Doing the least to save your life...

[Ducky]

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=6 bgcolor=#666699 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#666699 size=2><b>Introduction by Luke T.: &nbsp;</b><i>

We are witnessing an explosion of pushers of magic pills, waters, and elixirs reminiscent of the travelling snake oil salesmen of the late 19th century. Cure-all books which upon close examination we find have no cures in them, and are nothing but a bounty of vitriol for the modern science which has lengthened our lifespans.

For those unfortunates who are sentenced with a life-threatening disease, it is a time of vulnerability and desperation. Here is one man's personal war against a host of predators waiting to exploit that fear.

"There's no substitute for guts." - Bear Bryant

Link to original topic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=49403)</i></font></td></tr></table>



My paper. (http://www.nocommercialpotential.org/for_fowlsound/SpinePaper.pdf)

It's not written as well as it could have been. It's not as scientific, in that it does not go point by point through alternative medicines and treatments, as it could have been. It's not very polite at times.

It's my story, and it's how I feel about those that would offer me alternative medicine in lieu of proper medical treatments for my cancer.

Read at your leisure. I hope you enjoy it. There's some great pictures of my spine in there, both before the surgery and after.

I'll quote a little here:

I spent the next few months learning to walk again. I underwent 24 sessions of radiation therapy and several bone marrow biopsies, MRI scans, CT scans, bone surveys (which are essentially an x-ray of every part of you from several angles), and blood tests. You see, Solitary Plasmacytoma of Bone has a 50% chance of progressing to Multiple Myeloma in 10 years. Once that progression has happened, 37% of those diagnosed make it past 5 years. Currently, there is a second tumor forming in my right arm, but with the help of my hard working doctors, it was found early and will be treated.
Because of all the hard work of my nuerosurgeon, oncologist, nurses, and me I was walking again by February of 2005 without a cane and had returned to work at a new job. A job that now pays for medical insurance.
Without the scientific method none of my treatments would have been available to save me. 100 years ago I would have died as an infant, and 50 years ago I would have been paralyzed - if not dead. What I mean specifically is that without properly blinded studies, peer reviewed publication, the removal of emotion when gathering knowledge (removing confirmation bias and cherry picking of evidence), and the self correcting nature of scientific advancement there would have been absolutely no chance for me.
You see, medical researchers come up with a hypothesis based on observed phenomenon. They then devise a test in which they cannot influence the end result, and then publish their findings for their peers to critique. If they did something wrong, it is caught, and more testing is done. In fact, more testing is done anyway. This is called Replication. That means if you have devised a study showing how much more effectively and quickly your pet rabbit learns to foil bungling hunters by watching cartoons, then I will also replicate that test to ensure the results are genuine. If they’re not, we’re going to have conflicting outcomes, and more and more study will happen until we get to the bottom of the true nature of how rabbits foil hunters.
Let me boil it down: science sticks to the facts in a way that negates whether those testing have an opinion about their studies, and it ensures that if they do botch it it will be caught and corrected. This is the reality of how science works. It is also the foundation to every single one of the modern conveniences you and I take for granted every day. Cars, refrigerators, televisions, telephones, cell phones, computers, antibiotics, vaccines, satellites, airplanes, indoor plumbing, skyscrapers, shoe insoles, birth control, iPods, compact discs, DVDs...
The list can go on for pages and pages. Science is leading us to more comfortable, productive, healthy lives and careers. It allows us to do things that would seem to be magic to someone from 200 years ago.
Recently, an acquaintance responded to my chiding of the belief in ghosts and those that claim to talk to the dead “Ah the faith you all place in science. It doesn’t explain everything you know.” I simply responded to such an absurd statement by pointing out that science had fixed both my and her spines. She has rods and screws in her spine also, correcting a very severe case of scoliosis. She walks upright, has a straight spine and leads a healthy happy life because of science, and yet her attack on science was that it does not know everything.
Here’s a news flash: science admits that. It continues to progress precisely because of that. You see, explaining “everything” isn’t the goal. The goal is to continue to learn all we can on observed phenomenon with empirical data gathered from blinded study published openly for peer review and based on testable hypothesis.
Quite frankly to live your life in debt to science and then throw insults at science out of misunderstanding it is such an insult I don’t know where to begin. Which leads me to the point of this paper.


After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM.

Sorry about that.

Cheers.

[Anti_Hypeman]

I read it and I have nothing negative to say about it so I will say nothing at all.

[brodski]

My paper. (http://www.nocommercialpotential.org/for_fowlsound/SpinePaper.pdf)

It's not written as well as it could have been. It's not as scientific, in that it does not go point by point through alternative medicines and treatments, as it could have been. It's not very polite at times.

It's my story, and it's how I feel about those that would offer me alternative medicine in lieu of proper medical treatments for my cancer.

Read at your leisure. I hope you enjoy it. There's some great pictures of my spine in there, both before the surgery and after.

I'll quote a little here:



After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM.

Sorry about that.

Cheers.


Thanks for that Fowlsound, it said all of the things I wanted to say to the rule 8's who tried (successfully unfortunately) to push SCAM onto my sister when she had cancer. Unfortunately at that time I was too young (and emotional) to really articulate what I wanted to say, so i spent a lot of time very frustrated, except on the one occasion when I did actually resort to physical violence. My youth and emotional stat providing a pretty good shield from serious repercussions.
I'm, none too proud of what I did, but I have to admit, it felt good.

[Dogdoctor]

Yowza fowldood,
I had a suspicion those were implants you either had or currently have. I guess things could be worse. Damn.. Not sure what to say. I read your story and of course you are preaching to the choir here so to speak but right on. I will pray to FSM that you continue to win all your battles.

[rikzilla]

Good luck to you FS. You have a quiet steady courage about you and I am inspired by it. You'll be missed at TAM. Get better soon!

-z

[Rolfe]

After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM.

Sorry about that.Sorry too, Fowlsound. I'm rooting for you.

Rolfe.

[kmortis]

Dude...um...dude. No, really, Dude.

ETA: The MRIs of the spine "before" I sat :eye-poppi for a good minute. So, again, Dude!

[Terry]

My thoughts are with you, Fowlsound. No excuses for TAM5, okay?

[Genesius]

Jumpin' Jeebus!!

The pics of your spine made me reach for a handfull of Advil just for the sympathy pain.

I publicly bow before you in recognition of your courage. I hope I'd show the same were I in your shoes. Please pardon me if I also fervently hope I never have the chance to find out.

[John Jackson]

Well said, fowlshound.

I wouldn’t worry about it not being a scientific document, or that there’s some bad language in it – it’s from the heart, and that’s what really gets the point across.

Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may.

I’m rooting for you too. Well I will be unless you slag Newcastle Utd off again. :p

[Ducky]

Well said, fowlshound.

I wouldn’t worry about it not being a scientific document, or that there’s some bad language in it – it’s from the heart, and that’s what really gets the point across.

Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may.

I’m rooting for you too. Well I will be unless you slag Newcastle Utd off again. :p



Terry is hosting that for me. It's up to him. If you'd like, pm me an email address and I'll send you a PDF of it. (or just save it from that URL.)

I give premission to everyone who wants to reproduce or copy that paper as they see fit.

[John Jackson]

Thanks fowlshound,

I'll save a copy and put it on my server then I'll take the bandwidth hit.

I'll use it "as is".

Cheers,
John

[Ducky]

Thanks fowlshound,

I'll save a copy and put it on my server then I'll take the bandwidth hit.

I'll use it "as is".

Cheers,
John


Sweet. Post the link to your site. I'd be interested to see it.


ETA:

Nevermind. My moronic self remembered to check your profile.

Next I will learn to tie my shoes...

[John Jackson]

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/documents/SpinePaper.pdf


I've put it up there.

Anyone can link to it or copy it from there - I have the bandwith, no problem.

[Ducky]

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/documents/SpinePaper.pdf


I've put it up there.

Anyone can link to it or copy it from there - I have the bandwith, no problem.


Cool. gonna link it on the health page?

[John Jackson]

Yes, I'm definitely going to make something of it. It will be featured on the site.

[Ducky]

Yes, I'm definitely going to make something of it. It will be featured on the site.


I feel all tingly now. ;)

Glad you liked it.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Sounds like you've had a real "interesting" life there fowl, I hope it gets a lot less interesting in 06. Keep up the writing, maybe somebody else out there with similar problems to you will read it and get something positive from it.

My crystal balls tell me you've got lots of TAMS in front of you. :)

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Isn't there a curse that goes "May you have an interesting life"?

Great paper, fowlsound... and I shall think good thoughts for you in the new years.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Isn't there a curse that goes "May you have an interesting life"?



I think it's Chinese and I believe the quote is somethig like:

May you live in interesting times.

No doubt some clever bugger will come along with the correct info soon. :)

[LostAngeles]

I think it's Chinese and I believe the quote is somethig like:

May you live in interesting times.

No doubt some clever bugger will come along with the correct info soon. :)

That's it exactly. "Interesting times," are never the times of pleasantry, peace, and calm. They're nearly always famine-filled, war-filled, tyranny-filled, jelly-filled, plaque-filled, and generally suffering-filled.

[logical muse]

Hey fowl... Beautifully and powerfully written. I'm going to print this out and give it to a friend of mine who's father is very ill and has been sucked in by some fraudulent peddlers of alternative treatment.

Thank you.

[love]

This question leaked into another thread from this one, so I brought it back here.

The guy is a walking miracle thanks to science and yet people have felt the need to throw garbage in his face like, "Your body is too acidic," or, "You did something to deserve this." They offer him sugar pills and magic water and poo-poo the stuff that actually saved his life and call it, "poison."

Wouldn't you be angry?
Well I guess I would be if I had experienced all that.

fowlsound,
I read your paper with interest.

What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point?

How does your anger serve you? Does it protect you from using bogus treatments?

How in control of your life do you feel?

I wish you a full recovery.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...
What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point?

How does your anger serve you? ....

I believe he said he would be dead. Something you would have noticed if you had read it. See (quoting from the first message in this thread):
100 years ago I would have died as an infant, and 50 years ago I would have been paralyzed - if not dead. What I mean specifically is that without properly blinded studies, peer reviewed publication, the removal of emotion when gathering knowledge (removing confirmation bias and cherry picking of evidence), and the self correcting nature of scientific advancement there would have been absolutely no chance for me.

Edited to add: His anger may have to do with those who do not stop to understand what they are saying.

[love]

I believe he said he would be dead. Something you would have noticed if you had read it.
I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you?

[Ducky]

This question leaked into another thread from this one, so I brought it back here.


Well I guess I would be if I had experienced all that.

fowlsound,
I read your paper with interest.

What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point?

How does your anger serve you? Does it protect you from using bogus treatments?

How in control of your life do you feel?

I wish you a full recovery.


What would have happened? I would be dead. plain and simple. No alternative treatment would do anything to cure what I have.

How does your anger serve you? How in control of your life do you feel?

Piss off.

[Kiless]

Thanks for that, Fowlsound... I was wondering how I could link it over at the skepchick.org site but Mr Jackson (thanks!) said he'd put it up and that's brilliant. I have a few people in mind who should definitely read it. :)

[Mercutio]

Damn, FS....

Thanks for that.

[Ducky]

I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you?


In leiu of treatment? They all kill you because teh cancer kills you.

Actually read the paper, don't just look at the pictures.

[love]

In leiu of treatment? They all kill you because teh cancer kills you.

Actually read the paper, don't just look at the pictures.

What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas?

[Ducky]

What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas?


Are you for real?

Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? It is not 100%. It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER.

[love]

Are you for real?

Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect?

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.

It is not 100%.
No, it's not. What is?

It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER.

What about the people who get better without using doctors?

[Ducky]

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.


No, it's not. What is?



What about the people who get better without using doctors?



love, I am trying to decide whether you are honest in this line of questioning or if you are trolling.

Ok let's put it this way:

You have multiple myeloma. Do you attempt to shrink your many tumors using, say, Revlimid, which is tested and shown to have a high effective rate in shrinking tumors (well over 85%) or would you take the sugar pill (20%?)

If you choose placebo you are worthy of a Darwin Award.

Do you have a point here, or are you just trolling?



ETA: show me one placebo that puts back the vertabrae destroyed by the tumor I had in my spine. Are you honestly suggesting that homeopathy could have cured that condition?

Did you even read the paper, or are you talking out of your rear?

[Terry]

Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may.



I will be hosting it there indefinitely. You may consider the URL static.

[Ducky]

I will be hosting it there indefinitely. You may consider the URL static.


Thank you Terry. Much obliged :)

[Dogdoctor]

What about the people who get better without using doctors?
What people with cancer get better without using doctors? I imagine it would be those who don't have cancer but imagine they do so if they imagine they took something for their imaginary cancer they could imagine they got better and they would be better in their imagination if you can imagine that.

[money]

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.


Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine...

So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would:

a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C

b.) pray like the dickens

c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck

d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets

e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills

f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here)


If so, well.... good luck with that.

[cheddar]

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.

In the awful event that you're ever diagnosed with cancer, make sure to keep a detailed log and let us know how sampling from the placebo dessert tray works out for you.

It's funny that for thousands of years humanity had nothing but placebos with which to treat their diseases. They had placebos coming out the wazoo. A cornucopia of placebos of many different shapes, sizes, and styles. Yet they lived dramatically shorter lives overall and died much more rapidly when they were diagnosed with diseases.

I wonder why that is?

[TruthSeeker]

thanks FS. That is an excellent piece. It will come in handy.


Love's comments are exactly why your paper is needed. Thank you again.

[love]

love, I am trying to decide whether you are honest in this line of questioning or if you are trolling.
Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors.


Ok let's put it this way:

You have multiple myeloma. Do you attempt to shrink your many tumors using, say, Revlimid, which is tested and shown to have a high effective rate in shrinking tumors (well over 85%) or would you take the sugar pill (20%?)
Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to.

I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.

If you choose placebo you are worthy of a Darwin Award.
I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;)

Do you have a point here, or are you just trolling?
No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.

ETA:
Please help me here. What does this stand for?

show me one placebo that puts back the vertabrae destroyed by the tumor I had in my spine.
The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face.

Are you honestly suggesting that homeopathy could have cured that condition?
The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine.

In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.

Did you even read the paper, or are you talking out of your rear?
Yes. It seemed very passionately argued.

[Ducky]

Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors.


Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to.

I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.


I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;)


No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.


Please help me here. What does this stand for?


The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face.


The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine.

In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.


Yes. It seemed very passionately argued.



In that case let's skip straight to the point.

Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo.

Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article?

[love]

What people with cancer get better without using doctors? I imagine it would be those who don't have cancer but imagine they do so if they imagine they took something for their imaginary cancer they could imagine they got better and they would be better in their imagination if you can imagine that.

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.

[Ducky]

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.


That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you.

[love]

In that case let's skip straight to the point.

Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo.

Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article?
Why does it matter if homeopathy is better than a placebo? Homeopathy is a very good placebo.


Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine...

So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would:

a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C

b.) pray like the dickens

c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck

d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets

e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills

f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here)


If so, well.... good luck with that.
Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one. I don't know why more people don't do this.

[Kiless]

'love',

Before you go any further, I'm going to politely suggest that all of your suggestions may require you to consider looking at the million dollar challenge page, so you can take a more proactive step about your beliefs and maybe make a difference in the way your homeopathy and other suggestions are viewed by putting it up to the test. Do that. I'm willing to cheer you on for taking that step.

Anything else that you may seem to think is so 'helpful' in terms of addressing Fowlsound's condition is going to cause you more grief than you probably deserve. Although I'm certain there's some people who would probably think otherwise about how much grief you deserve and I can well envision their reasoning for doing so.

Move away from this one. Seriously.

[Kiless]

Oh - you seem to have trouble understanding the word 'placebo':

pla·ce·bo

1 a) A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well.
b) An inactive substance or preparation used as a control in an experiment or test to determine the effectiveness of a medicinal drug.

2. Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another.

From dictionary.com.

I particularly noticed 'definition 2'...


(edited to clarify what definition I was refering to)

[love]

That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you.

I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point.

[Terry]

Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one.

What evidence do you have for this assertion?

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.

All the steps: like finding an expert team of oncologists, nurses, home care workers, rehab specialists, psychologists ets.

Having surgery/radiation/chemo as per the best standards of evidence-based medicine.

Obtaining the best symptom control available.

Managing stress and trying to maintain some sense of sanity in the midst of all the chaos.

Finally, waiting to hear the fabulous "all clear" from your health care workers

Yup...imagine it and then do it...sound advice, but somehow I think I may have misunderstood you.

[Ducky]

I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point.


You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word.

I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this:

Move away from this one.

[Mercutio]

Love...let me echo Kiless. Walk away from this one. You are not merely wrong, but in this context you are offensively so. Start another thread on placebos if you like, I would be happy to join in there.

The whole point of a double blind study is to show the effectiveness of a treatment over and above placebo. FowlSound's treatments are, quite simple, a hell of a lot more effective than a thousand placebos.

[Kiless]

How about you start a generic thread about homeopathy somewhere else, 'love'. That may be better. Then you can perhaps propose a general statement, only about a paragraph, so people can talk generally about the topic.

And of course, check out here: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html
You might like to start reading some threads in the challenge forum about how people have thought about proposing homeopathy for the challenge.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word.

I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this:

Move away from this one.

Nor did she closely examine the x-rays of the spine, somehow I am not quite sure how a placebo would work on that kind of physical damage.

I would like to formally apologize for sending "love" over to this thread. I sincerely thought she/he would get a clue. But I was so terribly wrong. I am so sorry, and it seems she/he has absolutely no idea how hurtful her/his cluelessness is ... and now I am moving away from this one.

sorry

[Kiless]

I have deemed posts 52 onwards to have 'abandoned all hope'. The thread may continue there as it has derailed from the original topic and resorted to flaming.

[clarsct]

If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know.


Thanks.

ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies.

[LostAngeles]

If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know.


Thanks.

ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies.

:lfault

[Kiless]

Due to technical difficulties, the moved threads can be found here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=49444), although pasted in my post. I apologise to all concerned for the odd formatting but every post has been maintained. Back on topic.

[Kiless]

:lfault

NO! MINE!

[Rolfe]

I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again?

Rolfe.

[NeilC]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

[clarsct]

Other than a Waste Of Money, Brains And Time?


No, there are better things to do with one's time and imagination. Like, say, sorting your pennies by date. Or, hey, I have a good one! Dream up a fanastic date with your S/O...then spend the money making it come true!

Nyah...it'd never work.:rolleyes:

[Rolfe]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.
I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession.

Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason?

Rolfe.

[NeilC]

If I had cancer? Possibly.

[Rolfe]

Why?

Rolfe.

[NeilC]

I didn't say I would I said I might. Hard to say what I might do if I had a potentially terminal illness. I can’t confidently state that I wouldn’t.

The imaginative exercises might work in some sense – nobody can really say that developing a positive attitude etc cannot have any effect on one’s immune system or merely one’s ability to cope or something else not thought of just yet. Re: Homeopathy – this is probably the least likely thing I’d dtry but might be worth trying re: the placebo effect. It does appear to be quite a good placebo.

Given that terminal illness is your last shot I cannot rule out the possibility that I'd take the view that anything is worth trying as long as it doesn’t do any harm.

[MRC_Hans]

What would have happened? I would be dead. plain and simple. No alternative treatment would do anything to cure what I have.

How does your anger serve you? How in control of your life do you feel?

Piss off.Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction.

...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Splossy, if I told you that nailing a dead chicken you your door was a great cancer therapy, and why not, it can't do any harm, would you try it?

Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?

Rolfe.

[NeilC]

"Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?"

Yes. Of course.

[MRC_Hans]

What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas?No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients.

The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment.

Hans

[Mercutio]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.
I can only see the harm if

A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain.

B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer.

[NeilC]

You don't actually know that to be the case.

This from Skepdic:

"There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological.

Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope"

There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it.

[NeilC]

I can only see the harm if

A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain.

B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer.


I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.

[richardm]

I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.

I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance :mad:

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.
You have to also look at the harm that placebo and 'alternative therapies' can cause.

My father believes in the evils of 'big pharma', has a subscription to Kevin Trudeau's website (much to my chagrin), etc. He was diagnosed about a year ago with prostate cancer. Instead of going straight for medical treatment, he decided to try herbal remedies in hopes that the prostate would shrink, and possibly be cured of cancer without resorting to mainstream science. He thought it was working for him, so wasn't as concerned to go for a follow up appointment.

Needless to say, by the time he did go for a follow up, the prostate was almost unmanagable. He finally had the surgery a few days ago, which was touch and go due to size and the loss of blood.

The placebo effect can have positive effects, but foregoing medical treatment while hoping that a placebo will have a positive effect is a huge gamble. Certainly not one that I'm willing to take. And that's why those who sell placebos as a valid alternative to mainstream medicine are no better than common criminals; While they're lining their pockets, people who trust in the placebo effect die.

[brodski]

I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance :mad:

Its more than that, Ive seen SCAMers deliberately targetign the terminally ill, they're content selling false hope to people who are incredibly emotionally vulnerable, and more often than not in extremely difficult financial circumstances (being seriously ill costs you serious amounts of money, even if you do have state funded medicine).

The guilt trips these people will pull on patients and their families are incredible, when a family member is facing death, the urge to do anything, and spend any amount in the vain hope that it may help them is almost overwhelming. Some people look at this situation and see £ signs.
These people deserve their own circle of hell, just above the sociopaths that do the same, but try and convince the patient to give up effective treatment in favour of their snake oil, and will even try and convince the patient that the Drs who are working hard to save their life, are actually making them ill!

I would rather the SCAMers where out mugging people on the street than targeting the oncology wards, they are much less likely to kill someone that way, and each victim will probably loose less, both emotionally and materially.

[Rolfe]

No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients.

The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment.

HansJust in case anyone missed this.

Placebo is one of two things. An inactive pill given to "placate" the patient, to make then think the doc is doing something for them, or a similarly inactive pill given to the control group in a drug trial.

There can be so much going on with coincidental improvement, wishful thinking and so on, that such controls are necessary to separate out the effect of the real pharmaceutical from what would have happened anyway.

The "placebo" doesn't actually do anything, apart from possibly making the patient les anxious.

Nailing a dead chicken to your door is a well-known cancer cure. You owe it to yourself to try it!

Rolfe.

[Garrette]

Very sorry I haven't chimed in before, fowlsound, and even more sorry for the troubles you have faced and continue to face.

Great paper. I'm keeping it to hand give to some folks at appropriate times.

Well done. Thanks.

Get better.

[BillHoyt]

Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors.
Fortunately, love, we have better ways than "viewpoints" and "anger" and to determine the truth of these matters. There is no "viewpoint" involved with regard to scientific truth.
Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to.
"Healing tools" is a nonsense phrase used by those who wish to include unproven or even disproven ideas as substitutes for medicine. Doing what you feel like doing is a recipe for disaster.
I do use homeopathy.
Then, love, you're a fool.
ime I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.
If you are "one of those 20%," love, then you didn't "treat" yourself. You deluded yourself. The "treatment" did nothing. This is the definition of "placebo." Nothing happened as a result of the placebo. It either happened anyway, or the patient deluded herself.
I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;)
Uh, no, you clearly don't understand what a placebo is.
No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.[/.quote]
Its a great thing that science isn't based on people's experience, because, you see, nobody else can corroborate or refute your self-reports. We can simply say the placebo didn't help you one wit. We can further more say, with confidence, that the various snake oils you applied were also a total waste of both your time and effort. Period, love.

[quote]The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face.
Remote healing? And you haven't applied for the million dollars? What kind of foolishness is this?
The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine.
Fallacy of equivocation here, love.
In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.
Please cite your evidence. I have, btw, similar questions on other threads that you seem to have ignored. Please respond to this one.

[Ducky]

I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again?

Rolfe.


upper humorus. it's very small, and consistent with myeloma tumor. more MRI and CT scans have been taken I'll learn more on the 3 january meeting.

[rikzilla]

Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine...

So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would:

a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C

b.) pray like the dickens

c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck

d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets

e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills

f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here)


If so, well.... good luck with that.


Thanks folks! I now have the objective answer to that age old question: For love or money?

Looks like Money is the only rational choice available! ;)

Fight hard FowlSound...you are a fine example of the courage necessary to adhere to rationality in the face of mortality. Carl Sagan is one of my heros; but not just because of the way he lived; the way he faced death was even more impressive.

You OTOH are expected at TAM5. No excuses man.
-z

[Dogdoctor]

I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession.

Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason?

Rolfe.
Homeopathic remedies are supposed to be harmless and should be if they are prepared properly however people have died for taking homeopathic preparations due to bacterial contamination contamination with powerful drugs. The point I would say is that if a product is entirely useless than any risk from it is too much. There are risks to all these natural things you might think are safe. More and more risks are discovered all the time as they get used more and more. On top of that there is a plethora of imaginary treatments to use. How would one go about logically choosing those which might help?

[Ducky]

Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction.

...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'.

Hans


Well, it started out that way. If you look at the split I was less than charitable later on in the thread.

It baffles me how someone can read a paper explicitly explaining how offensive something is to someone then go do just that to that person.

Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive.

[BillHoyt]

Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive.
Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa.

How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next?

If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights.

[Rockstar]

I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you?

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?

A: Medicine

[Ducky]

Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa.

How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next?

If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights.


Apparently making broad assumtions that are untrue about people and passing them off as fact is par for the course also. love cited that I was using abusive tactics to control their argument, and that my father probably did the same. My father was rather quiet and softspoken, and hardly abusinve in any stretch of the term. (granted, he was an attorney...)

love reminded me of a bad psychic reading. throw enough out there and expect the other person to fill in the blanks, then reccommend som crap treatment afterward.

Thing is, nothing they said was true about me, and honestly I do not see how they couldn't understand they were offensive.

If you offend someone, the reason they are abusive back is merely because you offended them to that point. End of story.

[Roadtoad]

Splossy, love, let me point something out.

If I had cancer, the first thing I'd tell any doctor is use whatever means possible to kill the disease, as long as it had been proven effective. Considering the amount of money and time required with proven treatments, why would I waste time on ANYTHING other than that which is effective?

If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you.

[Ducky]

If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you.


Damn skippy.

Cheers mate.

[Diamond]

The rate for spontaneous remission from cancer is about 4%

Those are really poor odds. I think FS has every right to go for the treatment with the best percentages without his belief system having anything to do with it.

The difference between 85% and 4% is rather large. FS is choosing life and not a sugar pill.

[Dogdoctor]

You don't actually know that to be the case.

This from Skepdic:

"There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological.

Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope"

There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it.
I would be interested in seeing the study on the warts and what the inert substance was and what controls were used. However warts often spontaneously resolve so it is difficult to evaluate treatments. Asthma is in my opinion partially a psychological disease so would respond to psychological manipulation. The perception of pain can be altered by your mind no big news there. Perhaps there is a psychological factor in colitis so that would explain why it seems to respond to placebo. Symptoms can respond to placebo (the disease usually doesn't unless it is of a psychological nature to start with) Notice there were no malignant tumors mentioned in the placebo descriptions.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

What is important in this case is that you probably would not delay the conventional treatment. There is no harm in the imagination exercises... what does cause harm is trying NOTHING but "alternatives" and allowing the cancer to grow to a more unmanagiable state. Just like was illustrated by the case of prostrate cancer posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine in post http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1341538&postcount=74

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

[Ducky]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.



State of mind is very important. I agree with you. It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive.

Of course I take it further and say it's offensive to offer me soemthing that doesn't work, but it is not offensive to me for people to tell me to keep a positive attitude and cheer me up.

There's a distinct line there.

[Perpetual Notion]

D*mmit fowlsound, I go away for a few weeks and this is what I come back to? I'm sorry you are dealing with this again but you are on the right path and you have fought this before and come out ok. I hope it is not as rough this time around. I will be thinking of you and will want to know how you're doing. If anyone has the ability to kick this things a**, it's you. Sometimes it's a good, good thing to be angry.

[Dogdoctor]

If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive

[Ducky]

State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive


Agreed.

[Rockin' Rick]

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?

A: Medicine

Brilliant.

The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job...
Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn.

Best of luck Fowlsound.

[jimlintott]

If placebo is 20% effective that means I only need to take five of them to assure myself of a cure.

Sorry, I was trying to come up with something as stupid as:

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.

How did I do?

Actually I think love outdid that one with this gem:

I merely point out it is your attitude that causes you to find it offensive rather than say, naive.

love: I think he finds it offensive because he is not naive.

FS:
I read your paper. It makes a strong point. Hope you get well.

[supercorgi]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.
The brain is poorly understood. My dad was in a nursing home for 6 years after unsuccessful brain surgery to remove a tumor. At first he was like a vegetable -- he couldn't speak, he couldn't feed himself, or move. He had a suizure and after that he could speak, feed himself, and at least move a little bit. At the current time, I believe that brain surgery is partly voodoo science. They know very little -- some but not by any stretch of the imagination everything. They are feeling in the dark yet it is still far ahead of the days when they did trepination to relieve brain swelling. Well enough of my persona experiences.

Fowlsound, I'm sorry that you have to go through this. Knowing you from your postings, I'm sure you'll go through it with aplomb and dignity. I admire you and wish you the best in your treatment and hope you'll be with us for a very, very long time.

[clarsct]

Y'know. I'd like to point out that any 'benefits' of a placebo effect would also occur by getting REAL MEDICAL HELP! I would feel better knowing a real doctor, who's studied for a number of years, has taken a look and is doing what he can to help.

If I had cancer, I would be in a hospital so fast, it'd make your damn head spin. I don't care what the cost. I may be paying off hospital bills for the rest of my existence, but I would HAVE the rest of my existence to do so!

[brodski]

Brilliant.

The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job...
Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn.

Best of luck Fowlsound.

I'm having this argument over at another forum at the moment.

I'll start by saying, there is no "big pharma"/ government conspiract to prevent research into any aspect of medicine, and many parts of the SCAM industry are big enough to fund proper research into theri methods, they just choose not to. I've yet to hear a good explantion for this which does not show teh SCAMers as living up to theri name.

In my opinion the dividing line between woo and real medicine is not necessarily the evidence base, but the willingness to use proper scientific methods to establish an evidence base.

A fantastic recent example of this was the Nobel prize for research in stomach ulcers, ok so they where going against conventional understanding in suggesting a bacterial cause, but they went away and did good research to prove their point, they didn't just rely on patient testimonials and conspiracy theories.

Of course once the tests have been done, then the dividing line between woo and medicine is the evidence base.

Oh and on the "positive thinking" aspect of symptom control, the best "alternative" remedy my sister ever had was from a programme called "look good, feel better" which was a group of beauticians who offered their services for free for young women going through chemo. Didn't do a darn thing to help her cancer but it sure did help her get through the emotional turmoil of loosing her hair.

[brodski]

Y'know. I'd like to point out that any 'benefits' of a placebo effect would also occur by getting REAL MEDICAL HELP!

You know I feel kind of stupid posting this (a common ocurance for me on these boards) but I never actualy though of that argument.

Its one of those statements whcih is so oviously true, that I never actualy thought about it.

I'll certianly be using it in the future! Cheers :)

[ysabella]

Fowlsound, wow. Great paper, thank you for sharing, and all the best of outcomes on the arm problem. The best of health to you in 2006 and onward!

If anybody decides to supplement their medical treatment with placebos, be sure to use red ones. Studies have shown they are more effective. There's some form of a vitamin B that is popular as an injected placebo as it's a cheerful bright red.
One pitfall I might point out in feel-good ideas about medical treatment. You might feel better having a friendly, social doctor with a great bedside manner who you find relaxing. But if it comes down to a tricky surgery where your friendly doctor has a 78% success rate, and there's another guy who's a jerk but has a 97% success rate...who should you pick?

[Ducky]

Fowlsound, wow. Great paper, thank you for sharing, and all the best of outcomes on the arm problem. The best of health to you in 2006 and onward!

If anybody decides to supplement their medical treatment with placebos, be sure to use red ones. Studies have shown they are more effective. There's some form of a vitamin B that is popular as an injected placebo as it's a cheerful bright red.
One pitfall I might point out in feel-good ideas about medical treatment. You might feel better having a friendly, social doctor with a great bedside manner who you find relaxing. But if it comes down to a tricky surgery where your friendly doctor has a 78% success rate, and there's another guy who's a jerk but has a 97% success rate...who should you pick?


I go with the jerk.

Luckily, my neurosurgeon that rebuilt my spine was not only a very warm, caring man but top in the country in spinal tumors. MD from Harvard, PhD from MIT and 12 years heading up a nuerosurgery department in Philly.

This is not always the case. another big point of advice:

Find out the numbers on your doctor! Make sure you have someone with good success rates.


In the beginning of all this, my nuerosurgeon said "I really think you need this surgery immediately." and I said "And you're the guy to do it. I've read your stats. They're damn good. When can you cut me?"

He was floored. and very flattered.

Know who you are dealing with.

[RSLancastr]

I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.Or perhaps the pain would have subsided at that point on its own, even if you hadn't taken anything.

(Sorry if someone else already said it - I haven't finished the thread yet.)

[Ducky]

Or perhaps the pain would have subsided at that point on its own, even if you hadn't taken anything.

(Sorry if someone else already said it - I haven't finished the thread yet.)


Be sure to check the split in AAH for some blood boiling anger.

[Amapola]

I do not know if "enjoy" is the right word to say, but I did "enjoy" reading your paper, even though the subject is not about fun. I could relate to so much, in a small way! My father (who was a scientist) died of cancer this year, and he too got the same thing about how he should try "everything" and "what could it hurt" etc. etc. I will tell you how it could have hurt him - he had so little energy towards the end, it could have used all that energy up and for nothing. Instead he had the best doctor he could find, a man of science he could speak with and work with, and then he used his energy to spend his last moments with his family.

We had offers to send him to some place in Mexico where he could drink juice and get enemas every day. The neighbors even insisted on sending some guy to my father's house, to "assess" him and see if his particular type of enemas would cure him. One woman gave us a free bottle of Tahitian Noni juice, claiming it would cure him. I ask you!!! We took the Noni juice and all the pamphlets to show him, thinking it might bring a smile to his face because is was so ludicrous. We also had offers to send him to some clinic in TX (I think that is where it is) to do some other goofy procedure. So my father could have spent his last days in airports, traveling all over Kingdom Come chasing a chimaera of lost hope, instead of getting the very best medical care available, being as comfortable as possible and being with his family. In my opinion, those goofy "cures" would have been very damaging indeed.

It is just amazing what science has done for you, Fowlsound. Your neurosurgeon must be incredibly good. I join the others in wishing you the best.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

We had offers to send him to some place in Mexico where he could drink juice and get enemas every day. The neighbors even insisted on sending some guy to my father's house, to "assess" him and see if his particular type of enemas would cure him. One woman gave us a free bottle of Tahitian Noni juice, claiming it would cure him. I ask you!!! We took the Noni juice and all the pamphlets to show him, thinking it might bring a smile to his face because is was so ludicrous. We also had offers to send him to some clinic in TX (I think that is where it is) to do some other goofy procedure. So my father could have spent his last days in airports, traveling all over Kingdom Come chasing a chimaera of lost hope, instead of getting the very best medical care available, being as comfortable as possible and being with his family. In my opinion, those goofy "cures" would have been very damaging indeed.



An excellent tale and a small island of sanity in a sea of woo.

[Rockin' Rick]

My father had cancer, a nerve tumor behind the ear. After going through numerous doctors and tests, asking for opinions, etc., we found one of the very best at the time, when others claimed inoperable this guy was ready for the challenge. Long story short, after radiation treatment, which is rough going, he survived the cancer. He later passed do to pneumonia after having a stroke or two, he was weak after the cancer.

A close friend of mine's father is suffering from esophagus cancer, and a variety unknown to science only a few years ago. He went through surgery and chemotherapy, but it has spread, they have exhausted every option they know of. I know several others that have battled the big C.

I understand the issues against "big pharma". But it's no different than wealth envy. I don't hate Bill Gates, I have no reason to, not for his wealth. But some do. No, "big pharma" does not wish us to be sick. They most certainly stand to make more money on a cure than from research. But they are huge companies, they only do what is good for business. While they don't want us ill, they will just cash in on the fact that we get ill. That isn't a vast conspiracy, it's just business. The reference to automobiles is a little iffy. Car makers have had better technology in front of them, yet fail to bring it to market. It's very much about the money. They do what works for them today. BP (British Petroleum) for example, we think of them as an oil/fuel company. They are actually an energy company. They have interests in natural gas, wind, and are one of the world's largest producers of solar energy products. Big tobacco, they didn't fortify cigarettes with all those chemicals to harm us, they did it to sell cigarettes. These sort of things happen all the time. So I get it, I understand the concern, but lets take a good scientific look at the situation and not just flip out.

To tell a cancer patient that chewing on tea leaves will cure them or some such craziness is just infuriating. I like the talk about vitamin C. While it is has been found to be truly remarkable it certainly cannot repair defective DNA. What I've heard about it is that cancer patients should NOT use vitamin C. It works so well that it can actually help cancer cells fight off chemotherapy.

[ysabella]

I go with the jerk.

Luckily, my neurosurgeon that rebuilt my spine was not only a very warm, caring man but top in the country in spinal tumors. MD from Harvard, PhD from MIT and 12 years heading up a nuerosurgery department in Philly.

This is not always the case. another big point of advice:

Find out the numbers on your doctor! Make sure you have someone with good success rates.
You make every kind of sense to me, Fowlsound. And excellent job on checking out your doctors - every patient should be so empowered! :star:

[bruto]

It seems pretty obvious that the placebo effect works best if you believe in the therapy. Since fowlsound believes in science, he gets a very good package.

I do have one observation, which I hope one doesn't find too "woo-ish" with regard to Vitamin C. Some years ago, my sister was suffering from Leukemia (which killed her, by the way, as Acute Myelogenous Leukemia often does, and certainly did in 1976), and during the chemotherapy she had various problems which her husband suspected involved, among other things, scurvy. It's unfortunately the case that many doctors and nurses do not read all the literature on the drugs they use, and several of the antibiotics, as well as the chemo, listed scurvy as a potential side effect. The doctors, in the belief that more than a little bit of vitamin C is wasted, poo-poohed this idea. It was quite a battle to get them to give her as much as a gram a day, which turned out to be beneficial after all. The funny thing was that the doctors also did not communicate with each other. When one or the other of us asked about vitamin C, one doctor would say something like "Well, I don't believe in it, except that it has been shown to shorten a cold somewhat." Another would say the same thing, except that it's been shown to do something else useful. And so on down the line. If you took the statements of each doctor, and listed the one property they were sure vitamin C had, it would appear to be pretty good stuff. Well, anyway, we know it prevents scurvy! And beet juice really does prevent potassium depletion too.

All of which is a long-winded way of reminding Fowlsound that it's a good idea to do your own research on side effects, and don't forget to do a little science of your own. Vitamin C, for example, will of course not cure your cancer even a little bit, and not having taken a zillion grams a day did not cause it either, but if, for example, you're on chemotherapy and three potent antibiotics to keep you from dying of infection in the meantime (good medicine without argument), it may turn out that you need more, because the drugs steal it. Of course this may be better understood now than it was in 1975-6 when the story of my sister occurred, but a little extra research never hurts. If you do end up needing more therapy, get a Physician's Desk Reference. Those nasty greedy big pharma conspirators everybody hates did a LOT of research, and wrote it all down too. There's more than some busy doctors have the time to read.

Rounding out the story of my sister, she did indeed die, but she died of leukemia. The therapy did not work, but it also did not kill her first. This is not as common an outcome as one might expect, because the therapy must be as drastic as the disease is. At least a part of the credit for this belongs, I think, to the extra care she and others on her behalf took to do their own research.

Well, it sounds as if Fowlsound has some good doctors out there, and I hope they continue to prove it.

[Dogdoctor]

People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare.
eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? It is not 100%. It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER.


I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.


Hey, Fowlsound. I've only just seen this thread. Sorry to hear the bad news.

Just a couple of things to say to our esteemed interlocutor from the Planet Woo.

But, first a clarification that others have also made. I think your guess of 20% is way off for a 'real' placebo effect, i.e. an effect created by the patient's mind on their disease state, as distinct from coincidental recovery or the effects of co-factors like lifestyle canges.

A figure of 20% might apply to diseases that are largely psychosomatic in origin. It might also apply in a different way to diseases where there is no good objective way of measuring the response so when a patient tunes their repsonses to make the therapist happy there is no way of contradicting that report.

For proper physical diseases I expect that a real response to placebo is close to zero.

If you look at discussions of sCAMers' claims, a 'real' placebo effect is sometimes invoked by the sceptical side almost as a means of not giving unnecessary offence to the woo side. But, the diseases under discussion will almost always be exactly those that allow patients to misrepresent their own condition or ones where the patient's attitude to the disease will have a very obvious link to the disease itself, such as...

"Last time I had dental pain"

I can't quite believe I'm having to say this, 'love' , but you have just likened your trivial dental pain to bone cancer and have insisted that just because your toothache got better at some point after you took a sugar pill then Fowlsound's cancer will go away if he also takes such a pill. If you cannot see the gross asymmetry in these circumstances then you have no right to say anything at all.


In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.

This quote bears repeating for the health-Nazi crap that it is. It is the ultimate get-out clause for every despicable fraudulent woo. If the disease doesn't get better it is the patient's fault. It absolves you of the need to ever reconsider your crackpot belief system. Beyond anything else this is what makes enthusiastic support for alt.med. so loathesome. Sadly, you may have become so brainwashed that when some horrible disease befalls you, you might still believe this lie.

Let's try a question for you, 'love. What will you do when the time comes or are you making plans for immortality? Frustratingly, when a sCAMmer is finally dying they will surely disappear from public awareness and probably have more on their minds than making a humiliating public recantation.


sCAM = the crazed well preying on the ignorant sick.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare.
eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all.

Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead.

Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in.

[brodski]

sCAM = the crazed well preying on the ignorant sick.

I'll say it again, its worse than that, many people facing a potentially fatal condition are willing to "try anything" regardless of whearther they know it will work or not. Preying on the desperate sick is much more profitable than to prey on those who are potentially facing death, they tend to be much more willing to part with their life's savings. :mad:
Street robbery is a much more honest living.

Fowsound is a credit to rational peipel everywhere for fighting agianst this crap.

[brodski]

Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead.

Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in.

it's ok, Imsure some "well meaning" woo somewhere will console teh humsband that his wife didnt realy want to get better, or that she didnt belive hard enough in the woo, or some other crap.

[John Jackson]

I would like to say thanks to ‘love’ for contrasting fowlshound’s paper so well.

(S)he is a perfect example of the sort of idiotic thinking that leads to needless suffering and death in patients.

Whenever I get the “what’s the harm?” question asked, I try to get it across to people that there’s little harm in irrational beliefs while things are going well; it’s at life’s crisis points that they become harmful.

‘love’ is a great example of this blissful ignorance, and is someone who’s set themselves up to discover the power of hindsight.

‘love’, if you’re still reading, I’d read fowlshound’s paper again (properly this time) and take heed of the message: it might just save your life one day.

[bruto]

People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare.
eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all.

I did not intend to imply that the chemo is always almost as bad as the disease, but in some instances it can be pretty drastic. I don't know how much refinement the treatment for AML has become, for example, though I still see some of the same substances mentioned, but that treatment consists in essentially killing off one's bone marrow in the hope that this will kill off the disease. It's more or less like draining a pond to get rid of an invasive fish. Since messing up the marrow is more or less what the leukemia does, the chemo I saw did pretty much seem like a very acute bout of the disease, topped off with a number of other side effects such as nausea bad enough to require constant IV feeding, and of course an openness to infection which required massive doses of antibiotics of enough varieties to cover the maximum spectrum. Add to this that the therapy is of course undertaken only if the patient is already very very sick. My sister had chemo several times during the year she was being treated, and at least one of those times, it was begun only after her hematocrit had dropped to the single digits and she was receiving packed red cells on a daily basis. This is not a healthy way to start your day. All of which adds up to a situation in which ordinary daily nutrition, for example, may not suffice, and is not possible anyway.

My father also had chemo and radiation for malignant melanoma. Again, this was long ago, and the treatments have undoubtedly changed (I hope, in his memory, that they've become more effective at least), but it was certainly no picnic.

I will not bother with any further horror stories about busy hospitals, unread charts, conflicting orders, etc., which do occasionally occur, excpet to say that even under the highest-quality care, if you have a complex and dangerous condition, it's a good idea to keep track of what is going on and be your own advocate.

This is not in any way disparaging or discouraging the use of chemotherapy, which often works, and is a almost certainly a best for cases with a good prognosis, and the only bet for those without, but this is one area where you might benefit from what might be called a "holistic" approach (though I hesitate to borrow that word back from the woos who have stolen it). Doctors and nurses often seem to know or care very little about nutrition, and tend to concentrate on the particular task they're involved with. I found that this is especially true of the hotshot research doctors one may meet when one is undergoing cutting-edge therapy. They are very good at treating the cancer, but less so at treating the patient. Drink lotsa juice!

[TruthSeeker]

Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead.

Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in.

This, unfortunately, is more common than one would assume. Fear of losing the male partner has been identified as a factor in the delay to have suspicious lumps investigated and then in rejecting surgery. "He's a breast man" "He loves my breasts" "He'll leave me for someone with two breasts" Men worry about impotence after prostate cancer surgery as well.

Horribly sad.

[Roadtoad]

Well, as a self confessed "breast man," I'd rather see her do without than lose her to something as stupid as vanity.

[Iamme]

I think homeopathy would be the choice for anyone who has unlimited time to which to experiment.

But if you were ultimately given a death sentence of like 6 months to live, I think you would realize that whole grain breads, organic water, magnets, accupuncture, Vitamin C, Omega -3, etc., etc., is not going to extinguish the raging inferno within you. Perhaps if one lived a life of this stuff before the disease, perhaps no disease. But only perhaps. There are other factors where good diets and excercize aren't going to guarantee you a healthful life of 100 years.

Kevin Trudeau's claim that reversing your ph balance can actually prevent and REVERSE existing cancer is quite the bolsterous claim. Either it can or it can't. But if I had cancer, I would indeed try to look into that claim quite seriously. But, it does sound like a stretch, that something so easy could cure it. I think someone posted regarding this (on an original Kevin Trudeau thread a few months? back), that if you achieved that ph balance reversal, that then you would die of THAT.

I know a neighbor that has cancer in his lungs, liver and shoulder. Any one of these cancers could have killed him. He actually went into remission for quite a while after standard medical treatment. They aren't looking for him to make it though. But, I believe he would have been dead already if it weren't for those standard treatments he has gotten.

I am fascinated by "remission". I can't understand what causes the cancer to shut down for a while, then restart up. You would think that medical science would have found the cause (of remission) and used this to solve the cure, long ago, because of some clue, regarding remissions. Could it be that there is an oscillation effect where the tumors need and get a lot of blood?...and then the blood supply can't keep up with the tumor(s) after a while?...so the tumor stops growing?...but then collaterals develop and the tumor gets more blood once again, and so the cancer takes off once again? I have heard that some of the lastest tumor fighting drugs are those that supress blood flow to the tumor.

[Roadtoad]

Whoa. Wait a loooooong second.

Even if I had unlimited resources of time and money, there's no way in hell I'd ever go with a homeopathic regimen. For one thing, why would you waste any resource, regardless of its supply? That's just plain stupid.

For another, consider that your actions have an impact on others. Prince Charles and his imbecilic remarks about homeopathy have, no doubt, led others to think there's something right with drinking tap water that's had its "memory" tweaked, or taking megadoses of vitamins. Everyone has a certain amount of influence with people, and trying to cure yourself of a fatal disease with psuedoscientific methods only suggests to those same people that there's something acceptable in this.

Ultimately, you wind up creating the wholly false impression that this regimen has any effectiveness against cancer. This will lead some poor schmoo who has even less in the way of resources to you to empty their bank account and ultimately surrender their lives for the sake of someone else's greed. Bad idea.

Sorry. I think homeopathy should be outlawed, or at least parked in the back seat where it belongs.

[bruto]

I think homeopathy would be the choice for anyone who has unlimited time to which to experiment.

But if you were ultimately given a death sentence of like 6 months to live, I think you would realize that whole grain breads, organic water, magnets, accupuncture, Vitamin C, Omega -3, etc., etc., is not going to extinguish the raging inferno within you. Perhaps if one lived a life of this stuff before the disease, perhaps no disease. But only perhaps. There are other factors where good diets and excercize aren't going to guarantee you a healthful life of 100 years.

Kevin Trudeau's claim that reversing your ph balance can actually prevent and REVERSE existing cancer is quite the bolsterous claim. Either it can or it can't. But if I had cancer, I would indeed try to look into that claim quite seriously. But, it does sound like a stretch, that something so easy could cure it. I think someone posted regarding this (on an original Kevin Trudeau thread a few months? back), that if you achieved that ph balance reversal, that then you would die of THAT.

I know a neighbor that has cancer in his lungs, liver and shoulder. Any one of these cancers could have killed him. He actually went into remission for quite a while after standard medical treatment. They aren't looking for him to make it though. But, I believe he would have been dead already if it weren't for those standard treatments he has gotten.

I am fascinated by "remission". I can't understand what causes the cancer to shut down for a while, then restart up. You would think that medical science would have found the cause (of remission) and used this to solve the cure, long ago, because of some clue, regarding remissions. Could it be that there is an oscillation effect where the tumors need and get a lot of blood?...and then the blood supply can't keep up with the tumor(s) after a while?...so the tumor stops growing?...but then collaterals develop and the tumor gets more blood once again, and so the cancer takes off once again? I have heard that some of the lastest tumor fighting drugs are those that supress blood flow to the tumor.


I have to agree with Roadtoad on this one. Just because I expect to live another 30 or 40 years, I am not going to spend half of that learning to like the taste of urine either, just because some mystics think it's good for me. Many people have experimented with homeopathy and other quack cures in the long and short terms, and it's not gotten any better. Real scientific medicine, despite its occasional shortcomings, does get better.

In the case of cancer, since early intervention is one of the most important factors in success, I would never waste my time on quackery even if my illness was relatively slow acting.

I also think you have to make a distinction between the healthy living that helps us to fend off disease, and the reverse idea that quacks often tout that presence of a disease like cancer proves that you did something wrong (and of course they know what it is). Those religious meddlers who try to tell you god is mad at you and you should pray the thing away are in the same class. If you live a healthy life and have a good attitude, you will probably improve your odds of not getting some diseases, and you will probably improve your odds of surviving the ones you get, but some people will get these things anyway, no matter what they do.

[epepke]

The rate for spontaneous remission from cancer is about 4%

Those are really poor odds.

They're still large enough to convince a lot of reality-challenged people that stuffing beet slivers in your nostrils or learning how to do the Hokey-Pokey backward cures cancer.

[Blue Mountain]

Well, the paper is certainly a personal one! I for one prefer to keep my writing at a more impersonal level. However, I'm not sure which approach makes more of an impact. It may depend on your target audience.

The arguments you make are sound, and the examples drawn from your own experience are powerful. But phrases such as "Are you really such a half-wit, mouth breathing moron as to believe that BS?" could well cause some of your audience to stop reading right there.

You also tripped over "its" vs "it's" on page 6. (Sorry, it's the grammar panda bear in me.)

On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around.

[brodski]

On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around.

You touch on a valid criticism of the pharmaceutical industry here, in that resources are directed to research based on a profit motive rather than actual need. For instance in recent years more has been spent on research into anti impotence drugs than anti malarial drugs, as there is a greater demand for the former in wealth nations, though the impact on overall human well being would be helped much more by the latter.

However there are enough real medical conditions which are currently untreatable to provide a good enough market for real medicine, without inventing new conditions. Also, consider that real medicine, in many countries, has to prove itself effective (as well as safe) in order to be licensed, you'll have a job proving that your treatments is effective against a condition, if you can't show that any of your test subjects actually had the condition in the first place.

The real growth industry for new conditions is in SCAM practitioners, as it always has been. Whereas you can o to your GP and be given a clean bill of health, I don't think a homeopath has ever met a healthy person!
A woo will always be able;l to find a "condition" to "treat", that's the wonderful thing abou placebo, its even more effective against imaginary diseases than real ones!

(edited beceasue I can't type, or spell)

[fyslee]

It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive.
Even when you take it at the same time, when it comes to cancer, it'll decrease your survival chances by 30%.

To find this statistic (since I can't post links yet) you'll have to do this Google search:

"The Quack-Files: Cancer Survival & Alternative Medicine"

That will take you to the page on my website.

[fyslee]

It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive.
For more about the acronym sCAM (ALWAYS spelled with a small "s"....;-), do this search:

"The Quack-Files" "scam commitment"

[brodski]

Even when you take it at the same time, when it comes to cancer, it'll decrease your survival chances by 30%.

To find this statistic (since I can't post links yet) you'll have to do this Google search:

"The Quack-Files: Cancer Survival & Alternative Medicine"

That will take you to the page on my website.

Here you go Fyslee, & welcoem to the forum!

http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/cancer_norway.html

or

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=12565991&dopt=Citation


I've only read the adstracts, but does the paper claim that Suuplemtary, Complementary and Alternitive Medice (S.C.A.M- its allwasy usefull to ahve an excuse to include the "s") actualy harms you in ways oterh than drainbign your wallet? Or is it that those who fall under teh spell of tehse conmen are either
A) allready desperite in other words they are allready the are the worst cases, or
B) delaying real treatment and plaicign theri fith in whale music and vitimin C?

[fyslee]

I've only read the adstracts, but does the paper claim that Suuplemtary, Complementary and Alternitive Medice (S.C.A.M- its allwasy usefull to ahve an excuse to include the "s") actualy harms you in ways oterh than drainbign your wallet? Or is it that those who fall under teh spell of tehse conmen are either
A) allready desperite in other words they are allready the are the worst cases, or
B) delaying real treatment and plaicign theri fith in whale music and vitimin C?
It depends on what form of sCAM is used. Some are definitely harmful, while most are most likely benign. From an ethical and economic standpoint they are unjustified. I suspect that the mentality of many users of sCAM methods leads them to put off seeking proper help, which itself would worsen their prognosis. Whatever the case, it isn't proven that using sCAM improves their prognosis in any way. While feeling empowered, more relaxed, and more peaceful, aren't bad things at all (quality of life is a many factored matter....), they likewise have no proven effect on their prognosis.

[fyslee]

Hi Fowlsound,

I have posted a link to your story at "Confessions of a Quackbuster".

Regards,

Paul Lee, PT

[Iamme]

I have to agree with Roadtoad on this one. Just because I expect to live another 30 or 40 years............................................. ... I would never waste my time on quackery even if my illness was relatively slow acting.

But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question.

There is a health center somewheres in the US that believes they can clean out your arteries for you, by chelation. Chelation is used to remove heavy metals from a person also. Yet some, regard the artery cleaning by chelation as quakery. But IS it?

And then you hear of these quack clinics that give statistics claiming high cure rates.

You get to where you don't know who or what to believe, regarding this stuff.

Some have said that coral calcium is quakery. Yet, there is SOME reason why Okanawans live so long. And I'll bet it's not because they are being filled with prescription drugs. If you are eating the right food (whatever that is) and breathing clean air, and drinking food water, and excercizing in some reasonable fashion (I doubt these people run marathons everyday)...I think there is a melding of that line drawn in the sand as to where homeopathy/unusual diets start, and where quakery takes off from there.

If one engages in some natural remedy, it may work because the immunde system is stronger while engaged in this behavior. So it becomes a two-fold process for the good. Not only from the standpoint that you are taking into your body that which nourishes it best, but that you are strengthening the bodies ability to ward off disease..and cancer. Obviodsly, these people must not have a lot of early fatal cancers, etiher. (They probably don't eat foods with injected hormones galore, or eat weiners with nirtrates/nitrites in them, etc.)

Maybe Googling Mexican homeopathic clinics will yield some good reading.

[Iamme]

On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around.

This is what Kevin Trudeau says. So...do you believe in what he says then?

[Mojo]

But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question.We have a method that can accomplish this: double-blinded placebo controlled trials.

Have any properly controlled trials of the therapies you mention been carried out? If so, what were the results? Anything that is demonstrated to work will be rapidly adopted by the medical profession in general, not just carried out by "a health center somewheres in the US".

Someone* posted a joke on the forum recently:

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
A: Medicine.

*Sorry, I can't remember who it was.

[Roadtoad]

But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question.

See Mojo's answer to this.

There is a health center somewheres in the US that believes they can clean out your arteries for you, by chelation. Chelation is used to remove heavy metals from a person also. Yet some, regard the artery cleaning by chelation as quakery. But IS it?

If my doctor wouldn't recommend it, and my doctor is someone I can trust, why would I try this? I