Unfinished Civil Rights business?

[GroundStrength]

And some fear the unfinished business of the civil rights movement will fall to the wayside as America turns its attention to a newly energized Hispanic minority with growing political and economic clout.

"All of this has made me start thinking, 'What's going to happen to African-Americans?' " said Brendon L. Laster, 32, a black fund-raiser at Howard University here, who has been watching the marches. "What's going to happen to our unfinished agenda?"

This quote made me ask the question, "What unfinished business?". I would have thought that blacks have attained equality here in the US, if not even having had the pendulum swing a little past center with affirmative action laws.

What then is this unfinished business of the black civil rights movement?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/04/us/04immig.html?ei=5065&en=e1be3496cd302bd2&ex=1147320000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[Cleon]

Locally, the Civil Rights-era leaders from the King era--such as James Orange, Joseph Lowery, Tim McDonald, etc--have all been very supportive of the immigrant rights movement.

[drkitten]

This quote made me ask the question, "What unfinished business?".

Economic and social equality.

Blacks have (mostly) achieved legal equality in the United States, but they've certainly not gotten the others. From the article: " In 2004, 72 percent of black male high school dropouts in their 20's were jobless, compared with 34 percent of white and 19 percent of Hispanic dropouts." Obviously, this is a problem that needs fixing, although it's probably better to fix it through cultural change and education than through passing new laws.

The whole point of the article cited is how the immigration question impacts blacks and whites differently, e.g. "nearly twice as many blacks as whites said that they or a family member had lost a job, or not gotten a job, because an employer hired an immigrant worker. Blacks were also more likely than whites to feel that immigrants take jobs away from American citizens." If low-skill unemployment is specifically a black problem, adding a lot of new low-skill immigrant workers will disproportionately impact the black population. Sounds like something that the political leadership should be aware of in crafting their policies, and therefore something that the various "civil rights" leaders to make sure they are aware of.

[GroundStrength]

Economic and social equality.

Yes, but aren't these things better left to the individual to correct for himself/herself?

Blacks have (mostly) achieved legal equality in the United States, but they've certainly not gotten the others. From the article: " In 2004, 72 percent of black male high school dropouts in their 20's were jobless, compared with 34 percent of white and 19 percent of Hispanic dropouts." Obviously, this is a problem that needs fixing, although it's probably better to fix it through cultural change and education than through passing new laws.

So then perhaps these should be individual responsibilities and not goals of the black civil rights movement.

If low-skill unemployment is specifically a black problem, adding a lot of new low-skill immigrant workers will disproportionately impact the black population. Sounds like something that the political leadership should be aware of in crafting their policies, and therefore something that the various "civil rights" leaders to make sure they are aware of.

Why should lawmakers take this into consideration? I thought that the main goal of the black civil rights movement was equality. This would be like one of my children convincing me to treat them as an adult, then asking for special treatment when something goes wrong.

You stated that blacks have mostly gained legal equality in the United States, in what areas are they lacking legal equality?

[Grammatron]

Locally, the Civil Rights-era leaders from the King era--such as James Orange, Joseph Lowery, Tim McDonald, etc--have all been very supportive of the immigrant rights movement.

Illegal-immigrant rights movement.

[Cleon]

Illegal-immigrant rights movement.

Keep repeating that if you like. I still refuse to refer to human beings as "illegal." Cope.

[Nyarlathotep]

Keep repeating that if you like. I still refuse to refer to human beings as "illegal." Cope.
The humans may not be illegal, but the act of their immigrating here was. Thus "illegal immigrants". Refusing to refer to human beings as "illegal" doesn't change the fact that their actions, were. cope.

[Cleon]

The humans may not be illegal, but the act of their immigrating here was. Thus "illegal immigrants". Refusing to refer to human beings as "illegal" doesn't change the fact that their actions, were. cope.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

[drkitten]

Yes, but aren't these things better left to the individual to correct for himself/herself?

No.

For example, if I need startup capital to launch (or expand) a business, I'm not going to be able to "correct it for myself." I'm going to need someone else, someone with money, to give it to me, whether as a grant, a loan, an equity investment, whatever.

So how do I get that person to give it to me? Write to a venture capitalist and ask for a check? I don't know any venture capitalists. He's going to want to see a business plan. I don't know how to write one of those.

Now, as it happens, there's a "small business development" office at the local university that has exactly that information, and even has contacts, consultants, the whole nine yards, specifically to help people like me. In fact, there's even such a business development office run as part of the local government. These offices are there specifically to provide the sort of expertise that I don't have.

But if I don't know about these offices, I won't use them. If they're not placed in an area that I can get to, then I won't use them.

Part of what the "civil rights leaders" can do is to agitate to make sure, on the one hand, that these programs are well-enough publicized so that the people without political connections, typically the people who need them the most, know about them. On the other hand, they can also help educate their constituent populations about these things. Similarly, they can point out that putting this office in the middle of a wealthy upscale suburban neighborhood makes it difficult for downtown blacks to get access to it -- and they can request that a branch office be opened or the entire office moved to better serve the community.




So then perhaps these should be individual responsibilities and not goals of the black civil rights movement.

Or perhaps not. One of the thing that many localities do, for example, is sponsor and run job fairs to help local employers connect with local employees. I see nothing wrong with "civil rights leaders" asking for some of those job fairs to be scheduled downtown instead of in Upper Yuppie Heights....



Why should lawmakers take this into consideration? I thought that the main goal of the black civil rights movement was equality.

... which is why white folks lobby their lawmakers all the time, too. If a white person is concerned about rising crime in his neighborhood, he will ask for a police substation to be opened nearby. His lawmakers will take this into account when they set the police budget. Why should only whites be able to do this?

[Grammatron]

Keep repeating that if you like. I still refuse to refer to human beings as "illegal." Cope.

You can justify breaking laws anyway you want, but at the end of the day they are still breaking a law.

[Grammatron]

No.

For example, if I need startup capital to launch (or expand) a business, I'm not going to be able to "correct it for myself." I'm going to need someone else, someone with money, to give it to me, whether as a grant, a loan, an equity investment, whatever.
*snip*

Part of what the "civil rights leaders" can do is to agitate to make sure, on the one hand, that these programs are well-enough publicized so that the people without political connections, typically the people who need them the most, know about them. On the other hand, they can also help educate their constituent populations about these things. Similarly, they can point out that putting this office in the middle of a wealthy upscale suburban neighborhood makes it difficult for downtown blacks to get access to it -- and they can request that a branch office be opened or the entire office moved to better serve the community.
What's interesting is that majority of the population who start their own business are immigrants. For the most part they tend to have a language barrier to overcome as well, and they don't start of in a wealthy upscale suburb, so I am curious why they can figure out these programs so easily but people who are born in this country and speak the language need special assistance in navigating the complexities of these programs.

Or perhaps not. One of the thing that many localities do, for example, is sponsor and run job fairs to help local employers connect with local employees. I see nothing wrong with "civil rights leaders" asking for some of those job fairs to be scheduled downtown instead of in Upper Yuppie Heights....

What do you consider "Upper Yuppie Heights"

... which is why white folks lobby their lawmakers all the time, too. If a white person is concerned about rising crime in his neighborhood, he will ask for a police substation to be opened nearby. His lawmakers will take this into account when they set the police budget. Why should only whites be able to do this? I am sure only white folks do it, certainly no other race cares about crime in their neighborhood :rolleyes:

[drkitten]

What's interesting is that majority of the population who start their own business are immigrants.

Evidence?

Given how few immigrants there are, and how many business are started up each year, I would find this to be a very surprising factoid.

But the other thing, of course, is that "starting a business" is entirely different from starting a business on a substantial enough basis that you can use venture capital funding, as I described above.


For the most part they tend to have a language barrier to overcome as well, and they don't start of in a wealthy upscale suburb, so I am curious why they can figure out these programs so easily but people who are born in this country and speak the language need special assistance in navigating the complexities of these programs.

I'm curious as to why you feel that making a service available to everyone constitutes "special assistance."

If the services are useful, they should be useful to everyone. Putting them in a geographically isolated area that serves only a small fraction of the population would be unfair to those not in that area, regardless of their race.



I am sure only white folks do it, certainly no other race cares about crime in their neighborhood.

No, but according to GroundStrength, lawmakers should only take crime into consideration when the people who care are white. If other races are concerned, "why should lawmakers take this into consideration?" That's a direct quotation....

[GroundStrength]

No.

Well thats settled then. :p

For example, if I need startup capital to launch (or expand) a business, I'm not going to be able to "correct it for myself." I'm going to need someone else, someone with money, to give it to me, whether as a grant, a loan, an equity investment, whatever.

So how do I get that person to give it to me? Write to a venture capitalist and ask for a check? I don't know any venture capitalists. He's going to want to see a business plan. I don't know how to write one of those.

Yes, they will want to see a business plan. They want to make money. Therefore you should put forth the effort to learn how to write a business plan. Individual effort in action.


Now, as it happens, there's a "small business development" office at the local university that has exactly that information, and even has contacts, consultants, the whole nine yards, specifically to help people like me. In fact, there's even such a business development office run as part of the local government. These offices are there specifically to provide the sort of expertise that I don't have.

Sounds like a beautiful thing. If these were a result of the black civil rights movement I'd say mission accomplished. But we were talking about the unfinished work of the civil rights movement, this sounds like something that we could put in the finished column.

If they're not placed in an area that I can get to, then I won't use them.

That seems quite lazy and unmotivated to me. It sounds like you are saying, "Look I'm black, so you need to hand me everything that I'm going to need to be successful on a silver platter. I want to be successful but I don't want to put a lot of effort into this you know."

Most successful people that I know who are successful are so because they refuse to let anything stop them.(Especially a little distance)


Part of what the "civil rights leaders" can do is to agitate to make sure, on the one hand, that these programs are well-enough publicized so that the people without political connections, typically the people who need them the most, know about them. On the other hand, they can also help educate their constituent populations about these things. Similarly, they can point out that putting this office in the middle of a wealthy upscale suburban neighborhood makes it difficult for downtown blacks to get access to it -- and they can request that a branch office be opened or the entire office moved to better serve the community.

How would this be affected by illegal aliens rallying for their civil rights? This sounds like work within the black community.


Or perhaps not. One of the thing that many localities do, for example, is sponsor and run job fairs to help local employers connect with local employees. I see nothing wrong with "civil rights leaders" asking for some of those job fairs to be scheduled downtown instead of in Upper Yuppie Heights....

I see nothing wrong with this either, as long as it is asking and not mandating otherwise it is not equality but a special pleading.


... which is why white folks lobby their lawmakers all the time, too. If a white person is concerned about rising crime in his neighborhood, he will ask for a police substation to be opened nearby. His lawmakers will take this into account when they set the police budget. Why should only whites be able to do this?

Apples and oranges.

I am still confused about what has been left unfinished. Maybe it is forcing people to take advantage of all of the instruments that the black civil rights movement has created?

[Grammatron]

Evidence?

Given how few immigrants there are, and how many business are started up each year, I would find this to be a very surprising factoid.
http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html

No, but according to GroundStrength, lawmakers should only take crime into consideration when the people who care are white.

Can you quote where he said just that please? Thank you.

[drkitten]

Yes, they will want to see a business plan. They want to make money. Therefore you should put forth the effort to learn how to write a business plan.

I see. So it's acceptable for white folks to hire consultants to write business plans for them, but not for minorities.

It's acceptable to offer consultancy services at state expense to teach people to write business plans -- but only if the students are white.

It's acceptable to have government offices sufficiently far away from minority dominated areas to make sure that few minorities take advantage of them.

It's acceptable to plan the advertising of these government programs to make sure that no minority even hears about them.

Because if the black was really motivated, he's be sure to overcome the arbitrary hurdles that are not there for white folks.

There's a good example of how blacks have not yet achieved social equality. Thanks for playing.

[jj]

Yes, but aren't these things better left to the individual to correct for himself/herself?

So, the person from the third-rate school, with no prenatal medical care, is just SOL, then?

[drkitten]

http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html


This doesn't say anywhere that the majority of the population who start their own business are immigrants. It says, "Immigrants are significantly more likely to be self employed than natives." Which is an entirely different kettle of fish. 100% of my nieces have dark hair; but that's not at all the same thing as 100% of the people with dark hair are my neices.


Can you quote where he said just that please? Thank you.

Certainly. Post #4.

[Nex]

Where did you get this:
...So it's acceptable for white folks to hire consultants to write business plans for them, but not for minorities...
From this:
Therefore you should put forth the effort to learn how to write a business plan.
Are you saying blacks are unable to learn how to write business plans and must have consultants do it for them? Or are you saying blacks are unable to travel to a location which offers consultation? Or other?

I'm genuinely confused on what you're trying to say here. To be honest, from my point of view it looks like you're letting an emotional reaction take over your argument. Perhaps if you rephrased it wouldn't look like that.

[Grammatron]

This doesn't say anywhere that the majority of the population who start their own business are immigrants. It says, "Immigrants are significantly more likely to be self employed than natives." Which is an entirely different kettle of fish. 100% of my nieces have dark hair; but that's not at all the same thing as 100% of the people with dark hair are my neices.

If you say so.

Certainly. Post #4.
Contains no such quote, I think you are seeing something that is not there.

[Ziggurat]

Keep repeating that if you like. I still refuse to refer to human beings as "illegal." Cope.

How about "criminal immigrants" - would that be acceptable to you? I assume that you don't actually refuse to call anyone a criminal, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[drkitten]

Are you saying blacks are unable to learn how to write business plans and must have consultants do it for them?

I'm saying that it's easier to learn to write a business plan if you have someone to teach you.

Or are you saying blacks are unable to travel to a location which offers consultation?

I'm saying it's easier to do something if it doesn't involve inconvenient travel.


I'm genuinely confused on what you're trying to say here. To be honest, from my point of view it looks like you're letting an emotional reaction take over your argument. Perhaps if you rephrased it wouldn't look like that.

The current situation, legally, in the United States, is that blacks (specifically) and other minorities are technically afforded all the legal protections and opportunities afforded to anyone else.

However, as anyone who has seen an inner-city school can attest, this legal technicality is often violated in practice. Blacks are no longer denied opportunities, but instead are discouraged from taking advantage of many opportunities by apparently arbitrary hurdles that they have to overcome.

A recent example; I believe that the city of Pittsburgh has recently been suffering serious financial hardship and has been forced to cut back dramatically on various services, ranging from the relatively frivolous (public swimming pools) to the relatively important (police and fire protection). Let's take a hypothetical situation (since I don't want to have to google the appropriate citations) : in a city that is 50% black, where the neighborhoods are by historical accident strongly racially segregated, one would expect 50% of the city-funded swimming pools to be in black areas. If 50% of the pools need to be shut (I believe the actual figure was closer to 80%), one would expect 50% of the pools in black areas to be shut, as well as 50% of the pools in white areas. For the city council to shut all the the "black" pools, but none of the "white" ones may be technically legal -- but it still looks superficially like racial discrimination.

Similarly, if police stations need to be closed or consolidated, one would naively expect 50% of the affected stations to be in black areas, not 70% or more. If one is closing schools and imposing an unpopular bussing scheme, one would expect that 50% of the newly bussed children should be black.

Is it illegal to close (mostly) the schools where blacks are a majority, while keeping open the schools where whites are a majority? Probably not. But that's certainly a policy that disproportionally affects black schools, communities, families, and children in a negative way. And it's the sort of thing that the black civil rights leaders would justifiably protest -- it's essentially balancing the school budget on the backs of the black schoolchildren.

The same argument would apply to the offering of services. If the city got funding from a local foundation, for example, to provide free wi-fi service in selected neighborhoods, it would seem unfair and discriminatory to offer that service only (or primarily) in areas that are mostly white, especially if it's offered in lower-income white areas and not in higher-income black ones. Again, it's not illegal -- but it's the sort of thing that should not be socially acceptable.

You asked earlier if blacks are unable to travel. I ask why black should be forced to travel, when whites aren't? Do you see the difference?

[Ziggurat]

So, the person from the third-rate school, with no prenatal medical care, is just SOL, then?

When it comes to economic inequality, our biggest concern shouldn't be whether you're middle class vs. upper-middle class, or even middle class vs. upper class. The biggest problem is with genuine poverty, especially multi-generational poverty. I think you'll agree that this is the problem we should concern ourselves with the most, right?

But the thing about multi-generational poverty is, it's actually pretty easy to avoid. If you just do the following things:

1) graduate from highschool (doesn't matter if it's a bad school, just graduate)
2) don't get married before you're 20
3) don't have children before you're married
4) don't abuse drugs or alcohol

then you're almost guaranteed to get out of poverty. That's really about all it takes.

And government can only play a very limited role in getting people to do those things (it only plays a direct role in ONE of them). But if you screw up on one of those, you probably WON'T climb out of poverty, and your kids will grow up poor too, regardless of what government does for you.

So the best hope for eliminating the majority of deep poverty is changing people's behavior. And government is a crude, inefficient, and clumsy tool for trying to accomplish that.

[drkitten]

So the best hope for eliminating the majority of deep poverty is changing people's behavior. And government is a crude, inefficient, and clumsy tool for trying to accomplish that.

... which is why I suggested in my initial post that civil rights leaders are better off trying to use other instruments than simply government lobbying. I believe my exact words were "it's probably better to fix it through cultural change and education than through passing new laws."

But although the government is a crude tool, it's still a tool and should still be used appropriate. For example, the government sets local police policy, which in turn has a tremendous effect on the amount and availability of drugs and alcohol on the street. Similarly, local attitudes towards the police are something that the government has a certain amount of control over (Pittsburgh is again an unfortunately good example -- I believe they are among the cultural centers of the "Stop Snitching (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05291/590424.stm)" movement, in part due to a history of police prejudice and mishandling of informants, and in some cases outright brutality.) In this situation, it's appropriate -- indeed, imperative -- for the local "civil rights" leaders to be pushing the government to set appropriate police priorities and policies.

Similarly, the quality of the schools is something that's almost directly under the control of the government.

Even the "don't have children before you're married" is something that the government has a certain amount of influence, if not control, over. Employment, especially for women, has been demonstrated time and time again to have a negative impact on birthrate. Cutting the local unemployment rate will do wonders for social problems -- and local unemployment is definitely a governmental concern. Or should be, and if the local politicians don't realize it, then it's time to start peddling "influence" among them.

[jj]

When it comes to economic inequality, our biggest concern shouldn't be whether you're middle class vs. upper-middle class, or even middle class vs. upper class. The biggest problem is with genuine poverty, especially multi-generational poverty. I think you'll agree that this is the problem we should concern ourselves with the most, right?


While I'm not prone to religious words, allow me to say:

AMEN


But the thing about multi-generational poverty is, it's actually pretty easy to avoid. If you just do the following things:

1) graduate from highschool (doesn't matter if it's a bad school, just graduate)
2) don't get married before you're 20
3) don't have children before you're married
4) don't abuse drugs or alcohol

then you're almost guaranteed to get out of poverty. That's really about all it takes.


You have to add a bit more. Your list is necessary, but not sufficient:

5) Don't be born in the wrong part of appalachia, the rust belt, etc. Some places have zero economic opportunity, and it takes at least some cash and training beyond high school to move on in most cases. There are other places, I speak of the ones I'm familiar with.


And government can only play a very limited role in getting people to do those things (it only plays a direct role in ONE of them). But if you screw up on one of those, you probably WON'T climb out of poverty, and your kids will grow up poor too, regardless of what government does for you.


Education, education, and education.


So the best hope for eliminating the majority of deep poverty is changing people's behavior. And government is a crude, inefficient, and clumsy tool for trying to accomplish that.

Indeed. And when it behaves in its heavy-handed, inefficient, crude fashion by enforcing "abstinence-based" sex ed, favors "ID" over evolution, puts out standards that don't even pretend to know what goes on in inner-city or disadvantaged schools ...

[GroundStrength]

No, but according to GroundStrength, lawmakers should only take crime into consideration when the people who care are white. If other races are concerned, "why should lawmakers take this into consideration?" That's a direct quotation....

No that is a mis-quotation.

Here is how it really went down

Originally Posted by drkitten :
If low-skill unemployment is specifically a black problem, adding a lot of new low-skill immigrant workers will disproportionately impact the black population. Sounds like something that the political leadership should be aware of in crafting their policies, and therefore something that the various "civil rights" leaders to make sure they are aware of.

and I responded...

Response by GroundStrength :
Why should lawmakers take this into consideration? I thought that the main goal of the black civil rights movement was equality. This would be like one of my children convincing me to treat them as an adult, then asking for special treatment when something goes wrong.

Why so mad?


Originally Posted by drkitten :
I see. So it's acceptable for white folks to hire consultants to write business plans for them, but not for minorities.

Please show me where I said this. Just in case you can't here is what I really think about you statement...I think it is perfectly acceptable for everyone to hire consultants to help them write business plans. For those who can't afford to hire consultants (white or black) then they should learn to write business plans for themselves.

Originally Posted by drkitten :
It's acceptable to offer consultancy services at state expense to teach people to write business plans -- but only if the students are white.

Dude, are you even reading my posts or are you making things up as you go along?

I'd rather that either everyone or noone gets consultancy services at state expense to teach people to write business plans...but that's just me.

Originally Posted by drkitten :
It's acceptable to have government offices sufficiently far away from minority dominated areas to make sure that few minorities take advantage of them.

What is too far if you want to be successful? Heck, I'll drive over 100 miles for a good steak.

Originally Posted by drkitten :
It's acceptable to plan the advertising of these government programs to make sure that no minority even hears about them.

I think that this is our core disagreement. You think that government should force me to be successful and I think that I should force myself.

Originally Posted by drkitten :
Because if the black was really motivated, he's be sure to overcome the arbitrary hurdles that are not there for white folks.

Almost. Let me try and rephrase your overtly racist remark...

Because if the black was really motivated, he's be sure to overcome the any hurdles that are in his way.

You seem to have a very low opinion of black people. I think that they can be successfull on their own merits.

[GroundStrength]

So, the person from the third-rate school, with no prenatal medical care, is just SOL, then?


No, he just has to try a lot harder. If he doesn't want to try harder then yes, he is SOL.

[GroundStrength]

Originally Posted by drkitten
I'm saying it's easier to do something if it doesn't involve inconvenient travel.

I could be the greatest guitar player in the world, if it wasn't for all of those inconvenient chords, scales and voices.

I could be the greatest baseball slugger, if it wasn't for those inconvenient 99 mph fast-balls.

I could be the greatest boxing-champ of all time, if it wasn't for all of those inconvenient punches being thrown at my head.

and finally

I could win the JREF $1,000,000 Challenge if it weren't for all of those inconvenient laws of physics.

Hi! The real world called and said, "Life isn't fair or easy."

But it is all that much sweeter when you finally kick IT in the teeth.

[luchog]

Blacks have (mostly) achieved legal equality in the United States, but they've certainly not gotten the others. From the article: " In 2004, 72 percent of black male high school dropouts in their 20's were jobless, compared with 34 percent of white and 19 percent of Hispanic dropouts."
I'd like to see source and breakdown for those numbers; because I don't trust them.

What percentage of those dropouts are actively seeking employment, as opposed to those who are involved with gangs and/or the black market economy, sitting on welfare, etc. How many of them drop out to work in a family business or skilled-labour job (such as construction); as opposed to those who drop out because they're just not that interested in aquiring an education? How many of them are chronic drug users? How many of them went on to get GEDs or high-school equivalencies and furthered their education at public community colleges or vocational schools using resources such as financial aid programs and scholarships? I'd also like to see where Asian immigrants, particularly those from poorer regions like Vietnam, fall on this scale.

Also, you left out this particular part of the article:

"But nearly twice as many blacks as whites said that they or a family member had lost a job, or not gotten a job, because an employer hired an immigrant worker. Blacks were also more likely than whites to feel that immigrants take jobs away from American citizens."

Which makes me think that it's not quite as much a civil rights issue as it is a community values and personal responsibility issue.

I've been frequently accused of racism because of this assertion, but all of my reading and experience tells me that the black American community (yes, i realize this isn't monolithic, it's merely a useful generality) is the way it is because of its values -- it doesn't value education, it doesn't value personal responsibility, it glorifies violence, it's fatalist, and it's fragmentary. In short, it is mired in the cult of victimhood. Contrast that to recent African immigrant communities (as well as Asian and Hispanic communities) which are generally far more prosperous by comparison, who value family and cohesive communities, personal responsibility, and education; and which are not as prone to violence, and are more optimistic in outlook.

Of all the small businesses within walking distance of my apartment, the second-largest percentage of them are owned by Ethiopian immigrants. A short walk south of my apartment, nearly all the small businesses -- restaurants, convenience stores, small groceries,specialty food shops, etc. -- are Ethiopian-immigrant-owned.

A short walk south of that, where I work, the vast majority are owned by Vietnamese immigrants, which consist of all the aforementioned businesses plus travel agents, variety stores, medical offices, pet shops, auto repair, jewelry stores, toy and electronics stores, import shops, video-rental shops, even bank branches employing almost exclusively Asians. I would hazard a guess that there is not more than one or two small businesses in this entire district that is not owned by Vietnamese, Korean, or Chinese immigrants, first or second generation. And this is not an economically-depressed part of town, as it hosts some of the newest and biggest corporate offices in town; as well as a number of upscale speciality shops. There is only one black American owned business in the area that I'm aware of, a restaurant, in the middle of a district that is predominantly black.

My former insurance agent's office, in an upscale part of town, was completely Vietnamese owned and staffed; second-generation immigrants. I'd say that the second-largest percentage of small businesses, in the entire metropolitan area, are Vietnamese-owned. Interesting, since they're only the fourth- or fifth-largest immigrant population; and my city is the second-whitest among cities with populations over 500,000. Immigrant/minority-owned businesses in the entire state had 4 times the overall state business growth rate.

According to the Kauffman Index of Entrepreneurial Activity, black Americans have the lowest rate of business-starts in the nation, though that is increasing. Immigrants have higher rates across the board and by ethnicity.

[Nex]

I ask why black should be forced to travel, when whites aren't? Do you see the difference? I do, and you do have a good point -- minorities shouldn't have to travel long distances to get business consultation. But the assertion you've made was that state-funded consultation is found predominantly in white neighborhoods, and so minorities *must* travel. Drkitten, do you have evidence to back this up?

Here in Asheville, NC, we have state and county funded business consultants (http://www.abtech.edu/sbc/) in the Maple Building at Asheville-Buncombe Technical Community College (http://www.abtech.edu/). That is located in a predominantly black and Hispanic community, and also on the city bus line. I personally have taken the city buses there -- 75 cents one-way. So, in this city it's obviously not a problem.

What about your (the collective, all-of-you "your") towns?

[Cylinder]

But the thing about multi-generational poverty is, it's actually pretty easy to avoid. If you just do the following things:

1) graduate from highschool (doesn't matter if it's a bad school, just graduate)
2) don't get married before you're 20
3) don't have children before you're married
4) don't abuse drugs or alcohol

then you're almost guaranteed to get out of poverty. That's really about all it takes.

You missed a couple.

5) Research and find a marketable skill that suits your aptitutde.
6) Develop a career path.
7) Accept the fact that most people start at the bottom.
8) Work hard.

[jj]

No, he just has to try a lot harder. If he doesn't want to try harder then yes, he is SOL.

Even though you've just stipulated, by accepting my conditions of education and health, that s/he can not possibly "try harder", because s/he hasn't the tools.

Oh, how generous. I'm so thankful for your help.

[jj]

You missed a couple.

5) Research and find a marketable skill that suits your aptitutde.
6) Develop a career path.
7) Accept the fact that most people start at the bottom.
8) Work hard.


All good.

The need for a place to actually work, however, is still not in that list. Some places in this country it doesn't exist.

What do you do then? Sometimes 'leave' is not so easy, economically, you know.

[Rob Lister]

All good.

The need for a place to actually work, however, is still not in that list. Some places in this country it doesn't exist.

What do you do then? Sometimes 'leave' is not so easy, economically, you know.

that's not a black issue, is it?

If so, why so?

[Cylinder]

All good.

The need for a place to actually work, however, is still not in that list. Some places in this country it doesn't exist.

What do you do then? Sometimes 'leave' is not so easy, economically, you know.

You find a marketable skill. If there are no jobs in your area, then you live in a ghost town. Granted, they exist - but are very rare.

[jj]

that's not a black issue, is it?

If so, why so?


Didn't say it's a black issue.

[jj]

You find a marketable skill. If there are no jobs in your area, then you live in a ghost town. Granted, they exist - but are very rare.

You've no clue at all about parts of the country, then.

Go to Youngstown, Oh, or Morgantown, WV or some place like Elkins or Franklin WV, or some places down in, oh, say, Giles Co, Va.

Let's take Youngstown (please!).

In 1970 census it was something like 180000 people, made the newspaper, etc.

In 2000 census it was something like 79000 people. Still, massive unemployment.

Entire housing developments to the bank/town. Nobody to buy the land, nobody needs or wants it. Zero demand for housing, since the population is crashing like a meteor. Very few new businesses, except on the I80 corridor for services.

The option for somebody there is to move, at least, to Cleveland, Akron (not a lot better, but better) or Pittsburg. IF you can afford it. But you have to be able to afford it, and therein lies the problem.

[Rob Lister]

That's not a black problem. Look at the thread, JJ

[jj]

That's not a black problem. Look at the thread, JJ

It's a class problem. Blacks are still in many places the lowest class.

Have a nice day.

[Rob Lister]

Actually, it's evening here.

It isn't a civil-rights issue, unless you have a point that makes it a civil rights issue.

Your assertion that blacks are a lower class is probably poor wording by you.

My assertion, and this thread, seems to be that equality under the law is the best the law should do.

To go further would be...inequality.

If there is something in the 'american black culture' that keeps them poor, lets discuss it here.

The only thing I can think of is that the civil rights movement has ceased looking for equality (because they found it) and instead focusing on excuses for not succeeding.

[Cylinder]

You've no clue at all about parts of the country, then.

I live in rural Arkansas just a stone's throw from the delta. There are many towns where your choices are farmer or farm worker. Period. Unless you have land, you have to leave those towns to prosper.

Speaking frankly, I grew up below the poverty level. We had food, adequate shelter and clothing (notice the omission of the adjective new.) Every complaint I brought to my parents were met with some advice - education, planning and hard work and all 7 of us have met with a decent measure of success.

There are pockets of poverty. There's also a ticket out of poverty. The problem is that no matter how much money we spend as a country, you cannot make someone succed until they take responsibility for their success. I'll pay for as many Pell grants as the government cares to write - black, white, purple or green. What you do with that grant money is your own responsibility.

[Rob Lister]

Nicely said

[drkitten]

I do, and you do have a good point -- minorities shouldn't have to travel long distances to get business consultation. But the assertion you've made was that state-funded consultation is found predominantly in white neighborhoods, and so minorities *must* travel. Drkitten, do you have evidence to back this up?

Certainly, although I'm not going to bother to dig up citations.

You've actually shown a big piece of the puzzle yourself:


Here in Asheville, NC, we have state and county funded business consultants (http://www.abtech.edu/sbc/) in the Maple Building at Asheville-Buncombe Technical Community College (http://www.abtech.edu/). That is located in a predominantly black and Hispanic community, and also on the city bus line. I personally have taken the city buses there -- 75 cents one-way. So, in this city it's obviously not a problem.


Colleges are a big source of this source of business consultation (here's an example from Florida (http://www.sbdc.uwf.edu/index.htm) of "a non-profit network of college and university-based centers providing entrepreneurs with high quality one-on-one consulting, management training, and vital information they need to grow and prosper in a complex and competitive global environment.."

But they're mostly on college and university campuses. There's a good, practical reason for this. They're run by business professors and students, there's usually office space available fairly cheaply on the campus itself, and it makes it more convenient for the (part-time) staff who man the things. It's relatively less common to have them on community college campuses, and even less common to put them in the middle of the urban jungle (or out in the boondocks).

Convenient for the staff, but not for the clients who don't live/work in the university area. University areas tend to be somewhat upscale, housing prices are expensive, and parking is often oversubscribed to the point of nonexistence, et cetera.

I submit that it's perfectly reasonable for a black community leader to go to one of these programs and say "hey, we think this is a very nice idea, and we think that you should open a branch office downtown in the Combat Zone." I think it's perfectly reasonable for that same leader to go to the city council -- or the state department of thus-and-such -- and ask for some money to support the costs of opening a branch office.

[GroundStrength]

Even though you've just stipulated, by accepting my conditions of education and health, that s/he can not possibly "try harder", because s/he hasn't the tools.

Oh, how generous. I'm so thankful for your help.


I do not accept can not try harder.

[GroundStrength]

snip...
My assertion, and this thread, seems to be that equality under the law is the best the law should do.

To go further would be...inequality.

snip...

The only thing I can think of is that the civil rights movement has ceased looking for equality (because they found it) and instead focusing on excuses for not succeeding.

Careful Rob you are making too much sense.;)

[drkitten]

I do not accept can not try harder.

Why should minorities be required to "try harder" than whites?

[Cylinder]

Why should minorities be required to "try harder" than whites?

The formula isn't minoriites have to try harder than whites.

The formula is each individual has to try harder than the obstacles to their success.

I spent a couple of years of my life waiting for the Success Fairy as well. She did not show.

[GroundStrength]

The formula isn't minoriites have to try harder than whites.

The formula is each individual has to try harder than the obstacles to their success.

I spent a couple of years of my life waiting for the Success Fairy as well. She did not show.


Yeah, what he said.

[GroundStrength]

drkitten,

IMVWO the black civil rights movement was a necessary and good thing. Getting everyone to a equal legal playing field makes this country stronger. Unfortunately for black people in this country social and economic equality seem to be a little harder to come by. Fortunately the problem is not insurmountable, but it will not be solved by legislation. The quickest way for change to happen is to come from within.

You may feel that Whitey/government owes you something, but you must realize by now that he's probably not going to give it to you. So, you can sit around and be angry that he doesn't or fight like hell to acheive it without him. When you do, show others how you did it. Let it become infectious.

It may take an entire generation of fine young black men to stand up and say "No More". No more gangsta' rap, no more gang-violence, no more ebonic-speak, no more baby-daddy, no more of anything that keeps the black community from acheiving anything and everything they have ever dreamed of.

But, it won't be easy. It won't be popular (at first). Jesse Jackson and the rest of the poverty-pimps will attempt to hold you back. But, it will be worth it. Stand up and say "F-Whitey, we don't need you to be successful!".

What a great day that would be... :)

[jj]

Actually, it's evening here.

It isn't a civil-rights issue, unless you have a point that makes it a civil rights issue.

Your assertion that blacks are a lower class is probably poor wording by you.

Please examine the wording I used. It's not judgemental. It's historical.

And the point is simple, really, economic class self-perpetuates without some heroic effort from the people in the class.

You may now look up "learned helplessness" on your own time. I can see this conversation is going down the tubes.

[jj]

The only thing I can think of is that the civil rights movement has ceased looking for equality (because they found it) and instead focusing on excuses for not succeeding.

Or perhaps they found the legal part of it, but they're still casting about for how to deal with the psychological and economic parts. It's not a simple problem.

[jj]

It may take an entire generation of fine young black men to stand up and say "No More". No more gangsta' rap, no more gang-violence, no more ebonic-speak, no more baby-daddy, no more of anything that keeps the black community from acheiving anything and everything they have ever dreamed of.


How about for starters more individuals who do that? Some examples to point the community at, for starters, that aren't Jackson and the minister-squad. Oh, and Don King, whatever he is (besides a boxing promoter).

[Earthborn]

1) graduate from highschool (doesn't matter if it's a bad school, just graduate)
2) don't get married before you're 20
3) don't have children before you're married
4) don't abuse drugs or alcohol

5) Research and find a marketable skill that suits your aptitutde.
6) Develop a career path.
7) Accept the fact that most people start at the bottom.
8) Work hard.Here's one that precedes them all:
0. Avoid medical problems, including mental illness. If you can avoid becoming depressed in a very depressing environment, you have a good chance of achieving all the others.

No more gangsta' rapAre you claiming that gangsta rap prevents black people from achieving a higher economic status? I'd say the opposite is more likely true. Can you name a single gangsta rapper who is poor?

no more ebonic-speakIs there a requirement for white people to give up their local dialects?

Stand up and say "F-Whitey, we don't need you to be successful!".Ironically, it will mean that they need to say at the same time: "Whitey, we need to do exactly what you tell us to do to be successful when you tell us we need to take matters into our own hands." :)

[GroundStrength]

How about for starters more individuals who do that? Some examples to point the community at, for starters, that aren't Jackson and the minister-squad. Oh, and Don King, whatever he is (besides a boxing promoter).


Wouldn't hurt. BTW I'm positive that there are untold numbers of these they just aren't looked up to like $.50 and others.

[drkitten]

each individual has to try harder than the obstacles to their success[/i].

So why should each individual who happens to be black have harder obstacles (than each individual who happens to be white) to try harder than?

[GroundStrength]

Origianlly posted by Earthborn
Are you claiming that gangsta rap prevents black people from achieving a higher economic status? I'd say the opposite is more likely true. Can you name a single gangsta rapper who is poor?

So what, so does does dealing dope. But are dope dealers to be emulated? Come on Earthborn you can do better than that, your posts are usually very well thought out.

Origianlly posted by Earthborn
Is there a requirement for white people to give up their local dialects?

If you want to be successful, yes. It helps a great deal to be able to be understood. Especially where I work. I will be in a meeting with at least seven people of different nationality. If we don't all speak the same language then we can't communicate. I am sorry to inform you but businesss here in the states is done in English.

I am a redneck and my family is from east Texas. Very strong local dialect. However, it is not acceptable for me to speak that way when it comes to my professional life. It would make people think I'm stupid and hinder my progress. So guess what, I don't speak that way. Imagine that.

Origianlly posted by Earthborn
Ironically, it will mean that they need to say at the same time: "Whitey, we need to do exactly what you tell us to do to be successful when you tell us we need to take matters into our own hands."

That's just intellectually dishonest. If you want to be successful you must do whatever it takes to become so. You understood that though didn't you. You knew that I meant that waiting for someone else to make me successful is just not going to happen. Pity, I've seen you much better than this.

[GroundStrength]

So why should each individual who happens to be black have harder obstacles (than each individual who happens to be white) to try harder than?

Perhaps because 'It is what it is.'

Being successful means not worrying about anyone else's path or problems only your own.

[drkitten]

You may feel that Whitey/government owes you something,

You may also feel that putting words in my mouth is a good idea -- but it's not.

Nor is presenting straw-men a good idea.

"Legal" equality is indeed a good thing. But without corresponding social and economic equality, there's still a lot more ground that needs to be done. And despite your platitudes and dismissing of black culture, there's a lot of stuff that Whitey will need to do to achieve it, and that Whitey will, if necessary, be made to do.



It may take an entire generation of fine young black men to stand up and say "No More". No more gangsta' rap, [no more gang-violence, no more ebonic-speak, no more baby-daddy, no more of anything that keeps the black community from acheiving anything and everything they have ever dreamed of.

But, it won't be easy.

Yes. It will take things like investment money, given from everyone, inlcuding from the largely white-controlled foundations, corporations, and governments. It will take education, which means that qualified teachers will have to be found for black areas as well as white areas. It will take employment opportunities for black people as well as white, which in turn means job creation for blacks as well as white.

Jesse Jackson and the rest of the poverty-pimps will attempt to hold you back.

Not nearly as much as racists like you that think that the government should only respond to the concerns of white citizens, or who think that putting a business development office somewhere where black citizens can do walk-in business is somehow "poverty-pimping."

[drkitten]

Perhaps because 'It is what it is.'

Which, in a nutshell, is why the civil rights movement is unfinished.

Because "what it is" is not "what it should be."

Every time you tell someone "I'm sorry, that's your problem, work it out yourself," someone else with a clue will identify a teaching opportunity. Instead of telling someone to work it out, show them how the solution works. At this point, the world has changed -- and the barrier that you insisted was impenetrable no longer exists. The world is no longer what it was, and closer to what it should be.

[jj]

Well, I guess I'm not surprised at what I see here, which is at its heart another failure to understand how pulling other people up increases everyone's welfare.

The closed-minded "I got mine, screw you" attitude I see here reminds me of what I've observed in other failing societies. This is a statement of perception on my part, so you can spare me the arguments. It's what I percieve.

It's interesting that the only person besides myself who has mentioned education is Dr. Kitten. Do the other folks in this thread propose that a smart kid, really smart kid, who is not ever made able (i.e. via teachers, parents, whatever) to read and write, can somehow pull themselves out of the ghetto?

Apparently they do hold others responsible for a bad childhood education. It's the only conclusion that one can reach when indifference of the sort represented by Yes, but aren't these things better left to the individual to correct for himself/herself?

It is not a child's fault that they are taught contempt for education. It is not a child's fault that they are not taught to read and write, do mathematics, understand science. It is the society's fault.

You can well say that the society is to blame. How do you fix the society? You educate it. Chicken, meet egg.

But it's not the fault of the kid who was just born there.

[Grammatron]

You may also feel that putting words in my mouth is a good idea -- but it's not.

I see you are no stranger to irony.

[Grammatron]

Which, in a nutshell, is why the civil rights movement is unfinished.

Because "what it is" is not "what it should be."

Every time you tell someone "I'm sorry, that's your problem, work it out yourself," someone else with a clue will identify a teaching opportunity. Instead of telling someone to work it out, show them how the solution works. At this point, the world has changed -- and the barrier that you insisted was impenetrable no longer exists. The world is no longer what it was, and closer to what it should be.

Those programs already exist at federal, state, county and local level(s). All an individual has to do is to seek them out. Is that really such a complicated task to figure out where those programs are and how to take advantage of them?

And if it is so complex, how do you propose to make it simpler?

[GroundStrength]

Every time you tell someone "I'm sorry, that's your problem, work it out yourself," someone else with a clue will identify a teaching opportunity. Instead of telling someone to work it out, show them how the solution works.

I fail to see how this is a civil rights issue. To me it is in a nutshell...life.

I don't know how to say anymore clearly that each indivual hold his/her own success in his/her own hands. You must have the desire to see it through no matter what or who stands in your way. I am successful because I choose to be, not because I am white. I am successful because I won't have it any other way.

On the other hand my oldest daughter is a failure because she chooses to be. She chooses to smoke dope...she chooses to hang out with the dregs of society...she chooses not to finish high school...she chooses to immerse herself in the gangsta' rap culture...she chooses failure.

The only obsticle anyone has is themself.

Sincerely,

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by jj
It's interesting that the only person besides myself who has mentioned education is Dr. Kitten. Do the other folks in this thread propose that a smart kid, really smart kid, who is not ever made able (i.e. via teachers, parents, whatever) to read and write, can somehow pull themselves out of the ghetto?

If the kid is smart then yes. If they are smart then they will seek out those who will help.

Originally posted by jj
Apparently they do hold others responsible for a bad childhood education. It's the only conclusion that one can reach when indifference of the sort represented by

Originally posted by GroundStrength
Yes, but aren't these things better left to the individual to correct for himself/herself?

To me jj it is all about personal responsibility. Does one have the drive to succeed? If so they will not accept, not knowing how to read, rite and rithmatic...no matter what color their skin or the address on the door.

Originally posted by jj
It is not a child's fault that they are taught contempt for education. It is not a child's fault that they are not taught to read and write, do mathematics, understand science. It is the society's fault.

It is not the child's fault but ultimately it is their responsibility.

[drkitten]

Those programs already exist at federal, state, county and local level(s). All an individual has to do is to seek them out.

Um,.... yes.

Is that really such a complicated task to figure out where those programs are and how to take advantage of them?

Um, yes.

Every time a single person throws up his hands in disgust at how difficult it is to access these programs, that's a loss to society.

And every time a single person does that needlessly, that's a problem.


And if it is so complex, how do you propose to make it simpler?

All sorts of ways. Ways that the black community is much more familiar with, because they deal this these hassles on a regular basis.

Consider the following non-hypothetical part of town that is in rather serious economic trouble. Mostly black, high crime, boarded up storefronts -- I'm sure you know the drill. One of the few successful businesses in that area is child-care. Specifically, "day care," but day-care available 24/7, because most of the residents who have jobs (and children) have to hold down multiple jobs to make ends meet. This area isn't badly served by public transit, but it's still an hour's trip into and out of downtown with the necessary transfers -- and add another half-hour to an hour to that if you need to get out into the (mostly white) suburbia.

Now, the local Mayor actually has a pretty good job-creation program going. He doesn't have a lot of money available, but he's got a lot of staff that work on putting resources next to people. For example, if you need office space, he has people with lists of commercial property renters that will do much of the legwork for you. If you need to get startup capital, he can link you up with local foundations. If you are having problems with licencing and stuff, he's got an ombudsman to help you through the steps.

But what he doesn't have is any hours outside of 9-5 weekdays. Or an office outside of downtown. Which means that if you want to avail yourself of his services, you have to take a morning or afternoon off (probably without pay) in order to get down there and back. And if it's something compllcated, you may need to do that a lot.

For myself, I work one neighborhood from downtown. And I'm wealthy enough to afford a car (and parking). So I have no problem slipping down over my lunch break, popping in for ten minutes, and getting back before the boss knows I'm gone. It sure sounds like I have better access to the Mayor and all his services, doesn't it?

The Mayor also sponsors periodic job fairs. He rents out huge halls, and local companies come and set up booths, often doing interviews on the spot. And all the job fairs are in wealthy parts of the suburbs, two hours by bus away from the black people who need the jobs (.... but oddly convenient to the suburban teenagers looking for temporary work.)

What would I do to make it more convenient? Well, for a start, I'd ask the mayor if it would be possible to set up an evening/weekend clinic to handle the things that his office already does on a routine basis. I'd see if a lot of this couldn't be handled via a branch office that's more convenient, or even via phone/Web/email. I'd ask him to see if it's possible to hold some of the job fairs in the depressed areas where the people who need jobs don't need to spend an hour on the bus to get to. And that's just for a start.

Of course, the actual local "civil rights leaders" are in an even better position. They can not only ask for local job fairs, but they can even suggest specific locations (perhaps even arrange something through a local church hall). They can target specific community issues -- one lower-class community within sight of my office window doesn't even have a food store in it, in part because the zoning board thirty years ago deliberately messed up commercial development in that area. There's a large city "redevelopment agency" that has been buying up parcels of land, consolidating them, and then selling them to developers to enhance various neighborhood economies. This agency has, to the best of my knowledge, not spent a dime in this particular area or on this project. Persuading the city to help create a grocery store here would probably do more for the local quality of life than putting another strip mall out in the suburbs, something that the agency is only too happy to do.

[GroundStrength]

Orginally posted by drkitten
You may also feel that putting words in my mouth is a good idea -- but it's not.

I meant you as in understood.

Orginally posted by drkitten
"Legal" equality is indeed a good thing. But without corresponding social and economic equality, there's still a lot more ground that needs to be done. And despite your platitudes and dismissing of black culture, there's a lot of stuff that Whitey will need to do to achieve it, and that Whitey will, if necessary, be made to do.

I guess I just have more faith in the black community than you do. They will do it for themselves and on their own.

But I do so enjoy the militant tone of your post...

Orginally posted by drkitten
Yes. It will take things like investment money, given from everyone, inlcuding from the largely white-controlled foundations, corporations, and governments. It will take education, which means that qualified teachers will have to be found for black areas as well as white areas. It will take employment opportunities for black people as well as white, which in turn means job creation for blacks as well as white.

I'd like to reword if I may...
Yes. It will take things like investment money, earned by some, from foundations, corporations and governments. It will take education, which means that qualified teachers must be found and rewarded. It will take employment opportunities and job creation to make it happen. And it will take a whole lotta work on the part of people who want to be successful in order to get there.

Orginally posted by drkitten
Not nearly as much as racists like you that think that the government should only respond to the concerns of white citizens, or who think that putting a business development office somewhere where black citizens can do walk-in business is somehow "poverty-pimping."

Dude, chill. Your cup runneth over with vitriol. I will ignore you calling me a racist for now, and send you a big hug.
[BIG HUG]drkitten[/BIG HUG]

[drkitten]

I don't know how to say anymore clearly that each indivual hold his/her own success in his/her own hands.

You don't have to say it more clearly.

It's simply wrong, and it doesn't get any more correct the more times you say it.

You must have the desire to see it through no matter what or who stands in your way.

Millions of people are successful without that desire.

Millions of other people are unsuccessful with that desire. Do you think that simply "having the desire to see it through" will make you an Olympic medalist? It also takes talent, and opportunity. If you have to work ten hours a day to feed yourself, you physically won't have time to train, no matter how good you are. If you can't afford to go to college, you won't be able to get a degree.

Sometimes, the people or things that stand in one's way are simply too great for mere desire to overcome, no matter how many self-congratulatory Horatio Alger lies you tell them.

Sometimes those obstacles are legitimate. I'll never be a professional basketball player -- I'm too short. I'll never be a military fighter pilot -- I'm past the age of enlistment, and my vision is too poor.

Sometimes, however, they're not. I could, perhaps, be a master of Chen-style T'ai Chi. I don't have any physical limitations. The only limitation I have is that I don't know of a teacher of Chen-style T'ai Chi within a thousand kilometer radius of where I live, and I'm unwilling to commute ten hours each way, or to move. I guess that means my "desire" isn't great enough. But at the same time, people who do, by accident of geography, live in other places have the opportunity to study without moving or commuting. And many of them have no more "desire" than I do -- but they have the opportunity, and they will achieve success where I will not.

[Grammatron]

and add another half-hour to an hour to that if you need to get out into the (mostly white) suburbia.
Emphasis mine:
Why does it matter so much?

[drkitten]

And it will take a whole lotta work on the part of people who want to be successful in order to get there.

Yes. Especially since you seem to forbid people who are already successful from helping those to want it.

[Earthborn]

So what, so does does dealing dope. But are dope dealers to be emulated?I'd say no. But that isn't what yopu were talking about. You were talking about what stops black people from being successful. And quite a few blacks have found out that they can be successful by changing into a horrible stereotype of their own people and selling gobs of records to a predominantly rich white audience.

Whether this is a good or bad thing is entirely irrelevant to your claim.

If you want to be successful, yes. It helps a great deal to be able to be understood.Of course. It is obvious that people need to use a more common language in a professional setting. Aren't black people doing that already? I bet they're taught American English in schools, just like all the other kids who speak dialect at home.

Your "no more ebonics" statement however sounds much more absolutist: that people should not use ebonics anywhere under any circumstance.

You understood that though didn't you.Of course. But surely you can see that there is some irony when majority groups tell minority groups what to do and they tell them to rebel against them. If the minority were to rebel against them and not do what they are told, they are told that they don't do what is needed to be successful. But if they do what they are told, they can't actually rebel. What is one to do when one is given the order: "Be disobedient!" ?

[Abbyas]

Of course. It is obvious that people need to use a more common language in a professional setting. Aren't black people doing that already? I bet they're taught American English in schools, just like all the other kids who speak dialect at home.

I agree 100%. It can be annoying when I go to a local bodega and the recent immigrant doesn't understand that I need tampons, but I don't have a constitutional right to a cashier that speaks perfect english. I'll just go somewhere else. If he needs my business, he'll learn. But most likely, he doesn't need it.

Bottom line, black people get lower SAT scores than white people. We all agree that it's not because they are dumber. The book Freakonomics has a fascinating chapter featuring white and black high schools and notes that all other things being equal (including income) black students in black highschools will perform worse on standardized tests than whites in whites schools or blacks in white schools. This is a problem of obviously racial issues that must be addressed.

[jj]

If the kid is smart then yes. If they are smart then they will seek out those who will help.


Uh, sorry, but you presume this is possible. I think you'll have to show some good, solid evidence that such "help" is available, accessable AND PERMISSIBLE to a poor black kid in what we used to call a ghetto.


To me jj it is all about personal responsibility. Does one have the drive to succeed? If so they will not accept, not knowing how to read, rite and rithmatic...no matter what color their skin or the address on the door.


The "drive to succeed" is nothing if the person can not acquire the tools to succeed. They may not have the choice to accept "not learning". There are many good examples of this in the USA, and the examples in third-world countries pretty much includes most of many countries.

As it happens, I'm a fat old white boy, and I, personally, have had people in the past (long past) try to withhold the necessary learning from me. If I, speaking as a white person, have this experience, I really, seriously doubt that a black person has a BETTER experience. I had to step on people. Hard. Eventually I just had to move out completely. You know what? Both of my parents were educated, mom was a schoolteacher and a lab chemist assistant, and dad was an old-time boiler engineer (from the days when Stevens' tables were essential along with the slide rule). (Is it "stevens" I dare say I've forgotten, although I have the very antique book on my shelf?) They pushed me to step on people if I had to, in order to learn. Good thing in my book, but the average ghetto kid doesn't get that support.

Ok, take the version of me with the same capability and put it in a family that holds knowledge in contempt. Sorry, the problem is not with the individual, and you can't hold the individual solely responsible. Make them black, in a 4th rate school system in a ghetto, and there is nothing that they can do to cure the problem. Literally nothing. An 8yr old can't move away from home.

You CAN ask the individual to make effort, but the effort has to have some results both inside and OUTSIDE the individual.


It is not the child's fault but ultimately it is their responsibility.

It's their problem. It is only partially their responsibility.

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by drkitten
You don't have to say it more clearly.

It's simply wrong, and it doesn't get any more correct the more times you say it.

Well then we agree to disagree.


Originally posted by drkitten
Millions of people are successful without that desire.

No they're not.

Originally posted by drkitten
Millions of other people are unsuccessful with that desire.

I like to think of it as being unsuccessful so far.


Originally posted by drkitten
Do you think that simply "having the desire to see it through" will make you an Olympic medalist? It also takes talent, and opportunity. If you have to work ten hours a day to feed yourself, you physically won't have time to train, no matter how good you are. If you can't afford to go to college, you won't be able to get a degree.

I didn't go to college and I am very successful. I make just under six figures. My wife did not graduate from H.S. and she makes more than I do. How then did we do it? Skin color?

Originally posted by drkitten
Sometimes, the people or things that stand in one's way are simply too great for mere desire to overcome, no matter how many self-congratulatory Horatio Alger lies you tell them.

In rare circumstances, perhaps. Some people will just continue to eat the elephant one bite at a time until they have finished it.

Originally posted by drkitten
Sometimes, however, they're not. I could, perhaps, be a master of Chen-style T'ai Chi. I don't have any physical limitations. The only limitation I have is that I don't know of a teacher of Chen-style T'ai Chi within a thousand kilometer radius of where I live, and I'm unwilling to commute ten hours each way, or to move.

I used to travel 4 hours one way once/week to study. Its all about desire to make the oppertunity.

If you are serious about studying chen where do you live? I study xingyiquan and have very good IMA contacts all over. Maybe I can help you find a teacher close by. :)

[Earthborn]

You must have the desire to see it through no matter what or who stands in your way.What is this 'desire' you speak of? How does one acquire it? Can one lose it? Do all groups of population necessarily have the same amount of it? Do people living in depressing environments have the same amount of it? Do people have it in the same amount if they know that some of the people they will have to walk over because they stand in their way have it much worse then themselves?

On the other hand my oldest daughter is a failure because she chooses to be. She chooses to smoke dope...she chooses to hang out with the dregs of society...she chooses not to finish high school...she chooses to immerse herself in the gangsta' rap culture...she chooses failure.Sounds to me like you use "choice" as a rationalisation for blaming the victim.

[GroundStrength]

Orignially posted by Earthborn
What is this 'desire' you speak of? How does one acquire it? Can one lose it? Do all groups of population necessarily have the same amount of it? Do people living in depressing environments have the same amount of it? Do people have it in the same amount if they know that some of the people they will have to walk over because they stand in their way have it much worse then themselves?

If you(understood) don't know what it is then you(understood) are doomed to fail or worse never try.


Orignially posted by GroundStrength
On the other hand my oldest daughter is a failure because she chooses to be. She chooses to smoke dope...she chooses to hang out with the dregs of society...she chooses not to finish high school...she chooses to immerse herself in the gangsta' rap culture...she chooses failure.

Orignially posted by Earthborn
Sounds to me like you use "choice" as a rationalisation for blaming the victim.

Which victim? My daughter? She's not a victim. She has had every oppertunity and none of the obstacles that others on this thread have mentioned. She chooses to do these things and be a failure, even when offered help from myself and others. IF she makes different choices in the future she can rectify the situation, but neither daddy nor society can do it for her.

[jj]

If you(understood) don't know what it is then you(understood) are doomed to fail or worse never try.

Ergo, if you're never taught ...

So you admit, by your own words, that people who aren't educated into giving two (*&(*'s are victims. I'm not sure you intended that.

[GroundStrength]

Ergo, if you're never taught ...

So you admit, by your own words, that people who aren't educated into giving two (*&(*'s are victims. I'm not sure you intended that.

You really expect me to believe that there are those out there (west virginia notwithstanding :duck: ) who don't know what the desire to succeed is? Surely you jest.

Its the same as the desire to survive.

There may be those who are depressed, but they can choose to better themselves and their life or wallow in the depression and continue in their current situation.

Everyone knows what the drive to be successful is, not everyone uses it.

Heck, even dope dealers from the ghetto have the drive it is just directed in a illegal direction.

If you don't use it then you are doomed, and perhaps rightly so...natural selection and all.

So let the cries of 'racist' flow deftly from your tongues and let all of the whiney-cry-babies who choose to continue to fail do so...be they of any color.

[Earthborn]

If you(understood) don't know what it is then you(understood) are doomed to fail or worse never try.Please do not speak in riddles. Answer the questions or say that you won't.

Which victim? My daughter? She's not a victim.Sounds to me like she may have some emotional issues, but apperently you prefer to put the blame purely on herself. I'd say that is blaming the victim.

She has had every oppertunity and none of the obstacles that others on this thread have mentioned.Irrelevant. Just because you claim she had every opportunity and just because she did not have an obstacle that was mentioned in this thread does not prove that she did not encounter any obstacles and neither does it prove that there are no reasons for her behaviour that are out of her control.

[jj]

You really expect me to believe that there are those out there (west virginia notwithstanding :duck: ) who don't know what the desire to succeed is? Surely you jest.


No, I don't jest.


Its the same as the desire to survive.


It is often directly opposed to short-term survival. And, if you die today, tomorrow doesn't much matter, does it?


There may be those who are depressed, but they can choose to better themselves and their life or wallow in the depression and continue in their current situation.


You suggest that clinical depression is a choice, then?


Everyone knows what the drive to be successful is, not everyone uses it.


Please provide some evidence as to the first half of the sentence, as it subsumes a claim.


Heck, even dope dealers from the ghetto have the drive it is just directed in a illegal direction.


Indeed. How do they learn to be that way? Do you insist that criminal behavior is genetic and predetermined? If not, you need to account for learning. If you do, you need some major evidence.


If you don't use it then you are doomed, and perhaps rightly so...natural selection and all.


You've not shown that "it" is intrinsic, rather than learned. Furthermore, you haven't shown that "it" is possible in the relevant environments. Finally, you dismiss everyone born in the wrong place for the sins of their fathers. Do you think this is a constructive attitude in the long term? Why?


So let the cries of 'racist' flow deftly from your tongues and let all of the whiney-cry-babies who choose to continue to fail do so...be they of any color.

I guess you can't leave out some kind of straw man or ad-hominem.

What's more, you still haven't addressed the basic issue that you conceeded two posts up in this sub-thread.

[Earthborn]

Its the same as the desire to survive.So it is your claim that someone who does not desire to succeed desires to die?

There may be those who are depressed, but they can choose to better themselves and their life or wallow in the depression and continue in their current situation.People suffering from clinical depression are -- by the definition of clinical depression -- unable to make that choice. People cannot choose to 'snap out' of mental illness.

Everyone knows what the drive to be successful isIf everyone knows it, then you should be able to explain it. If you cannot explain it, you don't know what it is.

not everyone uses it.So it is your claim that everyone has it to the same degree?

[GroundStrength]

It seems that we are at an impasse.

I believe, live my life and teach my children that the individual is responsible for his/her own success or failure.
You seem to choose to do otherwise.

My oldest has this same attitude, 'Its not my fault.' It is when they make a continued effort to make choices that lead to failure. If I stopped going to work, paying the bills and turned to drugs. Who's fault would that be???

Even if life pressures became so great that I couldn't bear it it would still be my fault for not getting back up when knocked down.

Admittedly your way is easier, blaming others for my failures would be great...it just wouldn't be the truth.

The End.

[GroundStrength]

So it is your claim that someone who does not desire to succeed desires to die?

In a way yes. Unless they are comfortable with their situation, then they have succeeded in their minds.



People suffering from clinical depression are -- by the definition of clinical depression -- unable to make that choice. People cannot choose to 'snap out' of mental illness.

So you say.



If everyone knows it, then you should be able to explain it. If you cannot explain it, you don't know what it is.

It is not being satisfied with your current situation and wanting to do something to change it.


So it is your claim that everyone has it to the same degree?

Yes, there are just varying levels of usage.

[jj]

It seems that we are at an impasse.


Indeed, you are not responding to my position, or as far as I can tell to Earthborn's.


I believe, live my life and teach my children that the individual is responsible for his/her own success or failure.
You seem to choose to do otherwise.


Each individual is responsible. - Yes.

However, you argue beyond that, you argue that each individual is responsible, despite education, background, health, ability, you-name-it. You take no responsibility, and assign no responsibility to society, for the education, health, and the outlook that is presented to an individual.

You argue, it seems, that each individual is responsible for many things outside their ability to control as well as those that the individual can control. Reading would be a good example. If the brightest, most well-intentioned person in the world is not given the necessary teaching to learn to read, they will not very likely succeed in the modern world. You would assign this failure to them, and them alone.

I can't see how you can possibly assign responsibililty for that. I agree that they should not accept this outcome, and should try to find resources, but I do not hold them responsible for the LACK of others' resources. You appear to do so.


My oldest has this same attitude, 'Its not my fault.' It is when they make a continued effort to make choices that lead to failure. If I stopped going to work, paying the bills and turned to drugs. Who's fault would that be???


You're projecting your oldest's attitude on us. That's not even remotely justified.


Even if life pressures became so great that I couldn't bear it it would still be my fault for not getting back up when knocked down.


That doesn't mean you should be knocked down. It's not necessary to "knock down" people, even if they should get up afterwards. You appear to assume that we operate by lex talonis when you take the fault for not getting up, regardless of how hard you were knocked down, as well.

You will get old, just like the rest of us. (Well I hope you do, at least!) At some point you will NOT be able to "get up". That's a fact. Is it your fault you got old?


Admittedly your way is easier, blaming others for my failures would be great...it just wouldn't be the truth.


It's really quite uncivil of you to resort to stereotypes. It is not "blaming others" to point to a lack of opportunity for basic education, food, health care, etc, it is stating a fact. Such situations do exist. Do you deny it?


The End.

Now that's unethical. First, you project a false position on your opponents, then you utter the "LAST WORD". That's unethical, incivil, and simply offensive.

[Earthborn]

If I stopped going to work, paying the bills and turned to drugs. Who's fault would that be???I'd say that depends on who or what caused you to stop going to work, pay the bills and turn to drugs.

Even if life pressures became so great that I couldn't bear it it would still be my fault for not getting back up when knocked down.So if you break you legs in an accident you will blame yourself for not standing up?

I sure hope you never experience any setbacks in your life, because you'll end up constantly blaming yourself and feeling like a failure.

Yes, there are just varying levels of usage.So when you said "You must have the desire to see it through no matter what or who stands in your way" you were speaking an irrelevancy, as everyone already has that desire?

[Rob Lister]

Originally Posted by Earthborn:
People suffering from clinical depression are -- by the definition of clinical depression -- unable to make that choice. People cannot choose to 'snap out' of mental illness.


So you say.


But this is the first correct thing that Earthborn has said. One can't simply 'snap-out' of it.

Problem is, depression <> clinical depression.

Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance (to little serotonin) and doesn't actually bare much resemblence to regular depression. Plus it is easily and inexpensively treated by any of a number of re-uptake inhibitors.

Earthborn, are you claiming that black people suffer from clinical depression more than white people? If so, I'd like to see that data.

[jj]

But this is the first correct thing that Earthborn has said.


Ad-hom


One can't simply 'snap-out' of it.

Problem is, depression <> clinical depression.


Irrelevant. Clinical depression applies to GroundStrength's argument.


Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance (to little serotonin) and doesn't actually bare much resemblence to regular depression. Plus it is easily and inexpensively treated by any of a number of re-uptake inhibitors.


Sometimes it's easily treated. Sometimes it's not so easily treated.


Earthborn, are you claiming that black people suffer from clinical depression more than white people? If so, I'd like to see that data.

Straw man, and demand for the opponent to support YOUR straw man.

So, Rob, if you break both legs in a horrible, tragic accident, is it your fault for not "getting up"?

[Earthborn]

Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance (to little serotonin)Not quite that simple. Depression is associated with too little serotonin, but with these things it is often difficult to determine which is cause and which is effect.

doesn't actually bare much resemblence to regular depression.What you call 'regular depression' is actually not depression at all, at least how the medical community defines it. When a doctor says 'depression' s/he means clinical depression. There are similarities between having a dip and having a clinical depression, and there are also reasons to suspect that regardly having dips because of depressing circumstances can make one more susceptible to clinical depression.

Plus it is easily and inexpensively treated by any of a number of re-uptake inhibitors.It often can, but of course only if someone has access to medical care, recognises the symptoms to seek medical care, is correctly diagnosed and can afford the pills. All these things are less likely in a ghetto, even though the circumstances probably make it more necessary.

Earthborn, are you claiming that black people suffer from clinical depression more than white people?Not quite. I am claiming that people of low socioeconomic status suffer from clinical depression more than people of high socioeconomic status, which shouldn't be all that surprising if you think about it. And there is evidence that this is true:
http://www.apa.org/releases/lowses.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1996918&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12377299&dopt=Abstract
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/31/2/359

By extension, one might assume that because blacks are on average of lower socioeconomic status than whites, blacks likely suffer on average from more clinical depression than whites do. But there are also reasons to assume that blacks are not diagnosed as often as whites for depression:

Not recognised as such by health professionals (http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/depression/causes.shtml):
Differences in socioeconomic background may prevent psychiatrists from observing depression in people from lower economic classes; they simply cannot afford to seek medical attention for nonemergencies.
Not recognised by the people themselves because of cultural attitudes (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030930-000001.html):
Within the black community there are groups whose experience or environment makes them especially vulnerable to depression and other mental health disorders.

Yet depression carries such a stigma in the black community that the word is not easily uttered. Nor is the condition readily talked about. One major consequence is that depression is often misunderstood by those who have it, undetected and untreated, perpetuating unnecessary suffering at a time when helpful treatments are available and capable of preventing the long-term damage now thought to result from recurring bouts of depression.

[Rob Lister]

There was no ad hom. The depression part was a strawman but it wasn't my strawman, it was Earthborns. I was just helping her tear it down on her own.

clincical depression, as a cause for their failure, was her claim, not mine.

[Nex]

Certainly, although I'm not going to bother to dig up citations. If it's perfectly alright for you to pull arguments out of your butt, surely you won't mind if I do the same?

We should just f*ck like bunnies 'til we're all the same color. Then it won't matter anyway, and all racial inequalities will cease to exist. Drkitten, are you prepared to f*ck for equality?

In addition, I won this argument via cunning use of a Carlos Mencia bit.*












* I understand that this is the political forum, where no one has a sense of humor about anything. To that, I say "ttthhhhbbbpp!"

[pipelineaudio]

I'd say that depends on who or what caused you to stop going to work, pay the bills and turn to drugs.



Interesting, seems like those living in "the border states" could have a good reason to be out of work unable to pay the bills and turned to drugs

not that Im buying this as 100%

[luchog]

But they're mostly on college and university campuses. There's a good, practical reason for this. They're run by business professors and students, there's usually office space available fairly cheaply on the campus itself, and it makes it more convenient for the (part-time) staff who man the things. It's relatively less common to have them on community college campuses, and even less common to put them in the middle of the urban jungle (or out in the boondocks).
Actually, where I live, they're at least as commonly found at community colleges as they are at universities. And if you live in an area with public transportation of any sort, they're no problem at all to get to, since community colleges and universities almost invariably major destinations; often having specificly-dedicated lines from outlying areas.

And while housing around a university may be typically upscale (though that is highly debatable, as my own city demonstrates), community colleges are rarely located in the high-rent districts.

Many state and municipal governments also have entrepreneur/small business programs targetted specifically at minorities.

[luchog]

Is there a requirement for white people to give up their local dialects?
Ebonics is not a dialect. It's a political construct originally created in an attempt to legitimize slang/cant for the purposes of scamming ESL money for local school systems. It is not a single entity, but rather has become a generic term for a variety of highly variable forms of slang inherent to the inner-city urban black communities (though increasingly used by other, unrelated groups); and has none of the characteristics of a true dialect, though in some forms it approaches a pidgin.

[luchog]

I'd say no. But that isn't what yopu were talking about. You were talking about what stops black people from being successful. And quite a few blacks have found out that they can be successful by changing into a horrible stereotype of their own people and selling gobs of records to a predominantly rich white audience.
Not entirely irrelevant; since it's not just white people who listen to this stuff. They see the rap artists being successful portraying a strongly negative stereotype; and they learn from that. They emulate the stereotype themselves, legitimizing and perpetuating it. And part of that stereotype is the cult of victimhood, the "whitey is keeping us down, so we're not responsible for our own failings" attitude; rabid anti-establishment attitudes that prevent them from working effectively within the systems necessary to succeed; a disdain for education and work ethic; a self-absorbed value system that denigrates personal responsibility, family, and strong relationships in favour of objectification, "get mine first and screw everyone else" and devaluation of life and property; and a hedonistic, self-destructive fatalism. These values and attitudes are promoted by the gansta rappers, and absorbed by those who listen to them -- not primarily rich suburban white folks, but inner-city poor blacks; who emulate those who they see as "successful".

One can claim that the music only reflects prevailing attitudes, but it's clear that they're a strong influence. When "your own people" keep hammering into you that you're worthless criminal scum who will never amount to anything because the world will always keep you from succeeding, so the only thing to do is just get wasted and screw everyone else out of whatever you want; then eventually it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[luchog]

What you call 'regular depression' is actually not depression at all, at least how the medical community defines it. When a doctor says 'depression' s/he means clinical depression. There are similarities between having a dip and having a clinical depression, and there are also reasons to suspect that regardly having dips because of depressing circumstances can make one more susceptible to clinical depression.
Nope.

The medical community differentiates between "clinical depression" and "situational depression". The first is assumed, not proven, to result from a neurotransmitter dysfunction; the latter is strictly the result of circumstance and attitude. There is a lot of cross-over and misdiagnosis between the two; and the links you provided don't really differentiate adequately. There is also a considerable amount of thought that untreated long-term situational depression could result in an alteration of brain function resulting in clinical depression. It's highly likely that the assumed high rates of depression in minority communities are situational rather than clinical. Poor nutrition and drug abuse can also create symptoms that closely mimic clinical depression; both of which are far more common in low-income minority groups than in more affluent ones. However, it's currently politically expedient to downplay situational and external factors, and treat them all as if they're clinical.

[Earthborn]

Ebonics is not a dialect. and has none of the characteristics of a true dialect, though in some forms it approaches a pidgin.
Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English) and then decide whether it is more like a pidgin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin) (which is used by people who speak different native languages) or a dialect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect) (which is a variation of language spoken natively). Or perhaps you prefer the term ethnolect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnolect) is this context.

It's a political construct originally created in an attempt to legitimize slang/cant for the purposes of scamming ESL money for local school systems.It is created by its speakers, and is not created for money. Whether you think it is legitimate or not is irrelevant. If a variation of English is quite different from standard English, I honestly can't see what is wrong recognising that its speakers speak standard English as a second language.

It is not a single entity, but rather has become a generic term for a variety of highly variable forms of slang inherent to the inner-city urban black communities (though increasingly used by other, unrelated groups);Irrelevant. Just because there are different dialects that are all refered to as 'ebonics' does not prove they are not 'true' dialects. And whether they are 'true' dialects or not is also irrelevant, unless there is also a requirement for white people to give up their non-true dialects.

These values and attitudes are promoted by the gansta rappers, and absorbed by those who listen to them -- not primarily rich suburban white folks, but inner-city poor blacks; who emulate those who they see as "successful".I'm not disputing that black youths may emulate them, just that there is reason to believe that the popularity of gangsta rap is largely caused by the white audience of rap music.

Here (http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/prba/perspectives/fall2002/dixon-brooks.pdf)'s a study.

First, whites purchase more rap music than African Americans.

(snip)

Third, white rap consumption may influence rap music's marketing and promotion patterns. For example, Haines (1999) has observed that the popularity of so-called gangsta rap coincided with an increase in white consumption of rap music.

The medical community differentiates between "clinical depression" and "situational depression".Not the medical community I'm familiar with.

The first is assumed, not proven, to result from a neurotransmitter dysfunction; the latter is strictly the result of circumstance and attitude.Since circumstance can cause neurotransmitter dysfunction, the distinction between clinical and situational depression is a false one. Both are the same thing.

How did they come up with the idea that depression was caused by 'chemical imbalances' ? They did it by teasing lab-animals enough to cause them to exhibit depressed behaviour, killing them and studying their brains. The reason they became depressed was clearly situational, so it is rather ridiculous to claim that depression caused by neurotransmitter dysfunction is somehow different from situationally caused depression.

the links you provided don't really differentiate adequately.The links I provided don't differentiate where there is no difference.

However, it's currently politically expedient to downplay situational and external factors, and treat them all as if they're clinical.Calling it clinical depression does not downplay situational factors. The fact that minorities often have higher rates of clinical depression shows that clinical depression is largely situational.