Psychics and Missing People

[CFLarsen]

Alex Tanous, a noted psychic and parapsychologist from Maine (now deceased) helped locate my next door neighbor's daughter and boyfriend many, many years ago. They were teenagers at the time and they had eloped but hadn't been in contact with their families. My neighbors consulted Alex Tanous and he told them where they were. As it turned out, he had been correct and they were both fine.

www.alextanous.org

He was also mentioned in another thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=27798

Unverifiable anecdote.

I also know someone who is gifted in this regard but didn't really like to use his abilities except in special cases. Some people find psychic abilities burdensome and they're not particularly comfortable with such gifts. He helped the police locate two young children who were lost in the woods in northern Maine.

Please identify this "gifted" person.

Please provide information about this case so we can verify just what this "gifted" person did.

[Kelly]

I also know someone who is gifted in this regard but didn't really like to use his abilities except in special cases. Some people find psychic abilities burdensome and they're not particularly comfortable with such gifts. He helped the police locate two young children who were lost in the woods in northern Maine.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I could "help" the police find a missing person by participating in a search or related activities.

You will need to further define what actions were involved in the help given and what case information was made available beforehand to your friend.

[JPK]

Good afternoon Hardenbergh.

Your post seems to have missed the point of this very productive thread. If you have evidence to back up your claims, please start a new thread about it. Your post is directly the opposite of what the thread is about.
JPK

[Kelly]

Good afternoon Hardenbergh.

Your post seems to have missed the point of this very productive thread. If you have evidence to back up your claims, please start a new thread about it. Your post is directly the opposite of what the thread is about.
JPK

JPK is right. Perhaps sometimes I am too nice! This thread has been derailed on more than one occasion. Thanks, JPK.

BTW, since I have your (readers) attention, I'd still really love to find someone who would write a simulation dialog between a psychic and a missing person's family member to show the methods they use to reel the gullible and desperate person into believing in them.

[JPK]

Good afternoon KellyJ.

This has been one of the most productive threads I have ever read on this or any forum and I can't thank you enough for that. If he has evidence of a psychic helping someone great. Post it somewhere else.
JPK

[Mr. Stick]

This has been one of the most productive threads I have ever read on this or any forum and I can't thank you enough for that. JPK

I couldn't agree more! It has been very encouraging to see how people quickly volunteered to help. Kelly, I wish you all the best both on a personal level and with all your ongoing projects.

[Kelly]

Thank you, JPK and Mr. Stick.

Dr. Michael Shermer just sent me an email and said I can quote the entire last chapter of his book "How We Believe". It's perfect for the occasion!

[logical muse]

Kelly, please accept my belated welcome to this forum, and my sincere condolences for your loss.

Sorry to come in so late, but if there is any assistance I can offer, it would be my pleasure and honour. I can help with the new web site, if needed. Web design, development, hosting, anything. Fowl and Larsen, if you guys need anything, just ask.

Has a domain name been chosen yet? I notice that what appears to be the current choice, psychicpredators.com, has not been registered yet. I can buy the name right now if you want.

[Kelly]

Kelly, please accept my belated welcome to this forum, and my sincere condolences for your loss.

Sorry to come in so late, but if there is any assistance I can offer, it would be my pleasure and honour. I can help with the new web site, if needed. Web design, development, hosting, anything. Fowl and Larsen, if you guys need anything, just ask.

Has a domain name been chosen yet? I notice that what appears to be the current choice, psychicpredators.com, has not been registered yet. I can buy the name right now if you want.

Thank you for your kindness. We're working behind the scenes to get this going. Claus did the developement end, and a fine job at that. FS is working on the domain and uploading.

I am to work on the content, but am dog paddling for the time being because of my work in a local search effort.

Please feel free to check with them to see if there is something else they need help with.

Regards,
Kelly

[logical muse]

Thank you for your kindness. We're working behind the scenes to get this going. Claus did the developement end, and a fine job at that. FS is working on the domain and uploading.

I am to work on the content, but am dog paddling for the time being because of my work in a local search effort.

Please feel free to check with them to see if there is something else they need help with.

Regards,
Kelly
OK, I've PMed them. If there's any way I can put my skills to use to help, I'll be glad to.

[Kelly]

OK, I've PMed them. If there's any way I can put my skills to use to help, I'll be glad to.

Do your talents lie on the Web related end of the spectrum, or do you also write?

[logical muse]

Do your talents lie on the Web related end of the spectrum, or do you also write?
Mostly web stuff. I can write, and in fact I've had a few TLA nominations, for whatever that's worth. Never won, mind you...

What did you have in mind?

[Kelly]

There's a few things I would like to have.

1) A dialog between a missing person family and a psychic that shows the methods the psychic uses to extract information and convince the family that they really do have paranormal abilities.

2) A summary of Sylvia Browne and her grand manipulations, including her apparent refusal to take the Challenge

3) An article about the tricks used by TV psychics: what really goes on behind the scenes

4) I don't know much about Remote Viewing, so I'd like an article about what that is and why it's another false claim

5) A brief history of related paranormal activity in the USA, starting with the Fox sisters

6) A summary of the various methods used by psychics

There may be others I am forgetting right now. I know there are several writers out there. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thank you.

Kelly

[CFLarsen]

There's a few things I would like to have.

There are quite a few on SkepticReport... ;)

[Kelly]

There are quite a few on SkepticReport... ;)

If I have a lack of guest writers doing these summaries, may I quote direct from these articles?

See you all later tonight....the search we are helping with concludes today.

[CFLarsen]

If I have a lack of guest writers doing these summaries, may I quote direct from these articles?

No.





You may put them on your site. :)

[Mariah]

Kelly, as part of my research, I've visited Florida's Cassadaga Spiritualist Camp which was the southern retreat for the Spiritualists who founded Lily Dale in New York State, where Spiritualism got its start in the U.S. and incubated. I do not have info directly related to psychic detectives, but I can report what I found out about psychics, firsthand. I attended their Sunday morning Lyceum, their church service, and the two hours of Sunday afternoon readings that experienced and student mediums hold for the public. I don't know if that would be specific enough, though.

[logical muse]

There's a few things I would like to have.

1) A dialog between a missing person family and a psychic that shows the methods the psychic uses to extract information and convince the family that they really do have paranormal abilities.

2) A summary of Sylvia Browne and her grand manipulations, including her apparent refusal to take the Challenge

3) An article about the tricks used by TV psychics: what really goes on behind the scenes

4) I don't know much about Remote Viewing, so I'd like an article about what that is and why it's another false claim

5) A brief history of related paranormal activity in the USA, starting with the Fox sisters

6) A summary of the various methods used by psychics

There may be others I am forgetting right now. I know there are several writers out there. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thank you.

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

There are others here much more knowledgeable about these things than I am; in fact I'm no expert at all. I really only know about these topics from what I read here and a few other places on the web. CFLarsen has some great articles. Also, the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://skepdic.com/) and Skeptic Wiki (http://www.skepticwiki.org/) have a lot of information.

It might be worth your while contecting the people at twopercentco to see if you can use their series on Allison DuBois (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/allison_dubois_week.html).

Perhaps I'm best helping with the web site: coding, testing, hosting, or anything else.

[Kelly]

Kelly, as part of my research, I've visited Florida's Cassadaga Spiritualist Camp which was the southern retreat for the Spiritualists who founded Lily Dale in New York State, where Spiritualism got its start in the U.S. and incubated. I do not have info directly related to psychic detectives, but I can report what I found out about psychics, firsthand. I attended their Sunday morning Lyceum, their church service, and the two hours of Sunday afternoon readings that experienced and student mediums hold for the public. I don't know if that would be specific enough, though.

I've never heard of these places, but I am sure your observances would be helpful. Not all articles will be specifically about missing person's cases, but as long as the reader can draw a rational conclusion from knowledge of the methods used, I'm sure it would be vaulable.

Thank you.

[Kelly]

No.

You may put them on your site. :)

Slave driver! I'm trying to get to it, Claus.

Gotta love that biting sense of humor. :D

[Kelly]

Hi Kelly,

There are others here much more knowledgeable about these things than I am; in fact I'm no expert at all. I really only know about these topics from what I read here and a few other places on the web. CFLarsen has some great articles. Also, the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://skepdic.com/) and Skeptic Wiki (http://www.skepticwiki.org/) have a lot of information.

It might be worth your while contecting the people at twopercentco to see if you can use their series on Allison DuBois (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/allison_dubois_week.html).

Perhaps I'm best helping with the web site: coding, testing, hosting, or anything else.

Aw, thanks for the reminders on those links. I know those will be helpful when writing the summaries of methods used, etc.

It may be possible that there are future website needs as we see how this venture grows.

I will be sure to let Mr. Randi know (when he is better) what a huge help his members have been.

[Kelly]

I have posted information about the start of the blog series in the Community forum area.

Thank you, and good night.

[rjh01]

This is located at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53212

[Hardenbergh]

Unverifiable anecdote.



Please identify this "gifted" person.

Please provide information about this case so we can verify just what this "gifted" person did.

I didn't want to provide too many details as this person doesn't like to draw too much attention to himself although I did see an article from the newspaper at the time. I would like to add that he never charged for this service and he is the brother of someone very close to me who has since passed on.

Alex Tanous' brother, Wakine, is an attorney. Both Alex and Wakine were friends of the family I was speaking about above.

[Gr8wight]

I didn't want to provide too many details as this person doesn't like to draw too much attention to himself although I did see an article from the newspaper at the time. I would like to add that he never charged for this service and he is the brother of someone very close to me who has since passed on.

Alex Tanous' brother, Wakine, is an attorney. Both Alex and Wakine were friends of the family I was speaking about above.

Please name the newspaper the article appeared in, and, if you can, the date the article appeared. (Month and year; I don't expect you to remember the exact date).

[Hardenbergh]

Please name the newspaper the article appeared in, and, if you can, the date the article appeared. (Month and year; I don't expect you to remember the exact date).

His brother showed me a copy of the article but this was many years ago. I assume it was a newspaper in northern Maine (either the Bangor Daily News, Katahdin Press, Lincoln News or some such newspaper in or around Millinocket).

[Mercutio]

His brother showed me a copy of the article but this was many years ago. I assume it was a newspaper in northern Maine (either the Bangor Daily News, Katahdin Press, Lincoln News or some such newspaper in or around Millinocket).
If our university library does not have this on microfilm, I have friends in Portland who would be able to find it in their library. Please try to narrow down the date--talk to his brother if you need to.

[JPK]

Good morning Hardenbergh.

I didn't want to provide

I do believe you were asked nicely to start your own thread if you have something to say about this. This thread is about providing grieving parents and family information on how to protect themselves against the second wave of predators, like your friends Alex, and Wakine.
If you wish to provide evidence that psychics have some ability to help, do so in a new thread.
If you would like to talk about all the pain they cause a family and the valuable police time and resources they waste, then all means give us your examples.
Please do not continue to blather on about your deluded friends in this thread.
JPK

[JPK]

Good morning KellyJ.

I moved this post from the other thread. I don't know if you saw it or not.
Originally Posted by KellyJ http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/misc/backlink.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52792&page=3#post1486221):
Is there anything still on the web about this that shows the error of Carla's ways on this case?

I think this is the one where the dad claimed he couldn't remember where he placed their bodies. The mother spent alot of time going back and forth on I-80 looking for them.

Yes that is the case. I think I read in one of your posts that you are aware of I.I.G.
Here is a link to their investigation into Carla Baron's claims of success.
http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html
Sarah and Philip Gehring was thier names.
That case is mentioned there but it hasn't been updated.
JPK

[Hardenbergh]

Good morning Hardenbergh.



I do believe you were asked nicely to start your own thread if you have something to say about this. This thread is about providing grieving parents and family information on how to protect themselves against the second wave of predators, like your friends Alex, and Wakine.
If you wish to provide evidence that psychics have some ability to help, do so in a new thread.
If you would like to talk about all the pain they cause a family and the valuable police time and resources they waste, then all means give us your examples.
Please do not continue to blather on about your deluded friends in this thread.
JPK

I'm aware that there are more charlatans than not but I'm confident that there are many that have helped the police. I'm very sorry that the author of this thread has had this experience. I'll say no more about it.

[JPK]

Good morning Hardenbergh.

I'm aware that there are more charlatans than not but I'm confident that there are many that have helped the police. I'm very sorry that the author of this thread has had this experience. I'll say no more about it.
Thank you for understanding. I would be very interested to hear any evidence you have about the real psychics you know, on another thread. Feel free to start one.
JPK

[CFLarsen]

I didn't want to provide too many details as this person doesn't like to draw too much attention to himself although I did see an article from the newspaper at the time. I would like to add that he never charged for this service and he is the brother of someone very close to me who has since passed on.

Alex Tanous' brother, Wakine, is an attorney. Both Alex and Wakine were friends of the family I was speaking about above.

None of this answers any of my questions.

In fact, this is the same pathetic drivel we hear, each time people like you tries to perpetuate the myth of psychics being able to talk to the dead.

We hear the grand claims, yes. Boy, do we hear them. But when you and the likes of you are asked - ever so politely - to provide evidence, we hear the same heartless excuses. No, you don't "want" to identify these psychics. No, you want to "protect" their identity.

Don't you understand how much pain you cause people in deep grief, by making these claims you are utterly unable to back up with evidence?

Don't you understand how little credibility you have, when you claim that this person doesn't want to draw "too much attention" to himself, despite the fact that the very same person seeks attention by appearing the the media?

You refuse to identify this psychic, not out of concern for him or the grieving family, but because you know damn well that your claim will be torn apart, if you allow skeptics to investigate your claim. You know that these psychics can't talk to the dead.

Go on, start your whining. Begin to tell us how mean we are, simply because we want to check your claim. Tell your friends, too. We have heard it all before, and we are not impressed. Not at all.

You are the reason why people like Sylvia Browne, James van Praagh, John Edward and Carla Baron can continue to bilk poor, grieving people out of their money, while sucking on their grief.

You protect these scumbags, because you would rather prefer to have your own beliefs untouched, regardless of the consequences.

"There are no greater liars in the world than quacks — except for their patients."
Benjamin Franklin

[Hardenbergh]

None of this answers any of my questions.

In fact, this is the same pathetic drivel we hear, each time people like you tries to perpetuate the myth of psychics being able to talk to the dead.

We hear the grand claims, yes. Boy, do we hear them. But when you and the likes of you are asked - ever so politely - to provide evidence, we hear the same heartless excuses. No, you don't "want" to identify these psychics. No, you want to "protect" their identity.

Don't you understand how much pain you cause people in deep grief, by making these claims you are utterly unable to back up with evidence?

Don't you understand how little credibility you have, when you claim that this person doesn't want to draw "too much attention" to himself, despite the fact that the very same person seeks attention by appearing the the media?

You refuse to identify this psychic, not out of concern for him or the grieving family, but because you know damn well that your claim will be torn apart, if you allow skeptics to investigate your claim. You know that these psychics can't talk to the dead.

Go on, start your whining. Begin to tell us how mean we are, simply because we want to check your claim. Tell your friends, too. We have heard it all before, and we are not impressed. Not at all.

You are the reason why people like Sylvia Browne, James van Praagh, John Edward and Carla Baron can continue to bilk poor, grieving people out of their money, while sucking on their grief.

You protect these scumbags, because you would rather prefer to have your own beliefs untouched, regardless of the consequences.

"There are no greater liars in the world than quacks — except for their patients."
Benjamin Franklin

He doesn't advertise the fact that he has psychic abilities and has rarely used it. He is not--I repeat--he is not a scumbag. I'm sure that the article was printed with much reluctance on his part. I said nothing about his communicating with the dead.

[JPK]

Would you like me to start the thread for you to disscuss this or would you be good enough to do this on your own?
JPK

[Roadtoad]

Well, if he has any credibility, let's see him go for the million. If he wins, he's the real deal. If not, we know he's a scammer.

Since he has yet to try, I go with scammer. He may not get rich from using his "gifts," but he seems to get something from it. Why else would he do it?

[Hardenbergh]

Well, if he has any credibility, let's see him go for the million. If he wins, he's the real deal. If not, we know he's a scammer.

Since he has yet to try, I go with scammer. He may not get rich from using his "gifts," but he seems to get something from it. Why else would he do it?

It was in his own community and perhaps he knew the family and wanted to help out.

[CFLarsen]

He doesn't advertise the fact that he has psychic abilities and has rarely used it. He is not--I repeat--he is not a scumbag. I'm sure that the article was printed with much reluctance on his part. I said nothing about his communicating with the dead.

I am not interested in your pathetic excuses. Show the evidence, or stop hurting these poor, grieving people.

[Roadtoad]

It was in his own community and perhaps he knew the family and wanted to help out.

In other words, he's groovin' on the attention.

He's a scammer.

[Hardenbergh]

In other words, he's groovin' on the attention.

He's a scammer.

He's not "groovin" on the attention. He'd be doing a lot more of it. He's not an attention monger, I assure you.

[JPK]

Done. I have started a new thread just for you Hardenbergh. Please continue this disscusion there.
JPK

[Beth]

We hear the grand claims, yes. Boy, do we hear them. But when you and the likes of you are asked - ever so politely - to provide evidence, we hear the same heartless excuses. No, you don't "want" to identify these psychics. No, you want to "protect" their identity.

You refuse to identify this psychic, not out of concern for him or the grieving family, but because you know damn well that your claim will be torn apart, if you allow skeptics to investigate your claim. You know that these psychics can't talk to the dead.

You protect these scumbags, because you would rather prefer to have your own beliefs untouched, regardless of the consequences.


You are attributing thoughts and motivations to other people that you cannot know if they are true. You don't know what Hardenbergh believes regarding whether psychics can or cannot talk to the dead, therefore you do not know what s/he knows regarding that fact. Further, it's directly contradictory with the next statement I've included. If Hardenbergh knows that psychics can't talk to the dead, there would be no motivation to "protect" that belief regardless of the consequences.

While you may consider reasons of wanting to 'protect' the identity of non-professional self-described pyschics bogus, the truth is that many such psychics do not care to discuss their experiences or even be named as a psychic in a public forum such as this. Thus, if discussing a personal friend who feels that way, such a revelation would be tantamount to betrayal of the friendship and expecting someone to do so despite the objections of their friend is unrealistic and inappropriate.

So basically, I think you've made a bunch of unfounded accusations designed to incite an emotional response or drive the poster away from this forum rather than sparking further conversation and discussion of the matter. You come across as mean and vindictive rather than knowledge seeking. Is this the image you wish to portray?

[The_Fire]

Kindly take this little bashfest to the proper thread. ALL of you!

[Roadtoad]

So moved. And done.

[CFLarsen]

You are attributing thoughts and motivations to other people that you cannot know if they are true. You don't know what Hardenbergh believes regarding whether psychics can or cannot talk to the dead, therefore you do not know what s/he knows regarding that fact. Further, it's directly contradictory with the next statement I've included. If Hardenbergh knows that psychics can't talk to the dead, there would be no motivation to "protect" that belief regardless of the consequences.

Oh, yes, there would: Belief in the supernatural is so captivating that it is impossible to relinquish. Almost. We do see examples, but as a rule, people are not willing to abandon their beliefs.

This isn't just evident in belief in psychics. We see it in all forms of supernatural beliefs: Homeopaths (Dr. MAS and Dr. Sheik), Astrologers (Karen Boesen), Magnetism Healers (Roger Coghill) - you name it: All refuse to provide evidence of their claims, all refuse to have their claims examined, all refuse to give up their false beliefs.

While you may consider reasons of wanting to 'protect' the identity of non-professional self-described pyschics bogus, the truth is that many such psychics do not care to discuss their experiences or even be named as a psychic in a public forum such as this. Thus, if discussing a personal friend who feels that way, such a revelation would be tantamount to betrayal of the friendship and expecting someone to do so despite the objections of their friend is unrealistic and inappropriate.

Sorry, but this psychic is already out in the open. Even if this was not so, the nature of the claim makes it imperative that we investigate it. We are talking about the ability to locate lost children. We simply cannot just let such a claim go untested or unchallenged.

If this person can find them, then we can save lives. If this person can not find them, then he has to be stopped from preying on grieving people. By investigating these claims, we have everything to win. If we don't investigate them, we have everything to lose.

So basically, I think you've made a bunch of unfounded accusations designed to incite an emotional response or drive the poster away from this forum rather than sparking further conversation and discussion of the matter. You come across as mean and vindictive rather than knowledge seeking. Is this the image you wish to portray?

Excuse me if I get a bit upset about the reality of psychics scamming grieving people. Why did you not address that aspect at all? All you did was protect the scammers.

[Beth]

Responded in the other thread per request to move this discussion elsewhere.

[Katachresis]

Thanks, Beth.

I've been working on a question I want to ask about the relationship between "psychics" and families that have a missing family memeber. I can't get the words or phrases the way I want them yet, but that is the direction we should be moving.

You're right Beth, let's stay on topic.

[Dr Adequate]

SkepticWiki now has an article.

Psychic Detectives

I found the links by searching this forum for threads with the word "detective" in them.

Ah, yes, I remember Lucianarchy ... oh the fun we had ...

Here's a good bit from one of the links:

Police listened with more that the usual interest to a psychic who told them about a serious industrial fire that he not only predicted with great accuracy, but about which he had supplied important details after the event, details which it appeared he could only know as a result of his special powers. His account was so accurate that he was immediately arrested and an investigation soon reveled that he'd had no need of paranormal powers to produce his visions. His information was essentially first hand: He himself was the arsonist. * (http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm)
* sniggers *

Professionals Against Confidence Crime (http://pac-c.org/police%20&%20psychics.htm) is a nice authoritative source.

Please let me know when the projected website is up and running, and about the Tony Youens article when it materializes, and I can add links.

Is there anything else I should add?

[Ashles]

Is there anything else I should add?
Just about anything involving Dennis Mackenzie.

A nasty piece of work who everyone should be warned about.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28352&highlight=dennis+mackenzie

Another old thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=34908&highlight=dennis+mackenzie

I wish psychics could help police. Oh how I wish that.

I just no longer understand how anyone can believe they do.

[Luke T.]

There's a few things I would like to have.

1) A dialog between a missing person family and a psychic that shows the methods the psychic uses to extract information and convince the family that they really do have paranormal abilities.

I think you would be better situated to come up with what kind of sales pitch a psychic makes to the family of a missing person. I'm kind of curious myself. It must take incredible nerve for someone to initiate contact with a grieving family.


3) An article about the tricks used by TV psychics: what really goes on behind the scenes

We can only speculate what goes on behind the scenes on a TV show.

4) I don't know much about Remote Viewing, so I'd like an article about what that is and why it's another false claim

An excellent article on Skeptic Report that I mentioned earlier: http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/psitechsmart.htm

Kelly, I told you in a PM that every time I hear of a psychic on the news being given any credibility, I write to the reporter or editor of the story to give them hell.

I am going to link to a topic on Skeptical Community in which I used some pretty strong language, so you are forewarned.

The topic is here, (http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=169977) and I deconstruct the story that was on the news, and then post what I wrote to the reporter.

If you would like me to write a short article about this story to show how the media allows itself to be manipulated and gives psychics validity, as well as an excellent example of how it makes it look like even law enforcement is validating the psychic, I'd be very happy to do so.

ETA: It appears that the Fox web site removed the video which I make reference to. Fortunately, I copied some of the transcript into my post in the aforelinked topic.

[Luke T.]

Kelly, if you can ask someone who has been solicited by a psychic to find their missing loved one to recollect as accurately as possible what was said/claimed by the psychic in the conversation, I will be happy to write a Self-Defense Course on how to handle such calls. The more input you can collect from various people, the better. That way we can get an idea of the typical sales pitch.

I imagine the psychics claim to have worked with the police and to have "helped" find missing children/loved ones, and so on.

I would write such an article along these lines:

If a psychic calls you to offer their services, here are the following steps you should take...

1. Hang up.

:)

Of course, I would go into more than that. I would arm them with questions to ask the psychic. Name the children you found. Name the police you helped. Dates, places, etc. Were you credited in any media reports? Which ones? Dates. Do you have ANY references at all, you freaking creep?

You get the idea.

[Mariah]

Kelly, I told you in a PM that every time I hear of a psychic on the news being given any credibility, I write to the reporter or editor of the story to give them hell.

Oh yes, yes. Would that we would ALL do that. Oh, let's. LET'S!!!!

[Luke T.]

Here's the really sick part, Kelly, which I am sure you know: Psychics count on the missing person and person who took them never being found. The odds are in their favor. They can make all kinds of wild claims about activities that occurred surrounding the disappearance with the knowledge that the odds are in their favor. And even if the missing person is found, or the kidnapper caught, no one will remember how far off the psychic was except the immediate family and they aren't going to have the resources to make that knowledge public.

That's what makes the Elizabeth Smart Psi-Tch case so great. She was found alive and none of the events Psi-Tech remotely viewed were remotely correct. It was a spectacular and public failure. And boy did they scurry to cover it up! To no avail.

So use it. Like a hammer.

[Luke T.]

Okay, Kelly. I have just written a two page article on the Kimberly Forbes missing person case and the psychic hired by the TV station.

I titled it "But The News Said Psychics Are Real!"

Just tell me where to email it if you want it.

You can do whatever you want with it. All rights, etc., etc., are yours.

All I ask is that if you credit it to me, that the byline say "Luke T." I don't use my whole name in public venues for personal security reasons.

[Dr Adequate]

Just about anything involving Dennis Mackenzie.

A nasty piece of work who everyone should be warned about. I found a piece by Tony Youens (http://www.tonyyouens.com/commentary.htm#mckenzie) about him and have put in a link.

[Kelly]

Wow!
I leave for the evening and come back to find all of this wonderful help! I just came back from the wrap-up meeting from the search I was assisting with this past 3 days. Let me unwind and catch up with urgent emails, and I will be back to reply.

(Maybe I should leave again??) ;)

Thank you all!

[Mariah]

Hurry up, Kell!

You're getting Left Behind!

[Dr Adequate]

Oh for pete's sake.

Mckenzie's own website (http://www.dennismckenzie.com/main.html) includes:

(1) One of the three different pictures he made of BTK:

http://www.tonyyouens.com/Images/btk2mckenzie.jpg

(2) A photograph of BTK:

http://www.tonyyouens.com/Images/rader.jpg

(3) A claim that he was "incredibly accurate and correct".

So it turns out he's insane ... but it's a profitable sort of insanity. Meanwhile here am I stuck with this crazy urge to howl and bang my head against a wall, and can I make a thin dime out of that?

[Ducky]

Hurry up, Kell!

You're getting Left Behind!



I'm sorry, I didn't see the post where Kelly said she believed in the rapture. Perhaps you could point that one out? Or how that joke is relevant to this thread's purpose and discussion?

[Mariah]

I'm sorry, I didn't see the post where Kelly said she believed in the rapture. Perhaps you could point that one out? Or how that joke is relevant to this thread's purpose and discussion?

Kelly enjoys a little humor every once in a while. She told me so in a PM. I've helped her plenty, myself.

[Ducky]

I'm sorry, I didn't see the post where Kelly said she believed in the rapture. Perhaps you could point that one out? Or how that joke is relevant to this thread's purpose and discussion?

Kelly enjoys a little humor every once in a while. She told me so in a PM. I've helped her plenty, myself.



While I am not opposed to a little humor, I am a bit sensitive about the appearance of attacking's someone's beliefs off topic from their purpose in posting here. Kelly was rather nervous posting on a board with so many athiests that she would be under attack for her religion. I just wanted to be sure it was clear to her that no one's intent is attacking beliefs off topic or without the invitation of debate.

I apologize for the rash response, and I hope you understand my concern. Kelly's contributions here are important and welcome, and I want to be sure she knows that her religion is not under attack.

[Luke T.]

From the article I just wrote, an excerpt:

There are a lot of ways a news outlet can redraw attention to a missing persons case. Publish the missing person’s photos. Give all the details of the disappearance that are known. Interview the police to see what progress has been made. Be factual. A responsible news organization does not aid and abet the criminal by tripping the light fantastic through the Twilight Zone, casting suspicion on innocent people and relating events which in all likelihood contradict what was seen by potential witnesses in the viewing audience, thereby discouraging them from coming forward. Not when a life is at stake. Such gross irresponsibility is beyond the pale.

[Ducky]

From the article I just wrote, an excerpt:


Excellent.

[Mariah]

I believe Kelly knows I'm THE LAST person who would ridicule her beliefs, and here, of all places.

[Hawk one]

OK, so it's kiss and make up time, and then back on track. Right?

[Ducky]

OK, so it's kiss and make up time, and then back on track. Right?



But I have a cold sore!




Sorry for the derail.

[Mariah]

Seriously... there's nothing worse than a "butthead for Jesus".

???

[Ducky]

Seriously... there's nothing worse than a "butthead for Jesus".

???


I'm missing the point there. Perhaps we can avoid derailing the thread further and you could PM your question about things in my sig line.

[Kelly]

Ok, I'm back and will work to catch up with everyone here.

Just to set the record straight, I have conversed with several of you about my beliefs, and yes, that nervousness about being in the "lion's den". Those fears were unfounded, and no one has fired a volley my way. The lions ended up being pussycats. :)

You guys will really get a kick out of this, but I had posted the same post#1 on a major Catholic forum, and only had a few responses! Sometimes people just don't know what to say, I guess. I make them nervous in a different way. No one wants to be me, and sometimes it seems like having a missing child might be contagious.

I do indeed have a sense of humor. Check out the humor thread if you don't believe it.

Oh, and Left Behind is a silly, overwrought brand of Christian literature which has no basis in truth. Catholics do not believe in the "Rapture" in that way.

I did find humor in Mariah's post. I was also very touched by FowlSound's care of my feelings.

Everyone here has just been really wonderful to me. Thank you.

Back to work for me now........

[Ducky]

Ok, I'm back and will work to catch up with everyone here.

Just to set the record straight, I have conversed with several of you about my beliefs, and yes, that nervousness about being in the "lion's den". Those fears were unfounded, and no one has fired a volley my way. The lions ended up being pussycats. :)

You guys will really get a kick out of this, but I had posted the same post#1 on a major Catholic forum, and only had a few responses! Sometimes people just don't know what to say, I guess. I make them nervous in a different way. No one wants to be me, and sometimes it seems like having a missing child might be contagious.

I do indeed have a sense of humor. Check out the humor thread if you don't believe it.

Oh, and Left Behind is a silly, overwrought brand of Christian literature which has no basis in truth. Catholics do not believe in the "Rapture" in that way.

I did find humor in Mariah's post. I was also very touched by FowlSound's care of my feelings.

Everyone here has just been really wonderful to me. Thank you.

Back to work for me now........



We're nowhere near as cute as pussycats. I do, however, enjoy a ball of yarn occasionally...

I can empathise with the feeling that it may be contagious. I have a post in my blog about ridiculous reactions to cancer that is similar.

I am surprised though, that the Catholic forum did not offer a big response. I can't imagine that they wouldn't see this as the opportunity this forum has to do something to make a difference for the better.

Oh well.

Where's my yarn?

[Kelly]

SkepticWiki now has an article.

Psychic Detectives

I found the links by searching this forum for threads with the word "detective" in them.

Ah, yes, I remember Lucianarchy ... oh the fun we had ...

Here's a good bit from one of the links:


* sniggers *

Professionals Against Confidence Crime (http://pac-c.org/police%20&%20psychics.htm) is a nice authoritative source.

Please let me know when the projected website is up and running, and about the Tony Youens article when it materializes, and I can add links.

Is there anything else I should add?

Both good links.

I really liked the second one as it is LE (Law Enforcement) related. This is the first I have seen of this type of article. I think it also plays a part in adding credibilty to the voices of reason. The last line of the article said it all.

Thanks, Dr. A.

[Kelly]

We're nowhere near as cute as pussycats. I do, however, enjoy a ball of yarn occasionally...

I can empathise with the feeling that it may be contagious. I have a post in my blog about ridiculous reactions to cancer that is similar.

I am surprised though, that the Catholic forum did not offer a big response. I can't imagine that they wouldn't see this as the opportunity this forum has to do something to make a difference for the better.

Oh well.

Where's my yarn?

Interesting about the reactions to cancer as well.

I figured I would at least get a bunch of "so sorry's" on the forum.

[Ducky]

Interesting about the reactions to cancer as well.

I figured I would at least get a bunch of "so sorry's" on the forum.



I think any subject that plays into very basic fears we have will garner the same type of aversion from those not directly exposed to it, generally.





ETA:

By the way, blue is blue.

Signed,

Captain Obvious.



(yeesh. That's what I get for waxing philisophical on an hour of sleep for the past 3 days.)

[Kelly]

Just about anything involving Dennis Mackenzie.

A nasty piece of work who everyone should be warned about.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28352&highlight=dennis+mackenzie

Another old thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=34908&highlight=dennis+mackenzie

I wish psychics could help police. Oh how I wish that.

I just no longer understand how anyone can believe they do.

I never heard of MacKenzie, but perhaps because he is from the UK.

As I go back through this thread, I take another look and see if it can blend in with the story. There were some more excellent links on the second thread about LE and psychics. Now if I only knew a retired cop who can write!

Regardless, this aspect of things will make for a well-rounded series.

[Kelly]

Kelly, if you can ask someone who has been solicited by a psychic to find their missing loved one to recollect as accurately as possible what was said/claimed by the psychic in the conversation, I will be happy to write a Self-Defense Course on how to handle such calls. The more input you can collect from various people, the better. That way we can get an idea of the typical sales pitch.

I imagine the psychics claim to have worked with the police and to have "helped" find missing children/loved ones, and so on.

I would write such an article along these lines:

If a psychic calls you to offer their services, here are the following steps you should take...

1. Hang up.

:)

Of course, I would go into more than that. I would arm them with questions to ask the psychic. Name the children you found. Name the police you helped. Dates, places, etc. Were you credited in any media reports? Which ones? Dates. Do you have ANY references at all, you freaking creep?

You get the idea.

Yep, I get the idea.

To backtrack, the original idea for the dialog was for a dialog as the "reading" is taking place. This dialog would clearly show the reader when the psychic is using certain methods, such as shotgunning and intimidation to make the victim find a fit, etc, etc.

What you suggest is also excellent. So far, I don't really have much of the pre-event info. One man told me that he's had the guilt trip business in which they state things like: "I won't be able to sleep until I talk to you." I seem to recall having this happen to me on at least one occasion.

I've also had them insinuate that I must not care about finding Jason, otherwise I would jump at the offer. This again was coupled with the "just one conversation" plea. I wish I had more on that one.

[Ducky]

I've also had them insinuate that I must not care about finding Jason, otherwise I would jump at the offer. This again was coupled with the "just one conversation" plea. I wish I had more on that one.


:jaw-dropp


Had I been in your shoes I would have been hard pressed not to unleash a can of verbal whoop-ass.

But then I am not shy about letting loose verbally about things.






I know. I know. Shocking, isn't it?



Seriouosly, is there a way to poll families on this? Perhaps some phone legwork can be done? I'm willing to call and email and gather info on this if needed.

[Gr8wight]

You guys will really get a kick out of this, but I had posted the same post#1 on a major Catholic forum, and only had a few responses! Sometimes people just don't know what to say, I guess.

I suspect you got very little response from people on the catholic message board because there are a large proportion of people there who believe in psychics. I married into a catholic family, and my experience is that they are all very credulous. My mother-in-law goes a psychic regularly. My wife, a professional businesswoman has even gone to one, and been astounded by the accuracy of what she heard. Of course, this was the same psychic that her mother and other family members had been to. Can you say hot reading?

[Kelly]

Here's the really sick part, Kelly, which I am sure you know: Psychics count on the missing person and person who took them never being found. The odds are in their favor. They can make all kinds of wild claims about activities that occurred surrounding the disappearance with the knowledge that the odds are in their favor. And even if the missing person is found, or the kidnapper caught, no one will remember how far off the psychic was except the immediate family and they aren't going to have the resources to make that knowledge public.

That's what makes the Elizabeth Smart Psi-Tch case so great. She was found alive and none of the events Psi-Tech remotely viewed were remotely correct. It was a spectacular and public failure. And boy did they scurry to cover it up! To no avail.

So use it. Like a hammer.

OH, boy, did I get a good one in today. It is about a missing/then found murdered young mother. She was found a couple of months after she was missing. Since it was not such a long time ago, the friend was able to recall quite a few of the stories. I think this one is going to rock the house. I already know the story and it brought a tear to my eye. It fits right into what you are saying in your 1st paragraph.

I read the Psi-Tech report a long time ago. I'm glad it was brought up again here, because, yes, it is a good example.

[Kelly]

:jaw-dropp


Had I been in your shoes I would have been hard pressed not to unleash a can of verbal whoop-ass.

But then I am not shy about letting loose verbally about things.


I know. I know. Shocking, isn't it?

Seriouosly, is there a way to poll families on this? Perhaps some phone legwork can be done? I'm willing to call and email and gather info on this if needed.

I can send out an email poll, yes.

You know, if it wasn't for my position as the leader of an org, I would let loose on them. I have to remain calm and respectful at all times. :(

In one of my stories though, I do let lose and use the F-bomb. I had to. It was awful.

[delphi_ote]

I suspect you got very little response from people on the catholic message board because there are a large proportion of people there who believe in psychics. I married into a catholic family, and my experience is that they are all very credulous. My mother-in-law goes a psychic regularly. My wife, a professional businesswoman has even gone to one, and been astounded by the accuracy of what she heard. Of course, this was the same psychic that her mother and other family members had been to. Can you say hot reading?

*hands to temples* I'm getting something... you're a married male from Ontario... you have a child whose name starts with... with an "M"... you enjoy two things that begin with the letter "B"... you drink one while you listen to the other...

Hot reading is fun!

[Kelly]

I suspect you got very little response from people on the catholic message board because there are a large proportion of people there who believe in psychics. I married into a catholic family, and my experience is that they are all very credulous. My mother-in-law goes a psychic regularly. My wife, a professional businesswoman has even gone to one, and been astounded by the accuracy of what she heard. Of course, this was the same psychic that her mother and other family members had been to. Can you say hot reading?

I didn't even recognize you without the hat! I even said to myself: "Oh, a new person." Thanks for the nice write-up. I did see several hits coming from there today. My site meter is open, so you can view it if you're curious.

Yes, in my family, several believe, although no one visits them. The one I mention in post #1 cannot be swayed. :(

[Kelly]

Okay, Kelly. I have just written a two page article on the Kimberly Forbes missing person case and the psychic hired by the TV station.

I titled it "But The News Said Psychics Are Real!"

Just tell me where to email it if you want it.

You can do whatever you want with it. All rights, etc., etc., are yours.

All I ask is that if you credit it to me, that the byline say "Luke T." I don't use my whole name in public venues for personal security reasons.

I Pm'd you with my email. This will be a great addition. Slap the media in the face about this. They need a wake-up call, too.

And, yes, everyone should follow your lead and write and complain when the media gives psychics credibility.

Thank you!

[Gr8wight]

*hands to temples* I'm getting something... you're a married male from Ontario... you have a child whose name starts with... with an "M"... you enjoy two things that begin with the letter "B"... you drink one while you listen to the other...


Oh. My. God!!!!eleventyone

How did you know all that. It's almost like you could go somewhere and read about me. Freaky, man.

[delphi_ote]

Oh. My. God!!!!eleventyone

How did you know all that. It's almost like you could go somewhere and read about me. Freaky, man.

I call that place "The Aurora Walking Spirit Vacation Realm." Think I could get my own TV show like John Edwards?

[Kelly]

I found a piece by Tony Youens (http://www.tonyyouens.com/commentary.htm#mckenzie) about him and have put in a link.

Interesting, as is the part about BTK. The sketches are obviously way off.

Edited to add: I think I am done catching up. If I forgot something you asked or needed a response on, please remind me. Thanks.

[a_unique_person]

There was an absolutely disgraceful TV series on Australian television not so long ago.

They had 'psychics' doing a 'cold case' on an unsolved murder of a young girl. The family, distraught at the memories of the place they lived in, moved interstate.

One of the psychics (none of whom actually provided any 'evidence' beyond what was already well known in the public domain, btw), had the gall to say that they could sense the dead girls spirit, and she was sad because she was now all alone since they had moved away. I could not believe they actually screened that.

[chillzero]

[QUOTE=KellyJ;1489849]You know, if it wasn't for my position as the leader of an org, I would let loose on them. I have to remain calm and respectful at all times. :(
QUOTE]

You need to have someone like Kramer to hand. :D

oh - pick me! pick me!!
(actually, Luke T or FowlSound always manage to word things better than I do - pick them :))

[Kelly]

There was an absolutely disgraceful TV series on Australian television not so long ago.

They had 'psychics' doing a 'cold case' on an unsolved murder of a young girl. The family, distraught at the memories of the place they lived in, moved interstate.

One of the psychics (none of whom actually provided any 'evidence' beyond what was already well known in the public domain, btw), had the gall to say that they could sense the dead girls spirit, and she was sad because she was now all alone since they had moved away. I could not believe they actually screened that.

That's awful. Shame on that show. It's a rating racket, alright.

Someone else prompted about Daniel Morcombe's story. I'm going to try to remember ot email their family tonight and see if they want to say anything. I know they've had some leeches, too.

[Kelly]

[QUOTE=KellyJ;1489849]You know, if it wasn't for my position as the leader of an org, I would let loose on them. I have to remain calm and respectful at all times. :(
QUOTE]

You need to have someone like Kramer to hand. :D

oh - pick me! pick me!!
(actually, Luke T or FowlSound always manage to word things better than I do - pick them :))

Hi Poster Formerly Known as Cabby!

That is a good idea to have a psychic isssue spokesperson. I might want to be able to forward emails to them if people ignore my request not to email me about these issues.

[Luke T.]

OH, boy, did I get a good one in today. It is about a missing/then found murdered young mother. She was found a couple of months after she was missing. Since it was not such a long time ago, the friend was able to recall quite a few of the stories. I think this one is going to rock the house. I already know the story and it brought a tear to my eye. It fits right into what you are saying in your 1st paragraph.

Outstanding! Can't wait to see it.

[Luke T.]

I Pm'd you with my email. This will be a great addition. Slap the media in the face about this. They need a wake-up call, too.

Done. Just shipped it to your email address.

And, yes, everyone should follow your lead and write and complain when the media gives psychics credibility.



Yes. Email reporters and help them understand this is not harmless entertainment.

A factual report may trigger a memory in a witness in the viewing audience and help break the case.

A psychic making up events surrounding a case which did not actually occur may actually PREVENT a potential witness viewer from recalling an important clue.

[Gr8wight]

Kelly,
I e-mailed the organizer of a blog carnival called The Skeptics' Circle (http://skepticscircle.blogspot.com/), and I believe your series will get a mention (and a link) in the next edition, which will be published March 16th at Paige's Page (http://paiges-page.net/).

Two things:

1) Yes this is somewhat preaching to the choir, in that most of the readers will already be skeptics, but a wider audience in general can only be good for Project Jason (IMHO).

2) As most of the readers will already be skeptics, it may subject your religious beliefs to some comment. I hope that is kept to a minimum, and that the skeptical community at large can live up to the level of respect you have received here.

[Kelly]

Check out this new blog comment:

"What about the series on court tv called "Psychic Detectives"? Is that all a farce? Some of cases show how the psychics led the detectives to solve the crime. Just a thought after reading your post. I too am a new reader and don't know what NCMEC stands for. I saw your post at the court tv message board. I will follow the blog with interest and hope others will too. I hope it can save someone else some of the heartache you have endured."

Hey, if it's on TV, it's real, right?

Is there an article specifically about that show? (debunking)

I did, BTW, edit NCMEC and wrote it out.

[Kelly]

Kelly,
I e-mailed the organizer of a blog carnival called The Skeptics' Circle (http://skepticscircle.blogspot.com/), and I believe your series will get a mention (and a link) in the next edition, which will be published March 16th at Paige's Page (http://paiges-page.net/).

Two things:

1) Yes this is somewhat preaching to the choir, in that most of the readers will already be skeptics, but a wider audience in general can only be good for Project Jason (IMHO).

2) As most of the readers will already be skeptics, it may subject your religious beliefs to some comment. I hope that is kept to a minimum, and that the skeptical community at large can live up to the level of respect you have received here.

On 1) Yes, I agree. People need to be educated on these issues. They need to know what to do and where to go. We service all walks of life, all faiths and beliefs. (I don't mention religion to our families unless they bring it up first.) I'll bet most of you had no idea about the plight of the missing before I came. Truly, time is such and enemy when you have a missing person, and if you know who to call, it can make a difference.

2) If they should give me grief, I will read with one eye closed! What's important is to get the info out there.

These are excellent, excellent ideas. Thank you for the action.

[Luke T.]

Check out this new blog comment:

"What about the series on court tv called "Psychic Detectives"? Is that all a farce? Some of cases show how the psychics led the detectives to solve the crime. Just a thought after reading your post. I too am a new reader and don't know what NCMEC stands for. I saw your post at the court tv message board. I will follow the blog with interest and hope others will too. I hope it can save someone else some of the heartache you have endured."

Hey, if it's on TV, it's real, right?

Is there an article specifically about that show? (debunking)

I did, BTW, edit NCMEC and wrote it out.

The frustrating thing about TV Shows like "Psychic Detectives" is that the presenter is so obviously biased toward believing in psychic phenomena. And there is no way to know what information they have deliberately withheld, or chosen not to pursue, that might cast doubt on the psychics.

Usually.

Fortunately, some members of this forum were able to find a deliberate case of biased reporting and withholding of vital information in one psychic detective showcase.

Read this topic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=585037) to learn about it.

[JPK]

Good morning.

I actually like to watch the show Psychic Detectives. It is a shame that it is on Court TV since it totally mocks the hard work and real investigative skills that law enforcement do use. Sci Fi or Comedy Channel might be a better choice. If you watch the shows carefully and don't get sidetracked by the trippy sound effects and dizzing camera effects, like when they go spinning around the alleged psychic, you will notice that inspite of the biased and unfair editing, the psychic doesn't actually solve the case. Lot's of after the fact declarations though.
JPK

[Luke T.]

Interesting about the reactions to cancer as well.

I figured I would at least get a bunch of "so sorry's" on the forum.

It doesn't say anything good or bad about the Catholic forum that they were unable to help. They just don't have the skill set that is needed.

And as RSLancaster has shown with his efforts to stop Kaz, even people of faith appreciate efforts to expose frauds.

"Progress, not perfection".

[Kelly]

Fortunately, some members of this forum were able to find a deliberate case of biased reporting and withholding of vital information in one psychic detective showcase.

Read this topic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=585037) to learn about it.

I posted that link on the comments section for that person. I see our thaiboxerken has been there as well.

[Luke T.]

I posted that link on the comments section for that person. I see our thaiboxerken has been there as well.

Thaiboxerken is our man on the scene at Court TV. :D

Nobody has a better handle on that situation than he does.

[Kelly]

Good morning to you JPK.

I posted on that specific Catholic forum because it is fairly good size and because in my keyword search for "psychic", I found there were a few psychics posting there who had come clean. I thought some "conversion" stories would be a good thing to add in. I was still also hoping to find the psychologist person to shed light on the guilt angle.

I knew this was the best place for the debunking apsect of things. :)

[Kelly]

Thaiboxerken is our man on the scene at Court TV. :D

Nobody has a better handle on that situation than he does.

I believe he said they banned him. I posted my link on the thread he frequented and they just dismissed me without a second thought and continued on with their chit-chat. :(

[Kelly]

Someone posted on one of my outside threads about a psychic named Nancy Myer. I thought someone had posted about her on this subforum, but a search proved fruitless. Does anyone have a quick link to her shenanigans?

Thanks,
Kelly

[Dr Adequate]

Both good links.

I really liked the second one as it is LE (Law Enforcement) related. This is the first I have seen of this type of article. I think it also plays a part in adding credibilty to the voices of reason. The last line of the article said it all.

Thanks, Dr. A. Well, thank you. If it wasn't for people such as yourself, with first hand experience, telling people the score, then there'd be no data except a lot of silly news stories and skeptics would have nothing to answer them with.

Also, it's nice to feel useful ... it's not often that people think "What I need is a bunch of skeptics". Which is a shame considering how often that's exactly what they need.

As far as your Catholic forum goes, as Luke says, they don't have the skill set ... or the experience. To put together the SkepticWiki article, all I had to do was look in the threads where we'd already given psychic detectives a good drubbing, and follow the links.

For some excellent Catholic skepticism, try the Father Brown stories (http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/c) by G K Chesterton.

[Luke T.]

Someone posted on one of my outside threads about a psychic named Nancy Myer. I thought someone had posted about her on this subforum, but a search proved fruitless. Does anyone have a quick link to her shenanigans?

Thanks,
Kelly

The article I emailed you is about Nancy Myer.

[Dr Adequate]

That's lucky ...

That reminds me. Let me know whre the article appears so that SW can link to it.

I do give one example of a psychic manipulating the media ... that quote from KlaasKids.

Unbelievable. Apparently you can just walk into a TV station and say "Hello, I have magical crime-fighting abilities", and instead of the journalists checking your story, which is their job, they reply: "Please let us give you five minutes of free advertising disguised as news".

If they need to pad their program out with novelty acts, they should get a juggler.

[Kelly]

The article I emailed you is about Nancy Myer.

Oh my! I have to laugh at myself. I was thinking that I knew I just read something about her, but thought it was on the forum or in a link someone provided. You must think me a ditz!

The truth be known....I need a bit more sleep tonight.

Data Overload! :D

[Kelly]

That's lucky ...

That reminds me. Let me know whre the article appears so that SW can link to it.

I do give one example of a psychic manipulating the media ... that quote from KlaasKids.

Unbelievable. Apparently you can just walk into a TV station and say "Hello, I have magical crime-fighting abilities", and instead of the journalists checking your story, which is their job, they reply: "Please let us give you five minutes of free advertising disguised as news".

If they need to pad their program out with novelty acts, they should get a juggler.

We'll let you know the link, you bet.

Little by little, we're building a good base of information about our topic.

I'm good buds with Marc Klaas' right hand man. He is going to get me something from Marc...not sure how much as he is so busy.

You hit the nail on the head. (bolded info)

We have some excellent teamwork going here, Dr. A. I also like the way the new discussions on this subforum are going: heavy hitting, but fair debating.

Other than Marc Klaas firm stand, and NCMEC's statement, I do not know of any missing person org who has tackled this issue in such an upfront way. I definetely don't know of any who are presenting real stories.

This is groundbreaking, don't you think? (Or am I just a dreamer?)

[Luke T.]

Oh my! I have to laugh at myself. I was thinking that I knew I just read something about her, but thought it was on the forum or in a link someone provided. You must think me a ditz!

The truth be known....I need a bit more sleep tonight.

Data Overload! :D

I don't think you a ditz at all. In fact, between all the links here that people have been posting, and the links and information and article I have sent you by email, all of which you have read, I have been astonished at your level of absorption.

Data overload, for sure. And entirely understandable.

[CFLarsen]

You must think me a ditz!

Oh, no.

(scurries away)

[Kelly]

Oh, no.

(scurries away)

You'd better run fast, Claus!!

[Ducky]

You'd better run fast, Claus!!



I have met Claus, and I can attest he scurries faster than the average person.


Especially when arranging a dinner with too many people...

[CFLarsen]

You'd better run fast, Claus!!
Have you done your own work on this site we have been working on?

No?

Eh?

Get crackin', then... :p

[George152]

I can think of a missing persons case involving Sylvia Browne. About ten years ago, she was on the Montel Williams show, talking about missing persons cases. One case involved that bass player from Iron Butterfly, who had gone missing a year or so earlier. Anyway, Sylvia claimed she saw him being kidnapped and taken aboard a boat. She also said he was probably dead,which seemed very cruel of her to say. A couple of years later, his remains were found:

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,4843,00.html

I don't recall any news stories about Sylvia Browne being wrong about this case, but maybe James Randi has better documentation in his files.

Sylvia Browne is just a longwinded way of writing 'wrong'

[CFLarsen]

Sylvia Browne is just a longwinded way of writing 'wrong'

Or "Fake". "Crook". "Cheat". "Raper of Sorrow". (OK, that was longer, but more precise, courtesy of LostAngeles)

[Kelly]

Have you done your own work on this site we have been working on?

No?

Eh?

Get crackin', then... :p

Slavedriver! :boggled:

It won't be today, though, as I have a meeting that will last all evening long.

[Gr8wight]

I can think of a missing persons case involving Sylvia Browne. About ten years ago, she was on the Montel Williams show, talking about missing persons cases. One case involved that bass player from Iron Butterfly, who had gone missing a year or so earlier. Anyway, Sylvia claimed she saw him being kidnapped and taken aboard a boat. She also said he was probably dead,which seemed very cruel of her to say. A couple of years later, his remains were found:

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,4843,00.html

I don't recall any news stories about Sylvia Browne being wrong about this case, but maybe James Randi has better documentation in his files.


Hikers found the remains Saturday near a totaled 1993 Ford van at the bottom of a canyon, more than 400 feet below the nearby road, in Southern California's picturesque Malibu. Evidence suggests the crash was the result of a suicide mission, the Los Angeles Times says.

Clearly, Sylvia got it all correct. His kidnappers sailed their boat up the road to where they had stashed an old Ford van, which they then forced him to commit suicide in. Yeah, that's how it happened.

[Kelly]

Anyone feel liike gently setting them straight?

http://www.jenniferkesse.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

I don't have anything to do with this case. Someone just posted my blog link there, but I do not know who they are.

[Ducky]

Anyone feel liike gently setting them straight?

http://www.jenniferkesse.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

I don't have anything to do with this case. Someone just posted my blog link there, but I do not know who they are.


Well, I would, but I do not think I am the man for that job. Perhaps MRC_Hans would be a better choice. HIs display of civility against teh homeopaths is well known, even when most mere mortals would have let loose.


I'll make a very polite post, and hope they don't come back angry. If they do I'll avoid the rest. No need to start flame wars on someone's missing persons forum.


ETA: No I will not. Frankly what those people are doing by speculating places and names in that forum is rather insensitive to the family's situation, and they are true believers(TM). It would end in a nasty flame war. My heart goes out to that family, and I hope they do not fall prey to the guilt that would cause them to desperately use a psychic. I will not, however walk into a nest of snakes in their backyard if only to spare them an ugly happening on their own forum. Perhaps we can invite the believers in psychics over here.

[Kelly]

No, we would never want to start a battle on a forum like that. I have no doubt that your observation is dead on. It would probably end up like CTV.

I hope they will read the blog.

It annoyed me there was even a person who admited to not being a psychic, and they were jumping all over that, too. :(

[Gr8wight]

Anyone feel liike gently setting them straight?

http://www.jenniferkesse.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

I don't have anything to do with this case. Someone just posted my blog link there, but I do not know who they are.

It appears that forum has been taken down. Kelly's link takes me directy to the home page, where I can find no link to a forum.

[Kelly]

It appears that forum has been taken down. Kelly's link takes me directy to the home page, where I can find no link to a forum.

I wonder what happened? Oh, well. At least that person had our link up for awhile. Maybe someone in the family saw it.

[Luke T.]

Anyone feel liike gently setting them straight?

http://www.jenniferkesse.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

I don't have anything to do with this case. Someone just posted my blog link there, but I do not know who they are.

Your link doesn't seem to work, but I found this: http://jenniferkesse.com/guestbook/

I heard on a radio program, the Philips Phile (104.1 FM), that there was a psychic called "Sunshine", who was calling and said that she knew where Jennifer was, etc., but that she didn't want to call the police and tell them because the police would not take her seriously.

The members of the radio program, aired from 3-7 pm, took down her phone number, in case you want to call her. You can call the Philips Phile at 407-916-1041.

Posted by "Anonymous". Yeah.

I have responded at the end of the guest book entries and referred the family to this topic.

[Luke T.]

Hm. I don't see my guestbook entry. Maybe there is a time delay when it posts.

[Kelly]

Great idea to post that, Luke. It's probably a moderated guestbook. If the manager of it is a TB, we'll probably not see it. We can only try.

[Luke T.]

Great idea to post that, Luke. It's probably a moderated guestbook. If the manager of it is a TB, we'll probably not see it. We can only try.

I'm tempted to call the phone number of that DJ (Philips Phile at 407-916-1041) and have a few words with him.

[Kelly]

I'm tempted to call the phone number of that DJ (Philips Phile at 407-916-1041) and have a few words with him.

Be my guest. I know you will handle it appropriately, if you decide to make the call.

[Orphia Nay]

*pops up out of the woodwork*
I have been following this thread, and though I have communicated my support, admiration and respect to KellyJ elsewhere, haven't had any practical suggestions. I am humbled to be a fellow member of such intelligent, caring, constructive and helpful forumites.

It appears that forum has been taken down. Kelly's link takes me directy to the home page, where I can find no link to a forum.


It's working for me. Here's a link to the thread in question (http://www.flfiesta.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209&sid=ed87b3c9c4986087cb2a7f89ce7cc35c).

[Ducky]

*pops up out of the woodwork*
I have been following this thread, and though I have communicated my support, admiration and respect to KellyJ elsewhere, haven't had any practical suggestions. I am humbled to be a fellow member of such intelligent, caring, constructive and helpful forumites.




It's working for me. Here's a link to the thread in question (http://www.flfiesta.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209&sid=ed87b3c9c4986087cb2a7f89ce7cc35c).



Orph, yer a sweetheart :)

[Gr8wight]

It's working for me. Here's a link to the thread in question (http://www.flfiesta.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209&sid=ed87b3c9c4986087cb2a7f89ce7cc35c).

Thanks for that, although when I went there, my heart fell. There is an entire section of the forum dedicated to psychics.

[Kelly]

Thanks for that, although when I went there, my heart fell. There is an entire section of the forum dedicated to psychics.

Not only that, but they appear to be listening to anyone who has some sort of vision. I don't think these are family members posting, but I also have no doubt that family members read this drivel.

[Ducky]

Not only that, but they appear to be listening to anyone who has some sort of vision. I don't think these are family members posting, but I also have no doubt that family members read this drivel.



Well, without posts from the family we don't know if they are buying into it. they very well could be saying "oh look, another idiot with a psychic claim."

At least I hope they are.

Perhaps it would be best to invite those forum members over here.

[Kelly]

Hm. I don't see my guestbook entry. Maybe there is a time delay when it posts.

It's on there now, but appears to be cut off.

http://jenniferkesse.com/guestbook/

[Ducky]

It's on there now, but appears to be cut off.

http://jenniferkesse.com/guestbook/



There's alot of true believers there. I fear a skeptical point of view critical of psychics isn't going to be welcome much.

From time to time, skeptics are treated as though they just strangled a puppy in the middle of a party when we critically examine someone's fast held beliefs in the paranormal.

[Kelly]

There's alot of true believers there. I fear a skeptical point of view critical of psychics isn't going to be welcome much.

From time to time, skeptics are treated as though they just strangled a puppy in the middle of a party when we critically examine someone's fast held beliefs in the paranormal.

I think Luke's was cut off due to space. I signed it, too, but said nothing about psychics. If they do read that forum, they will probably recognize the name.

In good news, our own Chillzero has submitted an excellent guest piece for the blog series! Thank you!

[CFLarsen]

From time to time, skeptics are treated as though they just strangled a puppy in the middle of a party when we critically examine someone's fast held beliefs in the paranormal.

If we can just get to that mild response, we have come far.

[delphi_ote]

From time to time, skeptics are treated as though they just strangled a puppy in the middle of a party when we critically examine someone's fast held beliefs in the paranormal.

It's more like we're treated as though we took a **** on the coats.

[rjh01]

Another link to Lets Help Find Jennifer Kesse web site. This one takes you to the main forum page.

http://jenniferkesse.org/forum/index.php?d=390a2d2a9d5e1b37e5e00a353bee4bdd

I understand this is not authorised by the family. See http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2006/03/the_kesse_web_s.html#more

[Kelly]

Another link to Lets Help Find Jennifer Kesse web site. This one takes you to the main forum page.

http://jenniferkesse.org/forum/index.php?d=390a2d2a9d5e1b37e5e00a353bee4bdd

I understand this is not authorised by the family. See http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2006/03/the_kesse_web_s.html#more

Right. I heard there was a spat between the two. I am sure, however, that the family is still reading the other one. They would have a vested interest in what is going on with it. Thanks for the links.

[Kelly]

The blogger posting mechanism is down, and has been since last night. I am unable to post my next part in the series until they get it fixed again. :mad:

[Kelly]

Someone posted an article about my series on a science blog. They did an excellent intro. Does anyone know who this is?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/project_jason_psychics_and_mis_1.php

The Blogger uploader is still down.

[sophia8]

Someone posted an article about my series on a science blog. They did an excellent intro. Does anyone know who this is?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/project_jason_psychics_and_mis_1.php


That's Orac - he mostly attacks medical fraud and quackery, as you'd expect, but he sometimes takes a break to give a polished slapdown to other frauds as well.

[Kelly]

That's Orac - he mostly attacks medical fraud and quackery, as you'd expect, but he sometimes takes a break to give a polished slapdown to other frauds as well.

Thank you for letting me know. It is indeed polished. I'll have to hunt him down and thank him later on.

I'm off on some errands and I have a press conference early this evening on a local case of a missing child.

[Kelly]

It appears that Blogger finally completed their repairs.

[Kelly]

I just received today and was given permission to use a IM dialog between a psychic and one of our family members. It's somewhat long and shows the psychic is wrong about numerous things throughout, generally ignoring the wrongs or trying to make excuses. It would be highly entertaining if not for the subject matter.

[Gr8wight]

Someone posted an article about my series on a science blog. They did an excellent intro. Does anyone know who this is?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/project_jason_psychics_and_mis_1.php

The Blogger uploader is still down.

Orac was the person I mentioned earlier. I sent him the link. He put me off, by saying he would forward it to the next Skeptics' Circle host. I presume he read the first couple of posts and decided to mention it earlier. I thanked him in his comment thread.

[Kelly]

Orac was the person I mentioned earlier. I sent him the link. He put me off, by saying he would forward it to the next Skeptics' Circle host. I presume he read the first couple of posts and decided to mention it earlier. I thanked him in his comment thread.

I thought that was you. I thanked him as well. Quite a few hits are coming from there.

[Gr8wight]

I thought that was you. I thanked him as well. Quite a few hits are coming from there.

He has a big readership. I wonder if we can get Dr. Myers from Pharyngula to give you a mention? He's got one of the largest readerships in the skeptical and scientific blogosphere. I'll pop a note off to him tonight.

[Kelly]

He has a big readership. I wonder if we can get Dr. Myers from Pharyngula to give you a mention? He's got one of the largest readerships in the skeptical and scientific blogosphere. I'll pop a note off to him tonight.

I don't mind links. That will be interesting if he does post it, as he appears to be pretty much anti-religion. He may be like Susan Blackmore about not wanting association unless disclaimers are used. It's his call, of course.

I am trying to present this and keep religion out of it unless it goes with what I am writing. Family members sharing stories may include statements about religion, and I will not edit. I also have planned a guest writer who will present the Christian viewpoint on why we as beleivers, are not to use psychics or things like tarot cards and oiujia boards, etc. Overall, it's a well balanced presentation in my opinion.

Thank you!

Kelly

[Gr8wight]

I don't mind links. That will be interesting if he does post it, as he appears to be pretty much anti-religion. He may be like Susan Blackmore about not wanting association unless disclaimers are used. It's his call, of course.

I am trying to present this and keep religion out of it unless it goes with what I am writing. Family members sharing stories may include statements about religion, and I will not edit. I also have planned a guest writer who will present the Christian viewpoint on why we as beleivers, are not to use psychics or things like tarot cards and oiujia boards, etc. Overall, it's a well balanced presentation in my opinion.

Thank you!

Kelly

Yes, PZ is an avowed atheist. However, he is against stupidity more than anything else. His beef is only with those who insist on a literal interpretation of the bible (specifically Young earth Creationism) despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Luke T.]

There's a few things I would like to have.

1) A dialog between a missing person family and a psychic that shows the methods the psychic uses to extract information and convince the family that they really do have paranormal abilities.


I just received today and was given permission to use a IM dialog between a psychic and one of our family members. It's somewhat long and shows the psychic is wrong about numerous things throughout, generally ignoring the wrongs or trying to make excuses. It would be highly entertaining if not for the subject matter.

Now we're getting somewhere.

The longer the diaolog, the better. It shows how a psychic will use maxiumum verbosity, counting on the victim to remember the hits and forget the misses.

I read your encounter with Sharon Nolte. Three hours! Same thing. Gibber on incessantly, using what information you gave her to weave a giant tapestry of B.S. in the hopes something will ring "true" for you later on, or to plant an idea in your head that just won't go away, causing you to seek confirmation.

Any chance we can take a look at this IM dialog? It should be made public, and let me tell you why.

About ten years ago, my wife was working as a server at a restaurant owned by a guy who believed in psychics. One day, he told his employees that he was bringing a psychic in to do readings for everyone, and that it would cost 35 dollars. Creep.

My wife and I weren't married at the time, but we were in a serious relationship. When she told me about this psychic business, I gave her my strong opinion about the matter.

However, my wife was going through an extremely dark period at the time. Her father had just died suddenly, and her mother was dying from cancer. So she was vulnerable to psychics, and sat for a reading.

She came home with all kinds of bugaboos in her head, one of which was an obsession with the number 5. The psychic had played up the number 5 as being of significance. Of course, when someone plants such an idea in your head, you see 5's everywhere. Oooh! See? She was right!

Anyway, there was no JREF forum back then, but there was a randi.org. And Randi had a sample psychic reading on this site. So I sat my wife down at the computer and called up the sample reading.

Of course, it bore a remarkable resemblance to the psychic reading she had just received a few days before.

30 seconds later, my wife was converted and ready to take a shotgun to the psychic's face.

That's why any dialog you have, Kelly, is of utmost importance. It will help other people see it's all the same old B.S.

If they have heard it before, they will recognize it immediately. If they haven't heard it yet, they will recognize it when they hear it again.

Either way, it will snap people back to reality.

[Roadtoad]

I ought to mention, Kelly, I put a mention of your site on the EveryTruckJob.com forum. Hopefully, that will generate some more hits, and get the word out.

[YoPopa]

Kelly,

My admiration for the work you are doing and my sympathy for the circumstances that led you into it.

As of this morning, 3/13, it appears that psychicpredators.com is still not registered. I have heard rumors that squatters will sometimes register a name just because they have sniffed interest in the name by someone else. I don't know if that rumor is valid but you don't need to take the risk. I'm sure that if you delegate the task to one of our members who has volunteered that it could be registered today. I will add my name to the list of volunteers for that task if the others are preoccupied with jobs you've already assigned.

P.S. I also favor the name secondwavepredators.com .org .whatever

[Kelly]

I ought to mention, Kelly, I put a mention of your site on the EveryTruckJob.com forum. Hopefully, that will generate some more hits, and get the word out.

Thanks, RT...you da truckin man. Since we do interface with the trucking industry because of our 18 Wheel Angels program, they should have at least heard of us, but not in this respect.

I hope things are going better for you. :)

[Kelly]

Kelly,

My admiration for the work you are doing and my sympathy for the circumstances that led you into it.

As of this morning, 3/13, it appears that psychicpredators.com is still not registered. I have heard rumors that squatters will sometimes register a name just because they have sniffed interest in the name by someone else. I don't know if that rumor is valid but you don't need to take the risk. I'm sure that if you delegate the task to one of our members who has volunteered that it could be registered today. I will add my name to the list of volunteers for that task if the others are preoccupied with jobs you've already assigned.

P.S. I also favor the name secondwavepredators.com .org .whatever

FowlSound, FowlSound, where fore art thou, FowlSound? He's locked in a domain name, but needed to convince GoDaddy to allow a slight change which would be psychicpredators.com. Hopefully, they will do so before someone snatches the name.

Thank you for the reminder and for the well wishes. Claus and FS are the primaries on the website work. Feel free to see if they need any extra help with that.

[Kelly]

Now we're getting somewhere.

The longer the diaolog, the better. It shows how a psychic will use maxiumum verbosity, counting on the victim to remember the hits and forget the misses.

I read your encounter with Sharon Nolte. Three hours! Same thing. Gibber on incessantly, using what information you gave her to weave a giant tapestry of B.S. in the hopes something will ring "true" for you later on, or to plant an idea in your head that just won't go away, causing you to seek confirmation.

Any chance we can take a look at this IM dialog? It should be made public, and let me tell you why.

That's why any dialog you have, Kelly, is of utmost importance. It will help other people see it's all the same old B.S.

If they have heard it before, they will recognize it immediately. If they haven't heard it yet, they will recognize it when they hear it again.

Either way, it will snap people back to reality.

HI Luke,

The family did give permission to share it on the blog. I did email it to Meg as (I believe) she is going to place commentary within to demonstrate what the psychic is trying to pull on the family member. If you would like to look at it, too, and maybe collaborate with Meg, I would be happy to email it to you.

Do you think I should publish it here, too?

I wouldn't be able to do either one until this evening, as I cannot access my read home emails from work.

I'm sorry for all that your wife went through, but glad you wre able to help her see the light.

I am surprised I see nothing else about SN online. You'd think she'd be in the news now and then, wouldn't you? :mad:

[Luke T.]

HI Luke,

The family did give permission to share it on the blog. I did email it to Meg as (I believe) she is going to place commentary within to demonstrate what the psychic is trying to pull on the family member. If you would like to look at it, too, and maybe collaborate with Meg, I would be happy to email it to you.

Okay, email it to me. I will PM Meg to see if she wants any help.


I am surprised I see nothing else about SN online. You'd think she'd be in the news now and then, wouldn't you? :mad:

For a psychic, even bad press is good press. The less she is in the news, the better. It means she isn't getting any traction.

[RSLancastr]

I haven't been in this, the "General Skepticism" part of the JREF board in a couple of weeks, and so had not seen this thread until KellyJ won the February Language award (congratulations by the way - well-deserved!).

I've just got to say how proud I am to be a part of this forum. What you people are all pulling together here, with Kelly at the helm, is nothing less than wonderful. And it will help countless more people than the StopKaz site ever will, since the topic is, sadly, something which effects far more people.

For months, I've been thinking about what I might do next, now that Kaz is laying low. And a site about psychics was high on my list of possibilities.

But with Kelly's perspective and expertise, she makes this project far more credible and meaningful than it would be from a generic skeptical perspective such as mine. She obviously has the passion and drive to make it work, and with the forum gang behind her, I expect this to be a site that will really make a difference in a lot of lives.

Kelly, for you to have taken such pain and suffering and used them to fuel the positive things you do is an inspiration.

If there is anything I can do, please let me know. But it looks like you're in very capable hands already.

-RSL

[Luke T.]

Woo hoo! (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/nancymyer.htm)

[Luke T.]

If there is anything I can do, please let me know. But it looks like you're in very capable hands already.


Kelly, this man's kung fu is too strong for charlatans. If you need someone to nail a psychic to the wall, this is your guy. Someone like that Nolte character is right up his alley. In fact, when I read your blog entry about her and the claims she made (related to Nick Nolte), I immediately thought of RSL and Kaz DeMille and her similar claims.

[Kelly]

I haven't been in this, the "General Skepticism" part of the JREF board in a couple of weeks, and so had not seen this thread until KellyJ won the February Language award (congratulations by the way - well-deserved!).

I've just got to say how proud I am to be a part of this forum. What you people are all pulling together here, with Kelly at the helm, is nothing less than wonderful. And it will help countless more people than the StopKaz site ever will, since the topic is, sadly, something which effects far more people.

For months, I've been thinking about what I might do next, now that Kaz is laying low. And a site about psychics was high on my list of possibilities.

But with Kelly's perspective and expertise, she makes this project far more credible and meaningful than it would be from a generic skeptical perspective such as mine. She obviously has the passion and drive to make it work, and with the forum gang behind her, I expect this to be a site that will really make a difference in a lot of lives.

Kelly, for you to have taken such pain and suffering and used them to fuel the positive things you do is an inspiration.

If there is anything I can do, please let me know. But it looks like you're in very capable hands already.

-RSL

I would agree! I've had a wonderful, warm welcome, and more help than I'd dreamed of. I didn't know what kind of response I might get, but everyone pitched in and provided valuable information to help with the series. Not only that, but the project also blossomed into a future website.

You are more than welcome to write a guest post on the series, or provide a quote if you'd like. I can also use help with gathering up the best of the best of articles about psychics and missing people for the website.

I am still strongly considering adding a forum to the site and having it moderated by the gentle persuasions of several here who have stepped forward and indicated an interest.

One of my favorite quotes:

"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go.” T.S. Elliot

We're stronger working together. :)

[Kelly]

Kelly, this man's kung fu is too strong for charlatans. If you need someone to nail a psychic to the wall, this is your guy. Someone like that Nolte character is right up his alley. In fact, when I read your blog entry about her and the claims she made (related to Nick Nolte), I immediately thought of RSL and Kaz DeMille and her similar claims.

Great article, Luke!

It will be very interesting if she gets wind of this and contacts me.

Based upon her foul mouth in the news article, I doubt it would be pretty.

[Azrael 5]

Here we go with another...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803388.stm

[chillzero]

Here we go with another...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803388.stm

For those who don't know, this is Diane Lazarus - the "winner" of the UK program 'Britain's Psychic Challenge' mentioned before. Her website claims much success in missing persons cases.

However, although it is probably pretty obvious that a person leaving a bar on New Year's Day located next to the docks is likely to have fallen into the water and perished, I find it interesting that the mother prefers to cling to the hope that her son is still alive, and she doesn't actually seem to comment either way on Diane's abilities.

Diane's comments were pretty specific, so I am interested to see how this turns out. The whole thing makes me quite angry, as she was also quite graphic.

[chillzero]

On further reading, Diane took the mother out on a boat, and covered the same area that the police have just spent 2 weeks diving in.
Grasping.

[chillzero]

Inspired by Luke T I decided to write to the BBC about the article:

In your report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803686.stm

You state "Diane Lazarus has helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people.".

I feel this is misleading, and should require firmer journalistic handling. At the least, you should state that :"Diane Lazarus claims to have helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people."

There is no documented evidence, anywhere, that any missing person case has been solved by a psychic. When a psychic claims to have helped the police, this is usually in the form of providing "information" - often unverifiable, or vague. The implication is that the BBC supports the use of psychics in locating missing people, when the focus should be on the legitimate efforts of the police. This particular family claim the police have not done enough, and I feel a report on why they feel that - what the police have contributed, and what operational restrictions the police come under - would be much more informative and constructive to others in the same unfortunate position.

I wonder if you will follow this report up with information should Mr Kelly ever re-appear, with a view to verifying any information against what Diane Lazarus said - precise details only. I don't believe any information has been provided that could not have been guessed at by any reasonable person - that he fell in the water, being between a bar and the docks, on a celebratory holiday. I trust that if he turns up alive - and I sincerely hope he does - that you will revisit this report with another, giving the balancing case when the psychic was clearly wrong. People never seem to be given that kind of information - only vague anecdotes of when they were supposedly correct.

I'll let you know if they respond.

[Kelly]

Inspired by Luke T I decided to write to the BBC about the article:

I'll let you know if they respond.

Excellent letter, C! I await their response.

[Darat]

Inspired by Luke T I decided to write to the BBC about the article:



I'll let you know if they respond.


I've sent one as well:


In the story you state "Diane Lazarus has helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people."

Yet there is no evidence at all that I can find that Diane Lazarus has ever helped police find any missing person ever. It appears you have merely used a claim she has made without any fact checking. (As far as I am aware there is not one police force in the UK that gives credit to any "psychic" for ever finding any missing person.)

Diane Lazarus may claim that she has "helped" police however since the police are obligated to look into any possible lead anyone can claim they have “helped” the police even if they have only ever spoken to a police officer during the course of an investigation!

However anyone reading your article would come away with the impression that it is a fact that Diane Lazarus has indeed found missing people, surely this is very misleading in a news report?

[Kelly]

The more the merrier. Hopefully, it will force a response out of them. Thanks, Darat.

[Azrael 5]

Well I emailed Diane Lazarus a few times to no avail.But then who expects any less?

[Luke T.]

The more the merrier. Hopefully, it will force a response out of them. Thanks, Darat.

Merrier it is then. Paraphrased some of the article I wrote and tailored it to the situation. My email to them:

I am commenting on your story about a psychic being used to locate a missing person that you posted on your web site here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803686.stm

There are a lot of ways a news outlet can draw attention to a missing person case. For example, they can publish the missing person’s photos, give all the details of the disappearance that are known, and interview the police to see what progress has been made. Stick to the facts. With any luck, such a report might trigger a memory in the mind of a witness in the reading audience and lead to a break in the case.

A responsible news organization does not throw the track off the missing person’s disappearance by tripping the light fantastic through the Twilight Zone, repeating what a bloodsucking predator of the grieving parents says occurred, which in all likelihood contradicts what events actually transpired, thereby discouraging witnesses from coming forward. Not when a tragedy of such terrible proportions is at stake. Such gross irresponsibility is beyond the pale.

But that is precisely what you chose to do.

You are giving this psychic predator credibility with the BBC name, and diminishing your credibility with her name.

You are a part of the problem. You are greasing the skids for these creeps to help push people into deeper despair.

Shame, shame, shame on you.

[Ducky]

Sorry about the domain name. I got a call in a while back and was sidetracked. I will call again, and hope they let me change it. If not, I will register the second one and point them both at the website.

Sorry!

*mumbles something about needing a clone to help with all the bloody work...

[Kelly]

Sorry about the domain name. I got a call in a while back and was sidetracked. I will call again, and hope they let me change it. If not, I will register the second one and point them both at the website.

Sorry!

*mumbles something about needing a clone to help with all the bloody work...

That's ok. If there is one lesson I've learned in all of this, it is patience. Good thing come to those who wait, as they say.

I'm not done with my part either, so no guilt.

I am entirely grateful to have all the help!

Kelly :)

[Mr. Stick]

.... it is probably pretty obvious that a person leaving a bar on New Year's Day located next to the docks is likely to have fallen into the water and perished ......
There was a quite similar case in the danish town Odense, where a young man went missing and was later found in the water, although the initial search failed to find him. In this case, however, the psychic that came forward didn't state the obvious, but instead claimed that the man had been abducted, and was held captive in a basement somewhere in town!
This resulted in his friends starting their own search, even waking up a caretaker in the middle of the night to search a building. All this commotion scared the town, of course, but when it was all over, the psychic didn't think she had done anything wrong! :mad:
It's at least a year ago I heard the story in a radio broadcast, and it was also available as a streamed broadcast. Unfortunately I can't seem to find it anymore. :( The program was about the use of psychics by the police, and whether they should put manpower into investigating psychic claims. I've contemplated writing a post about this case, so if anybody has a link to the broadcast, it'll be most appreciated. (It was from DR, most likely P1)

[Gr8wight]

Paige's Page: 30th Skeptics' Circle (http://paiges-page.net/2006_03_01_archive.html#114246735118295231)

This is the Skeptics' Circle I mentioned earlier, a regular 'blog carnival' on skeptical topics. This week's host led off with Kelly's item.

[Kelly]

Paige's Page: 30th Skeptics' Circle (http://paiges-page.net/2006_03_01_archive.html#114246735118295231)

This is the Skeptics' Circle I mentioned earlier, a regular 'blog carnival' on skeptical topics. This week's host led off with Kelly's item.

Thank you!

An another round of good exposure. I sent them an email to thank them.

[CFLarsen]

KellyJ,

Check your PM.

[Kelly]

Our very own chillzero is featured on the blog series today. She tells the story of how she came to rational thinking, and she also does a very good job of addressing the families of the missing in relationship to using psychics.

Thank you, chillzero!

Kelly

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Kelly]

Poetic justice alert!

I just received a call from the Fxxxxxxxx Scholarship folks in Washington, DC. They read yesterday's blog entry about "The Guarantee?" and they are very upset.

They are not upset with me, but with Diego and what he did. At the time, University Police only gave him a slap on the hands, but the Fxxxxxx folks are ticked off and want to take it further. They said his priveliges/Visa could be revoked, depending upon what the university decides to do.

I xxx'd out part of the scholarship name, since they do searches on it daily, and I don't want them poking around. I offered to delete their name from the blog, but they were ok with it staying.

I think they were pretty shocked to have uncovered this. I told them frankly that I thought the U should confiscate his PC and make sure he did not attempt it again or actually scam someone. I hope they do that. I did ask them to let me know what happens.

So, after all this time, perhaps justice will be served.

Thanks for listening.

[Spidey13]

Kelly, be sure to update us on what, if anything, happens to this guy. I read the blog and noticed that, even though you wrote "University of XXXXXX in XXXXX, KY, you provided a link to the actual university. :o

Anyway, since XXXXX, KY is where I live, I'd like to know if anything happens to him.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Q:How many psychic detectives does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: 1000. 989 to grope around in the dark looking for the darn thing, 1 to be lead by a police officer to the bulb and watch her screw it in, and 10 to crow in the media about how they helped solve the Case of the Unscrewed-In Light Bulb.

Okay, so maybe light bulb jokes aren’t the most appropriate vehicle for your series, but sometimes a single light bulb joke can do more than 20 pages of irrefutable logic.

Or maybe I’m just looking for a belated excuse to say how I, like everyone else, am gladdened by your participation in this forum and by all the good work you do.;) (especially loved the Diego entry)

[chillzero]

Inspired by Luke T I decided to write to the BBC about the article:

In your report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803686.stm

You state "Diane Lazarus has helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people.".
....

I'll let you know if they respond.

John Jackson alerted me to the fact that the wording of this article has now been altered. It now reads:
"Diane Lazarus has previously been involved in attempts to find missing people. "

[Kelly]

Kelly, be sure to update us on what, if anything, happens to this guy. I read the blog and noticed that, even though you wrote "University of XXXXXX in XXXXX, KY, you provided a link to the actual university. :o

Anyway, since XXXXX, KY is where I live, I'd like to know if anything happens to him.

That is hilarious! I thought I cleaned that out so there was no clear reference to the actual location. The Fxxxxxx Scholarship people were able to figure it out because apparently he was the only Diego in KY with that privelege.

The woman from Fxxxx promised to let me know what happens to the scumbag. The reason that I did not make it 100% clear who he is, is because of a bit of nervousness when dealing with people from foreign countries. YOu never know what is their take on respect for life.

Note to self: Get more sleep. Either that, or don't post when half alseep. :D

[Kelly]

John Jackson alerted me to the fact that the wording of this article has now been altered. It now reads:
"Diane Lazarus has previously been involved in attempts to find missing people. "

Aw...backing down, I see.

[Kelly]

Okay, so maybe light bulb jokes aren’t the most appropriate vehicle for your series, but sometimes a single light bulb joke can do more than 20 pages of irrefutable logic.

Or maybe I’m just looking for a belated excuse to say how I, like everyone else, am gladdened by your participation in this forum and by all the good work you do.;) (especially loved the Diego entry)

HI Ryan, and thank you.

I'm glad you liked the Diego entry. I never dreamed something would come of that one, and so quickly!

Good joke, and so true. It may bear repeating.

[Roadtoad]

Kelly, be sure to update us on what, if anything, happens to this guy. I read the blog and noticed that, even though you wrote "University of XXXXXX in XXXXX, KY, you provided a link to the actual university. :o

Anyway, since XXXXX, KY is where I live, I'd like to know if anything happens to him.

Something damned well ought to. Enough is enough. This creep, while on a scholarship, is trying to bilk money from innocent people who are suffering.

His scholarship ought to be revoked, he ought to be sent home, and he ought to be barred from returning to this country. Bastard.

[Kelly]

Something damned well ought to. Enough is enough. This creep, while on a scholarship, is trying to bilk money from innocent people who are suffering.

His scholarship ought to be revoked, he ought to be sent home, and he ought to be barred from returning to this country. Bastard.

I don't know anything about the Fxxxxx Scholarship, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the money does come from taxes.

He already has his PHD, the woman told me. :(

RT: Why don't you just head on down there and make some carefully placed treadmarks?

If you hear on the news that I was shot and killed, you'll know why. (dramatic music plays)

[Mr. Stick]

Our very own chillzero is featured on the blog series today. She tells the story of how she came to rational thinking, and she also does a very good job of addressing the families of the missing in relationship to using psychics.

Thank you, chillzero!

Kelly

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/
Excellent piece by chillzero. Very informative and well written. The part about how you can unconciously use cold reading was very interesting.

[Kelly]

I'd love to get another one of these arranged:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9511/sting.html

[John Jackson]

Excellent piece by chillzero. Very informative and well written. The part about how you can unconciously use cold reading was very interesting.
I'd like to second that sentiment.

Chillzero's article was an enlightening piece that will serve to not only inform people who are unfortunately in this terrible situation, but also self-professed psychics who (genuinely) think that they can help in these situations and skeptics who need to understand more deeply why certain people think they can genuinely help.

Congratulations chillzero for an excellent piece, and congratulations also to KellyJ for setting up such an important project. Truly inspiring work.

John

[Mid]

That is hilarious! I thought I cleaned that out so there was no clear reference to the actual location. The Fxxxxxx Scholarship people were able to figure it out because apparently he was the only Diego in KY with that privelege.

The woman from Fxxxx promised to let me know what happens to the scumbag. The reason that I did not make it 100% clear who he is, is because of a bit of nervousness when dealing with people from foreign countries. YOu never know what is their take on respect for life.

Note to self: Get more sleep. Either that, or don't post when half alseep. :D

Hi Kelly,

I haven't posted before in this thread as I didn't think I had anything to add but I just want to say I'm very impressed with everything you're doing over there. Also, I thought I'd just give you a heads up that although you've now blanked out the link and if you click on it it goes to no where if you hover over the link you can still see the universities web address, I'm not sure whether this was your intention or not but incase it wasn't I thought I'd let you know

[Gr8wight]

Given a burned-out light bulb...

Psychic: "I'm getting an impression of height, an impression of reaching up, as if to a ceiling..."

Homeowner: "No, it wasn't a ceiling light."

Psychic: "No, it was a table lamp. Like I said, elevated above the floor."

Homeowner: "No, it wasn't a table lamp."

Psychic: "As I said, it was near a table...one of those free standing floor lamps..."

Homeowner: "No, it came from the light outside my front door."

Psychic: "Exactly as I said; it was above your head."

The next day the psychic's website is updated to include the claim: Assisted homeowner in emergency bulb replacement.

[Kelly]

Hi Kelly,

I haven't posted before in this thread as I didn't think I had anything to add but I just want to say I'm very impressed with everything you're doing over there. Also, I thought I'd just give you a heads up that although you've now blanked out the link and if you click on it it goes to no where if you hover over the link you can still see the universities web address, I'm not sure whether this was your intention or not but incase it wasn't I thought I'd let you know

Hi Mid...cute monkey by the way.

Thanks for letting me know about that. It was not intentional. I find it strange that it would still show the website with a mouseover...oh well. I removed it completely.

Thank you also for your kind words. :)

[Kelly]

The next day the psychic's website is updated to include the claim: Assisted homeowner in emergency bulb replacement.

Funny, but true. Perhaps using humor like this might reach someone out there. I can only try.

[Dr Adequate]

That is hilarious! I thought I cleaned that out so there was no clear reference to the actual location. The Fxxxxxx Scholarship people were able to figure it out because apparently he was the only Diego in KY with that privelege.

The woman from Fxxxx promised to let me know what happens to the scumbag... Hi. I'm obviously going to have to do a lot of research to find out what's going on.

However, I might generally point out that doing product recall usually builds brand confidence. It would be good for these Fxxxxxxxx people if they took swift and immediate action (as they seem to be doing) and you credit them for it on your blog, and if they don't know this you might point it out to them.

Could I say again, keep me posted for any new links for the SkepticWiki article. I recall that KellyJ liked the "Crime Professionals Against Fraud" website more than my SkepticWiki article. In a way, KJ, you're right: first hand testimony is best. That's why I went wild over that article and put it first in the links for Psychic Detectives. But in another way you're wrong --- because the SkepticWiki article linked to that article, just as it links to your blog and the Klaas foundation. And will link to psychicpredators.com.

Do keep me up to date. Thanks.

[Kelly]

Hi. I'm obviously going to have to do a lot of research to find out what's going on.

However, I might generally point out that doing product recall usually builds brand confidence. It would be good for these Fxxxxxxxx people if they took swift and immediate action (as they seem to be doing) and you credit them for it on your blog, and if they don't know this you might point it out to them.

Could I say again, keep me posted for any new links for the SkepticWiki article. I recall that KellyJ liked the "Crime Professionals Against Fraud" website more than my SkepticWiki article. In a way, KJ, you're right: first hand testimony is best. That's why I went wild over that article and put it first in the links for Psychic Detectives. But in another way you're wrong --- because the SkepticWiki article linked to that article, just as it links to your blog and the Klaas foundation. And will link to psychicpredators.com.

Do keep me up to date. Thanks.

What are you going to have to do alot of research on, specifically? Do you mean our pal, Diego?

I am quite sure I saved the F woman's vm msg to me. Once I return from my next trip, if I have not heard from her, I will call her for an update. She did say that she has my email, etc. (Obviously, they checked me out, too.)

Now that I again look at the SkepticWiki page, it is an excellent one stop "shopping" for this specific issue. I bookmarked it and will utilize it in upcoming blog entries if that's ok with you.

Thanks for the reminder on KlassKids. I'm going to email Marc directly about his blog submission and see if he's going to be able to do it.

Kelly

[Kelly]

For those who like to email reporters who promote psychics, here's an article I ran across: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA031906.01B.psychic_search.2fca8eb.html

[Roadtoad]

Crap.

If only these people would quit wasting the time of the police and themselves. I realize the police feel an "obligation," but if it were me, I'd insist the psychics be kept OUT of any investigation. Let THEM spend their time and money chasing the false leads.

[Gr8wight]

Actually, that article does seem pretty balanced. It reports that there has been activity based on the psychic's involvement, but it also quotes the police representative as being a skeptic, and saying that psychics' claims do not pan out any more often than chance would have one expect, but that the police are reluctant to pass on any tips. Perhaps any e-mails we send should simply excourage the reporter to follow the story and write a follow up article pointing out that the psychic's suggestions were worthless.

[Jon.]

From the story:

By her side was Luis Lopez, 22, Fuentes' nephew and godson.


"It doesn't matter how ridiculous it sounds," Lopez said. "A clue's a clue."


In an investigation that so far has led nowhere, Engleman's clues — and perhaps her savvy computer skills — have at the very least staved off despair in some of Fuentes' loved ones.


"It's a complete mystery, but we haven't given up hope yet," said Arthur Gomez, 45, Fuentes' brother.


He said his little sister's disappearance has made him a believer.


This is the true sadness in this story. The "clues" provided by the psychic have led exactly nowhere, but this poor family member, desperate for something, anything, that might lead to the return of his sister, clutches at the straw offered by the psychic, to the point where he will "believe", because he needs to.


It makes me very, very sad.

[Kelly]

I was pleased to see the story did at least present a voice of reason, however, when it ends with the family member expressing belief, which is indeed sad, that almost trumps the skeptic aspect of things.

I do agree with Gr8wight that it would be more prudent to encourage the reporter to follow up.

[chillzero]

Well,
I have sent out some queries about police using psychics, and will let you know any responses I get.

I was chatting with my other half last night, and a point came up that I don't think I have put across here yet.

I used to believe I 'knew' things. I had ideas about where to find missing people, or about murder cases. My partner at the time felt I should contact the families to let them know what I 'knew'. I refused, because I wanted to keep a diary of what I thought the outcome would be, and match it against the actual outcomes (should I ever be able to find out), and convince myself of a 100% hitrate before I would ever risk giving a family the wrong information. No matter how convinced I was of my ability, I knew - and interestingly most psychics will easily admit - that the ability is one that comes and goes according to whatever factors (health, stress, moral dilemma, hostile environment.....) are prevalent. Why then would anyone insist in bringing this information to a family until the ability is always there 24/7 and unerring in every detail? I don't understand it.

The most I think I could have done, had my partner pressed me more, was give my 'information' to the relevant police force, and let them weigh it up as to relevance and worthiness for attention. I would never impose on a family in such a situation. The place they find themselves is so distressing and so personal that I believe they should be supported, and respected. Never imposed upon.

[Kelly]

Thanks for continuing with the research, C.

Perhaps I should edit your posted story and add that you were encouraged to "help" families of the missing. I'm so glad your ethics prevented you from taking that step. Like you, I would agree for psyhics to let police discern who is a crackpot and who is not. Thank you for your honesty.

[The_Fire]

Well,
I have sent out some queries about police using psychics, and will let you know any responses I get.

Speaking off...I just had an idea: With the amount of nationalities we have here on the board, it would be possible to contact police forces in a lot of countries and get their statistics as well.
That would make a broadside against the claims of not only american psychics but also those from other countries. I have personally come up against an australian whom more or less refused to acknowledge that australia have the same problems with these frauds as the US.....

edit: spelling mishap. and another one....

[Kelly]

Luke T.'s story is now posted on the blog:

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/32306-pmp-but-news-said-psychics-are.html

Thank you, Luke! Excellent work.

[Luke T.]

Luke T.'s story is now posted on the blog:

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/32306-pmp-but-news-said-psychics-are.html

Thank you, Luke! Excellent work.

My pleasure.

I have sent a link to the article to the news department of the Fox affilliate mentioned in the article. I hope it is a wake-up call for them.

[Dr Adequate]

What are you going to have to do alot of research on, specifically? Do you mean our pal, Diego?

I am quite sure I saved the F woman's vm msg to me. Well there you go again ... "the F woman" ... "our pal Diego" ... any minute know someone with a heavy Russian accent is going to sidle up to me and whisper "the grey owl flies at midnight ... the badger wants his cheese".

Now that I again look at the SkepticWiki page, it is an excellent one stop "shopping" for this specific issue. Cool ... that's just what dr kitten said the SW should be when it was started ... "a one-stop shop for all your skeptical needs."

I bookmarked it and will utilize it in upcoming blog entries if that's ok with you. Well of course ... it's what the SWiki's there for.

I've linked Luke's article --- twice, actually, 'cos it's the only skeptical take on Nancy Myer that I've been able to find. The bit about the car is excellent --- it shows that she's a Hot Reading fraud.

---------

About policemen --- we used to have a couple on these forums ... Stumpy and Hannibal ... back during Lucianarchy's reign of terror. They no longer actively post, but perhaps a PM would get them involved --- it's worth a shot. I'd do it myself, except that they wouldn't remember me, but someone such as Luke T or CFLarsen might give it a shot.

[Luke T.]

I've linked Luke's article --- twice, actually, 'cos it's the only skeptical take on Nancy Myer that I've been able to find. The bit about the car is excellent --- it shows that she's a Hot Reading fraud.

Yay!

About policemen --- we used to have a couple on these forums ... Stumpy and Hannibal ... back during Lucianarchy's reign of terror. They no longer actively post, but perhaps a PM would get them involved --- it's worth a shot. I'd do it myself, except that they wouldn't remember me, but someone such as Luke T or CFLarsen might give it a shot.

We still have Andalyn. He's a policeman as well, and has been a member of this forum for years, and is still active here. I've PM'd him to ask him join us in this topic.

[Luke T.]

Wow. I just read The Business of Preying (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/31706-pmp-business-of-preying.html), and my temper is flaring.

One really great part:

On one occasion a psychic contacted Paula, Billy’s sister, and said “For $225.00, I will find your brother." Paula's answer was very commendable; she replied" there is a $15,000 reward out for the return or recovery of my brother, find him and the money is yours." Her reply was "I don't do business like that."

This is really, really great stuff. Every journalism student in the world should be required to read it.

[elaine]

Wow. I just read The Business of Preying (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/31706-pmp-business-of-preying.html), and my temper is flaring.

One really great part:



This is really, really great stuff. Every journalism student in the world should be required to read it.

My temper will start flaring, after I stop crying for the family. Like they aren't going through enough.

[Dr Adequate]

We still have Andalyn. He's a policeman as well, and has been a member of this forum for years, and is still active here. I've PM'd him to ask him join us in this topic. Looking at the posting histories of Stumpy and Hannibal, it seems like Hannibal lost the desire to post, or possibly the will to live, as a result of Lucianarchy's repulsive behavior --- and hasn't been seen since Feb '04. Stumpy, OTOH, only ever posted every few months anyway --- last seen last September. He may well be contactable.

It's worth a go. I'll PM them --- it's not as though I'm asking them a personal favor.

[Katachresis]

I am toying with the idea of contacting one of my cousins. He has been a detective in a suburban city for over 25 years. I fear broaching the subject with him. The next time we are together, I will feel him out, get some general impressions. I doubt I could ask him for contributions here, but at least get an idea about what he thinks about the subject.

[Kelly]

Hello all,

I did ask Janice Smolinski if she would name any of the psychics, but apparently she did not feel comfortable doing so. I will be meeting her this weekend in NC, and I plan on asking her about this. Wouldn't it be lovely to stop that wretched person in her tracks?

That would be a good idea to bring in some policemen who have experience in this area. I would love to hear their take on it.

For those who do not know, I will be away starting tomorrow morning through Monday. I'll be in Wilmington, NC, for the 2nd annual Cue Center conference, which is a gathering of organizations, such as ours, and family members of missing persons. I'll be speaking on Saturday night at the National Candlelight Vigil, held in downtown Wilmington, near the Cape Fear River.

I'm not sure how much internet time I will have while there, so I will be scarse around these parts.

If any psychics come looking for me, tell them they have the wrong number for me, but that we have their number. ;)

Thanks, everyone, for everything.

Kelly

[Luke T.]

After Kelly placed my article about Nancy Myer and KPTV on her site, I emailed KPTV to let them know about it. I just got an email from the reporter who did the story:

Thank you for the link. Very interesting article.
We appreciate your feedback.
Take care and hope to hear from you again.

And that is it.

:)

[elaine]

Kelly,

Last week, the Denver Post had this article regarding a medium that moved to the area. A very one-sided and pro psychic article.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3602480

I would like to add to what this letter writer wrote in today's (March 26th)paper, using Kelly as a for instance.

http://www.denverpost.com/letters

First of all, is this okay with you? And secondly, assuming it is, any input from the forum would be greatly appreciated. I don't write as clearly and precisely as I'd like.

Here is a rough draft

I read with interest, the March 19th article 'Spiritual Medium At Large' . And like Mr. Barnhart, am very disappointed in the lack of balance and skepticism in the article. The letter writer is correct in his comments regarding cold reading. In the spirit of good reporting, I would like to suggest to the editors a follow-up article, discussing cold reading techniques and perhaps interviewing someone like Kelly Jolkowski of http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com, regarding her experiences with well-intentioned mediums.


Thanks!

[dubious]

Kelly,you have my deepest sympathy and utmost admiration for your courage.
Definition of the 'supernatural. "the most extraordinary claims made by the ordinary of people.
Do not relant to the onslaught of delusional believers you will confront.
Your cause is a noble one.
Kindest regards.

[elaine]

Thank you, Kelly, for the ok to use your name and website in my letter to the Denver Post editor. I made a couple of small changes. We'll see if they print it.

[Kelly]

Hi all,

I'm back from my trip, but it looks like it's going to take me several days to catch up on things. I still wanted to pop in and express my thanks.

That's too bad that you only received a form response, Luke T, but it's always possible that your article did have an impact, one that this author is not revealing.

Thanks, Elaine, for writing to the Denver Post. Working together, we can make a difference for someone.

At the conference, the blog series was a topic of several conversations. One man said that someone came to him about psychics, and he pointed them to the series. That person came back to him, apologized, indicating she had no idea, but that now she knows better.

[ysabella]

At the conference, the blog series was a topic of several conversations. One man said that someone came to him about psychics, and he pointed them to the series. That person came back to him, apologized, indicating she had no idea, but that now she knows better.

Hooray! Result!! :bananapartyhat:

[elaine]

sorry double post

[elaine]

Hi all,

I'm back from my trip, but it looks like it's going to take me several days to catch up on things. I still wanted to pop in and express my thanks.

That's too bad that you only received a form response, Luke T, but it's always possible that your article did have an impact, one that this author is not revealing.

Thanks, Elaine, for writing to the Denver Post. Working together, we can make a difference for someone.

At the conference, the blog series was a topic of several conversations. One man said that someone came to him about psychics, and he pointed them to the series. That person came back to him, apologized, indicating she had no idea, but that now she knows better.


Very cool, about the blog experience at the conference.

Regarding the letter to the Post, I wish I had read the article when it came out last week. Sending a response earlier would have helped, I'm sure. Another forum user pm'd me the reporter's email address. I'm sending her a version of the letter. If anything comes of it, I'll let everyone know.

[prewitt81]

I just received a letter from "psychic" Skye Alexander http://www.skyealexander.com/ in which she claims that she "help[s] police across the United States solve homicides, missing person, and suicide cases."

My gut reaction is to send her an email pointing her to the soon-to-be psychicpredators.com, but I'm guessing that she'll just delete it and send my address to spam harvesters. Any ideas on how to proceed? Once the website is up, I won't have a problem contacting her if we have official email addresses. Honestly, I delete a lot of spam anyways, and might just fire one off to her while I'm still hot about it.

[Ducky]

I just received a letter from "psychic" Skye Alexander http://www.skyealexander.com/ in which she claims that she "help[s] police across the United States solve homicides, missing person, and suicide cases."

My gut reaction is to send her an email pointing her to the soon-to-be psychicpredators.com, but I'm guessing that she'll just delete it and send my address to spam harvesters. Any ideas on how to proceed? Once the website is up, I won't have a problem contacting her if we have official email addresses. Honestly, I delete a lot of spam anyways, and might just fire one off to her while I'm still hot about it.


Ask Skye what exactly needs to be solved about a suicide? It's one of the few death investigations in which the victim and the perpetrator are readily apparent.

[prewitt81]

Ask Skye what exactly needs to be solved about a suicide? It's one of the few death investigations in which the victim and the perpetrator are readily apparent.

I would guess, there, that she probably engages in the normal scumbaggery and gives false reasons for the suicide, and assurances that the "departed soul" is in a better place.

[Ducky]

I would guess, there, that she probably engages in the normal scumbaggery and gives false reasons for the suicide, and assurances that the "departed soul" is in a better place.


Which is a despicable tactic, and had anyone purportedly done that to me or my family after my father's suicide, I would have kicked them right in the genitals.

I say we get this one. Email her back and ask for a specific cop to reference in each case seh has worked on so that you can "verify her credentials before making any decisions on soliciting her services." See if she even returns one cop's name.

[prewitt81]

Which is a despicable tactic, and had anyone purportedly done that to me or my family after my father's suicide, I would have kicked them right in the genitals.

I say we get this one. Email her back and ask for a specific cop to reference in each case seh has worked on so that you can "verify her credentials before making any decisions on soliciting her services." See if she even returns one cop's name.

I'm on it. I'll start a new thread with any replies I receive.

[Kelly]

HI Prewitt...good to see you again.

Besides the usual comments, I can honestly say that this woman, Syke, has the spookiest eyes.

Thanks for the prompt attention to this matter. She's pretty vague about her "accomplishments", but that's not a surprise.

[Gr8wight]

Which is a despicable tactic, and had anyone purportedly done that to me or my family after my father's suicide, I would have kicked them right in the genitals.

I say we get this one. Email her back and ask for a specific cop to reference in each case seh has worked on so that you can "verify her credentials before making any decisions on soliciting her services." See if she even returns one cop's name.

About a year ago I sent emails to several psychics whose websites claimed they had participated with police. I asked them to provide details of exactly which police forces they had been involved with. Only one of them deigned to reply to me, and his response was twofold:

1) He named a general geographic area is which he had allegedly worked, but did not name a specific law enforcement agency.

2) He told me that most police forces will deny having worked with psychics when asked, even if they had done so.

Pretty much the response I expected.

[Mr. Stick]

I just received a letter from "psychic" Skye Alexander http://www.skyealexander.com/ in which she claims that she "help[s] police across the United States solve homicides, missing person, and suicide cases."

Just out of curiosity: Why did you receive such a letter?

[prewitt81]

Just out of curiosity: Why did you receive such a letter?

It was a mass-mailing, apparently.

[Kelly]

The epitome of junk mail.

Hello Gr8wight

[CFLarsen]

About a year ago I sent emails to several psychics whose websites claimed they had participated with police. I asked them to provide details of exactly which police forces they had been involved with. Only one of them deigned to reply to me, and his response was twofold:

1) He named a general geographic area is which he had allegedly worked, but did not name a specific law enforcement agency.

2) He told me that most police forces will deny having worked with psychics when asked, even if they had done so.

Pretty much the response I expected.
Still got the names of those psychics?

Keep documentation.

[rjh01]

If you are worried that someone may send you spam after you send them e-mails, create a new e-mail account and use that. There are several organisations that will create e-mail accounts for you. If you then receive spam you can abandon it.

[Kelly]

Let the Sylvia Browne stories begin.

I can sleep at night. I don't know how she can.

[Ducky]

Let the Sylvia Browne stories begin.

I can sleep at night. I don't know how she can.


It's 2:40 in the morning. If you can sleep, then do so!!!


As for Sylvia, I hear she eats babies. Raw.

[Gr8wight]

Still got the names of those psychics?

Keep documentation.

Unfortunately, that information is securely stored on the defective hard drive of my previous computer.

[prewitt81]

If you are worried that someone may send you spam after you send them e-mails, create a new e-mail account and use that. There are several organisations that will create e-mail accounts for you. If you then receive spam you can abandon it.

Yeah, I ended up going with an anonymous email address. We'll see how it goes.

[CFLarsen]

Unfortunately, that information is securely stored on the defective hard drive of my previous computer.
Tsk, tsk...

[Luke T.]

Thought you all might be interested in hearing what happened to a co-worker's niece a couple weeks ago.

We were just talking about myspace.com and what an evil little web site it is on SkepticalCommunity and it prompted me to tell the story. I've been thinking about posting it here ever since it happened, but just never got around to it.

Anyway.

Here's pretty much what I posted on SC:

A niece of a co-worker was recently (couple weeks ago) nearly kidnapped by a guy she met on myspace. It was only through quick action on my coworker's part that she was rescued at the last possible moment.

Typical clueless problem child teenager. This guy tells her he's the member of a grunge band and a recruiter for Hollywood movies. Promises her he can get her into a movie in California and she will make $600,000.

She was disowned by her parents and living in an apartment with a 34 year old woman. Fortunately, this woman was on her game and started checking a lot of this guy's claims on the internet and showed the kid he was lying. One particular claim was about being a member of a band, which he named. He said they were a California band, and the roommate found it was a real band, only out of Pennsylvania. Other stuff like that wasn't adding up.

But the kid didn't want to hear it. So she tells the guy to come to her town and she will meet him and leave town with him. She quits her grocery store job and tells her roommate she is leaving.

The guy arrives by bus. Yeah. Big picture Hollywood man comes in on a bus. He then tells her he lost his driver's license and money and she has to pay for their hotel room. Yeah. Big picture Hollywood man has no money or identification proving he is who he says he is.

So she wants to stay in town until she can pick up her last grocery store paycheck before they run off to California together. And this is what probably saved her life, because while this was going on, the now ex-roommate has alerted the family, who seem apathetic after all the crap they have had to put up with from her, except for her uncle, my co-worker.

Somewhere along the line, the roommate had challenged this creep on the phone. And during the conversation, he said, "Why aren't you dead?" This was enough for my co-worker to go to the police, and for the police to go after him for threatening bodily harm when he came to town.

Her uncle (my co-worker) was able to track her location because his niece had told the grocery store where she would be.

So the cop goes with my coworker to the hotel and they knock on the door. At first the policeman says nothing as the uncle talks to his niece through the door. But they won't open it. So uncle asks the cop, "Can't you do something?" So the policeman says, "This is the police!", and the big picture Hollywood recruiter grunge band member bolts from the room and jumps out the back window, much to the shock and amazement of the idiot kid.

[Luke T.]

Unfortunately, the bad guy got away and the only person who has seen his face is the niece.

[Dr Adequate]

Let the Sylvia Browne stories begin.

I can sleep at night. I don't know how she can.Cold readers don't necessarily know that they're doing it.

I've only seen two kinds of ex-psychics. One sort says "Yes, I was Hot Reading, I'm a fraud." The other sort says "I was Cold Reading, and I had no idea."

One of the latter category is our very own poster Nex.

But I've never seen anyone say "I was cold reading and I knew it." Now I think about it, the reason for this is obvious --- a deliberate fraud wouldn't confine himself / herself to cold reading --- they'd always do it hot if they could.

If cold readers can fool an audience, and they can, then they can fool themselves.

[Hagrok]

Unfortunately, the bad guy got away and the only person who has seen his face is the niece.
Bet his fingerprints are in a database somewhere...

[Luke T.]

Bet his fingerprints are in a database somewhere...

That's what I was thinking. I said as much to my co-worker, but I can't recall what his reply was. I don't know if they lifted fingerprints or not.

[Luke T.]

But I've never seen anyone say "I was cold reading and I knew it." Now I think about it, the reason for this is obvious --- a deliberate fraud wouldn't confine himself / herself to cold reading --- they'd always do it hot if they could.

The Psychic Mafia (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573921610/102-9590912-6387318?v=glance&n=283155) bears this out. A good read on the tricks the author and his cohorts pulled as deliberately fraudulent psychics to make their readings as hot as possible.

[Mr. Stick]

Cold readers don't necessarily know that they're doing it. ........

But I've never seen anyone say "I was cold reading and I knew it." Now I think about it, the reason for this is obvious --- a deliberate fraud wouldn't confine himself / herself to cold reading --- they'd always do it hot if they could.

Does Sylvia Brown and others of her class not use cold reading? Are they not frauds?
The impression I get from stage performers claiming to talk to the dead, is that they are very well aware what they are doing, and they talk to people all the time without prior knowledge.
If they used hot reading they would do much better than they do. :rolleyes:

[Luke T.]

Does Sylvia Brown and others of her class not use cold reading? Are they not frauds?
The impression I get from stage performers claiming to talk to the dead, is that they are very well aware what they are doing, and they talk to people all the time without prior knowledge.
If they used hot reading they would do much better than they do. :rolleyes:

All we see are her live appearances. Spontaneous readings on people she couldn't know anything about.

We do not see her private readings with regular clients or with clients who have to give their full name and credit card number.

Read "The Psychic Mafia" to get an idea. Psychics keep records on their clients and trade that information with each other.

[Kelly]

Thank you, Luke, for presenting the story about the near disaster with the misled teenager. This happens more often than we realize.

If you are a parent of a teen, or even a pre-teen, know what they are doing, especially on the internet.

Just 2 nights ago, I had a phone interview with the mom of a missing teen from NV. She was lured away in a similar fashion. NOw she's living the life of a prostitute and is a meth user. She's only 15. Cops don't care because they say she's a "runaway". Apparently, the laws in NV are so lax that no one can effectively react to this. They even had the man in question in their hands for drug possesion, but said they couldn't charge him in relation to the girl. Of course, he did not appear at his trial.

It's a system gone mad.

Don't think it can't happen to you.

[alfaniner]

[QUOTE=Mr. Stick;1539132]Does Sylvia Brown and others of her class not use cold reading? Are they not frauds?
...[QUOTE]

I think the key word was "ex-psychics". The current frauds know full well what they are doing.

[Kelly]

I would like your opinions, please.

Would having a post on humor in my series on psychics detract from its professionalism? In this post, I would briefly discuss the need for humor in dealing with the issue, and then include some psychic jokes.

[rjh01]

Humour in the right hands can be a powerful weapon.
How about this one I just invented.

'I would like to report my son is missing.'
'Hey are you not that famous psychics who finds missing people?'
'Yes. Glad you recognise me.'

[Kelly]

Thank you for the comment and the joke.

If I decide to do this, I'll start a psychic joke thread on the Humor forum rather than have them posted here. The humor forum is an appropriate place for them.

[Dr Adequate]

I would like your opinions, please.

Would having a post on humor in my series on psychics detract from its professionalism? In this post, I would briefly discuss the need for humor in dealing with the issue, and then include some psychic jokes. It's hard to do. I make fun of everything I can, but psychics in themselves aren't funny. Their particular arguments are often funny, but the thing itself is just disgusting.