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Neutralize
2nd May 2006, 01:21 AM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

skullerello
2nd May 2006, 01:33 AM
If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it?

Darat
2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

Welcome to the Forum - you may want to read this: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=54571

Gravy
2nd May 2006, 01:43 AM
If I predict that I won't have won The Challenge by the 5th of May, will I therefore automatically win it?
:D

Neutralize, would you be willing to share your suggested test protocol with us?

Ausmerican
2nd May 2006, 01:50 AM
Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic. Thats a result of being friends and knowing each other well. Also, there is a probability that you became friends because you think alike about many things in the first place. Try reading a strangers mind and you may have something.

Neutralize
2nd May 2006, 01:51 AM
;) I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.

Lothian
2nd May 2006, 02:20 AM
;) I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.How about a simple experiment where you pick a playing card from a pack and think about it and your friend writes the name of card down. Repeat twice.

You can practice at home.

At 10 o clock, say, you pick a card and think about it for 5 mins. At 5 past 10 you pick the next card. At 10 past 10 pick a third card then at quarter past you can compare the cards you chose with the 3 cards your friend (in a different room) has recorded. If they are all right you will have great chance of being able to pass a proper challenge.

nathan
2nd May 2006, 02:27 AM
;) I would consider a test with me being supervised, and my lady friend as well by members or representatives from JREF. This could even work with us far apart like across town. I am positive that I could successfully transfer thoughts to her, and she could say what I am thinking or whatever. i am talking to her right now.

Have you read this thread ? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28936. The protocol used there is described in post 23 of that thread.

Is that something like you envision? If not, can you be more specific than what you wrote above?

nathan
2nd May 2006, 02:32 AM
Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic.
Not _necessarily_ psychic. It all depends on the specifity of the thoughts being read. If the thought is 'hey, I'd like to go see movie X', then that's unlikely to be psychic, given that you are friends. If it's 'from this selection of random words I have selected X at random', then that's more likely to be psychic.

Mendeli
2nd May 2006, 03:08 AM
How have you tested this ability?

Any "blind" tests?

if you're talking to your friend now telepathically, is there a chance that she will remember that discussion next time you see her?

Nucular
2nd May 2006, 04:32 AM
Welcome, Neutralize.

What kinds of experiences have you had which have made you believe you're psychic?

Have you read around the area? A search of this website will probably throw up all sorts of reasons why some people think they're psychic, but may in fact be mistaken.

Nevertheless, if you have some degree of control over your possible ability, it's probably quite easily testable, when the challenge is back up and running again. Have you had any ideas for a testing procedure?

TheBoyPaj
2nd May 2006, 08:25 AM
Good luck Neutralise! Hopefully the application mechanism will be up and running again soon.

SirPhilip
2nd May 2006, 09:11 AM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

Well, this seems (deceptively?) simplistic to test: just ensure there are no devices, isolate both subjects and use whatever thought-form they wish to send to the other (if complex, impressive images are too much "overload", then simple strings of words will surely suffice) to determine a chance figure higher than 70%.

petre
2nd May 2006, 09:28 AM
Plenty of folks are already directing you to ways to improve your chances with the challenge, so I'll just correct the shortage of people wishing you...

Good Luck!

ChristineR
2nd May 2006, 09:32 AM
The ideal message is something like a number from 1-6 or a playing card. There are 52 (common) playing cards, and there's no ambiguity between them.

Single words also work well, but then you are open to the problem of synonyms and misspellings. You sent knife, she read dagger--hit or miss? Or you sent knife, she wrote nife.

Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one.

Ripley Twenty-Nine
2nd May 2006, 10:56 AM
Neutralize, if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be this: Keep it simple! You seem to have a very simple and easily testable claim; Try and keep it this way.

If you start to needlessly complicate the process, and start evading, you will encounter hostility on the forums here. If that bothers you, you should stop reading the forums immediately. However, if you keep it simple and stick to your claim, you will receive immense support from the forum. We are skeptics, but we are rooting for you. We would like nothing more than to see psychic powers proven!

Do it, and you've changed science as we know it, and you're $1,000,000 richer! Good luck!

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 11:09 AM
Pictures and ideas are also possible, but then there are a lot of possible pictures that could be considered matches. If you want to work with more abstract thoughts, I would suggest making a list of twenty or so distinct objects (pizza, automobile, shoe) that can't really be mistaken for one another, throw a die to pick one of the objects, and send that one.

And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance :)

Thing
2nd May 2006, 11:13 AM
Neutralize,
Once the application procedure is restarted and yours is considered it's by no means impossible that you may be asked to provide notarized affidavits from people you've demonstrated your mind reading to.

Out of interest, would you be willing to tell us whether you have managed to convince anyone else of your abilities yet?

shemp
2nd May 2006, 11:24 AM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.

I predict you won't win. You owe me $1 million.

ChristineR
2nd May 2006, 01:55 PM
And of course, don't share the list of pictures with the other person in advance :)

Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches.

That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not.

TheBoyPaj
2nd May 2006, 02:07 PM
That's probably the way Randi would call it, too. Give both parties access to the list of pictures, then they just have to get the order right. It prevents questions of interpretation and forces the receiver to judge the similarity for themselves.

Lamuella
2nd May 2006, 03:13 PM
The very best of luck with this, Neutralize.

The next step for you is to make sure you have a test protocol that will demonstrate your powers. In order for this demonstration to be as successful as possible, it should be something that has a calculable and high improbability, if performed randomly. From what people have told me, a probability of around 1 in 1000 is necessary for the preliminary test. Here's an idea for a test that would give 1 in 1000 probability of random success:

Take a pack of cards, divide into suits, and remove all the face cards, leaving you with four stacks of ten cards, running from ace to ten in each case. Take away the hearts, leaving you with three stacks. Someone other than you shuffles each stack of ten cards. Draw a card from the first deck at exactly 10:00 AM and concentrate on it for five minutes. Draw a card from the second deck at exactly 10:05. Draw a card from the third deck at exactly 10:10.

The odds of your receiver writing down the numbers you draw by random chance are around 1 in 1000.

Whichever way you decide to go with this, best of luck!

Admiral
2nd May 2006, 03:53 PM
I want to join the other members of the forum in wishing you good luck.

Would you mind sharing with us the claim letter that you sent in with the application?

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 04:00 PM
Actually no, my protocol has you sharing the list in advance. This is a protocol for people who can send pictures but not numbers for some reason. Both sender and receiver look at the pictures. Then sender goes into the other room, rolls a die to pick a picture and concentrates on the picture. Receiver reviews the pictures and chooses the one that matches.

That way there is no question of "sort of" matching. For example, if a picture of a building was sent and the receiver saw a building, there could be a question whether they are the same buildings. But if the receiver says "I saw a building, as in picture 7," then the only question is whether the sent picture was seven or not.

Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number?

Lamuella
2nd May 2006, 04:04 PM
Ah, I getcha. Yes, that makes sense, although I then don't see the difference between that and the numbers 1-20. Why not just 'send' the number?

I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images.

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 04:08 PM
I think the idea is that some people don't receive numbers very well and are more receptive to images.

So if I draw the number 8 with a big marker pen, then I draw a very basic snowman with no features, the difference is...?

Lamuella
2nd May 2006, 04:13 PM
to me? Not so much.

However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"?

GzuzKryzt
2nd May 2006, 04:18 PM
Hi Neutralize,

looking forward to your application getting processed. We have to remain patient until Mr. Randi gives the starting signal.

Should you have any questions regarding your protocol - I assume your application will get accepted - we will help you to the best of our abilities; as it already happens in this thread.

Finally, an application. Yeah. I hope you did your homework and read this: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

Good luck, Neutralize, and welcome to the JREF Forum.

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 04:20 PM
to me? Not so much.

However, some people remember concepts better than data. Which is easier to remember, a sequence of 25 digits in base 12, or the tune to "happy birthday"?

I get that, but I don't get how sending a psychic image of a drawing of a number can be any different to sending a psychic image of a drawing of a snowman. Isn't it just visualising the picture in front of you and sending it over? Or do numbers have some special power-blocking ability? What if it's a fairly abstract drawing of a number? Does the receiver have to be able to recognise the image in order to replicate it (for example, if you sent over an image of an animal they'd never seen, like a naked mole-rat, would they be able to recreate that image on paper or would it only work with animals they recognised?)

Lamuella
2nd May 2006, 04:26 PM
well, it depends how the communication works.

If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble.

Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me.

It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers.

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 04:34 PM
well, it depends how the communication works.

If it works by sending thoughts, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you sending a number one. If it relies on sending memories or feelings, there might be more trouble.

Have you ever had a dream where you were reading a book or a computer screen? I had one last night. I was trying to type a website URL onto the screen and I kept screwing it up. For whatever reason, the part of my brain that usually handled the comprehension of written words and stringing them together in coherent form wasn't working right. However, I got a very clear sense of where I was, what I felt about the people around me and so forth. It was just reading and writing that were beyond me.

It could be that this communication ability connects to feelings or images rather than to developed higher-brain concepts like words and numbers.

Sorry, I'm confused. What's the difference between a thought and a memory, exactly? And, physically, how are you defining 'feelings'?

Lamuella
2nd May 2006, 04:45 PM
sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly.

I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway.

all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through.

I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have.

tkingdoll
2nd May 2006, 04:51 PM
sorry, I'm explaining myself very badly.

I don't think you can transmit anything telepathically anyway.

all I was trying to say was that the part of the brain that deals with numbers and other components of language and the part of the brain that deals with images are different. It could be that the connection this person has with their receiver allows them to get an idea of what he is looking at or thinking about without anything as clear cut as the number seven coming through.

I apologize for this not being very clear. As I'm not the challenge applicant, I have no idea what kind of connection he has or claims to have.

That's OK, I'm understanding badly, so we're even :D

I think the main problem is that what you are suggesting sounds like a plausible explanation (especially if one was claiming to have such powers), but when you examine it closely, for example, what if you are visualising a picture of a number rather than the number itself, the hypothesis falls apart somewhat.

But my experience is that these claims don't stand up to that sort of scrutiny anyway, in that as there is no physical explanation for them, it's little use trying to rationalise any particular exception in mundane terms. Psychics are likely to say they don't know why it's a particular way, it just is.

hellaeon
2nd May 2006, 05:30 PM
Good luck with your test mate.

A suggestion for practice is getting a neutral third party to ask you to write a number down at a specific time, the friend should be away from the location or at least inaccessible to you. They try to 'receive' what your sending. You could try doing it every minute for ten minutes (start with numbers 1-10). Be sure the tester is aware of the situation. They are not there to help but make life hard for you. Its a test.

Only my thoughts though.

ChristineR
2nd May 2006, 05:40 PM
The only obvious reason I could think of for preferring pictures of pictures of numbers would be that someone might confuse 6 and 9. After all, we don't know that telepathy might not invert pictures.

You could go on in this way. What's actually transmitted might be a blurry visual image, or it might be a histogram of the different colors in the image, or sounds or smells. The important point is to choose something that the claiment feels he can easily work with and something unambiguous.

A lot of the early "positive" telepathy experiments were remote viewing and pictures. Someone would draw a picture and the "telepath" would sketch a cylinder or a blob and people would call it a hit. I think some people still get hits this way when experimenting with their friends.

Neutralize says he/she has been reading friend's thoughts, which is something that is difficult to objectively judge. So I was looking for a protocol which could use a list of things that friends often think about, but with no ambiguous interpretations. A set of twenty pictures of everyday objects could work. The claiment simply has to choose twenty objects that can be distinguished by telepathy. If there is a possible problem with homonyms, or similar tastes, or colors, the claiment just chooses objects that don't have that problem.

Gr8wight
2nd May 2006, 07:01 PM
Have you read this thread ? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28936. The protocol used there is described in post 23 of that thread.

Is that something like you envision? If not, can you be more specific than what you wrote above?

Also informative, and possibly related to your claim might be this thread:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30676

thaiboxerken
2nd May 2006, 07:04 PM
It amazes me that people actually believe that they have superpowers.

SirPhilip
2nd May 2006, 07:56 PM
It amazes me that people actually believe that they have superpowers. "Super" is a relative term - Gellar considers spoon bending a profound and inspiring human achievement (the only two other known public figures supportive of this notion being Michael Jackson and the Wachowski Brothers), while David Copperfield shakes his head and sighs. Sylvia Browne thinks wrapping herself up in a multi-colored tarp and playing dice with people's feelings is right conduct and a charming way to approach the absolute. Benny Hinn thinks crudely executed stage hypnosis is a way to get rich quick (and goddamint, he's right). Ok, back to reality. My co-worker can shoot 2 foot balls of fire out of his rear end. Ok, so it isn't breaking any conserved constants, but it can approach a practical comic book superpower at times. One time he seriously let the cat out of the bag and unleased one that we all agreed would make at least Batman pivot to one side.

thaiboxerken
2nd May 2006, 08:31 PM
No, it's not. Superpowers = supernatural powers.

Flange Desire
2nd May 2006, 11:04 PM
Welcome Neutralize.
Other posters have given you plenty of good advice to get you started.
Look forward to seeing your test protocol developed.

SirPhilip
2nd May 2006, 11:26 PM
No, it's not. Superpowers = supernatural powers.Only in method, not result (exception: time travel). A better word would be "super improbable" or "absurdly unlikely" rather than supernatural (a butterfly causing a hurricane). I think the idea of natural and supernatural is wrongheaded - the seperation functions mostly as a buzzword to identify ludicrous things from sensible things. Taking the butterfly analogy as an example, subtle supernatural events occur along with sensible events all the time.

Lothian
3rd May 2006, 01:29 AM
The reason people prefer images is that they can argue partial hits much better. If you have a 4 and they write 2 an arguments of “I was close I got the square root of 4” doesn’t impress anyone. If they got the wrong picture however they will look for similarities and argue that they misinterpreted the messages they received. “ I knew it was a building I just picked the wrong one.”

This argument I refer to is an internal argument as they convince themselves that something supernatural is going on. There are simply more hits (similarities) between two pictures than two numbers. As people tend to remember hits more than misses they will remember doing better with pictures than numbers, cards or whatever.

GzuzKryzt
3rd May 2006, 03:08 AM
The reason people prefer images is that they can argue partial hits much better. If you have a 4 and they write 2 an arguments of “I was close I got the square root of 4” doesn’t impress anyone. If they got the wrong picture however they will look for similarities and argue that they misinterpreted the messages they received. “ I knew it was a building I just picked the wrong one.”

This argument I refer to is an internal argument as they convince themselves that something supernatural is going on. There are simply more hits (similarities) between two pictures than two numbers. As people tend to remember hits more than misses they will remember doing better with pictures than numbers, cards or whatever.

Good points, Lothian.

Neutralize, if I may suggest a training method: Pick up a simple deck of poker cards. Clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds. Deuces to Aces. In brief:
Pick ten cards. Take notes which cards you sent at which order. Send them via telepathy to your friend across town. Compare results.
If you feel like it, act as receiver. Have you friend do the sending. Compare results.



A while ago, I spent time in neo-hippie, esoteric, new-age circles. People would approach me at parties and get-togethers about their "abilities" to read minds.
Usually, we picked a mutual acquaintance to go in another room and "send" a number of tarot cards.

I spare you with the mathematic results. [Cough-zero-cough] Suffice it to say, I have yet to hear anything as creative as the excuses and explanations I heard from those probably well-meaning "telepaths" after they had a dose of the reality that surrounds us all.

Lothian
3rd May 2006, 03:16 AM
I spare you with the mathematic results. [Cough-zero-cough] Suffice it to say, I have yet to hear anything as creative as the excuses and explanations I heard from those probably well-meaning "telepaths" after they had a dose of the reality that surrounds us all.I presume your sceptical anti-psi powers nullified the effect.

GzuzKryzt
3rd May 2006, 03:36 AM
I presume your sceptical anti-psi powers nullified the effect.

Yeah, I got several responses along this lines of: "You're too negative!"

Everyone: I want this to work, I just don't want to have to believe in it to work.
Convince me, wow me, show me a new aspect of reality.

Ryan O'Dine
3rd May 2006, 07:40 AM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.
I, too, want to welcome you and wish you luck.

It may be interesting to hear your friend’s perspective. Any chance you could convince her to join the forum and chat with us?

Almo
3rd May 2006, 08:28 AM
Hey!

Just to repeat the best bit of advice there has been:

Keep it simple. The challenge tests that have gone well are always with simple test protocols. They're easier to agree on, and easier to carry out without any post-test bickering about what went wrong.

And I didn't see anyone mention it, though it's in the FAQ:

Us Forum Dudez don't represent JREF in any way. :)

NobbyNobbs
3rd May 2006, 08:50 AM
To my way of thinking, whether it's a number or an image isn't important. What is important is that all parties agree ahead of time what a "success" is.

If the transmitter sends "7" and the receiver receives "5" and it has been agreed upon that the number +/- 5 is acceptable, then this is a success.

If the transmitter sends "Empire State Building" and the receiver receives "Sears Tower" and it has been agreed upon that any large building is acceptable, then this is a success too.

If that has not been agreed upon, then it is not a fulfillment of the claim.

ChristineR
3rd May 2006, 09:18 AM
To my way of thinking, whether it's a number or an image isn't important. What is important is that all parties agree ahead of time what a "success" is.

If the transmitter sends "7" and the receiver receives "5" and it has been agreed upon that the number +/- 5 is acceptable, then this is a success.

If the transmitter sends "Empire State Building" and the receiver receives "Sears Tower" and it has been agreed upon that any large building is acceptable, then this is a success too.

If that has not been agreed upon, then it is not a fulfillment of the claim.

This is a perfect use for my pictures. We have two pictures, one of "numerals" and one of "sky scraper." We can label them "heads" and "tails" and pick which one to send by coin flips.

Ririon
3rd May 2006, 10:55 AM
This is a perfect use for my pictures. We have two pictures, one of "numerals" and one of "sky scraper." We can label them "heads" and "tails" and pick which one to send by coin flips.
Two words: Zener cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zener_card).

Neutralize
3rd May 2006, 11:47 AM
:o Reading your friends thoughts? Thats not psychic. Thats a result of being friends and knowing each other well. Also, there is a probability that you became friends because you think alike about many things in the first place. Try reading a strangers mind and you may have something.

No. really we don't even see each other regularly. we only talked like three times at school. We both have heterochromia(one blue eye and one green eye). We sometimes run sround playing hide and seek in the middle of the night.

Neutralize
3rd May 2006, 11:53 AM
uh, as for cards and stuff. the easiest way top do that is ryhme. We could pretty much talk to each other and write down each others thoughts. I can even feel her uterus etc. inside my stomache. It really feels weird to be around her.

Neutralize
3rd May 2006, 11:56 AM
Also when she is at home I can smell her perfume, taste what she is eating etc.

ChristineR
3rd May 2006, 12:21 PM
Hmm, I'm not following what you mean about rhyme. A simple way to test would be for her to set up a tray of foods, say six of them, with very different tastes. Then have her roll a die to pick a food and eat some. You agree in advance that she will eat at (say) 6:00, 6:15, 6:30, etc. and check your clocks together.

Art Vandelay
3rd May 2006, 12:35 PM
I think the main problem is that what you are suggesting sounds like a plausible explanation (especially if one was claiming to have such powers), but when you examine it closely, for example, what if you are visualising a picture of a number rather than the number itself, the hypothesis falls apart somewhat.Three points:
1. Numbers are handled in a different part of the brain, and are treated as different concepts. A six and and a nine, for instance, are the same image, but they are not the same number. When numbers are handled in the same way as images, that's called "dyslexia".
2. We are discussing testing the possibility of telepathy. Isn't it rather odd to be accepting, for the sake of argument, that telepathy exists, yet rejecting the possibility that numbers are treated differently from images?
3. The whole point of the Challenge is to give the subject all benefits of the doubt that are compatible with the scientific method. That way, if he fails, he has no excuses. In the end, it is irrelevant whether there is a reasonable explanation for the claims. If the subject claims that his ability works only on dates which are prime, then he is tested only on dates that are prime. The aim is to test the claim, not to see if the claim makes sense.

GzuzKryzt
3rd May 2006, 01:24 PM
Also when she is at home I can smell her perfume, taste what she is eating etc.

Any idea about a test protocol for the latter claim, Neutralize?

tkingdoll
3rd May 2006, 02:45 PM
Three points:
1. Numbers are handled in a different part of the brain, and are treated as different concepts. A six and and a nine, for instance, are the same image, but they are not the same number. When numbers are handled in the same way as images, that's called "dyslexia".

2. We are discussing testing the possibility of telepathy. Isn't it rather odd to be accepting, for the sake of argument, that telepathy exists, yet rejecting the possibility that numbers are treated differently from images?


That's not what I'm saying. I accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and the number seven, but I do not accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and a picture of the number seven. Numbers are different from pictures. Pictures of numbers are not different from pictures of anything else. It's just lines.

What I'm interested in is why a psychic would struggle with one but not the other, unless it's just an excuse to interpret the results to get more hits, as has been suggested.

Regarding your point 3, your aim might be to test the claim, mine is to make sense of the claim. Hence my posts.

Ririon
3rd May 2006, 03:14 PM
What I'm interested in is why a psychic would struggle with one but not the other, unless it's just an excuse to interpret the results to get more hits, as has been suggested.

Numbers = math = science = powerful evil woo-blocker... :p

case sensitive
3rd May 2006, 04:10 PM
uh, as for cards and stuff. the easiest way top do that is ryhme. We could pretty much talk to each other and write down each others thoughts. I can even feel her uterus etc. inside my stomache. It really feels weird to be around her.

Also when she is at home I can smell her perfume, taste what she is eating etc.

This is a little... weird to say the least. Are you sure you don't just have a crush on her? It seem a tiny bit obsessive. Does she know that you "feel" her uterus?

I have heard about people that knows what their friend is thinking many times and it NEVER holds up in a test. Test the card trick that has been suggested and see for yourself. It will save you a lots of time and you can spend that time asking your friend out on a date! :)

SirPhilip
3rd May 2006, 05:04 PM
uh, as for cards and stuff. the easiest way top do that is ryhme. We could pretty much talk to each other and write down each others thoughts. I can even feel her uterus etc. inside my stomache. It really feels weird to be around her.After the sun sets on this brave new world, and leaves you $1,000,000 richer, you should ask her to go raving. Look deeply into her eyes and tell her it couldn't have happened without her uterus (lying).

Flange Desire
3rd May 2006, 05:29 PM
I see your recent posts Neutralize, but I do not see any attempt by you to develop a test protocol.
Why is that?

case sensitive
3rd May 2006, 05:55 PM
Ahh... now I get it! I remember the feeling of that special someone's uterus. You saw her at school and got all exited and almost sick to your stomach. But I never knew that I was feeling her uterus.

"Did you touch my daughter?"
"No, I swear I only felt her uterus!"

If that had happened we all know what would have followed:

"In A.D. 2101
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Operator: We get signal.
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
Captain: It's You !!
Cats: How are you gentlemen !!
Cats: All your base are belong to us.
Cats: You are on the way to destruction.
Captain: What you say !!
Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time.
Cats: HA HA HA HA ....
Captain: Take off every 'zig' !!
Captain: You know what you doing.
Captain: Move 'zig'.
Captain: For great justice."

And all because of her uterus...

nathan
4th May 2006, 01:13 AM
I accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and the number seven, but I do not accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and a picture of the number seven. Numbers are different from pictures. Pictures of numbers are not different from pictures of anything else. It's just lines.

Look up synaesthesia, and I think you'll see a difference. You'll see that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and a picture of a number. Although both will be processed by the visual cortex, the number will be recognized as a number and processed by the numerical bit of the brain too -- you can't turn that off.

Mendeli
4th May 2006, 02:33 AM
uh, as for cards and stuff. the easiest way top do that is ryhme. We could pretty much talk to each other and write down each others thoughts.

What do you mean by "the easiest way top do that is ryhme"
I'm sorry, as English isnt my primary language, I have trouble understanding your sentence.

As for my other questions, would you like to answer them?

The questions are in the tenth post of this thread.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1612055&postcount=10


Having done that, I would find it interesting if you could propose what you would think would constitute a successful demonstration of your claim.

tkingdoll
4th May 2006, 07:54 AM
Look up synaesthesia, and I think you'll see a difference. You'll see that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and a picture of a number. Although both will be processed by the visual cortex, the number will be recognized as a number and processed by the numerical bit of the brain too -- you can't turn that off.

OK, I read the article, and I don't think it addresses my point. Firstly, the article seems to say that with with Synaesthesia (which apparently occurs in 10% of people) sometimes see the colour red as the number 7, or associate a b minor with the smells of strawberries, etc.

I'm talking about the difference between a drawing of a number and a drawing of anything else. In my earlier post I used the number 8 and a very basic snowman as an example - those two images are almost identical, so I don't see how Synaesthesia accounts for the telepathic transmission of one, and not the other. If you see the number eight as red, then you will also see the eight in the snowman and see that as red too, so I'm not sure what difference it makes.

Synaesthesia - if it is a real neurological condition and not simply a psychological effect, for example the person 'tasting' hamburgers with their hands is most definitely imagining it, otherwise it'd be paranormal - seems to apply only to numbers, letters etc that the sufferer recognises. There is even an example in that Wiki article of someone who is learning Chinese, and is starting to see the characters as colours (where, presumably, they didn't before the characters became recognisable to them). So if this neurological difference you refer to can explain why a telepath could transmit a drawing of a cat but not a drawing of a four (because they recognise the four as a number and process it differently), a number in, say, Japanese, shouldn't present a problem.

From the links I've looked at via that Wiki article, I'm not convinced that Synaesthesia is a significant phenomenon. Take this case study from the pages of the UK Synaesthesia Association:

Carol uses here synaesthetic experiences as inspiration for her artwork. This painting shows the colour images that were evoked during an accupuncture session. Her descriptions imply a richness of colours, movement and texture: "Lying there, I watched the black background become pierced by a bright red colour that began to form in the middle of the rich velvet blackness. The red began as a small dot of colour and grew quite large rather quickly, chasing much of the blackness away. I saw green shapes appear in the midst of the red color and move around the red and black fields."


If you're being poked with needles (and perhaps having endorphins released to the brain), it's hardly surprising that you see pretty swirly colours. Especially if you're an artist and given to creative flights of fancy.

I do appreciate that you are saying that numbers are processed by the brain differently to other images, but I don't accept Synaesthesia as evidence of that. Also, that reasoning only applies if the telepath/psychic/whoever is familar with the characters, otherwise the brain would not know to process them differently, and it doesn't account for images that are similar to numbers or have numbers in them.

Forty-Two
4th May 2006, 10:03 AM
If you see the number eight as red, then you will also see the eight in the snowman and see that as red too, so I'm not sure what difference it makes.
Okay, I think that synethesia is far, far away from the topic at hand, but since I have it (and am all but confirmed as a non-woo), I thought I'd add my two cents. If you were to show me the numeral for the number eight, my brain would associate it with a specific shade of yellow. If you were to show me a snowman, it probably wouldn't trigger the yellow unless it was quite obviously meant to be an eight -- that is, I don't identify just any two circles placed one on top of another as the number eight.

Now, if you were to show me the number eight in Roman numerals, I wouldn't see yellow, I'd see red and white because my brain interprets V and I as different information from an 8.

As to whether synesthesia is a "significant phenomenon," I'd say it really doesn't do that much. It exists; I have it and have been tested for it, but it's not like it gives me any greater insight into the human condition or anything. It may give me a slight edge in remembering numbers and dates, but I haven't found any use for it other than a mnemonic aid. If you have any questions about my own personal experiences with synesthesia, feel free to PM me or start a new topic.

Again, though, I don't think it has anything to do with the topic we were discussing, which is how to test whether Neutralize can send information telepathically.

Art Vandelay
4th May 2006, 10:41 AM
That's not what I'm saying. I accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and the number seven, but I do not accept that there is a difference between a picture of a cow and a picture of the number seven.But what I'm saying is that it is different, because a picture of the number seven gets sent to your language center, rather than your visual processing center. When you're shown a picture of a the number seven, you don't see a picture of the number seven. You just see the number seven.

If you see the number eight as red, then you will also see the eight in the snowman and see that as red too, so I'm not sure what difference it makes.Just because there is something shaped like the number eight doesn't mean that it will be perceived as the number eight.

So if this neurological difference you refer to can explain why a telepath could transmit a drawing of a cat but not a drawing of a four (because they recognise the four as a number and process it differently), a number in, say, Japanese, shouldn't present a problem. Possibly. But it may still trigger the language processing of the brain; when someone speaks Japanese, I don't know what they're saying, but I do recognize it as speech.

What do you mean by "the easiest way top do that is ryhme"
I'm sorry, as English isnt my primary language, I have trouble understanding your sentence.Do you understand that he meant to say "the easiest way to do that is rhyme"?

SirPhilip
4th May 2006, 11:11 AM
If you're being poked with needles (and perhaps having endorphins released to the brain), it's hardly surprising that you see pretty swirly colours. Especially if you're an artist and given to creative flights of fancy.
I'm fairly certain even a large release of endorphins (which can be naturally induced by crying or sustained exercise) wouldn't produce any visual artifacts.

webfusion
4th May 2006, 11:25 AM
Neutralize, do you have a photograph of you standing together with this female acquaintance? Post it here, that would be a good start...

Not that we doubt your veracity or anything, but so far, we have seen extremely little in the way of replies from you here that focus on the matter at hand. A picture of the two of you would go a long way to illustrating that she is even aware of your existence.

Scottie99
4th May 2006, 11:40 AM
:o

No. really we don't even see each other regularly. we only talked like three times at school. We both have heterochromia(one blue eye and one green eye). We sometimes run sround playing hide and seek in the middle of the night.


New to that word. After all my years of having one blue and one brown eye. Glad to have a name for that finally.

Neutralize
4th May 2006, 06:43 PM
Well in the first few responses to my original post, I have decided to keep it simple. I thought of a test protocol that I think would work.

Have the both of us monitered by cameras with syncronized timeclocks as we go about our daily routine, but talk outloud what we are communcating. For example JREF representative randomly asks her to pick an object, say a word, read something etc. and compare the recorded evidence at the end of the day.

Scott Haley
4th May 2006, 07:10 PM
Well in the first few responses to my original post, I have decided to keep it simple. I thought of a test protocol that I think would work.

Have the both of us monitered by cameras with syncronized timeclocks as we go about our daily routine, but talk outloud what we are communcating. For example JREF representative randomly asks her to pick an object, say a word, read something etc. and compare the recorded evidence at the end of the day.

If the two of you go around talking and doing things all day long, at the end of the day there will be some correspondence between the hundreds of things that you both say and do during the course of a day.

You say that you can taste what she's eating.

How about this:

1) The two of you are put into separate rooms, where you can't see, hear, smell, etc. one another.

2) She is given a random food by a neutral tester. Neither of you are given a clue about what food she'll get.

3) She eats the food. You taste what she's eating from your room, and report. If you can consistently know what she's eating, I think you'll get the million.

--Scott

Flange Desire
4th May 2006, 08:17 PM
Well in the first few responses to my original post, I have decided to keep it simple. I thought of a test protocol that I think would work.

Have the both of us monitered by cameras with syncronized timeclocks as we go about our daily routine, but talk outloud what we are communcating. For example JREF representative randomly asks her to pick an object, say a word, read something etc. and compare the recorded evidence at the end of the day.

Not simple enough.
Forget the 'daily routine' business - do it in separate isolation rooms.

Neutralize
4th May 2006, 11:18 PM
How have you tested this ability?

Any "blind" tests?

if you're talking to your friend now telepathically, is there a chance that she will remember that discussion next time you see her?

OK to answer a few questions, yes we have tested this ability. As I said we play hide and seek in the middle of the night. She will let me know where to find her and I'll go look. Whenever I look into her eyes I like hyperventalate and everything looks like Stark Trek when they go into warp speed. She often visits my back yard at night and knocks on my walls etc. to tease me.

As for remembering the conversation, she knows about the challenge, and is scared to attempt it in fear of ridicule or that we will be sucessful. I'm going to try to talk her into it when I see her on Tuesday(hopefully).

Neutralize
4th May 2006, 11:25 PM
Taste, smell, touch, words, pictures, numbers, bring it on! All in the name of science.

Orphia Nay
5th May 2006, 01:27 AM
Hi Neutralise. Welcome, and good luck with your application.

OK to answer a few questions, yes we have tested this ability. As I said we play hide and seek in the middle of the night. She will let me know where to find her and I'll go look.

That is the least paranormal thing I have heard from an applicant. Are you sure that is what you meant to say?

Whenever I look into her eyes I like hyperventalate and everything looks like Stark Trek when they go into warp speed.

How is this related to telepathy? It does sound like a bit like love to me, though. ;)

She often visits my back yard at night and knocks on my walls etc. to tease me.

Again, this is not paranormal at all.

Please give us more examples of specific occasions where you have read your friend's thoughts. It should help you understand your strengths and weaknesses, and help create a test protocol.

Best wishes.

Ririon
5th May 2006, 03:12 AM
...How is this related to telepathy? It does sound like a bit like love to me, though. ;)...

You,ve got it baaaad, Neutralize... :D Anyway: If you have told her about your "paranormal symptoms", she knows about it, too. Telepathy or not. And evidently she's not running away. I think you might have something here. It's not a million dollars, but for once, I don't feel bad about informing a deluded applicant about that. :)

GzuzKryzt
5th May 2006, 05:32 AM
Taste, smell, touch, words, pictures, numbers, bring it on! All in the name of science.


Neutralize, you have to bring it on. But you do not have to deliver the whole smorgasbord you brought up.

Pick one ability - preferably words or numbers.

Tell us, how you intend to demonstrate your abilities.

Tell us what you think constitutes a successful "telepathic transfer". Please also define who "sends" and who "receives".

Quite understandably, fear of ridicule plagues most applicants. You can counter your fears by running several tests yourself.

A quick one: Sit in two different rooms. Have the "sender" write down the numbers from 0 to 9 in the order they are "sent". Have the "receiver" write down the numbers in the order they are "received".
Run several trials. Compare results. If you consistently get 6 out of 10 right, you seem to travel a very productive path.




Obviously, I can't speak for the whole forum gang. I feel quite sure though, that no people in their right mind will ridicule an applicant after a failed test.

Check out this thread after the test took place. It starts with post #49. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=38792

petre
5th May 2006, 07:23 AM
Since Kramer is no longer the (challenge administrator?), it's slightly more difficult to guess what the exact response to your application might be.

Still, I think the first thing you need to understand is that the protocol will NOT be just waiting for random unusual things that make you go, "Hrmn, that's interesting". I suggest you try to think of a protocol that:

1. Has a distinct number of trials (10 or 20 is common, it keeps it short and makes the math easy).
2. SPECIFIC criteria for pass/fail on each trial.

If you can succeed with such a protocol (in some statistically interesting way), passing the challenge should be a breeze. If you're not able to find anything that works with those two requirements, then I believe you'll find it very difficult, if not impossible, to work out a protocol with JREF.

It is common for applicants to lose focus in the excitement of exploring the paranormal and never "tame" it (as I say). So, as others have suggested, your best chance of success is to focus on one aspect that is most likely to "behave" for you as you attempt to develop a protocol.

Ravenwood
5th May 2006, 09:36 AM
having worked with two self claimed "telepaths", the test protocol was to put them in different rooms where they could not see or hear each other, and then to give the "sender" random words from the dictionary, which the "reciever" would write down. each run was 20 words. Needless to say, nothing even approaching the odds of random chance was noted let alone signs of telepathy...

Jess
5th May 2006, 10:57 AM
I can even feel her uterus etc. inside my stomache. It really feels weird to be around her.

Yes, this is weird. I have a uterus and I don't "feel" it when I walk around. I'm not sure why you would be feeling a uterus, nor why it would be manifesting itself in your stomach. After all, a woman's uterus isn't in her stomach.

I'm going to chime in and say that you might have a bit of a crush on this woman, hence all the weird feelings. I suspect you're simply very compatible...but not psychic or telepathic. That is why you constantly think of her perfume, feel like you share thoughts, etc.

You seem like a nice person, and I would hate for you to experience any embarrassment as a result of taking the JREF test. I strongly advocate that if you are serious about this, that you conduct trials on your own to see if you get any statistically significant data. The scientific value the JREF will garner from this test is not worth jeopardizing your own well-being. Set up a trial with your friend, and plan to do something fun afterwards. :)

If you think you are psychic independent of this woman, you might try the online Zener card test: http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/~paul/zener.html
You would have to do this a few times, though, since you could guess cards right by chance.

Anyway, a few posters have described some scenarios for you to try with your friend. Pick one, and just give it a shot one night. If you let us know the results, I'm sure someone could help you from there.

Forty-Two
5th May 2006, 02:22 PM
Yes, this is weird. I have a uterus and I don't "feel" it when I walk around. I'm not sure why you would be feeling a uterus, nor why it would be manifesting itself in your stomach. After all, a woman's uterus isn't in her stomach.
I was just about to post the exact same thing myself; I only actually "feel" my uterus a few days a month (and then I wish I couldn't).

Best of luck, Neutralize. I hope you try some of these tests and keep us posted on the results. Your relationship sounds very interesting.

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 10:11 PM
Ok. we met at school. After aquiring telepathy, she plans to turn me into a "gangster rapper" at any and all costs. She is very manipulative, and avoids in hopes that I will become furious and rap for money. I never see this girl regularly. And as for hise and seek having nothing to do with telepathy picture this(for all you number crunchers): I can't sleep at night, so my delusional hallucinations tell me personal information about someone I have a crush on like her whereabouts in the middle of the night. So I wonder out to this rendezvous point and she's there. Works every time. Whenever we get the urge to see each other we run around playtng games. Like for example she will say, tonight I'm going to go play in such-andsuch a neighborhood in the middle of the night. Come and find me. I'll go there and she'll be making funny noises, creeping around in the bushes, hiding, running ducking jumping, etc. you have to understand now that to keep a certain amount of spark in our relationship for the time being we consider ourself "partners" or "telepathy frineds".

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 10:16 PM
As I can tell you I wouldn't be on this forum if I hadn't done EXTENSIVE testing. After all it's been over a year.:cool:

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 10:18 PM
:rolleyes: This girl has quite an imagination, and she could think of a million things to use her uterus for.

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 10:23 PM
OK, thanks for your support everyone. Tonight we have decided to conduct some "tests" I'll tell you all in advance I don't have this girls phone number, we don't see each other or talk to each other often. So I'm going on a walk and will be sure to exchange some thoughts.

Orphia Nay
5th May 2006, 10:43 PM
I can't sleep at night, so my delusional hallucinations tell me personal information about someone I have a crush on like her whereabouts in the middle of the night. So I wonder out to this rendezvous point and she's there. Works every time.

Wow, that sounds pretty interesting! How many times has that happened?

Orphia Nay
5th May 2006, 10:45 PM
Whenever we get the urge to see each other we run around playtng games. Like for example she will say, tonight I'm going to go play in such-andsuch a neighborhood in the middle of the night. Come and find me. I'll go there and she'll be making funny noises, creeping around in the bushes, hiding, running ducking jumping, etc.

[emphasis mine]

Does she actually say this to you aloud in person, or do you mean you hear her telepathically?

SezMe
5th May 2006, 10:56 PM
Ok. we met at school. After aquiring telepathy, she plans to turn me into a "gangster rapper" at any and all costs. She is very manipulative, and avoids in hopes that I will become furious and rap for money. I never see this girl regularly. And as for hise and seek having nothing to do with telepathy picture this(for all you number crunchers): I can't sleep at night, so my delusional hallucinations tell me personal information about someone I have a crush on like her whereabouts in the middle of the night. So I wonder out to this rendezvous point and she's there. Works every time. Whenever we get the urge to see each other we run around playtng games. Like for example she will say, tonight I'm going to go play in such-andsuch a neighborhood in the middle of the night. Come and find me. I'll go there and she'll be making funny noises, creeping around in the bushes, hiding, running ducking jumping, etc. you have to understand now that to keep a certain amount of spark in our relationship for the time being we consider ourself "partners" or "telepathy frineds".
This reminds me of a benign version of revalations in the bible - namely, just incoherent rambling. For me, Neutralize has lost any capability he might have had to make a contribution to the fora. Any interest I might retain is only for entertainment value.

Orphia Nay
5th May 2006, 11:10 PM
Neutralize, this girl sounds like trouble, from what you've said. You seem to be in love with her, you say she is manipulating you, and yet you don't even have her phone number. I hope you don't get hurt.

I also hope you're being sarcastic about having 'delusional hallucinations'.

As Jess rightly said, "the scientific value the JREF will garner from this test is not worth jeopardizing your own well-being".

We've seen other applicants with amazing claims (but personal problems) who seem to go into meltdown (to put it unscientifically) in just the preliminary stages, never making it to an actual agreed test protocol. I would hate to see that happen again, or to you. I hope you are happy and healthy, and not having major problems in your daily life.

Again, best wishes.

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 11:13 PM
[emphasis mine]

Does she actually say this to you aloud in person, or do you mean you hear her telepathically?

I mean with with telepathy.

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 11:16 PM
Neutralize, this girl sounds like trouble, from what you've said. You seem to be in love with her, you say she is manipulating you, and yet you don't even have her phone number. I hope you don't get hurt.

I also hope you're being sarcastic about having 'delusional hallucinations'.

As Jess rightly said, "the scientific value the JREF will garner from this test is not worth jeopardizing your own well-being".

We've seen other applicants with amazing claims (but personal problems) who seem to go into meltdown (to put it unscientifically) in just the preliminary stages, never making it to an actual agreed test protocol. I would hate to see that happen again, or to you. I hope you are happy and healthy, and not having major problems in your daily life.

Again, best wishes.

Oh this doesn't bother us that much. and i was just being sarcastic

Neutralize
5th May 2006, 11:25 PM
This reminds me of a benign version of revalations in the bible - namely, just incoherent rambling. For me, Neutralize has lost any capability he might have had to make a contribution to the fora. Any interest I might retain is only for entertainment value.

This offends me. I am trying to explain my situation the best I can. Please sit back and enjoy the entertainment, but please don't try to say this discussion isn't contributing to the forum.

aargh57
6th May 2006, 12:03 AM
Neutralize,

Have you tried any of the specific examples that people have suggested here. Namely, the ones involving a deck of cards, dice, or food? It would seem that these would be something that you could do very quickly and would satisfy yourself and others. Before you reject doing them out of hand by just saying something like, "Oh, I know we can do that. We already read specific thoughts, picking a card would be easy." Why not just try it? Have your friend go in the next room, and then pick a card at random and have her write down what you picked (or one of the many other suggestions). This would be a very simple test, having people follow both of you around all day with cameras would not be simple. From reading your posts it seems like a test such as this would be within the realm of your claim.

GzuzKryzt
6th May 2006, 12:22 AM
As I can tell you I wouldn't be on this forum if I hadn't done EXTENSIVE testing. After all it's been over a year.:cool:

"Extensive testing" sounds promising.

Can you get more specific, please? (I.e.: What kind of test, how often, what number of trials, success rates, control methods, etc.)

SezMe
6th May 2006, 12:42 AM
This offends me. I am trying to explain my situation the best I can. Please sit back and enjoy the entertainment, but please don't try to say this discussion isn't contributing to the forum.
"This discussion isn't contributing to the forum."

Damn, I tried. Sorry for the offense.

Neutralize
6th May 2006, 12:03 PM
i can tell you right now, last night before bed she had a tuna sandwich. Right now she is eating an english muffin, with ham, cheese, and eggs for breakfast.

Last night she did visit, although she did stay in my neighbours yard, the clever little girl brought a laser pointer with her, and one of her lady friends. She did such things as ask me to flicker the light swithes open the windows etc.

:boggled:

I jumped out of my bathroom window and ran toward the fence and heard her yell something. Then they hid behind a swingset.

Neutralize
6th May 2006, 12:17 PM
:confused: This reminds me of a benign version of revalations in the bible - namely, just incoherent rambling. For me, Neutralize has lost any capability he might have had to make a contribution to the fora. Any interest I might retain is only for entertainment value.

Does anybody have more information about this? It really intrigues me.

TheBoyPaj
6th May 2006, 12:20 PM
Neutralise. These things you're posting. They're irrelevant. They prove nothing and mean nothing. People here are posting useful advice such as "use a deck of cards", "sit in separate rooms", and your response is to say stuff like "I think she ate tuna today... I like tuna. I wonder if she likes salmon...."

Have you done any controlled tests? If not, you had better start to think about what sort of controlled test would be acceptable to you, because otherwise your application will not progress beyond your opening email.

Neutralize
6th May 2006, 12:23 PM
Oh, yeah. I just remembered, last night my brother and I dicided to go see Mission Impossible 3. So naturally I got all dressed up and invited her to "Join" us. Upon arriving there, I see her girl friends car in the parking lot. I wasn't certain she was there because sometimes she's not honest. Anyways halfway through the movie, I walk up the aisle and look at her. Weird and yeasterday she drove past me right as I got of work.

It seem like everyone in town talks gossip or rumors and a lot of people knhow our story.

Neutralize
6th May 2006, 12:25 PM
Well designing a test protocol would be simple. Put us in seprate rooms and start the testing.

GzuzKryzt
6th May 2006, 01:18 PM
Well designing a test protocol would be simple. Put us in seprate rooms and start the testing.

Test what exactly? Who "sends", who "receives"? Please define more clearly what you intend to prove.

Have you tried this - putting "in seprate [sic] rooms" - before? What results did you obtain?

Thing
6th May 2006, 03:52 PM
Neutralize,

I ask in all seriousness and without hostility: have you had your mental health assessed recently? There are several interpretations available for the experiences you claim to have had, and one of these is that some sort of mental imbalance causes you to believe that you're in constant communication with this sort. I'm sorry if that sounds hurtful, I'm not saying it's definitely the case, just that it could be. While that possibility remains open I'm reluctant to encourage what might be a dangerous delusion by offering advice as to how to verify it. And I'd suggest others here take that possibility seriously.

rjh01
6th May 2006, 04:43 PM
Good idea Thing. Then when Neutralize is asked to provide 3 affidavits she will already have one person who can give a very good one.

Ravenwood
6th May 2006, 05:16 PM
based on the evasive replies to direct questions & suggestions for protocols, coupled with some random "odd" replies, I am beginning to find this applicant suspect...wether it be a troll or mental health related remains to be seen. Out of curiousity Neutralize, you did have your application Notarized before you sent it in, correct?

Neutralize
6th May 2006, 05:18 PM
Neutralize,

I ask in all seriousness and without hostility: have you had your mental health assessed recently? There are several interpretations available for the experiences you claim to have had, and one of these is that some sort of mental imbalance causes you to believe that you're in constant communication with this sort. I'm sorry if that sounds hurtful, I'm not saying it's definitely the case, just that it could be. While that possibility remains open I'm reluctant to encourage what might be a dangerous delusion by offering advice as to how to verify it. And I'd suggest others here take that possibility seriously.

Upon telling the Bishop of my church this( who is also a phsyciatrist) he asked my permission to have me sent to the phyciatric ward for an assesment. This was last year. I am very healthy and am on no medications. I suppose I could use him to notarize the application.

Ravenwood
6th May 2006, 05:29 PM
Again, evasion noted. A valid application is supposed to be notarized (as in by a notary public), in fact to obtain said application, you would have had to have read Randi's notice that they are currently not accepting applications at this time. I change my mind, you are a definite troll here to waste our time...

GzuzKryzt
6th May 2006, 06:13 PM
Upon telling the Bishop of my church this( who is also a phsyciatrist) he asked my permission to have me sent to the phyciatric ward for an assesment. This was last year. I am very healthy and am on no medications. I suppose I could use him to notarize the application.

Does this mean you sent an unnotarized application to the JREF?

Would you mind posting what you did send to the JREF? Like, for example, your claim letter?
(As demanded here http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
(...) Rule #12: "EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of what will constitute the demonstration."

Orphia Nay
6th May 2006, 07:08 PM
i can tell you right now, last night before bed she had a tuna sandwich. Right now she is eating an english muffin, with ham, cheese, and eggs for breakfast.


Can (or has) she confirm(ed) this? And if so, why do you believe her if she is, as you say, 'not honest'?

Orphia Nay
6th May 2006, 07:15 PM
As GzuzKryzt posted, what did you send to the JREF?

If it was an email, please post a copy of it.

Have you received a reply? If so, please post it.

That information will greatly help us advise you how to proceed with your claim.

Timothy
6th May 2006, 07:26 PM
you have to understand now that to keep a certain amount of spark in our relationship for the time being we consider ourself "partners" or "telepathy frineds".
Hmmm. "Friends with telepathy benefits"? Sounds like you have a good thing going.

- Timothy

aargh57
6th May 2006, 08:51 PM
Well designing a test protocol would be simple. Put us in seprate rooms and start the testing.


Jesus Tap Dancing Christ already! Just do it on your own before you come down. If you're so sure it will work then why not do an exact replica of the test you will do when you come down here and take the challenge. That way you will know for certain that you can pass that particular test. Plenty of us have asked you to do this on your own and post your results but you continue to just ramble on about tuna fish and movies. Please tell us exactly why you won't do a preliminary test on your own.

case sensitive
7th May 2006, 02:18 PM
Is there any chance that you could post a picture of this amazing lady?

I would like to be sure she actually exists. She doesn't "feel" real to me. I am not being mean, just want to make sure the rest of world can see your friend too. You can blur her face out if you want.

webfusion
7th May 2006, 03:12 PM
Is there any chance that you could post a picture of this amazing lady?
I would like to be sure she actually exists. She doesn't "feel" real to me. I am not being mean, just want to make sure the rest of world can see your friend too. You can blur her face out if you want.

I've already made this suggestion -- it was ignored
(see my post #69) (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1617995&postcount=69)

Also ignored by 'neutralize' are the various specific questions asked here about the Application process itself.

From the OP ---
"I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts."

No, first and foremost, you are claiming to have "mailed my Application form" --- which we are skeptical of you actually having done so.

Let's get past this primary roadblock 1st, and then maybe move ahead ...

rjh01
7th May 2006, 03:21 PM
Will this be one application that is withdrawn before an official response? That is assuming that it even exists.

Are the two people close friends or only met about three times? My BS meter is trying to tell me something.

hellaeon
7th May 2006, 06:08 PM
having worked with two self claimed "telepaths", the test protocol was to put them in different rooms where they could not see or hear each other, and then to give the "sender" random words from the dictionary, which the "reciever" would write down. each run was 20 words. Needless to say, nothing even approaching the odds of random chance was noted let alone signs of telepathy...

This is a fantastic way to test telepathy.

TheBoyPaj
7th May 2006, 10:56 PM
Does anyone else think that it's just a cat?

aargh57
7th May 2006, 11:56 PM
having worked with two self claimed "telepaths", the test protocol was to put them in different rooms where they could not see or hear each other, and then to give the "sender" random words from the dictionary, which the "reciever" would write down. each run was 20 words. Needless to say, nothing even approaching the odds of random chance was noted let alone signs of telepathy...

Results not even approaching the odds of random chance! Perhaps the senders were paranormal after all.

Mendeli
8th May 2006, 04:49 AM
Does anyone else think that it's just a cat?

If it is, it seems to be remarkably capable of forum communication... for a cat. Oh well it hasn't exactly thoroughly addressed all the questions and concerns but nevertheless has managed to write some words and sentences that can be read and understood to some level.

After all, my cat usually only manages to write something like .li8uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr7yyyyyyuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuzsssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

chillzero
8th May 2006, 04:59 AM
OK, thanks for your support everyone. Tonight we have decided to conduct some "tests" I'll tell you all in advance I don't have this girls phone number, we don't see each other or talk to each other often. So I'm going on a walk and will be sure to exchange some thoughts.

In view of all the other posts you have made about your nightly 'communications', what relevance does a phone number have?

I have some very uncomfortable thoughts about where this particular thread is heading in the not too distant future. BoyPaj - I don't think it's a cat, but I also don't believe it's a female, live, human being.

Being charitable, I'd say the guy has a major first-time crush on someone independant and unattainable. Being cynical, I'd say he's having a laugh here and making it all up.

Ririon
8th May 2006, 05:25 AM
Being charitable, I'd say the guy has a major first-time crush on someone independant and unattainable. Being cynical, I'd say he's having a laugh here and making it all up.
An operational application log would sort that out to some degree. At least it would be clear whether an actual application has been sent or not.

So pretty please with sugar on top: Can we get KRAMER MkII hired and working ASAP? Or at least a hint about when that might happen?

GzuzKryzt
8th May 2006, 06:07 AM
Does anyone else think that it's just a cat?

What we think has at best a secondary relevance. The proof is in the posting. ;)



TheBoyPaj, you do like Spandau Ballet, don't you?

chran
8th May 2006, 06:16 AM
OK to answer a few questions, yes we have tested this ability. As I said we play hide and seek in the middle of the night. She will let me know where to find her and I'll go look. Whenever I look into her eyes I like hyperventalate and everything looks like Stark Trek when they go into warp speed. She often visits my back yard at night and knocks on my walls etc. to tease me. Dude, ask her out. It's spring-time!

Good luck with it all. :blush:

petre
8th May 2006, 07:23 AM
I try not to be too harsh. Many (potential) applicants are reluctant to actually carry out tests, because they'd really LIKE it to be true, and the only thing that would force them to abandon it would be tests that demonstrate it is not.

To such a person, a sensation that someone is eating tuna is interesting and perhaps even worthy of communicating to others. To a skeptic, it's pointless waste of time to even mention it, unless it can be shown that the person was ACTUALLY eating tuna at the time. To the skeptic, any further communication without relavent data is simply restating the unsupported assumption again.

Now, such people sometimes begin to understand this, and a meaningful discussion can then occur. Others are unwilling to understand this view, and then continue on without ever making an effort to understand, continually adding uninteresting information.

Any bets on which direction it'll go from here?

GzuzKryzt
8th May 2006, 07:35 AM
...
Any bets on which direction it'll go from here?

At what odds? ;)

petre
8th May 2006, 08:09 AM
At what odds? ;)

I dunno, he seems somewhat grounded, in that he's not not inventing any crazy ideas to explain how such an ability actually works. The ability to accept that it could be beyond understanding is at least a more reasonable position than adding theories about ghosts, imaginary scientific particles, fairies, etc. I'd think there'd be some people that could believe me might be shown the proper way to explore it in a meaningful way.

Say 1 to 3 on either side, the house always has the edge ;P

Lamuella
8th May 2006, 08:48 AM
Neutralize, when you talk to this girl in person about the psychic connection (and I do have to specify when you talk to her with your mouth, not just your mind), does she acknowledge that it exists? You've said before that she is dishonest, does part of this dishonesty extend to saying that there is no connection?

Nucular
8th May 2006, 11:38 AM
Just what I was going to ask. So there is no point in my post. Ah well.

Neutralize, when you talk to this girl in person about the psychic connection (and I do have to specify when you talk to her with your mouth, not just your mind), does she acknowledge that it exists? You've said before that she is dishonest, does part of this dishonesty extend to saying that there is no connection?

... or to saying that no, she wasn't in the park just out of sight, or tapping on your wall at night.

Neutralize, what you described could be psychic, or could be examples of fairly common psychosis-like symptoms; your doctor might have something to say about it?

I know you mentioned something about a priest who's also a psychiatrist, but if I were you I'd visit a doctor to whom you are a patient, not a parishioner, and tell him the whole story. Maybe even show him this thread.

Because indeed you may be psychic, but the other possibility (which doesn't necessarily rule out the first) might need attention?

TheBoyPaj
8th May 2006, 12:32 PM
Well, I can only go by my own personal experience. I am VERY good at quoting lines from This Is Spinal Tap. I reckon that, if you were to throw me a random line from the film, I could tell you the line that follows it at least 90% of the time. Even the obscure and mumbled ones. I've never tested this, but I'm pretty sure I could do it.

But offer me a million dollars to demonstrate this feat? What sort of mug do you take me for? I dont need to prove myself to you!

Morrigan
8th May 2006, 03:55 PM
$10 this "friend" is the imaginary product of a schizophrenic mind....

Nucular
8th May 2006, 04:03 PM
$10 this "friend" is the imaginary product of a schizophrenic mind....
For my money, the friend exists, and is indeed vaguely aware of her admirer. But doesn't rap on his wall in the night.

But I just wish Notarize would come back to tell us what's going on.

Edit: I mean Neutralize - strange Freudian slip there :D

Also, I meant to add - Neutralize, even if this stuff is more a product of some strange psychological phenomena than psychic phenomena, doesn't mean it's necessarily a huge amount to worry about - often just a normal part of growing up. Get yourself checked out anyway though, is what I'd do.

TheBoyPaj
9th May 2006, 03:59 AM
Well, I can only go by my own personal experience. I am VERY good at quoting lines from This Is Spinal Tap...

How did this get here? I definitely used the reply function at the bottom of the "A million dollars isn't much" thread. It just looks stupid on this page.

GzuzKryzt
9th May 2006, 07:06 AM
I just came back from work to check if you posted something, Neutralize, after viewing the thread this morning. (GMT +1)

Perhaps you simply should disregard the posters donning medical gowns. Although they probably mean well though they act, well, mean.

Because I'd like to hear your take on our claim-related inquiries.

rjh01
9th May 2006, 03:04 PM
Been almost three days since we heard from her. Do you think she has fled the forum? Her mother may have found out what she has been doing.

CaptainManacles
9th May 2006, 11:29 PM
I wasn't certain she was there because sometimes she's not honest.

Anyone else notice that? Sometimes during these telepathy sessions she's "not honest". So some of these times she sends him a message telling him to meet her somewhere, she's not there! That c***.

Furthermore, she doesn't seem to pay that much attention to him when they meet in public, he's characterized the relationship as not extending much past the psychic level, and when she's "not honest" it's when they meet in public, never late at night when she happens to show up in some random city block at the same time as him. That coupled with his ability to know exactly what she's eating, and I wonder if the entire relationaship is just in his head. He could just be having dreams about playing hide and go seek, or they could be a psychocitic episode.

Edit:
Neutralize, when you talk to this girl in person about the psychic connection.....

oh, I guess someone did beat me to it

webfusion
10th May 2006, 05:51 PM
rjh01 -- why refer to neutralize as 'her' ?

In light of the new announcement by the JREF, it seems that this "applicant" will very soon be discovered to have not sent in a proper application, I predict.

rjh01
10th May 2006, 06:55 PM
Female? Maybe. See post 51, 52. Her friend has a uterus. Post 100 says she got all dressed up. I do admit there is nothing conclusive.

What does worry me is post 51

... we only talked like three times at school ... We sometimes run sround playing hide and seek in the middle of the night.

If they sometimes run around in the middle of the night they should have talked more than three times. Something is fishy about the post.

4 days and no word from her. Any point in continuing this thread?

GzuzKryzt
11th May 2006, 12:22 AM
...
4 days and no word from her. Any point in continuing this thread?

You mean besides you posting the end, Mr. Thread Ender? ;)



We may hear back from Neutralize. Also, we will probably see soon who did not send an application and actually did.
This will of course not put an end to conjectures but it will shed some light on Neutralize's application.

Yahzi
11th May 2006, 01:42 AM
$10 this "friend" is the imaginary product of a schizophrenic mind....
Oh thank dog. I was beginning to wonder why no one had mentioned the obvious.

The other alternative is that the girl is real, but the relationship is imaginary. This is kind of scary. Having fantasies about a girl is one thing; discussing those fantasies as if they were real on a public message board is another step towards scary.

The third alternative - well, let's be honest. There is no third alternative.


Rjoh1 - I think it the evidence is that Neutralize is male. Why would a female think it was interesting to mention that she could feel another girl's utereus (how would she tell it from her own, anyway)? Instead, that comment was meant to show how close their relationship was - that even as a man, he could feel her femaleness. That's my guess.

Rasmus
11th May 2006, 03:07 AM
Rjoh1 - I think it the evidence is that Neutralize is male. Why would a female think it was interesting to mention that she could feel another girl's utereus (how would she tell it from her own, anyway)? Instead, that comment was meant to show how close their relationship was - that even as a man, he could feel her femaleness. That's my guess.

You think either interpretation actually makes sense?

How would a man know that it's an uterus he's feeling? :D

Mojo
11th May 2006, 08:16 AM
The third alternative - well, let's be honest. There is no third alternative.Yes there is:

:tr:

Plasmadog
11th May 2006, 03:22 PM
Rjoh1 - I think it the evidence is that Neutralize is male. Why would a female think it was interesting to mention that she could feel another girl's utereus (how would she tell it from her own, anyway)?
I agree. Furthermore, why would a female describe that feeling as being located in the stomach. I'm sure that's something that only a guy would say.

Rasmus
11th May 2006, 04:07 PM
I agree. Furthermore, why would a female describe that feeling as being located in the stomach. I'm sure that's something that only a guy would say.

Maybe the other girl is a bit taller?

rjh01
11th May 2006, 04:58 PM
You lot sound like a bunch of woos debating over how many angles fit on the top of a pin. (S)he is not coming back nor will Kramer mark 2 tell us the answer so what is the point of debating this? This thread died at post 138.

Lamuella
11th May 2006, 05:43 PM
rjh01, if you don't want to take part in this thread any more, there are links all over the place that will take you to different parts of the board. Don't feel that we're forcing you to keep posting in this thread.

Katachresis
11th May 2006, 10:31 PM
You lot sound like a bunch of woos debating over how many angles fit on the top of a pin. (S)he is not coming back nor will Kramer mark 2 tell us the answer so what is the point of debating this? This thread died at post 138.

rjh01, if you don't want to take part in this thread any more, there are links all over the place that will take you to different parts of the board. Don't feel that we're forcing you to keep posting in this thread.

I believe rjh01 was simply pointing out that this thread has ceased to expand in any way. I subscribe to many threads, like this one. Until I see a new idea from Nuetralize, it seems pointless to comment.

Of course, other than this one. :)

westphalia
11th May 2006, 10:40 PM
I am VERY good at quoting lines from This Is Spinal Tap. I reckon that, if you were to throw me a random line from the film, I could tell you the line that follows it at least 90% of the time. Even the obscure and mumbled ones. I've never tested this, but I'm pretty sure I could do it.

I can do the exact same thing with "Seinfeld" episodes. Of course, perhaps that means I have a talent "about nothing.":)

Mendeli
12th May 2006, 12:22 AM
Tuna bisque is hearty enough to serve as an entree with a salad and bread or crackers.

INGREDIENTS:

* 1 large can (12 ounces) tuna, drained
* 1 tablespoon butter
* 1/2 cup minced onion
* 1/4 cup minced green bell pepper
* 3 tablespoons flour
* 1/2 teaspoon salt
* 3 cups milk
* 1 cup grated Cheddar cheese
* dash cayenne
* 2 teaspoons diced pimiento or roasted red pepper
* 1 to 2 tablespoons sherry, optional

PREPARATION:
Melt butter in a medium saucepan. Add onion and green pepper; sauté until tender but not browned. Blend in flour and salt. Gradually stir in the milk. Add shredded cheese and cayenne. Cook, stirring, until the mixture is thickened and cheese is melted. Stir in tuna, pimiento, and sherry, if using.
Serves 6.

Ririon
12th May 2006, 12:39 AM
12 ounces is 340 g
1 US cup is 2.36 dl
(I'm not suggesting you should measure to extreme precision, but this should give you an idea.) Spoons are close enough in size that it doesn't really matter.

Happy cooking, worldwide!

Orphia Nay
12th May 2006, 01:41 AM
There's a world of difference between reading a woman's mind, and a woman playing with your mind.

Mendeli
12th May 2006, 02:11 AM
12 ounces is 340 g
1 US cup is 2.36 dl

When dealing with the need to transform units like these, I've found google to be of exceptional help

try this google search for example:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=12+ounces+in+grams

vIQleS
13th May 2006, 01:55 AM
The other alternative is that the girl is real, but the relationship is imaginary. This is kind of scary. Having fantasies about a girl is one thing; discussing those fantasies as if they were real on a public message board is another step towards scary.

This sounds disturbingly like a flatmate I had a few years ago. He was convinced that he could read the mind of a a girl he vaguely knew, and that she was secretly in love with him. She was 14 at the time and one day 7 police officers showed up at my house and took him away in handcuffs. Never saw him again.

Neutralize - if you're still around and not a troll - go and talk to a psychiatrist. Pick one at random from the phone book and tell him everything, if he gives you a clean bill of health after a couple of sessions, then talk to the girl and make sure she understands that you are reading her mind, and confirm that you are getting it right.

Then try out some of the simple tests that have been mentioned. Even if the tests fail, she might still want to go out with you - if you talk to her. (Real talking - not telepathy)

TheChadd
14th May 2006, 10:46 AM
This my friends, is a troll.

Neutralize
14th May 2006, 11:15 PM
Since this thread is getting a little off topic.....

First of all I'm not a Troll. Second of all I am a male.
Sorry to dissapoint but the application I sent wasn't very good, so I will send a more detailed one that is notarized WITH her signature.
\
I'm hoping to talk to her on Thursday, she's starting to take little interest in me because I now own 2 Drift cars. Last time she came over shbe brought a friend and they were shining a lasr pointer in my house. This is all irrevelant. So I'll hit up a few more posts when I have completed "proper testing"

For all the doubters; Imagine having telepathy with a girl.....
For an entire year, I wouldn't be on the net posting if we weren't certain.

TheChadd
14th May 2006, 11:56 PM
You're a troll.

Either that or you're a stalker.

Trolls are probably more common on the net than stalkers,
so I hedge my bets.

nathan
15th May 2006, 12:31 AM
First of all I'm not a Troll.
Glad to hear it :)

Sorry to dissapoint but the application I sent wasn't very good, so I will send a more detailed one that is notarized WITH her signature.

um, you seem to misunderstand what the application requirements are. The form must be signed 'before a notary public'. Google quickly pointed me to these explanations of what that means in more detail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notary_public (detailed)

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/chs/osr/notary.html (simplified)

Darat
15th May 2006, 12:35 AM
Please keep this thread on topic for this section i.e. to discuss issues directly related to the Million Dollar Challenge.

Nucular
15th May 2006, 04:13 AM
For all the doubters; Imagine having telepathy with a girl.....
For an entire year, I wouldn't be on the net posting if we weren't certain.
Neutralize - glad you're still around, hope you've been following the thread.

Well - do bear in mind that you can be certain and yet mistaken. That's what the JREF Challenge is, in part, there to sort out.

There are many, many ways one can be mistakenly certain, and telepathy is an extremely common thing to be mistakenly certain about (I've been there myself).

Also to say, if you address your post to "all the doubters"... well, inevitably that's all of us, this is a sceptical board: if there's one thing we all do, it's doubt. Not a personal thing.

You understand that one of the possible ways you could be mistakenly certain is that you perhaps haven't done the right sort of 'checking' - that is, it's hard for us to imagine how if you don't talk face-to-face in real life with this girl very often, how you can have checked out your near-constant telepathic connection.

And the whole thing with nocturnal laser pointers and hide-and-seek sounds, well, just a bit too much like the sort of thing one could easily become mistaken about.

So I guess most of us here would be interested in taking the conversation around to thinking about ways you could test it to rule out being mistaken? Have you thought around this?

And probably the most important thing at the moment would be for you to tell us that you've spoken directly to the girl, using your mouth and vocal chords, and that she's confirmed to you, using hers, that yes, you are in psychic contact with her, and she's aware of what you're describing. You get why, right?

case sensitive
1st June 2006, 08:15 AM
Neutralize... come on already! How are those experiments going?

rjh01
1st June 2006, 03:12 PM
About 17 days since we last heard from him. May I suggest this says something?

Nucular
1st June 2006, 03:37 PM
I think he might have talked to her with his voice...

case sensitive
1st June 2006, 04:12 PM
I think he might have talked to her with his voice...

That is probably not a good thing. "hey remember me? We talked for 2 minutes last christmas and since then I have been feeling your uterus quite a bit. I know you have been thinking of me too... When we play at night without ever meeting... Who are you calling? Don't run! When I think of you at night I get a fishy tasty in my mouth!!!"

GzuzKryzt
2nd June 2006, 09:14 PM
Hello skeptics. Today I mailed my application form for the challenge. I am claiming to have the ability to read my friends thoughts. I am claiming that we have telepathy. I am very certain of this because this has been like this for over a year.


Have you heard back from the JREF concerning your application, Neutralize?

DrMatt
4th June 2006, 06:34 PM
I'm still laughing about the co-worker whose farts scare Batman.