bodies while others will contain only ashes.

A simpler test would be to get some bones from the butcher and dowse for those. Of course, if you follower the advice of the previous posters and do a double blind test, you'll need an assistant to hide the bones in a paper bag or some other device.

[Ladewig]

He seems to stay pretty busy. He accepts case work from all over the world. I dunno'.

You don't know?! If you had a skill that you had developed to the point that you charge money to perform this skill, would there be any reason in the world why you wouldn't leap at the chance to earn one million dollars for one days work?

[Major Major]

When this thread began (and look at the dates), there was an initial flurry of correspondence, with Vass saying that he would get around to it when he cleared his backlog of work.


Has anyone communicated with him again more recently? It could be pointed out to him that the expiration date for applying for this grant is fast approaching.

[Coveredinbeeees]

No. The objects were on the floor and we would've tripped over them. Though, I guess we could've done the part where you walk parallel while blindfolded. I didn't think about it, though. I may go out to the cemetery later and check it out. Hopefully I won't piss people off doing that.


I think you may have misunderstood Mojo's question. My apologies if you were simply being sarcastic. By blinded he did not mean literally blindfolded but that the test would be a blind test. That is to say, have the objects under a plastic bucket or simply covered by something so that you cannot tell if object A is the geode, the femur or the rock by looking. This requires a helper to place the objects randomly so that you do not know which is which. You then do your walk past and see if the rods point at A, B or C. Once you have determined which container you think the rods are pointing at you check to see if it was the femur, the rock or the geode.

It is only by not knowing which object is which during the test that you can truly eliminate the ideomotor effect. To make the test double blind you simply ensure that your assistant, the one who randomly places the objects into their covered containers before each run, is not in the room during the run.

To make it more solid still, don't actually check the container yourself. Simply make a note of which container you think the femur was in on each run. If your assistant keeps a note of which container the femur was actually in each run then you can do a series of runs and check your results at the end.

Everything I know about double blinding I learned by lurking on these forums and you could easily do the same yourself. If you can perform a series of 7 runs and find the femur every time in a double blind test then you could soon be a millionaire.