What if you people went to a 'psychic' and...

[AmyWilson]

Let's assume you people on James Randi's website, or James Randi himself, went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future? Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?

I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not. Oh well, I guess he has to make a living somehow. If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?

[Kaarjuus]

Sylvia Browne accepted to be tested by the JREF foundation. So far, Randi has been waiting over 5 years and Browne still has not followed through on her words.

[geoman]

If those funny wrestling people from the WWF [happily I have no idea of their names] are on TV all the time, obviously they are good wrestlers, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

[Rasmus]

If those funny wrestling people from the WWF [happily I have no idea of their names] are on TV all the time, obviously they are good wrestlers, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

Don't forget to mention all the good actors ...

[JohnF_73]

What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future? Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?

It would go a long way towards making me believe something was there.

However, that will simply never happen. So called psychics NEVER give information that they could not possibly have known.

I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not.
You don't have to meet him to know if he's a good psychic. Just look at the *unedited* tapes of his shows.


If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

That is not logical, and you merely make yourself look very foolish by trying to claim that this is true.


Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?

Balls have nothing to do with it. I don't have 700 dollars to waste on something I don't think is going to do me any good. Ms. Browne charges OBSCENE amounts of money to play her guessing games with you.

Tell you what Amy, you give me the 700 bucks, and I'll do a session with Sylvia. If she tells me 1 thing about me which she couldn't possibly have known, I'll give you back $2000 USD.

How's that? Or do you not have the balls?

[Zep]

Let's assume you people on James Randi's website, or James Randi himself, went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future? Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?

I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not. Oh well, I guess he has to make a living somehow. If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?BORING!


Perhaps you might like to tell us how anyone determines how we confirm any "psychic" is "good"?

Oh, I see - "good" = "popular".

Right. :rolleyes:

STOP TROLLING, MORON!

[Shevek-72]

Another thing is that the information they give is always useless. If they tell you things about your past it's always stuff you already know.
No need for a psychic there. I can remember, anyone else can ask me.
And all other stuff is too obscure to be useful anyway.

I, for example, would be interested in a bit a trivia about my past: Where did I put or lose the key for my motorcycle's steering lock and where is it now?
I never use that lock, but need to demonstrate it works for the upcoming technical road approval.

I'll offer any psychic who accepts the challenge 200€, which is more than it would cost me to have that thing replaced :D . And no, "In a dark place with lots of other stuff" does NOT count.

[sat556]

BORING!

It's true :)

[Humphreys]

Let's assume people on believer's websites went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would these people do if a psychic failed to tell them anything significant that they couldn't have known?

What if the psychics peppered them with really mundane, vague information, that could be true for almost anyone, at a rate of about one per second, and simply waited for them to find a connection with one of the statements, and used their body language to determine this, and then followed up with a further barrage of comments, prompting them for responses every step of the way, hoping they'll only remember the hits, and forget the many misses?

What if the psychics claimed to be in touch with their father whom they miss dearly, and are despearete to talk to, and desperate to know he is really happy and well, yet all he wants to ask them about is how their uncle, who has a 'B' sounding name, who they barely knew, is doing at his new job?

What if the psychics told them to "go home and think about it", when they knew damn well their dad isn't called Sarah, and doesn't have a pet Leopard!

What if the psychics failed to hit any many major points (that happened), and claimed to tell them their future, but then none of it actually came true?

Would they still be believers, even though they know psychics (or some) are fake?

I was reading Sylvia Browne's latest update on her website, and she had written a big section about James Randi, criticizing him as being a bad investigator. If james Randi has had lots of books published, and is very well known for investigating fraud, obviously he is good at investigating fraud, or people wouldn't buy his books. It's just that simple.

It's true :)

[The Painter]

I went to a psychic once. She said I was a dog in a former life. So I bit her.

[Azrael 5]

Im astounded Amy Wilson has 156 posts.Does that mean she has made 156 topics,as I don't recall her ever discussing anything.

It's rubbish :(

[Zep]

I was reading Sylvia Browne's latest update on her website, and she had written a big section about James Randi, criticizing him as being a bad investigator. If james Randi has had lots of books published, and is very well known for investigating fraud, obviously he is good at investigating fraud, or people wouldn't buy his books. It's just that simple.Perhaps it's also because Randi does not hold himself up to be what he is not. Sylvia...??

[Curnir]

yo "amy"

The coffee I'm drinking right now is cold.

It's true :)

[arthwollipot]

Let's assume people on believer's websites went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would these people do if a psychic failed to tell them anything significant that they couldn't have known?

That won't happen. Believers will always play right into the charlatan's hands, and give him (or her) everything they ask for. Hence, the "reading" will, almost by definition, be a success.

[Stellafane]

Hi AmyWilson. If I were in the situation you describe, and a psychic told me something he or she couldn't possibly have known, I would immediately ask "How the hell did you know that?" If they said "I read your mind," I would say "No, really, how did you do it?" If they insisted it was telepathy, I would reply "Can you do it all the time? I mean, if I were holding up a piece of paper and looking at it, could you read my mind and tell me what I was seeing? Because if you can tell me about that time I lost my bicycle when I was 8, this should be child's play, right?" If they claimed telepathy didn't work like that, I'd assume they were either really lucky guessers or cheated somehow. But if they were real psychics, they'd reply "Of course. Reading your mind and telling you what you are seeing is very easy." As soon as I stopped hyperventilating, I'd say "Listen, I got a deal for you: Forget this $50 an hour and crystal ball stuff. Come with me -- right now! -- to Florida, and I'll split a cool million with you!" And I'd be on my way south on the spot.

Doesn't it ever make you wonder why no one has ever done this? Do you think it's from lack of functioning "balls" (crystal or otherwise)?

[alfaniner]

As this appears to be a rare non-trollish post from Amy Wilson (it doesn't even end in his usual quote), I will answer.

If I was told something by a psychic that they could not possibly have known, and not by having played the standard guessing game, I would think it would merit further investigation.

[paiute]

I was married by a psychic 23 years ago, if that counts. Still married, by the way, whereas many couples I know - married by priests, rabbis, ministers, or justices of the peace - are now divorced.

[gfunkusarelius]

i think the initial question is humorously desperate...it's almost like a nerdy guy saying to the head cheerleader "if i was really built and i played football and i was good looking, would you go out on a date with me?" to me it shows how badly people want to believe. when they cant provide proof, they just go into a "what-if" fantasy and, by putting people into a situation where they theoretically accept their fantasy, it makes it seem that much more real.

[NobbyNobbs]

[QUOTE=AmyWilson;1604302
I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not. [/QUOTE]


I've never met Tom Hanks. How on earth would I know whether he's a good actor?


I've never been to Australia. How would I know whether it's really on the other side of the world?


I've never visited Mars. How would I know whether it's really rust-brown?

Think a bit before you post. Please.

[KingMerv00]

If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

George W got elected twice, therefore he must be a good president.

*snicker*

[dogjones]

I was married by a psychic 23 years ago, if that counts. Still married, by the way, whereas many couples I know - married by priests, rabbis, ministers, or justices of the peace - are now divorced.

You mean the bloke in the registery office said "I have a good feeling about you guys?"

[I less than three logic]

Yes, I realize this is a bit hypocritical, but I believe, through the course of time, I’ll find a way to cope with the shame of having said what I’m about to say.;)

WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO READ, AND ACTUALLY RESPOND, TO THIS NONSENSE?!

It kind of reminds me of flies and a bug zapper. I know, before I even open them just by seeing that Amy is the OP, that reading these threads will only cause my head to hurt, but the temptation of the strange blue light is just too much to resist.:o

[gfunkusarelius]

troll chum, thats all we are
:D

[n11/n12]

What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future?

I might actually believe them then. But then again, in all the centuries that psychics have "existed" that's never happened, so I have nothing to worry about.

[Bob Klase]

If james Randi has had lots of books published, and is very well known for investigating fraud, obviously he is good at investigating fraud, or people wouldn't buy his books. It's just that simple.

I'm not sure if you were serious about that part. That's the same logic Amy used. That would mean that Eric von Daniken must be good at investigating paranormal stuff or people wouldn't buy his books. And Kevin Trudeau is obviously good at giving medical advice or people wouldn't buy his books.

[Humphreys]

I'm not sure if you were serious about that part. That's the same logic Amy used. That would mean that Eric von Daniken must be good at investigating paranormal stuff or people wouldn't buy his books. And Kevin Trudeau is obviously good at giving medical advice or people wouldn't buy his books.

I know, I wasn't being serious, just mimicking her post.

[JohnF_73]

WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO READ, AND ACTUALLY RESPOND, TO THIS NONSENSE?!


I asked that not long after joining the board, because on any other BB I've been on, the policy was always not to feed the trolls.

I was told by someone who's been here longer that it's policy here to play with the trolls.

[bjb]

Here's my story about a psychic who 'knew' something they couldn't have possibly known. Years ago, one of our secretaries was very excited about going to a psychic. She was approached by the psychic in the women's restroom at a nightclub, and the psychic told her that she had lost a baby. Our secretary had indeed suffered a miscarriage so the psychic was correct. She kept saying over and over, "How did she know?". I thought it was just a lucky guess but many years later, I came across a statistic that said 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage:

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1192.asp

Apparently, this psychic was drumming up business by approaching women over a certain age (late 20's-30's) and telling them they had lost a baby. A 15% chance of being correct is not great, but when the guess is correct, the prospective client is really going to be impressed. Certainly using someone's miscarriage to get new business is as low as can be, and while I think John Edward is a pretty disgusting person, at least he doesn't use the miscarriage statistic to his own advantage. Not yet, anyway.

By the way, James Randi has visited 'real' psychics. In that Nova show from a few years ago, he travels to Russia to visit with two women who claim to be able to tell everything about a person by looking at their photograph. He shows them a picture of the serial killer Ted Bundy and the women don't have too much to say about him, other than he seems lke a nice guy. During the reading, the women became frustrated because James Randi was not giving them any information. They said he was shutting them off, but their claim was to make their reading based on the photograph. In truth, their readings were normally successful because their usual clients went along with the game and voluntereed information whenever a guess turned out to be correct. By not volunteering information, James Randi ruined the effect and the psychics came off looking like compete idiots.

John Edwards also depends upon the cooperation of his clients. They ignore is wrong guesses and volunteer additional information when a guess is somewhat close to the truth. It's the same game we've seen over and over again, so that's why we know John Edwards has no supernatural abilities.

In any case, John Edwards is not even a psychic. He talks to the dead, so he is a necromancer, not a psychic.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Let's assume you people...

What would you people do...

You people.

AmyWilson is Ross Perot.

It's true.

[bjb]

While Amy is a troll, her question is valid enough and I think it deserves a response. Ignoring someone's arguement simply because they are an idiot is an ad hominem response and that is something a skeptic should not do. If she or anyone else asks a totally stupid question, then you can ignore it because your decision is based upon the stupidity of the question, not the questioner.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

While Amy is a troll, her question is valid enough and I think it deserves a response. Ignoring someone's arguement simply because they are an idiot is an ad hominem response and that is something a skeptic should not do. If she or anyone else asks a totally stupid question, then you can ignore it because your decision is based upon the stupidity of the question, not the questioner.

I see your point but AmyWilson's track record indicates that he/she doesn't really care what the responses are. How many threads has AmyWilson started and received responses, only to vanish from that topic and move on to something else?

I wonder if AmyWilson is a collection of instigators (perhaps like the Dr. MAS collective) that drop in occasionally in order to stir up some controversy, then sit back and laugh at the responses?

[tkingdoll]

Amy, a member of this board went to visit a psychic very recently and documented the experience here and at UK Skeptics.

The psychic was so inaccurate it was insulting, even mistaking a dead person for a live one.

So what do you say to that?

[pgwenthold]

i think the initial question is humorously desperate...it's almost like a nerdy guy saying to the head cheerleader "if i was really built and i played football and i was good looking, would you go out on a date with me?" to me it shows how badly people want to believe. when they cant provide proof, they just go into a "what-if" fantasy and, by putting people into a situation where they theoretically accept their fantasy, it makes it seem that much more real.

I was going to say something like,

"Suppose you were crawling in the sewer and found a stack of gold bars. Would you keep them, or would you try to find the rightful owner?"

It is about as likely to happen (more likely, even, because there is actually a non-zero chance I might be crawling in a sewer someday)

[Blackwell]

...

[kieran]

Hey! You people. Imagine if AmyWilson went to a psychic and wasn't such a gullable fool ... Do we think she'd notice all the failed guesses? Do you think she'd understand the concept of cold reading? Do you think she'd notice that what's usually going on is TBer's providing information rather than the 'psychic'?

Of course this is all completely hypothetical and never ever going to happen.

(Note - message addressed to the rest of you as AmyWilson never follows up on a thread she starts.)

[FramerDave]

FWIW, I did talk to a tarot card reader about five years ago. I decided to keep an open mind, and see if he could tell me anything accurate and specific.

I asked him if he could tell me about my mother. That's all I said, didn't lead him in any direction. He told me that she was happy and was glad to be at a place in her life where she was able to do some things for herself, said he saw something about education or taking classes.

Ok, that's cool. Then I pointed out that she had passed away almost ten years before.

Now I'm sure that someone could spin his reading into something meaningful, maybe she had found the happiness in the afterlife that she had not found in life, or that the education was her learning all the mystical secrets of life, or whatnot.

BUT. And a big but...

Don't you think that being DEAD is sort of a big enough thing and important enough that any psychic ot tarot card reader or anyone with supernatural knowledge should have picked up on it????

But I guess the bleevers would just tell me that my negative energies messed up the reading, or he wasn't a real tarot card reader, or the moon wasn't in the right phase, or or or ad nauseum.

[tkingdoll]

Hey! You people. Imagine if AmyWilson went to a psychic and wasn't such a gullable fool ... Do we think she'd notice all the failed guesses? Do you think she'd understand the concept of cold reading? Do you think she'd notice that what's usually going on is TBer's providing information rather than the 'psychic'?

Of course this is all completely hypothetical and never ever going to happen.

(Note - message addressed to the rest of you as AmyWilson never follows up on a thread she starts.)

This has got nothing to do with your post but I just wanted to tell you that your avatar has been my favourite for a long time. In fact, I've even saved it to my hard drive.

Carry on.

[Luke T.]

Let's assume people on believer's websites went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would these people do if a psychic failed to tell them anything significant that they couldn't have known?

What if the psychics peppered them with really mundane, vague information, that could be true for almost anyone, at a rate of about one per second, and simply waited for them to find a connection with one of the statements, and used their body language to determine this, and then followed up with a further barrage of comments, prompting them for responses every step of the way, hoping they'll only remember the hits, and forget the many misses?

What if the psychics claimed to be in touch with their father whom they miss dearly, and are despearete to talk to, and desperate to know he is really happy and well, yet all he wants to ask them about is how their uncle, who has a 'B' sounding name, who they barely knew, is doing at his new job?

What if the psychics told them to "go home and think about it", when they knew damn well their dad isn't called Sarah, and doesn't have a pet Leopard!

What if the psychics failed to hit any many major points (that happened), and claimed to tell them their future, but then none of it actually came true?

Would they still be believers, even though they know psychics (or some) are fake?

I was reading Sylvia Browne's latest update on her website, and she had written a big section about James Randi, criticizing him as being a bad investigator. If james Randi has had lots of books published, and is very well known for investigating fraud, obviously he is good at investigating fraud, or people wouldn't buy his books. It's just that simple.

It's true :)

Outstanding!

[Luke T.]

Here's my story about a psychic who 'knew' something they couldn't have possibly known. Years ago, one of our secretaries was very excited about going to a psychic. She was approached by the psychic in the women's restroom at a nightclub, and the psychic told her that she had lost a baby. Our secretary had indeed suffered a miscarriage so the psychic was correct. She kept saying over and over, "How did she know?". I thought it was just a lucky guess but many years later, I came across a statistic that said 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage:

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1192.asp

Apparently, this psychic was drumming up business by approaching women over a certain age (late 20's-30's) and telling them they had lost a baby.

A con used by many a horsetrack tout. :)

[Outhere]

When a person refers to others as "You People" I always see someone like George Wallace blocking the way to Little Rock high school, shouting to black students "You people ought to go home!" Or a fundamentalist preacher yelling at a gay funeral, "You people are going to hell!" Actually the You People usually turn out to have right on their side, so there is no need to respond to the trolls.

[AmyWilson]

So called psychics NEVER give information that they could not possibly have known.


Prove it.

You've never been to a psychic to know. I've heard stories before, in real life and on TV, and so have you, about psychics knowing things they couldn't have known. How do you explain this?

If John Edward, Sylvia Browne, etc, wasn't any good at being psychic, why do MILLIONS go for a reading? Obviously Edward and Brown are good psychics, otherwise they wouldn't be recommended by everyone.

If Edward and Brown wasn't good psychics, no one would go see them. How do you explain the stories of people getting good readings (and knowing life events, etc) from them? Cold reading? Mind-reading?

[ruach1]

I went to a psychic once. She said I was a dog in a former life. So I bit her.
:scorgi

:)

[I less than three logic]

Prove it.

You've never been to a psychic to know. I've heard stories before, in real life and on TV, and so have you, about psychics knowing things they couldn't have known. How do you explain this?

If John Edward, Sylvia Browne, etc, wasn't any good at being psychic, why do MILLIONS go for a reading? Obviously Edward and Brown are good psychics, otherwise they wouldn't be recommended by everyone.

If Edward and Brown wasn't good psychics, no one would go see them. How do you explain the stories of people getting good readings (and knowing life events, etc) from them? Cold reading? Mind-reading?
This first part is not, in any way, meant to discredit you questions, but please use the correct subject verb agreement. Singular past tense verb: was. Plural past tense verb: were. Hence, “If Edward and Brown were not (or weren’t) good psychics, no one would go see them.” I’m sorry, but this was driving me crazy. You repeated this throughout the entire post. :(

Ok, now moving on to actually address what you’ve said.

I think you could benefit from knowing exactly what cold reading is. A good way to get a perspective on how well you know a topic is by attempting to explain it to others. Perhaps you could explain it to us, using as much detail as you possibly can.

ETA - I forgot to mention that you should explain it in your own words. You won't learn anything about how well you understand this if you just repeat what you've heard or read.

[NobbyNobbs]

If John Edward, Sylvia Browne, etc, wasn't any good at being psychic, why do MILLIONS go for a reading? Obviously Edward and Brown are good psychics, otherwise they wouldn't be recommended by everyone.

If Edward and Brown wasn't good psychics, no one would go see them.


If Jesus wasn't really the Messiah, millions wouldn't go to church. If Mohammed wasn't really a prophet, millions wouldn't pray to Allah. If Ben Afleck wasn't really a good actor, millions wouldn't...oh wait. Never mind.

The point is that "majority rule" is not a scientific precept. Simply because all the sheep are following the shephard does not mean the shephard knows what he is doing.

[JohnF_73]

You've never been to a psychic to know.
I have. Just not the massively expensive famous ones you would have heard about.


I've heard stories before, in real life and on TV, and so have you, about psychics knowing things they couldn't have known. How do you explain this?

Because people are gullible and easily fooled.


If John Edward, Sylvia Browne, etc, wasn't any good at being psychic, why do MILLIONS go for a reading?

Because they are good at cold reading, and those people have a desperate need to believe in something.


Obviously Edward and Brown are good psychics, otherwise they wouldn't be recommended by everyone.
Again, simply not true.


If Edward and Brown wasn't good psychics, no one would go see them.

Again, not true.


How do you explain the stories of people getting good readings (and knowing life events, etc) from them? Cold reading? Mind-reading?

Yes, cold reading. Or Hot Reading.

You said you got an appointment with Edwards. Care to tell us what unique insights he had into your life or loved ones?

[Sleepy]

If those funny wrestling people from the WWF [happily I have no idea of their names] are on TV all the time, obviously they are good wrestlers, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

I've trained with so-called pro-wrestlers and despite the conventional wisdom, many of them are very good at real wrestling, as well as being top-notch acrobats, bodybuilders and stuntmen.

I think you really have to understand what you're faking before you can fake it well. Give due respect to the pro-wrestlers.

[TheBoyPaj]

If someone claiming to be psychic told me things that they could not possibly know or guess, I would think it was amazing and want to know more.

However, you only have to look into a few basic principles of magic and deception to realise that the realm of things that it is possible to find out or guess is very, very large. So large, in fact, that it's virtually impossible for someone in such an uncontrolled situation to judge whether the information offered is the result of genuine psychic ability or plain trickery.

[Rasmus]

Let's assume you people on James Randi's website, or James Randi himself, went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known?

If they *really* couldn't have possibly known them, and if guessing is out of the question, then I would start believing in their powers.

Guess what, though: I won't *really* be holding my breath waiting for that to happen ...

What if the psychics told you your past,

My past is not really in the realm of things that they couldn't possibly know about. Whereas Sylvia... oh, nevermind ...

hitting many major points (that happened),

Those are even further away from the list of things they couldn't possibly know. Major points. They are important to me. I talk about them, to people, so knowing about them is not exactly all that remarkable.

stuff happening in your life, and told you your future?

Big deal. I can tell you my future, too. I am sure other peolpe can, too.

I refuse to belive that anyone can tell the future unless they hit the lottery big several times. At least 5 Jackpots in the 8 digit range.

Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?


What are you getting at here? If I *knew* that psychics were real, I would not be 'sceptical' about that. (Other than the default sceptical assumption that I might be mistaken ...)

So what?

I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not.


I don't even know who the guy is, but guess what: He's not a good spsychic. I'd bet you a million bucks on that, but somebody beat me to it ...

Oh well, I guess he has to make a living somehow. If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.


Not to be offensive, but are you serious? And if so, are you dumb?

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?

Why would I waste my time and money on a form of entertainment that I have no interest in? A form of entertainment that stands a pretty good chance of being highly unethical?

I have to admit I spend half a day last year looking at St Paul's Cathedral in London - but that had the great architecture counting in it's favour.

[Moochie]

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?


You're kidding, right?

M.

[arthwollipot]

Prove it.

You've never been to a psychic to know. I've heard stories before, in real life and on TV, and so have you, about psychics knowing things they couldn't have known. How do you explain this?

Prove it. How do you know I"ve never been to a psychic? Hey wait, that must mean... YOURE PSYCHIC!!!

If John Edward, Sylvia Browne, etc, wasn't any good at being psychic, why do MILLIONS go for a reading? Obviously Edward and Brown are good psychics, otherwise they wouldn't be recommended by everyone.

Well, just because they're not good psychics dosn't mean that they can't be good con artists. They are indeed very very good at what they do... which is to fleece gullible fools out of their money.

If Edward and Brown wasn't good psychics, no one would go see them. How do you explain the stories of people getting good readings (and knowing life events, etc) from them? Cold reading? Mind-reading?

This appeal to popularity says absolutely nothing about their abilities as psychics. It does say a lot about their abilities as con artists, and about the stupidity of people in general.

[Ausmerican]

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?
Would James Randi have the "balls" to go to one of the popular psychics? Absolutely.
Would one of the popular psychics have the "balls" to do a reading on Randi? Not bloody likely.

[blutoski]

Let's assume you people on James Randi's website, or James Randi himself, went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future? Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?

I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not. Oh well, I guess he has to make a living somehow. If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?


Randi has probably gone to hundreds of psychics. Thats how he learned their tricks. Several of his visits have been televised. Most of the famous debunkers have spent their careers frustrating psychics by not playing the game. I read somewhere that Houdini had visited over a thousand psychics.

The key phrase is "could not have known". I work in IT right now, managing databases. One set of customers that is noteworthy is a consortium of magicians, who pay to tap into customer information. It's quite legal. (have you read the disclaimer on any customer loyalty cards? The points are payment for their right to sell your transaction information to third parties.) These magicians are mostly mind readers, psychics, and so on. In my opinion, it's racketeering, but apparently nobody cares enough to sue.

I remember a few years ago, the only thing a psychic got right about me was my astrological sign. This is not amazing in a world of Google, where my CV is available on my website. What was especially revealing was that she provided some of the fake information I had put on my website, as well, which pretty much exposed her warm reading techniques. This is one reason that psychics ask for your name and birthdate when making appointments, even though they're not astrologers: they want to pull your history at AirMiles.


To answer your question, though, if a psychic produced something that he "could not possibly have known," then it would certainly be a point in his favour.

All my visits to psychics play out as expected: vagueness, fishing.

[arthwollipot]

It would be impossible to come up with something that a psychic "could not possibly know" in this day and age.

[blutoski]

It would be impossible to come up with something that a psychic "could not possibly know" in this day and age.

I thought about that, and there's always something: "what's the codeword I wrote on a piece of paper and sealed in an envelope in my vault at the bank."

If a psychic or medium produced that on the first try, it would be appropriate to consider this very supportive of their claim to clairvoyance.

[The Painter]

Didn’t Houdini give his wife a codeword? If was possible to communicate from beyond the grave he would use it so she would know it was him. It never happened. If Houdini couldn’t do it, nobody can.


It’s true.

[plindboe]

Let's assume you people on James Randi's website, or James Randi himself, went to a psychic, for instance, John Edward or Sylvia Browne. What would you people do if a psychic told you things that they couldn't have known? What if the psychics told you your past, hitting many major points (that happened), stuff happening in your life, and told you your future? Would you still be skeptical, even though you know psychics (or some) are real?

Depends on how the reading goes, you person. For a reading to work it takes two people, the psychic to offer guesses and the sitter to attribute them to his/her own life and provide additional info that the psychic can build on. I'd be aware of this problem, and therefore wouldn't provide any info for the sitter to use. In the real world this always yield some terribly embarrassing readings, as the psychic panics. But if we imagine a situation where a psychic despite of my silence would offer specific details, I'd at first consider whether I was experiencing a hot reading. But if he/she offered something quite specific that couldn't have been discovered through reasearch, then yes, I'd become a believer.


I was reading James Randi's latest update on his website, and he had written a big section about John Edward. James Randi has never even met John Edward, yet alone know if he's a good psychic or not.

That's like saying that you have to meet David Copperfield in person to know whether he's a good magician or not. You need to work on your logic.


Oh well, I guess he has to make a living somehow. If John Edward and Sylvia Browne are on TV all the time, obviously they are good psychics, or they wouldn't be on TV. It's just that simple.

Again, your reasoning is flawed.


Would you James Randi people ever go to a psychic? Or one of the popular psychics? Or do you have the balls?

I wouldn't spend my own money on something I didn't expect to work. But if someone offered to pay for me, or a psychic offered a free reading I'd like to experience it.

[bruto]

Here's my story about a psychic who 'knew' something they couldn't have possibly known. Years ago, one of our secretaries was very excited about going to a psychic. She was approached by the psychic in the women's restroom at a nightclub, and the psychic told her that she had lost a baby. Our secretary had indeed suffered a miscarriage so the psychic was correct. She kept saying over and over, "How did she know?". I thought it was just a lucky guess but many years later, I came across a statistic that said 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage:

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1192.asp

Apparently, this psychic was drumming up business by approaching women over a certain age (late 20's-30's) and telling them they had lost a baby. A 15% chance of being correct is not great, but when the guess is correct, the prospective client is really going to be impressed. Certainly using someone's miscarriage to get new business is as low as can be, and while I think John Edward is a pretty disgusting person, at least he doesn't use the miscarriage statistic to his own advantage. Not yet, anyway.

By the way, James Randi has visited 'real' psychics. In that Nova show from a few years ago, he travels to Russia to visit with two women who claim to be able to tell everything about a person by looking at their photograph. He shows them a picture of the serial killer Ted Bundy and the women don't have too much to say about him, other than he seems lke a nice guy. During the reading, the women became frustrated because James Randi was not giving them any information. They said he was shutting them off, but their claim was to make their reading based on the photograph. In truth, their readings were normally successful because their usual clients went along with the game and voluntereed information whenever a guess turned out to be correct. By not volunteering information, James Randi ruined the effect and the psychics came off looking like compete idiots.

John Edwards also depends upon the cooperation of his clients. They ignore is wrong guesses and volunteer additional information when a guess is somewhat close to the truth. It's the same game we've seen over and over again, so that's why we know John Edwards has no supernatural abilities.

In any case, John Edwards is not even a psychic. He talks to the dead, so he is a necromancer, not a psychic.

If 15 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage, there's a good chance that a considerably larger number of women by a certain age have suffered this, since many people get pregnant more than once. It's not a bad bet, really, especially since it's just the sort of situation where an occasional hit will be better remembered than many misses.

[bruto]

This whole question is like asking "If you saw a pig fly would you believe pigs have wings?" I might if I saw a pig fly. But pigs don't fly.

[TheBoyPaj]

I thought about that, and there's always something: "what's the codeword I wrote on a piece of paper and sealed in an envelope in my vault at the bank."

If a psychic or medium produced that on the first try, it would be appropriate to consider this very supportive of their claim to clairvoyance.

How secure are banks? Would it be impossible for an employee to find this out?

[Mr. Stick]

If Amy's threads were automatically diverted to the humor forum, they wouldn't waste so many people's time!
:) It's true

[Powa]

Yes, but they would be inappropriate there too, as they're not particularly funny.

[Admiral]

How secure are banks? Would it be impossible for an employee to find this out?

While it would be very, VERY difficult for a researcher to discover what had been sealed in a safety deposit box, I suppose it's possible. So here's an idea- seal the word in something before you put it in. Maybe a plastic envelope that had been melted shut.

If you wanted to get fancy, you could probably add some chemicals to the paper that would cause it to decompose in a few minutes after being released to oxygen. However, by that point I think you're just being uberparanoid.

[petre]

While it would be very, VERY difficult for a researcher to discover what had been sealed in a safety deposit box, I suppose it's possible. So here's an idea- seal the word in something before you put it in. Maybe a plastic envelope that had been melted shut.

If you wanted to get fancy, you could probably add some chemicals to the paper that would cause it to decompose in a few minutes after being released to oxygen. However, by that point I think you're just being uberparanoid.

Ah...I need to open the envelope in a chamber of inert gasses...*scribbles notes*

[Jon.]

Didn’t Houdini give his wife a codeword? If was possible to communicate from beyond the grave he would use it so she would know it was him. It never happened. If Houdini couldn’t do it, nobody can.


It’s true.

It was a series of 10 words, based on their secret code they had used during mentalism tricks. The words were:

Roseabelle
Answer
Tell
Pray
Answer
Look
Tell
Answer
Answer
Tell

[Admiral]

Wow, I never really stepped back and looked at the full set of threads that AmyWilson has started. Among others:

"Your thoughts on astral projection."
"Public schools have no right to teach evolution."
"I was voted smartest in elementary school."
"I saw a UFO in high school."
"Public schools have no right to teach evolution."
"George W. Bush is the greatest man alive today."
"Prove to me that evolution is real."
"I read the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan -- it sucks."

And my personal favorite- "Women should have less rights then men." The opening post does its best to be ridiculous.

Every single thing Amy does is admirably trollish. I've never seen a troll attempt to be inflammatory with so little subtlety.

In fact, when her stating "It's true :-)" on the astral projection thread bothered some people, she started using it as her trademark.

I think everyone on this forum can safely ignore Amy. I know it's tempting to mess around with trolls, but in this case, it's just ridiculous.

And some advice to Amy- shave and get a girlfriend. Maybe then you can move out of your mom's basement.

[bjb]

Thanks, I missed the one about George Bush. Maybe I'm the only one who thought Amy was funny, but she's totally lost her sense of humor in this thread. Now she's just boring.

[De_Bunk]

Amywilson...

Yes..they would be scared...

its true :)

DB