Muslims in Sweden

[DanishDynamite]

According to the Swedish TV-station SVT, the political parties currently in the Parliament recieved a letter from the Muslim organization represented by
Mahmoud Aldebe that Muslims should get Friday and other muslim holidays off. They also demand that Muslims, approved by themselves, get to educate islamic children in the schools and that divorces in muslamic families must be approved by an Imam.

In addition, any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-free and there should be special "women-only" days at the local swimming-pools.

Link (in Danish) here (http://www.jp.dk/udland/artikel:aid=3700728/)

[CplFerro]

Dear DanishDynamite,

How about inlaying a giant mosaic of Mohammed onto each road intersection?

Or perhaps I'm being too cryptic. My question is, what does it take to make these people go away? Is there some sort of spray, or an audio signal perhaps?

Cpl Ferro

P.S. And in other news...

Turbans and Time-Bombs
http://www.heretical.com/ofarrell/timebomb.html

[DanishDynamite]

Dear DanishDynamite,

How about inlaying a giant mosaic of Mohammed onto each road intersection?

Or perhaps I'm being too cryptic. My question is, what does it take to make these people go away? Is there some sort of spray, or an audio signal perhaps?

Cpl Ferro

P.S. And in other news...

Turbans and Time-Bombs
http://www.heretical.com/ofarrell/timebomb.html
I have an idea about how to make these people go away, but it isn't politically correct.

[Nyarlathotep]

According to the Swedish TV-station SVT, the political parties currently in the Parliament recieved a letter from the Muslim organization represented by
Mahmoud Aldebe that Muslims should get Friday and other muslim holidays off. They also demand that Muslims, approved by themselves, get to educate islamic children in the schools and that divorces in muslamic families must be approved by an Imam.

In addition, any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-free and there should be special "women-only" days at the local swimming-pools.

Link (in Danish) here (http://www.jp.dk/udland/artikel:aid=3700728/)


Do Churches, synagogues, ashrams, etc. get interest free loans to be built? If they do then I suppose it would only be fair to do the same for mosques (though, IMO, none of them should get such loans), if not, then mosques shouldn't get them either

[Giz]

Do Churches, synagogues, ashrams, etc. get interest free loans to be built? If they do then I suppose it would only be fair to do the same for mosques (though, IMO, none of them should get such loans), if not, then mosques shouldn't get them either

The simplest way doesn't neccesarily appeal to politicians though. After complaints were made about islamophobia in the UK it was suggested that the blasphemy laws (covering xianity only, and not AFAIK enforced) should be equalised for all faiths. This could be done in two ways:

1) Repeal the blasphemy laws.

2) Extend them to cover criticizing any faith.

No prizes for guessing what the politicos went for...

[Art Vandelay]

According to the Swedish TV-station SVT, the political parties currently in the Parliament recieved Really, what's so hard about i before e, except when it rhymes with "weigh" or after c, unless it's like science?
:)

They also demand that Muslims, approved by themselves, get to educate islamic children in the schools and that divorces in muslamic families must be approved by an Imam. So what exactly is the meaning of the word that you translate as "demand"? It can have several shades of meanings in English, from "I officially request this" to "I'll kill you if I don't get it".

In addition, any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-freeSo what does that mean? That there should be some source of interest-free loans, or that no one should be allowed charge interest? Well, I guess there's an easy way to implement the latter: don't give them any loans.

In light of the events of the last few years, I can only conclude that one of the following is the case:
1. Muslims are complete idiots.
2. Muslims are intentionally provoking anger in order to serve some sort of persecution complex.
3. There's a widespread campaign to misinform people about muslims.

[peptoabysmal]

They want to impose Islamic law on Denmark or wherever else they go. IIRC, the interest thing is part of their religious belief.

[Art Vandelay]

By that, do you just mean that they have a problem paying interest on loans, or do they also have a problem collecting interest? If the former, seems rather hypocritical. If the latter, why not ask for the interest free loans from other Muslims, rather than involving people that doen't share their beliefs?

Opposition to interest is such an integral part of the modern world, they might as well have a religious proscription against plastic.

[Skeptic]

According to the Swedish TV-station SVT, the political parties currently in the Parliament recieved a letter from the Muslim organization represented by
Mahmoud Aldebe that Muslims should get Friday and other muslim holidays off. They also demand that Muslims, approved by themselves, get to educate islamic children in the schools and that divorces in muslamic families must be approved by an Imam.

In addition, any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-free and there should be special "women-only" days at the local swimming-pools.

Link (in Danish) here (http://www.jp.dk/udland/artikel:aid=3700728/)

Oh, I'm sure that if you only do that, there will be ABSOLUTELY NO FURTHER DEMANDS for more religious perks on the taxpayer's dime.

Nor does the fact that they want divorce to be by the 7th-century, totally male-dominated Islamic law (it's really disgusting, the way courts in Sweden actually allow women to testify and everything) mean that they will have little respect for women's rights, or that they will EVER demand all Muslim women in Sweden wear a burkha or anything.

Now, for posting what you did, you are an Islamophobe, and you must go to the corner and write 100 times that

"Islam is the religion of peace"
"Islam is the religion of peace"
"Islam is..."

[Skeptic]

By that, do you just mean that they have a problem paying interest on loans, or do they also have a problem collecting interest?

It is forbidden for a Muslim to demand interest *from Muslims*, and it is (at least) dishonorable for a Muslim to submit to an infidel's demand for interest. But as with most "rights" in Islam, they only partially and questionably apply when Muslims are supposed to grant them to infidels. At least in practice, if not in theory, a Muslim charging interest from an infidel is a much lesser crime.

If the former, seems rather hypocritical.

It is not hypocritical; not when you think that, merely for being a Muslim, you are a superior being who has more rights than the indifels.

It is perfectly permissible to demand special treatment from non-believers (e.g., to demand that they pay you interest when you loan them money, while they may not get any interest when they lend you money) because, after all, they are only infidels. What gives them the idea they deserve to be treated as equal to Muslims?

In Islam, nonbelievers might be tolerated, as second class citizens, under certain conditions, but the idea that they deserve equal treatment is utterly foreign to the religion.

[Kerberos]

So what exactly is the meaning of the word that you translate as "demand"? It can have several shades of meanings in English, from "I officially request this" to "I'll kill you if I don't get it".
Pretty much the same in Danish, though I suspect that the paper would have reported it explicitly if there had been hints of threars.

[brodski]

.

Turbans and Time-Bombs
http://www.heretical.com/ofarrell/timebomb.html
does linking to a holocaust deniers website really help your point?

[Earthborn]

Muslims should get Friday and other muslim holidays off.Makes sense. I would welcome it greatly when people can be free from work for their personal religious holidays. And it would be great for business too: shops no longer have to close for Christian holidays, because Muslim employees can keep it open. I would greatly welcome that too, as I have often stood for closed supermarket doors, not realising it was Pentacost or some such silliness.

They also demand that Muslims, approved by themselves, get to educate islamic children in the schoolsIslamic schools? Can't think of any argument against them.

that divorces in muslamic families must be approved by an Imam.Legal marriage (and thus by extension legal divorce) is a completely seperate issue from church marriage, so I can't see any problem in this either. Just because people can divorce legally does not mean they can also divorce religiously; the Catholic church doesn't allow it. So I don't see why Muslims should.

any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-freeI agree completely. If you build a mosque, you choose an Islamic Bank. It only makes sense, and there are more than enough of them.

there should be special "women-only" days at the local swimming-pools.If there is demand for it, the free market will provide. In theory. In practice it is obvious that Muslim women are now not very likely to go to the swimming pool showing that there is demand, but there is no reason why Islamic organisation can't ask local swimming pools to organise women-only days. Personally I would consider it a worrying display of gender-segregation, but who am I to judge if Muslim women prefer to swim without men? It's not like swimming pools are unsegregated anyway.

It all sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don't see the point in petitioning parliament, except maybe for the free Muslim holidays. It's all stuff that Muslim organisations might organise on their own without the need for different legislation.

[Mycroft]

Do Churches, synagogues, ashrams, etc. get interest free loans to be built? If they do then I suppose it would only be fair to do the same for mosques (though, IMO, none of them should get such loans), if not, then mosques shouldn't get them either

It is not against the rules in Christianity or Judaism to pay interest on loans, but it is against the rules of Islam.

There are creative ways to structure financing so that an investor still gets a return on his investment and the Muslim isn't required to pay interest, so this particular demand isn't necessarily a demand for a special privelege.

[Mycroft]

does linking to a holocaust deniers website really help your point?

If you check out his posting history, it's an accurate reflection of his views. I'd urge caution if you ever find yourself agreeing with him to be very careful about what exactly you're agreeing with. :)

[Kerberos]

It is not against the rules in Christianity or Judaism to pay interest on loans, but it is against the rules of Islam.

There are creative ways to structure financing so that an investor still gets a return on his investment and the Muslim isn't required to pay interest, so this particular demand isn't necessarily a demand for a special privelege.
Do any of these creative solution really amount to anything other than not calling interest, "interest" and not officially meassuring it in percent?

[geni]

It is not against the rules in Christianity or Judaism to pay interest on loans, but it is against the rules of Islam.


Historicaly it has been against the rules of Christianity. It all depends on how you interprit the word brother.

[geni]

Do any of these creative solution really amount to anything other than not calling interest, "interest" and not officially meassuring it in percent?

Yes for example consider an islamic morgage. The difference is signifcant enough that in the UK it ends up paying double stamp duty.

[Mycroft]

Historicaly it has been against the rules of Christianity. It all depends on how you interprit the word brother.

That's a good point, which is why the interpretation and practice of a religion is crucial in it's overall evaluation.

[Art Vandelay]

Yes for example consider an islamic morgage. The difference is signifcant enough that in the UK it ends up paying double stamp duty.Can you explain?

Makes sense. I would welcome it greatly when people can be free from work for their personal religious holidays.Employers should decide for themselves when employees should get days off. They shouldn't base their decisions on pressure from a special interest group. If Muslims are allowed to take off from work whenever they want to, so should eveyone.

And it would be great for business too: shops no longer have to close for Christian holidays, because Muslim employees can keep it open. Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

Islamic schools? Can't think of any argument against them.My understanding was that they were asking for Islamic instruction in public school.

Legal marriage (and thus by extension legal divorce) is a completely seperate issue from church marriage, so I can't see any problem in this either.It appears that they are talking about legal divorce. If they were talking about religious marriage, why did they asking Parliament?

It is not against the rules in Christianity or Judaism to pay interest on loans, but it is against the rules of Islam. Actually, there are rules in Christianity against charging interest. That's why Jews got into the banking business.

[Earthborn]

Do any of these creative solution really amount to anything other than not calling interest, "interest" and not officially meassuring it in percent?Yes, and no. It is not against Islamic principles to use percentages or getting more money back from what you have lend out. Islamic banks do both regularly. What is against Islamic principles is to profit from someone else's economic hardship. Therefore an Islamic bank cannot demand the payment of interest from someone who needs to lend money because he's in financial difficulty.

If you lend money from an Islamic bank to start a business, then instead of having to pay a fixed percentage of interest you'll agree to pay a percentage of your profit as soon as you get any. That way it is ensured that when your business fails the bank is not still profiting from you. It also makes Islamic banks rather reluctant to give out loans, as they try to make sure the businesses they give loans to are going to be successful. Non-Islamic banks have much less of an incentive to make sure the start-ups they help finance are going to be profitable, because they can be reasonably sure of a profit for themselves either way.

[Mike B.]

Islamic schools? Can't think of any argument against them.



Really?

Do you think some of the Wahabi madrasses in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia might be instilling a bit of hate in the youth?

(Not that all Islamic schools would be like that, but surely that is ONE argument against them.)

[Mycroft]

Do any of these creative solution really amount to anything other than not calling interest, "interest" and not officially meassuring it in percent?

An Islamic mortgage, which I'm currently in the process of finding out if it's available on a wholesale level so I can broker them, works like this:

1) The bank buys the property while agreeing to sell it to the Muslim buyer at an agreed upon profit for the bank.

2) Part of the Muslim's monthly payment goes towards the purchase of the home, and by the terms of the purchase contract he owns the portion of the home he's purchased.

3) The rest of the monthly payment goes towards "rent" he pays to the bank for living in a home he does not yet own 100%.

4) As time goes on, the Muslim owns a greater share of his home, so less of his monthly payment goes towards "rent" and more towards the purchase price of the home.

So yes, this would mimic very closely a traditional mortgage where you replace "rent" for "interest" on your traditional mortgage statement. Important differences are that FDMC, FNMA, FHA, VA and other government back programs designed to make housing affordable have nothing to do with this, so that pretty much guarantees that the overall costs of this kind of financing will be higher. Another difference is you would exclude yourself from any kind of traditional secondary financing (which presumably you wouldn't want anyway, because that charges interest) and lock yourself into that same Islamic bank if you wanted an equity line of credit for anything.

[DanishDynamite]

Makes sense. I would welcome it greatly when people can be free from work for their personal religious holidays. And it would be great for business too: shops no longer have to close for Christian holidays, because Muslim employees can keep it open. I would greatly welcome that too, as I have often stood for closed supermarket doors, not realising it was Pentacost or some such silliness.
Makes no sense. Why recognize special holidays for certain parts of the population and not for others?
Islamic schools? Can't think of any argument against them.
Cohesiveness of society? How many Madrases do you have in Holland?
Legal marriage (and thus by extension legal divorce) is a completely seperate issue from church marriage, so I can't see any problem in this either. Just because people can divorce legally does not mean they can also divorce religiously; the Catholic church doesn't allow it. So I don't see why Muslims should.
They are talking about legal marriages.
I agree completely. If you build a mosque, you choose an Islamic Bank. It only makes sense, and there are more than enough of them.
If they can choose an existing bank, that's fine. But if this is the case, why make a demand for special privalidges?
If there is demand for it, the free market will provide. In theory. In practice it is obvious that Muslim women are now not very likely to go to the swimming pool showing that there is demand, but there is no reason why Islamic organisation can't ask local swimming pools to organise women-only days. Personally I would consider it a worrying display of gender-segregation, but who am I to judge if Muslim women prefer to swim without men? It's not like swimming pools are unsegregated anyway.
I agree. If there is a demand for it the free market will provide.
It all sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don't see the point in petitioning parliament, except maybe for the free Muslim holidays. It's all stuff that Muslim organisations might organise on their own without the need for different legislation.
Obviously, none of it is reasonable to demand from the government.

Can't blame them for trying, though.

[Mycroft]

Non-Islamic banks have much less of an incentive to make sure the start-ups they help finance are going to be profitable, because they can be reasonably sure of a profit for themselves either way.

I'd be curious to know where you got that particular analysis. Failed businesses tend to default on their loans. While the debt may technically exist, if there is nothing to collect it’s still a loss.

[geni]

Can you explain?

They pay rent rather than interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/02/business_islamic_mortgage_system/html/2.stm

[Mycroft]

Yes for example consider an islamic morgage. The difference is signifcant enough that in the UK it ends up paying double stamp duty.

I read about that. IIRC, it's because an Islamic mortgage requires the house be sold twice. Once to the bank, another time to the Muslim buyer.

[Earthborn]

Employers should decide for themselves when employees should get days off.Should they? I think it is preferable that there is some legislation ensuring how often people can get days off. Otherwise some employers might expect their employees to work 365 days a year. I also happen to think that it doesn't make much sense to legislate a lot of fixed days off for everyone, even for the people who don't celebrate that religious festival anyway, while not allowing them a day off for a religious festival they do celebrate.

They shouldn't base their decisions on pressure from a special interest group.I think they should listen to the interests of minority groups. People who want a day off for the end of Ramadan instead of Christmas might be happier employees if they get a day off for the end of Ramadan. If there are laws preventing such flexible off days, those laws should disappear.

If Muslims are allowed to take off from work whenever they want to, so should eveyone.Of course. If Christians are allowed a day off from work for their religious festivals, so should Muslims. Which of course does not means Muslims should also get days off for Christian holidays.

Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?No, they don't.

My understanding was that they were asking for Islamic instruction in public school.That's my impression as well. I would be against that. I'm not against lessons about different world religions, but I would be against Islamic instruction for Islamic children exclusively, as public schools should be inclusive. But if Muslim parents do want that, they can already get it at Islamic schools.

It appears that they are talking about legal divorce. If they were talking about religious marriage, why did they asking Parliament?They are talking about legal divorce and that's why they are asking parliament. It is just that they shouldn't. Imams are religious scholars and should not be bothered with legal issues.

[Earthborn]

Makes no sense. Why recognize special holidays for certain parts of the population and not for others?I guess my first sentence was a little too subtle for you. I argue in favour of recognising special holidays for all parts of the population. Within reason of course; the Don't-Work-At-Any-Day-In-The-Year sect may have to choose which one of its religious holidays are most important to them.

Cohesiveness of society? How many Madrases do you have in Holland?Madrases? Not to many I think. But there are quite a few Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Islamic schools. Hasn't particularly hurt cohesiveness of society too much thus far.

They are talking about legal marriages.Of course they are. It just makes their argument irrelevant.

If they can choose an existing bank, that's fine. But if this is the case, why make a demand for special privalidges?Beats me. Perhaps for some odd reason when they want to build a mosque they want to be able to borrow money from the First Western Bank of Decadence. I guess they just haven't thought this one through. What are they planning to say when they are confronted with the Just and Merciful one and have to explain why they needed to borrow money from the same bank that supports Boss Hogg's Pork Emporium and Drunk Under The Bridge Wineary?

I agree. If there is a demand for it the free market will provide.All they have to do is tell swimming pools that such demand exists.

Obviously, none of it is reasonable to demand from the government.That's what I said.

[Mycroft]

They pay rent rather than interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/02/business_islamic_mortgage_system/html/2.stm

Oddly enough, the BBC does their math wrong in their examples:

In the Muslim mortgage example, the home buyer puts a down payment of £17000, pays the stamp duty twice and makes 25 years worth of £600 payments, (which would be comparable to an interest rate of 7.25%) but the BBC totals it up to £210,000 when it should be £199,000.

£17000 + £2000 + (£600 X 300) = £199,000.

Their standard mortgage example has the customer making a down payment of £10,000, then the stamp duty once for £1,000, then makes 30 years worth of £650 payments (it never says it’s a 30 year mortgage, but it does say the payment is £650, which is the monthly payment of a £90,000 loan at 7% amortized for 30 years) for a total of £190,000, but it should add up to £245,000 instead.

£10000 + £1000 + (£650 X 360) = £245,000.

Even without the math error, this is very sloppy reporting. The difference between the two forms of financing has almost nothing to do with the double stamp tax but everything to do with the different terms. This “comparison” would only confuse a reader, not educate them.

[DanishDynamite]

I guess my first sentence was a little too subtle for you. I argue in favour of recognising special holidays for all parts of the population. Within reason of course; the Don't-Work-At-Any-Day-In-The-Year sect may have to choose which one of its religious holidays are most important to them.
I see. So when should a country invent new special holidays? How many percent of the population should vote for such an initiative to make it law? Or perhaps the opinion of the populace isn't important in this regard?
Madrases? Not to many I think. But there are quite a few Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Islamic schools. Hasn't particularly hurt cohesiveness of society too much thus far.
So you don't know. Try to find out.

Oh, and in regard to cohesiveness of society in Holland, don't make me laugh. (Let's not mention Theo van Gogh or the recent tightening of immigration laws, shall we?)
Of course they are. It just makes their argument irrelevant.
My point.
Beats me. Perhaps for some odd reason when they want to build a mosque they want to be able to borrow money from the First Western Bank of Decadence. I guess they just haven't thought this one through. What are they planning to say when they are confronted with the Just and Merciful one and have to explain why they needed to borrow money from the same bank that supports Boss Hogg's Pork Emporium and Drunk Under The Bridge Wineary?
So you agree that their demands of the government are ridiculous?
All they have to do is tell swimming pools that such demand exists.
All they have to do is to act like other people in society, yes.
That's what I said.
No it wasn't. That is what I said.

[Art Vandelay]

Should they? I think it is preferable that there is some legislation ensuring how often people can get days off. Otherwise some employers might expect their employees to work 365 days a year.As long as it's a competitive market, companies should be allowed to do that if they want. If no one wants to work there, then no one will work there.

If you lend money from an Islamic bank to start a business,You lend to, borrow from.

An Islamic mortgage, which I'm currently in the process of finding out if it's available on a wholesale level so I can broker them, works like this:There's no real difference between that and a limited liability mortgage. It's simply a matter of semantics.

I'd be curious to know where you got that particular analysis. Failed businesses tend to default on their loans. While the debt may technically exist, if there is nothing to collect it’s still a loss.Unless it's a limited liability loan, in which case the debt is gone as soon as the business fails.

[Mycroft]

There's no real difference between that and a limited liability mortgage. It's simply a matter of semantics.

Unless it's a limited liability loan, in which case the debt is gone as soon as the business fails.

I'm not familiar with the term "limited liability mortgage". Is that different from a standard mortgage? Who's liability is limited and how?

[Rob Lister]

I'm not familiar with the term "limited liability mortgage". Is that different from a standard mortgage? Who's liability is limited and how?

Rent to own. That clear it up?

ETA: speaking of which, two separate real estate agents have knocked on my door of late offering me insane amounts of money for my house. I'm told the housing bubble is over so they must be trying to trick me :) Really, I gave both offers a thought but considered that I have to live somewhere, and I like my neighborhood so...

[Mycroft]

Rent to own. That clear it up?

Ah, yes. I don't do those, of course, but I've paid off a few.

It would work almost exactly like that, only in the rent to own contracts I'm familiar with the buyer loses their equity if they change their mind about buying.

ETA: speaking of which, two separate real estate agents have knocked on my door of late offering me insane amounts of money for my house. I'm told the housing bubble is over so they must be trying to trick me :) Really, I gave both offers a thought but considered that I have to live somewhere, and I like my neighborhood so...

Are you sure? You may want to check out some neighborhoods within five or six miles of where you live. See if you can't afford a comparable home while pocketing a hundred grand or so. :)

[Rob Lister]

Are you sure? You may want to check out some neighborhoods within five or six miles of where you live. See if you can't afford a comparable home while pocketing a hundred grand or so. :)

Consider that I did. Luckily, my wife wasn't home to hear the offers. They were quite insane. And so too is she about money.

Almost in the 'to good to be true' category. Still, I like my neighborhood and figure the market is fairly constant in terms of stable or rising value. I could pocket the extra cash but then to have to live in a not-so-nice neighborhood? It's a tough decision, but I've made it. I'm staying.

Now, if somebody comes up with a REALLY insane offer, I'll reconsider.

I'm nothing if not open minded.

[Darat]

...snip...
(it never says it’s a 30 year mortgage, but it does say the payment is £650, which is the monthly payment of a £90,000 loan at 7% amortized for 30 years)

...snip...

I would assume it is referring to the "standard" 25 year mortgage - no idea if that means the maths is right or wrong.

[Rob Lister]

That's about the hundredth time I've seen the word "maths". Is that a proper usage, a typo, or a slang? Just curious.

[Darat]

I think when you would say "math" we say "maths" - no idea why.

[Rob Lister]

Well, it's hard to correct the English use of English
:)

Even though I specialize in it.

[aerocontrols]

I think when you would say "math" we say "maths" - no idea why.

It seems to me that we've just shortened the word 'mathematics' differently.

[Rob Lister]

Ah...good point. That would make 'maths' more logical.

I'll go along with it but recommend we use 'mathz' instead

:)

[Art Vandelay]

Well, it's hard to correct the English use of EnglishWell, I do think that we are, for instance, justified in pointing out that we live in America, not Americur.

I'm not familiar with the term "limited liability mortgage". Is that different from a standard mortgage? [Whose] liability is limited and how?I don't know what's standard in the banking industry, but if your agreement is such that, in the event of a default, the bank can only take your house, and no other assets, that would be an example of a limited liability loan. And it would be your liability that is limited, since only your equity is at risk.

You might notice that a lot of British companies have the word "limited" after their names. As I understand it, that means, among other things, that all loans to them are limited liability. For instance, if Darat starts a company called "Mods Ltd." and I make a loan to the company, and the company defaults, I can demand that Darat hand ownership over to me, but I can't go after any other assets that Darat has.

[Mycroft]

I would assume it is referring to the "standard" 25 year mortgage - no idea if that means the maths is right or wrong.

Oops, I just found a mistake in my own math.

I assumed a 30 year loan because the math comes to a payment of £598.77, which is really close to the £600 stated in the article, but the traditional mortgage was supposed to have a payment of £650 while the Islamic mortgage was supposed to have a payment of £600.

So doing the math again, a 25 year loan of £90,000 at 7% comes to a monthly payment P&I of £636.10, which isn't so close to the stated payment of £650, but isn't too far off either.

So if we assume a 25 year loan and use the BBC's calculated monthly payment, we have:

£10000 + £1000 + (£650 X 300) = £206,000

which is still quite a bit off from their calculation of £190,000. If we use my calculated monthly payment we have:

£10000 + £1000 + (£636.10 X 300) = £201,830

which is closer to the BBC fugure, but still off by almost £12,000.

Do you have any idea what a pain this is on a keybord that doesn't have a "£" key?

[Rob Lister]

Do you have any idea what a pain this is on a keybord that doesn't have a "£" key?

don't worry. no respectably keyboard does.

[Earthborn]

I see. So when should a country invent new special holidays?I'm not talking about inventing new holidays. I'm talking about is allowing employees to negotiate with employers which days of the year they want to be free from work in advance. So if an employee wants to have days off on all Islamic holidays, they can simply tell their employer, employer need only to look at a chart to see which days those are and give the employee those days off. Might work the same way if the employee is an Oddlydayoffian, the employer would only need a different chart.

How many percent of the population should vote for such an initiative to make it law?I'd say the normal majority of parliament.

So you don't know. Try to find out.Why? It's not relevant.

Oh, and in regard to cohesiveness of society in Holland, don't make me laugh. (Let's not mention Theo van Gogh or the recent tightening of immigration laws, shall we?)If you have any evidence that Theo van Gogh was killed because the Netherlands allows schools with religious affiliation, let's hear it. Otherwise, it is irrelevant.

So you agree that their demands of the government are ridiculous?Wasn't that obvious all along?

No it wasn't. That is what I said.The fact that you said it in no way contradicts the fact that I said it.

[Art Vandelay]

Do you have any idea what a pain this is on a keybord that doesn't have a "£" key?
You do realize that once it's in your clipboard, you just have to press ctrl-v every time you need it, right? You can also tell MS Word to replace all instances of, say, [L], with £.

[Mycroft]

You do realize that once it's in your clipboard, you just have to press ctrl-v every time you need it, right? You can also tell MS Word to replace all instances of, say, [L], with £.

What I actually did was just used dollar signs and then cut and pasted them out later. :)

[BPSCG]

In addition, any loans to build Muslem mosques should be interest-free and there should be special "women-only" days at the local swimming-pools.

Link (in Danish) here (http://www.jp.dk/udland/artikel:aid=3700728/)They want separate-but-equal accomodations?

Well, okay. But you know, it didn't work so well in the U.S. Can you say, "Jim Crow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws)?"

[DanishDynamite]

I'm not talking about inventing new holidays. I'm talking about is allowing employees to negotiate with employers which days of the year they want to be free from work in advance. So if an employee wants to have days off on all Islamic holidays, they can simply tell their employer, employer need only to look at a chart to see which days those are and give the employee those days off. Might work the same way if the employee is an Oddlydayoffian, the employer would only need a different chart.
Not following you. These were demands to the government. Not to employers.
I'd say the normal majority of parliament.Good choice.
Why? It's not relevant.Why not? What is the difference between Muslim schools and Madrasses?
If you have any evidence that Theo van Gogh was killed because the Netherlands allows schools with religious affiliation, let's hear it. Otherwise, it is irrelevant.
Are you saying that how schools shape young people's minds has no influence on how they act in later life?If you have any evidence that this is true, let's hear it.
Wasn't that obvious all along?
Of course. So why are fighting it?
The fact that you said it in no way contradicts the fact that I said it.No, but in my case it was the point I was trying to make. In your case...I have no idea.