Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you... [Archive]

hammegk

10th May 2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Cain: It is immature of you to reply to him with spam. We just had a little brou-ha-ha over this with Jedi Knight and (I think) Crossbow. Please observe the forum rules.

Genghis: If you want to present strong opinions, you should consider presenting an argument that supports that opinion.

Hmm, I consider the man's picture a very strong opinion. What else do you need?

Would a nuke in DC do it for you? Maybe some really ugly biocritter turned loose planet-wide in day? What kind of people would be more likely to take such an action than followers of the man in the picture? Note: no I don't think he would risk his worthless neck for some imaginary virgins in the afterlife.

But ok, maybe brushing his teeth would be a start? Who knows, although I don't believe it.

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Genghis: If you want to present strong opinions, you should consider presenting an argument that supports that opinion.

To me it is obvious. I think my post said it all. Any "religion" or "cult" that tells its followers to kill everyone in the entire planet who does not agree with their views should be outlawed, banned, and stamped out. That goes for any cult, in any land, that ever calls for murdering people of rival religions.

This, to me, is a no-brainer. Look what happened to David Koresh´s cult--and he didn´t even kill thousands of people.

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 09:27 AM

And before someone who doesn´t know anything about Islam chimes in with "Islam is the religion of peace..." No it is not! I have read the Koran, cover to cover, twice. The Koran states flatly, plainly and repeatedly that all unbelievers (kafirs) must be killed. They must be put to "Allahs punishing flames"... and so on.

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by hammegk
Hmm, I consider the man's picture a very strong opinion. What else do you need?

Something like this (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6575_Islamic_Dystopia_Looms) would start us off.

hammegk

10th May 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Something like this (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6575_Islamic_Dystopia_Looms) would start us off.

Point taken. Question: did you gain much from the comments & story the picture itself does not convey? I didn't.

Do you offer a rebuttal?

specious_reasons

10th May 2003, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Something like this (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=6575_Islamic_Dystopia_Looms) would start us off.

I read the article -

I’m not a fan of evangelicals like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, but I don’t recall ever seeing them look like this:

That's because looking like that doesn't sell well to the American public. Here, you have to spew hatred with a smile.

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by hammegk

Point taken. Question: did you gain much from the comments & story the picture itself does not convey? I didn't.

Do you offer a rebuttal?

Yeah, I gain a lot more from the article at LGF. For instance, there I learn the man's name, what he's doing, and the fact that the photo isn't just of an unfortunate man who dropped a stone on his toe.

What shall I rebut? I find little to disagree with in the article at LGF. I didn't read the comments.

I disagree with Genghis that we need to outlaw Islam, but I don't know how to 'rebut' his personal opinion. I believe in freedom of religion, he apparently does not. It seems to me that we're stuck at that position.

MattJ

Clancie

10th May 2003, 10:12 AM

We need to outlaw Islam as the most dangerous cult in the world. And that goes for any relgion that calls for all "unbelievers" to be converted or murdered.
Really?

You have heard of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the conquest of Mexico, and on and on and on, right?

And, GP, something about the tone of your posts seems awfully familiar....Sure you've only been here a week?:confused:

10th May 2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

To me it is obvious. I think my post said it all. Any "religion" or "cult" that tells its followers to kill everyone in the entire planet who does not agree with their views should be outlawed, banned, and stamped out. That goes for any cult, in any land, that ever calls for murdering people of rival religions.

This, to me, is a no-brainer. Look what happened to David Koresh´s cult--and he didn´t even kill thousands of people.

Hi GP :
In your avatar , is the man holding a violin , a guitar or a pencil?

Or is holding a killing weapon?

Thanks,
S&S
Edited to add the P.S.

P.S.
And yes, I know that you can also kill with a guitar a violin and a pencil . But were not invented to kill.

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

I disagree with Genghis that we need to outlaw Islam, but I don't know how to 'rebut' his personal opinion. I believe in freedom of religion, he apparently does not.

MattJ

Okay, so if I start a religion which commands all followers to kill Christians and Asians, and then my followers begin bombing wall street firms and Hollywood studioes, then they kill three thousand people in Tokyo with a dirty bomb, and then assassinate the Pope with a sniper rifle.... is that the kind of "freedom of religion" you believe in, aerocontrols?

S&S.. that´s Hemingway in my av.

10th May 2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

S&S.. that´s Hemingway in my av.

I know is Hemingway. I am asking you something else.Read again my question please.

Because if you are a fan of Hemingway literature, you would choose another picture.

Or your cult is about radical and killer extermination?

Thanks,
S&S

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Okay, so if I start a religion which commands all followers to kill Christians and Asians, and then my followers begin bombing wall street firms and Hollywood studioes, then they kill three thousand people in Tokyo with a dirty bomb, and then assassinate the Pope with a sniper rifle.... is that the kind of "freedom of religion" you believe in, aerocontrols?

False dilemma.

If you control a branch of a religion or a group that uses religion as an excuse to do all those things, then I come after you as a criminal, terrorist, or despot, depending on how much support you have.

I want the destruction of theocracy, not religion.

My Islamic roomate from Egypt also wants people like Bin Laden and al-Hakim dead or out of power. We need people like him on our side if we are going to be successful pulling the Islamic theocrats down in the Middle East. He understands that violent fundamentalists in power are as dangerous to his religion as Fred Phelps could be to Christianity. Telling him that we intend to outlaw his religion is not how we convince him and people like him to side with us rather than Bin Laden.

MattJ

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

False dilemma.

If you control a branch of a religion or a group that uses religion as an excuse to do all those things, then I come after you as a criminal, terrorist, or despot, depending on how much support you have.

Okay, let´s get more specific. My new group is founded on the principle that only we know the truth and the guaranteed path to the afterlife, and that all other people who do not agree with us must be slaughtered like pigs. My religion´s manifesto -- our sacred holy book -- clearly states that all unbelievers must be killed, by the billions, englulfed in towering columns of punishing flames. The most devout followers of my cult -- the ones who actually read the holy book every day and FOLLOW ITS EXACT WORDS AND COMMANDS -- these great disciples of mine bomb Tokyo and assassinate 50 Bishops in 2 months, plus they pipe-bomb thousands churches and have frequent shootouts in the streets of America with police officers.

Every day I preach my message of hate and press my followers to wage "holy war" on the Asians and Christians, and their American backers, reciting verses from my holy book about annihilating the dirty unbelievers. I spread my message on TV and radio, and in print, calling for holy war -- demanding it! My followers have grown to 50 million now, and perhaps half of them would, deep down in their hearts, like to see the violent destruction of all "unholy" civiliazations, so it can be replaced our own (correct) vision of what the world should be.

Is that the kind of religious freedom you had in mind?

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Is that the kind of religious freedom you had in mind?

What was unclear about me responding to your hypothetical by saying I would come after you as a criminal or terrorist?

If you break the law you go to jail.

If you command an army I support sending Marines after you.

The religion you speak of grows increasingly hypothetical. Islam does not fit the description you give.

Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030510/ap_on_re_us/saudi_expelled_4) is a real-world example of the kind of action I support.

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

What was unclear about me responding to your hypothetical by saying I would come after you as a criminal or terrorist?

If you break the law you go to jail.

If you command an army I support sending Marines after you.

The religion you speak of grows increasingly hypothetical. Islam does not fit the description you give.

Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030510/ap_on_re_us/saudi_expelled_4) is a real-world example of the kind of action I support.

Lol, do you know that the leaders of ISLAM call for Jihad on us every day, as does the Koran. Should we arrest them all? Now you´re with ME!

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Lol, do you know that the leaders of ISLAM call for Jihad on us every day. Should we arrest them all? Now you´re with me!

Some do, some do not.

I do not suggest that we arrest the Mullahs of Iran, however. I suggest we support the people of Iran in their overthrow, even to the point of arming Iranian guerillas, should it come to that. I would also support (direct, US) military action to overthrow the Islamic governments in Nigeria and Sudan (whether they call for our destruction or not). I also supported the overthrow of the Taliban, prior to 9/11.

I oppose theocracy. This is consistent with my support for freedom of religion. In the many places in the world where Islam lives alongside a secular state and does not hold power, I do not support arresting or killing Islamic leaders or their followers unless they are actively engaged in efforts to kill innocent people. Many are not.

Edit to note: I do not solely support the overthrow of Islamic tyrants. I also support removing secular tyrants, whether they are in Islamic countries or not. (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=129397&highlight=Invade+Africa#post129397)

MattJ

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 12:16 PM

Okay, so if I have a religion of 50 million people that expressly calls for the death of all non-believers worldwide, states such clearly in our sacred holy book, and if my followers begin to carry out such mass murders, would you arrest me every time I get on TV and call for the death of the Pope or US President?... or only if you could techinically link me to each crime, through wiretaps, etc. Why would you need a wiretap when I am TV calling for these murders every day, praising those followers who suicide bomb asian liquor stores, or throw grenades into Christian churches??

Mind you, I am on TV every day calling for violence and death, plus I have 1,000 high-ranking clerics who take to the pulpits and airwaves daily to demand and command our followers attack and kill -- to wage "holy murderous war" on those who don´t believe our religion.

I GUARANTEE YOU that if this was a true scenario, you would be calling for the banning of my cult, and the destruction of my murderous organization.

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
I GUARANTEE YOU that if this was a true scenario, you would be calling for the banning of my cult, and the destruction of my murderous organization.

Ah, you're a mind-reader.

We linked Bin Laden to a crime, and sent our military after him. Islam itself remains legal.

MattJ

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 12:22 PM

Answer my question, please. Would you let my cult go on killing thousands? possibly millions? Would you let myself and my clerics continue to take to the airwaves daily calling for more and more murders, and praising the success of the murderers?

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Answer my question, please. Would you let my cult go on killing thousands? possibly millions? Would you let myself and my clerics continue to take to the airwaves daily calling for more and more murders, and praising the success of the murderers?

Oh, ok, then. I get it. Your hypothetical religion does nothing but murder and kill, and has no peaceful or law-abiding followers at all. In the US, I would hunt down and arrest every one of them who broke the law. If you were in charge of a country that was conducting attacks on other countries, I would send the military after you and all your followers.

MattJ

Genghis Pwn

10th May 2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Oh, ok, then. I get it. Your hypothetical religion does nothing but murder and kill, and has no peaceful or law-abiding followers at all. In the US, I would hunt down and arrest every one of them who broke the law. If you were in charge of a country that was conducting attacks on other countries, I would send the military after you and all your followers.

MattJ

Please try to keep up. I already stated that only the most devout of my followers -- those who obey the EXACT WORDS AND TEACHINGS of my cult -- actually carry out the attacks, just like ISLAM. And I preach from Los Angeles, where I have temples and a satellite TV network to reach my followers around the world. Every day I tell them to kill our enemies, but the feds will never pin any one incident on me, because my holy book and my daily sermons already tell my followers what to do. So, will my "religious freedom" protect my murderous cult? Remember, my cult´s stated aim (in our holy book and preached by our leaders) is to kill every person on the planet who doesn´t believe in our religion, and we have begun to kill thousands already.

LMAO if you think such a cult would be tolerated. Look what happened to David Koresh!

max

10th May 2003, 12:43 PM

Genghis
At last a man after my own heart! Only you are more articulate. Owing to a stroke I have lost a lot of vocabulary. I indeed agree with everything you say. Posters on here are soooooo busy being PC they would stand there and die because a muslim said so. While they are all doing 'good' they are literally being taken for a ride. Long die Islam

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Please try to keep up.

It's hard to keep up with the irrational.

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
I already stated that only the most devout of my followers -- those who obey the EXACT WORDS AND TEACHINGS of my cult -- actually carry out the attacks, just like ISLAM.

LMAO if you think such a cult would be tolerated. Look what happened to David Koresh!

You contradict yourself. If the cult you suggest is 'just like ISLAM' then what are you LMAO-ing about, since Islam is clearly 'tolerated'? One of things you think is wrong - can you tell which one it is?

David Koresh was killed while trying to be arrested, as I suggested. His religion was not (http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc3.htm#now) outlawed, and is even suing the government today.

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
but the feds will never pin any one incident on me, because my holy book and my daily sermons already tell my followers what to do

Because we never put Islamic (or Christian) leaders who incite violence in jail, right?

Please try to get basic facts right.

max

10th May 2003, 12:51 PM

LONG LIVE GENGHIS PWN

Baker

10th May 2003, 01:42 PM

I know we don’t like blaming entire group of people but where are the moderate Muslims speaking out against 9/11 or the many suicide bombings in Israel?
Islam must give up its global political ambitions and its claim to supremacy over all other religions. This means an end to Islamic expansionism and intolerance, and possibly an end to Islamic ancient tradition of despotism. We can only hope that a wise and conscientious Islamic theologian, one who realizes the dangers in perpetuating the current Islamic beliefs, will come up with a formula that will allow giving up some of the basic tenets of the Koran.

hammegk

10th May 2003, 01:45 PM

aerocontrols

10th May 2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by hammegk

And sending in the military? Hmm, will you ask the UN?

I thought that I had, by now, made it perfectly plain that I would not ask the UN for a d#mn thing.

Nor did I let the lack of an 18th resolution stop me for supporting Hussein's removal recently, nor the lack of a 15th stop me from supporting his removal in 1998. Nor would I let the lack of resolutions stop me from advocating change of governments in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Syria, Iran, etc...

MattJ

hammegk

10th May 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Nor did I let the lack of an 18th resolution stop me for supporting Hussein's removal recently, nor the lack of a 15th stop me from supporting his removal in 1998. Nor would I let the lack of resolutions stop me from advocating change of governments in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Syria, Iran, etc...

MattJ

Actually I thought we pretty well agreed... ;) although I put stopping islamofascists at the top of the to-do list.

Your posts sometimes seem to let pc'ness overcome reality. :(

crackmonkey

10th May 2003, 02:50 PM

Genghis - your icon frightens me. Put a shirt on, for God's sake...

Bjorn

10th May 2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Please try to keep up. I already stated that only the most devout of my followers -- those who obey the EXACT WORDS AND TEACHINGS of my cult -- actually carry out the attacks, just like ISLAM. Jedi - if someone did the same with the Bible/Christianity ('obey the exact words and teachings'), would you apply the same rules?

Remember, my cult´s stated aim (in our holy book and preached by our leaders) is to kill every person on the planet who doesn´t believe in our religion, and we have begun to kill thousands already.Again, more or less as in the Bible? Do you need quotes from the Book? :confused:

Genghis Pwn

11th May 2003, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

You contradict yourself. If the cult you suggest is 'just like ISLAM' then what are you LMAO-ing about, since Islam is clearly 'tolerated'? One of things you think is wrong - can you tell which one it is?

...

Because we never put Islamic (or Christian) leaders who incite violence in jail, right?

Please try to get basic facts right.

LOL. First of all, you can turn on any TV or walk down to any local mosque and hear ISLAMIC clerics calling for Jihad against America. Who was the last Islamic cleric arrested for preaching hate and violence in America?? I have never heard of such a thing happening -- ever.

I just spent a year in Afghanistan and Egypt studying Islam. I speak Farsi. I have been to the Mosques and I know what is preached there. How much time have you spent in militant Islamic countries? How many times have you read the Koran? Do you even know anything about the subject that is being debated here, my friend, or did you just feel the need to assert your political correctness?

The reason ISLAM is tolerated is because it is "ancient" and its people are poor and not European and therefore it must be respected, according the doctrines of political correctness. That is why the UN let the Taliban persecute, humiliate, and literally beat their female aid workers in the streets of Afghanistan in the late 1990s. They could not get past their political correctness to call evil by its name -- let alone confront it in any way.

The whole entire point of this exercise and my imaginary cult -- although I really didn´t think I would have to explain this to you -- is that if I tried now, today, to start up a cult exactly like ISLAM, it would never be tolerated. Never. Do you think I would be allowed to start a cult based on the idea that all other religions must be wiped out, and their followers violently killed -- 9/11 style -- while at the same time institutionalizing the cruel and inhumane oppression of women and the surgical amputation of peoples´hands and legs for petty crimes?

If you think I would be allowed to start and run a cult like that while my followers (independent of me) were carrying out our basic beliefs by murdering innocent people by their thousands in the streets of America, bringing down skyscrapers, and secretly plotting to acquire weapons of mass destruction while all the time I was on TV praising their efforts and calling for more violence, you, my friend, are nuts.

http://pt.zkiller.de/uploads/islam.jpg

Just for fun... This is me standing with one of the most powerful Mullahs in Afghanistan. He is the topic Islamic cleric in Nimruz province, near the Iranian border.

http://pt.zkiller.de/uploads/mosque2.jpg

This is Hussein Mosque in Cairo, where I used to sit for hours, talking to Muslims about their beliefs.

Genghis Pwn

11th May 2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Bjorn

Again, more or less as in the Bible? Do you need quotes from the Book? :confused:

Yes, if the bible calls for the death and extermination of all non-believers, I would very much like to see that quote. I have never once in my life heard a Christan preacher calling for the death of people in other religions.

Hey Max, thanks. LONG DIE ISLAM! :D

Frank Newgent

11th May 2003, 06:36 AM

http://pt.zkiller.de/uploads/islam.jpg

That skyline. I know Detroit when I see it...

Which one is you, Genghis?

Genghis Pwn

11th May 2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Frank Newgent
http://pt.zkiller.de/uploads/islam.jpg

That skyline. I know Detroit when I see it...

Which one is you, Genghis?

Ha! I´m the dude with the five oclock shadow instead of the Mullah beard ;)

Frank Newgent

11th May 2003, 06:52 AM

http://pt.zkiller.de/uploads/islam.jpg

Oh yeah...

WIGGLE YOUR EYEBROWS!

DrBenway

11th May 2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
We need to outlaw Islam as the most dangerous cult in the world. And that goes for any relgion that calls for all "unbelievers" to be converted or murdered.
Well, we can't outlaw Islam. But there are other things we might do.

Irrational beliefs persist in large part because of communal reinforcement (http://skepdic.com/comreinf.html). If we can disrupt the appearance of consensus regarding such ideas as, "the Qu'ran is the literal word of Allah," or "All Arabs have the same opinion regarding Israel," then people will feel more encouraged to question what they've been taught.

I think that many mellow Muslims are out there, but are keeping a low profile, so as not to be attacked as apostates. I think if their silence became more costly to them, they'd take the risk of speaking out against the literalists, who appear to dominate the Muslim leadership.

How to make silence costly? By declaring their silence a tacit approval of the fundamentalist's position, and by calling attention to the inhumanity of the fundamentalist's view.

So when you meet a mellow Muslim, say something like, "I have heard that if a Muslim decides to change his religion, under Islamic law, he may face a death sentence. Do you, as a Muslim, accept this idea? Do you speak out in favor of freedom of conscience in matters of faith? Where are the Muslim leaders who share your views?"

Bjorn

11th May 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Yes, if the bible calls for the death and extermination of all non-believers, I would very much like to see that quote. I have never once in my life heard a Christan preacher calling for the death of people in other religions.
It does, many places. I have too little time to follow up as much as I would, but here is the first one I found, in Deuteronomy:

13:6
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.I thought you had read the Bible, Jedi? :confused:

crackmonkey

11th May 2003, 11:05 AM

That's calling for believers to kill those who attempt to seduce believers away from God. Pretty harsh, but a far cry from calling on believers to kill all non-believers.

Earthborn

11th May 2003, 12:59 PM

Just thinking about the practicality of it, ignoring the ethics...

We have about 1000 million muslims who are not going to denounce their deepest religious convictions just because those are suddenly illegal. So we'll have to punish them for violating our new anti-muslim law. What's the punishment going to be?

Death-penalty? I doubt you can get many people to be in favour of killing 1/6th of the world population.

Prison sentence? Would it be possible to lock up 1000 million people? Just imagine the cost of doing so. Just imagine the police force necessary to pull it of. Are we going to send them all to Australia/Siberia/the moon?

A fine? Most muslims are quite poor (screwed by their gourvernments who use their own warped form of Islam to justify their actions but don't enforce Zakat collection to help the poor) so most of them are not able to pay and would need an alternative punishment.

Also we need to define what constitutes 'following Islam'. Does it mean 'believing in a single God' ? Believing that Mohammed (pbuh) was/could have been His messenger? Believing the Koran as the word of God? The literal word of God?
Then we need to define what constitutes evidence that someone is actually believing it.

Lastly let's realise how effective outlawing actually is...
... During the prohibition is the US, surely no one was using alcohol...
... Because many drugs are illegal no one is using drugs...
... In many countries people are not allowed to carry fire arms, so there are no people with fire arms...
... In the Soviet Union Christianity was illegal. Surely nobody was christian...
... In China being a follower of Fa Lun Gong is illegal. Therefore there are no followers of Fa Lun Gong...
... Because prostitution is illegal in most parts of the US, there is no prostitution, right?

If you outlaw being Muslim, only outlaws are Muslim... :)

Cleopatra

11th May 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

I oppose theocracy. This is consistent with my support for freedom of religion. In the many places in the world where Islam lives alongside a secular state and does not hold power, I do not support arresting or killing Islamic leaders or their followers unless they are actively engaged in efforts to kill innocent people. Many are not.

Edit to note: I do not solely support the overthrow of Islamic tyrants. I also support removing secular tyrants, whether they are in Islamic countries or not. (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=129397&highlight=Invade+Africa#post129397)

MattJ

At the beginning. I thought that it was a humoristic thread...

But then, I thought that aerocontrols said it all, in those two paragraphs. Well said!

rustypouch

11th May 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Yes, if the bible calls for the death and extermination of all non-believers, I would very much like to see that quote. I have never once in my life heard a Christan preacher calling for the death of people in other religions.

How about this one from Deuteronomy 13:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God.

Peskanov

11th May 2003, 04:02 PM

Gengis Pwm,

----
quote:
Yes, if the bible calls for the death and extermination of all non-believers, I would very much like to see that quote. I have never once in my life heard a Christan preacher calling for the death of people in other religions.
----

Man, you don't read too much the bible, don't you?
The old testament is the history of the "choosen ones" (the jews), surviving and battling against their enemies (all the rest), with good old Jehova helping in the massacres. One of chapters depicts a battle against 1.000.000 etiopians which turns in a blood bath with the blessings of Yahve.
The old testament is full of invocations to god asking for killing the enemies of israel.
In the new testament the message is softened, but in the book of revelations, at the end, only the jews are saved, with the rest going down to the pit of fire.

So think twice. Peaceful Islam is possible, (and exist in some euroasiatic countries), exaclty as christianism. When the stomach is full, and the family is safe, few people is ready to take the gun...

a_unique_person

11th May 2003, 04:45 PM

http://www.swansealoyal.co.uk/foto_af_ian_paisley2.jpg

Ian Paisley.

http://aburriss.tripod.com/tbakker.jpg

tammy bakker

http://web2.iadfw.net/~elo/news/spong.html

Freethinkers Attacked by
Angry Christians
by Elroy Willis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHICAGO (EAP) - A Chicago based group of freethinkers was attacked yesterday by a group of fundamentalist Christians who think the freethinkers are a danger to our country and children.

The freethinking group whose motto is SPONG (Smart People Object to Nonexistent Gods) was passing out their literature outside a local restaurant when they were assaulted by a group of angry Christians who proceeded to forceably confiscate the pamphlets that the SPONG group was handing out to the restaurant's patrons and people passing by.

They then proceeded to set fire to the literature, all the while praising God and cursing free speech and free thinking.

"This group is very dangerous," said Herman Limpcock, leader of the radical Christian group. "We can't have people passing out information like this to the public. God dosen't want people to think for themselves, he wants them to follow His Holy word as it is written down in the Bible."

Bjorn

11th May 2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by crackmonkey
That's calling for believers to kill those who attempt to seduce believers away from God. Pretty harsh, but a far cry from calling on believers to kill all non-believers. Well, I think that's what's called for here:

13:12
If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13:13
Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

13:14
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

13:15
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

13:16
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.I'm sure others with more time can find many more examples. :(

a_unique_person

11th May 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Bjorn
Well, I think that's what's called for here:

I'm sure others with more time can find many more examples. :(

The amazing thing is how easy it is to find murder and mayhem in the old testament, or even some soft porn and incest.

Genghis Pwn

12th May 2003, 08:25 AM

That´s interesting about the bible. Yeah, I dont read it much. :D

Then again, like I said, I have never in my lifetime even heard of Christian preachers calling for the death of people in all other religions. Nor are there Christians out flying planes into skyscrapers in Riyad.

As for the "outlawing," it should start with leaders of the free world speaking out against Islam. Look what we did in South Africa. Children today would have a hard time believing that only 20 or so years ago, there was segregation in South Africa, and that most of the world looked away.

Why are we looking away from the atrocities of Islam now? WHY? Why do we let religious dictators in Iran saw people´s hands and feet off, and oppress women so cruelly? I promise you that 20 years from now people will look back and say, "How could we have sat by and let it happen?" I propose that we skip that step and go right to trying to end literal Islam. I would favor going to war against any regime that amputates its peoples´ limbs, for instance. There is no place in our world for such human-on-human horrors. I would volunteer myself to fight in such a war.

DavidJames

12th May 2003, 08:37 AM

"I would volunteer myself to fight in such a war."

Why haven't you joined the miltary already. I expect we will be "liberating" other countries in the next few years. The Army needs a few good men.

Genghis Pwn

12th May 2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by DavidJames
"I would volunteer myself to fight in such a war."

Why haven't you joined the miltary already. I expect we will be "liberating" other countries in the next few years. The Army needs a few good men.

Thanks. I fought in the first gulf war, and I just came back from Afghanistan. ;)

RandFan

12th May 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Lol, do you know that the leaders of ISLAM call for Jihad on us every day, as does the Koran. Should we arrest them all? Now you´re with ME! The meter, the style, the "lol", hmmmm.... Hey Genghis, are you fan of Star Wars?

a_unique_person

12th May 2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
That´s interesting about the bible. Yeah, I dont read it much. :D

Then again, like I said, I have never in my lifetime even heard of Christian preachers calling for the death of people in all other religions. Nor are there Christians out flying planes into skyscrapers in Riyad.

As for the "outlawing," it should start with leaders of the free world speaking out against Islam. Look what we did in South Africa. Children today would have a hard time believing that only 20 or so years ago, there was segregation in South Africa, and that most of the world looked away.

Why are we looking away from the atrocities of Islam now? WHY? Why do we let religious dictators in Iran saw people´s hands and feet off, and oppress women so cruelly? I promise you that 20 years from now people will look back and say, "How could we have sat by and let it happen?" I propose that we skip that step and go right to trying to end literal Islam. I would favor going to war against any regime that amputates its peoples´ limbs, for instance. There is no place in our world for such human-on-human horrors. I would volunteer myself to fight in such a war.

I agree the world should be a better place, there is much that is wrong with it. However, much is done in the name of xianity, while it doesn't generate the headlines that 9/11 did, kills just as many people.

DrBenway

12th May 2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by a_unique_person
...much is done in the name of xianity, while it doesn't generate the headlines that 9/11 did, kills just as many people.
We're arguing demographics. Although Christianity may have its "I'm killing you in the name of Jesus" folks, they enjoy little support from mainstream theological centers.

In contrast, the sharia is a mainstream set of Islamic practices, taught in all respected Islamic Universities. There are many political groups in the world today in favor of Islamic Law.

Bjorn

12th May 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by RandFan
The meter, the style, the "lol", hmmmm.... Hey Genghis, are you fan of Star Wars? And this:

Thanks. I fought in the first gulf war, and I just came back from Afghanistan. Jepp, it's him - Genghis Knight. :p

Bjorn

12th May 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by DrBenway

We're arguing demographics. Although Christianity may have its "I'm killing you in the name of Jesus" folks, they enjoy little support from mainstream theological centers.

In contrast, the sharia is a mainstream set of Islamic practices, taught in all respected Islamic Universities. There are many political groups in the world today in favor of Islamic Law. If this was true, how come amputations of an arm for theft is not much more common?

In most muslim countries it is not happening at all and you'd be put in jail if you tried to do it, in the others, it is so rare that it becomes front page news.

How many were stoned to death in the whole world last year?

10? 50? 100? Guess?

I have no sympathy for stoning, but it is simply not true that this is common in muslim countries. :(

The last thing we need right now is a broad generalization where muslim per definition are bad people.

Those who commit crimes are.

Jim Lennox

12th May 2003, 06:07 PM

If (as Pwn claims) every muslim is committed to destroying all unbelievers, how come he has been able to spend so much time hanging around in mosques?

Genghis Pwn

13th May 2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Jim Lennox
If (as Pwn claims) every muslim is committed to destroying all unbelievers, how come he has been able to spend so much time hanging around in mosques?

Because...

A) I claimed to be Muslim or considering conversion.

B) Muslims, like most religious people, are a bunch of hypocrites. My closest Afghan friends spent half our conversations asking me to get them whiskey, loose western women, and downloaded pictures of George Bush´s twin daughters. :eek:

By the way, for all those downplaying Islamic law like it´s no big deal, do a video search on Kazaa for "Iran amputation".... the most sickening thing you will ever see.

Jim Lennox

13th May 2003, 06:57 PM

A) I claimed to be Muslim or considering conversion.

That's interesting. Don't you just have to say you're a muslim to become one?

Does that mean you are a muslim and therefore a bloodthirsty church grenader?

a_unique_person

13th May 2003, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Because...

A) I claimed to be Muslim or considering conversion.

B) Muslims, like most religious people, are a bunch of hypocrites. My closest Afghan friends spent half our conversations asking me to get them whiskey, loose western women, and downloaded pictures of George Bush´s twin daughters. :eek:

By the way, for all those downplaying Islamic law like it´s no big deal, do a video search on Kazaa for "Iran amputation".... the most sickening thing you will ever see.

And I believe that this is the sort of thing that a rising protest movement in Iran wants to stop.