Converting from Christianity to Atheism

[Dioptre]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

[BlackCat]

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't
Well, first things first, I think an atheist would say "And where's the testable evidence that they are the word of god?"

Second, I would replace, "I don't" with "Faith is belief without evidence. If you can believe in things without evidence of them, why don't you believe in everything, such as fairies, conspiracy theories, psychics, angels, alien abductions, cats placed on this planet in order to control human minds for some great unknown cat-purpose, etc.?"

By the way, good for you on challenging your beliefs. Many of us did the same, so you're not alone.

Great first post!

BlackCat

[Just Me]

Second, I would replace, "I don't" with "Faith is belief without evidence. If you can believe in things without evidence of them, why don't you believe in everything, such as fairies, conspiracy theories, psychics, angels, alien abductions, cats placed on this planet in order to control human minds for some great unknown cat-purpose, etc.?"

BlackCat
WTrule8!!
I know for a FACT that cats are here to control me. My television told me. Sure it was unplugged at the time but. . . it was on television!!
Welcome to the forum Dioptre.

[shemp]

cats placed on this planet in order to control human minds for some great unknown cat-purpose

I can state from experience that this one is true.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Puss: There is no truth to this cat rumour whatsoever. You humans have nothing to fear from us, I swear on my honour.

[bluess]

Cats don't have honor. They have hairballs...

[Pauliesonne]

Death comes for us all, Puss, but something much worse comes for you. For when you die, it will be
...Without honor.

[Marquis de Carabas]

All right, let's give the thread back now...


* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
What is the clear and consistent message of the Gospels that God is communicating, and why are there so many disagreements about it?

[I less than three logic]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?
First, I’d leave the converting to the religious. I’ve said a few times that I don’t think attempting to convert people to Atheism is an appropriate course of action. No one should be telling others what to think, or seeking to deny another the right to their opinion. This is what I find trying to convert people to be. The best we could, or should, hope for is to do exactly what you’ve done. That is to challenge their own beliefs.

I believe the best way to approach this is to teach, promote, and, as a society, truly value critical thinking skills and the affection for learning. Carl Sagan had the right idea when he wrote that he’d love to see: “a community of people really working the mix – full of wonder, generously open to every notion, dismissing nothing except for good reason, but at the same time, and as second nature, demanding stringent standards of evidence – and these standards applied with at least as much rigor to what they hold dear as to what they are tempted to reject with impunity.” Whether or not this creates more Atheists is irrelevant, as it would at least address the problems of ignorance and credulity that create the misconceptions, prejudice, and animosity between people of various beliefs or non-belief.

However, it sounds like you’re dealing with someone already set in their belief, and, while promoting critical thinking may be useful to some extent, asking them to examine their beliefs like that will mostly like be taken offensively. In this case, I’d advise merely explaining why you’ve come to your conclusion, and the evidence and logic you used along the way. If they're willing to listen, perhaps you might influence them to examine their beliefs. If not, then the agree-to-disagree is the only option left. Hopeful, they’re civil enough to accept this and leave it at that. Any further attempt by them to convince you you’re wrong is clearly a violation of your personal boundaries, and is subject to acceptable social reactions as such.

Just my :twocents:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

My US$0.02. I'd actually see two possible courses for the conversation to take:
1) *P: I believe in God.
*A: That's nice.

2) *P: I believe in God.
*A: That's nice.
*P: You should too.
*A: Why?
....
At this point the onus is on the believer to provide a convincing argument, or convincing evidence, as to why the non-believer should change his/her position.

[Phil]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

Take a ride on a Razor. And I'm not talking about the scooter.

Huge discussion at TAM IV: "Can a believer be skeptic?"

Of course a believer can be a skeptic --- as long as he or she admits to turning off his or her skepticism when it comes to certain issues.

Many of us need to have faith in something. We are rational, intelligent beings, but that ration and intelligence is often far overshadowed by our capacity for emotion. And it's that emotion that is the basis of our need to believe. It's that emotion that shuts down skepticism in the face of certain issues.

If I were you, I'd examine the emotional background of my beliefs. Is there some other way you can find the emotional comfort you get from having faith? You may find that there are other ways and that you don't need your belief anymore, in which case, the Razor is much easier to apply to the things that really need it.

[Pauliesonne]

All the believer has to do is make the non-believer into an addict ( of something ) and then manipulate the non-believer when he/she is at their very lowest..

[writerdd]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

You don't. You celebrate that you are free from the guilt and fear that had been hanging over your head for all those years you'd been a believer. That is close to the path that I actually took in my departure from Christianity, except for the dragons.

Some people who go down this path prefer to maintain a belief in "god" and to continue to participate in their religion for family or social reasons, so they change their definition of god to mean a metaphor for the good in all humans or the source of all life or something else equally vague.

The counter argument from born-again Christians would most likely be "Faith" as in "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" and/or "I know God is real because he's in my heart and I experience his workings in my life."

[the_bgma]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

Challenging your own beliefs is good, it forces to examine WHY you have those beliefs. Is there reason behind it, or merely indoctrination?

A suggestion for a way to solve your dilemma: read. Read the Bible, including the notes in www.skepticsannotatedbible.com . Recognize that it is (of course) a fallible book written by men. Then read books on Atheism as well (go to my link below and there's a list of books to read), and maybe go back to some Christian apologetics books, or maybe Jefferson's Bible. You don't have to read a lot of books, just a select few.

And then distill what you have read, and come up an answer that works for you. Maybe you're an Atheist, or maybe an Agnostic or Deist, or maybe still a Christian. (Albeit a liberal one, I'm sure, you certainly won't be a bible-thumping fundamentalist after reading!) Whatever you end up with, you'll know that you looked at it from all angles and made your judgment based on the evidence at hand, incomplete though it is.

Good luck on your search!


******************************************
The Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist (http://www.freewebs.com/thebgma/index.htm)

[pgwenthold]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God


A: God who?

[uncy]

Ultimately it all boils down to you, belief is like sexuality in that you can’t choose it, and to find what’s best for you, you need to try different things. I guess it’s like ice cream too, how do you know which flavor is your favorite without tasting a bunch.

Whichever way you go, nobody who truly cares about you will hate you for it. As far as I’m concerned, I’m happy for people who have faith provided that it a) Truly makes them a better person, not in a, “holier than thou,” way, but in being a decent human being way and b) they follow George Carlin’s third commandment, “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself. (Unless of coarse you post on a forum titled, “Religion and Philosophy,” of coarse.

[a_unique_person]

This is a post I placed on ShipOfFools - I'm expecting a different take on it here.

Recently, as a skeptic, I've found myself challenging my own Christian beliefs. I'd be very interested to hear argument or counter-argument.

The train of thought goes something like this:

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Then why doesn't he have a clearer method of communicating with believers?
* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: And where's the testable evidence that they are recounts of the truth?
* P: I have faith
* A: I don't

How do I get back from here?

I went through a similar process once. Not quite so logical, but when it came down to it, I was never able to convince myself that any of it was true, despite my best efforts. The only logical conclusion was that there were many things that were easily proven, and many things easily disproven, but this one things seemed to be impossibly difficult to prove, but so easy to disprove.

[Dark Jaguar]

Ultimately it all boils down to you, belief is like sexuality in that you can’t choose it, and to find what’s best for you, you need to try different things. I guess it’s like ice cream too, how do you know which flavor is your favorite without tasting a bunch.

Whichever way you go, nobody who truly cares about you will hate you for it. As far as I’m concerned, I’m happy for people who have faith provided that it a) Truly makes them a better person, not in a, “holier than thou,” way, but in being a decent human being way and b) they follow George Carlin’s third commandment, “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself. (Unless of coarse you post on a forum titled, “Religion and Philosophy,” of coarse.

I disagree with the notion that you can't choose it, since I myself have had dedicated hardcore beliefs in the past for years at a time before figuring something out and moving on to where I am now. And, to have a favorite ice cream, I'd say all I need to try is one. It's instantly the one I like most (and worst).

[westphalia]

I'm not sure why the believer would answer "God doesn't interfere directly in the world." For a Christian (most, anyway), Christ's mission is a direct intervention into the world ("the Word became flesh, and dwealt among us"). Miracles are a direct intervention into the world. God speaking to Moses, Joshua or any other supposed prophets and leaders is a direct intervention into the world.

I don't think a true believer can possibly make that second statement without completely unsaddling the horse.

[Just Me]

I'm not sure why the believer would answer "God doesn't interfere directly in the world." For a Christian (most, anyway), Christ's mission is a direct intervention into the world ("the Word became flesh, and dwealt among us"). Miracles are a direct intervention into the world. God speaking to Moses, Joshua or any other supposed prophets and leaders is a direct intervention into the world.

I don't think a true believer can possibly make that second statement without completely unsaddling the horse.
Wonderful statement. I bow before you.

[Just Me]

Ultimately it all boils down to you, belief is like sexuality in that you can’t choose it, and to find what’s best for you, you need to try different things. I guess it’s like ice cream too, how do you know which flavor is your favorite without tasting a bunch.
snip

Sexually speaking, you should also probably find what is best for your partner(s).
The analogy used of sexuality can only be taken so far though.
A few weeks ago a mesa, arizona firefighter was discovered in a man's barn. With a sheep. :jaw-dropp The firefighter stood up and said, "You caught me. I was (rule 8) your sheep".
He was arrested for tresspasing. It seems bestiality is not a crime in mesa.:covereyes

[westphalia]

A few weeks ago a mesa, arizona firefighter was discovered in a man's barn. With a sheep. :jaw-dropp The firefighter stood up and said, "You caught me. I was (rule 8) your sheep".
He was arrested for tresspasing. It seems bestiality is not a crime in mesa.:covereyes

I heard that story on Distorted View. I guess there is no specific bestiality law in Arizona? It seems that if there had been one, they certainly had enough circumstantial evidence to charge him under it.

Can you imagine?:eek:

[Dogdoctor]

I heard that story on Distorted View. I guess there is no specific bestiality law in Arizona? It seems that if there had been one, they certainly had enough circumstantial evidence to charge him under it.

Can you imagine?:eek:
I am sure they could have charged him with some kind of sex crime with a minor since for sure the sheep wasn't old enough to vote.

[arthwollipot]

I didn't actually go through this process (thinking about converting - not bestiality with sheep - although I didn't actually go through that process either, and I can see now I'm just digging my hole deeper. Um, so to speak...)

For me it was very nearly a case of waking up one morning and realising that I was an atheist. There was no deep thought involved, although it had been building slowly over a number of years after I stopped going to church. I had thought I was an agnostic, but one day I suddenly realised that was no longer strictly accurate. Even though on a deeper level it actually is.

I think I'm just going to shut up now.

[Just Me]

I heard that story on Distorted View. I guess there is no specific bestiality law in Arizona? It seems that if there had been one, they certainly had enough circumstantial evidence to charge him under it.

Can you imagine?:eek:
A direct confession is a LOT more than circumstantial evidence.

[Just Me]

I didn't actually go through this process (thinking about converting - not bestiality with sheep - although I didn't actually go through that process either, and I can see now I'm just digging my hole deeper. Um, so to speak...)
snip.
I laughed so hard I got a 3 minute coughing fit![/I]

[Kopji]

LOL the Tempe sheep story never gets old. :)
Arizona legislators are still falling all over themselves trying to do something about it. Of course, about two months have passed with no action.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/0307deputychief-sheep07-ON.html

The most amazing thing in this is I found myself agreeing with Arpaio's comment at the end. I would think this could be prosecuted under animal cruelty statues except the sheep was found smoking a cigarette later with a smile on its face.

[Just Me]

LOL the Tempe sheep story never gets old. :)
Arizona legislators are still falling all over themselves trying to do something about it. Of course, about two months have passed with no action.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/0307deputychief-sheep07-ON.html

The most amazing thing in this is I found myself agreeing with Arpaio's comment at the end. I would think this could be prosecuted under animal cruelty statues except the sheep was found smoking a cigarette later with a smile on its face.
Wow, an intelligent sentence from Arpaio. And no mention of pink undies or green bologna.

[arthwollipot]

I laughed so hard I got a 3 minute coughing fit![/I]

Um... sorry?

[Diamond]

You celebrate that you are free from the guilt and fear that had been hanging over your head for all those years you'd been a believer. That is close to the path that I actually took in my departure from Christianity, except for the dragons.

For some reason I found this funny.

Dioptre:
Back to the original post, I was a fundamentalist Christian in my early twenties. Now I'm an agnostic. Or an apathetic atheist.

I did not convert to atheism/agnosticism. I de-converted piece by piece from Christianity. This is easy to do.

Why?

Because the object of religious belief on any kind is to suspend disbelief in the unreal. Think about it. Why do you go to church, bible study, fellowship or whatever on a regular weekly basis? Why are there so many exhortations to keep the faith, keep fellowship etc that you've heard? How many sermons have you heard about the perils of backsliding? Because reality represents a constant challenge to those religious beliefs. All the time. Every day. Why do so many sermons warn against reason and logic and the application of those things to the religion itself? Must people prefer insanity to sanity?

It's funny, but now as a naturalist and agnostic, I need no reinforcement, since my beliefs are congruent with testable reality. There is no cognitive dissonance. I don't need to meet with others to sing and dance about the law of gravity or the theory of evolution or the wonders of science. I don't spend any time on some ancient book of dubious history and morality looking for some secret pearls of wisdom.

I've stopped my membership of the "Self Watchers club". I'm no longer oscillating between self-loathing and extasy. I'm no longer under the gaze of the "All Seeing Eye". I'm no longer trying to cram my brain with absurd notions. I'm no longer plagued by guilt (which is really false guilt) over things I've done, things I should have done, thing I ought to have done. I am a lot easier on myself.

My life is not a bed of roses. I still have lots of things to struggle with, but it is 100% real and I accept no alternatives.

No-one taught me to become an agnostic. I'm still wary of the term atheist.

Plus, it frees up Wednesday evenings and the whole of Sunday.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

* P: I believe in God
* A: Where's the testable evidence for God?
* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: And there's an invisible dragon in my garage
* P: But God could act through people who believe

* A: So can my dragon.
* P: You're just being silly!
* A: (Picks up phone) Hello?, Skillet? I've got a message from the kettle...

LLH

[pipelineaudio]

Wow, an intelligent sentence from Arpaio. And no mention of pink undies or green bologna.

That IS his intelligent stuff

Wait till you see him when he jumps on PC bandwagon stuff its hillarious

[thaiboxerken]

Here is how I would handle this:


* P: I believe in God
* A: Which one?

* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: Then why even care if that god exists or not?

* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Bullcrap.

* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: The bible is a book of mythology.


* P: I have faith
* A: Faith is admittance of defeat in a debate.

[Just Me]

That IS his intelligent stuff

Wait till you see him when he jumps on PC bandwagon stuff its hillarious
Luckily I moved out to Pinal so I no longer have to worry about him.

[Just Me]

Um... sorry?
When I laugh really hard I sometimes begin to cough. Be glad you didn't see me watch Wedding Crashers for the 1st time.:o

[arthwollipot]

Here is how I would handle this:


* P: I believe in God
* A: Which one?

* P: God doesn't interfere directly in the world
* A: Then why even care if that god exists or not?

* P: But God could act through people who believe
* A: Bullcrap.

* P: He does - the Gospels
* A: The bible is a book of mythology.


* P: I have faith
* A: Faith is admittance of defeat in a debate.

Unfortunately, none of these are convincing arguments.

[elliotfc]

What is the clear and consistent message of the Gospels that God is communicating, and why are there so many disagreements about it?


What is the clear and consistent message of the Gospels that God is communicating, and why are there so many disagreements about it?

Who do you say that I am? That's the question, isn't it? Of course there will be disagreements in answering that question.

I have my own particular answer, but I look at the gospels as the next step in a series of steps. In this context Christ is the New Covenant. If you look at the gospels by themselves you may not get that message. Or, you can take a verse like John 3:16, nominate that as the clear and consistent message, and see it validated throughout the text of all four gospels.

I think it's important that every individual find their own particular answer to this question. That we are given four gospels shows that the individual must interact and appreciate Christ's life in a unique way. Of course, as the gospels correspond for the most part, so should the Christian theologies. We can get most Christians to agree that God loves us, God sent his Son to die for us, and that it is important to spread this message to the world. Instead of worrying about the disagreements (which, relatively speaking, would be minor), that's how I'd answer your question.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Ultimately it all boils down to you, belief is like sexuality in that you can’t choose it, and to find what’s best for you, you need to try different things. I guess it’s like ice cream too, how do you know which flavor is your favorite without tasting a bunch.

No, you can choose what you believe and what you don't believe. People do it all the time.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

I went through a similar process once. Not quite so logical, but when it came down to it, I was never able to convince myself that any of it was true, despite my best efforts. The only logical conclusion was that there were many things that were easily proven, and many things easily disproven, but this one things seemed to be impossibly difficult to prove, but so easy to disprove.

If belief is universal (I believe it is), standards and boundaries and filters are particular individual constructs to facilitate belief.

Personally, I don't see how "ease" has anything *essential* to do with this. The issue, say, of the gospels, may be difficult. Or simple. Whatever. Now, ease comes into play on the individual level. Occam's Razor can be a brilliant coping mechanism for some (coping mechanism not being a negative concept but a universal and necessary intellectual device) and mean nothing to another.

Any believer, and that includes myself, assert that there is proof for the Christian belief. The proof we accept, and that enables us to believe, is unsuitable for others. There is no such thing as *objective* proof. Things are, things happen, any connections are intellectual machinations. Water is wet, and if no intelligent beings were around to make a note of that, or prove that is some fashion, it wouldn't matter. Proof follows the facts, incidentally for that matter, and the facts don't need proof.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

For me it was very nearly a case of waking up one morning and realising that I was an atheist. There was no deep thought involved, although it had been building slowly over a number of years after I stopped going to church. I had thought I was an agnostic, but one day I suddenly realised that was no longer strictly accurate. Even though on a deeper level it actually is.

I've had similar experiences. There's a spectrum. You can choose to believe, or be something, on one end. On the other end you can just realize that, unbeknownst to you, you are something. Or anything in between.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Because the object of religious belief on any kind is to suspend disbelief in the unreal. Think about it. Why do you go to church, bible study, fellowship or whatever on a regular weekly basis? Why are there so many exhortations to keep the faith, keep fellowship etc that you've heard? How many sermons have you heard about the perils of backsliding? Because reality represents a constant challenge to those religious beliefs. All the time. Every day. Why do so many sermons warn against reason and logic and the application of those things to the religion itself? Must people prefer insanity to sanity?

I disagree. Go to the start. Does "disbelief in the unreal" exist before religious belief? Really think that one through...come up with a prehistoric scenario that we can work with or something.

You say that reality represents a constant challenge to religious belief...but at least where I hang, it's just the opposite. Reality reinforces religious belief. If you were correct in your thesis, religious belief wouldn't be all that prevalent. Religions would collapse just like Puritanism collapsed. Puritanism *could not* handle reality, so it failed. I'm happy to apply Darwinian selection to this one.

Sermons warning against reason and logic? Got any textual material to back up that one? You've apparently decided that religious people are unreasonable, illogical, and insane, am I right?

It's funny, but now as a naturalist and agnostic, I need no reinforcement, since my beliefs are congruent with testable reality.

Isn't this mere recognition reinforcement?

There is no cognitive dissonance. I don't need to meet with others to sing and dance about the law of gravity or the theory of evolution or the wonders of science. I don't spend any time on some ancient book of dubious history and morality looking for some secret pearls of wisdom.

But you do spend time in this forum. No, of course you don't need to. Then it's a way to pass the time? I guess you have to do something.

Plus, it frees up Wednesday evenings and the whole of Sunday.

But again, you have to do something to pass time. As do religious people.

When you shake it down, what then matters? Is it up to the individual? What would you recommend that other people do? And if they refuse, does that matter?

-Elliot

[kurious_kathy]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments.

How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.

[Marquis de Carabas]

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
Unless we replace the word God with "me" in each of the above, in which case I follow them all faithfully, my life could very easily be construed as the very anithesis of these meaningless rules.

5. Respect Mom And Dad
Yep, but only because they are worthy of it, not just because they happened to perform the specific sex act that brought me into existence.

6. Don't Kill
I'm usually pretty good with this one.

7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
Irrelevant.

8. Don't Steal
Check.

9. Always Tell The Truth
I always do, naturally, but that could be a lie.

10. Be Content With What You Have
Pretty much, yeah.

[elliotfc]

Who's the goalie in your avatar Marq? Good year to be a Sabres fan eh? I've got $500, 15 to 1 odds on them winning the Cup. -Elliot

[Marquis de Carabas]

Who's the goalie in your avatar Marq? Good year to be a Sabres fan eh? I've got $500, 15 to 1 odds on them winning the Cup. -Elliot
Fredrik Norrena, Finnish National Team, currently backing up Niittymaki at the IIHF Worlds. And, yes, the Sabres are looking mighty impressive, and are my pick to win the East, although Carolina will be a tough hurdle, especially if Cole makes it back.

We have a Playoffs thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=55493) you're more than welcome to join, lest we continue our derail.

[I less than three logic]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have
George Carlin did a good job of addressing these and came up with a more practical or realistic list of 3 commandments (http://www.dvrbs.com/world/GeorgeCarlin-TheTenCommandments.htm). :)

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10? …Well let me ask you this- when they were making this [Rule 8] up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision!

Carlin’s 3 Commandments:
1) Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

2) Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

3) Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[Diamond]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All

Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?

2. Worship Only God

Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?

3. Respect God's Name

Jesus H Christ! Do we have to?

4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God

I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.

5. Respect Mom And Dad

I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?

6. Don't Kill

I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?

7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse

Many people have been. However sometimes the spouses have played away.

8. Don't Steal

Unless God told you that you were supposed to have it in the first place....

9. Always Tell The Truth

Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.

10. Be Content With What You Have
I sometimes wonder if a little bit of avarice isn't a good thingg after all.

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments.

They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.

How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.

The prickling in my heart is probably indigestion, not false guilt to fail to come up to impossible standards. It's clear that all religions are based on impossible standards and false guilt to propagate themselves.

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

[thaiboxerken]

Unfortunately, none of these are convincing arguments.

Facts are always good arguments. I do agree that facts are, often, not convincing evidence to theists.

[thaiboxerken]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all.


Strange. None of those 10 commandments even comes close to mentioning a savior, let alone Jesus F Christ.

[Robin]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
Nope. My little kids are what I love most of all
2. Worship Only God
Well I don't worship anything that isn't a God. Do I get a technical pass? I will award myself half.
3. Respect God's Name
A priest friend was impressed that our kids were familiar with the name "Jesus", until he twigged in what context they had heard it. I guess that is a fail.
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
Half mark for taking a day to rest
5. Respect Mom And Dad
Yep.
6. Don't Kill
Yep.
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
Yep
8. Don't Steal
Yep
9. Always Tell The Truth
Have trouble with "do I look fat in this?"
10. Be Content With What You Have
Yep - 70 or so years on a mostly harmless planet. No desire for the "eternal bliss" bribe.

That is six out of ten. Do I need a saviour? I looked up Genesis but couldn't find the scoring scheme. Something like:

0 : Forget it kiddo, no saviour could save you!
1-3 : You need to get yourself a saviour
4-6 : Not bad, but a saviour is still recommended
7-9 : Wow, impressive - are you sure you were telling the truth?
10 : Sorry Son, you are not elibible to enter.

[elliotfc]

This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.

Yes, if the God exists and tries to communicate said things, it kind of follows that the God cares about said things.

Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?

This one is easy. The God of Abraham. The God of the Jews. The God who interacted with the prophets, like Moses. I don't know if it has to do with self-esteem. There could be other reasons too. The God says that the people should have no other gods except for him, so it's pretty clear which God is being talked about, if you were following the story up to that point.

As humans, it is easy to want to think that God thinks like us, so we'd chalk it up to self-esteem or something. If God is the source, the prime mover, the creator, Love, whatever, recognizing that seems sensible to me on some level, so sensible that the self-esteem question really doesn't register to me.

Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?

Again, you have to follow the story. The God who says he is the right one is the right one. If you disagree you can go with the golden calf.

I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.

Yes, but if it's Mondays, then Mondays would become more like Sundays, in which case you'd hate Tuesdays, and you can figure out what happens when you nominate Tuesdays.

I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?

No pissing on their graves, with all due respect. Flowers once a year? Have you ever seen Cemetery Man? Don't have sex on their graves, unless they asked you to.

I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Right, this is the whole killing/murder question.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?

Yeah, and God didn't tell him to do it.

Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.

With that attitude it certainly is impossible!

I think this has a very legal meaning, like, before a judge, you shouldn't bear false witness. I don't extrapolate it to complimenting how a neighbor's lawn looks if you really think it looks crappy. I could be wrong I guess.

They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.

No, they are standards. They don't fail everybody, or, maybe only a few fail everybody. As for the breathing comment...don't be ridiculous!

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

I agree.

-Elliot

[Diamond]

I disagree. Go to the start. Does "disbelief in the unreal" exist before religious belief? Really think that one through...come up with a prehistoric scenario that we can work with or something.

Certainly. The oldest religious beliefs are animistic, the notion that certain places, animals, substances contain or embody a sentient spirit that must be negotiated with.

You say that reality represents a constant challenge to religious belief...but at least where I hang, it's just the opposite. Reality reinforces religious belief. If you were correct in your thesis, religious belief wouldn't be all that prevalent. Religions would collapse just like Puritanism collapsed. Puritanism *could not* handle reality, so it failed. I'm happy to apply Darwinian selection to this one.

Not quite. Anthropologically, religious belief is there in all human societies. It can never be "got rid of" or "superceded". The function of religion is to not be proven false, and so to do this, explanations which involve reason are curtailed and may be seen as evil. Religious propositions are designed not to be falsifiable, but are brought to the fore to explain the unexpected and the unexplained. Since there is always more unexpected and unexplained phenomena than known or explicable, then religious belief will always be there.

Sermons warning against reason and logic? Got any textual material to back up that one? You've apparently decided that religious people are unreasonable, illogical, and insane, am I right?

No, I haven't. I'm saying that there is no statement in the Bible in favor of intelligence or rationality. Religious people are not insane (I'm talking generally). That which they profess is insane and illogical and unreasonable.

But you do spend time in this forum. No, of course you don't need to. Then it's a way to pass the time? I guess you have to do something.

I don't have to be here, nor is my presence required, nor will it damn me for all eternity if I never post here again. Nor do I have to profess any common set of beliefs.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal. That's the fundamental difference between religion and agnosticism.

When you shake it down, what then matters? Is it up to the individual? What would you recommend that other people do? And if they refuse, does that matter?

-Elliot

It clearly matters to religious people who go to great lengths to convince the irreligious that their religion is the Truth(tm). I'm not recommending anything. I give my opinion based on my experience, not because I'm trying to proselytize.

Leave it to the individual? Certainly. Because ultimately that's the only real freedom we have.

[elliotfc]

Certainly. The oldest religious beliefs are animistic, the notion that certain places, animals, substances contain or embody a sentient spirit that must be negotiated with.

OK...so what is the "disbelief in the unreal" in this situation? Your phrase, not mine. Did they not believe in the unreal sentient spirits before they believed in them?

Not quite. Anthropologically, religious belief is there in all human societies. It can never be "got rid of" or "superceded". The function of religion is to not be proven false, and so to do this, explanations which involve reason are curtailed and may be seen as evil.

The function of religion is to not be proven false. The prime function, or one function among many? You would agree that there are many "explanations" in religion. Are they all unreasonable? Most of them? Some of them?

I dunno, I never learned this stuff in my anthro classes, I confess to being mystified by what you're talking about.

Religious propositions are designed not to be falsifiable, but are brought to the fore to explain the unexpected and the unexplained.

Consciously or unconsciously? What about the propositions that are falsifiable, like the Ghost Dance?

[No, I haven't. I'm saying that there is no statement in the Bible in favor of intelligence or rationality. Religious people are not insane (I'm talking generally). That which they profess is insane and illogical and unreasonable.[/QUOTE]

So things that are professed can be insane? I think insanity pertains to people, but I'll let you extend the definition I guess.

Boy. Are there statements in a science textbook in favor of intelligence or rationality? Are there statements in the Bible in favor of breathing? Are there statements in the Bible in favor of not banging your head against rocks?

I don't have to be here, nor is my presence required, nor will it damn me for all eternity if I never post here again. Nor do I have to profess any common set of beliefs.

Agreed. Nobody has to do anything. Not me. Not you. Not the fundamentalist who lives next door. You do things. They do things. When they do things, you come up with these brilliant anthropological pronouncements. When you do things...well, I'll keep my opinions on the psychology of your behavior to myself.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal. That's the fundamental difference between religion and agnosticism.

I don't have to profess belief in the unreal either, and I'm religious. I don't see your point. Nobody has to do anything.

[QUOTE]It clearly matters to religious people who go to great lengths to convince the irreligious that their religion is the Truth(tm). I'm not recommending anything. I give my opinion based on my experience, not because I'm trying to proselytize.[//QUOTE]

Religious people also give their opinions based on experience.

-Elliot

[Diamond]

Elliotfc

Since you've clearly decided that the best defence is to mock my replies with inane responses and personal attacks, I'll leave the thread to you.

[kurious_kathy]

Facts are always good arguments. I do agree that facts are, often, not convincing evidence to theists.
Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right? And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right? But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring. Only God knows. So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.

It's strange to me now but when I look back on my life now as a believer I realize He was always there just trying to get my attention. A life without God only left me feeling abandoned and alone. It's not this way anymore. All I can share is I really believe each of us has a God shaped whole inside our heart, the question is whether we will invite Him in? I did and there is no more longing or emptiness, God satisfies!

[Marquis de Carabas]

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right?
The backseat of a Buick, actually.

And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right?
Hoboken.

But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?
Again, Hoboken.

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring, only God knows.
What makes you think God knows, just because no-one else is sure?

So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.
Of course not. There is also, as noted prior, Hoboken.

[thaiboxerken]

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right?

Basic reproduction classes are offered at most k-12 programs. I suggest you attend one.

And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right?

There are many destinations in my journey.


But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?

Nope. No person knows these things, as there are too many factors in life to know exactly where they'll end up. I do know this for a fact, I will die and so will everyone else. Death is the final destination.

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring. Only God knows. So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.

Which god?

It's strange to me now but when I look back on my life now as a believer I realize He was always there just trying to get my attention. A life without God only left me feeling abandoned and alone. It's not this way anymore. All I can share is I really believe each of us has a God shaped whole inside our heart, the question is whether we will invite Him in? I did and there is no more longing or emptiness, God satisfies!

Which god is this? Do you have evidence of your god? Do you realize that atheists often lead full and satisfying lives as well?

[wolfgirl]

Ok then what about conviction? When we look at God's Law which is in the 10 Commandments we should all realize none of us have kept them all. I know for me it was quite an eye opener to realize how much I did not measure up to what God expects of us.

Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Take One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

When I repented just a little less than 2 years ago I had to compare myself to these standards and realize I needed a Savior. Only Jesus can redeem us from being lost. I saw myself as lost because I had broken most if not all of these commandments. I think most of us are down with the last six of these, more or less. It's the first four most of us have trouble with. They don't really prescribe any sort of moral standards at all, just ways to worship and please the invisible sky-friend.How about you guys, ever told a lie or stole anything? The writing is on the wall none of us has lived up to God's commands. The difference is when we finally start to see it and have that certain prickling in our heart that tells us we need to do something to get right with the one who created us. I have this conviction everyday of my life now and it humbles me.All of us have probably done things wrong. We regret it even though we don't believe in these commandments. We regret it because it was wrong. We know right from wrong without these commandments. People of other religions also know right from wrong without these commandments. Do you think that yours is the only religion that tells people how to behave decently to one another?

[wolfgirl]

Each day is a giftTo quote Tony Soprano, "But does it always have to be a pair of socks?"

[kurious_kathy]

Do you think that yours is the only religion that tells people how to behave decently to one another?

Not at all. God is love and I believe He knows which of us are capable of loving Him and eachother. The problem is there are many forms of religion which are considered false religions. It's up to each of us to not be deceived.

Jesus said He was the only way to the Father, that is something we all need to accept. God said it, I believe it. No matter what this world puts us through, we are His. I know there is an eternity to look forward to just by knowing and sharing this one truth with others. I hope we will all come to know love and find salvation.

It's strange but this one truth is what unites people from all other places in the world. It doesn't matter your race or religion, it matters whether you believe Jesus died to save you. It's about having a relationship with God through Christ. We are reconciled to God through His Son.

[Genesius]

Hoboken.


Again, Hoboken.


What makes you think God knows, just because no-one else is sure?


Of course not. There is also, as noted prior, Hoboken.
[Bugs Bunny]

Hoboken ?!?

Ooooh, I'm dyin'!!

[/Bugs Bunny]

:D

[thaiboxerken]

Not at all. God is love and I believe..<snip the sermon>

Did you have anything of substance to add, or were you just going to keep preaching? Sermons such as yours really have no appeal to those who don't believe in your flavor of mythology.

[Marquis de Carabas]

The problem is there are many forms of religion which are considered false religions.
Yours, to pick an example at random.

[wollery]

Actually there were originally 11 commandments, but Moishe, the schlemiel, dropped one on his way back down the mountain.


Seriously though Kathy, why do you pick that set of commandments to follow? There's more than one set (http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm) you know!

[Diamond]

I've also managed to avoid the heinous crime of boiling a baby goat in its mother's milk.

[kurious_kathy]

Did you have anything of substance to add, or were you just going to keep preaching? Sermons such as yours really have no appeal to those who don't believe in your flavor of mythology.
Love is not a myth, it is real and if you ask me it's a real miracle! Don't you believe in love? Love is also more than a feeling, it is an action. I think most of us have experienced it and hopefully we've had something to know we are lucky or blessed. If a man has no love he doesn't have much, at least in my opinion.

[Huh-What?]

Facts, OK You came from somewhere, right? And you are definitely headed somewhere through your journey called life, right? But do you know where it was that you came from and forsure where you will end up?
I was a biological product of my parents need to mate. Cold, maybe, but the truth isn't always warm and fuzzy. Life is a journey, but you will miss out if all you are looking forward to is the destination. Death is waiting at the finish line and no one runs a second heat.

I don't think any of us no forsure what each day will bring. Only God knows. So see we aren't in control, He is. Each day is a gift that only God can give. I myself do not believe that the grave is all there is.
It must be very comforting to pass-the-buck and hold your invisible friend accountable. Why not blackness when it is over? When the blood flow to your brain stops you will cease to exist. No more pain, sadness, happiness, guilt, pleasure, desire, regret...etc. Nothing. The being that is uniquely you will be no more on any level. Why is that so hard to believe? I know it isn't comforting, but, again, truth not always warm & fuzzy.

It's strange to me now but when I look back on my life now as a believer I realize He was always there just trying to get my attention. A life without God only left me feeling abandoned and alone. It's not this way anymore. All I can share is I really believe each of us has a God shaped whole inside our heart, the question is whether we will invite Him in? I did and there is no more longing or emptiness, God satisfies!
Here is my problem with this; wouldn't someone with an imaginary friend say the exact same thing? Instead of "God" substitute "Fred." How long would you spout this before you were committed if you just named your imaginary friend Fred?

Now, please don't respond with how sorry you feel for me. That I must have no love or happiness in my life. That somehow I must be hollow if there is no god in me.

The truth of the matter is this; I feel sorry for you. Your everyday life is spent trying to satisfy a superstition. Waiting for the day you die so THEN you can be truly happy. How drab the world must be if you believe everything happens because of some great Greek tragedy being played out. A play where you are a grateful puppet with an unseen marionette. Yours is not to question his motives, just dance and be thankful when he puts you away in his suitcase.

However, I live my life the best I can. Because it is the only one I get. So many things fascinate me. From the vegetation at my feet to the stars and galaxies in the night sky. There is an excitement you experience when you look out at the night sky and realize how small you really are. That excitement would not be there if a being controlled everything and planned every second of every day for an eternity. However, you know how special life is when you realize that none of us had to be here.

[thaiboxerken]

Love is not a myth, it is real and if you ask me it's a real miracle! Don't you believe in love?

Love is simply an emotion, we know for a fact that humans have emotions. It's scientifically proven. The fact that love is real doesn't mean your god is.

[kurious_kathy]

Yours, to pick an example at random.
When I get done with my course in apologetics I will tackle this on a different thread. I don't like to bash other religions, but I do know we need to point their error out to them. It's strange that I just read the last chapter in 2 Peter 3:9-18 which had this to say...
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Notice the last sentence says to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. So for starters any religion that is not based on knowing Jesus we know is false. There are others that have their doctrine messed up like Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons, but that's all I'm gona say about it for now. Everything outside of Christ leads to death! God help us all know the one who saves!

[thaiboxerken]

Apologetics is simply the skill of making excuses, telling lies and using various other dishonest methods to tray and explain away the errors, nonsense and contradictions in dogma, holy books and religious beliefs. Your course on apologetics will only make you more annoying, it won't make you right.

[kurious_kathy]

Love is simply an emotion, we know for a fact that humans have emotions. It's scientifically proven. The fact that love is real doesn't mean your god is.
Well to me He is the author of love. If it wasn't for His Spirit in this world I doubt any of us would experience love!

[kurious_kathy]

I was a biological product of my parents need to mate. Cold, maybe, but the truth isn't always warm and fuzzy. Life is a journey, but you will miss out if all you are looking forward to is the destination. Death is waiting at the finish line and no one runs a second heat.

However, I live my life the best I can. Because it is the only one I get. So many things fascinate me. From the vegetation at my feet to the stars and galaxies in the night sky. There is an excitement you experience when you look out at the night sky and realize how small you really are. That excitement would not be there if a being controlled everything and planned every second of every day for an eternity. However, you know how special life is when you realize that none of us had to be here.

Ah but what if you just for once tried to believe what we are told about God in the Bible? Then you would not think the physical death is all there is. Scripture does tell us the second death will be even worse than the first for those outside of Christ. That's the beginning of a new life, one we haven't seen yet, but it does exist. Why don't you believe there's more than just here and now? People do have souls that do go on for eternity, the question is where do you want to spend yours? I guess science is still struggling to proove people are born with souls, but I know in my heart without a doubt it's true and we are made to be with God forever! By denying Him you only condemn yourselves. He loves us so much He was willing to die to redeem us from a fallen world, don't let yourselves be deceived.


I do love your expression of the universe and how vast all of creation is. How awesome is nature? I love it to. We have many things we can enjoy here and now in this lifetime, but if we think it's great now, how much more can it be in heaven? We won't see lots of the painful things we see and experience in this world now as we know it. It is said heaven is a perfect place, don't you want to go if it does exists?

[wollery]

Seriously though Kathy, why do you pick that set of commandments to follow? There's more than one set (http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm) you know!What, no answer Kathy? :rolleyes:

[Marquis de Carabas]

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Of course, if your religion is false, its holy babble would likely contain false statements. So, this proves nothing.

My entire religion is based on a fortune I received at a Chinese buffet one time that proclaims "You are the greatest in the world." Is there any particular reason I should believe your Bible over the very special and personal message delivered to me in a cookie?

[Mrs. Hmmphries]

Luckily I moved out to Pinal so I no longer have to worry about him.

For close to seven years I was safely out of his reach in Coconino county...

It always amazes me how much support that man manages to get.

[thaiboxerken]

Well to me He is the author of love. If it wasn't for His Spirit in this world I doubt any of us would experience love!

Wrong, Aphrodite is the Goddess of love. Cupid is the messenger. Someday, you'll learn these things.

[wolfgirl]

The problem is there are many forms of religion which are considered false religions. It's up to each of us to not be deceived.All of the other religions say the same thing, and they consider your religion to be the false one. How can you possibly know that it's not you who are being deceived? Oh, yeah, I know, because you "feel" it to be true and "know" it to be true. So do the followers of the other religions.It doesn't matter your race or religion, it matters whether you believe Jesus died to save you.What a silly statement. How can you say it doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you believe in Jesus?
If "you believe Jesus died to save you," doesn't that make you a de facto christian.

[I less than three logic]

Of course, if your religion is false, its holy babble would likely contain false statements. So, this proves nothing.

My entire religion is based on a fortune I received at a Chinese buffet one time that proclaims "You are the greatest in the world." Is there any particular reason I should believe your Bible over the very special and personal message delivered to me in a cookie?
I’d pick the cookie religion. All you’ll get with the Bible one is some stale bread, which is not nearly as tasty. :)

[wolfgirl]

I don't like to bash other religions, but I do know we need to point their error out to them.How can anyone make you understand that each religion believes this very exact same thing. They would feel the need to point out your error to you. How can any person possibly know that theirs is the right and true one, other than a "feeling." And everyone, of every religion, has this same "feeling," so it proves absolutely nothing.Notice the last sentence says to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. So for starters any religion that is not based on knowing Jesus we know is false.Who is this "we" that "knows" all the other religions are false? Oh, yeah, you christians. You somehow have this magic book that "proves" that yours is right and theirs is wrong. But wait! They have a magic book, too! And theirs proves that theirs is right and yours is wrong. Go figure.

[wolfgirl]

Ah but what if you just for once tried to believe what we are told about God in the Bible?I don't know about anyone else here (though I suspect most feel the same way), but I can't just "try to believe" something that makes absolutely no friggin' sense to me at all. You either believe or you don't, you can't "try to believe."Why don't you believe there's more than just here and now? People do have souls that do go on for eternity, the question is where do you want to spend yours?We don't believe because there's not one iota of evidence for it. You can choose to believe that people have souls, but don't spout it as though it were fact. Acknowledge that it's just a belief that you hold because you can't cope with the idea of this being all there is.I guess science is still struggling to proove people are born with souls, but I know in my heart without a doubt it's true and we are made to be with God forever!Science, or at least not any serious or reputable scientists that I know of, is not "struggling to prove people are born with souls." They pretty much don't bother with such a nonsensical idea.

[Humphreys]

Kathy, what makes you think that feeling you know something in your heart to be true makes it true in reality?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Kathy, what makes you think that feeling you know something in your heart to be true makes it true in reality?
Her heart tells her so.

[Humphreys]

My heart tells me Kathy is a plonker.

Whose heart is the best guesser, Kathy?

[Mrs. Hmmphries]

This probably has a LOT to do with my not having slept at all last night, but everytime I read one of Kathy's posts, I picture the Stay-Puft marshmallow man in a swiss miss hot cocoa girl type wig...

[CP489]

After reading through this, it still perplexes me how someone can consistently confuse belief with fact, even after it's pointed out to them.

I can believe that my 99 Malibu is an 06 Z06, I can believe it as hard as I want. I could even pray to it if I wished, but when I got in my car tonight, it would still be my POS Malibu. You can believe that you will never die with all your heart, but you still won't escape death.

Someone touched on pity earlier, but I think for the wrong reasons.

I pity Christians as well, but not because they spend time worshipping an invisible and clearly uncaring deity. I pity them because their religion makes them feel so inferior and insecure. It makes them waste this precious life hoping for the next.

It's just so sad to me.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I can believe that my 99 Malibu is an 06 Z06, I can believe it as hard as I want. I could even pray to it if I wished, but when I got in my car tonight, it would still be my POS Malibu. You can believe that you will never die with all your heart, but you still won't escape death.
Obviously your faith is not strong enough. You do not have TRUE belief. You can send me a cheque for a few thousand dollars, which will help your faith immensely, I assure you. PM for the address.

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy, what makes you think that feeling you know something in your heart to be true makes it true in reality?
It is said certain things like eternity are planted inside the human heart, check it out.

Ecclesiastes 3: 10-12...
I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves.
God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good in one's lifetime;

I'm not wasting my life worshipping my God who is worthy.

[Marquis de Carabas]

It is said certain things like eternity are planted inside the human heart, check it out.
Who cares what is said. Why do you--and why should anyone else--believe it?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

...I guess science is still struggling to proove people are born with souls, but I know in my heart without a doubt it's true and we are made to be with God forever!

1. Science does not struggle to prove anything. This statement shows that you a have fundamental misunderstanding of what science even is.

2. Has your heart ever lied to you before? You ever feel that someone was your soul mate or close friend, just to have them stab you in the back?

3. Since you seem so eager to accept personal testimonials from internal organs I thought you might like to know that my heart told me that your heart is a liar.

It is said heaven is a perfect place, don't you want to go if it does exists?
Sure, I'd love to go there if it was real! Furthermore for my fantasy vacation I would like to add the following stops:

Santa's Workshop
Honah Lee
Candyland
The Isle of Misfit Toys
Atlantis
R'lyeh

LLH

[Marquis de Carabas]

Sure, I'd love to go there if it was real! Furthermore for my fantasy vacation I would like to add the following stops:

Santa's Workshop
Honah Lee
Candyland
The Isle of Misfit Toys
Atlantis
R'lyeh

LLH
You forgot Hoboken.

[kurious_kathy]

Who cares what is said. Why do you--and why should anyone else--believe it?
If there's one thing we all have in common is that we are God's creation made from the dust. He gave us the gift of life so we could have fellowship with Him. That's why we are here. I know God exists because He created us. Each one of us if living proof! Who was it that said I think therefore I am?
Life is not an illusion, it's a gift from God.

[ChristineR]

Well, the heart is a blood pump. If you have something planted in yours, that's bad.

Even accepting the symbolic meaning of "heart" it's still not clear what the verse means. So lets pretend that we all know what the verse means and move on.

So how can we decide whether something is "planted in our heart" or just something we imagined? The method I would look at would be universal or near universal acceptance. The desire of man to do something eternal, to "make a difference" seems to fit that criterion. So that's a reasonable interpretation of that verse.

But belief in the Christian God does not meet the criterion, so I really don't know where to go from there.

[Marquis de Carabas]

If there's one thing we all have in common is that we are God's creation made from the dust. He gave us the gift of life so we could have fellowship with Him. That's why we are here. I know God exists because He created us. Each one of us if living proof! Who was it that said I think therefore I am?
Life is not an illusion, it's a gift from God.
I would like to congratulate you. I have seen circular logic, of course. I'm not certain I've ever seen a logical Moebius strip before, though. Well done.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

You forgot Hoboken.

Believe it or not I almost added it...

LLH

[I less than three logic]

It is said certain things like eternity are planted inside the human heart, check it out.

Ecclesiastes 3: 10-12...
I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves.
God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good in one's lifetime;

I'm not wasting my life worshipping my God who is worthy.
Do you ever get bored using the same appeal to authority fallacy to support everything you say? There is a whole list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Logical_fallacies) of them to choose from; at least you could mix it up a bit.

There is no more reason to accept the Bible as an authority on the truth than there is for any other religions’ books. Since they contradict each other often, they can not all be true. With no logical reason to believe one over the other, all must be rejected as authorities on the truth. Therefore, quoting passages from any such book offers nothing in terms of supporting an argument, unless of course, the argument is over what is written in the book. You can choose to believe one over another if you like, but you can’t reasonably expect your belief alone to support the argument.

I’m afraid your strategy will never convince anyone but the extremely gullible.

[thaiboxerken]

I'm not wasting my life worshipping my God who is worthy.

Would you kill someone if your god told you to? Would you take your own child's life, if your god said to do so? Would you masturbate in public if your god told you to do it? Would you participate in group-sex if your god said to do so?

[wolfgirl]

It is said certain things like eternity are planted inside the human heart, check it out.Just because "it is said" in your fairy-tale book, doesn't make it true. "It is said" in The Iliad (another ancient text) that Apollo will help man in times of need if they sacrifice to him. Shall I kill an ox?

[Humphreys]

It is said certain things like eternity are planted inside the human heart, check it out.

Ecclesiastes 3: 10-12...
I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves.
God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good in one's lifetime;

I'm not wasting my life worshipping my God who is worthy.

How 'bout them Muslims then? Who planted their feeling of certainty?

If you say it was the Devil, how do you know your feeling of certainty isn't caused by some foul demon too, or maybe just some iffy meat?

[kurious_kathy]

I think we all must do our own homework to check out other religions in the world and see what they believe and why. So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.

And theirs is a works based theology which Chrisitanity is not. We know none of us can earn our way into heaven just by trying to be good. It's only being covered by the blood of the lamb that will redeem anyone. Who was the lamb? There is no douibt in my mind that Jesus was the Holy One who sacrificed Himself for us. Have you ever really tried to look at the man on the cross and understand why He did it?

[Marquis de Carabas]

I think we all must do our own homework to check out other religions in the world and see what they believe and why. So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.
You receive a provisional F on this homework assignment, pending the implementation of a lower possible grade.

[kurious_kathy]

You receive a provisional F on this homework assignment, pending the implementation of a lower possible grade.
Are you trying to tell me that they don't believe that's what part of their reward in heaven will be?

[wolfgirl]

So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.And if you asked a Muslim, they would say that you are following a false prophet named Jesus. Why can't you get this concept? It's really not that complicated! Saying that your god is better than someone else's god or that your religion is better than someone else's religion or that your holy book is better than someone else's holy book means nothing! Less than nothing! They feel the same way about their god and their religion and their holy book. They think they're right and you're wrong. You think you're right and they're wrong. All of you only have your own faith and "feelings" to go on, none of which are any more or less valid than any other. You prove nothing, except that you believe one thing and they believe another. Which, in many of our minds, lends LESS credibility to the idea that ANY religion can be true.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I think we all must do our own homework to check out other religions in the world and see what they believe and why. So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.

Book, chapter and verse?

LLH

[Marquis de Carabas]

Are you trying to tell me that they don't believe that's what part of their reward in heaven will be?
I'm trying to tell you they don't believe they follow a false prophet. That would be you injecting your beliefs about their beliefs into the situation. I'm also implying that if that is all you know about the Muslim faith, I'd wager you got it secondhand from a fellow Jesusphile and not from doing any honest inquiry into the religion itself.

[thaiboxerken]

There is no douibt in my mind that Jesus was the Holy One who sacrificed Himself for us. Have you ever really tried to look at the man on the cross and understand why He did it?

I used to be a christian myself, and I understand that you believe such things. I used to believe. However, the problem is that I grew up. I shed belief in those things just like I shed belief in Santa Clause. I'd be glad to see your evidence that supports your beliefs, though. That's one of many reasons as to why I am no longer a christian, the lack of evidence.

[wolfgirl]

I think we all must do our own homework to check out other religions in the world and see what they believe and why. So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.

And theirs is a works based theology which Chrisitanity is not. We know none of us can earn our way into heaven just by trying to be good. It's only being covered by the blood of the lamb that will redeem anyone. Who was the lamb? There is no douibt in my mind that Jesus was the Holy One who sacrificed Himself for us. Have you ever really tried to look at the man on the cross and understand why He did it?So far, what I know of the Christian faith is that they are following a false prophet named Jesus. They believe that only by being covered by the blood of the lamb will they be redeemed. That's just sick, if you ask me.

[atari24]

I think we all must do our own homework to check out other religions in the world and see what they believe and why. So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.

I'm not going to defend the muslim faith or any faith for that matter, but that is a really shallow assessment of the muslim faith.

[Pauliesonne]

Double standards are a funny thing........

[Aardvark]

My Muslim friends would not dishonour any Prophet of the Book.

They are always very reverential to all the prophets, from Moses through Jesus to Mohammed and always say the arabic of ' peace be upon him' after using the name of any prophet.
In their religion, the prophet Mohammed is the final law giving prophet and none who follow can make changes.

The Qu'ran can not be written in any other language than arabic and therefore has not suffered the fate of poor translations as is apparant with the Bible.

I will ask my Imam friend what the route of this vigin story is amongst both muslim and non muslim.

[Aardvark]

So far, what I know of the Christian faith is that they are following a false prophet named Jesus. They believe that only by being covered by the blood of the lamb will they be redeemed. That's just sick, if you ask me.

I am concerned about this lamb, how does it work for a vegetarian, would the juice of a watermellon work.

[hh-dragon]

And theirs is a works based theology which Chrisitanity is not. We know none of us can earn our way into heaven just by trying to be good.

James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

A bit of a contradiction there...

[I less than three logic]

And theirs is a works based theology which Chrisitanity is not. We know none of us can earn our way into heaven just by trying to be good. It's only being covered by the blood of the lamb that will redeem anyone. Who was the lamb? There is no douibt in my mind that Jesus was the Holy One who sacrificed Himself for us. Have you ever really tried to look at the man on the cross and understand why He did it?
Sacrificed himself, huh? That sure implies that it was his intention to be crucified, but how well does the logic follow such a story? Here are a few paragraphs from Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason on this subject, since I think he'd do a better job saying it than I would. Don’t worry, it is no longer considered blasphemous to read this. :)
The manner in which he was apprehended shows that he was not much known at that time; and it shows also, that the meetings he then held with his followers were in secret; and that he had given over or suspended preaching publicly. Judas could not otherwise betray him than by giving information where he was, and pointing him out to the officers that went to arrest him; and the reason for employing and paying Judas to do this could arise only from the cause already mentioned, that of his not being much known and living concealed.

The idea of his concealment not only agrees very ill with his reputed divinity, but associates with it something of pusillanimity; and his being betrayed, or in other words, his being apprehended, on the information of one of his followers, shows that he did not intend to be apprehended, and consequently that he did not intend to be crucified.

The Christian Mythologists tell us, that Christ died for the sins of the world, and that he came on purpose to die. Would it not then have been the same if he had died of a fever or of the small-pox, of old age, or of anything else?

The declaratory sentence which, they say, was passed upon Adam, in case he eat of the apple, was not, that thou shall surely be crucified, but thou shalt surely die — the sentence of death, and not the manner of dying. Crucifixion, therefore, or any other particular manner of dying, made no part of the sentence that Adam was to suffer, and consequently, even upon their own tactics, it could make no part of the sentence that Christ was to suffer in the room of Adam. A fever would have done as well as a cross, if there was any occasion for either.

[supercorgi]

Notice the last sentence says to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. So for starters any religion that is not based on knowing Jesus we know is false. There are others that have their doctrine messed up like Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons, but that's all I'm gona say about it for now. Everything outside of Christ leads to death! God help us all know the one who saves!
So Kathy, I see you've found yet another thread in which to do your preaching. How lucky for these folks. Are you going to be as good about listening and answering questions as you were in the Gospel thread? :rolleyes:

[wollery]

Seriously though Kathy, why do you pick that set of commandments to follow? There's more than one set (http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm) you know!Still no response. What's the matter Kathy? Kat got your tongue?

[SezMe]

kurious, don't let all these naysayers get you down. You go, girl. Your truths are self-evident. However, when you write:

So far what I know of the Muslim faith is that they are following a false prophet named Mohammad who said in heaven you will get a reward which in tells having lots of sex with virgins, that's just sick if you ask me.

I get all confused because you don't know the difference between "in tells" and entails. But, gosh, don't let one teensy error get in the way of all your bigger errors Truths.

Your loving servant,

SezMe

[arthwollipot]

I think Kathy really needs to answer Wolfgirl here. Let me restate the question.

Kathy, you believe that yours is the one true religion and all the others are false. Correct?

Moslems believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false.

Hindus believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false.

Catholics believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false.

Wiccas believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false (although in my experience the're a lot nicer about it than most of the others).

What distinguishes your religion from all the other religions in the world, the followers of which also believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false?

[kurious_kathy]

So far, what I know of the Christian faith is that they are following a false prophet named Jesus. They believe that only by being covered by the blood of the lamb will they be redeemed. That's just sick, if you ask me.Jesus is the true Son of God! And because of His sacrifice we can all be reconciled with God. It's a living relationship. Our God truely is alive and my love is true for Him. It's about relationship, not religion.

[arthwollipot]

What distinguishes your religion from all the other religions in the world, the followers of which also believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false?

[kurious_kathy]

What distinguishes your religion from all the other religions in the world, the followers of which also believe that theirs is the one true religion and all the others are false?
There are many things we could discuss about this question but I would like to share with you something my hubby posted to a Christian Forum today that I really think says a lot about a our relationship with Christ as Christians.
...In my personal and practical experience in discussions with hundreds, maybe thousands of people over the years, people of other religions (faiths) have not expressed to me that they have a relationship with the God or Gods they believe in. They just believe in the system of faith as defined in their religion. To them it is a religion, a belief system based on some deity, not a relationship based on love.

I my self do not tell people that Christianity is not a religion. I tell them Christianity is not about religion though. And that it is not about following rules, traditions and rituals. It is about sin and the need for a savior; and the focus is Jesus, the person he is, and entering into a relationship with him. If a person is a Christian for any other reason than they recognize sin is real, they are a sinner, and they need a savior, then anything that upsets the apple cart will bump them off and they will fall away. I am adamant when I say Christianity is in no way about religion, religion does not save anyone, only a relationship with Christ does.

Yes, technically Christianity can correctly be called a religion by the definition of the word. But who wants religion? I want a relationship with my savior who is a real person alive and well today this very moment. Big deal if I have a belief system that involves some deity. If it is only a belief system, I can be convinced I have been wrong in my belief. But if I have a relationship with a real person, no one can convince me that the person I know is real, and who I love and feel his love for me as well, is phony. No one can tell me my wife and kids are not real, in the same way no one can tell me Jesus in not real. Jesus in not a belief system, he is a real person I have a relationship with. He is not my religion. Do you guys get where I am coming from? Do you really want religion?

[Dioptre]

There's a thread in "Flame Wars" to continue this tangent, folks.

[Ducky]

There's a thread in "Flame Wars" to continue this tangent, folks.


Dioptre, let me apologize for you having to find out the hard way about kathy's bulls***.

For the record Kathy, you still haven't answered the question od which set of 10 commandments you chose and why. However, you can start a new thread for that.

Dioptre, please put us back on topic.

[Pauliesonne]

To Kathy, I say this;

I pity the fool who dosen't give straight answers!!!!!

[Dioptre]

Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.

[SezMe]

... I would like to share with you something my hubby posted ...

No one can tell me my wife and kids are not real ...
Having gender identity issues, Kathy?

[wollery]

Having gender identity issues, Kathy?She said quite clearly at the start of that post that she was quoting something her husband posted on another forum.

[blutoski]

Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.


Most re-conversions I've observed involve a personal experience. For example, John Cornwell spent almost twenty years as an activist secular humanist until he had a recurring dream about Catholicism that ended up coming true. He converted back to Catholicism after the experience.

This type of very personal experience is very difficult for skeptics to argue away without appearing ideological ourselves.

[thaiboxerken]

I doubt that he had such a dream. But, regardless, dreams are not evidence of any gods. I have to wonder if his recurrant dream was documented well before it "came true".

[Diamond]

Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.

Just so. The reasons people go for a particular belief system are rarely intellectual. Mostly they are emotional, a need to belong, a need for the transcendent, a yearning for inner peace or some such. The intellectualisation of that movement come later.

I didn't aim to become an agnostic. I ended up in this position through a process which was primarily intellectual. I didn't enter the process because I wanted an easy life without religious demands placed upon it.

Dioptre, at the moment what you don't believe may be a lot stronger than what you do believe. But that will change. You need to read some positive stuff, not just negativity.

[blutoski]

I doubt that he had such a dream. But, regardless, dreams are not evidence of any gods. I have to wonder if his recurrant dream was documented well before it "came true".

Regardless, it's an additional source of evidence, for those who personally experience such a thing, and just telling them: "I don't believe you," just makes skeptics look like they're in denial.




As to whether it was documented prior: yes, and this has already been evaluated by the authorities, as he was sued by the Vatican, accused of lying about his conversion story. He saw a therapist for these dreams, and his therapist's notes and his personal diay entries were made available. However, the possible interpretation is very broad, and could match many real-world situations. This is my evaluation.

[thaiboxerken]

Regardless, it's an additional source of evidence, for those who personally experience such a thing, and just telling them: "I don't believe you," just makes skeptics look like they're in denial.

Wrong, it's not denial to doubt such absurd claims.


However, the possible interpretation is very broad, and could match many real-world situations. This is my evaluation.

The interpretation is very broad. Why am I not surprised?

[SuperCoolGuy]

Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.

1) I'd say that it might be possible to hold some degree of a rational belief in Christianity. Now, can that belief by convincingly argued? I say no. But that doesn't mean you can't still believe in Christianity. It simply means that your belief is rooted in faith. If one is comfortable with faith, they can be Christian or any other religious belief.

2) I'd say it is possible to argue out of any belief due to the first point. And at some point in the argument, invariably, the word faith comes up. Faith cannot be argued. Faith is a decision made by the believer. It is a personal choice.

3) You will find this probably true of any religion. Arguing back in to a religious belief requires belief in things that can't be proven, hence faith.

Thus, I would argue that if religious conversion was based on logical and rational argument, there's little chance of going back to that religion.

I've seen people convert from Christianity to Islam because they viewed God as something that operates on a simple and basic premise, do good, and God rewards. Do bad, and God punishes. And some people like this.

I've seen people convert from Islam to Christianity because they felt God should be more personal and accessible. Just as Kathy argued when she quoted her husband on this thread. Some people like this.

And some deny either religion because, inevitably, they look at the sources and applied logical and rationale arguments. The key is not arguing the principles of the religion, because those principles can work for anyone based on personal preference and you are left inevitably arguing about the very nature of God in that case.

But, if faith is not good enough, then one might be encouraged to look at the source of a religion within historical context, applying logical and rationale arguments and analysis. And belief in a religion via this path is doomed to fail.

This is why faith, I think, is considered a virtue in many religions. Without it, you can't be a believer.

Whereas, in any other activity in society, faith is recognized as lazy and useless. You don't become an accountant because you have faith the numbers will work out. You don't make a good scientist if faith guides your approach to experimentation. An engineer that believes her contraption will work with out evidence (testing it) will find few buyers and/or endanger lives.

But religion answers the questions otherwise unanswerable:
Why are we here?
Where do we go when we die?
Is there a God, and if so, what are His qualities?
Faith will always have a place in this world so long as these questions are conclusively answered by old books written by unverified authors.

Dioptre, if you are comfortable with faith, to whatever degree, then I believe that you can be a believing Christian. Whether or not you want to base your beliefs in faith is up to you. But I see no way you can go back to Christianity by looking for evidence outside of religious texts.

The best evidence ends up being personal experience. Pretty much every KuriousKathy post reinforces this. If faith works for you, go for it.

Dioptre, if you don't feel satisfied with faith, if you want the conclusive evidence for any religion, I am personally not aware of it. Quite the contrary. However, that has been my own personal experience, and should be taken as such.

Good luck.

[chance]

This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.



Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?



Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?



Jesus H Christ! Do we have to?



I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.



I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?



I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?



Many people have been. However sometimes the spouses have played away.



Unless God told you that you were supposed to have it in the first place....



Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.


I sometimes wonder if a little bit of avarice isn't a good thingg after all.



They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.



The prickling in my heart is probably indigestion, not false guilt to fail to come up to impossible standards. It's clear that all religions are based on impossible standards and false guilt to propagate themselves.

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

Arhrrrrrr, “shiver me timbers!” they be more like guidelines, than actual rules, arhrrrrrrr, …. Arhrrrrrrr!

[arthwollipot]

Before I realised that I was an atheist, I believed that everyone had their own religion, with their own beliefs and requirements. Everyone's religion was equally valid.

Then I realised what a wishy-washy, wimpy attitude that was.

[ceo_esq]

Before I realised that I was an atheist, I believed that everyone had their own religion, with their own beliefs and requirements. Everyone's religion was equally valid.

Then I realised what a wishy-washy, wimpy attitude that was.

Regardless of a person's religious position, do you have more respect for them if they take the "objective" view rather than the "subjective" view?

[arthwollipot]

I would, if I had ever encountered anyone who took an "objective" view of religion.

[thaiboxerken]

I would, if I had ever encountered anyone who took an "objective" view of religion.

I know a few atheists that do.

[arthwollipot]

I know a few atheists that do.

Yes, but atheism is not a religion, so that doesn't count.

[ceo_esq]

I would, if I had ever encountered anyone who took an "objective" view of religion.

By that, of course, I meant simply a person taking the view that religious propositions are either objectively true or objectively false. This would be in contrast to the the attitude that my religious views are valid for me, yours are valid for you, etc. Does that make the question any clearer?

[ceo_esq]

Yes, but atheism is not a religion, so that doesn't count.

Just to clarify, it doesn't matter to my question that atheism is not a religion. It is a religious view - a viewpoint regarding matters of religion - in the broad sense in which I was using the expression.

[arthwollipot]

OK, I accept that.

[ceo_esq]

OK, I accept that.

So the "objective" view, in this sense, is that if Islam/Judaism/atheism/FSM/etc. is true for anyone, it's true for all. I agree with you (if I've understood you correctly) that that seems somehow to be a more intellectually respectable view than "wishy-washy" one you described earlier, although it also leads to some challenging issues.

[arthwollipot]

It is in the nature of religion for its adherents to believe that theirs is the one "true" religion, and all the others are wrong. I have more acceptance for someone who respects someone else's religious belief than someone who automatically thinks that they're a tool of Satan (or whatever).

[Roadtoad]

Well, as interesting as some of the derails can get, it's back to the main topic.

Dioptre, I'm going through a lot of what you are right now. I believe there's a god, I just can't prove there is. Bottom line for me is that I have to base my actions on what I know works, rather than what someone tells me works. The best evidence I have says I wasted my time by attending church, and my money by making tithes and offerings. Christianity has become so legalistic, so pharisaical, it's become what it sought to replace.

I'm not being "converted" to atheism, rather, I'm rejecting fantasies of some benign sacred Santa Claus who will set aside the laws of nature to bless me. I fail to see how that happens in real life. (I've other threads on this, so I won't continue a derail here. You can check them out at a more convenient time, Amigo.)

Ken made a valid point: Which God? If you read even half of what's out there about Christianity alone, you have some of the most diverse group of opinions to be found, and you can't get ANYONE to give you a straight answer about even the basic attributes of God. If that's the case, how can you tell the "god" you worship is the True God? That, quite frankly, makes things even more frightening, because all you need to do is look at the damage done by people like Eric Rudolph, and you can see there's a monumental disconnect between what most of us would consider basic decency, and what people like Rudolph do.

And this isn't even the half of it: Consider that the worst damage done to people takes place over the course of years, poisons administered in small doses week after week. It's forms of abuse, of hate, bred deeply into the hearts of those who choose "faith." Faith in what? Considering the divergent opinions I mentioned before, I ask again, what is it people are choosing to believe in? The "god" most folks choose to follow seems to mirror the prejudices and bigotries of the follower!

In other words, we're leading ourselves! What's the point in going to Church if you're not confronted or challenged to become a better person? If the Jesus you follow is some blonde dude with long hair who could easily be your next door neighbor, if he'd only get a haircut and drive a Lexus?

The big question comes to mind: What if he isn't real? What if we've been lied to? In the end, have we lived a better life by following this pattern of behavior, or would our lives have been better if we rejected it? Read through the bigotry of what's been posted before by our latest Christotroll, and the answer becomes obvious. It became obvious, and I wound up walking out from the Church. I'd had enough. I wanted to be kinder, I wanted to be more honest, I wanted to be a Good Man. I was none of the above. That provoked a change.

All I can say, Amigo, is keep your eyes open, and keep moving. In realizing what I'd missed out on, I discovered I had a lot of ground to make up. It's worth it.

[Roadtoad]

And one more thing: Kathy, it is the heighth of rudeness for you to have derailed this person's thread for your own selfish desires. That's not humble, that's prideful. It shows you to be a liar. I don't even think they'd allow this on your home board, much less in your Church. I think an apology is in order, and I mean a genuine one, without your usual justifications and meandering explanations of what a hard life you've had. Other people have had harder lives, and they've never been as vulgar as you have.

[Paulhoff]

re·li·gion
n.


<LI type=a>Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

kurious_kathy you got (good English) Religion

Paul

:) :) :)

[Beerina]

Regardless, it's an additional source of evidence, for those who personally experience such a thing, and just telling them: "I don't believe you," just makes skeptics look like they're in denial.

Dreams are the mind reviewing important activities from earlier in the day for the purpose of drawing inferences and associations, as well as reinforcing neural pathways of those stored memories via recalling them.

Why would one believe there is some god out there directing these dreams? That seems mighty strange.

[Beerina]

I would, if I had ever encountered anyone who took an "objective" view of religion.

I regularly presume The Bible is true, as well as common extra-biblical concepts, for the purpose of objectively demonstrating Yahweh is an evil SOB. If that's not objective, taking it at face value, then I don't know what is.

But here's someone who's done it a hundred times better (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm).

[elliotfc]

It is in the nature of religion for its adherents to believe that theirs is the one "true" religion, and all the others are wrong.

Sort of. I think most people will say that their own religion is closer to the mark than other religions...and I think most people also understand that their own particular religion is not in full possession of absolute objective theological truth. Some people in other religions, then, could be wrong about particular issues, some quite large, but could be right about other stuff.

I have more acceptance for someone who respects someone else's religious belief than someone who automatically thinks that they're a tool of Satan (or whatever).

So do most religious people in this particular culture of ours, methinks.

-Elliot

[arthwollipot]

Sort of. I think most people will say that their own religion is closer to the mark than other religions...and I think most people also understand that their own particular religion is not in full possession of absolute objective theological truth. Some people in other religions, then, could be wrong about particular issues, some quite large, but could be right about other stuff.

Not in my experience. OK, my experience is likely to be somewhat skewed, but the churchgoers I encountered believed that they were right and everyone else was a satan-worshipper. They believed that they had it absolutely right - they had the Word direct from the Holy Spirit and they had no doubts whatsoever. Pentacostals, you know.

Since then I admit I've met a number of much more moderate and reasonable Christians, and even some Moslems, Buddhists and Hindus. They were much more reasonable about it than the church-goers of my earlier experience.

[elliotfc]

Not in my experience. OK, my experience is likely to be somewhat skewed, but the churchgoers I encountered believed that they were right and everyone else was a satan-worshipper. They believed that they had it absolutely right - they had the Word direct from the Holy Spirit and they had no doubts whatsoever. Pentacostals, you know.

Thinking this way *ought* to lead to a very problematic existence. If you really believed that everyone else was a satan-worshipper...this would mean that if you go out to dinner, you'd be eating food cooked by satan worshippers. If you walked into the restaurant and someone held the door open for you, and you say thank you, you'd be saying thank you to a satan worshipper. If the waitress does a good job and you leave a nice tip, you're leaving a nice tip for a satan worshipper.

This might explain why some groups retreat from society to live in compounds. How could they not, they think that they're surrounded by satan worshippers? To that extent, it's a reasonable decision.
-Elliot

[arthwollipot]

Yeah, I got the impression that some of them were pretty unhinged, and that's why I stopped going to that particular church. Well - that was one of the reasons. There were others. But paranoid conspiracy-theories were right up there on my list of reasons.

[MLynn]

Dioptre, first welcome to JREF. I'm a little late to this thread, but I just want to assure you that questioning and struggling with your Christian faith is normal. You are not alone. I can say this because I am a Christian too; a misfit here, but welcomed nevertheless.

I examine my faith often. I've even tried to be an atheist a couple of times and just can't seem to do it. No one has to be in a hurry. I'm still trying to figure out what's what myself.

I hope you don't stay away because of KK. There are fine people here; intelligent, caring people who are willing to listen. Trolls happen, but don't let that intimidate you - they add entertainment value, at least for awhile...:)

Please lurk and post freely! Oh, and you can PM me if you want to.

[elliotfc]

Is it generally understood that people like Kathy are bad for this forum?

It appears to me that she brings out some good stuff from others that otherwise wouldn't be brought out.

Also, isn't she a good example of why it's good to be a skeptic?

Now, I can see if the forum was completely dominated by Kathy types. But surely it ain't.

-Elliot

[arthwollipot]

Possibly, but trolls like Kathy generally annoy people a lot as well, and that's not so good.

[elliotfc]

Possibly, but trolls like Kathy generally annoy people a lot as well, and that's not so good.

I find myself skimming her posts, and not reading them. Maybe that's why I'm not so annoyed with her. I guess I've got her stereotyped, and this allows me to not get to involved with her posts. To this extent I agree that she's a troll, at least from my perspective.

I think that believers in this forum should have the ability, some ability, to detach themselves from their belief. I don't think Kathy can do that. I'm not saying Kathy, if you're reading this, that you should compromise your beliefs, or keep them to yourself. But you're literally coming from left field, or I guess it's right field, and you've accepted a litany of things that no one else accepts. Meaning you can't be appreciated as you really are because we're not at your level, whether it's a high/low/or just plain different level. The alternative is that you're on a personal proselytic campaign, and I do think that is not what these forums are for.

-Elliot