Psychics and Missing People

[Kelly]

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=6 bgcolor=#666699 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#666699 size=2>Introduction by moderator Luke T.: There are thousands upon thousands of people in our society for whom normal life has been extinguished. A son, a daughter, a mother, a father, a wife, or a husband, has disappeared without a trace. Every day is one of anguish, every night sleepless. For anyone not in it, we cannot even begin to imagine this never-ending nightmare. But for those who are living it, the despondence is such that one finds one would do anything to have their missing loved one back. A resolution.

Who would dare take advantage of these people? What low character would rush into this nightmare and stir up confusion, mislead the police in their search, extort money, and feast upon the families of missing people?

Part of what the James Randi Education Foundation is about is re-examining our pre-conceived notions. When you travel through the topic below, any pre-conceived notions you might have about psychics providing hope and good feelings, or being just harmless fun, are going to be re-examined by the mother of a missing child who somehow found the strength to rise from her despair and throw off this second wave of predators, and carry her warning to other victims and to bring attention of this continuing victimization to the rest of us.


Link to original topic: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52101

Link to blog series which resulted from this topic: http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/30606-pmp-introduction-to-psychics-and.html

edited to add: You may notice in this topic that some comments are addressed to a poster "WanderinWTF", but that there are no posts by that user in this topic. That is because some posts were edited out of the original topic and placed in a separate topic. You can see those posts here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52689
</font></td></tr></table>



Hello all,

I am the mother of a missing person and the founder of a nonprofit which assists families of the missing in the US. In my position(s), it seems like I am a magnet for all sorts of loonies claiming they want to help either solve my son's case, or solve cases of the families we serve. Frankly, I tire of it all.

The last few that came to me with their offers were told by me (in as nice of a way as I could) that when they could pass Randi's test to come back. Of course, I didn't hear anything back from them in response.

Some of the "believers" try to play on guilt in that they say people in my position should try any (legal) means possible to find their missing loved one. It is subtlely implied that if I am not willing to subject myself to this, then I must not really care about finding my son. It is a chance I should always take, I am told.

A relative paid one of these charlatans to do a "reading" with me, despite my objections. I agreed, but said I would never do it again. She paid the woman the "discounted" fee of $50, which was to include a tape of the entire ordeal. (We never did get the tape.) At that time, I had already been reading about their methods, and I refused to give her any info and play into her game. She had the audacity to then convince my mother that I "ruined" the reading because of my attitude. (I was polite to the woman. I just did not react to her probes.) As typical, when she claimed to be speaking to my son's spirit, she could not get the "spirit" to answer a simple question about one of his likes, which I then posed. After that, she started to get annoyed with me.

I have plenty of stories about these people and my own experiences with them, plus experiences of other family members of the missing. I also know behind the scenes stories about Sylvia Browne and her scamming. And, as you might expect, none of these person's case have been solved by these people.

What I want to be able to accomplish by posting here, is to have a very complete collection of links debunking the advantage takers when it comes to missing person's cases. I do have a few, such as the Carla Baron exposee and several others which are linked to this site.

Another thing which would be helpful and would probably require someone with a pyschiatry background, is to find a way to help these families who feel pressured to use psychics, to not feel guilty about refusing these offers.

And finally, I would love to find someone who is fairly well known in the debunking area, especially when it comes to missing person's cases, to do an interview for the blog I write.

Thank you.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason

[LostAngeles]

I don't know if you've visited the Skeptic's Dictionary, but I find it's a good place to start. Not only is there a ton of information (that I will get through someday), but they list further resources along with cites.

Here's their entry on psychic detectives: http://skepdic.com/psychdet.html

The Skeptic's Society has a letter to ABC news "Exposing the Errors of
ABC’s Primetime Thursday" http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-05-04.html

Here's a CSICOP article: http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-07/i-files.html

A video: http://www.csicop.org/articles/psychic-detectives/index.html

Another two articles: http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/psychic-sleuthing.html & http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/police-psychics.html

I can run a few database searches too, if you'd like, but they won't provide links. At best, I'd probably just be doing some research for you, but if you'd like, let me know.

And thank you.

[Darat]

Link to Project Jason homepage: http://www.projectjason.org/

[Kelly]

Thank you.

Yes, I am quite sure I have visited the Skeptic's Dictionary a few times. Perhaps that's where I learned about some of the methodology.

I would greatly appreciate any research that can be done with locating stories where these people were debunked in missing person's cases. I work full time and run the org full time, so I can use the help.

I will be writing a series about this on my blog in the future which will incorporate this info along with family stories, and hopefully, some commentary from experts.

I have seen far too many families hurt by this. One woman I know literally almost drove herself crazy following every "lead" on the weekends, traveling hundreds of milies for nothing. Desperation makes a person lose sight of reality. The desire to end what I call the waking nightmare, the "not knowing" takes people where they normally may not have gone. But then again, nothing is normal when you live this life.

Thanks,
Kelly

[Tricky]

That's horrible news, Kelly. I wish you all the best that science and the police can provide, and I hope your family doesn't continue to be harassed by phony psychics.

Please keep us posted on the investigation.

[Luke T.]

Welcome to the forum, Kelly.

It seems to me that you are the best source for the kind of shenanigans these "psychic detectives" pull. Perhaps you could post a collection of the kind of solicitations you get from them.

After all, these psychics claim it is the families who come to them, not vice versa. And they all like to claim they are working on missing persons cases. Anything you could do here to bring the real truth to light would be great.

Do you remember the Elizabeth Smart case? Well, there was a remote viewer organization that stuck their nose in the case, and within days of her disappearance declared her dead. And then they posted all kinds of remote viewer drawings on their site which depicted where she had been buried. They even made strong insinuations of who might be guilty of her death. You can imagine their embarassment when Elizabeth turned up alive.

Well, some of us here at JREF managed to download all of their public proclamations, photos and drawings, and everything else they published about the Smart case right before they went into damage control mode and removed all that material from their web site. Subsequently, Claus Larsen wrote an article about the whole debacle on his Skeptic Report web site, which you can read by clicking here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/psitechsmart.htm)

Also, Kelly, once a year the James Randi Educational Foundation has what is called The Amazing Meeting. At these conferences, hundreds of people attend to listen to a few days worth of lectures and presentations by skeptics from various walks of life. It sounds to me like your experience with psychic detectives might be a terrific showcase presentation.

If it isn't too much to ask, would you mind telling us of the circumstances of your son's disappearance and what has developed in the case?

edited to add: Never mind. I see Darat posted a link to your site.

[LostAngeles]

Thank you.

Yes, I am quite sure I have visited the Skeptic's Dictionary a few times. Perhaps that's where I learned about some of the methodology.

I would greatly appreciate any research that can be done with locating stories where these people were debunked in missing person's cases. I work full time and run the org full time, so I can use the help.

I will be writing a series about this on my blog in the future which will incorporate this info along with family stories, and hopefully, some commentary from experts.

I have seen far too many families hurt by this. One woman I know literally almost drove herself crazy following every "lead" on the weekends, traveling hundreds of milies for nothing. Desperation makes a person lose sight of reality. The desire to end what I call the waking nightmare, the "not knowing" takes people where they normally may not have gone. But then again, nothing is normal when you live this life.

Thanks,
Kelly

I'll try and get back to you tomorrow then or later tonight. They added a database of science journals this semester so I'm expecting the best results to come from that and not necessarily from news reports.

[LeCynthia]

As a person close to a missing person case that's also gone unsolved I can relate, however I wasn't immediate family so I was not the one the psychics came to visit. My uncle would tell the psychics if they can go out and find her then by all means, go ahead, just don't expect to get any money for it. He would politely tell them he didn't believe psychics had any ability so if they wanted to prove him wrong, go ahead. If money or reward was mentioned he would kindly direct them to ask all future questions to the detective in charge of the investigation.

I think you'll find many, many supporters here, if you need anything, just ask.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

My own mother paid one of these charlatans to do a "reading" with me, despite my objections. I agreed, but said I would never do it again. She paid the woman the "discounted" fee of $50, which was to include a tape of the entire ordeal. (We never did get the tape.)

I'm shocked that a psychic would have the audacity to charge money for their "service" in helping find a missing child. This makes me angry. I don’t want to say anymore.

LLH

[bjb]

I can think of a missing persons case involving Sylvia Browne. About ten years ago, she was on the Montel Williams show, talking about missing persons cases. One case involved that bass player from Iron Butterfly, who had gone missing a year or so earlier. Anyway, Sylvia claimed she saw him being kidnapped and taken aboard a boat. She also said he was probably dead,which seemed very cruel of her to say. A couple of years later, his remains were found:

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,4843,00.html

I don't recall any news stories about Sylvia Browne being wrong about this case, but maybe James Randi has better documentation in his files.

[Luke T.]

I'm shocked that a psychic would have the audacity to charge money for their "service" in helping find a missing child. This makes me angry. I don’t want to say anymore.

LLH

A private detective would charge money to look for a missing child.

[Kelly]

Thank you for the warm welcome. I will try to respond to the various inquiries.

I have a separate website for my son's case, but I cannot post links yet. It's a very baffling case which has eluded veteran LE and a decent pro-bono PI. A websearch on Jason Jolkowski should offer this site as 1st on the list. A websearch on my name should find the blog and numerous other stories.

I know quite a few families who went on Montel for the SB segments. She was never right once that we know of. The link for the story posted above about her does not appear to work.

LeCynthia, PM me and tell me about your missing family member.

Thanks to LostAngeles for the research and help.

LukeT: I have never approached a psychic, ever. They have all come to me or come to people who know me. I agree that I would be a good resource for sharing these stories. I have never put them on "pen and paper" but will be working on this in the next few weeks for the blog series. It was always too painful at the time, but I know it is important to help expose these people.

I heard about the Smart case and the group who made the "fatal" error. I may have even read the report about it at one point.

I would probably not be able to attend the Amazing Meeting. I'm sure it is rather enlightening on many fronts. We're a very small org and can only afford 1-2 annual trips which are educational in nature in respect to our mission statement. On a personal level, I'm a check-to-check working stiff who could not afford to pay for such a trip on my own.

Yes, I have many stories about these people. I even tried to pretend to be a gullible person in order to get some "dirt" on one of them, but in the end both LE and the FBI told me that no law was broken unless I had given them money and they had not provided the promised service. I didn't have 25K in between the couch cushions or anywhere else, so that one ended.

The last one that came to me was from a person who said they were a "dowser" but yet somehow they could "see" that a missing woman (a case we work) was being held captive in a shed somewhere. Mind you, this woman has been missing since 1986!

The "fun" never ends it seems. These people come out of the woodwork when there is a missing person.

Kelly

[Garrette]

KellyJ, I'm very very sorry for your situation and wish you only the best.

You come across as the perfect person to take this challenge on.

And regarding being unable to afford the TAM trip, I think that can be taken care of.

I personally have not been able to make the meetings due to scheduling issues, but every year there is an "Scholarship Fund" to help out worthy people who would attend but cannot because of finances. This year it paid the expenses of quite a few.

Mark it on your schedule and keep in touch. The worst case is you end up not going; the likely case is that you do. And if you feel like it, a presentation would not be amiss.

Edited to add: I take it you are in touch with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children? They have a statement on psychics never solving a missing child case. They have other resources, too, which you may be interested in. Google NCMEC. Though I'm sure you already know this.

[CurtC]

[COLOR=black] [COLOR=black]I'm shocked that a psychic would have the audacity to charge money for their "service" in helping find a missing child.He didn't say they asked for money, he just said they were told not to expect money.

[tsg]

A private detective would charge money to look for a missing child.

A private detective might be able to find a missing child.

[ysabella]

I like this statement (http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-hazards.htm) from the Klaas Kids Foundation - it reads as though Mark Klaas wrote it. He is a high-profile person and more than skeptical, as he was very angry about how one skeptic tried to use his daughter's murder for her own fame, so I wonder if he would give an interview to you sometime? He was featured on a Penn&Teller episode about ESP, also, and his part is the featured clip on the web page for that episode (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=esp).

I wish you all the best and I really would like to applaud your efforts in spreading some debunking in this area.

[Kelly]

Marc Klaas...good find. I have never met him personally, but I am friends with his right hand man. Our orgs work together now and then. I am quite sure he would participate. I did not remember that he took this stance.

I will have to look at the meeting info and place and see if I could fit it in. How does a person go about getting this scholarship?

Thanks to all,
Kelly

[CurtC]

The Skeptic's Society has a letter to ABC news "Exposing the Errors of ABC’s Primetime Thursday" http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-05-04.htmlI clicked this link, thinking it sounded interesting. Imagine my surprise when I saw that it's my own letter I wrote to ABC!

[LostAngeles]

I clicked this link, thinking it sounded interesting. Imagine my surprise when I saw that it's my own letter I wrote to ABC!

No way! Rock on!

Kelly, right now, I'm not terribly impressed with the results from this new database. I do have a pdf I got from it with an article about Psychic Detectives (the show) from Skeptic. So far, most of my results are from that and Skeptical Inquirer. I'd like to be able to offer you something a bit more... mainstream, I guess is the word. That way, when people read your post they don't dismiss it out of hand because, "Oh well, they're those bitter skeptics." or whatever.

I should have my Lexis-Nexis access back since the semester's started up again, I'll try and hit there tomorrow. If you'd like the cites for the articles for now, though (I'm not sure on the copyright issues here), let me know.

[Kelly]

That is neat, Curt.

No rush on the research, LA. I probably won't start my series for several weeks yet.

I'll take the sites, yes.

I think no matter how I write my series, there will be plenty of people who take offense to it. ("Oh my precious Sylvia" types)

[Godmode]

I certainly hope that if I ever go missing, I don't have to rely on a psychic's guess to rescue me. As far as I know, not a single person has ever been found because of a so-called psychic. When will people learn?
I applaud your standing up for what's right during this difficult time, and I truelly do hope you find your missing person alive and well. It is criminal, in my opinion, the way these scammers feed off your pain and profit from (and add to!) your emotional distraught. That is not something anybody needs.
Best wishes to you.

[DeVega]

Kelly, I am very sorry that you find yourself in such an awful situation and I hope good news comes for you and your family. I think the work you are proposing to pursue with these fraudulant leeches is very important & I wish you every good luck with it.

It would be great if you could attend a TAM - I am sure that is just what the scholarships are for & people would love to hear you.

Very best wishes

[Luke T.]

A private detective might be able to find a missing child.

I'm just saying it isn't out of line for someone who performs a "service" to charge money for it. All that is out of line is promising a service that is useless, and that is plenty enough to warrant scorn.

And a psychic who is sought out by a family to search for a missing loved one is marginally better than a psychic who hears of a missing person and then seeks out the family and offers her services. The paranormal equivalent of an "ambulance chaser." Scummiest of the scum.

And I am happy to hear the PI on KellyJ's son's case is working pro bono. Good man! Or woman, whatever the case may be.

[Luke T.]

LukeT: I have never approached a psychic, ever. They have all come to me or come to people who know me. I agree that I would be a good resource for sharing these stories. I have never put them on "pen and paper" but will be working on this in the next few weeks for the blog series. It was always too painful at the time, but I know it is important to help expose these people.

Yes, it is very important, and you are in a better position to do it than we are. Psychics deflect criticisms by skeptics by claiming they (the psychics) are caring and loving human beings helping others. You are perfectly situated to show that their "help" is not only unwanted, but also that they are nothing more than exploiters of pain and suffering who impose themselves on victims unsolicited when their sales resistance is at its lowest and their desperation highest.

[tsg]

I'm just saying it isn't out of line for someone who performs a "service" to charge money for it. All that is out of line is promising a service that is useless, and that is plenty enough to warrant scorn.

That's entirely the point. They aren't providing a service, certainly not one worth paying for. I thought it was pretty evident that's what LLH meant.

[Luke T.]

That's entirely the point. They aren't providing a service, certainly not one worth paying for. I thought it was pretty evident that's what LLH meant.

Reading back over LLH's comment with a different perspective, I see you are right.

I concluded a long time ago that psychics have no shame and that it went without saying. So from that perspective I thought LLH was saying that what was wrong was to charge victims money for anything.

I was wrong for thinking the shamelessness of psychics goes without saying. It needs to be said. Over and over and over.

[JLam]

Kelly,
I know you mentioned the Carla Baron report, but I'm not sure if you have talked to the folks who wrote it.

(For those of you who haven't read the Independent Investigations Group's devastating report on Carla Baron, you can read it here: http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html )

I'm a new member of the IIG, but I wasn't around when they did the Baron report. However, you should get in touch with them. To contact the IIG:
(323) 666-9797, ext. 159 or info@iigwest.com

I do hope you find you son one day. I can't imagine the pain you're experiencing.

And, like others said, mark your calendar for the next TAM (well, as soon as the dates are announced, anyway.) You need to be there, and the members of this board will make sure that someone like you will have anything you can't afford fully covered.

[Mariah]

Hi, Kelly J, and warmest welcome. You've started the best and most productive thread in recent memory. Let's keep it going.

To everyone: I was so pleased to discover Mark Klaas' statement on psychic detectives some time ago. And thank you, Lost Angeles, for the list of links including the one to the skeptic dictionary which I repeat here: http://skepdic.com/psychdet.html.

Am I dreaming it (well, it would be a nightmare, actually) that John Walsh of America's Most Wanted actually did a show on the psychic detectives? Someone tell me I'm wrong.

[Luke T.]

Am I dreaming it (well, it would be a nightmare, actually) that John Walsh of America's Most Wanted actually did a show on the psychic detectives? Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Sorry...


Thursday January 1, 2003
RERUN
PSYCHIC PHENOMENA: AN INSIDE LOOK
Today, we spend a fascinating hour with Dougall Fraser – a 26-year-old clairvoyant who has been a professional psychic for years. Dougall has become recognized as one of the country’s top psychics, assisting people with the loss of loved ones, relationships, prosperity, self-help, and spiritual development. During the hour, Dougall helps our guests find answers, hope, and in some cases, closure in their lives. First, Dougall tells us a little about himself and how he realized at a young age that he had a special “ability.” He then lets our viewers in on some of his celebrity predictions – who’ll stay together, who’ll break up, and who’s going to run for office. He may even have a prediction or two for you! Next, Dougall focuses on the two most popular reasons people come to see him – love and money. Dougall “reads” and advises two guests regarding their love life – Catherine & Kenya. Catherine is here because she is in a serious relationship right now and wonders if her man is “the one,” and Kenya is here because she is searching for the man of her dreams! We also have two guests that Dougall reads and advises regarding money issues – Carly & Rich. Carly is here because she’s been unemployed for several months and wants to know what she’s doing wrong. She says she is curious about the future of her career. Rich is a young actor who has reached a crossroads and is contemplating moving across the country to pursue his passion. He says he wants a hint at whether or not moving will help his career. Our hope is that Dougall delivers each of our guests some news and helpful hints that encourages them to look forward to their future. As you know, psychic shops are on just about every corner here in New York, and the majority of them are fakes. Dougall lets us in on some of these “so-called” psychics’ most commonly used ploys and tactics…and also provides tips on how to stay away from the frauds and find someone who’s legit. We actually went “undercover” before the show and had readings done at two local psychics. We find out just how accurate Dougall is and see just what happened when we sent our “spy cam” into these establishments. Later in the show, Dougall “reads” the audience and also takes specific questions from audience members looking for guidance. Dougall is truly more than the average “psychic” in that he combines his clairvoyant skills with life coaching – so he doesn’t just entertain and make predictions, he helps guide people in taking the right steps to get the results they’re looking for in life. Plus, Jennifer Stockburger, an Automotive Test Engineer for Consumer Reports, shares important tips and information on car seat safety in this week’s Keeping Families Safe segment.
Episode #102403.
A 26-year-old psychic attempts to help people find answers.
Director(s): Andy Barsh . Producer(s): Alexandra Jewett , George Davilas , Jamie Kotkin-Hammer , Michael Newport .
Original Airdate: October 24, 2003.
Clairvoyance: A True Sixth Sense
Clairvoyant Dougall Fraser answers audience questions.
John Walsh TV Listings: December 29 - January 2 2003 (http://tvtalkshows.com/board/showthread.php?t=87445)


That same day, the John Walsh Show taped a program on "Psychic Phenomena: An Inside Look," to air on October 24. Both Noreen Renier and Gary Posner were contacted for possible appearances (just imagine the drama of that confrontation!), as was CSICOP's Joe Nickell (in the event Gary couldn’t make it). However, to avoid the airfares to New York City, the show decided instead, as its website announced that week, to "spend a fascinating hour with Dougall Fraser --— a 26-year-old clairvoyant . . . one of the country’s top psychics. . . . Dougall helps our guests find answers, hope, and in some cases, closure in their lives."

John Walsh, of all people, ought to know better. After all, if "psychic" power was genuine, his other TV program, America’s Most Wanted, would be unnecessary -- the nation's legion of "psychic detectives" could take care of locating the fugitives, including the murderer (still unidentified) of his own son. As Posner told Walsh's producer, rather than "budgetary" concerns, he suspects that they cynically opted to titillate rather than "“educate your viewers about the true nature of 'psychic' [phenomena]."

http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/v16n3rpt.html

[Mariah]

John Walsh and Psychics: Thanks, Luke T. That's what I was afraid of. That's too, too bad.

[Luke T.]

John Walsh and Psychics: Thanks, Luke T. That's what I was afraid of. That's too, too bad.

In his book, Dougall claims he convinced Walsh he was the genuine article.

[Kelly]

That's too bad about John Walsh. He's a big enough name without needing to jump onto the psychic bandwagon.

Misc notes: THanks again for the warm welcome, kindness, and compassion extended.

Our pro bono "disappeared" on us. He did try hard for a long time, for which we are most grateful, but like LE, he couldn't figure it out, so things lie dormant for the most part.

PI's in some cases are close to the same level as the psychics. Many of them charge a very hefty charge and give no results. The majority of the families we assist could not even begin to afford one. They're stuck with nothing. IN adult cases, often times little investigation is done by LE. That could be a part of why they get desperate and turn to psychics.

Does anyone know how many people in general believe that psychics are the real thing?

I ran into the IIG folks online some time back, Brian specifically. He asked me to write about my experiences, but at that time, I wasn't ready.

Yes, I would be interested in the TAM, thank you. I see that it just took place. Is it always at that time of year in Vegas?

Kelly

[Silly Green Monkey]

Benjamin Radford presented on psychic detectives at TAM4, including statistics on psychic success. I remember that only one psychic actually found a victim, by searching near where the police were searching. Of course, even the slightest correlation (near trees!) will be claimed as a success.

[Gayle]

Kelly, please accept my sincerest condolences on the mysterious disappearance of your son.

I will hope on your behalf...

I applaud you for warning people about the futility of investing their hopes and money in psychic detectives ... people who cannot help.

Every fiber of my being knows why desperate people turn to psychic help, which is no help at all. I understand it. I don't agree with it, but I do know how the desperation of not knowing can motivate a person to reach out to whatever crumb of help might be offered.

Keep informing people, educating them. It's a worthy endeavor.


Gayle

[Mariah]

I'm glad to see you post here, Kelly, because so much of what we do here on the JREF Forum is just talk, even though it is worthwhile talk when we are educating and encouraging each other. Your involvement opens up ways to actually DO something about all this. I'm always frustrated that we don't DO more.

[Shaun from Scotland]

She paid the woman the "discounted" fee of $50, which was to include a tape of the entire ordeal.



An ordeal indeed. Well said.

I hope things work out for you Kelly. Best wishes.

[Kelly]

Thank you all.

In relation to my initial inquiry, does anyone have any ideas for these 2 action items:

"Another thing which would be helpful and would probably require someone with a pyschiatry background, is to find a way to help these families who feel pressured to use psychics, to not feel guilty about refusing these offers.

And finally, I would love to find someone who is fairly well known in the debunking area, especially when it comes to missing person's cases, to do an interview for the blog I write."

Takers? Someone always knows someone else.....

As to the physciatrist person, I would like some quotes on how persons in these situations, when faced with the helplessness that comes when the case gets cold, can avoid the guilt/desperation that prompts them to seek out psychics.

Kelly

[Kelly]

Incredible!

I just get a pm. I was hoping it was the woman with the missing relative, but no, it was another one of THEM. Apparantly, they did not read this thread!

"hi kellyj i was reading your posts so i checked out your sight and i wanted to let you know your a great person and would like to ask you if maybe i can try and help out i figure things out sometimes it just comes to me maybe you could send me things with pictures and any information with the cases or pictures of items also like personal belongings

while i was reading about a missing child i knew right away what prob happend and as i read i was right"

I said:
"I don't think you read my post. Read it again. If you think you have "powers" then report what you know to law enforecement."

Let me make this clear: Do NOT write to me or PM me with your claims and offers. If you think you know what happened to a missing person, contact the LE involved in their case. They can make the decision as to the validity of your claim and use resources to check it if that is their desire.

I do not and will not refer "psychics" to the families we assist, nor act as a go-between to provide information.

And furthermore, why don't we see your application submitted for the Million Dollar Challenge?

To the rest of the readers: This is just another example of my undesired magnetism for these types. I was hoping I would be exempt here. I am trying to find a little humor in that.

Kelly

[CFLarsen]

Kelly,

If you feel this amounts to harrassment, report the member to the moderators.

[The_Fire]

What bunch of vultures......Kelly, you have my sympathy.

[Kelly]

Kelly,

If you feel this amounts to harrassment, report the member to the moderators.

I'll let post #38 stand as a warning. This person just probably read "mother of missing" and didn't go on from there. I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they persisted in PMing me, I would report them.

[AK-Dave]

KellyJ,
You should consider doing something like www.stopkaz.com (http://www.stopkaz.com), which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up.

-David

[AK-Dave]

"hi kellyj i was reading your posts so i checked out your sight and i wanted to let you know your a great person and would like to ask you if maybe i can try and help out i figure things out..."

Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues?

-David

[Kelly]

KellyJ,
You should consider doing something like (site name), which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up.

-David

I believe my future blog series on this subject matter will serve the same purpose. While it won't be a separate site, it will suffice. I'm afraid I don't have time to build or maintain any more sites than what I already have.

I hope the Kaz site helps to stop this woman.

Kelly

[Kelly]

Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues?

-David

Haven't you heard of "corneal bending"? At at given moment hundreds of "helpers" are willing my corneas to bend in a precise manner. This allows me to enjoy perfect vision. You should try it too.

Rid yourself of glasses and contacts forever! ;)

[Ducky]

Hi Kelly, I'm a bit late to the game with this thread, but let me offer my deepest condolences for your son, and welcome you warmly.

As for TAM, I was just at the last TAM and please believe me it was worth every second of it. I not only recieved help from forum members and the scholarship fund to make it there, but I was also able to do interviews for the podcast skepticality. Your story and your writings would be a very welcome presentation there and I urge you not just to apply for the scholarship when the dates and registrations are announced, but to make sure any paper/presentation you can put together is submitted to be presented at TAM. You have a very important story and experience, and a very important message to give, and I am sure the TAM coordinators would jump at the chance to help you get that message out.

Secondly let me offer any help I can. I write well (though usually not on the forum, haha. You can read my very unpleasantly toned rant about alternative medicine in the thread titled "Doing the least to save your life") and have written articles for others (currently working on a story for the skepchicks ezine) but also you can check my blog at fowlsound.com for a small sampling dealing with my experiences as a cancer patient. I would happily research and write for you if it would help, and if there's another way I can help please PM me and let me know. Even if it is just sending some home made bananna bread for comfort food.

Best wishes, and again welcome.

[Kelly]

Hello and thanks.

When the next TAM is announced and open for registration, I will definetely check into it and see if I can go.

I thank you for sharing your experiences and hope you will beat the cancer. I didn't even stop to think that people in precarious health situations would also be subject to quackery just as I am.

I suppose there is a "fruitcake" for every occasion, just as there is a Hallmark card for various times of our lives. (They still have not come up with a "I'm sorry your loved one is missing." card.)

As I get closer to working up the blog series, I will check back and tap into various person/sources to provide info and quotes to enlighten my readership.

I'll take a raincheck on the banana bread, as my husband would surely eat it all, but if you have an extra chocolate, I would take some of that.

Kelly

[RichardR]

What I want to be able to accomplish by posting here, is to have a very complete collection of links debunking the advantage takers when it comes to missing person's cases. This blog (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/allison_dubois_week.html) has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

[Kelly]

Thanks, Richard.

That was very interesting and enlightening. I did bookmark it and will very likely refer to it in my series, since it is a good example of a debunking on several fronts.

Kelly

[Mariah]

Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him.

[chillzero]

Kind of off topic, kind of on topic...

I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner.

The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future.

I don't know if there was a genuine demonstration of some paranormal ability here (I seriously doubt it), but it dismayed me no end to hear that she (if she is being honest) has been asked for help with no further questions asked, and no further proof of her ability required. I believe this falls into the realm of things such as are being discussed in this thread.

I am waiting to find out where she goes from here, and will let you all know any updates.

[Luke T.]

This blog (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/allison_dubois_week.html) has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

I also wrote an article about Dubois and a "test" of her psychic abilities for Skeptic Report here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/schwartzkeen.htm)

[Luke T.]

Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him.

That would be awesome. Perhaps when Randi is restored to health, he can also be approached about this.

[sophia8]

The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future.
I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from?
Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other.

[Kelly]

Thanks Mariah and Luke T. I continue to work on background studies in the meantime and will be sending a notify to our families we work for very soon to solicit their stories. Hopefully, they will be moved to share.

[chillzero]

I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from?
Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other.

(I don't want to derail the thread, so I will just answer this - we can start a new thread on this topic if required.)

At the beach she was brought to the blanket were the boy they hid had been 'playing' before they moved him to the dunes to hide him. There was a clear short line from it to the dunes. This did bother me. However, the boy was not in a straight line from that point, and the bay was quite long, giving a 180 degree view from one end to the other. I also wondered if the men accompanying her at both tests had subconciously glanced in the target direction before telling her to proceed - I think it would be hard not to.

Search and Rescue were present at the test - they failed to find the missing boy - they said they would search for 30 mins, then use a heat seeking device from a helicopter. It can be assumed that it was this team, but she wasn't specific.

In the forest there was no obvious trail, but in both cases she appears to have been the last person to set off, so perhaps the land was a little more scuffed up - you would really need to watch it, because it was surprisingly accurate how she did it. There was substantial forest space to investigate, but they did not move the target between 'psychics' on either test.

However, she failed miserably in some other tests, and appeared to become more precise as the weeks drew on, which makes me suspect assistance from the crew (particularly the "sceptical" police officer).

[Kelly]

This is the piece I will be sending out to the families we serve late this evening to ask for their stories. If anyone has any ideas for something I'm lacking, feel free to speak up. Thanks.

"Most of you are familiar with my online blog. (Please see the link in my signature line if you are not.) My blog series on the unidentified deceased and throwaway missing sparked the nationwide Campaign for the Missing, which is already showing results, thanks to a great group of people working together. I am now doing research for another series with potential impact and I want your participation. In fact, not only do I want it, but justice cries out for it. We, the families of the missing, are victims in several ways. If our loved one has been taken from us in a brutal way, we are victims. We may also be victims of a poorly constructed and trained LE structure. We may be victims of society's apathy to our plight because of prejudices against missing persons, particularly adults. We again may be the victims of a nonresponsive media. There is one method of victimization that can be avoided, however, and that is by people who claim to be able to find your missing loved one via paranormal means.

There are several things I want to accomplish in this series. Before going into that, it may be helpful to clarify our position on this: There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have some ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this. These persons re-victimize families by taking away hope where it should stand, and giving hope where there is none. No person has the right to do this to another.

Advantage takers, such as psychics and other users of proported paranormal phenomena, cause unneccesary and damaging pain and anguish to families of the missing. They can also add to financial stress if they charge fees. We're already on a roller coaster ride of events and emotions, and we should have no desire to add to it.

What we wish to accomplish in this series is to demonstrate to families of the missing the real methodology used by these persons. Understanding what goes on behind the scenes should lessen any guilt feelings for not accepting offers of "help" from these persons, whether it is fee-based or not. We want to lessen the pain already present in our every breath, and arm families with the information to defend themselves against these persons.

Marc Klaas, Founder of KlaasKids and father of abducted, then murdered child Polly Klass, said it best: "I have very strong feelings about psychics. They're part of a second wave of predators. The first wave is the person who takes the child. The second is the ambulance-chasing lawyers, the exploitation journalists and psychics. They're off the mark, every last one of them."

Please also note that the FBI and NCMEC maintain that psychics have never solved a single missing person's case.

In order for this series to be completely effective, I need you to share your stories about your dealings with psychics. If you are interested in doing this to help other families of the missing, please send me your story no later than March 3rd. If you feel it would be helpful to you, I will be happy to send you a basic outline of how to present your story."

[Mariah]

This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant.

I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Very good idea, I wonder why it hasn't been done sooner? The way that psychic predators come out of the woodwork when a child goes missing or is murdered, educating parents on their scams. Something that law enforcement should be aware of as well.

[cpolk]

A rule of thumb with an organization such as yours: Pay for results. You pay contractors in every field dependent upon their results, and you should treat 'psychics' the same way.

Tell them that they will receive no pay until results are produced. Set a pre-determined amount, and suggest for pay scale determined by usefulness of the information, so that the more accurate they are, the more they will get paid. If they do not prove to be accurate beyond what could be conceived by merely guessing, do not pay them.

This way, you are giving them a chance to apply their "trade" while protecting your organization from scam artists.

[ysabella]

cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them.
You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever?

[Luke T.]

Excellent post soliciting input from victims of psychics claiming to find missing people, Kelly.

One misspelling:


Advantage takers, such as psychics and other users of proported paranormal phenomena

I believe you mean "purported".

Also, be aware that some people are going to respond to your solicitation claiming success with psychics. How do you plan on handling that? Are you not going to include their remarks in your future reports?

You also need to be aware that some respondees may claim their missing loved one was found by a psychic. Beware of frauds. These may be shills for the very psychics you are fighting. Make sure you ask for bona fide evidence. News report, etc. (ETA: Make sure they are who they say they are. Name, address, phone number, name of investigating officer. You get the idea.)

I admire your courage and the amount of energy you are putting into this effort. You must love your son very, very much.

[JLam]

Very nice, KellyJ. We'll all be here to help you along the way. Keep us updated on your efforts.

[cpolk]

cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them.
You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever?

Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed.

A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website.

That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would.

For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information.

Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done.

On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape.

Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take.

[Luke T.]

If one of my children went missing and a psychic contacted me, I'd invite them over. And have the press there when they arrived. Then make a speech about what a piece of crap lowlife bloodsucking vampire the psychic is for trying to victimize me in the worst period of my life. "Snap a photo of this scumbag, folks, for your readers/viewers!"

I doubt I'd get any more calls from psychics or the journalists who shill for them.

[RichardR]

I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner.
If they were really psychic, why would the losing ones participate? I mean, if they already knew they were going to lose before they started… ;)

[Kelly]

This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant.

I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore.

Thanks, Mariah. I should have spelled those out for this audience. The families know what LE and NCMEC is, but others outside the circle would not.

LE=Law Enforcement
NCMEC=National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

Thanks for contacting Susan!

[Kelly]

Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed.

A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website.

That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would.

For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information.

Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done.

On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape.

Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take.

In regards to this whole issue about offering money to psychics if they can prove themselves:

Our mission is to help the families. We don't want to become a missing person/psychic busting entity. If we offered something like that, they'd be coming out of the woodwork to try for the money, and we'd be spending our days and nights determining if anyone gave adequate proof rather than helping the families.

It's an interesting concept, but in a sense, that's what the Million Dollar Challenge is, correct?

My reason behind what I am doing is to show these victims the truth behind the mystique and to help them feel justified in the decision not to go down this futile and painful road.

I want to alleviate their guilt and keep them from giving into the desperation/helplessness that comes with the territory.

If we bust some of these losers while doing this, that's icing on the cake.

[Kelly]

Excellent post soliciting input from victims of psychics claiming to find missing people, Kelly.

One misspelling:

I believe you mean "purported".

Also, be aware that some people are going to respond to your solicitation claiming success with psychics. How do you plan on handling that? Are you not going to include their remarks in your future reports?

You also need to be aware that some respondees may claim their missing loved one was found by a psychic. Beware of frauds. These may be shills for the very psychics you are fighting. Make sure you ask for bona fide evidence. News report, etc. (ETA: Make sure they are who they say they are. Name, address, phone number, name of investigating officer. You get the idea.)

I admire your courage and the amount of energy you are putting into this effort. You must love your son very, very much.

Thanks, Luke. I'll correct that word. I knew it didn't look right, but the words were flowing, so I ignored it.

The issues with attracting even more vermin needs to be dicussed. In my writings, I will make it clear that we are not going to become an agency that investigates psychic's claims. I can imagine it getting very out of hand. I will nip it in the bud by letting them know that their emails will be deleted. At the same time, I don't want to give the appearance of not being open to the possibility. This may keep fence sitters from becoming defensive towards us. That may buy time to dazzle them with logic and facts.

Here's my idea on the latter: I will encourage those persons to come here and post their claims. That is, if the members here are ok with me referring them here.

I would say something such as:

"We understand that many people believe that psychics are effective in solving crimes and finding missing people. Please keep in mind that the goal of this series is to help families understand techniques used by persons making these claims and make better decisions about the use of psychics.

Project Jason and its volunteers cannot act as a clearinghouse for persons claiming success in using paranormal means to locate missing persons. We will be unable to respond to emails or other correspondence sent to us from persons making these claims or persons offering information about or referrals to psychics.

We instead invite those persons to present their evidence to the members of the James Randi Education Foundation. They have a forum available for you to discuss your claims. http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7 "

Would that be acceptable to the members and the foundation?

[Kelly]

BTW, thanks to all for the encouragement and assistance.

Here's another idea that came to me that would be not only helpful to me timewise, but also would lend to the air of authority in presenting this.

Would members who have previous writing/presenting experience like to be a guest writer in the series and present various debunking scenarios?

For example, one person would take the category of medium and present the definition and then give an example of the methods used. Some of the example dialogs I've seen would be very effective, especially when the scripts are written with a missing person's case in mind.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

I can finally post links! Here's my standard signature:

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Gr8wight]

This blog (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/allison_dubois_week.html) has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

Kelly,

Please allow me to add my welcome to the other voices speaking up. You are a truly brave and strong woman. On behalf of those less versed in critical thinking than we, I thank you.

Just one note regarding the blog RichardR provided a link to. Be aware that twopercentco.com (http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/) do not pull any punches, and do not censor themselves. You might want to warn anyone you refer to their site that they will likely encounter off-colour language.

[Kelly]

Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome.

I don't feel brave, really. Perhaps the roots of this are found in my rebellious teenage years. I always considered myself to be a "Rebel with a Cause". :cool: As an adult, I now get to act this out and get away with it. At least I'm not breaking any laws!

I am always reminded, however, of the reason I am in this position, in which there is no humor. I do consider it a privlege to be in a position of having an effect on so many lives. It is one I do not take lightly.

I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others.

Kelly

[Scoobmaster]

Hi kellyJ!

I don't post messages here as often as many others, but let me extend a welcome to the forums. I also express my deepest sympathy concerning your missing son. After following this thread for a week, I found tragic irony in a news story in my local paper about a woman who went missing 6 weeks ago. Here is the pertinent quote (emphasis added by me):

"Without any fresh news from police, her family turned to a local psychic last week. Phil Jordan told them that he envisioned Madden as meeting up with two men. He told them that she may have been injured in the head or chest, but that he didn't envision her as being dead, he said on a tape recording.

Jordan also pointed them to Great Bend, Pa. - a border community with New York state. This information gave them hope. One of the first tips to police was that a woman fitting Madden's description had been spotted hitchhiking in Great Bend.

The family drove the streets of the small Pennsylvania community. They put up posters there and spoke to Pennsylvania State Police. But they've heard nothing, her mother and father said. The lead never panned out."

Gee. I wonder why?

Here is the link to the full news report:
http://pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/NEWS01/602220313/1006

Sounds all too familiar, doesn't it? The name Phil Jordan is probably all too familiar to members of the forum.

[elaine]

KellyJ,

Thanks for starting this thread. I've referred a friend, who is a big Sylvia Brown fan, to your website and here. My hope is to show her that there is harm in what these people do.

Keep up the great work!!

[Gr8wight]

Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Unfortunately, it is not my hat.

I don't feel brave, really.

I think that those we see as brave never see themselves as brave. They simply see themselves as having done what was necessary.

I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others.

Kelly

Shhh, don't tell anyone. You'll spoil my rep.

[Kelly]

Oh my, Wanderin....you seem to have placed yourself on the defensive. If you recall, you pm'd me, offering your "services". I assumed you must have not really read the thread well, otherwise it would have been apparent to you that I did not want to receive solicitations of this type. I encouraged you to post a separate thread about whatever it is that you say you do for the edification of others. Instead, you came back here and launched a verbal assault. If you go back to post #38, you will see that I mentioned I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I was not unkind. However, you were.

Whether or not a person wants money or does not want money has no bearing on the damage done to the psyche by individuals claiming to have knowledge of a missing person's whereabouts who do not. I do not close the door completely on such persons. I do tell them that if they think they know something, they should take that information straight to law enforcement. I let them discern if the information has any merit and act upon it accordingly.

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

All of these people who come to you offering help want you to go through something like that. How did you feel reading that? How many times would you want to hear stories like that? What do you think that does to a person? Do you think it's healthy? How is it that it is called "helping"? Nothing has ever come of it except for pain. Is pain helpful? Does pain find the missing person?

Granted, this is the worst of this type of thing, but people who are not in this position have no idea of the roller coaster ride of emotions that we ride daily. We live with an ongoing trauma. Anyone in the medical field can understand what trauma does to a person mentally and physically. To add to that trauma needlessly is not a good idea. Needlessly refers to the fact that persons using paranormal means have not proven themselves useful in finding the missing person. I just don't know how much clearer I can make this. And in regards to caring, I care a great deal. If I didn’t, I wouldn't do this work while dealing with my own loss. Anyone who knows the work I have done cannnot dispute that I care. The fact that you do not understand how I can disagree with your opinion does not negate my caring.

BTW, every single word written on the website and the blog are written by me unless otherwise noted. I really don't know what that has to do with anything, just as I do not understand the comment about donations. Where do you think a nonprofit gets their money? My husband and I are both working stiffs. Our family is not well off financially, so we cannot front the money to the organization to pay for the services provided. Just as with almost all small nonprofits, we depend upon the generosity of the public to help us accomplish our goals. We have no paid staff and we do not not even have an office. The only equipment owned by the organization is one phone and one laptop, which was donated. Without donations, how would we pay the phone or the website bill? How would we pay for the Personal ID Kits and other safety/prevention information we give away? How would we pay for the financial aid given to the families for visual aids, such as posters? We do not charge one penny to anyone for these services. We will not take money from the families we serve. That is wrong in our opinion. How would you propose that we pay for all of this if not through donations from generous people?

I have taken a considerable amount of my time now to help you understand this, Wanderin. I hope it is helpful to you in some way.

Now I ask that the thread be returned to its purpose, which is for members here to help me help the families of the missing understand the issues regarding psychics. I again encourage you to start your own thread about your methods. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[Luke T.]

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

Kelly, if (WHEN!) you end up making a presentation at The Amazing Meeting next year, this should be your opening statement.

Nominated for the language award (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1462655#post1462655). I’ve linked to it in case Kelly doesn’t know what that is.

[Beth]

Wow, Kelly. You have my compliments for your post. I'm glad to see it's already been nominated for the language award.

[Ducky]

Kelly I second that Language nomination.

Also, I would point out WanderinWTF also thinks his "powers" can cure back pain. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1431127#post1431127) Pay no attention to that troll.

[Luke T.]

Kelly I second that Language nomination.

Also, I would point out WanderinWTF also thinks his "powers" can cure back pain. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1431127#post1431127) Pay no attention to that troll.

Love your response to that post. :D :D :D

[Ducky]

Love your response to that post. :D :D :D


I think that may be my defacto response to everything that idiot posts.

[Kelly]

A blanket thank you all once again.

I did not know what the Language Nomination was all about, but I read up on it and hope to win the Jaguar, if given a choice. :D Funny thing..there is a tiny grammatical error on that post that I will fix, and I hope that will not nullify my entry!

Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.

RE: Phil Jordan I've heard the name, but don't much about his gig. Notice the desperation of the parents in the article. There was no activity on the case, so they felt they had to take this action. This is a very common scenario. Media attention and police attention wane, and families are left feeling helpless and alone. Many times, they are encouraged by others to seek out these persons, not realizing just how empty they will feel afterwards. They "bottom out", so to speak emotionally, when nothing comes of the "lead".

Could everyone please glance back at my posts pre-drama and see what you think about my ideas?

[Kelly]

A blanket thank you all once again.

I did not know what the Language Nomination was all about, but I read up on it and hope to win the Jaguar, if given a choice. :D Funny thing..there is a tiny grammatical error on that post that I will fix, and I hope that will not nullify my entry!

Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.

RE: Phil Jordan I've heard the name, but don't much about his gig. Notice the desperation of the parents in the article. There was no activity on the case, so they felt they had to take this action. This is a very common scenario. Media attention and police attention wane, and families are left feeling helpless and alone. Many times, they are encouraged by others to seek out these persons, not realizing just how empty they will feel afterwards. They "bottom out", so to speak emotionally, when nothing comes of the "lead".

Could everyone please glance back at my posts pre-drama and see what you think about my ideas?

These would be posts #71 & 72.

Perhaps I did not have a grammatical error after all. The post stands. :)

[ObscureReferenceMan]

A little late, but... Welcome KellyJ!

I must say, you are a class act. Coming here to speak your mind/heart on a subject so painful is inspiring (and your diplomatic handling of WTF - well said!). I'm glad someone like you is able to take a stand against the psychic scum that feeds off the grief of others. If the "skeptic community" takes a stand, we might simply come off as closed-minded wet-blankets out to prove our own superiority. You are an example - to show that these psychics are not only ineffective, but also harmful.

Though a skeptic, I don't come down hard on much of the "woo" out there - with the exception of psychic detectives and the likes of John Edward and Silvia Browne. (Must... contain... bile.....)

Keep up the good work! And I hope we see more of you.

[HeyLeroy]

Welcome, KellyJ, and let me express my deepest sympathy to you and your family. We're all pulling for a good outcome to your dreadful situation.
As a father of two young children, I couldn't imagine what I would do if I was faced with the same situation. I could only hope that I would have the strength and courage you are showing.

You should be commended for your efforts in trying to put an end to the pain caused by these vile, despicable vultures. I have nothing but contempt for those people.

Thank you for sharing your story here, and if there's any way we can help, please continue to keep us informed. I see that others have come forward with help, and I'm proud to be a part of this community. I missed this year's TAM, but I look forward to seeing a presentation by you at next year's, if it's at all possible.

[elaine]

Elaine: I haven't heard from your friend yet, but I will set her straight about SB.



I doubt you will hear from my friend. She's pretty unbending on this issue. I try not to be too critical. I've been quite a woo believer, in the not too distant past. I only hope I was never that bad.

As far as your ideas, I can't speak for Randi or anyone else, but I think they're great. But to give those who claim special gifts the opportunity to prove their claims, is the reason the challenge was created to begin with.

[HeyLeroy]

I've recently read John Walsh's book about the murder of his son. I'm not at home right now, and I can't remember the title, but I do recall he was pretty harsh toward the psychics who tried scamming on him. I'll track down the passage when I get home. It would be saddening if he's somehow changed his opinion on this.

[chillzero]

Now I ask that the thread be returned to its purpose, which is for members here to help me help the families of the missing understand the issues regarding psychics.

Kelly, I would like to apologise for de-railing earlier, and for my little emotional outburst.

What you are doing is amazing, and I am sorry about the source of all the good work. I hope that some day you get closure of some kind. I think the ideas you have put forward are all excellent, and I wish I could offer some practical help.

I'm not a debunker, or a psychiatrist, nor do I have any links I can offer to assist you. I am a budding writer however (unpublished), so perhaps I could write up something for you, if you would like. Perhaps I could look into the woman I mentioned earlier who won the tv show here in the UK. Her site claims that she has given help to various police forces in solving cases and tracing people, and shows letters from police forces about her input.

A good article writer, in my opinion, is Tony Youens. You can see examples of his articles examining psychic performances at his site: http://www.tonyyouens.com/ and he is a regular poster here too. In my opinion he would be a good guest writer for you.

[Roadtoad]

Just read this.

Damn.

Kelly, if there's a way, can you get me some photos of your son and those you're looking for? If I can, while I'm out on the road, I'll see if anyone will post those pictures. Truck stops sometimes accept them, and I'll see if Cal Trans will allow them at rest areas. Ditto NDOT and other orgs. Maybe other drivers will take a few.

It's not much, but if it helps, well, I'm willing.

[DSE]

KellyJ,

I can't imagine what it must be like to go through what you have. But, like everyone else, I am hugely appreciative of what you're doing. Whether it's intentional or not, it's hard to watch psychics take advantage of people when they are most desperate.

In terms of notable skeptics on the topic, Benjamin Radford from the Skeptical Inquirer just did an interview on the Point of Inquiry podcast on Psychics Detectives. It was a good interview, and he might be a good person talk to. Hope this helps.

[Aussie Thinker]

Kelly,

I don’t often get moved by many things but your plight and the dignity and eloquence you show in handling it are truly inspiring.

I offer up my sincerest hope that your son is found and your situation resolved.

WanderinWTF,

People here have been FAR too kind.

Your pathetically worded and ridiculous ramble shows what a complete semi-literate moron you are.

You probably do think you have some sort of “power”.. you sound too stupid to realise dreaming and coincidences are just NORMAL.

I would have let your inanity slide except you DARED to have a go at Kelly for casting some perceived slight on you. Kelly should have hit you with both barrels instead she treated you with FAR more respect than you deserved.

I have NEVER called for the banning of someone, anywhere, anytime, any forum, any topic… but you are a complete waste of space and should be removed …

Others

My faith in this site (and most of its members) has been renewed yet again.. except for that idiot Wanderin.. the responses have been fantastic.

[meg]

KellyJ,

I just want to repeat what so many here have said. Welcome, and thank you for doing what you are doing. It is a valuable service. My heart aches for the agony you must go through daily. I am full of admiration for your strength, tact and wisdom. If there is anything that I can do to help your cause, I will try to do it.

I hope to attend TAM next year, too. If you can come, I promise I'll bring you chocolate :)

WanderinWTF
Hasn't your own performance here just proven that you have no gift, and you have no idea what "help" even means? If you really want to be helpful to the world, why don't you seek out a therapist to help you figure out why you are so pathetically insecure as to seek out a person in great emotional pain and distress and try to make her pay attention to you by doing the exact thing that she has requested people NOT do? And when she told you to go away, you attack her as "not caring"??????

You are an idiot. Go away.

Meg

[Flo]

Whether or not a person wants money or does not want money has no bearing on the damage done to the psyche by individuals claiming to have knowledge of a missing person's whereabouts who do not.

.....

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

All of these people who come to you offering help want you to go through something like that. How did you feel reading that? How many times would you want to hear stories like that? What do you think that does to a person? Do you think it's healthy? How is it that it is called "helping"? Nothing has ever come of it except for pain. Is pain helpful? Does pain find the missing person?


KellyJ,

Thank you for expressing so eloquently the reasons it is so necessary to fight the false pretenses of psychics, charlatans, and other emotional vampires.

Sorry there's not much more I can do for you than express my deepest sympathy.


Florence

[farrisjs]

KellyJ

Let me also thank you for you good work. Being the father of two girls I can only imagine what you have been thru and I am inspired by your williness to help others and fight against those who prey on them.

Steve

[Mercutio]

ya well imagine that something happend[snip]
Lemme guess...as a hobby, you pour salt into people's wounds.


KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea...

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I personally have not been able to make the meetings due to scheduling issues, but every year there is an "Scholarship Fund" to help out worthy people who would attend but cannot because of finances. This year it paid the expenses of quite a few.


42, if I recall correctly.

[Mariah]

Those connected to the skeptical cause know that Dr. Susan Blackmore of the UK is an internationally-known scientist and proponent of rational thinking. No one--no one--has investigated claims of the paranormal for as long or as thoroughly as Susan Blackmore. She began her career with the aim of proving psi exists, and ended it after three decades of finding no evidence.

I'm pleased she responded to my email requesting her take on the issue of psychic detectives.

A brief bio of Dr. Blackmore, followed by her statement to us:

Sue Blackmore is a freelance writer, lecturer and broadcaster, and a Visiting Lecturer at the University of the West of England, Bristol. She has a degree in psychology and physiology from Oxford University (1973) and a PhD in parapsychology from the University of Surrey (1980). Her research interests include memes (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/memetics/index.htm), evolutionary theory, consciousness, and meditation. Sue Blackmore no longer works on the paranormal.

She writes for several magazines and newspapers, and is a frequent contributor and presenter on radio and television (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/media.htm). She is author of over sixty academic articles, about forty book contributions, and many book reviews. Her books (http://forums.randi.org/publicat.htm#Books) include Beyond the Body (1982), Dying to Live (on near-death experiences, 1993), In Search of the Light (autobiography, 1996), and Test Your Psychic Powers (with Adam Hart-Davis, 1997).
The Meme Machine (1999) has been translated into 13 other languages. Her textbook Consciousness: An Introduction was published in June 2003 (Hodder UK, OUP New York), and A Very Short Introduction to Consciousness in 2005 (OUP). Her latest book is Conversations on Consciousness (November 2005 OUP Oxford) published in January 2006.

Back in 2000, in cleaning out her files and declaring that she had given up investigating the paranormal she said, "I found no psychic phenomena - only wishful thinking, self-deception, experimental error and, occasionally, fraud. I became a sceptic."


When I shared KellyJ's personal story and Project Jason with Dr. Blackmore, she went to the website and blog and read it thoroughly. Her sympathy with Kelly's situation was palpable, even over email. In offering us the following statement, however, she wanted to make sure we understood that she in no way endorses religion.


"I investigated psychics and psychic claims for 30 years. In all that time I never encountered convincing evidence of any psychic powers. I met many friendly and pleasant psychics who made false claims while apparently genuinely believing in their powers; they were self-deluded as well as misleading others. I also met a few out-and-out frauds whose harm cannot easily be exaggerated. They prey on the bereaved, the fearful and the vulnerable to extract large sums of money under false pretences. The tricks they use need to be exposed and people helped to avoid being sucked into their clutches." ---Dr. Susan Blackmore.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Cora Baron, at it again.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0206/2301_grinstead_family_tries_to_find_her.html

Now preying upon Tara Grinstead's family.

[The_Fire]

I've had it.

*starts working on a documentary synopsis on exactly HOW many cases are solved with the help of Psychics in order to hopefully get one of the national television stations interested.*

[Mercutio]

Sylvia Baron, at it again.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0206/2301_grinstead_family_tries_to_find_her.html

Now preying upon Tara Grinstead's family.
Cora Baron, you mean. Had me confused for a bit...

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Cora Baron, you mean. Had me confused for a bit...

You are correct sir, I was reading the piece on Sylvia Baron as I posted that. :D

[Katachresis]

I am going to ask you one more time to start your own thread. This thread is not about you or your claimed abilities.

Kelly

Thanks Kelly, for getting us back on topic.

I've been trying to think of new ideas that might help, but haven't found anything yet. But I won’t stop. I'll check out your site, and can at least make a modest contribution. (I am presently under funded myself.)

My heart goes out to you, your family, and to anyone else in similar circumstances.

Last summer I read a book dealing with missing children. I had to stop one third through, as I would become too emotional, even while reading fiction.

I hope that this thread has helped you, despite a few tangents that are almost inevitable in such a forum. There are good people here. People willing to actually help. Even if it’s only to have a place where you can explore your options, and spread awareness of the plight of others with missing relatives.

Kevin

[Kelly]

I have asked moderators if they could remove the posts made today from Wanderin and related to Wanderin. I also asked if they could place them on a new thread just for Wanderin. I don't know if that's possible, but as one person said, this thread had alot of good information pre-clutter.

If you would please, do not respond to him. I am now trying to find the serious posts so that I may respond to those.

Thank you!

Kelly

[Kelly]

Cora Baron, at it again.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0206/2301_grinstead_family_tries_to_find_her.html

Now preying upon Tara Grinstead's family.

I believe they mean Carla Baron.

This all becomes a vicious circle. No leads in the case=desperation on the part of the family. No leads also equals no media coverage which increases the desperation and leads to contacting these people.

Someone on this forum contacts the authors of these media articles when they are posted online. They attempt to set them straight about psychics and the lack of evidence they do anything other than harming the families.

I think this is an excellent idea.

Here's a news article about this case:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4538336&nav=5kZQ

[Kelly]

KellyJ, my heart goes out to you and your family. Have you thought of setting up an PayPal account for your site so people can make donations through that?

Michael

Hi Michael,

There is a long and very detailed answer as to why we do not have a Paypal account set up. I know if we did, we would get more donations.

To try to summarize: Each state has laws governing charitable organizations and the solicitation/acceptance of donations. There is a debate about whether an Internet presence, such as an org's website, constitutes a solicitation simply because of its existence.

At this time, the governing entity of these states as it pertains to donations, has not made a ruling that a website is not a soliciation. Therefore, an org should comply to the rules of that state.

Some states have lengthy applications and fees that must be paid in order to accept donations. The fees add up to about 1k, so we did not pursue that since we do not receive many donations. For example, In Utah, the fee is $100, but if no one from Utah ever donates, that is not a wise way to spend the public's money when we don't have much to begin with.

Most orgs do not study this and will just put up a Paypal link.

[Kelly]

Kelly, I would like to apologise for de-railing earlier, and for my little emotional outburst.

What you are doing is amazing, and I am sorry about the source of all the good work. I hope that some day you get closure of some kind. I think the ideas you have put forward are all excellent, and I wish I could offer some practical help.

I'm not a debunker, or a psychiatrist, nor do I have any links I can offer to assist you. I am a budding writer however (unpublished), so perhaps I could write up something for you, if you would like. Perhaps I could look into the woman I mentioned earlier who won the tv show here in the UK. Her site claims that she has given help to various police forces in solving cases and tracing people, and shows letters from police forces about her input.

A good article writer, in my opinion, is Tony Youens. You can see examples of his articles examining psychic performances at his site: http://www.tonyyouens.com/ and he is a regular poster here too. In my opinion he would be a good guest writer for you.

Hi Cabby,

No problem. Thanks for your kind words. I took a look at Tony's site and agree that he would be an excellent guest writer. I was going to write to him, but as always, I'm buried under a huge pile of work. If anyone wishes to write to him on my behalf, similar to Mariah's contacting Susan, I would be happy to delegate!

I'd still like to see some action pertaining to my posts #71 & 72, so this would certainly help. If no one can/wants to take this on in respect to writing Tony, I will get to it eventually.

I took the day off to try to get caught up on several things, one of them being the serious post and inquiries here.

Kelly

[Kelly]

Kelly, if there's a way, can you get me some photos of your son and those you're looking for? If I can, while I'm out on the road, I'll see if anyone will post those pictures. Truck stops sometimes accept them, and I'll see if Cal Trans will allow them at rest areas. Ditto NDOT and other orgs. Maybe other drivers will take a few.

It's not much, but if it helps, well, I'm willing.

Hi Roadtoad,

We have posters online of numerous missing persons, including my son. We encourage the public to go to these sites and print and place posters wherever they can....absolutely!

Links to our poster campaign programs:
http://www.projectjason.org/18wheel.html
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html

If this doesn't work for you, PM or email me your snail mail address, and I will mail you whatever number you indicate.

Thank you!

Kelly

[Kelly]

In terms of notable skeptics on the topic, Benjamin Radford from the Skeptical Inquirer just did an interview on the Point of Inquiry podcast on Psychics Detectives. It was a good interview, and he might be a good person talk to. Hope this helps.

Would anyone want to contact Benjamin, or do you have a contact link for him?

Thanks,
Kelly

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Would anyone want to contact Benjamin, or do you have a contact link for him?

Thanks,
Kelly

bradford@centerforinquiry.net (bradford@centerforinquiry.net)

[CFLarsen]

Kelly,

Keep an eye out for when the TAM4 DVD comes out. Ben Radford had an excellent paper on the failure of psychic detectives.

[meg]

Mercutio: "KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea..."

I think that's a very interesting idea, Mercutio. I, too have been reading this thread and getting an increasing feeling of helplessness and desparation. I'll respect whatever KellyJ's answer is as to whether it might be appropriate to contact these grieving stressed out parents directly.

I'm wondering if somehow we could put together a site specifically as a resource for those of us that wish to help stop these "psychic" predators. Perhaps it could include samples of letters to be sent to newspapers, newstations, etc complaining when they post news about such&such psychics working on a case. Maybe even some kind of blanket warning statement to be aired when someone is reported as missing warning that these predators may come out at times like this seeking only to improve their own status, publicity or wealth, with links to skeptical sites that lay out the facts.

Maybe even a resource kit to be sent to police stations, that they could pass on to victims, should it seem appropriate, that includes contact info for a local skeptic society that would offer to help them fend off these whackos...?

Just throwing out some ideas.

There is a meeting this weekend of our local skeptic society. I think maybe I'll go and see if there's any interest there.

Meg

[Luke T.]

I'd still like to see some action pertaining to my posts #71 & 72, so this would certainly help. If no one can/wants to take this on in respect to writing Tony, I will get to it eventually.

For post #71, you can PM Linda and ask if what you want to do is acceptable to the Foundation. None of us can speak for JREF.

But it looks good to me, and I don't think Linda will have any problem with it.

Linda is aware of this topic, and supportive of your goals. So you won't need to give a long explanation.

[Kelly]

KellyJ--a question, where you would have a better answer than most: Suppose we read in our local paper of a child who has gone missing. Would it be a reasonable or unreasonable idea to contact (perhaps a flyer by mail would be a fairly non-intrusive way?) them with information about the worthlessness of these predatory scum "psychics"? Perhaps with information about websites like yours, or some of the information from your (or another appropriate) site?

I feel like I would want to contact them and say "send all such psychic volunteers to me, and I'll deal with them for you, so that you are not subjected to this torture", but I also realize that is somewhat insulting to them. And of course, doing nothing leaves this helpless feeling...

Just an idea...

That is a very interesting and worthy idea. Not only does it make the family aware of these vipers early in the game before desperation mode sets in, but it also lets them know about the existence of organizations, such as ours.

It is a fact, and a sad one, that in the majority of cases, LE (law enforcement) do NOT give the family of the missing a referral to a missing person organization. As most people do not know what actions to take when this happens, they will sit back, thinking LE is doing it all. In the cases of runaways and adults, sometimes LE does nothing! Time is a great enemy here, and families should be taking other steps immediately to find their loved one.

Going back to the psychic issue, perhaps we should draft a one page letter that expresses our sorrow at the situation, and then moves into some basic steps to take info, and finally, cautions the family about psychics and provides links to the (future) blog series and our org.

Members, upon seeing news about a missing person could see if the family's contact info is public and send them the letter. If it is not public, they could send it to the media outlet, and ask them to forward it. Doing the latter would educate them as well!

Does that make sense?

[Luke T.]

That is a very interesting and worthy idea. Not only does it make the family aware of these vipers early in the game before desperation mode sets in, but it also lets them know about the existence of organizations, such as ours.

It is a fact, and a sad one, that in the majority of cases, LE (law enforcement) do NOT give the family of the missing a referral to a missing person organization. As most people do not know what actions to take when this happens, they will sit back, thinking LE is doing it all. In the cases of runaways and adults, sometimes LE does nothing! Time is a great enemy here, and families should be taking other steps immediately to find their loved one.

Going back to the psychic issue, perhaps we should draft a one page letter that expresses our sorrow at the situation, and then moves into some basic steps to take info, and finally, cautions the family about psychics and provides links to the (future) blog series and our org.

Members, upon seeing news about a missing person could see if the family's contact info is public and send them the letter. If it is not public, they could send it to the media outlet, and ask them to forward it. Doing the latter would educate them as well!

Does that make sense?

Excellent. Warnings about "the second wave of predators". Terrific ideas here.

[Kelly]

I think that's a very interesting idea, Mercutio. I, too have been reading this thread and getting an increasing feeling of helplessness and desparation. I'll respect whatever KellyJ's answer is as to whether it might be appropriate to contact these grieving stressed out parents directly.

I'm wondering if somehow we could put together a site specifically as a resource for those of us that wish to help stop these "psychic" predators. Perhaps it could include samples of letters to be sent to newspapers, newstations, etc complaining when they post news about such&such psychics working on a case. Maybe even some kind of blanket warning statement to be aired when someone is reported as missing warning that these predators may come out at times like this seeking only to improve their own status, publicity or wealth, with links to skeptical sites that lay out the facts.

Maybe even a resource kit to be sent to police stations, that they could pass on to victims, should it seem appropriate, that includes contact info for a local skeptic society that would offer to help them fend off these whackos...?

Just throwing out some ideas.

There is a meeting this weekend of our local skeptic society. I think maybe I'll go and see if there's any interest there.

Meg

I love this, Meg!! (and your chocolate, too)

What an excellent idea.

There might be some kind person out there who would donate space on a webserver, another person to buy/donate a domain name, and a 3rd person to act as webmaster. (or any combination therein)

A talented webmaster knows how to get hits when the public looks up "missing persons", thus leading the families to the site.

The resource kit is also a good idea, although I am skeptical that it would go beyond the hands of the recipient in many cases. I say this because I have fought for two years to get our local LE to give us as a resource when doing a case intake, I even then suggested that they give the two main orgs, National Center for Missing Adults (NCMA) and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, (NCMEC) but they won't even do that. (See my post about this issue a few above this) CYA is what I think is going on there. CYA is more important to them than a life, apparently.

Let's hear from others about this. I think it's awesome.

[Ducky]

I love this, Meg!! (and your chocolate, too)

What an excellent idea.

There might be some kind person out there who would donate space on a webserver, another person to buy/donate a domain name, and a 3rd person to act as webmaster. (or any combination therein)

A talented webmaster knows how to get hits when the public looks up "missing persons", thus leading the families to the site.

The resource kit is also a good idea, although I am skeptical that it would go beyond the hands of the recipient in many cases. I say this because I have fought for two years to get our local LE to give us as a resource when doing a case intake, I even then suggested that they give the two main orgs, National Center for Missing Adults (NCMA) and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, (NCMEC) but they won't even do that. (See my post about this issue a few above this) CYA is what I think is going on there. CYA is more important to them than a life, apparently.

Let's hear from others about this. I think it's awesome.



I'm in for the domain and to webmaster it, but I can't develop a website for crap. any talented web developers willing to put something together for me to get up and running? What's the domain nam going to be?

[CFLarsen]

I'll design it.

[Ducky]

I'll design it.


Great. shoot me a PM when that's ready to go up. I'll work on the webspace and the dot com.

So what's our domain name?


Shall we have a forum on there for parents of missing kids?

[Kelly]

Wonderful!

I think the name will be very important. It should somehow have missing persons in it.

Let's brainstorm.

[meg]

no-psychics.org
psychic-proof.org
psychic-help.org
???

oops. just now saw your comment about having missing persons in the name...

I'll go think some more.

Meg

[Kelly]

Thanks Kelly, for getting us back on topic.

I've been trying to think of new ideas that might help, but haven't found anything yet. But I won’t stop. I'll check out your site, and can at least make a modest contribution. (I am presently under funded myself.)

My heart goes out to you, your family, and to anyone else in similar circumstances.

Last summer I read a book dealing with missing children. I had to stop one third through, as I would become too emotional, even while reading fiction.

I hope that this thread has helped you, despite a few tangents that are almost inevitable in such a forum. There are good people here. People willing to actually help. Even if it’s only to have a place where you can explore your options, and spread awareness of the plight of others with missing relatives.

Kevin

Thank you, Kevin.

The thread is back on track and great things are happening.

People like me and others in my place get an infusion of hope when people like you and the JREF members are willing to do things that make a difference. Even what one might think as a little thing, such as hanging a poster, can make a dark day brighter.

[Kelly]

Does anyone know if you can get an equal number of hits by having the name of the site, as opposed to the domain name, include "missing persons"?

[Kochanski]

Wonderful!

I think the name will be very important. It should somehow have missing persons in it.

Let's brainstorm.

How about

Rational Resources for Missing Person Assistance

[Kochanski]

Does anyone know if you can get an equal number of hits by having the name of the site, as opposed to the domain name, include "missing persons"?

I believe if you have keywords specified with the website you should get good hits from searches.

[Luke T.]

www.missingpersons.org is taken.

www.missingpersons.com and www.missingpersons.net are taken but don't look like they are being actively used.

[CFLarsen]

Great. shoot me a PM when that's ready to go up. I'll work on the webspace and the dot com.

First comes the information architecture. That depends on the content. Then, the design is done.

No worries, I know what I'm doing. :)

We will brainstorm with Kelly, and we'll reach a consensus on what the site should contain.

Wonderful!

I think the name will be very important. It should somehow have missing persons in it.

Hmm....if you want it to be a single-missing-person site, sure. But if you want to reach a broader audience, it should be more general.

But definitely hard-hitting. Let's not mince words here.

Does anyone know if you can get an equal number of hits by having the name of the site, as opposed to the domain name, include "missing persons"?

Don't worry about that. There are ways (ahemn) to ensure a high Goggle-hit.

[Kelly]

Shall we have a forum on there for parents of missing kids?

This is good, too, however, I ask that we refer to the missing as "missing persons" rather than just missing children. There are literally a thousand resource sites for missing children, but few for the missing in general and/or missing adults. That leads to the desperation factor, as LE, media, and orgs provide less, and sometime no help at all.

[Kelly]

Do you think this is too long? It does not appear to be taken.

www.psychicsandmissingpersons.com

[Ducky]

Do you think this is too long? It does not appear to be taken.

www.psychicsandmissingpersons.com



A little long, but easy to remember. You know, we could use the initials of the site's title. For example, for "Rational Response and Help for Families of Missing Persons" you could do RRHFMP.com or something like that.

just an idea.

[Luke T.]

Do you think this is too long? It does not appear to be taken.

www.psychicsandmissingpersons.com

That name will attract a lot of believers in psychics.

Imagine a hundred WanderinWTFs muddying the water...

[Ducky]

I also want to reiterate that aside from CFLarson's site we should definately have a forum on there where the families of missing persons can create a community base.

Also, if you loko through my stupidly high post count, I relish in beating down woo trolls.

Best of both worlds.

[Ducky]

That will attract a lot of believers in psychics.

Imagine a hundred WanderinWTFs muddying the water...



I think no matter what the name, the intent of the site will do that anyway.

As for a hundred wanderingwtfs, bring it on.

[De_Bunk]

How about something like...


PleaseComeHome.com / net / org


DB

[Kochanski]

Do you think this is too long? It does not appear to be taken.

www.psychicsandmissingpersons.com

I would say that is spot on. Not too long.

[Ducky]

I would say that is spot on. Not too long.



Shall I buy it then?

[Kelly]

I think no matter what the name, the intent of the site will do that anyway.

As for a hundred wanderingwtfs, bring it on.

Luke has a good point and is is something we should ponder. I do also agree that in the end, they'll come anyway, just as Wanderin came here.

There could be a separate place for them to post so they would not pollute the other threads/subforums.

The privacy of the families (if they were to post there) should be protected at all costs. I would not want them to be PMing family members, etc. That would be awful.

Let's think this through.

[Ducky]

Luke has a good point and is is something we should ponder. I do also agree that in the end, they'll come anyway, just as Wanderin came here.

There could be a separate place for them to post so they would not pollute the other threads/subforums.

The privacy of the families (if they were to post there) should be protected at all costs. I would not want them to be PMing family members, etc. That would be awful.

Let's think this through.



It's all in the membership agreement we come up with. We can explicitly state that this is not a forum to offer services or prove psychic abilities. When that's violated, they're gone and the post buried.

ETA:

Except for something akin to a flame wars section where they can duke it out. A sort of subforum.

[CFLarsen]

A little long, but easy to remember. You know, we could use the initials of the site's title. For example, for "Rational Response and Help for Families of Missing Persons" you could do RRHFMP.com or something like that.

just an idea.

If you want an acronym, it has to be catchy and pronounceable.

[meg]

what about

www.twicevictims.org - referring to that quote posted about how these people are being victimized twice?

[Luke T.]

The last thing the family of a missing person needs when they come to a website designed to help them avoid predators is to be pounced on by a pack of wolves like Wanderin.

The name should say it all. www.secondwavepredators.com, or .org.

And anyone who solicits should be immediately banned.

[Luke T.]

what about

www.twicevictims.org - referring to that quote posted about how these people are being victimized twice?


Great minds think alike. :)

[Kelly]

It's all in the membership agreement we come up with. We can explicitly state that this is not a forum to offer services or prove psychic abilities. When that's violated, they're gone and the post buried.

ETA:

Except for something akin to a flame wars section where they can duke it out. A sort of subforum.

Family members and believers in the general public can lurk and watch the action. Everyone will learn something, that is except for the diehard types.

I say buy the domain, but I'm not the queen diva here. :rolleyes:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

How about http://www.psychicscannotfindmissingpersons.com/

[CFLarsen]

Shall I buy it then?
Let's sleep on this. That's always a good idea. ;)

[Kelly]

The last two names presented by Luke and Meg are worthy.

I'm thinking.......

Edited to say I agree with Claus.

Editing to further state that perhaps it should be left clean, meaning that it's a place to present the info to the families, period. Psychics could be referred to this forum to do their sparring.That may be the best option. Family members who want to observe this here could as lurkers if they wish.

[Ducky]

Let's sleep on this. That's always a good idea. ;)



What's this "sleep" you speak of?

[Ducky]

Family members and believers in the general public can lurk and watch the action. Everyone will learn something, that is except for the diehard types.

I say buy the domain, but I'm not the queen diva here. :rolleyes:



Sure you are. :)

Chck your private message for my email and phone #. you Claus and I can talk more about this and work the whole thing out. I have no problem being a forum admin for this site and aggressively enforcing that we do not tolerate trolls like wandering. Plus, I've got the time and the motivation.

[Hawk one]

Luke has a good point and is is something we should ponder. I do also agree that in the end, they'll come anyway, just as Wanderin came here.

There could be a separate place for them to post so they would not pollute the other threads/subforums.

The privacy of the families (if they were to post there) should be protected at all costs. I would not want them to be PMing family members, etc. That would be awful.

Let's think this through.

Having a set of at least 5 strict moderators will be required no matter what name you take.

Speaking of which, I volunteer for modding. It's about the only thing I can contribute with, and I have the spare time for it. Of course, don't bother thinking too much about that kind of detail yet, as it's still a bit far in the future. ;)

Edited to clarify post.

[CFLarsen]

psychicsdonotsolvecrimes

[Ducky]

www.psychicfrauds.com

Is that taken?

[CFLarsen]

What's this "sleep" you speak of?
An imaginary concept, I know. But I have heard of people who actually do it.

[CFLarsen]

www.psychicfrauds.com

Is that taken?

You better have the evidence that is strong enough to hold up in court.

[Ducky]

You better have the evidence that is strong enough to hold up in court.



Good point, we don't want to get hit with libel lawsuits.

[The_Fire]

www.psychicpredators.com (http://www.psychicpredators.com) ?

Shameless plug:
CFLarsen: I'm in training (finishes at dec 01 this year) as a webintegrator at Medieskolerne in Viborg. Let me know if I can help.

Knows ASP classic with Access and are currently making good headway on PHP/Mysql (ETA: Login systems are currently giving me a headache).
Also knows CSS, XHTML etc.

[Ducky]

www.psychicpredators.com ?

Shameless plug:
CFLarsen: I'm in training (finishes at dec 01 this year) as a webintegrator at Medieskolerne in Viborg. Let me know if I can help.

Knows ASP classic with Access and are currently making good headway on PHP/Mysql.
Also knows CSS, XHTML etc.


Thanks Fire. When I set up the forum software, I may email you some questions.

[The_Fire]

Fowlsound: I'll help in anyway I can. Maybe I can get some of the other guys interested as well. A couple of them are downright scary when it comes to code....

[CFLarsen]

www.psychicpredators.com (http://www.psychicpredators.com) ?

Good one!

CFLarsen: I'm in training (finishes at dec 01 this year) as a webintegrator at Medieskolerne in Viborg. Let me know if I can help.

Gotcha.

Knows ASP classic with Access and are currently making good headway on PHP/Mysql (ETA: Login systems are currently giving me a headache).
Also knows CSS, XHTML etc.

Ewwwl.....(makes sign of cross to fight off heretics) :)

[The_Fire]

Let me guess: Its got to do with microblows and Asp? :D

[CFLarsen]

Let me guess: Its got to do with microblows and Asp? :D
No, no, it's a religious thing. ;)

"psychicpredators" is excellent.

[Kelly]

Sure you are. :)

Chck your private message for my email and phone #. you Claus and I can talk more about this and work the whole thing out. I have no problem being a forum admin for this site and aggressively enforcing that we do not tolerate trolls like wandering. Plus, I've got the time and the motivation.

I'll try you again in a bit.

So many good ideas flowing here.

I'm still a bit torn between having a clean site and the forum since this one exists.

I believe that I have caught up on older posts with questions for me or other items I need to comment on. If I forgot one, remind me, and accept my apology.

I'm taking a break from the PC...been on it all day long. I'll be back later on.

This is what it's all about...working together for a common cause.

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. (not literally, of course!)

[Ducky]

I'll try you again in a bit.

So many good ideas flowing here.

I'm still a bit torn between having a clean site and the forum since this one exists.

I believe that I have caught up on older posts with questions for me or other items I need to comment on. If I forgot one, remind me, and accept my apology.

I'm taking a break from the PC...been on it all day long. I'll be back later on.

This is what it's all about...working together for a common cause.

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. (not literally, of course!)




HOly crap that was fast! You gotta give me time to turn my ringer on!

Ok, best times to call me are after 11:30pm CST or between 9am CST and 1:00pm CST.

[Katachresis]

Good, take a rest, Kelly. You've had a long day.

BTW, I've never been more proud to be part of the JREF family than today.

Kisses to the girls, and handshakes to the guys.

Bravo.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I'll try you again in a bit.

I'm still a bit torn between having a clean site and the forum since this one exists.

Kelly, et al,

You should definitely have a forum at your new site. The kinds of things people will post there will be quite different from what is posted here.

BTW, you guys rule! If I had something worthwhile to offer, I would. Once it's up, maybe I'll join the forum.

[Ducky]

Kelly, et al,

You should definitely have a forum at your new site. The kinds of things people will post there will be quite different from what is posted here.

BTW, you guys rule! If I had something worthwhile to offer, I would. Once it's up, maybe I'll join the forum.



I Agree. The JREF forums are a very well established and productive community, but while there is an overlap of intention between the JREF forum and a forum that would be on the new website, they are two different motivations and two different approaches.

I think a forum, properly moderated, on that site would be a very amazing thing, especially considering we could build an online community of those who have missing loved ones that would be not only productive and helpful, but well grounded.

It would be a very powerful forum to read.

[Mercutio]

KellyJ (and the rest here)--

I would like your permission (even though it is public) to print out this thread for use in two of my classes. Anyone who would prefer I not use their comments (I'll probably change names anyway, since something like "fowlsound" might be seen as distracting from the serious nature), please let me know (PM is fine).

Katachresis, I second your comment; this is a good thing to be part of.

[Ducky]

KellyJ (and the rest here)--

I would like your permission (even though it is public) to print out this thread for use in two of my classes. Anyone who would prefer I not use their comments (I'll probably change names anyway, since something like "fowlsound" might be seen as distracting from the serious nature), please let me know (PM is fine).

Katachresis, I second your comment; this is a good thing to be part of.



You have my permission as long as you change my name to "The Exhalted God-Like Hotness That Is David."

[The_Fire]

Permission granted.

[Mercutio]

You have my permission as long as you change my name to "The Exhalted God-Like Hotness That Is David."
Done.

[Hawk one]

Even though I only made one single measly post with a single measly offer, you can print out that if you want to, Merc.

[HeyLeroy]

Fowlsound, CFLarsen, The_Fire, you guys just keep giving me more reasons to admire you all. KellyJ, I think you've come to the right place.

Roadtoad gave me an idea. I live in a border town, (Windsor, Ontario, North America's busiest crossing) and there's a truck-stop just around the corner from where I work. I'd be happy to put up a flier there, if you'd like. Not much, I know, but anything to help.

[Ducky]

Fowlsound, CFLarsen, The_Fire, you guys just keep giving me more reasons to admire you all. KellyJ, I think you've come to the right place.

Roadtoad gave me an idea. I live in a border town, (Windsor, Ontario, North America's busiest crossing) and there's a truck-stop just around the corner from where I work. I'd be happy to put up a flier there, if you'd like. Not much, I know, but anything to help.


Heh. I used to live in Detroit.

You should also contact the border patrol and ask if they will accept a photo of the missing person and watch for them.

[Kelly]

KellyJ (and the rest here)--

I would like your permission (even though it is public) to print out this thread for use in two of my classes. Anyone who would prefer I not use their comments (I'll probably change names anyway, since something like "fowlsound" might be seen as distracting from the serious nature), please let me know (PM is fine).

Katachresis, I second your comment; this is a good thing to be part of.

I don't have a problem with it. I am curious though, as to what type of class it is that this thread would be discussed.

On another interelated topic:

I sent my inquiry/request out to the families of the missing. I've had several positive responses and indications that stories will be forthcoming.

[HeyLeroy]

Heh. I used to live in Detroit.

You should also contact the border patrol and ask if they will accept a photo of the missing person and watch for them.

Good idea. I have friends who work at Customs on this side of the border.

[Blackwell]

KellyJ,
Hello and welcome to the forum! As a father of three, I can only imagine what you've had to go through in the last few years. I'd love to help in any little way I can. Fowl, Larsen - I'm a graphic/web designer, so if there's anything I can help with, let me know. I'm less technically minded than creative - I know a little scripting (for forms, etc - just enough to be dangerous), but I've been a graphic designer for almost 20 years.

A note on the domain name - whatever you decide on, if someone thinks of another domain worth snapping up before someone else gets their hands on it (psychicsarelyingfilthyfraudsandshouldrotinthelowe stdepthsofhell.com has a nice ring to it), you can always buy it, too, and redirect to the main site. Domains certainly are cheap enough now.

[Roadtoad]

Okay, as soon as I replace an ink cartridge, we're in business.

Expect a report, Kelly, as soon as I can get something up and running.

Damn, I'm proud of this crowd.

[Luke T.]

Psychics are not the only ones who prey on these people, so I don't know if psychicpredators.com or anything with psychics in the title is a good idea.

The site should also touch on predatory private investigators, lawyers, media, etc.

I know as JREF members, and looking at the topic we are in and so on, we tend to focus more on paranormal frauds, but the web site in question is going to be focused on protecting these people from ALL frauds. Right?

[Ducky]

As far as I understood, this website is specifically about the psychic frauds.

[meg]

So I'm thinking about content a little bit here.

I'm kind of imagining a site that works in conjunction with Kelly's and other missing persons sites as a resource for support for

1. Persons that have a missing loved one and are considering whether to let psychic's help in the investigation or not.

Facts, informational articles in general about how psychics don't do anything useful, articles relating stories by victims of psychics, lots and lots of links to other good information already out there. Stuff aimed at the general public as an audience, and as family members of missing people as an audience.

and

2. Skeptics that wish to work as support for 1 by actively debunking psychics attempting to prey on 1, as well as doing some community work promoting the word in general that psychics are fakes.

Articles about debunking (how to kind of stuff) psychic detectives, perhaps. Simple test protocols, maybe? Sample letter templates for sending to news media, elected officials, police chiefs, etc, for use when news releases come out that "xxx psychic is currently working closely with the xxx police department on xxx case". Lots and lots of links to other good information out there, and to here.

Just kind of brainstorming here. Feel free to pick this all apart. Is the forum in support of audience 1 or 2? Or both?

Meg

[Ducky]

Choice 1 seems most in line with what Kelly and I have talked about.

I think we should stick with that.;

[Hawk one]

Psychics are not the only ones who prey on these people, so I don't know if psychicpredators.com or anything with psychics in the title is a good idea.

The site should also touch on predatory private investigators, lawyers, media, etc.

I know as JREF members, and looking at the topic we are in and so on, we tend to focus more on paranormal frauds, but the web site in question is going to be focused on protecting these people from ALL frauds. Right?

Luke: I thought the same as fowl, that the site was to be only about "psychics". And to expand a bit, psychics are being singled out here because unlike PIs and lawyers, -all- psychics are per definitions predators. Of course, I do understand that it could be a good thing to warn about the "bad apples" of other groups as well, but I would think that for now, let's focus on the worst of the worst, and see if we can put in that other stuff later.

And even though I agree that such a site could touch upon the dangers of f.ex. a bad PI, I think that as long as the main issue (i.e. 90% or more of the content) is about the dangers of psychics, this justifies a domain name with "psychic" in it.


Edited to put in quote from Luke, so it's clear who I'm responding to. And to fix some bad language.

[Mercutio]

I don't have a problem with it. I am curious though, as to what type of class it is that this thread would be discussed.
The class attempts to use a particular approach to...changing the world. Your thread here will serve as an example of how one person can make a difference...and how much can be accomplished when that one person is able to get other knowledgeable people to offer their assistance.

(I can tell you more about this if you wish, but I would prefer PM, so as not to derail this thread.)

[Kelly]

Luke: I thought the same as fowl, that the site was to be only about "psychics". And to expand a bit, psychics are being singled out here because unlike PIs and lawyers, -all- psychics are per definitions predators. Of course, I do understand that it could be a good thing to warn about the "bad apples" of other groups as well, but I would think that for now, let's focus on the worst of the worst, and see if we can put in that other stuff later.

I agree with starting with the core. Later on the others can be added.

For future reference, does anyone know of any articles about the other scammers or a checklist of sorts that covers what to look for?

Meg also has some good ideas that I want to think about.

[Kelly]

The class attempts to use a particular approach to...changing the world. Your thread here will serve as an example of how one person can make a difference...and how much can be accomplished when that one person is able to get other knowledgeable people to offer their assistance.
(I can tell you more about this if you wish, but I would prefer PM, so as not to derail this thread.)

I don't want to derail the thread either, and appreciate your thoughtfulness in regards to that matter.

Assuming you are referring to me, (bolded text) I thank you for the honor, and respectfully defer it to my son. If it were not for him, I would not be doing this work. I know that wherever he is, he wholeheartedly approves.

I'm also quite happy with the way this has gone.

Maybe Sylvia (Ick) Browne did do something good, although not intentionally. Had it not been for researching her "work" on the Internet, I would not have come across the Million Dollar Challenge, and then this forum.

Cheers to all! :clap:

[CFLarsen]

KellyJ (and the rest here)--

I would like your permission (even though it is public) to print out this thread for use in two of my classes.

"For a price, Ugarte. For a price."

(Go ahead, I just wanted to quote Humphrey Bogart in "Casablanca"...)

[chillzero]

Can I please make a modest suggestion for the domain name?

How about Rational Action for Missing Persons.

It can be abbreviated to RAMP, which has several connotations - ramp up the effort, using a ramp to negotiate humps (hump = UK for bad times), and some others.
I agree with those saying that the mention of psychics should be withheld from the title - I think if I ever needed to find this kind of resource I would exclude 'psychic' from my search criteria.

Also - I'm about to send Tony Youens a PM now, to direct his attention here.

[Mariah]

KellyJ and everyone:

If you don't already own this excellent NOVA epsiode featuring Randi and some of the world's best psychics of the time (mid seventies) consider purchasing a copy via the Amazon link below or via the Randi site.

It contains the section of the episode where Johnny Carson helped Randi debunk Uri Geller, and it has several scenes where Russia's best psychics of the time are exposed. One scene shows clearly how deceived the psychics themselves were--a real must-see.

Purchasing it would be like a high-five to Randi, and will help keep it in print. I've watched its sales level rise as some of us have gone in and reviewed it.

I think it shows what Randi is really about--helping people identify and avoid the tricks of these people. I've found nothing that SHOWS how psychics work better. I believe it's well worth the modest price to have it in your collection.

As I've recommended before on the forum, buy a copy and see if your local library will add it to their collection.

As I gradually revamp my website to promote critical thinking, I'm going to make it a featured recommendation. Remember, people will view a video who would never read one of Randi's books.

I'm for getting that video out there. ---Sherry A ("Mariah")

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304463189/sr=8-1/qid=1140785372/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3907182-6318250?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

[Roadtoad]

I like the idea of calling the site/org RAMP. I would add that if a database of missing person files could be added, in PDF format, it would help get the message out further, ideally by making people aware of those missing. Either that, or link to those groups that already have flyers available, such as Kelly's done.

Meanwhile, let me see if I can contact some Bears I know. They might be willing to read through this, and offer some help, too.

[Mariah]

Correction: NOVA: Secrets of the Psychics video featuring Randi. I was wrong. This video is from 1993, not the 70s as I put in the earlier post.

[CFLarsen]

Tsk.

[Kelly]

Can I please make a modest suggestion for the domain name?

How about Rational Action for Missing Persons.

It can be abbreviated to RAMP, which has several connotations - ramp up the effort, using a ramp to negotiate humps (hump = UK for bad times), and some others.
I agree with those saying that the mention of psychics should be withheld from the title - I think if I ever needed to find this kind of resource I would exclude 'psychic' from my search criteria.

Also - I'm about to send Tony Youens a PM now, to direct his attention here.

Thanks for sending the PM, Cabby.

I liked RAMP, but www.ramp.com appears to be parked at godaddy.com. Darn!

[CFLarsen]

Kelly,

You got mail.

[Kelly]

KellyJ and everyone:

If you don't already own this excellent NOVA epsiode featuring Randi and some of the world's best psychics of the time (mid seventies) consider purchasing a copy via the Amazon link below or via the Randi site.

It contains the section of the episode where Johnny Carson helped Randi debunk Uri Geller, and it has several scenes where Russia's best psychics of the time are exposed. One scene shows clearly how deceived the psychics themselves were--a real must-see.

Purchasing it would be like a high-five to Randi, and will help keep it in print. I've watched its sales level rise as some of us have gone in and reviewed it.

I think it shows what Randi is really about--helping people identify and avoid the tricks of these people. I've found nothing that SHOWS how psychics work better. I believe it's well worth the modest price to have it in your collection.

As I've recommended before on the forum, buy a copy and see if your local library will add it to their collection.

As I gradually revamp my website to promote critical thinking, I'm going to make it a featured recommendation. Remember, people will view a video who would never read one of Randi's books.

I'm for getting that video out there. ---Sherry A ("Mariah")

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304463189/sr=8-1/qid=1140785372/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3907182-6318250?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

I think this would be good to have for another reason: We could loan it to a family who is sitting on the fence about this issue.

Thanks, Mariah.

[Mariah]

Thanks, Kelly. Also, I should add that it was actually made in 1993, not in the mid-seventies, which I keep trying to tell CFLarsen, who just does NOT seem to get it!

[Katachresis]

Hi Kelly, re: Missing Children Notice Program

I got this today:

Hi Kevin,
Per you comments below, I agree that the PowerPoint presentation GSA provides for use in kiosks in the main lobby of GSA-owned Federal buildings throughout the nation should be easily viewed by those wishing to view the presentation.
The GSA building managers of GSA-owned buildings would probably be the best persons to address this type of concern to. I would suggest that you get in touch with the X Building manager, Michael xxxxxx at (xxx) xxx-xxxx or by email at xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@gsa.gov (xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@gsa.gov). He should be able to address the issue of how the kiosk is arranged in the xxx Building.
I've cc'd Mr. x in on this email.
I hope this helps. If you have any further comments and/or suggestions, especially regarding how to improve the GSA Missing Child Notice Program, please let me know.
Thanks.
Michael Saling
Information Technology Specialist
GSA Missing Child Notice Program Webmaster U.S. General Services Administration Public Buildings Service Heartland Region Kansas City, Missouri

(ETA: this is what is essentially shown 15 feet in the air:
http://r6.gsa.gov/pbs/kids/default-1024x768.asp )

I've emailed the local administator of the video screen, haven't heard back.

Also, I was able to post Jerald Gelb at the Shelter, and left my info, but haven't heard from the person in charge of the board yet either.

I'll work on both fronts again Monday.

Have a good weekend if we don't talk again.

Kevin

[Kelly]

I like the idea of calling the site/org RAMP. I would add that if a database of missing person files could be added, in PDF format, it would help get the message out further, ideally by making people aware of those missing. Either that, or link to those groups that already have flyers available, such as Kelly's done.

Meanwhile, let me see if I can contact some Bears I know. They might be willing to read through this, and offer some help, too.

Unfortunately, a database of missing persons would be too monumental of a task. If you ever go to the NCMEC or NCMA sites, you'll think it astonishing the number of missing persons there. That, however, is a mere drop in the bucket. Because of the issue I mentioned yesterday in regards to LE not giving referrals to families when the report is taken, the majority of cases never show up on these sites.

For example, in my home state, Nebraska, there are approx. 700 open missing person's cases, but there are only 11 listings of missing persons shown on the NE pages for NCMA and NCMEC. They say that every 30 seconds in the USA a child disappears, and who knows how many adults.

Anyway, off the soap box now and back to the site ideas.

What I am thinking for starters consists of the following:

An introductory/purpose statement

Links to articles/papers debunking psychics, particularly as it relates to missing persons

Link to this forum

Liinks to worthy missing person's organization (You might be shocked to know that there are predators right here in the midst of our cause.)

A Steps to Take list for families of the missing just in case they have come across this site before some of the others

Am I missing something?

Oh, and going back to some things discussed earlier by Meg and others, an idea that is brewing is to have a brief online form that a family member can fill out if they want to discuss or refer a particular psychic to volunteers from this forum who could gently show them the error of their ways. I'm still thinking this one out.

One family I know has a person who handles all psychic inquiries. I believe they filter out the nutcases, but I don't know what they do about the others. I do suspect this person is a believer, so maybe they work with the psychic to gather info. Obviously, that is not the approach we would take.

[Kelly]

Kelly,

You got mail.

I do? Where? Nothing in email from you.

[Kelly]

Hi Kelly, re: Missing Children Notice Program

I got this today:

Hi Kevin,
Per you comments below, I agree that the PowerPoint presentation GSA provides for use in kiosks in the main lobby of GSA-owned Federal buildings throughout the nation should be easily viewed by those wishing to view the presentation.
The GSA building managers of GSA-owned buildings would probably be the best persons to address this type of concern to. I would suggest that you get in touch with the X Building manager, Michael xxxxxx at (xxx) xxx-xxxx or by email at xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@gsa.gov (xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@gsa.gov). He should be able to address the issue of how the kiosk is arranged in the xxx Building.
I've cc'd Mr. x in on this email.
I hope this helps. If you have any further comments and/or suggestions, especially regarding how to improve the GSA Missing Child Notice Program, please let me know.
Thanks.
Michael Saling
Information Technology Specialist
GSA Missing Child Notice Program Webmaster U.S. General Services Administration Public Buildings Service Heartland Region Kansas City, Missouri

(ETA: this is what is essentially shown 15 feet in the air:
http://r6.gsa.gov/pbs/kids/default-1024x768.asp )

I've emailed the local administator of the video screen, haven't heard back.

Also, I was able to post Jerald Gelb at the Shelter, and left my info, but haven't heard from the person in charge of the board yet either.

I'll work on both fronts again Monday.

Have a good weekend if we don't talk again.

Kevin

If anyone is curious, one of the things that Kevin is doing is trying to involve his local homeless shelter in our Come Home program. He posted one of the campaign posters at the shelter and gave them information about the program.

http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html

Thanks, Kevin!

[CFLarsen]

I do? Where? Nothing in email from you.
Oops. There's a little button that says "Send". It helps clicking on that.

Now you do.

[Kelly]

The issues with attracting even more vermin needs to be dicussed. In my writings, I will make it clear that we are not going to become an agency that investigates psychic's claims. I can imagine it getting very out of hand. I will nip it in the bud by letting them know that their emails will be deleted. At the same time, I don't want to give the appearance of not being open to the possibility. This may keep fence sitters from becoming defensive towards us. That may buy time to dazzle them with logic and facts.

Here's my idea on the latter: I will encourage those persons to come here and post their claims. That is, if the members here are ok with me referring them here.

I would say something such as:

"We understand that many people believe that psychics are effective in solving crimes and finding missing people. Please keep in mind that the goal of this series is to help families understand techniques used by persons making these claims and make better decisions about the use of psychics.

Project Jason and its volunteers cannot act as a clearinghouse for persons claiming success in using paranormal means to locate missing persons. We will be unable to respond to emails or other correspondence sent to us from persons making these claims or persons offering information about or referrals to psychics.

We instead invite those persons to present their evidence to the members of the James Randi Education Foundation. They have a forum available for you to discuss your claims. http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7 "

Would that be acceptable to the members and the foundation?

I received word from a representative of the foundation that this is perfectly fine with them.

(This discussion was in relation to my blog series.)

[CFLarsen]

Thanks, Kelly. Also, I should add that it was actually made in 1993, not in the mid-seventies, which I keep trying to tell CFLarsen, who just does NOT seem to get it!
You are walking a fine line. :p

[Mariah]

You are walking a fine line. :p

I'm too fat to walk a fine line.

[Kelly]

Good news!

I just spoke to Marc Klaas' right hand man, and he is sure Marc will participate in the blog series, although we can't say to what degree because of his busy schedule.

[rjh01]

Apologies if this is slightly off topic. What does happen to people who disappear?

As for a name keep it slightly vague so that it does not become meaningless when you expand a little eg QANTAS - Queensland and Northern Tertiary Airline Service is an example where they failed to heed this advice.

[Mariah]

Wonderful news, Kelly! Yes, that's great news!

[Kelly]

Apologies if this is slightly off topic. What does happen to people who disappear?

As for a name keep it slightly vague so that it does not become meaningless when you expand a little eg QANTAS - Queensland and Northern Tertiary Airline Service is an example where they failed to heed this advice.

NO one has stats on what happened to the missing persons. Stats on adults are not required to be kept by LE. Stats on children are, but in my surveys, I found this wasn't always happening either. When I speak of these stats, I am talking about new cases entered. No one keeps stats on who ranaway vs who was abducted, etc when the case if resolved.

Up front, (going from memory) I think that 80% are called runaways, 17% are parental abductions, and 3% are non-family kidnappings. These stats are children only. Sadly, almost all but the younger children are pegged as runaways in absence of proof, so the 80% figure is not correct. We just don't know what is correct.

I believe we are going to go with www.psychicpredators.com but thank you for the idea.

[Aussie Thinker]

rjh01...

You got your QANTAS acronym slightly wrong.

As for a name keep it slightly vague so that it does not become meaningless when you expand a little eg QANTAS - Queensland and Northern Tertiary Airline Service is an example where they failed to heed this advice.

But when it means "Queensland and Northern Territory (a state and territory in Australia) Airline Service" it probably makes a little more sense?

[Kelly]

I have received a family's story about Sylvia Browne and the Montel Show in which they, apparently, retaped her portion after the fact.

Would anyone want to write a guest piece for the blog series about TV psychics and the tricks they use? It would include editing, audience plants, use of earpices, hidden microphones, etc.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Would anyone want to write a guest piece for the blog series about TV psychics and the tricks they use? It would include editing, audience plants, use of earpices, hidden microphones, etc.

Kelly,

If you need anyone to infiltrate any of the New York based TV shows (like Montel), let me know. I'm just a few train stops away. And I love the thought of being an "inside man". :D

[Kelly]

Kelly,

If you need anyone to infiltrate any of the New York based TV shows (like Montel), let me know. I'm just a few train stops away. And I love the thought of being an "inside man". :D

That would be fun to do, but unless some family member is going to be on the show and tells me, I don't know when they are having a missing person segment. What I do know is that traditionally, SB does a Wednesday show. I did hear that they are not having her do missing person readings at this time. (That may have been her demand.)

They were also on seasonal hiatus, and I believe are to return this week. http://www.montelshow.com/misc/tickets/ is the page about getting tickets to go, and you'd almost have to see if they would tell you which taping is going to be with her.

If everything goes right, I would like to start my blog series on 3/6, and depending on how many stories I get, it could go on for a week, maybe 10 days.

Thanks.

[The_Fire]

I actually think that getting testimonys from people with experience of the non-results of the frauds is a good idea.
Maybe the new site could have an article section for this purpose?

[Kelly]

I actually think that getting testimonys from people with experience of the non-results of the frauds is a good idea.
Maybe the new site could have an article section for this purpose?

This is an excellent idea and I'm sure we will do this over time.

I'm not getting very many stories at this point. I am wondering if it is because people are

A) embarassed to admit they used psychics
B) afraid the psychic will sue them
C) doesn't want to appear to have closed the door to psychics in case they're for real and one of them could help find their missing loved one
D) feels it is a private issue/decision
E) something else I am not thinking of

[Gr8wight]

I'm not getting very many stories at this point. I am wondering if it is because people are

A) embarassed to admit they used psychics
B) afraid the psychic will sue them
C) doesn't want to appear to have closed the door to psychics in case they're for real and one of them could help find their missing loved one
D) feels it is a private issue/decision
E) something else I am not thinking of

Many people who use psychics and get no results make their own excuses for the psychics' failure. Psychics are experts at emotional manipulation. They convince their 'marks' of their own good intentions, often spinning extensive stories of how they have gone through hardship in order to 'help' the people. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the people who have used psychics, even though they have not had any results, feel kindly towards the psychic (or at least some kind of obligation) and do not want to say anything bad about them.

[Kelly]

Many people who use psychics and get no results make their own excuses for the psychics' failure. Psychics are experts at emotional manipulation. They convince their 'marks' of their own good intentions, often spinning extensive stories of how they have gone through hardship in order to 'help' the people. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the people who have used psychics, even though they have not had any results, feel kindly towards the psychic (or at least some kind of obligation) and do not want to say anything bad about them.

I hadn't thought of this, but it does make sense. It's a relative to the odd dependency relationship between an abductor and the abducted. (There is a name for this syndrome, but it alludes me right now.)

[Mercutio]

Stockholm syndrome.

[Mercutio]

I had a friend who died young, and whose parents, when prayer failed to bring him back to life, blamed themselves for their lack of faith.

This was without prodding from some other party. If the psychic fails to find a child, any doubting at all by the parent may be seized upon by the parasite, to actively cast blame on the parent, induce guilt to motivate further payment, and to keep the leech's record intact.

I think that, once you have a few stories up there, people will see the extent to which the vultures have lied to them, and will eventually open up and share their own stories of victimization by these tapeworms.

[Kelly]

I had a friend who died young, and whose parents, when prayer failed to bring him back to life, blamed themselves for their lack of faith.

I know a woman who says if you pray hard enough, you'll get the answers. I find it insulting.

This was without prodding from some other party. If the psychic fails to find a child, any doubting at all by the parent may be seized upon by the parasite, to actively cast blame on the parent, induce guilt to motivate further payment, and to keep the leech's record intact..

In one of my own stories, which I will lead with, this very thing happened. I was appalled that the psychic would try to turn my own family member against me.

I think that, once you have a few stories up there, people will see the extent to which the vultures have lied to them, and will eventually open up and share their own stories of victimization by these tapeworms.

I have one story submitted, and 4 others promised. Perhaps after seeing mine, some will come clean about it.

[Roadtoad]

If John Walsh hadn't decided there might be some value in "psychics," he had a great story in his book Tears of Rage, which pretty much summed it all up.

I'll post the pertinent points here if it's legal, and appropriate.

[prewitt81]

I'd like to help in any way possible. This summer marks 10 years since my cousin Morgan Violi (http://www.robertsonsheriff.com/special/Violi.htm) was kidnapped and murdered. I remember vividly when my aunt was told that a psychic was interested in the case. I wasn't the hardcore skeptic that I am now, but I never bought into psychic phenomena. I wanted to speak up against the idea, but decided that it wasn't my place.

I've regretted it ever since. I'd like the opportunity to redeem myself. I'll mod a forum, if you have it, or anything else that I could do to help (even if it's just to donate money).

[Roadtoad]

The weird thing about what you posted, prewitt, is that the suspect looks like a guy I used to work with. (Except the dude I worked with had no chin, and drove a very late model Dodge pickup.) I doubt it's the same person, but then, you never can tell. I'll keep an eye peeled.

If he's killed once, he'll do it again.

[prewitt81]

I had a hard time letting go of the concept of Hell simply because this guy is still walking around. What I wouldn't do for just three swings with a Louisville Slugger. . .

[Kelly]

I'd like to help in any way possible. This summer marks 10 years since my cousin Morgan Violi (http://www.robertsonsheriff.com/special/Violi.htm) was kidnapped and murdered. I remember vividly when my aunt was told that a psychic was interested in the case. I wasn't the hardcore skeptic that I am now, but I never bought into psychic phenomena. I wanted to speak up against the idea, but decided that it wasn't my place.

I've regretted it ever since. I'd like the opportunity to redeem myself. I'll mod a forum, if you have it, or anything else that I could do to help (even if it's just to donate money).

Welcome, Prewitt81.

What a beautiful child! I am sorry your family has endured this tragedy, and then also not to have the killer(s) brought to justice.

It's obvious that psychics could not resolve the case. Is it possible that the family would come forward with their story at this time, or would it cause problems with relationships or great pain to ask?

I will be starting a series on the topic on my blog in early March. In conjunction with that, we'll release to the public the related website. At this time, we have not made a decision about having a forum there. We may just start out with basic info, and then add on from there.

We would be happy to have your help in whatever manner you feel appropriate.

Thank you.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Kelly]

If he's killed once, he'll do it again.

Who knows how many serial killers are free, looking for their next victim. It's funny how psychics can't smoke them out.

[prewitt81]

Kelly,

We don't see my aunt much these days as she was married into the family until my uncle (who wasn't Morgan's father) passed away. I have probably only seen her a handfull of times since the tragedy happened, and have been timid to bring the subject up. Yet I have always wondered if she ever went through with the psychic consultation, what was said, and what she thinks of psychics now. Perhaps once the website is launched, I can try to contact her through one of my cousins to let her look and see what she thinks.

That's probably the best I can do on that front at the moment.

Jeff Prewitt

[Kelly]

Kelly,

We don't see my aunt much these days as she was married into the family until my uncle (who wasn't Morgan's father) passed away. I have probably only seen her a handfull of times since the tragedy happened, and have been timid to bring the subject up. Yet I have always wondered if she ever went through with the psychic consultation, what was said, and what she thinks of psychics now. Perhaps once the website is launched, I can try to contact her through one of my cousins to let her look and see what she thinks.

That's probably the best I can do on that front at the moment.

Jeff Prewitt

Be sure to hang around, Jeff, for when the times comes and we need you. You have that unique perpective in that you understand on a personal level. Thank you.

[Katachresis]

OK, first I stink at tech stuff.

Second, I can't print:
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html
without losing the right side last few letters. It might be me.

I did selection out the text to print, but is this my problem or a site problem?

...and I apologize for not reading posts after last Friday, I will later.

[Kelly]

OK, first I stink at tech stuff.

Second, I can't print:
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html
without losing the right side last few letters. It might be me.

I did selection out the text to print, but is this my problem or a site problem?

...and I apologize for not reading posts after last Friday, I will later.

This is something I've always wondered how to do. I think it might have to do with the screen resolution, but I am not sure.

Anyone else for this question? Thanks, K!

[sophia8]

OK, first I stink at tech stuff.

Second, I can't print:
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html
without losing the right side last few letters. It might be me.

I did selection out the text to print, but is this my problem or a site problem?

...and I apologize for not reading posts after last Friday, I will later.
Try going to Page Setup in your printer options and narrowing the margins.

[Katachresis]

Tried that, same result.

[Katachresis]

Kelly, I wanted to let you know that as far as your main goal, bringing a skeptic eye to psychics and the missing, I cannot help. But I know others here will, so that's good.

Instead I have been working on the Come Home part here in Boston. Doing the leg work, and making the calls. Today was actually great. I've made contacts in 2 shelters, and once I'm sure of my footing there, I will find others.

I wish I could help on the skeptic front, but, hey, I'll do what I can.

As always, you pick your battles. This small part is a battle I choose to fight.

[Kelly]

Kelly, I wanted to let you know that as far as your main goal, bringing a skeptic eye to psychics and the missing, I cannot help. But I know others here will, so that's good.

Instead I have been working on the Come Home part here in Boston. Doing the leg work, and making the calls. Today was actually great. I've made contacts in 2 shelters, and once I'm sure of my footing there, I will find others.

I wish I could help on the skeptic front, but, hey, I'll do what I can.

As always, you pick your battles. This small part is a battle I choose to fight.

That works for me. The more shelters we have on the program, the more effective. It seems there are quite a few here willing to help with the psychics, so we're good to go there.

I'm sure Boston has quite a few shelters, but we've never once been able to get one to sign up. The NE part of the country doesn't lack shelters, but we seem to do better in the south with sign-ups. Perhaps we can make up some ground.

Thank you!

[Katachresis]

Then stop staring at me.

[Kelly]

Then stop staring at me.

I have to keep watch somehow when I am not able to be here. :)

[rjh01]

OK, first I stink at tech stuff.

Second, I can't print:
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html
without losing the right side last few letters.
One solution is to change the page to landscape in page setup. Then it will print OK.

Another option is to highlight the text, press Cntl C to copy to the clipboard then go to Word and press Cntl V to paste. It will print OK there.

[Gr8wight]

One solution is to change the page to landscape in page setup. Then it will print OK.

Another option is to highlight the text, press Cntl C to copy to the clipboard then go to Word and press Cntl V to paste. It will print OK there.

You might have to turn on word wrap before printing.

[CFLarsen]

You might have to turn on word wrap before printing.
Is that Microsoft's version of saran wrap?

[Katachresis]

what I did was highlight the text, file, print, and check the Selection button rather than the All button.

[Kelly]

I heard from Tony Youens today. He said he would do a write up and post a link down the road. (Thanks, Cabby)

I also received a story from one of my families. I thought my experience was bad enough, but when I read this one, mine was a walk in the park!

[Katachresis]

OK, back to business.

re:
Hello Kevin - Thank you for making me aware of the missing persons locator
through "Project Jason" I have forwarded the same information along to
...snip...
New England Shelter for Homeless Veterans.

Kelly, is there anything else you need regarding this shelter?

Also, I still haven't heard from the other shelter I mentioned. 2 phone calls and one email. I think tomorrow will be a face-to-face meeting. I'll wear a nice tie, and my new super cool raincoat. It makes me feel like Neo in "the Matrix".

[Kelly]

OK, back to business.

re:
Hello Kevin - Thank you for making me aware of the missing persons locator
through "Project Jason" I have forwarded the same information along to
...snip...
New England Shelter for Homeless Veterans.

Kelly, is there anything else you need regarding this shelter?

Also, I still haven't heard from the other shelter I mentioned. 2 phone calls and one email. I think tomorrow will be a face-to-face meeting. I'll wear a nice tie, and my new super cool raincoat. It makes me feel like Neo in "the Matrix".

I will contact them, Kevin, and find out which email addresses they want to use.

LOL on the "Neo" look. As to the 2nd shelter, I wouldn't go any further than that. Sometimes they're all wrapped up in privacy laws, and they can also have the perception that we have persons on the program who are not really missing, such as women hiding from abusive men, etc.

Thank you!

[Kelly]

Cabby:

I think you need to write your "conversion" story for my blog series!

[chillzero]

Cabby:

I think you need to write your "conversion" story for my blog series!

Kelly,
I would be honoured. I think I would write it better than the remote viewing you suggested.
I'll get back to you with that.

(and thanks for noticing it)

[Kelly]

Kelly,
I would be honoured. I think I would write it better than the remote viewing you suggested.
I'll get back to you with that.

(and thanks for noticing it)

I agree about the remote viewing...this one is for you! (The conversion story!)

Shoot me an email when you get time.

Thanks!

[Kelly]

I just had a great conversation with Joe Nikell. He is too busy to contribute a complete article to the blog series, but I have permission to use segments from his articles. He's going to try to get me a quote specific to the series in relation to what we are trying to accomplish.

I will be out for a good part of the day on a missing person search, so see you later.

Kelly

[LeCynthia]

Try going to Page Setup in your printer options and narrowing the margins.

It's the frame on the left causing the letters to cut off on the right. Select the text you want to print (make sure nothing in the left pane is highlighted) then don't hit the print icon, go to file>print, and click the button for Selection. That should print better.

[Katachresis]

what I did was highlight the text, file, print, and check the Selection button rather than the All button.

It's the frame on the left causing the letters to cut off on the right. Select the text you want to print (make sure nothing in the left pane is highlighted) then don't hit the print icon, go to file>print, and click the button for Selection. That should print better.

Yeah, but the problem is a site related problem, or am I wrong?
at:
http://www.projectjason.org/comehome.html
which is my main area I wish to help in.

[Mariah]

I just had a great conversation with Joe Nikell. He is too busy to contribute a complete article to the blog series, but I have permission to use segments from his articles. He's going to try to get me a quote specific to the series in relation to what we are trying to accomplish.

I will be out for a good part of the day on a missing person search, so see you later.

Kelly

You go, girl. Joe Nickell is the finest debunker out there--sharp as a tack and even tempered--and not easy to get a hold of. You are cookin' with grease now. My admiration knows no bounds.

[Kelly]

You go, girl. Joe Nickell is the finest debunker out there--sharp as a tack and even tempered--and not easy to get a hold of. You are cookin' with grease now. My admiration knows no bounds.

Thank you!

I have my quote already...that was fast. It's brief like Susan's, but effective. It will also be helpful to know I can quote from his materials.

[Mariah]

You'll have so many experts putting in their two cents, Michael Shermer will be sorry he didn't reply to me, darn him!

Idea: maybe if YOU emailed him, telling him about Susan Blackmore's participation (which I did) and Joe Nickell's, he would now. Couldn't hurt.

And when the Amazing One himself is able...! What do you think about going on Art Bell show? Or has that already been addressed here on the forum and I've forgotten or missed it?

That would be a different take on things than when you visited the TV folks.

[Kelly]

I think I will write to Shermer.

Last night I was telling my husband that I received a quote from a world famous psychic buster. He said: "James Randi?" I told him: "No, not yet." ;)

I think someone did mention the Art Bell idea. Isn't he a believer in woo? When I hear his name, I think of UFO stories.

Thanks,
Kelly

[Hardenbergh]

Alex Tanous, a noted psychic and parapsychologist from Maine (now deceased) helped locate my next door neighbor's daughter and boyfriend many, many years ago. They were teenagers at the time and they had eloped but hadn't been in contact with their families. My neighbors consulted Alex Tanous and he told them where they were. As it turned out, he had been correct and they were both fine.

www.alextanous.org

He was also mentioned in another thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=27798

I also know someone who is gifted in this regard but didn't really like to use his abilities except in special cases. Some people find psychic abilities burdensome and they're not particularly comfortable with such gifts. He helped the police locate two young children who were lost in the woods in northern Maine.