REAL conspiracies

[El Greco]

What do you think has been the greatest REAL conspiracy ever ? What about the 20th century ?

[HeavyAaron]

What do you think has been the greatest REAL conspiracy ever ? What about the 20th century ?

Um... by definition the best ones we wouldn't know about.

Aaron

[punchdrunk]

Dubya's presidential victory in 2000?

Bwahahaheleventyhaliburton!

[Nyarlathotep]

I would call the 9/11 hijackers a pretty sucessful conspiracy. Depending on what you are calling a conspiracy, Al Qaeda has has, in general, proven to be a pretty successful band of conspirators whose actions have had some far reashing effects.

The Bosnian anarchists who assasinated Franz Ferdinand and preciptated WWI also pulled off a conpiracy with some pretty far reaching consequences.

A lesser known conspiracy that was pretty bold was the a conspiracy between the US government and The Mafia (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/luciano.html) to protect the New York docks from sabotage. The same government/mafia contacts helped in the Allied invasion of Sicily.

[gnome]

Let's make some definitions here.. I propose that to qualify, it must have been successful at its objective, and then discovered and well documented afterwards. For "Greatest" we could consider size (number of people that had to participate or be influenced into silence), or possibly impact (how big of a change did the conspiracy cause)...

[Tmy]

That whole landing on the moon thing. LIE!

[Mike B.]

I would call the 9/11 hijackers a pretty sucessful conspiracy. Depending on what you are calling a conspiracy, Al Qaeda has has, in general, proven to be a pretty successful band of conspirators whose actions have had some far reashing effects.

The Bosnian anarchists who assasinated Franz Ferdinand and preciptated WWI also pulled off a conpiracy with some pretty far reaching consequences.

A lesser known conspiracy that was pretty bold was the a conspiracy between the US government and The Mafia (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/luciano.html) to protect the New York docks from sabotage. The same government/mafia contacts helped in the Allied invasion of Sicily.

have to agree with all that.

[American]

er.... testing.

[gnome]

er.... testing.

Failed. :D

[a_unique_person]

What do you think has been the greatest REAL conspiracy ever ? What about the 20th century ?

Greatest might be the wrong word to use, as a real, successful conspiracy might have had disasterous results.

[Mendeli]

For eastern europe:

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, also known as the Hitler-Stalin Pact or Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact

Although officially labeled a "non-aggression treaty", the pact included a secret protocol, in which the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania were divided into spheres of interest of the parties. The secret protocol explicitly assumed "territorial and political rearrangements" in the areas of these countries. Subsequently all the mentioned countries were invaded, occupied or forced to cede part of their territory by either the Soviet Union, Germany, or both.


For Finland:

On November 26 1939, the Soviets staged the Shelling of Mainila, an incident in which Soviet artillery shelled areas near the Russian village of Mainila, then announced that a Finnish artillery attack had killed Soviet troops. The Soviet Union demanded that Finns apologise for the incident and move their forces 20-25 km from the border. The Finns denied any responsibility for the attack and refused to give in. The Soviet Union used it as an excuse to withdraw from the non-aggression pact. On November 30, Soviet forces attacked with 23 divisions, totalling 450,000 men

[Beady]

Does the Wansee Conference count?

[Kerberos]

For Finland:
I'm not sure that really counts, I don't know the details, but it strikes me as more of a thin and transparent pretext that a great conspiracy.

[a_unique_person]

For eastern europe:


For Finland:

It certainly was a conspiracy, but it didn't work out to well for the participants.

[CapelDodger]

Does the Wansee Conference count?
I think it should.

[CapelDodger]

It certainly was a conspiracy, but it didn't work out to well for the participants.
Not in the short-term, but in the longer-term it served Soviet interests. The failure of the initial campaign provided many valuable lessons. The success of the later campaign captured strategically vital ground north of Leningrad, which might have fallen without it.

That said, I agree with Kerberos that it was a common sort of pretext, much like the "Polish attack" on Germany in 1939.

[CapelDodger]

Still no mention of the Global Warming Conspiracy? I guess these are busy days for denialists.

[Hutch]

One might consider the Manhattan Project and the Enigma as being consipacies as they were carried out by Governments in secret from their own people. However, I am not sure how far one could carry that analogy, as during wartime it is expected that "Secrets" will be kept well-guarded.

Still, being able to build the first working Nuclear reactor right in the Middle of chicago and to build a brand-new city in the Middle of Tennessee (Oak Ridge) and keep it out of the limelight is pretty good, even for a Government...

[andyandy]

the repubicans managing to convince the US people that "liberal" is a dirty word.....:)

[wastepanel]

How about the USSR collapse? The country had the world convinced it had an economy on par with the US. It wasn't until later we found out that the country's money reserves never existed.

[casebro]

Anybody have any CT's about Yalta? Perhaps so great, we still don't know...

[Strider1974]

I always liked the soviets parading oversized, paper-mache missiles to scare the West.

[WildCat]

The N. Koreans have built entire fake cities along the border w/ the south to make them appear prosperous. There's a pic of one here. (http://www.theglantzfamily.com/DMZ2003-19.jpg)

[peptoabysmal]

Illuminati? Free Masons?

Hello!?!

:D

[CptColumbo]

Seriously, one I find interesting is the conspiracy against Cliff Robertson. A producer forges Robertson's name to a check for $10,000, and is caught. He goes on to head a studio and Robertson is blacklisted, despite the fact that he was the victim. An Oscar winner who ends up doing Escape from L.A..

[Kerberos]

How about the USSR collapse? The country had the world convinced it had an economy on par with the US. It wasn't until later we found out that the country's money reserves never existed.
It was evident the the Soviet union was weaker than the US long before it colapsed. People might not have expected it to colapse but it was pretty damn clear who was winning the cold war.

[CFLarsen]

It was evident the the Soviet union was weaker than the US long before it colapsed. People might not have expected it to colapse but it was pretty damn clear who was winning the cold war.
There were no winners of the Cold War. Only degrees of losing.

[WildCat]

It was evident the the Soviet union was weaker than the US long before it colapsed. People might not have expected it to colapse but it was pretty damn clear who was winning the cold war.
Oh right the soviet union collapsed right it was the first communist regime to collapse d00d do some research it didn't collapse it was a controlled demolition using thermite and all the people were killed before by nwo globalists now do your research next time.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Darat]

What do you think has been the greatest REAL conspiracy ever ? What about the 20th century ?

The conspiracy to conceal the data (and later on to prevent others re-discovering the evidence) that showed that cigarettes were killing people.

[geni]

In terms of shear size the various allied projects during WW2. The Manhatten project, Operation Barclay/Operation Mincemeat, Operation Fortitude and the like.

[CapelDodger]

The conspiracy to conceal the data (and later on to prevent others re-discovering the evidence) that showed that cigarettes were killing people.
I have to go with that.

[Cylinder]

In terms of shear size the various allied projects during WW2. The Manhatten project, Operation Barclay/Operation Mincemeat, Operation Fortitude and the like.

Certainly Fortitude South/Quicksilver and the XX system have to arnk up there somewhere. Also the German "relocation" program for European Jews.

[CapelDodger]

Certainly Fortitude South/Quicksilver and the XX system have to arnk up there somewhere. Also the German "relocation" program for European Jews.
I think there's a distinction between a military deception, which is bound to be revealed at some point, and a conspiracy, which is meant to remain secret. So I wouldn't include Patten's ghost army group, but I would include the Final Solution (mentioned previously as the Wansee Conference).

It's a difficult choice between that and the Tobacco-Pushers Conspiracy. In terms of numbers of deaths and the lifetime of the conspiracy, I'd have to go for the Tobacco-Pushers.

[geni]

The details of the Teller-Ulam design.

[Rob Lister]

The conspiracy to conceal the data (and later on to prevent others re-discovering the evidence) that showed that cigarettes were killing people.

Pffft. That's tiny compared to "Silent Scream"

This resulted in the ban of DDT. Tobacco is but a mosquito bite.

[Tricky]

Pffft. That's tiny compared to "Silent Scream"

This resulted in the ban of DDT. Tobacco is but a mosquito bite.
I think you mean "Silent Spring". "The Silent Scream" is a clumsy anti-abortion film.

[Elind]

What do you think has been the greatest REAL conspiracy ever ? What about the 20th century ?

The Da Vinci code, of course.

Before that; the Jesus stuff?:o

[Rob Lister]

I think you mean "Silent Spring". "The Silent Scream" is a clumsy anti-abortion film.

Sorry, I must have gotten my horrors mixed up.

[Tricky]

Sorry, I must have gotten my horrors mixed up.
Yep.

But while Rachel Carson may have been wrong about DDT (and I emphasize "may") there is no question that environmentalism, including the strict testing of pesticides, has saved many bird species from extinction, including, quite likely, the bald eagle.

[SezMe]

The N. Koreans have built entire fake cities along the border w/ the south to make them appear prosperous. There's a pic of one here. (http://www.theglantzfamily.com/DMZ2003-19.jpg)
I don't get it, WildCat. Who is supposed to be fooled? The South Koreans? Surely not, since I assume that knowledge of the condition of North Korea is well known...or is that a bad assumption.

[Elind]

Yep.

But while Rachel Carson may have been wrong about DDT (and I emphasize "may") there is no question that environmentalism, including the strict testing of pesticides, has saved many bird species from extinction, including, quite likely, the bald eagle.

She wasn't wrong in principle was she?

[geni]

She wasn't wrong in principle was she?

That depends. Do you view birds as worth saveing?

[Tricky]

She wasn't wrong in principle was she?
No, but some of her specifics were almost certainly incorrect. DDT is not the monster compound that she made it out to be, but it is certainly not benign either. But there were many other chemicals out there that were harming wildlife, especially birds, and by raising the awareness of them, she probably saved many species. Her detractors will focus on the mistakes she made, and say, "She's a liar." Honest environmentalists like myself will say, "Yes there were mistakes. Let's find them and fix them."

Origin of the Species is full of mistakes too. That doesn't mean that Darwin was wrong in principle.

[Kerberos]

The conspiracy to conceal the data (and later on to prevent others re-discovering the evidence) that showed that cigarettes were killing people.
Minor derail: Did you know that the first to discover the harmfull effects of smoking were the Nazis?

[Polaris]

Minor derail: Did you know that the first to discover the harmfull effects of smoking were the Nazis?

I'm sure people knew it was bad before 1933. But if they did, then hey, it bumps their good to bad ratio up to 3/-12,000,000. (The other two are jet-propulsion and the Volkswagen).

I would say the gentlemens' agreement cover-up of the harmful effects of lead in everyday products by Rockefeller and his cronies in the early decades of the 20th century. That's gotta be much worse than Big Tobacco. Cigarettes are optional - but you kinda need gasoline, paint and toothpaste.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I don't get it, WildCat. Who is supposed to be fooled? The South Koreans? Surely not, since I assume that knowledge of the condition of North Korea is well known...or is that a bad assumption.

No, that's a valid assumption. With the exception of the fringe groups here who are North Korean apologists, most South Koreans at least have general knowledge of the conditions in the North.

I think he is alluding to the fact that both North and South Korea are allowed to have one village within the DMZ. The South has an actual farming village in the DMZ. The North... well, they made a village, only nobody lives there. It does have what is supposedly the largest flag in the world, though, which you can see in the photo provided. But yeah, I'm not sure it really fits as a conspiracy.

As far as conspiracies, how about the assassination of Nicholas II and his family? Very famous and very successful.

[Elind]

That depends. Do you view birds as worth saveing?

:confused: Did you misunderstand my post?

[Elind]

DDT is not the monster compound that she made it out to be, but it is certainly not benign either. But there were many other chemicals out there that were harming wildlife, especially birds, and by raising the awareness of them, she probably saved many species.

More importantly, she probably created the awareness that there could be chemicals harmful to life on a global scale.

[WildCat]

I don't get it, WildCat. Who is supposed to be fooled? The South Koreans? Surely not, since I assume that knowledge of the condition of North Korea is well known...or is that a bad assumption.
Apparently so, the N. Koreans aren't exactly living in the same reality we are. Bat**** crazy they are.

[gnome]

I often felt the same way about Soviet "elections". Who exactly were they hoping to deceive?