Should you have to declare a major in high school?

[zakur]

Floridians do now:

Florida votes to require high school majors (http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/05/high.school.majors.ap/index.html)

TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- The Florida Legislature gave final approval to a bill Thursday that requires high school students to declare a major, similar to college students.

The measure now goes to Governor Jeb Bush, who pushed the requirement as part of a sweeping education overhaul approved by the House 90-24. The Senate passed it earlier in the day 39-1.

"It's important because it'll make the high school experience more relevant for a broader range of students," Bush said. "This will give them a chance to pursue education where their interests lie. ... There still will be core curricula credits that they'll need to pass."

[chulbert]

Conceptually, I think it's outstanding. Let kids focus their energy on subjects and studies that interest them while at the same time still giving them a "rounded" education.

Realistically, I can't imagine how this will work. How will a math major's coursework differ from that of someone focused on English? How much variety is even possible at the high school level? Large districts can offer quite a bit but there are a lot of small schools out there.

[drkitten]

Conceptually, I think it's outstanding. Let kids focus their energy on subjects and studies that interest them while at the same time still giving them a "rounded" education.

Realistically, I can't imagine how this will work. How will a math major's coursework differ from that of someone focused on English? How much variety is even possible at the high school level? Large districts can offer quite a bit but there are a lot of small schools out there.

Even most small schools are usually able to handle a large number of electives. I don't think, for example that I've ever seen a school in the United States that didn't offer mathmatics up to 12th grade, even when the local graduation standards only required up to 9th grade (algebra). I don't think I've ever seen a school that didn't offer at least two foreign languages.

Actually, the United Kingdom has been doing something like this for quite a while; students are typically required to spend their last two years of class doing "A-levels," extended two-year courses in specialized, elective areas. I could, for example, do an A-level in mathematics and in physics and never have to see the inside of a literature classroom -- of course, this assumes that I'm planning to reading the hard sciences at university and not something like the Classics.

[The Don]

In the UK there are voices of dissent who say that specialising too early ('A' levels are the equivalent of high school and the first year of college) are limiting and even at this relatively late stage students should be taking a range of courses.

It would be exceptional for someone to take more that 3 "hard" 'A' levels (general studies doesn't count, it's 'A' level pub quiz) so you do specialise.

[brodski]

Actually, the United Kingdom has been doing something like this for quite a while; students are typically required to spend their last two years of class doing "A-levels," extended two-year courses in specialized, elective areas. I could, for example, do an A-level in mathematics and in physics and never have to see the inside of a literature classroom -- of course, this assumes that I'm planning to reading the hard sciences at university and not something like the Classics.
Remember though that post 16 education in the UK is non compulsory. Kids only study to "A leval" if they want to, there is a smaller degree of specialisation in compulsory education after the age of about 13, but there are still compulsory core subjects. Personally I think that the specialisation in UK education comes far too early, it is possible to (like I did) get a degree without having studied any maths or science after the age of 16.

[drkitten]

Remember though that post 16 education in the UK is non compulsory.

I'm not sure this is relevant. Post-16 education in the United States is also usually non-compulory in a legal sense,.... but in practical terms, a high-school degree or 'A'-levels are more or less mandatory if you want the sort o job worth having. I believe Tony Blair's long-term plans involve something like 50% of all UK 25 year olds having university degrees, so the social expectations, an extra-legal compulsion, are still there.

Kids only study to "A leval" if they want to, there is a smaller degree of specialisation in compulsory education after the age of about 13, but there are still compulsory core subjects. Personally I think that the specialisation in UK education comes far too early, it is possible to (like I did) get a degree without having studied any maths or science after the age of 16.

Well, that's the down side of secondary-school specialization. But (without seeing the FL proposal in detail), I'm not sure that it's an issue for this particular proposal. Most states, including Florida (http://www.firn.edu/doe/curriculum/ccd2/gradreq.pdf), have a thoroughly inadequate set of "graduation requirements." (Actually, the FL requrements are better than some that I've seen.) A typical requirement would be something like four years of English, two years of mathematics, two years of sciences, two years of history, one of government and economics, and a year of physical education -- and four years full-time education in total, where the remaining 50% of the courses are free electives. So a student could still graduate with no mathematics or sciences after age 16 if they took all their electives in other areas.

Forcing them to "declare a major" or "take A-levels" or something wouldn't change that, since that same student would simply declare a non-mathematical, non-technical major. What it would change is the ability of a student to take free electives as a set of unrelated introductory classes with no coherent pattern of study. (E.g taking a year of music, a year of French, another year of phys ed, a year of dance, a year of busines studies, and so forth.) "Declaring a major" would at least force the students to study something as a coherent discipline, be it a foreign language or a vocational skill. (Yes, I'm the sort of person that thinks four years of one foreign language is probably a better course of study than one year each of four foreign languages -- and "majors" would impose this kind of structure.)

It's another question entirely whether students should be able to escape math class after age 16. One that I don't think the FL proposal addresses.

[drkitten]

In the UK there are voices of dissent who say that specialising too early ('A' levels are the equivalent of high school and the first year of college) are limiting and even at this relatively late stage students should be taking a range of courses.

I agree. In fact, I think that UK University students are overspecialized.

But then I'm scary that way.

[jj]

This.

Is.

Really.

Stupid.

I have read so many completely illiterate papers from very smart authors (technical papers), so many innumerate things from people who don't understand mathematics, etc, that I am very, very strongly in favor of a well-rounded education, including things like music, drawing, poetry, language as art, as well as mathematics, science, philosophy, history, ...

[brodski]

I'm not sure this is relevant. Post-16 education in the United States is also usually non-compulory in a legal sense.
I was under the impression that education to 18 was mandatory in the US, thanks for putting me straight.

[Zbu]

I appreciate the fact that Florida high schools are trying to put more of a focus on education, but it would be better if they just increased the amount of learning via more open AP classes. Why focus when you could get a better and bigger amount of learning through all subjects?

Perhaps the British have a point: have high school be where those who want to go to college (and can) make the break and those who are indifferent or just want a diploma waste their time in fewer classes and just go into a job field. This would, of course, mean that everybody would have to learn everything basic in the first eight years but I don't see that as impossible.

[jj]

I was under the impression that education to 18 was mandatory in the US, thanks for putting me straight.

Well, usually you have to get your diploma, or get to be old enough to drop out on your own authority.

Rules vary by state. Rather a lot.

[Zbu]

I was under the impression that education to 18 was mandatory in the US, thanks for putting me straight.

I actually had two classmates who lived in a rural area who bowed out after 16 to work with their father's company. Never heard from them again but given this economy, I think the lack of a high school diploma or testing out early without the benefit of going to college is just insane.

[drkitten]

I appreciate the fact that Florida high schools are trying to put more of a focus on education, but it would be better if they just increased the amount of learning via more open AP classes. Why focus when you could get a better and bigger amount of learning through all subjects?

Because "lack of focus" -- specifically, the inability or unwillingness to learn a single field in any sort of useful depth -- is a problem for a lot of students.

It's the "three years of one language" vs. "one year of three languages" again.

And the AP class option, although nice, is usually only offered during the final year (so it doesn't help sophomores and juniors structure their studies), doesn't help non-college bound students (the way a major in "carpentry" or "auto repair" would), and still doesn't address the issue of scatter-shot coursework.

One of my nieces attends a school district with a very good vo-tech program; there are something like five high schools in the small town where she lives, each with a "specialization" or two. One school, for example, "specializes" in printing technology (and handles most of the in-house printing for the district) and auto repair, another one "specializes" in construction, and so forth, a third in metalworking and foundry work, &c. Each of these schools offers three or four years of progressively responsible/professional work, and my understanding is that the graduates of these programs usually enjoy very good placement.

But you have to specialize to do this. School and district graduation policy doesn't distinguish between four years of printing (which will basically qualify you to open up your own printing shop), or one year each of printing, auto repair, carpentry, and typing (which will qualify you to do nothing at all). But which would you rather have your child study?

[Blue Bubble]

In the UK there are voices of dissent who say that specialising too early ('A' levels are the equivalent of high school and the first year of college) are limiting and even at this relatively late stage students should be taking a range of courses.

It would be exceptional for someone to take more that 3 "hard" 'A' levels (general studies doesn't count, it's 'A' level pub quiz) so you do specialise.


Actually, that's in England and Wales. In Scotland the system is different, and pupils are encouraged to do more subjects post-16 than 3. I did 7.

Not sure about Northern Ireland.

[Jorghnassen]

So the British A levels are similar to cegeps... Now I understand (or, at least, I think I do). On the other hand, I still don't quite understand the American system.

[wollery]

I'm not sure this is relevant. Post-16 education in the United States is also usually non-compulory in a legal sense,.... but in practical terms, a high-school degree or 'A'-levels are more or less mandatory if you want the sort o job worth having. I believe Tony Blair's long-term plans involve something like 50% of all UK 25 year olds having university degrees, so the social expectations, an extra-legal compulsion, are still there.The stated aim is 50% in higher or further education, which includes things like BTECs, HNDs, NVQs and foundation courses. Still nuts, but not quite as mindbogglingly bats in the belfry.

I agree. In fact, I think that UK University students are overspecialized.

But then I'm scary that way.You're scary in many ways! :p


Actually, that's in England and Wales. In Scotland the system is different, and pupils are encouraged to do more subjects post-16 than 3. I did 7.

Not sure about Northern Ireland.
In England and Wales there's a trend towards pupils doing 2 or 3 AS levels during their first year post-16 in addition to their 3 or 4 A levels (in different subjects).

[cyborg]

I have read so many completely illiterate papers from very smart authors (technical papers), so many innumerate things from people who don't understand mathematics, etc, that I am very, very strongly in favor of a well-rounded education, including things like music, drawing, poetry, language as art, as well as mathematics, science, philosophy, history, ...

I know what you mean. I have specialised in a technical direction and I have certainly noticed some, shall we say, inadaquacies in my peers with regards to certain things.

I'm not convinced it is so much a problem of having a well-rounded education so much that most people simply want to tick the boxes and have no real interest in actually being educated, even if they're smart people.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

My high school career was saved when I discovered computers, "declared my major," got a job, and had a great senior year.

That said, be required to declare a major? How silly.

~~ Paul

[Gravy]

I think it's great for students to have the opportunity to specialize if they want to, but as a committed lifelong generalist, I'm glad I didn't have to narrow my focus at a young age.

In fact, I used to hate being pigeonholed so much that didn't "declare" my major until my senior year of college, although I was sure to accumulate enough credits to graduate with the degree I wanted. That drove the professors and department chairs bonkers, which I quite enjoyed.

[Hindmost]

It will certainly depend on what is available as a major for students to select and what the true goals of the program. I believe that Florida is trying to push students to decide on something. Teachers see many students in High school that have essentially zero plans for the future. They just don't realize the world is not going to wait for them to figure out what they are going to do.

Most of the juniors and seniors that I teach already have decided on a major by the time they arrive in my class...if the student is already focused on a specific path, then declaring it would really not change anything. I do have some students that are just planning to go to college and figure out what to do later. However, for the student that is clueless as to what happens after high school--and believe me--there are quite a few, this may help that type of student work towards a specific goal. Implementation would be a challenge.

glenn--still trying to figure out what to do myself.