Of all the " god's " that people believe in, who's the oldest?

[Pauliesonne]

Is it Zeus?

[Nettles]

No, it's the one from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

[slingblade]

The oldest god might be a goddess, might it not?

[Pauliesonne]

The oldest god might be a goddess, might it not?

Could be for all I know.

[CFLarsen]

It's Ed.

[UrsulaV]

It's hard to say, since our paleolithic records don't really come with tags saying what exactly they're supposed to represent.

However, if one accepts that the "Venus" figures common throughout paleolithic art represent some type of fertility goddess, then she's definitely in the running. There's also things like the "Shaman" cave painting, and an ancient lion-headed human statue from the paleolithic--the location escapes me at the moment--that are almost certainly representative of something supernatural.

We don't know their names, or whether they were considered "gods" in the same sense that we'd mean, but they're definitely old.

[geni]

The Anunaki were worshiped in summer. Before that there is a lack of writen records.

[Nettles]

However, if one accepts that the "Venus" figures common throughout paleolithic art represent some type of fertility goddess, then she's definitely in the running.

If, however, one accepts that they're no more than the palaeolithic equivalent of Barbie dolls, then perhaps not.

[UrsulaV]

If, however, one accepts that they're no more than the palaeolithic equivalent of Barbie dolls, then perhaps not.

I have friends who could make a very good case for Barbie being an object of cult worship... *grin*

[Tricky]

If Iacchus were still here, he would say "the sun", and it's kind of a pity that he isn't because this would be one of the rare instances where I kind of agree with him. Before man had the imagination to conjure up human-like gods, I would suspect they treated natural phenomena as gods, and the sun is the biggie. And indeed, sun worship seems common across many cultures. Every pantheon includes one.

[Aristides]

If you want to go with humans though, some type of feminine fertility goddess, probably. They keep digging up figurines that look like pregnant women, it seems. So says a long-past myth class.

[Nettles]

If you want to go with humans though, some type of feminine fertility goddess, probably. They keep digging up figurines that look like pregnant women, it seems. So says a long-past myth class.

Those who wish to support the idea of a pan-European mother goddess cult refer to those as cultic figurines. There isn't any evidence of that, however; and I consider it a tendentious suggestion.

[David Swidler]

The Anunaki were worshiped in summer. Before that there is a lack of writen records.

It took me a few times through to understand you.

"Huh? I distinctly recall reading quite a bit before the summer. That's quite an assertion he's making th - oh, [slaps forehead] he meant Sumer!..."

There's something to be said for accuracy in spelling :)

[arthwollipot]

I thought at first which of the gods that are still worshipped are the oldest. Now that would be an interesting question.

But then you wouldn't get all of those sexy fertility figures...

[geni]

I thought at first which of the gods that are still worshipped are the oldest. Now that would be an interesting question.


There are various pagan groups that would claim it is the green man.

[Ryokan]

No, it's the one from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

Surely you mean Star Trek V : The Final Frontier?

[UrsulaV]

There are various pagan groups that would claim it is the green man.

I doubt they'd be right, though. There's a strong association with vegetation, particularly death/rebirth with the harvest with the Green Man that argues for an origin tied in to agriculture. Even for the ones where he's a wild vegetation god, you'd still almost require a sense of "wilderness" and "non-wilderness" which is a distinction I'm guessing you're much more likely to make as an agrarian society than as nomadic hunter-gatherers.

In most hunter-gatherer societies that I've read about, the important spirits are mostly animals--a plant may muscle in now and again, but rarely. It's not that plants aren't important, but they aren't personified and they don't require appeasment, the way animal spirits would. It's once you're agrarian that you're prayin' the corn won't die.

There's also, to my knowledge, no representations in early art that we could nail down usefully as "Hey, this is the green man!" the way we can say "okay, this is a lion-headed human, this is a venus figure, this is a reindeer/owl/composite shaman dude." Which doesn't mean they didn't exist, but does point up a distinct lack of evidence.

[c4ts]

The oldest god is clearly Xenu, who exceeds the age of the universe by a few quadrillion years.

[Bikewer]

As UrsulaV points out,the most primitive peoples studied all have some sort of animistic beliefs, with the "spirits" frequently corresponding to natural processes.

This makes sense to me, as our primitive ancestors would have been mystified by all those unexplained things they saw in nature, and would have assigned spirits to account for them. I'd guess that anthromorphized "god" spirits would have come later.

[Belz...]

Is it Zeus?

All hail BAAL!

[Dr Adequate]

But then you wouldn't get all of those sexy fertility figures... Worshipping women with enormous breasts isn't a religion ...

... it's more a way of life.

[10001]

the ldest god humans believed in was and is...

Self.

eventually this did not work well since, too many humans began to take on the idea. So other objects and ideas were thought up to gain power and control over other human gods...

Japan has a national day of worshipping penis...

you will be able to get a more acurate answer if you ask a 'Borg'. I m sure they have assimilated a few of them.

[strathmeyer]

Is it Zeus?

No, it's me.

[Alphaba]

In most hunter-gatherer societies that I've read about, the important spirits are mostly animals--a plant may muscle in now and again, but rarely. It's not that plants aren't important, but they aren't personified and they don't require appeasment, the way animal spirits would.
While this is true of most Siberian, Arctic and Far-East shamanic societies and subcultures, it can't be generalized to South-American ones where some plants (and fungi), generally psychotropic, are personified and often do require conciliatory ritual actions, just like hunted animals do. Actually, in many Amazonian small-scale shamanic societies, such plants, like the giant vine Banisteriopsis caapi for instance, do require more symbolic/ritual precautions -when harvested (e.g. putting a tobacco offer at the bottom of the tree where it's cut) and/or used (e.g. special propitiatory chants addressed to the spirit/"mother" of the vine)- than the usual game when hunted and/or prepared (i.e. culinary preparation).

[Aardvark]

One of the oldest monotheistic religions is Zoroastrianism. Please excuse my spelling.

These people have a god called Uhuru Mazda who I believe is manifested in light. You will know that Mazda was a brand of light bulb and still is a brand of Japanese car.

Originally from Persia many migrated to India, especially to Bombay ( Mumbai) where they are called Parsee.

Famous Parsee include Freddie Mercury ( Farooq Bulsara) of Queen and Zubin Mehta of the New York Philarmonic.

Richard Straus wrote a piece of music titled ' Also sprach Zarathustra' which is in homage to the Profit of the same religion.

They do not seek converts and you need both parents to be in the religion.

Fire, water, and earth are all sacred. In Bombay, human remains are confined to ' Towers of Silence'.

This One God religion pre dates Judaism by a long way

[UrsulaV]

While this is true of most Siberian, Arctic and Far-East shamanic societies and subcultures, it can't be generalized to South-American ones where some plants (and fungi), generally psychotropic, are personified and often do require conciliatory ritual actions, just like hunted animals do. .

Sure, I'll grant you that the occasional psychoactive is present and needs appeasment, buuuuut...do plants outnumber animal spirits even in those pantheons? My understanding is that you get the rare Weird Plant, but that it's rare you have an entire pantheon devoted primarily to vegetation.

[geni]

One of the oldest monotheistic religions is Zoroastrianism. Please excuse my spelling.

Doubtful. The general figure for it's first apearence is 1700 BC.


These people have a god called Uhuru Mazda who I believe is manifested in light. You will know that Mazda was a brand of light bulb and still is a brand of Japanese car.

Ahura Mazda


Originally from Persia many migrated to India, especially to Bombay ( Mumbai) where they are called Parsee.

Most appear to still be in iran though.


Famous Parsee include Freddie Mercury ( Farooq Bulsara) of Queen and Zubin Mehta of the New York Philarmonic.

Richard Straus wrote a piece of music titled ' Also sprach Zarathustra' which is in homage to the Profit of the same religion.

No it comes from the title of a book by Friedrich Nietzsche


They do not seek converts and you need both parents to be in the religion.


That is only true for the Parsi branch


This One God religion pre dates Judaism by a long way

Doubful. The like dates of the Abraham and Zoroaster figures (in this case used as convient lables for the tiggers points of the relgions I make no claim that either existed) are pretty close. There are of course massive margins of errors but if we take the most likely dates they practicaly overlap (there is maybe a century between them.

[UrsulaV]

Since the Sumerians are arguably the oldest religion that we have any solid records of, with their religion probably established between 6000-5000BC, we could probably say that the oldest god that we know of, that we're pretty sure was a god-god and not a representation of an animistic force, was one of the Sumerian pantheon.

In the standard Sumerian creation myth, the first goddess is Nammu, a sort of primordial soup divinity. That doesn't mean she was actually the oldest deity in the pantheon, of course, some of the others may have been older and shoe-horned into the creation myth at a later date, but in the absence of other recorded history, if you take their word for it, I'd say Nammu's got a pretty good case for being the oldest goddess that we have records of.

[Dancing David]

Those who wish to support the idea of a pan-European mother goddess cult refer to those as cultic figurines. There isn't any evidence of that, however; and I consider it a tendentious suggestion.


Mother worship. Or the worship of fertility does not require a pan european cult, such notionsa re the foolish imposition of modern values on ancient cultures, so you main point is very well made.

However the worship of disparate or personal figures seems likely, were the female figures made to induce or celebrate pregnancy, impossible to say. did they represent a more abstracted form of worship, even harder to say and more unlikely. are they totemic or sympathetic very likely.

Even when it comes to what we usualy think of as dieties we need only look at the fact that the victorians created this universal diety thing out of whole cloth wherever they went.

The monotheistic Ra is higghly over emphasized in the victorian mind set. most likely a different form of ra, heru, ast, toth, ptah, anpu were worshipped in each municipality and region.

we only need to look to what we do know of the babylonian/phoenecians to see that the different forms of ba'al vary widely and are very local.

So was some form of the procreator forces adored or invoked by ancient people, most likely.

Which one is the oldest?

the elements, the sun, the moon, the earth, the living things

[Dancing David]

Since the Sumerians are arguably the oldest religion that we have any solid records of, with their religion probably established between 6000-5000BC, we could probably say that the oldest god that we know of, that we're pretty sure was a god-god and not a representation of an animistic force, was one of the Sumerian pantheon.

In the standard Sumerian creation myth, the first goddess is Nammu, a sort of primordial soup divinity. That doesn't mean she was actually the oldest deity in the pantheon, of course, some of the others may have been older and shoe-horned into the creation myth at a later date, but in the absence of other recorded history, if you take their word for it, I'd say Nammu's got a pretty good case for being the oldest goddess that we have records of.


Uh, that is the problem with written records, non literate people have dieties as well, so dieties probably are as old as human culture. Whatever the heck that is, agriculture is much older in north africa than the middle east, although much of the transition from horticulture to agriculture occured in the middle east and north africa.

It would be hard to find an older written diety, although I thought Innana comes close to Nammu, but i haven't looked in a while.

[H3LL]

It must be DEATH.

Terry P said so...So it must be right....Or at least funny.

"Many an ancient lord's last words have been, "You can't kill me because I've got magic aaargh."


.

[rats]

I hear a diet of meat has become popular of late, and is probably fairly similar to ancient dieties...

Sorry, couldn't let that one go. It's deities!

[Meffy]

George Burns. Next question?

[CapelDodger]

Greek gods prepare for comeback

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html

It has taken almost 2,000 years, but those who worship the 12 gods of ancient Greece have finally triumphed. An Athens court has ordered that the adulation of Zeus, Hera, Hermes, Athena and co is to be unbanned, paving the way for a comeback of pagans on Mount Olympus.
The followers, who say they "defend the genuine traditions, religion and ethos" of the ancients by adhering to a pre-Christian polytheistic culture, are poised to take their battle to the temples of Greece.

You can't keep a good pantheon down.

As gods that people today actually (claim to) believe in, these must be good candidates as the longest-established.

[geni]

Greek gods prepare for comeback

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html


You can't keep a good pantheon down.

As gods that people today actually (claim to) believe in, these must be good candidates as the longest-established.

I'd give the veldic lot an edge. The Greeks are not really that old.

[Jorghnassen]

It's a mouse called Flush (the Creator), who moonwalks.

[Nyarlathotep]

Me.

See my title. Need I say more?

[CapelDodger]

I'd give the veldic lot an edge. The Greeks are not really that old.
At least 3000 years, which makes them contenders. The Vedic pantheon are also contenders, quite possibly favourites. Certainly a damn' sight more popular. Yahweh's in the running as sole survivor of a pantheon. There might be a winner lurking in Africa or South America whose continuity we haven't registered.

[geni]

At least 3000 years, which makes them contenders. The Vedic pantheon are also contenders, quite possibly favourites. Certainly a damn' sight more popular. Yahweh's in the running as sole survivor of a pantheon.

Posible but we only really have guess as to how far judaism goes back


There might be a winner lurking in Africa or South America whose continuity we haven't registered.

No writen records though. I suspect the spanish wiped out anything major in south america and africa hasn't had much in the way of continious civilisation. In any case cristianity and islam would have ripped through most of the local relgions

[UrsulaV]

Uh, that is the problem with written records, non literate people have dieties as well, so dieties probably are as old as human culture.

It would be hard to find an older written diety, although I thought Innana comes close to Nammu, but i haven't looked in a while.

It's certainly possible, and even likely, which is why I prefaced Nammu with "that we have records of."

Innana is in the same pantheon as Nammu, but since Nammu is the creation goddess, as I said, if you take the Sumerians' word for it, Nammu would be the oldest.

We just don't have the surviving information to know who the oldest gods actually were, but the Sumerians are definitely in the running for the oldest we have records of.

[CapelDodger]

Posible but we only really have guess as to how far judaism goes back
Yahweh goes back further than judaism, into the mists. The same goes for the Greek pantheon and the Vedics. (I'm leaving out the Sumerian gods because, as far as I know, nobody believes in them anymore, but I could be wrong. Ditto the Egyptian gods.)

No writen records though. I suspect the spanish wiped out anything major in south america and africa hasn't had much in the way of continious civilisation. In any case cristianity and islam would have ripped through most of the local relgions
African religion was carried west by slaves, and is still present in, for instance, voodoo. African culture has been continuous, even if not formally "civilised", and gods get passed on through culture. Some South American gods seem to have morphed into saints (the Catholic pantheon). But this isn't a subject I know much about.

[Elind]

The sun?

[pchams]

If I had to make a guess, (and I suppose we do since man probably created religions in prehistory) I would go with either:
1. The earth mother (fertility and nature), or
2. The sun
The reason for this I think would be that prehistoric societies would be focussing on eating and procreating.

[clarsct]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the moon, or the stars.

Death was probably a biggie, as well.

We pray to appease fears. A starlit and full moon night holds less terrors for us, we see more....

[Elind]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the moon, or the stars.



What is the sun?

[clarsct]

To an ancient Homo Sapien without our knowledge of science?

A large, burning thing in the sky, held up by magic and/or divine intercession. A star is a pinprick of light, a gift of light in the darkness, the gift of sight in a time full of terrors.


What? Did you think they had telescopes in 4000 BC?

[Elind]

Picky picky. I could have made a longer sentence, but then you wouldn't have had an opening to post again. :)

[Odin]

Out of interest, how far back does Odin go?

[Elind]

Out of interest, how far back does Odin go?
How many names do Christians have for God? What's in a name?

I don't know the exact answer to the question, but suspect it is only as long as the rune stones are at most. What, 1-2 thousand years?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Out of interest, how far back does Odin go?Hard to tell because you get into pre-history. Odin as a the chief of Norse gods probably doesn't pre-date 300 AD. So he's pretty much a newbie, as gods go. Zeus, in the same type of way, probably isn't much older. Anyway, the Romas stole their gods from the greeks and the greeks stole from the egyptians. So the egyptian gods are probably much older. Of course all of these gods had much older roots and evolved into new incarnations, so it's a little tricky to say when a god 'started'.

The God of the Bible, later described as YHWH, is probably the oldest one still around. Of course that is just a matter of popularity that kept the Bible around.

[UrsulaV]

The God of the Bible, later described as YHWH, is probably the oldest one still around. Of course that is just a matter of popularity that kept the Bible around.

Nah, I'd say Indra and Varuna of the pre-Vedas give him a stiff run for his money, since they're still worshipped today as well (although they aren't the top dogs of modern Hinduism.) The Rigveda is considered by some to be the only example of Bronze Age literature with a pretty much unbroken tradition of worship, and it's dated to somewhere in the 2nd millenium BC, placing it more or less in the same timeline as the founding of Judaism.

So YHWH'll have to share his spot with those guys. And Varuna has nagas attending him, so he's obviously the cool one.

[Beerina]

Clearly Yahweh cannot be the oldest. He created this world 6000-10,000 years ago, and we know it's way, way older than that.

And if he did create this universe, well, they're not theorizing the big bang may have been just one of many such cycles, and the universe may be a trillion years old. Perhaps much older than that.

[Elind]

Clearly Yahweh cannot be the oldest. He created this world 6000-10,000 years ago, and we know it's way, way older than that.

So who is older then?:boggled:

Personally I go for the one symbolized on a cave wall in France. Unfotunately "he/it" has no name, but certainly looks important. I hear there's a few in Aussie land too. They call it Dundee, I think.

[Dancing David]

Out of interest, how far back does Odin go?

hard to say , he comes from a trio of Villi, Ve and Od, and seems to have been a rather minor deity at that time. But when the christian destroyed everything, they seemed to really like Odin, so he is the central figure in the Snorri Snorelson sagas we have have, I think there was a lot of regional variation as well, in many places Typr or the vanir were more prominent than Od.

Freya was his co-equal because she also gets the other half of the dead in battle, but being female the christians castigated her.

Odin is one of the Aesir, so he is fairly old.

[JollyRoger]

I have heard their is one Pagan Religion the Predates rerecorded history. Which is kinda odd cuz the only way this could happen is if the believes where past on through story telling

shrugs shoulders