Help! We're Losing Our National Soul!

[shecky]

So sez Prez Bush (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193582,00.html) .

The national anthem should be sung in English — not Spanish — President Bush declared Friday, amid growing restlessness over whether to grant legal status to immigrants who are in the United States illegally.

"One of the important things here is that we not lose our national soul," the president exclaimed.

[headscratcher4]

Apparently, "soul" can only be understood in English. The Bible is in English, that should settle the question. Hell, if Iraqi's spoke English, we wouldn't have had to go over there and democratize 'em.

[Manny]

You should be aware of just how twisted around the President's comments were in that AP story. The "national soul" comment was not in response to the Spanish version of the national anthem as the article implies. Here are his actual comments:Q Mr. President, a cultural question for you. There is a version of the National Anthem in Spanish now. Do you believe it will hold the same value if sung in Spanish as in English?

THE PRESIDENT: No I don't, because I think the National Anthem ought to be sung in English. And I think people who want to be a citizen of this country ought to learn English, and they ought to learn to sing the National Anthem in English.

(snipped several minutes of questions about Iran, gas prices, Katrina and other stuff)

Q Yes, Mr. President, on Monday, several million illegal immigrants worried about some forms of immigration legislation in the Congress are going to walk off the job and keep their kids home from schools. What is your view of this call for a national boycott on Monday?

THE PRESIDENT: I'm not a supporter of boycotts. I am a supporter of comprehensive immigration. I understand how difficult this issue is for some people here in Washington and around the country, but there is -- my judgment that enforcing our border requires a -- and by the way, I think most Americans agree that we've got to enforce our border. I don't think there's any question about that --

Q Do you think --

THE PRESIDENT: Let me finish, please, Bob, thank you -- that there needs to be interior enforcement, as well. But I recognize it's hard to enforce the border and have interior enforcement if there is a smuggling network that's bringing people across and there's a forgery network that's providing people false documents. And, therefore, I believe a temporary worker program will make it easier to enforce the border, as well as have interior enforcement.

If somebody is coming across to do a job on a temporary basis, they don't need to sneak across. They don't need a coyote to stuff them in the back of an 18-wheeler. They don't need to walk across the desert and risk their lives. And so a rational way to make sure our border is enforced is to have a temporary worker program. And that's what I support.

I think it's very important for people, when they do express themselves, they continue to do so in a peaceful way, in a respectful way -- respectful of how highly charged this debate can become. One of the things that's very important is when we debate this issue that we not lose our national soul. One of the great things about America is that we've been able to take people from all walks of life bound as one nation under God. And that's the challenge ahead of us.

And I look forward to working with members of both political parties to get a bill out of the United States Senate and into conference, which would then mean we have a chance to get a comprehensive bill to my desk. And I want a comprehensive bill, one that enforces the border, one that makes sure that we've got interior enforcement procedures in place that actually work, one that provides a temporary worker process for people, one that does not provide automatic citizenship -- I don't think anybody really wants there to be automatic amnesty for people -- one that allows somebody here to be able to get in -- if they want to be a citizen, to be able to get in line, but not the front of the line but the back of the line.

And that's what I'm for, a comprehensive plan. I think we can get one done if people would set aside politics and focus on what's best for the United States of America.

[bob_kark]

Why not just place a GPS tracking device on the national soul. I really think it would be worth the investment, especially if its possible to lose it so easily.

[Evolver]

I thought James Brown & Aretha Franklin were the caretakers of our national soul.

[shecky]

I wonder how much the National Soul is worth? Could we sell it to pay off the national debt?

[bob_kark]

I thought we already sold it to special interest groups.

[Beerina]

Well, you brought it on, buddy! You are letting the immigrants in wholesale in exchange for votes.

Although economically, he may be doing a good thing according to some theories (immigrants pay more taxes than they use in services, contrary to disparaging belief), I'm sure that's just coincidental to his real political reason.

[Tmy]

Oh Jose can you seeeeeeeee!

[Rob Lister]

I think the term 'national soul' conveys the intended meaning.

Perhaps a better term for the logically equipped might be 'national culture' but even that doesn't convey it better, it's just less baggaged.

In other words, "you left mexico for the U.S., and now you seek to turn us into mexico."

[pgwenthold]

There is a heck of a lot more to Mexico than just the language. In fact, the language isn't the problem there. It would take a lot more to turn us into Mexico than just speaking spanish.

[Rob Lister]

I'm not sure what you mean.

[senorpogo]

You should be aware of just how twisted around the President's comments were in that AP story. The "national soul" comment was not in response to the Spanish version of the national anthem as the article implies.

Manny setting the record straight. Nicely done.

[pgwenthold]

I'm not sure what you mean.

"In other words, "you left mexico for the U.S., and now you seek to turn us into mexico.""

Speaking spanish will not turn the US into Mexico.

[shecky]

I think the term 'national soul' conveys the intended meaning.

Perhaps a better term for the logically equipped might be 'national culture' but even that doesn't convey it better, it's just less baggaged.

In other words, "you left mexico for the U.S., and now you seek to turn us into mexico."

Is that what he meant?

[Rob Lister]

That's my interpretation.

[DanishDynamite]

The US doesn't have a soul. No one does. DUH!

[CFLarsen]

OK. The official language of the United States is English.

I believe that there is no law about this. If not, let's see Bush push that legislation.

[Rob Lister]

OK. The official language of the United States is English.

I believe that there is no law about this. If not, let's see Bush push that legislation.

The US has no official language. The de facto national language is English (or the American version of it).

I'm not sure what good it would do to have an official national language. We're not France and are not going to make laws prohibiting non-english (american?) signs.

[Manny]

The US has no official language. The de facto national language is English (or the American version of it).

I'm not sure what good it would do to have an official national language. We're not France and are not going to make laws prohibiting non-english (american?) signs.Although I'll admit that a law allowing us to bitch-slap Americans who do that whole faux-British thing wouldn't be so terrible.

[Cleon]

The US has no official language. The de facto national language is English (or the American version of it).

I'm not sure what good it would do to have an official national language. We're not France and are not going to make laws prohibiting non-english (american?) signs.

On this, we agree completely. I don't think the government has any business regulating what language people speak.

(On a side note--English is English. Americans might have a funny accent, you could even call it a dialect, but it's the same damn language.)

[Rob Lister]

On this, we agree completely. I don't think the government has any business regulating what language people speak.


But they have a vested interest in as much as they teach the people to read and write. In matters such as that, I can see where a single-language law as it regards such vested interests might be a good idea.

[David Swidler]

On this, we agree completely. I don't think the government has any business regulating what language people speak.

(On a side note--English is English. Americans might have a funny accent, you could even call it a dialect, but it's the same damn language.)

I believe it was Max Wertheim who said, "A sprach is a dialekt mit an armey un a flot."

Or, for the Yiddishly challenged, "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."

[Ryan O'Dine]

If Mexicans have to sing the Anthem in English, I think mute people should have to also, instead of that blatantly unAmerican ASL.

[Tmy]

you know what bugs me. How "American the Beautiful" is kinda replacing the anthem, cause its eaiser to sing.

[Regnad Kcin]

I believe it was Max Wertheim who said, "A sprach is a dialekt mit an armey un a flot."And it was Elmer Fudd who said, "I own a mansion und a yacht."

[Mercutio]

Manny setting the record straight. Nicely done.
Yeah, it's not the Mexicans Bush is opposed to:One of the things that's very important is when we debate this issue that we not lose our national soul. One of the great things about America is that we've been able to take people from all walks of life bound as one nation under God. It's those damned atheists again.

[Zep]

So who let all the atheists into the country in the first place??

[bob_kark]

So who let all the atheists into the country in the first place??

It was the Clinton administration!

[LostAngeles]

you know what bugs me. How "American the Beautiful" is kinda replacing the anthem, cause its eaiser to sing.

It's also easier to play on the violin, in my opinion. I really hate having to jump to high notes sometimes and America the Beautiful at least builds up to it rather than, "...were so gallantly streaming/And the rockets red glare...

[Art Vandelay]

On this, we agree completely. I don't think the government has any business regulating what language people speak.It does have business regulating what language the government speaks, and what language people have to speak if they want to talk with the government.

[Polaris]

Although I'll admit that a law allowing us to bitch-slap Americans who do that whole faux-British thing wouldn't be so terrible.

Can I start yanking down any sign that says "Piccadilly" Way or Lane or Manor or something similar?

[TragicMonkey]

It does have business regulating what language the government speaks, and what language people have to speak if they want to talk with the government.

What is the purpose of government? What is the purpose of language?

I would say "to maintain civil order" and "to communicate".

And that insisting on only speaking one language regardless of who actually speaks what is detrimental to both purposes.

[Art Vandelay]

It should up to the people to decide what they think is the best way to maintain civil order and communicate. If the people think that the government should only speak English, they have the right to make that decision. Having standards, and asking people to follow those standards, does maintain order and aid communication.

[Cleon]

It does have business regulating what language the government speaks,

You could argue that. But the government is (in theory) merely representative of the people. So that only goes so far.


and what language people have to speak if they want to talk with the government.

No. The first amendment guarantees the right to petition for redress of grievances. Full stop.

[Art Vandelay]

You could argue that. But the government is (in theory) merely representative of the people. So that only goes so far.How so? The government is a representative of the people. So if the people say that the government should only speak English, then the government should only speak English.

No. The first amendment guarantees the right to petition for redress of grievances. Full stop.It doesn't say that the government has to listen, nor does it say that the people have the right to petition for redress of grievances in any manner they choose. The Constitution also says that the President must give a State of the Union speech every year. Are Hispanics having their rights violated when the President gives a speech in only English? Although I wonder what the rules are on giving Miranda rights to people who don't speak English.

[Mercutio]

And that insisting on only speaking one language regardless of who actually speaks what is detrimental to both purposes.
New Hampshire nearly cut its own metaphorical throat a few years back, when we decided to make English our official language. The debate focused on immigrants, of course, and how something so important as language should not be compromised for silly reasons such as the fact that newcomers speak something else.
3-C:1 Official State Language
I. The official language of the state of New Hampshire shall be English. English is designated as the language of all official public documents and records, and of all public proceedings and nonpublic sessions.
II. For the purposes of this chapter, "official public documents and records" are all documents officially compiled, published, or recorded by the state.
III. For the purposes of this chapter, "public proceedings and nonpublic sessions" mean those proceedings and sessions as defined in RSA 91-A, and includes the information recorded at such proceedings and sessions.
Then we realized that we border on Quebec, whose official business must be in French.3-C:2 Exceptions
The provisions of this chapter shall not apply:
I. To all public proceedings between the state of New Hampshire and the province of Quebec when, in the opinion of the state administrator involved in such proceedings, it may be necessary to conduct such proceedings between Quebec and New Hampshire wholly or partially in French, and to use official public documents and records during the public proceedings, which are written wholly or partially in French....and that there are a whole lot of other reasons that having an official language is silly:II. To instruction in foreign language courses, or other requirements of the state university system.
III. To instruction designed to aid students with limited English in a timely transition and integration into the general education system.
IV. To the promotion of international commerce, tourism, and sporting events.
V. When deemed to interfere with needs of the justice system.
VI. When the public good, public safety, health, or emergency services require the use of other languages.
VII. When expert testimony or witnesses may require a language other than English; provided, however, that for purposes of deliberation, decision making, or recordkeeping, the official version of such testimony or commentary shall be the officially translated English-language version.
3-C:3 Employment
No person shall be denied employment with the state or with any political subdivision of the state based solely upon the person's lack of facility in a foreign language, except when related to bona fide job needs reflected in the exceptions listed in RSA 3-C:2.
3-C:4 Construction
This chapter shall not be construed in any way to infringe on the rights of citizens under the state constitution or the constitution of the United States in the use of language in activities or functions conducted in the private sector. No agency or officer of the state shall place any restrictions or requirements regarding language usage for businesses operating in the private sector other than in official documents, forms, submissions, or other communications directed to governmental agencies and officers, which communications shall be in English as recognized in this chapter.
Courtesy proenglish.org (http://www.proenglish.org/issues/offeng/states.html#nh)

[Manny]

I. The official language of the state of New Hampshire shall be English.Hee! So do they make you refer to those huge car-like things which carry cargo on the roads as "lorrys?" Do your courthouses have a little stylized picture of a man and a woman directing people to the "loo?" :D

[Mercutio]

Manny--this being NH, I can testify that there were indeed letters to the editor asking that our official language should be American. Oh, well...

[pgwenthold]

Sometimes, things are just too funny:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/414392p-350223c.html

WASHINGTON - President Bush says the national anthem should only be sung in English, but he was apparently singing a different tune during his first run for President and at his inaugural festivities.

On the campaign trail in 1999, Bush would often sing along as the national anthem was sung in Spanish during stops in Hispanic communities, GOP scholar Kevin Phillips wrote in his book "American Dynasty."

After Bush was elected, Cuban exile and pop vocalist Jon Secada also sang the "The Star-Spangled Banner" in both English and Spanish at the 2001 opening ceremony of the presidential inaugural, according to media reports at the time

[Regnad Kcin]

President Bush says the national anthem should only be sung in English, but he was apparently singing a different tune during his first run for President and at his inaugural festivities...A flip-flop? It can't be!

[pgwenthold]

Nah, it's not a flip-flop, it's just pandering.

I don't doubt all along that Bush has always been opposed to singing the national anthem in any language outside of english. It's just that when it comes to getting votes, personal convictions go out the window. You do whatever you need to do to get the vote.

[Dr Adequate]

Hee! So do they make you refer to those huge car-like things which carry cargo on the roads as "lorrys?" Do your courthouses have a little stylized picture of a man and a woman directing people to the "loo?" Quail before our superior vocabulary, puny Americoid!

[TragicMonkey]

I'm surprised Bush cares for the national anthem at all. It only mentions God once, and then only in the fourth stanza which is three stanzas further than anyone ever sings.

Can't we just have a solely-instrumental national anthem? It would spare us celebrities humiliating themselves by mangling the singing. And nobody would be yelled at for forgetting the words.

[FreeChile]

Nah, it's not a flip-flop, it's just pandering.

I don't doubt all along that Bush has always been opposed to singing the national anthem in any language outside of english. It's just that when it comes to getting votes, personal convictions go out the window. You do whatever you need to do to get the vote.Yeah. Like Bush's being pro-choice in Texas back when. Hypocricy has something to do with it too.

[Tricky]

Laura can't seem to make up her mind either (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/immigration/3839480.html). Not even in a single interview.
Asked her opinion Wednesday, Laura Bush said, "I don't think there's anything wrong with singing it in Spanish."

She noted that "we are a nation of many, many languages" and that the country has already heard many versions of the anthem "like at the Super Bowl."

When it was pointed out that this position differed from her husband's, she had a different answer. "Well, I think it should be sung in English, of course," she said.

[Beth]

I honestly don't understand what the concern is with singing the national anthem in Spanish. To me, it is a sign of how much those singing it love their new country. I'm not sure about the whole immigation issue, it isn't something I have much first hand knowledge nor have I looked into the issue in much depth, but the behavior and attitudes of the anti-immigration folks make me want to support the other side.

[pgwenthold]

I honestly don't understand what the concern is with singing the national anthem in Spanish.

Of course there is none. Not really.

It is just an issue that some are trying to use for political gain, by turning a social non-issue into an outrage.

In fact, that been what I have tried to illustrate with my posts. Not that Bush is a flip-flopper or wrong, but that this whole thing about the national anthem is just being used as a political tool. In 2000, when Bush needed hispanic votes, he didn't have a problem with it. In 2006, it is now suddenly trumped up as some outrage in order to energize a different set of voters.

It's much ado about nothing. It wasn't a problem two weeks ago, and immigrants were singing a spanish version then. Why is it an issue now?

[kalen]

Why not just place a GPS tracking device on the national soul. I really think it would be worth the investment, especially if its possible to lose it so easily.

Don't forget to intercept all of it's email and phone calls.

[BPSCG]

I honestly don't understand what the concern is with singing the national anthem in Spanish. As long as what is being sung is the national anthem, and not something else set to the same tune, which is what Nuestro Himno (aka The Illegal Aliens' Anthem) is.

If the meaning of the translation is largely the same as in the original language, even if some minor liberties with the language have to be taken to preserve the meter, then it's the national anthem.

If the meaning of the original is not preserved - if entire passages are deleted and replaced with something new that is not in the original - then it is not the national anthem any more. If it somewhat resembles the original, you can call it a bastardized version of the national anthem.
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!
is not the same as
My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing.
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From every mountainside,
Let freedom ring.
even though they share the same melody.

[Regnad Kcin]

Asked her opinion Wednesday, Laura Bush said, "I don't think there's anything wrong with singing it in Spanish."

She noted that "we are a nation of many, many languages" and that the country has already heard many versions of the anthem "like at the Super Bowl."

When it was pointed out that this position differed from her husband's, she had a different answer. "Well, I think it should be sung in English, of course," she said.So she voted for it before she voted against it.

[Beth]

As long as what is being sung is the national anthem, and not something else set to the same tune, which is what Nuestro Himno (aka The Illegal Aliens' Anthem) is.

If the meaning of the translation is largely the same as in the original language, even if some minor liberties with the language have to be taken to preserve the meter, then it's the national anthem.

If the meaning of the original is not preserved - if entire passages are deleted and replaced with something new that is not in the original - then it is not the national anthem any more. If it somewhat resembles the original, you can call it a bastardized version of the national anthem.

Okay, in that case it's not the same. Is that why people are upset about it? Are they changing the lyrics to mean something different and then claiming it's still the national anthem? Because that's not the impression I have, but I don't know Spanish and can't translate it for myself.

.

[BPSCG]

Okay, in that case it's not the same. Is that why people are upset about it? Are they changing the lyrics to mean something different Yes.
and then claiming it's still the national anthem? That's unclear. They give it a different name - Nuestro Himno, which translates to Our Hymn or Our Anthem. That would suggest it's not intended to be considered a Spanish translation of The Star Spangled Banner, but rather something else entirely, for Hispanics only (the "us" implied in the "our" of the title).

It uses about half of the same language or approximate translation, but it also deletes and replaces a fair amount of Francis Scott Key's original language, with language words Key never wrote or intended, and, quite frankly, if the English translation of the Spanish is at all accurate, is grammatical nonsense.

In any case, the talking heads on the news are all calling it the Spanish version of the national anthem. And it ain't.

Let me find a link to a long dispute I had with Cleon about this, and post it here. I'll be back (he warned, menacingly...)

[BPSCG]

Okay, links to the other thread, where Cleon and I had a little tiff:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1606640#post1606640

A couple of replies on that page. Then you can skip to
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1608415#post1608415

[Beth]

BPSCG

Thanks for the links. I have to say, I'm with Cleon on this one, but I at least can understand your point of view.

[zakur]

Whew! Our senators have saved our national soul (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/10/ap/politics/mainD8HGKKEG0.shtml):

The Senate approved a resolution late Monday evening stating that the national anthem, the Pledge of Allegiance, the oath recited by immigrants when they are sworn in as citizens and other songs or statements symbolizing national unity should be spoken or sung in English.

[pgwenthold]

The Senate approved a resolution late Monday evening stating that the national anthem, the Pledge of Allegiance, the oath recited by immigrants when they are sworn in as citizens and other songs or statements symbolizing national unity should be spoken or sung in English.


As Rachel Maddow pointed out this morning, so much for "E pluribus Unum"

Did no one think about this?

[Manny]

So much for "E pluribus Unum"

Did no one think about this?I like it. "The National Anthem must be sung in English. Or Latin."

Alternatively, we could change the anthem to America the Beautiful and specify that not only must it be in English, it must be Ray Charles' rendition. No singing along, just listen and applaud at the end.

[insomneac]

It seems BPSCG may have been right about "Nuestro Himno".
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/04/30/transcript.mon/index.html
ZARRELLA: The song called "Nuestro Himno," or "Our Anthem" features Latin Pop artists and a Haitian-American star, Wyclef Jean. Its release is timed to coincide with Congress' return to Washington and the renewal of the debate over immigration reform. Adam Kidron, president of the company that handled the project, says it's definitely meant to sent a message.

ADAM KIDRON, BRITISH MUSIC PRODUCER: We' are trying to give the undocumented immigrants a real expression of patriotism.