Shaminism

[WanderinWTF]

Is Shaminism considered paranormal since they claim they can heal those that are sick? Or alter natural events.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Shamanism would no more be considered paranormal than would priesthood, or any other religous leader. However, any actions they claim to be able to perform would quite possibly fall under the paranormal heading.

That said, much of the success of shaman/medicine-men etc, is often a combination of things:
* placebo effect
* use of medicinal plants/etc with misunderstanding of why they work
* prediction of upcoming weather based on subconscious understanding of signals/predictors that occur in nature

[UrsulaV]

Definitely it would depend on the specific claim.

A shaman who claimed they could turn into a bear has got something we can test. A shaman who claims they can invoke the spiritual energy of the bear...errr...unless they can define what the heck that means, and some way that it can be tested, about all you can say is "Gee, that's nice."

A shaman who claims that through participation in a snazzy healing ritual, they can make somebody maybe feel better about their connection to the world and maybe decide they want to get well is basically a motivational speaker with better props--a shaman who claims that through participation in a snazzy healing ritual, they can cure cancer is making a testable paranormal claim.

Depends on your shaman, eh?

[LW]

Shamanism would no more be considered paranormal than would priesthood, or any other religous leader.

I disagree with your nitpick.

The defining feature of a shaman is that he or she can communicate with spirits.

This put shamanism well into realm of paranormality.

[* Edited to add: in traditional shamanism, that is. With new-age shamanism your mileage may vary.]

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I disagree with your nitpick.

The defining feature of a shaman is that he or she can communicate with spirits.

This put shamanism well into realm of paranormality.

[* Edited to add: in traditional shamanism, that is. With new-age shamanism your mileage may vary.]

*shrug* Fair enough, but I don't really view a shaman's claim to communicate with nature spirits any different than a priest's claim to communicate with the holy spirit.

And I was thinking neo-pagan shamanism when I wrote my original reply.

Either way, I think UrsulaV summed it up better than I did, with pointing to whether they are making a testable claim or not.

[WanderinWTF]

What about if someone could put some chinese traditional energy with the ways of shamanism. To heal someone and to also find where the pain is on someone without having to even touch this person.

If someone can do something that is paranormal do they need to explain where it comes from and how they do it.

[Anacoluthon64]

Here in South Africa the word "shaman" is used only infrequently, although we have a surfeit of them. In the past they were referred to as "witchdoctors" and presently as "sangomas," but by any name they are shamans in the traditional "LW-ian" sense in that they consult the spirits of ancestors. Their usual intention (and, in fact, their main defining claim) is that they seek diagnoses and cures for ailing patients from the ancestral spirits, clearly a paranormal (and testable) endeavour. The point here is that if "shaman" had come into common usage rather than the isiZulu name "sangoma," that name would have implicitly carried with it the subtext of the paranormal.

Consequently, it is necessary that one precisely stipulates what is meant by "shamanism" since its meaning varies contextually.

'Luthon64

[WanderinWTF]

Now also imagine this im an Empath.

[UrsulaV]

What about if someone could put some chinese traditional energy with the ways of shamanism. To heal someone and to also find where the pain is on someone without having to even touch this person.

If someone can do something that is paranormal do they need to explain where it comes from and how they do it.

If the claim is that they can determine the location of pain without touching the patient, then that's a testable claim.

A drawn out and gruelling explanation of how it's done, laced with words like "energy" (and probably chi, vibration, and maybe quantum too) will probably only make the testers want to gouge their own eardrums out, so I suspect it's better for everybody if the claimant just says "I can determine who is in pain and where on their body is in pain without touching them (or presumably asking them "Hey, does your knee hurt?")"

Then, if their claim is actually verified as something they can do better than chance, they can make their explanation, and having actually managed to pull off this amazing paranormal feat, their explanation will get a much more interested hearing, even if it's laced with quantum.

[strathmeyer]

If someone can do something that is paranormal do they need to explain where it comes from and how they do it.

No, they just need to describe what they can do. Please read http://randi.org/research/challenge.html and http://randi.org/research/faq.html

[Amapola]

Consequently, it is necessary that one precisely stipulates what is meant by "shamanism" since its meaning varies contextually.

'Luthon64

I agree. For example, a lot of what Navajo shamans do is simply put a person in harmony with what is going on. If there is a drought, the Navajo will not pray for it to rain, they will pray to get in harmony with the drought. Nothing supernatural about that. It is the most common sense approach of a religion that I am aware of.

[UrsulaV]

Now also imagine this im an Empath.

Hey, I've seen Star Trek, too!

Seriously, words like "empath" don't mean much by themselves--like "shaman" they're way too broad and used very differently in different cultures. What, specifically, do you MEAN?

[drkitten]

What about if someone could put some chinese traditional energy with the ways of shamanism. To heal someone and to also find where the pain is on someone without having to even touch this person.

Well, that IF is a key word there.

If they could manipulated "some Chinese traditional energy" in a measureable way at all, that would qualify as paranormal, at least for purposes of the JREF Challenge.

There's no need to mix-and-match your versions of mumbo-jumbo.

[WanderinWTF]

Shaman enter the spirit world as their spirit animal. I can take away bad dreams that haunt people all their lives!!!
Of course there is another twist, and that is when my ranking in Uriel's Army plays it's part.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Shaman enter the spirit world as their spirit animal. I can take away bad dreams that haunt people all their lives!!!
Of course there is another twist, and that is when my ranking in Uriel's Army plays it's part.

Go with the KISS principle. Pick one ability that you feel you have the best success rate with, and that is the most testable in a controlled environment. Come up with a protocol for testing and go for it. Don't worry about they why's and how's until you have proven the existence. Remember, it doesn't matter why the Invisible, Flying, Fire-breathing dragon is in my garage until we can show it is in my garage(1).


(1) Apologese to Mr. Sagan.

[WanderinWTF]

I can perform paranormal things right in front of anyone. Have you ever heard of encoded DNA messages? I have said enough for right now, I don't want to cause a system overload with to much Energy all at once.

[ChristineR]

If someone was standing behind a partition could you tell if they were on the left or right side of the partition? It could be a person in pain, then you would only have to tell if the painful foot was to the left or right of you.

[WanderinWTF]

What's the point in that, all I have to do is run my hand just a few inchs from the other person at point of pain or injurys that need energy shows right away. When my hand comes in contact with it.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What's the point in that, all I have to do is run my hand just a few inchs from the other person at point of pain or injurys that need energy shows right away. When my hand comes in contact with it.

Because, the more simple the test, the easier it is for the neutral, 3rd-party observers to cleary see if the test is a success or failure.

[ChristineR]

Well, what if someone with a painful hand sat behind a curtain with a cardboard tube sticking through it? The patient put his or her hand in a cardboard tube, or doesn't. Could you tell if the hand was there by putting your hand near the tube? The tube could be chosen so that your hand would be only an inch away from the patient's hand.

[WanderinWTF]

All the observer will need to do is have a medical record in front of them as well as a list of bumps and bruises that the patient might have endured recently. When my hand gets in the area of injury or in need of energy my hand shows it.

[ChristineR]

No emph, that is not a simple test because if you can see the bruises you can easily detect them. Likewise it is fairly easy to see evidence of broken bones. And finally as the patient sees your hand approaching his or her painful spots, he or she is likely to flinch.

So to do the test as you mention requires blindfolding the patient, then dressing them in special robes so that you cannot see their injuries, and taking precautions to keep you from touching the patient. Then it will require more than one patient, because one lucky guess is not enough for a good test.

The tests I described are much simpler, and you can do them yourself anytime.

[WanderinWTF]

Well, what if someone with a painful hand sat behind a curtain with a cardboard tube sticking through it? The patient put his or her hand in a cardboard tube, or doesn't. Could you tell if the hand was there by putting your hand near the tube? The tube could be chosen so that your hand would be only an inch away from the patient's hand.



Can you hold 2 magnets 1 inch apart in a cardboard tube without them coming together lets say as big as your hand? Pls don't waste my time nor fill up my thread with posts like this pls.

[ChristineR]

Can you hold 2 magnets 1 inch apart in a cardboard tube without them coming together lets say as big as your hand? Pls don't waste my time nor fill up my thread with posts like this pls.

Sorry, I do not understand your criticism. I could certainly detect the presence of a magnet in a tube using that technique. If you can detect the presence of a hand in a tube then you can win $1,000,000. Easily.

[UrsulaV]

Can you hold 2 magnets 1 inch apart in a cardboard tube without them coming together lets say as big as your hand? Pls don't waste my time nor fill up my thread with posts like this pls.

ChristineR's protocol is actually quite a good suggestion, and if you have any actual interest in actually proving your abilities, it might behoove you to be a bit more polite to people who are making a genuine effort to suggest ways that you could prove them.

Consider the following: In order to prove that you are determining this by a paranormal ability, and not just guessing because there's a bruise, you'll need to do the test without seeing the surface of the skin.

In order to prove that it's a paranormal ability, and you're not responding to cues by the person--tensing when you get near a painful spot, pupil dilation, subtle stuff like that, the patient can't watch you work.

Remember, in order to prove it's paranormal, you have to prove it's NOT just you responding to subtle visual clues, which is a trick that even horses can manage (remember Clever Hans!)

[Stellafane]

My neighbor's explanation of the shamanism he practices (see http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=55491) sounds pretty paranormal to me. Perhaps not in the testable, homeopathy/psychic/dowsing sense, but definitely in the spiritualism/ghosts sense.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think shamanism is for unskilled pinheads who can't play a class that requires actual practice.

Nothing says "training wheels" like a class that can melee, self heal, self resurrect, cast damage spells, use a druid-like travel form and can wear friggin chain-mail and use shields!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think shamanism is for unskilled pinheads who can't play a class that requires actual practice.

Nothing says "training wheels" like a class that can melee, self heal, self resurrect, cast damage spells, use a druid-like travel form and can wear friggin chain-mail and use shields!


Could be worse, could be Pallys. :p

[JollyRoger]

If you try hard enough you can debunk anything related to the paranormal.

[Hellbound]

If you try hard enough you can debunk anything related to the paranormal.

THis has, so far, been true.

Funny how this is not true when applied to well-tested, mainstream science.

[UrsulaV]

I think shamanism is for unskilled pinheads who can't play a class that requires actual practice.

Nothing says "training wheels" like a class that can melee, self heal, self resurrect, cast damage spells, use a druid-like travel form and can wear friggin chain-mail and use shields!

Dude, come over here and say that and I'll frost shock your sorry butt...*grin*

[blutoski]

Definitely it would depend on the specific claim.

I've come to the same conclusion: it's about the claim, not the title.

I'm a little crazy among skeptics in that I've tried to sort of create a system for categorizing claims.

I think there are only a limited number of actual claims that skeptics critique.

Woo-woos mix&match these claims into a narrative that's unique, but it's all the same little pieces thrown together in different combinations.

I've put my phylogeny here:
http://www.bcskeptics.info/resources/claims

Essentially, there are three claim "kingdoms": pseudoscience, supernatural, and pseudosecular.

These categories break down further, but you get the point.

I've been interested in feedback.

[Curnir]

What's the point in that, all I have to do is run my hand just a few inchs from the other person at point of pain or injurys that need energy shows right away. When my hand comes in contact with it.

Wow, that sounds great. Is it an instant heal or does it require several 'treatments'?

Does the person need to tell you where 'the point of pain' is or are you able to divine this yourself or is it a sort of cooperatin between the person and you, where you ask question like. "how does it feel here?"

Do you heal completely och is it just pain relief?

Can you diagnose maladies/defects/injuries with this energy technique?

If you can diagnose, would you be able to tell the differance between a congenital spinal injury and a mechanical spinal injury?

If you are able to heal, would you be able to heal spinal injuries?

Or just in short:

Show me!

[Ririon]

Can you hold 2 magnets 1 inch apart in a cardboard tube without them coming together lets say as big as your hand? Pls don't waste my time nor fill up my thread with posts like this pls.
In post #8? That was an unusually quick self-destruct... ;)

[Stellafane]

Shaman enter the spirit world as their spirit animal. I can take away bad dreams that haunt people all their lives!!!
Of course there is another twist, and that is when my ranking in Uriel's Army plays it's part.

You don't live in Vermont by any chance, do you?

[JollyRoger]

THis has, so far, been true.

Funny how this is not true when applied to well-tested, mainstream science.


Hypothetical speaking if the paranormal is a science onto itself, how would you explain one science with another??

[Hellbound]

Hypothetical speaking if the paranormal is a science onto itself, how would you explain one science with another??

IN reality (as opposed to hypothetically), the same way that chemistry can be explained with physics, and biology can be explained with chemistry, and astronomy can be explained with physics, and psychology can be explained by chemistry and biology.

There aren't "sciences", as you seem to think, except in that people specialize in certain areas that look at phenomena on certain levels within that area. The sciences all inter-relate; no science stands alone, they all have overlaps with other areas.

Besides, it doesn't even have anything to do with explaining the paranormal. So far, it's yet to be demonstrated to any reasonable degree of certainty.

[jond]

Hypothetical speaking if the paranormal is a science onto itself, how would you explain one science with another??

Isn't paranormal by definition NOT science?

[JollyRoger]

not to forget Neurology and everything we know about the human brain

[JollyRoger]

Isn't paranormal by definition NOT science?

is life at the bottom of the ocean not possible, because we did not know or understand it.

[petre]

Hypothetical speaking if the paranormal is a science onto itself, how would you explain one science with another??

I'll attempt to answer in the spirit I feel it was asked, and not derail into 30 posts discussing how we're going to define "science" in the discussion.

If the paranormal ever reproduces a single demonstrable claim, it isn't necessary to reconcile it with existing science other than noting it as an exception. It can be accepted as demonstrably true, given a specified situation, and still contradict behavior in other situations.

For example, theories in physics differ greatly depending on what scale you are working at (sub-atomic, inter-planatary, etc). Some things can be demonstrated to work in a certain way in one situation, and a completely different way in another situation, without any explanation for the difference. The key to getting it accepted as science is not that it reconciles with existing science, but that it can make a claim and back it up.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hypothetical speaking if the paranormal is a science onto itself, how would you explain one science with another??

Science is a process, not a thing. That said, a good example of what you are asking for would be the theory of evolution. It is a theory describing a specific biological/chronological process. However, it is not atomic in nature. It relies on geology, paleontology, chemistry and many other fields of study for its supporting evidence.

Extrapolating that, if ESP were shown to exist as a phenomena, it would then be incumbant upon scientists to observe, and describe how it:
* interacts with the brain (chemistry, biology, physiology)
* transfers information (physics)
* etc

[blutoski]

Besides, it doesn't even have anything to do with explaining the paranormal. So far, it's yet to be demonstrated to any reasonable degree of certainty.

Yes, I think that's the problem with a lot of paranormal research: It's a profession trying to explain something that's not demonstrated yet.

They're putting the cart before the horse.

It does explain why there are different, competing, contradictory explanatory systems: the repeatability is so low that there is no agreed-upon set of 'facts' to use as a starting-point.



My definition of healthfraud is: "Practice via hypothesis", and my impression is that paranormalism is very similar. They just skip the testing and data-gathering part, and go straight into a compelling narrative and practice accordingly.

[UrsulaV]

is life at the bottom of the ocean not possible, because we did not know or understand it.

Nope, but claiming one knows things about life at the bottom of the ocean and can manipulate said ocean life, prior to being able to find, test, and examine it, would have been an exercise in futility.

If, prior to bathyspheres and the like, I had said "There are giant pink aquatic elephants living in the trenches down there!" I would have been required to provide proof, and if I couldn't do so, my claims should and would have been dismissed as fanciful.

We do not know or understand the paranormal, and any claims made about it, if they cannot be observed or tested, are as useless and fanciful as my trench elephants.

[JollyRoger]

I'll attempt to answer in the spirit I feel it was asked, and not derail into 30 posts discussing how we're going to define "science" in the discussion.

If the paranormal ever reproduces a single demonstrable claim, it isn't necessary to reconcile it with existing science other than noting it as an exception. It can be accepted as demonstrably true, given a specified situation, and still contradict behavior in other situations.

For example, theories in physics differ greatly depending on what scale you are working at (sub-atomic, inter-planatary, etc). Some things can be demonstrated to work in a certain way in one situation, and a completely different way in another situation, without any explanation for the difference. The key to getting it accepted as science is not that it reconciles with existing science, but that it can make a claim and back it up.


looking at it from another point of view, and going out on a small branch (cant spell limb)
their are many thing science can not explain, taking it on step farther what science is try ing to explain is said to be older then science, some say that the grandfather of science or chemistry is alchemy (wow where am I going with this) perhaps one day it will be explained by science, but for know our science can not explain everything. perhaps like the shutter bug who kicks them selves for not having a camera at the right time in the right place to take a prise wining photo, science just was not around

[JollyRoger]

Nope, but claiming one knows things about life at the bottom of the ocean and can manipulate said ocean life, prior to being able to find, test, and examine it, would have been an exercise in futility.

If, prior to bathyspheres and the like, I had said "There are giant pink aquatic elephants living in the trenches down there!" I would have been required to provide proof, and if I couldn't do so, my claims should and would have been dismissed as fanciful.

We do not know or understand the paranormal, and any claims made about it, if they cannot be observed or tested, are as useless and fanciful as my trench elephants.


how would you know to look if no one make claims, science has yet to find proof but they are still looking..........why??? if its not real then the must be waisting their time and research funds, but yet the research go's on research into something that does not exist??

[drkitten]

looking at it from another point of view, and going out on a small branch (cant spell limb)
their are many thing science can not explain,

Definitely true.

But there are many "things" that science need not explain, because scientists typically only try to explain the things that really exist.

Science, for example, has no explanation for the invisible leprechaun that lives under my bed.

That's because there is no leprechaun living under my bed, visible or not. Some shoes, a dust-bunny or two, and probably a cat at any given moment -- but not leprechauns.

Science similarly doesn't explain how the One Ring extended Bilbo's life so dramatically, or how it made Sam Gamgee invisible outside the tower of Cirith Ungol.

That's because there is no One Ring, no Sam, and no Bilbo. They're fictional.

Simiilarly, there are no known paranormal phenomena that need explanation. So science doesn't bother to explain them.

[drkitten]

how would you know to look if no one make claims,

Because people wonder.

"I wonder what conditions are like near deep-sea volcanic vents?"

"I don't know, but we've got a bathysphere. Wanna go look?"

"Sure! --- Oh my god, what is that?"

if its not real then the must be waisting their time and reserch funds, but yet the reserch go's on reserch into something that does not exist??

If what's not real? No one is researching unreal things -- but the deep sea is certainly real, as are the vents....

[JollyRoger]

Similarly, there are no known paranormal phenomena that need explanation. So science doesn't bother to explain them.


so why all the research into something that does not exist???

[JollyRoger]

If what's not real? No one is researching unreal things ..


oh

[drkitten]

so why all the research into something that does not exist???

Because the reasearch is going into something that we know far too well exists -- human credulity and ignorance, coupled with fraud.

[JollyRoger]

Because the reasearch is going into something that we know far too well exists -- human credulity and ignorance, coupled with fraud.

I never made any money off it.

[drkitten]

I never made any money off it.

But you're still credulous and ignorant, and you've probably given other people money (aiding them in their fraud).

[kitakaze]

Science similarly doesn't explain how the One Ring extended Bilbo's life so dramatically, or how it made Sam Gamgee invisible outside the tower of Cirith Ungol.

That's because there is no One Ring, no Sam, and no Bilbo. They're fictional.*tears well up, sniffling* They're real in my heart you, you...UNGOLIANT-LIKE BEAST SUCKING THE LIGHT FROM MY WORLD!!

[JollyRoger]

But you're still credulous and ignorant, and you've probably given other people money (aiding them in their fraud).

well some see the paranormal as a form of entertainment, perhaps thats what they are paying for,

[JollyRoger]

*tears well up, sniffling* They're real in my heart you, you...UNGOLIANT-LIKE BEAST SUCKING THE LIGHT FROM MY WORLD!!


buy a flashlight

[kitakaze]

buy a flashlightYes, you're right. That would be much more stirring. Which reminds me...

well some see the paranormal as a form of entertainment,...the world over, we'd continue to have a fascination with it otherwise?

[ChristineR]

Actually, I don't think that there is that much paranormal research.

Paranormal research falls into two broad categories. First, there are some researchers who are genuinely interested in testing the paranormal, and are faced with an unending stream of negative results. Occasionally they get an anomaly or a cheat, and then they get let down when the experiment isn't replicated or the cheat is exposed.

These people usually give up sooner or later, unless they have some sort of need to expose frauds. Hence there isn't much of this sort of research left.

Then there are people who are determined to find paranormal activity even when it isn't there. These people mostly seem to misinterpret their data, like the EVP guys who need to use a recorder that shapes random noises to sound like voices, or Sheldrake's studies that show people know when they are being watched--but only when they are given some pretty big hints.

There is quite a lot of stuff in the second category, but it is scoffed at by most serious researchers.

The truth is that there has NEVER been a successful demonstration of paranormal activity (activity that could not be explained by accepted science) that was done under conditions where cheating was impossible. None, nil, nada, zip, zilch zero.

[Stellafane]

...their are many thing science can not explain...

True, but can you name me one thing that science can't explain, but non-science can explain better?

[kitakaze]

Or has explained better?

[JollyRoger]

heres something from class that I saved, thought it might be interesting.
sorry by punctuation sucks

Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things. There are as many reasons as there are believers. Some people might need a little extra fulfillment in their lives; others use magical beliefs to make themselves feel more important or more powerful (a grandiose delusion of sorts). While others use these pseudoscience to help them except things they cannot change, and there are those shady characters who would try using it to separate you from your money, or because it’s in style.

There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand. People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this? Out of 134 patients who used visualization 100 was still alive to tell this seemingly unbelievable tale. The average survival rate for their type of advanced cancer is 5%, or 7 out of 134. It raised the question if this method worked so well, why ain’t more people using it?

They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes. Whether it becomes a scientific reality or not, is another story. Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful, other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation. Some say if it sounds too good to be true it usually is (vary seldom an inaccurate statement) and no amount of money is going to change that. People who spend money on such thing have a reason, “the question” is the reasons valid, and are you really getting your money’s worth, or are you just buying snake oil from a fly by night vendor. Who in turn uses your money to separate more people from their life savings?

What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality; overlapping to form our society. Some depend on science while others use faith, still some choose to combine the two, and there are those who are oblivious to the whole concept. If modern science cannot explain it, perhaps it’s not real. However, if you consider that Alchemy (all-chemistry) is the grandfather of chemistry, and today’s science fact is yesterday’s science fiction perhaps there is something to all of this superstitious nonsense after all. The belief in Pseudoscience is seen for some as the belief in things such as Astrology, tarot cards, Astral projection (or as the army likes to call it Remote Viewing) mental telepathy, ESP, Witchcraft, and other types of paranormal nonsense. Some would even include Religion as a type of pseudoscience. They may be frighteningly accurate and at the same time very general (IE one belief or reading fits all). Whether there is actually more too all this then a means of entertainment and profit remains to be scientifically proven. In closing, I am reminded of quote from Phineas Taylor Barnum that may sum up this whole report “Theirs a Sucker Born Every Minute” and perhaps now we realize how easily we can be fooled.

[drkitten]

Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things.

And you'll notice that they don't explain electrons

or the laws of physics by such analysis.

People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this?

The result of this was an unreplicable result that no one outside of a few credulous and ignorant people take seriously as a "persistantly unsolvable puzzle to science."


They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes.

They do indeed say this. They're wrong.

Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful,

No, they haven't.

other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation.

This, however, they have been.

What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality;

No. Each of us lives in our own perception of reality, but reality exists, is shared, and is independent of what you percieve, think, or believe.

The big question remains -- what is there to explain? Science does not explain things that don't exist. If you think that an alternative medical treatment works, that doesn't mean that it's a puzzle for science to explain. The first question is whether or not it actually works, or if you believe in something that "just ain't so." Only if it actually works is there a puzzle.

So far, there is no paranormal to explain.

[JollyRoger]

So far, there is no paranormal to explain.

so if science can explain it its not paranormal, OK I can wait

[drkitten]

so if science can explain it its not paranormal, OK I can wait


Wait for what? You haven't shown me anything that science needs to explain. If you want scientists to explain to how how unicorn horn can neutralize poison -- first show me a unicorn and show me that its horn can cure poison.

[JollyRoger]

Wait for what? You haven't shown me anything that science needs to explain. If you want scientists to explain to how how unicorn horn can neutralize poison -- first show me a unicorn and show me that its horn can cure poison.


There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand.

wait for science to explain everything that today it can not.

[drkitten]

wait for science to explain everything that today it can not.

Unfortunately, no one else has an explanation for the mind and brain, either.

Waiting for scientists to give you a complete understanding of the human brain is a lot better bet than waiting for traditional Chinese doctors or shamans to give it to you. Despite a multiple thousand year head start, TCM and shamanism has produced less overall than science has in less than two centuries....

[JollyRoger]

Unfortunately, no one else has an explanation for the mind and brain, either.

Waiting for scientists to give you a complete understanding of the human brain is a lot better bet than waiting for traditional Chinese doctors or shamans to give it to you. Despite a multiple thousand year head start, TCM and shamanism has produced less overall than science has in less than two centuries....

and some of the medicine we use today comes from the plants and stuff they knew about for centuries

[Hellbound]

and some of the medicine we use today comes from the plants and stuff they knew about for centuries

Except we've identified the specific chemicals that produce the good effects, learned how to synthesize them and place them into delivery mechanisms that give a precise dosage, measured dosage curves against physiological response to get the maximum benefit while minimizing side effects, learned how the chemicals affect physiological changes, and taken this knowledge to develop new drugs and treatments far more effective than the best plants shamans and mystics had to produce. Then we've gone on beyond this to develop actual cures, because we look beyond plants that make us feel better into underlying phsyiology and actual causes of disease, and leanred how to remove those causes. We've developed preventative medicines that, combined with our treatments, have more than doubled human life spans since the days of the shaman. Infant mortatily rates are a bare fraction of what they were just 100 years ago, and even the 1900's rates are smaller than the rates under mystical mumbo-jumbo.

The various alternative and traditional medicines have not advanced beyond the point they started at, hundreds or thousands of years ago.

[JollyRoger]

hmm I am running out of replies, I am gonna retreat for now, and come back with some more interesting brain food latter.

[UrsulaV]

and some of the medicine we use today comes from the plants and stuff they knew about for centuries

And some of the medicine we used today, we use to treat people who've tried self medicating with folk remedies and half-killed themselves.

There was a case about a decade back in the Hmong community in St. Paul where I lived, where a student at my college analyzed a folk remedy her grandmother had given her. Turned out to be made partially of powdered lead--not exactly healthy! And yet, it's a widely used folk remedy in that community, with the end result that a whole bunch of kids have gotten sick from lead poisoning.

Just because it's a folk remedy people have been using it for centuries doesn't mean it's automatically good for you. In a number of cases, it doesn't do anything, and in some cases it'll kill you.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000165.htm

[WanderinWTF]

Wow, that sounds great. Is it an instant heal or does it require several 'treatments'?

Does the person need to tell you where 'the point of pain' is or are you able to divine this yourself or is it a sort of cooperatin between the person and you, where you ask question like. "how does it feel here?"

Do you heal completely och is it just pain relief?

Can you diagnose maladies/defects/injuries with this energy technique?

If you can diagnose, would you be able to tell the differance between a congenital spinal injury and a mechanical spinal injury?

If you are able to heal, would you be able to heal spinal injuries?

Or just in short:

Show me!


When I do this I just need to move my hand across the person's body. When I reach an area the space between my hand and their body heats up a whole lot, so they don't jerk. I never tried doing anything with spines. When it comes to me using lots of heat I like to use water also it seems to help a whole lot.

[Anacoluthon64]

When I do this I just need to move my hand across the person's body. When I reach an area the space between my hand and their body heats up a whole lot, so they don't jerk. I never tried doing anything with spines. When it comes to me using lots of heat I like to use water also it seems to help a whole lot.

It would be more helpful if, instead of describing to us the details of your methods, i.e. the how, you said clearly what you think you are able to achieve through them (the what) and also how successfully you believe yourself to be. You might say something similar to the following example:

"I can reduce the pain and swelling of a person's sprained ankle, elbow or wrist by moving my hand over the painful/hurt area for about five minutes without actually touching it and without giving any other treatment. If I so treat 20 patients with such a problem, at least 17 of them will feel better."

Such a statement must come from you. It is unreasonable to expect, as you seem to, that the forum members do so for you on the basis of the clues you've dropped here and there in your posts. So far, they have bent over backwards, trying to help you help us understand what you are trying to say here.

A bit more clarity, please emph.

'Luthon64

[WanderinWTF]

In one patient I increased blood flow as well as brought down swelling. Also I regenerated flesh, making it grow over where it is needed. I havn't done any sprained ankles, however every time someone comeplained of a certain musscle or tightness in back, neck, shoulder even arm it would go away almost instantly.

[strathmeyer]

In one patient I increased blood flow as well as brought down swelling. Also I regenerated flesh, making it grow over where it is needed. I havn't done any sprained ankles, however every time someone comeplained of a certain musscle or tightness in back, neck, shoulder even arm it would go away almost instantly.

Regenerated flesh? This is an amazing scientific breakthrough. Why haven't you told anyone? How come you haven't been in the news and surrounded by doctors how want to replicate your results? How come nobody has ever heard of you?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

In one patient I increased blood flow as well as brought down swelling. Also I regenerated flesh, making it grow over where it is needed. I havn't done any sprained ankles, however every time someone comeplained of a certain musscle or tightness in back, neck, shoulder even arm it would go away almost instantly.

Then I will reiterate my above post. Pick the one thing that you have the highest success rate with treating, and is most conducive to being tested in a controlled manner; write up a protocol, and submit and application.

[WanderinWTF]

Then I will reiterate my above post. Pick the one thing that you have the highest success rate with treating, and is most conducive to being tested in a controlled manner; write up a protocol, and submit and application.

It's hard to find people with the same thing they are dealing with. When I succeed with something I move on to something harder and differant and focus on that till I accomplish it.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It's hard to find people with the same thing they are dealing with. When I succeed with something I move on to something harder and differant and focus on that till I accomplish it.

By not trying to reproduce your success in an observed, controlled environment you are doing a disservice to the entire medical community. If you can do what you claim to be able to do, it is vital that it be observed, confirmed, and studied so as to provide new information into the understanding and treatment of the human body.

[WanderinWTF]

By not trying to reproduce your success in an observed, controlled environment you are doing a disservice to the entire medical community. If you can do what you claim to be able to do, it is vital that it be observed, confirmed, and studied so as to provide new information into the understanding and treatment of the human body.

How do I do this then? Do I contact a scientist?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

How do I do this then? Do I contact a scientist?

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#4.1

4.1. How do I apply?

Fill out the application form (strictly adhering to the Challenge rules), sign it before a Notary Public, and mail it in to the JREF.

At present, a JREF employee by the name of Jeff Wagg is handling the application correspondence. Please don't send it straight to Randi, as he will not handle it personally. Sending it to him will only delay the process. Your application will be processed as time allows, but currently there will be a delay as Mr. Randi recovers from recent surgery.

It is important that the application form be filled out in proper, understandable English. The people at the JREF who will be going through the application process with you are only guaranteed to be fluent in English. The hardest part of the application process will be refining your claim, and so it is vital that both sides understand each other as clearly as possible. The JREF suggests that foreign applicants who are not fluent in English consult a translator when composing their claim letter. Otherwise, the process may take months longer than it has to.

The Challenge application, once signed by James Randi, is a legally binding contract between yourself and the JREF.

4.2. What should I do before I apply?

Depending on the nature of your claim, this could be a grueling, stress-filled process. Although the JREF wants you to have everything reasonable in proving your claim, they will not suffer months of endless negotiations with an applicant who seems unwilling to accept the methods of rational inquiry. Remember, it's not a contest; it's a challenge. This isn't going to be like taking a test. This is going to be like going to court. The onus of PROOF lies entirely with you, so you must be prepared to present it properly. After all, there's a million bucks at stake.

Make sure you are healthy. Get both a physical and mental check-up. Many people who claim to have paranormal powers are, sadly, suffering from an advanced state of delusion. That isn't to say that you are, but it's a hypothesis that may be raised during the application process. So, be prepared for this in advance, especially if your claim is extremely remote by reasonable standards.

This next step is very important, because it will be the first big hurdle you will face:

Tell your physician and/or psychiatrist that you have a paranormal ability and that you plan on demonstrating your paranormal ability in front of a team of observers, and consider heeding his/her advice.

The reason that this is a big hurdle is this: you should trust your physician/psychiatrist; they're on your side, after all. If you cannot convince them that applying for the Challenge is a good idea, you won't stand a chance against people you don't trust and who are not on your side.

After you are sure you are healthy and you have told your doctors about your intentions, make sure you can actually do the thing you will be claiming you can do in the application. If you know your ability is based on a trick or deception, stop right here and don't apply. Don't lie to yourself.

If you are sure you are not lying to yourself, find someone you know who is a reasonable, scientific sort and talk to him about your ability. Ask him to be as unfriendly and skeptical as possible. Then, demonstrate your proposed claim to him. This is the second big hurdle. If you can convince a brutally honest friend that you can do something paranormal, then keep going. Otherwise, stop; you will have no chance convincing the JREF's investigators.

Make sure you can reliably perform this ability within your claimed limits. Make sure that standard things you would expect in the challenge, such as the presence of skeptics, or a physical object near or between you and the thing you want to affect, don't affect your ability. If you can't read someone's mind when there's a skeptic nearby, or you can't see through a blindfold when there's a piece of cardboard between you and the object you are supposed to be able to see, then don't apply. These are just the sorts of things you will be subjected to during the test.

When you have done all these things:

* after you have talked to a doctor,
* after you have done a lot of soul-searching about your ability,
* after you have convinced a skeptical, discerning friend who won't just nod and agree with everything you say, and,
* after you are sure you can overcome any obstacle the testers could possibly throw at you:

...THEN go ahead, fill out the Challenge application, and send it in.

You should also know that if your claim is extremely "far-fetched" (such as one applicant who claimed that he could create "gaseous balls of light" via the power of his mind), you will most likely be asked to provide three (3) notarized affidavits from persons claiming to have witnessed this phenomenon before the JREF will accept your application for processing. (See 4.8 for further information on the JREF's requirements for acceptance of notarized affidavits)

4.3. What should I expect during the application process?

You should expect a lot of (written) communication between yourself and the JREF. You should also expect to do a bit of traveling for the actual test, unless you happen to live in an area with an established skeptical group or expert, or in close proximity to a University that might agree to assist both yourself and the JREF in testing your claim.

Also, if your claim seems extraordinarily implausible (such as: "I can place my thoughts within the minds of others"...or, "I can make lights shoot out of the top of my head"), you will more than likely be asked to submit three (3) notarized affidavits from professional individuals — doctors, lawyers, professors...no janitor, dishwashers or busboys — stating that they have witnessed this phenomenon and can offer no rational explanation for it. In fact, if you have such a claim and wish to see the application process expedited, don't wait to be asked; provide it along with your application. (See 4.8 for further information on the JREF's requirements for acceptance of notarized affidavits)

[petre]

How do I do this then? Do I contact a scientist?

It will be easier to gain the interest of a scientist if you are able to make a clear claim of something you can demonstrate repeatedly. There simply is little else to do (whether your goal be scientific study or applying for the JREF challenge) until that first task is accomplished. It is not important that the claim be amazing, like "I can cure all disease". All that is required is that it is repeatable, and that there can be no mundane explanation for it.

Arkan_Wolfshade's quoting of section 4.2 is also quite helpful.

[ChristineR]

If you can pass my cardboard tube test under the auspices of the JREF you will probably find lots of people who are willing to let you practice with their sprained ankles--not to mention fame and fortune. That's one of the purposes of the prize--to find the people making scientific breakthroughs among all the questionable stuff and fraunds.

[WanderinWTF]

Yes, tyvm Arkan for the help. I just don't like doctors and court. I can do so many things and Im learning new things each day. My goal is to help everyone in the world.

[Anacoluthon64]

In one patient I increased blood flow as well as brought down swelling. Also I regenerated flesh, making it grow over where it is needed. I havn't done any sprained ankles, however every time someone comeplained of a certain musscle or tightness in back, neck, shoulder even arm it would go away almost instantly.

I see.

That little italicised piece in my earlier post was an example of the type of statement from you that would allow us all, including you, to move ahead. It was not intended to convey actual specifics, such as ankles, elbows or, for that matter, severely calcified ganglia. As I said, it was merely an example to illustrate the type of statement.

And a statement of the required kind is still not forthcoming from you.

Once you have decided which of your various magnificent abilities you are best at and you make the aforementioned statement, the JREF will surely be happy to test you according to a mutually agreed-to protocol. Passing the test means that it is certain that you can do what you say you can.

Scientists will then beat each other up trying to get to you first. Many of them would then likely experience your talents firsthand.

'Luthon64

[Edit: Curses! I'm struggling along with a slo-o-o-o-w connection here. Apologies for posting essentially the same info contained in others' prior posts]

[Mojo]

My goal is to help everyone in the world.In that case I would suggest that you undertake some proper reseach into whatever it is you can do, so that the technique can be properly explained and taught to others. "Everyone in the world" is rather a lot of people for one person to be helping personally.

[WanderinWTF]

How about if I can generate a lot of energy from myself like a perpetual motion machine. Can this be tested?

[Mojo]

How about if I can generate a lot of energy from myself like a perpetual motion machine. Can this be tested?What form does this energy take? How could this energy be observed and measured?

And how do you generate it?

[WanderinWTF]

I would think that it's a real hot energy. Is it possible for the tempature of a small pool to rise with someone in it?

[Mojo]

I would think that it's a real hot energy. Is it possible for the tempature of a small pool to rise with someone in it?Certainly, if the water in the pool is at below body temperature, but this is not necessarily paranormal. What sort of temperature increase are you talking about?

[WanderinWTF]

when ever I do anything i bring a whole lot of energy inside of me and hold it sometimes inbetween my hands

[Ririon]

I would think that it's a real hot energy. Is it possible for the tempature of a small pool to rise with someone in it?
Put your hand and a thermometer in a bowl of water. When the thermometer shows more than 40 C (104 F), take two aspirin and post your results. :)

[WanderinWTF]

Would it matter how high the water is to begin with? Just as long as it is under 104 right

[Ririon]

Would it matter how high the water is to begin with? Just as long as it is under 104 right
Just as long as you're not cheating. :) This is a simple way of measuring how much heat energy comes out of your hand. It has very few complicating factors. Just make sure that there are no heat sources other than your hand, and as long as you don't have a severe fever, this will do nicely.

[WanderinWTF]

can I wear a ring? And switch hands or use both hands?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Would it matter how high the water is to begin with? Just as long as it is under 104 right

A simpler test could be to take a baseline reading of the surface temperature of your hands (back and palm) using an IR thermometer, then perform your feat, then take another pair of readings.

[Ririon]

can I wear a ring? And switch hands or use both hands?
It's your bowl of water. Use your foot with 5 toe-rings if you want to. The point is to measure your "shaman energy" in some way. Simple demonstrations using common household items should be easy to make into million-dollar challenge tests if the powers are real and "unexplained by science".

[WanderinWTF]

What about my body, could that be done also? Or can the amount of energy be tested in water?

[UrsulaV]

What about my body, could that be done also? Or can the amount of energy be tested in water?

You can certainly use your body, although it'll take longer and you'll need a bigger bowl.

Start simple, is my advice. If it turns out you can actually raise the temperature of a bowl of water above normal body temperature, with your hands, then get crazy and complicated. But for now, this is an incredibly simple test you can do at home.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What about my body, could that be done also? Or can the amount of energy be tested in water?

Water is good for testing the amount of energy released over time:
http://www.science-projects.com/HeatCapacity.htm

"a calorie is the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water from 14.5 to 15.5 degrees centigrade"
http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/bc/ahp/BE/Investigations/BE.Q1.MM.html

The IR thermometer is good for testing the changes in surface temp of the skin at a point in time.

[Ririon]

What about my body, could that be done also? Or can the amount of energy be tested in water?
Keep it small, easy and simple.

[WanderinWTF]

It talks about calories on that site Arkan. Do you know about how many calories there are in a pound stored in our bodies?

[Ririon]

It talks about calories on that site Arkan. Do you know about how many calories there are in a pound stored in our bodies?
Does it matter? More than enough to make a bowl of water boil.

[Mojo]

when ever I do anything i bring a whole lot of energy inside of me and hold it sometimes inbetween my handsBy "when ever I do anything" do you mean whenever you use you "healing" powers, or is producing this energy just something you do all the time? In other words, can you turn the energy generation on and off?

[WanderinWTF]

Yup I gather energy. There has been times when I do this and lose anywhere between 5 and 10 pounds in the matter of minutes.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yup I gather energy. There has been times when I do this and lose anywhere between 5 and 10 pounds in the matter of minutes.

That itself would be easily testable then.

[petre]

That itself would be easily testable then.

Indeed, I think emph has gotten some good advice on measuring several claimed effects. It would probably now be advantageous to focus on them and determine if any of the effects are measurable. Identifying further effects would probably not be of any help, unless it is discovered that the previously mentioned ones do not have measurable results.

[WanderinWTF]

However I do perform this in water. In a jacuzzi

[Curnir]

However I do perform this in water. In a jacuzzi

Any special brand of jacuzzi?

Does it have to have a 'jill-jet'?

Does the weight return or is it still gone when you get out of the water?

[WanderinWTF]

Any special brand of jacuzzi?

Does it have to have a 'jill-jet'?

Does the weight return or is it still gone when you get out of the water?

I don't know the brand of jacuzzi it is. Im not sure what a jill-jet is. I weigh myself b4 i get in. I weigh myself after i get out. I have been able to keep my weight down since I started doing this.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I don't know the brand of jacuzzi it is. Im not sure what a jill-jet is. I weigh myself b4 i get in. I weigh myself after i get out. I have been able to keep my weight down since I started doing this.

Most likely, water loss through sweat.

[WanderinWTF]

Most likely, water loss through sweat.


even within 10 minutes.

[Ririon]

I don't know the brand of jacuzzi it is. Im not sure what a jill-jet is. I weigh myself b4 i get in. I weigh myself after i get out. I have been able to keep my weight down since I started doing this.
If you know how to lose ten lbs in ten minutes, you are a millionaire already. It doesn't even have to be true strictly speaking. Get your book out there... ;)

Seriously, you have several ideas here that will give you an easy million. If it works half as well as you seem to imply, of course.

[WanderinWTF]

Ya but what if I need to be in the water with people for them to lose weight. Also what if they don't need to do anything if I can put a fair amount of energy in the water that they are in. Could this have an effect on how to heal people or give them the energy they are lacking due to old age or illness?

[Curnir]

Ya but what if I need to be in the water with people for them to lose weight. Also what if they don't need to do anything if I can put a fair amount of energy in the water that they are in. Could this have an effect on how to heal people or give them the energy they are lacking due to old age or illness?

How much water did you drink befor getting into the jacuzzi?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ya but what if I need to be in the water with people for them to lose weight. Also what if they don't need to do anything if I can put a fair amount of energy in the water that they are in. Could this have an effect on how to heal people or give them the energy they are lacking due to old age or illness?

Don't worry about "Why" or "How" yet. Worry about reproducing the effect under controlled, observed conditions.

[WanderinWTF]

How much water did you drink befor getting into the jacuzzi?


not much at all. When im done it sometimes gets to me so much that I feel so ill.

[Ririon]

Ya but what if I need to be in the water with people for them to lose weight. Also what if they don't need to do anything if I can put a fair amount of energy in the water that they are in. Could this have an effect on how to heal people or give them the energy they are lacking due to old age or illness?
What if it doesn't work at all? Come on, impress us: Do the simple little water bowl test. I dare you...

[WanderinWTF]

The water bowl test is to small. I need to use my whole body to perform this.
the jacuzzi I do this in is square I wish i could try this in a round one.

[UrsulaV]

The water bowl test is to small. I need to use my whole body to perform this.


Do you own a bathtub? Fill it with cool water, pop your thermometer in, plunk yourself down, and do your thing.

[WanderinWTF]

Do you own a bathtub? Fill it with cool water, pop your thermometer in, plunk yourself down, and do your thing.

Won't work can only flop around theres no way for me to hold the energy.

[Ririon]

The water bowl test is to small. I need to use my whole body to perform this.
the jacuzzi I do this in is square I wish i could try this in a round one.
Sounds like an excuse to me. What can you do? Remember: A simple little demonstration is what you want.

[jond]

I don't think we're ever going to get a straight answer from our Emph friend as to what he actually can do. We've seen many claims, but no desire to actually prove his claims. And lots of excuses too.

At least he hasn't yet grown hostile towards kind people trying to give him solid advice.

[WanderinWTF]

I can do pretty much anything possibilities are endless. I won't ever try to get hostile what so ever that's the last thing I want. Im here for educational purposes only seems to me that there are verry smart people here. I have no limitations as to the things I can do or the state of meditation I can put myself in.

[Ririon]

I don't think we're ever going to get a straight answer from our Emph friend as to what he actually can do. We've seen many claims, but no desire to actually prove his claims. And lots of excuses too.

At least he hasn't yet grown hostile towards kind people trying to give him solid advice.
Unless you count this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1627195&postcount=23). I don't have high hopes for straight answers, either. A bit of rambling, but short ramblings, thankfully. I'll give him that. :)

[Ririon]

I can do pretty much anything possibilities are endless. I won't ever try to get hostile what so ever that's the last thing I want. Im here for educational purposes only seems to me that there are verry smart people here. I have no limitations as to the things I can do or the state of meditation I can put myself in.
You have many limits when it comes to simple demonstrations, it seems.

[WanderinWTF]

Unless you count this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1627195&postcount=23). I don't have high hopes for straight answers, either. A bit of rambling, but short ramblings, thankfully. I'll give him that. :)


curtains, tubes, someone hiding sounded like a magic trick to me.

[Ririon]

curtains, tubes, someone hiding sounded like a magic trick to me.
It may have. Consider for a moment what you sound like. So to get back on track: What simple little demonstration of your powers can you do?

[WanderinWTF]

Im off to gather some energy, meditate.

[jond]

I can do pretty much anything possibilities are endless. I won't ever try to get hostile what so ever that's the last thing I want. Im here for educational purposes only seems to me that there are verry smart people here. I have no limitations as to the things I can do or the state of meditation I can put myself in.

Glad you're not planning to get hostile. Most of the claimants I've seen here do.

Meanwhile, despite telling us you've no limitations, you've just given us two limitations that keep you from testing your abilities. Suggestion: try some of the recommended tests, the bowl of water and the tub. If nothing happens, then ask yourself why. If you can only do your weight loss trick in one specific hot tub, and not in a regular tub, then what's happening in that hot tub that's different? Is it you or is it the tub?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

curtains, tubes, someone hiding sounded like a magic trick to me.

No, it's called double-blinding. Very useful in checking the veracity of claims that could be influenced by visual cues, etc.

[drkitten]

I can do pretty much anything possibilities are endless.

in that case, simply pick something.

Levitate.

Turn yourself yellow like a chameleon.

Tell me what's inside a sealed box.

Hold a cup of coffee in your hand and bring it to the boiling point.

Tell me who the next telephone call I receive will be from.

Look at me and tell me my cholesterol level.

Divide by zero.

Anything.

The Randi Challenge isn't about finding out who can do the most different weird things. It's about finding someone -- anyone -- who can do anything weird.

[UrsulaV]

Won't work can only flop around theres no way for me to hold the energy.

Okay. You've gone from "I need my whole body" to "there's no way for me to hold the energy."

This is starting to sound like making excuses to avoid taking any test--for somebody who's powers have "endless possibilities" you appear to be awfully limited. But let's try one more time.

Do you need to stand up to make this work? What do you need to do with your body to "hold the energy"? I don't mean, what does the energy do--I don't care--but what position or action do you need to take with your body in order to make this work?

[WanderinWTF]

Glad you're not planning to get hostile. Most of the claimants I've seen here do.

Meanwhile, despite telling us you've no limitations, you've just given us two limitations that keep you from testing your abilities. Suggestion: try some of the recommended tests, the bowl of water and the tub. If nothing happens, then ask yourself why. If you can only do your weight loss trick in one specific hot tub, and not in a regular tub, then what's happening in that hot tub that's different? Is it you or is it the tub?


Like I said I need to move around and gather energy and hold it. It's like a whirlwind effect as to how I gather energy. In a tub I can stand up.

[Ririon]

Like I said I need to move around and gather energy and hold it. It's like a whirlwind effect as to how I gather energy. In a tub I can stand up.
So if you got a big circular pool, or whatever you want. What measurable and impressive phenomenon will happen? Will the water get really hot? Will you get 10 lbs lighter in 10 minutes? Will you flop around like a whirlpool? All of the above?

[WanderinWTF]

Who knows I never tried a round one b4 tyvm for the idea. When hurcanes occur what happens to the water does it go in a fast current in a certain way maybe even a circle type current by any chance and heat up.

[Ririon]

Who knows I never tried a round one b4 tyvm for the idea. When hurcanes occur what happens to the water does it go in a fast current in a certain way maybe even a circle type current by any chance and heat up.
Ehm.. The round one was your idea in the first place, but you're welcome. So you have no idea if you can do anything. :confused: Didn't you just claim to develop heat and lose weight?

[strathmeyer]

Won't work can only flop around theres no way for me to hold the energy.

What energy?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Then I will reiterate my above post. Pick the one thing that you have the highest success rate with treating, and is most conducive to being tested in a controlled manner; write up a protocol, and submit and application.

<insert broken record noises here>

[WanderinWTF]

Square jacuzzi is better than round, I relized that now.

[WanderinWTF]

Arkan how hot would someone need to get to actually have calories or water evaporate from their body?

[Ririon]

Arkan how hot would someone need to get to actually have calories or water evaporate from their body?
You do not get a million dollars just for taking a bath. Are you kidding?

[Dredred]

This is an interesting experiment, Emph. I hope you'll tell us about the results.

A simpler test could be to take a baseline reading of the surface temperature of your hands (back and palm) using an IR thermometer, then perform your feat, then take another pair of readings.
I think with practice (e.g. biofeedback methods) it's possible to learn to increase the bloodflow towards (and thus raise the skin temperature of) any body part just by concentrating on it. Nothing paranormal about that. That effect should be taken into account before qualifying the possible results of quoted experiment as paranormal.

[WanderinWTF]

http://www.activatemydna.com

http://www.crystalinks.com/11.11.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/children.html


People don't take a bath and lose 5 pounds in less than 15 mins. Maybe these links will help some of you that are interested understand a little more about myself.

[WanderinWTF]

squre is better cause it cause many differant energies{ripples} to form on their own and stay flowing. I think in a round pool it would create one big one.

[Ririon]

http://www.activatemydna.com

http://www.crystalinks.com/11.11.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/children.html


People don't take a bath and lose 5 pounds in less than 15 mins. Maybe these links will help some of you that are interested understand a little more about myself.
So your earlier posts suggesting that you lost weight by taking baths were lies? No links, thank you. I would rather hear from you. What can you do? A tiny little demonstration of your unlimited powers. Is that too much to ask for?

[WanderinWTF]

I just lost 5 pounds while I was away. In about 15 minutes like I said. Also to take into consideration this is a educational forum, therefore I think that I don't really need to tell what I Have done or what I Can do but rather what I am working on at the moment. I love evoulution!!!

[WanderinWTF]

So your earlier posts suggesting that you lost weight by taking baths were lies? No links, thank you. I would rather hear from you. What can you do? A tiny little demonstration of your unlimited powers. Is that too much to ask for?


I never once said i lost weight takin baths I said i use a important element in healing people as well as myself. How do you think I regenerate skin, when i put my hand over wounds in that manner it just feels real hot might even burn the flesh that is open. With water it keeps the wound cool. Keeping the ying-yang even, cause not everyone can do this.

[Ririon]

I just lost 5 pounds while I was away. In about 15 minutes like I said. Also to take into consideration this is a educational forum, therefore I think that I don't really need to tell what I Have done or what I Can do but rather what I am working on at the moment. I love evoulution!!!
I weighed you on a precision scale before and after the 15 minutes, and I can inform you that you lost just over 200 g. Interesting, but that is just about 1/2 pound. I am not impressed.

[Dredred]

Emph, you do realize that, if you can actually do what you say (healing and heating) and you can do the same in a controlled setting, you get a million dollars, don't you? I'd take the application very seriously if I were you.

Your comment about regenerating flesh reminds me of someone I know who can make clouds drift by just by looking at them.. My point being it's easy to fool yourself..

I just lost 5 pounds while I was away. In about 15 minutes like I said.

I once was amazed about my ability to loose or gain several pounds in no time. Turned out my weighing machine was broken. Have you checked whether yours worked properly?

Were you in the jacuzzi during your weight loss? Did you remember to take the temperature before and after? If so, what was it?

Also to take into consideration this is a educational forum, therefore I think that I don't really need to tell what I Have done If it involves a lot of the stuff you usually do on a toilet your weight loss shouldn't be that mysterious.

I love evoulution!!! Me too! I like fish and apes but I like myself better

[Dredred]

Emph, one more question about your weight loss powers, if you dont't mind.

Do you think you can teach others how to do it? If so, think of everything you can do for the obese of the world!..

It would be very unfortunate for them if you don't inform the world about the existence of such a power. You can easily do that by showing your power in a controlled setting, for example by applying for the JREF prize. An additional benefit would be winning one million dollars, which you can spend on yourself or on good causes.

[petre]

I resisted the urge to make a comment suggesting a link between a certain bathroom event and sudden weight loss, so I'd like to take a moment to thank Dredred for taking the low road for me...

Exciting progress, emph now seems to be focusing on something measurable: sudden weight loss. Now, the next step should be to discover whether or not it is repeatable. Certainly, to excess it could be considered dangerous, though I wouldn't think there'd be much harm for most folks of average build in losing 10-15 lbs. For safety though, I recomend consulting with your doctor to help in developing a repeatable procedure.

You may be concerned a doctor would dismiss your claims. Indeed, I expect describing things exactly as you have here would cause many doctors concern. All that is necessary is that you mention that you are interested testing a system of meditation and excercise that you believe may result in weight-loss that you wish to monitor. He/She may be able to help you, for example by providing access to a very accurate scale to track changes.

If you won't consult with a doctor, at least find someone to observe things with you. A second person will be of great value at this stage to confirm that what you experience is also witnessed by others (and if they have a gym membership, maybe they can help with finding an accurate scale as well). Again, you needn't try to make them believe all that you believe. You can simply ask them to observe weighings with you, and by all means WRITE THEM DOWN! The more data you collect, the easier it will be to identify what is happening and learn about it.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

[WanderinWTF]

Emph, you do realize that, if you can actually do what you say (healing and heating) and you can do the same in a controlled setting, you get a million dollars, don't you? I'd take the application very seriously if I were you.

Your comment about regenerating flesh reminds me of someone I know who can make clouds drift by just by looking at them.. My point being it's easy to fool yourself..


I have moved clouds before not permantly, but let's just say all we needed was just about 1 minute. Me doing this made soft powder snow close by where I live.


I once was amazed about my ability to loose or gain several pounds in no time. Turned out my weighing machine was broken. Have you checked whether yours worked properly?

Im sure it works just fine.

Were you in the jacuzzi during your weight loss? Did you remember to take the temperature before and after? If so, what was it?

what would I take the tempature of, Im not sure as to what I would measure.



If it involves a lot of the stuff you usually do on a toilet your weight loss shouldn't be that mysterious.

This I know and believe me it's not that at all.

[Dredred]

I have moved clouds before not permantly, but let's just say all we needed was just about 1 minute. Me doing this made soft powder snow close by where I live.
You have that power too? Wow!


Im sure it works just fine.
You can find out buy weghing the same inanimate object numerous times to see if the same weight keeps being indicated.
what would I take the tempature of, Im not sure as to what I would measure.Of the water, as was mentioned several times before, to test your heating powers.

I assumed you considered your weight loss a byproduct of your heating efforts, maybe I was wrong?

[WanderinWTF]

You have that power too? Wow!
You can find out buy weghing the same inanimate object numerous times to see if the same weight keeps being indicated.Of the water, as was mentioned several times before, to test your heating powers.

I assumed you considered your weight loss a byproduct of your heating efforts, maybe I was wrong?


I don't have a thermonater to test the water. My weight loss is the combination of numerous things.

[Neutiquam Erro]

I don't have a thermonater to test the water. My weight loss is the combination of numerous things.
Am I the only one thinking about the Bookshop Skit (http://www.inprint.co.uk/thebookguide/bookshop-skit.htm)?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Am I the only one thinking about the Bookshop Skit (http://www.inprint.co.uk/thebookguide/bookshop-skit.htm)?

I was thinking Dead Parrot Sketch, or the Cheese Shop, but yeah, Bookshop works too.

[ChristineR]

Those links alone are almost enough for me to trot out the "T" word...I can't imagine why anyone would want such a boring hobby.

[WanderinWTF]

Those links alone are almost enough for me to trot out the "T" word...I can't imagine why anyone would want such a boring hobby.

Did you read what any of those said? Numbers don't lie. Also Im a Virgo with hands of Murcury dripping from them.

[Ririon]

I don't have a thermonater to test the water. My weight loss is the combination of numerous things.
(Bolding mine.) A what?
Did you read what any of those said? Numbers don't lie. Also Im a Virgo with hands of Murcury dripping from them.
Numbers lie. You didn't drag in astrology, too? I think that should do it. Troll.

[WanderinWTF]

I like to use the term sacred geometry. Trolls are the creatures that sit on your chest and make you have a nightmare. I stop nightmares I don't cause them.

[Ririon]

I like to use the term sacred geometry. Trolls are the creatures that sit on your chest and make you have a nightmare. I stop nightmares I don't cause them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[Curnir]

I like to use the term sacred geometry. Trolls are the creatures that sit on your chest and make you have a nightmare.
Riiiiiiiiight.
I stop nightmares I don't cause them.
I beg to differ.

I'lll ask again:
1. Is your energy heal instant or do they require mulitple 'treatments'?
2. Can you heal or is it just pain relief?
3. Can you use your powers to kill bacteria?
4. If so would you be able to kill bacteria in a petrie dish (using your powers of course)

[WanderinWTF]

Im not that at all, I don't want to be rude or offensive to anyone or to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion at all. I want for it to evolve I guess I just posted to much in one day for the normal person to handle. Im Sorry

[Ririon]

Im not that at all, I don't want to be rude or offensive to anyone or to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion at all. I want for it to evolve I guess I just posted to much in one day for the normal person to handle. Im Sorry
It is not a question of amount. It is a question of avoiding direct questions, derailing into all(!) kinds of woo, making fantastic claims but refusing to test in any way because of numerous excuses, being vague and unclear, not staying on topic, etc.

Next time you want to troll a forum, you might want to cut down on such behaviour a little. The experience will last longer that way. You could have kept me going a bit longer if you pretended to go along with some actual tests. ;)

But you had me going there for a while. If you want to be a persistent long-time troll, you should add some humor, preferrably of the absurd kind. See the MAS collective threads for inspiration.

Goodbye and good luck!

Ririon

[Mojo]

Im not that at all, I don't want to be rude or offensive to anyone or to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion at all. I want for it to evolve I guess I just posted to much in one day for the normal person to handle. Im SorryIt would help if you didn't keep moving the goalposts whenever a feasible test of your claim is suggested. First you claim that you can detect and treat injuries via some sort of laying on of hands. When a blinded test is suggested you bring up some totally irrelevant objection about magnets and your claim changes to an ability to generate heat. You then claim that a bowl of water is too small and your whole body must be immersed (despite the fact that you have said that you hold the energy between your hands). When a bathtub is suggested you say you need a square jacuzzi. Then you claim that your ability is actually to lose weight and that this is "the combination of numerous things". Then you bring in astrology.

Why not just suggest something that you can actually do and stick to that while a test is devised (rhetorical)?

[Anacoluthon64]

My, my. I go away for few hours (as in "Im off to gather some energy, meditate") and everything just falls of the bus: the number of posts almost doubles, and the varieties of powers have tripled. Wow!

But you had me going there for a while.

Agreed, and trollery will out. Though suspicious from very early on, I had hoped that with appropriate guidance... well, you know what. I suppose that's the price of being a tolerant sceptic - you leave yourself wide open to provocative and pointless ribbings by imps such as our friend here.

If you want to be a persistent long-time troll, you should add some humor, preferrably of the absurd kind.

I submit that this whole thread is steeped in absurd, Kafkaesque humour...

'Luthon64

[WanderinWTF]

I never objected to it, I just stated that is it possible to keep 2 magnets apart without seeing how close they are to each other. Right I generate a huge amount of heat its like an electric current that goes from my hand to the patients body. in some cases it needs to not to touch to transer the energy from my hand to that persons body. Musscles are differant I only need to touch them. As to the bowl of water do i need to bend over for this can i put both hands in it, is this bowl round square, how deep is this bowl.

as i gather the energy from the earth and around me i can hold it between my hands as long as i keep moving. When I say about losing weight the point is that I can endure a whole lot of heat at high tempatures and keep my blood flowing real fast.

[Mojo]

I never objected to it, I just stated that is it possible to keep 2 magnets apart without seeing how close they are to each other. What you were actually claiming at that point was ... all I have to do is run my hand just a few inchs from the other person at point of pain or injurys that need energy shows right away. When my hand comes in contact with it. (post #18 in this thread)There is no mention of magnets or any similar attraction. You only brought this up when a test of this ability was proposed.

Right I generate a huge amount of heat its like an electric current that goes from my hand to the patients body. in some cases it needs to not to touch to transer the energy from my hand to that persons body. Musscles are differant I only need to touch them. Again, this was not what you claimed about your heat-generating ability. You were not claiming to transfer heat to a patient, you were claiming (posts #85 and #87) to be able to generate heat in such a way as to heat up water, and (post #89) to be able to hold this "energy" between your hands.

As to the bowl of water do i need to bend over for this can i put both hands in it, is this bowl round square, how deep is this bowl. If it makes a difference to you, just suggest a posture and shape of bowl that you are happy with. The test can be designed around this.

as i gather the energy from the earth and around me i can hold it between my hands as long as i keep moving. When I say about losing weight the point is that I can endure a whole lot of heat at high tempatures and keep my blood flowing real fast.So is your claim now changing once again, from an ability to generate heat to an ability to endure high temperatures?

[WanderinWTF]

What you were actually claiming at that point was There is no mention of magnets or any similar attraction. You only brought this up when a test of this ability was proposed.

With a tube you can't see what is on the other side and being able to move. just like 2 magnets if you close your eyes and hold 2 magnets and put them as close to each other you possible can without touching what is gonna happen.

Again, this was not what you claimed about your heat-generating ability. You were not claiming to transfer heat to a patient, you were claiming (posts #85 and #87) to be able to generate heat in such a way as to heat up water, and (post #89) to be able to hold this "energy" between your hands.[/QUOTE]

Did you ever at one time ever cross your mind that maybe a person would just have to be in the same water while I do this to be able to receive energy? Or even ask why I would need to do this on some patients?

If it makes a difference to you, just suggest a posture and shape of bowl that you are happy with. The test can be designed around this.


Motion needs to flow from waste to shoulder level and sometimes in full circles verry fast you have no idea how fast my hands really are.

So is your claim now changing once again, from an ability to generate heat to an ability to endure high temperatures?

If someone has the ability to gather energy and hold it for a few minutes gathering more and more with a constant flow of motion don't you think that the person will need to endure high tempatures. To me they go hand in hand.


Now the reason the jacuzzi cause how many people can fit in one now imagine how many people can be healed at the same time.

[WanderinWTF]

Did you ever think that maybe the energy I can give is to high for some patients to endure that maybe they need to be in the water themselves.

[Nick Bogaerts]

Right I generate a huge amount of heat its like an electric current that goes from my hand to the patients body.

Another post, another claim. Another one easily testable. How much current can you generate? What is the potential difference between your hand and the patient's body? A multimeter should be enough to test this.

[Curnir]

*Sigh*

It's really very simple.

1. What can you do? (ie what can you heal, can you sense whats wrong etc.)
2. With what accuracy?
3. Under what circumstance?
4. How do you propose to prove this?

and please no PM regarding these questions.

below is a made up example:

1. I can dowse for underground whiskey and rum rivers. By use of a pendulum made from a gold coin and a leather thong.
2. Ohhh lets say 89,43 %
3. On even numbered tuesdays and sundays provided of course that there isn't a full moon that week, and only if I am drunk as a skunk at the time.
4. Wait untill a even numbered tuesday or sunday (on a no-full-moon week) get drunk as a skunk, and procede to dowse for whiskey and/or rum rivers. (rum and/or whiskey in plastic pipes buried 6' down will suffice.

see that's not a complete protocol but it is a start.

[jond]

So far you have yet to demonstrate ANY energy that you can give. You've told us various things, and for every simple test you've been offered, you've made up excuses why you can't test them. Then you bring sacred geometry into it? I assume this means you're an indigo child. That explains your spelling issues too...

[WanderinWTF]

Yup that I am. Also M87 I was there It happend cause of me. ;P)
At 12 1 person showed me how to solve sudoku.

wow 12 around 1 Jesus was an indigo child also did you know that. Im gonna make you wait to hear why I receice this hot energy.

[jond]

Uh-huh. At 10 my son can solve sudoku puzzles. And he can spell. And play Jeff Beck songs on guitar. Does that mean he's an indigo child too? Maybe there's something to this after all.

[chillzero]

Did you ever at one time ever cross your mind that maybe a person would just have to be in the same water while I do this to be able to receive energy? Or even ask why I would need to do this on some patients?

Motion needs to flow from waste to shoulder level and sometimes in full circles verry fast you have no idea how fast my hands really are.

Now the reason the jacuzzi cause how many people can fit in one now imagine how many people can be healed at the same time.

This brings to my mind an old joke. A guy is in a bar, and this other guy walks up to him and says, "I bet you 10p I could drink that pint of beer without touching the glass". The first guy is impressed by this claim, and agrees. Second guy picks up the glass, chugs the beer and smiles. "You picked up my glass - you touched it!" says the first guy.
"Here's your 10p - thanks for the beer." says the second, and leaves, grinning.

[WanderinWTF]

Uh-huh. At 10 my son can solve sudoku puzzles. And he can spell. And play Jeff Beck songs on guitar. Does that mean he's an indigo child too? Maybe there's something to this after all.

is it of the new sudoku with 9 grids each 3by3.

[jond]

Yes, the sudoku puzzles are 9 grids, each 3 x 3. He's really good at word searches too. He's also aware that sentences start with a capital letter. He's having a hard time dividing fractions just now though. Maybe that disqualifies him?

[WanderinWTF]

try have him only doing one sudoku 3by3 where a number that are next in sequence can not touch.;p) sudoku now is nothing

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://www.nata2.info/humor/flash/badger.swf

[Mojo]

Did you ever think that maybe the energy I can give is to high for some patients to endure that maybe they need to be in the water themselves.So far I see no reason to think this "energy" even exists.

[WanderinWTF]

Ill break da vinci code if someone would give me the letters or markings and symbols to it i broke what i seen


the first part is not smithcodeJ

[jond]

try have him only doing one sudoku 3by3 where a number that are next in sequence can not touch.;p) sudoku now is nothing

You've entirely missed the point. My son is not special, nor is he an indigo child. He's just a kid. Plays guitar really well, but he's got some genes that help there.

You poor deluded child. You have some serious issues, and your parents couldn't face the idea that their child was learning disabled so they bought into some nonsense from a "beautiful humble man" like Drunvalo and began the process of turning you into a nutcase. Please seek help before you get into more trouble.

[Mojo]

With a tube you can't see what is on the other side and being able to move. just like 2 magnets if you close your eyes and hold 2 magnets and put them as close to each other you possible can without touching what is gonna happen. Here's the claim you were making at the time: ... all I have to do is run my hand just a few inchs from the other person at point of pain or injurys that need energy shows right away. When my hand comes in contact with it. (post #18 in this thread)The whole point of using the tube or some other blinding is that you can't see whether or not the patient's hand (or whatever) is there. If your "power" involves some sort of attraction between your hand and the patient, you will feel it if the patient's hand is there, and not if it isn't. Alternatively, if the "power" doesn't involve attraction you should still, if it works as you have claimed, be able to tell whether or not the hand is there. This should begin to tell us whether your diagnostic "power" is real or whether you are just picking up on visual or other cues.

[WanderinWTF]

You've entirely missed the point. My son is not special, nor is he an indigo child. He's just a kid. Plays guitar really well, but he's got some genes that help there.

You poor deluded child. You have some serious issues, and your parents couldn't face the idea that their child was learning disabled so they bought into some nonsense from a "beautiful humble man" like Drunvalo and began the process of turning you into a nutcase. Please seek help before you get into more trouble.


Are you ok mister what are you talkin about. I don't have a learning disability what so ever Im a visual mathmatican so I can problem verry well helping me see the whole picture. What kind of trouble have i gotten myself into that I can't get myself out of.

[Aepervius]

Troll. A very bad troll at one.

PS: if the number in sequence do not touch it is far easier, because you reduce the possibility to just a very few (see the knight-move in chess to see how number are placed). So from 1 possibility out of 9 power 9 you go waaay down. In otehr way, it is easier than if number in seuqence cannot touch.

[WanderinWTF]

Here's the claim you were making at the time: The whole point of using the tube or some other blinding is that you can't see whether or not the patient's hand (or whatever) is there. If your "power" involves some sort of attraction between your hand and the patient, you will feel it if the patient's hand is there, and not if it isn't. Alternatively, if the "power" doesn't involve attraction you should still, if it works as you have claimed, be able to tell whether or not the hand is there. This should begin to tell us whether your diagnostic "power" is real or whether you are just picking up on visual or other cues.


Where do you get the patients hand from lol when it comes to their hands i only perform reflexology on them. There is hardly any energy needed in the finger tips that is to release energy not receive it. Are you afraid that Im the real thing so you try and come up with things like this I dont understand how you will try and tell me how I am going to do something.

[jond]

Are you ok mister what are you talkin about. I don't have a learning disability what so ever Im a visual mathmatican so I can problem verry well helping me see the whole picture. What kind of trouble have i gotten myself into that I can't get myself out of.

You have serious difficulties with spelling and grammar. But maybe English isn't your native language. As for trouble: claiming all kinds of powers and then refusing any means of testing those powers will land you in heaps of trouble. The reason science works is because of the process of testing and understanding. If you have the powers you claim to have, and you refuse to study and understand them you can cause tremendous harm. If you don't then you you are deluded and anyone who believes you is equally deluded. And if you try to heal them when you can't, you're causing harm.

[WanderinWTF]

6-7-9
1-2-5-
8-3-4 see the 1 next to the 2 wrong see the 3 4 and 5 next to each other as well as the 2 wrong

[Mojo]

Where do you get the patients hand from lol when it comes to their hands i only perform reflexology on them. There is hardly any energy needed in the finger tips that is to release energy not receive it. Yet another claim. Can you demonstrate that reflexology is real? Are you afraid that Im the real thing so you try and come up with things like this I dont understand how you will try and tell me how I am going to do something.No, I'm not afraid that you are "the real thing". I'm afraid that you are either deluded or a fraud.

[WanderinWTF]

You have serious difficulties with spelling and grammar. But maybe English isn't your native language. As for trouble: claiming all kinds of powers and then refusing any means of testing those powers will land you in heaps of trouble. The reason science works is because of the process of
testing and understanding.

If you have the powers you claim to have, and you refuse to study and understand them you can cause tremendous harm. If you don't then you you are deluded and anyone who believes you is equally deluded. And if you try to heal them when you can't, you're causing harm.



Key word testing and understanding you have not tested this like I have nor do you understand anything about what I can do. Or even accept what I have done.

maybe you should go do a google search on projection of chi

[UrsulaV]

Well, at least this troll blew up a lot faster than Amy Wilson.

It's true.

[jond]

Key word testing and understanding you have not tested this like I have nor do you understand anything about what I can do. Or even accept what I have done.

maybe you should go do a google search on projection of chi

But this is the first time you've mentioned projecting chi. But it's by no means the first time it's been discussed in detail here in the JREF forum. Perhaps you should spend some time looking at the tests that have been done on it. You're right: I have not done the tests myself. But I accept the results of the tests I've seen.

[Anacoluthon64]

I suggest we all stop responding, and reflect on these words of Yeats (replacing "years" with "posts" and "life" with "thread" in the last few lines):

Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.

'Luthon64

[Mojo]

Where do you get the patients hand from lol Do try to remember what you have claimed and has been posted in response. This comes from post #20 in this thread, a post which you yourself have replied to and thus, presumably, one that you have read. You had claimed that you can detect injury or pain by passing your hand a few inches from the patient's body. It was suggested by ChristineR that if a patient with an injured or painful hand was used s a subject, you should be able to detect whether the hand was present inside a cardboard tube or not by detecting the injury or pain when the hand was present.

[strathmeyer]

Key word testing and understanding you have not tested this like I have nor do you understand anything about what I can do. Or even accept what I have done.

maybe you should go do a google search on projection of chi

How will Googling chi help us? What does a fictional energy have to do wih you?

How are we supposed to accept what you have done when you won't tell us what you have done? Why can't you explain what you can do? Why can't you describe the tests that you have done?

The answer is simple: because you are a fraud, a cheat, and a liar, and just not all that smart.

[WanderinWTF]

How will Googling chi help us? What does a fictional energy have to do wih you?

How are we supposed to accept what you have done when you won't tell us what you have done? Why can't you explain what you can do? Why can't you describe the tests that you have done?

The answer is simple: because you are a fraud, a cheat, and a liar, and just not all that smart.


I don't expect you to accept anything, I don't need to explain what I have done or can do, or even what I am to a weak minded person like you.

You really should watch what you say Im proud to be me. Those who cheat only cheat themselves that's just not me. Im no liar you just can't see the truth if it bit you in the eye. Just to let you know im smarter than what you have been told.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I don't expect you to accept anything, I don't need to explain what I have done or can do, or even what I am to a weak minded person like you.

You really should watch what you say Im proud to be me. Those who cheat only cheat themselves that's just not me. Im no liar you just can't see the truth if it bit you in the eye. Just to let you know im smarter than what you have been told.

Then why are you here and why are you inquiring about the Challenge?

[WanderinWTF]

Then why are you here and why are you inquiring about the Challenge?


Im a life long fan of Randi. Im here for educational purposes. That cruise looks like fun also, hoping I might get a free ride. Then maybe I could see my long lost Daddy. ;P)

[ChristineR]

Ladies and gentlemen, I am about to add someone to my ignore list. For the rest of you, I'll see you on other topics. ;)

[Curnir]

Ladies and gentlemen, I am about to add someone to my ignore list. For the rest of you, I'll see you on other topics. ;)

Yupp the first entry on my Ignore list.

[WanderinWTF]

Randi if you read this pls answer me this. How many surgerys have you had. What happend to your forehead did you get in a wreck of some sort or did you do it for science and MaJiK. Also that man in your picture what millitary did he serve in?

[WanderinWTF]

WoW who would of thought of other than me lol

Randi is connected with G.W.B. WOW

Man Randi I never thought you was a grave digger lol jk its cool I know who it is also

What other kind of goodys do you got I wanna see I wanna see

[strathmeyer]

I don't expect you to accept anything, I don't need to explain what I have done or can do, or even what I am to a weak minded person like you.

You really should watch what you say Im proud to be me. Those who cheat only cheat themselves that's just not me. Im no liar you just can't see the truth if it bit you in the eye. Just to let you know im smarter than what you have been told.

I'm sorry, only stupid people believe things just because they're told. What you've posted here makes it clear that you expect people to believe things just because you say them. The fact that you're accustommed to speaking to stupid people is sad. I wish you could get out into the real world and have real experiences with real people. Until then, perhaps you should find some other place to post, some place that is populated with people whom are more like you.

If you don't expect anyone to accept anything, why are you posting here? What don't you need to explain what you have done or can do? What makes you think that I am weak minded? What in my posts here, or in any other information you may have about me has caused you to come to that conclusion. Who has told me how smart you are? This doesn't even make any sense. You know what we call things that make no sense? Nonsense. I know it's confusing; there's an extra N. Deal with it.

[WanderinWTF]

I really don't care if people read my posts or not and especially beleive what I put. There is noone like me Im one of a kind and Im not stupid. See if you actually read what I put I actually involved this whole forum on me doing my tests. When I returned and told the forum how it went and what I learned I pretty much got my head bit off.

[Mojo]

See if you actually read what I put I actually involved this whole forum on me doing my tests. When I returned and told the forum how it went and what I learned I pretty much got my head bit off.Sorry, I seem to have missed your account of your tests. Could you link to the relevant post, please? Or if you can't figure out how to do that just let us know the post number(s).

[jond]

WoW who would of thought of other than me lol

Randi is connected with G.W.B. WOW

Man Randi I never thought you was a grave digger lol jk its cool I know who it is also

What other kind of goodys do you got I wanna see I wanna see

WTF????????

Maybe he's worse than I first thought.

[WanderinWTF]

WTF????????

Maybe he's worse than I first thought.


Do you even know what I am even talking about.

[Mojo]

Do you even know what I am even talking about.Do you?

[Mojo]

And by the way, Emph, Can you tell us where the post is in which you told the forum how your tests went and what you learned from them?

[WanderinWTF]

I said that me being in a large square jacuzzi is better than round. I didn't get the chance to say what I really learned cause for some reason I felt I needed to defend myself.

[WanderinWTF]

Sacred Geometry has something to do with the square jacuzzi as well as my research for my tests.

[Nick Bogaerts]

I am sorry to say, emph, but we are really not interested in what you fancy yourself to have learnt until you have proven at least one of your claims.

After which, we'll be all ears.

So once again: what is your claim and how do you propose to test it?

[Roboramma]

Emph, saying that a square jacuzzi is better than a round one is not testing your abilities, nor is it telling us about a test of your abilities.

What tests have you done? If you've told us of any, please post the post # where you did so.

Thanks.

eta a question mark.

[Mojo]

Sacred Geometry has something to do with the square jacuzzi as well as my research for my tests.What tests?

[WanderinWTF]

To gather more and more energy in a jacuzzi to heal people, as well as for great health. It's how I need to focus on healing some people.

[Mojo]

What tests of your claimed abilities have you carried out? You know, the tests you said you'd told the forum about?

[WanderinWTF]

All of them. Im just still working on the gathering energy in the water still as of right now. I still need more time on it, it's coming along just fine though. I already know what I can perform with it. I just need to explore how far Im able to take it. You have no idea what I seen the other day when I went and did it. If everyone didn't say the things they did I would have shared it with everyone. It was amazing looking to me made me relize so much. especially how square is way better than round. But Im sure you all knew this already, must have been the reason why you all wanted me to use a round bowl.

[Flange Desire]

A simple test involving water and a thermometer has been suggested to you, and you have not tried it.

For a million dollars you would have tried it.
Please don't bore us with excuses.

[WanderinWTF]

Wow, who do you really think your talkin to Flange. Do you think I am limited with only 1 test. That is just somehting I am workin on now, I still have a whole lot of studing to do so much reading still. Just the other day I seen me and a god have the same name, a water god at that. Think About It!!!

[Flange Desire]

All of them. Im just still working on the gathering energy in the water still as of right now. I still need more time on it, it's coming along just fine though. I already know what I can perform with it. I just need to explore how far Im able to take it. You have no idea what I seen the other day when I went and did it. If everyone didn't say the things they did I would have shared it with everyone. It was amazing looking to me made me relize so much. especially how square is way better than round. But Im sure you all knew this already, must have been the reason why you all wanted me to use a round bowl.

You say you are 'just still working on the gathering of the energy in the water still as of right now'. So you are typing underwater as we speak?

Of course you need lots of time, especially if you want to 'explore how far you can take it'.
And you are correct that the round bowl is best for this type of thing.

Good luck with your exploration.

[WanderinWTF]

You say you are 'just still working on the gathering of the energy in the water still as of right now'. So you are typing underwater as we speak?

Of course you need lots of time, especially if you want to 'explore how far you can take it'.
And you are correct that the round bowl is best for this type of thing.

Good luck with your exploration.


Actually the round is not best for this Flange, atleast not with what i want to do. When I use a round 5gallon bucket I got one big circle I did it all the way to the bottom where I could touch the bottom with my fingertips. Now with the square its way better. lol Have you ever heard of sacred geometry?

[Flange Desire]

Wow, who do you really think your talkin to Flange. Do you think I am limited with only 1 test. That is just somehting I am workin on now, I still have a whole lot of studing to do so much reading still. Just the other day I seen me and a god have the same name, a water god at that. Think About It!!!

Sorry for the interleaved posts - thats how it goes.

OK, I thought about it for about a second - I really think am talking to a troll.

JREF is talking about 1 MILLION DOLLARS!
And you talk about water gods.
Just demonstrate your claim.

[Flange Desire]

Actually the round is not best for this Flange, atleast not with what i want to do. When I use a round 5gallon bucket I got one big circle I did it all the way to the bottom where I could touch the bottom with my fingertips. Now with the square its way better. lol Have you ever heard of sacred geometry?

Each to their own.
When I touch the bottom with my fingertips, I find round is best.

Yes, heard of that thanks.
Demonstrate your claim.

[WanderinWTF]

Each to their own.
When I touch the bottom with my fingertips, I find round is best.

Yes, heard of that thanks.
Demonstrate your claim.


Right round is the easiest to touch the bottom, now think about doing a square one using your whole body. When your finished or after im done imagine seeing a bunch currents flowing all over more than one but rather a bunch. To me I seen Sacred Geometry flowing and moving all around all through out the jacuzzi.

[Flange Desire]

Imagine whatever you like.
Just demonstate your claim.

[WanderinWTF]

Imagine whatever you like.
Just demonstate your claim.

Does this make sense to you at all.

[Flange Desire]

Does this make sense to you at all.
Just demonstrate your claim.

[WanderinWTF]

To demonstrate I need a good lawyer, then send in my app. wait a while and stuff. I would rather just demonstrate it now, however I can't there is no one to show around me.

[Flange Desire]

Sure. You could save some time up front while you are waiting ...
State just one paranormal thing you can do (in english).
Develop a simple test to demonstrate it.

You will not do these things.

[WanderinWTF]

I need help I need a few things to test with. I want to test it on my own first b4 I send in what ever it is that i purpose, however I have no way of gettin these things. So I have to wait for someone to come across me that has these things that's willing to either help me use it to test or buy me one.

[Anacoluthon64]

You're wasting your breath. The originator of this thread seems able to speak only in non sequiturs. Mind you, some might consider that ability paranormal in itself.

'Luthon64

[Flange Desire]

I need help I need a few things to test with. I want to test it on my own first b4 I send in what ever it is that i purpose, however I have no way of gettin these things. So I have to wait for someone to come across me that has these things that's willing to either help me use it to test or buy me one.

You have to wait for someone to help you with a bowl of water and a thermometer? And there is a million smackeroos riding on it.
Get real!

[Mojo]

All of them. OK, describe the tests. Say what specific ability you were trying to test, how you carried out the test and what the results were.

Im just still working on the gathering energy in the water still as of right now. I still need more time on it, it's coming along just fine though. If you're still working on this one tell us about the others. I already know what I can perform with it. OK, give us an instance of something specific that you can do that can be tested.

I just need to explore how far Im able to take it. You have no idea what I seen the other day when I went and did it.Of course we don't, because you haven't told us.

If everyone didn't say the things they did I would have shared it with everyone. It was amazing looking to me made me relize so much. especially how square is way better than round.What tests have you carried out that have given results which indicate that square is better than round?

But Im sure you all knew this already, must have been the reason why you all wanted me to use a round bowl.Use whatever shaped receptacle you want. Just make a testable claim and stick to it when a test is suggested.

[Roboramma]

I need help I need a few things to test with. I want to test it on my own first b4 I send in what ever it is that i purpose, however I have no way of gettin these things. So I have to wait for someone to come across me that has these things that's willing to either help me use it to test or buy me one.

You need very little. Just make clear what you can do, be honest, and be willing to answer questions, and we can help you design a very simple test.

You do have a friend, some cardboard, and a knife, right? That's all you'd need for one of the tests offered.
Another required only a bowl and a thermometer. Again, not very expensive hardware.

Those tests don't work? Okay, be specific about what you can do, and there should be a simple, inexpensive way to test it.
But you need to be specific and actually answer questions clearly.

[WanderinWTF]

How hot would someone need to be to evaporate water out or off of one's own body?

[WanderinWTF]

It is possible to be able to measure the amount of electricity or heat between me and another person's body right.

[Mojo]

How hot would someone need to be to evaporate water out or off of one's own body?Not very. Normal body temperature would do it.

[Mojo]

It is possible to be able to measure the amount of electricity or heat between me and another person's body right.What exactly do you mean here? you have talked about "holding" heat between your hands. Do you mean you "hold" the heat or electricity between you and another person's body, or that heat or electricity travels from you to the other person?

The best way to measure heat is to use it to heat something of a known mass (say a specific amount of water) up, and measure the temperature change. Could you do this?

[WanderinWTF]

What exactly do you mean here? you have talked about "holding" heat between your hands. Do you mean you "hold" the heat or electricity between you and another person's body, or that heat or electricity travels from you to the other person?

The best way to measure heat is to use it to heat something of a known mass (say a specific amount of water) up, and measure the temperature change. Could you do this?

Maybe in hot water cause I think that if it's cool already it will just cool me down. I tryed to measure the water the other day Im sure it was hotter than when I first got in. I just don't have something that I can use to measure the heat.

Yup heat and or electricity can catch the others persons body. From what I have seen myself and felt where it is needed like stressed musscles, tendants, ligaments, joints. I just don't like to use this in some cases cause my hot energy will sometimes be to hot for the person they can't receive it in a safe manner in the open air.

That is why the jacuzzi is needed to have an equal balance of yinyang for the patient.

[WanderinWTF]

Not very. Normal body temperature would do it.

To evaporate off or out of the body. We don't even do this when we sweat. do we? we only drip. I mean for steam to rise off of someone's body into the air.

[Darat]

emph is your claim that when you are in a Jacuzzi you can make the temperature of the water rise?

[WanderinWTF]

emph is your claim that when you are in a Jacuzzi you can make the temperature of the water rise?

Nope it is not.

[Darat]

Nope it is not.


Please simply and clearly state what paranormal power you believe you have.

[Darat]

Unfortunately "emph" was a previously banned Member - "WanderinWTF", I'm afraid someone was trying to yank our chains.

[Anacoluthon64]

Unfortunately "emph" was a previously banned Member - "WanderinWTF", I'm afraid someone was trying to yank our chains.

If I may ask, how did you discover this?

Just "Wanderin"...

'Luthon64

[Darat]

We don't disclose the exact means we use - none of it is rocket science or can't be found on the Internet in minutes however there is no need to make it easier for people to circumvent our rules.

[Roboramma]

To evaporate off or out of the body. We don't even do this when we sweat. do we? we only drip. I mean for steam to rise off of someone's body into the air.

I just thought I ought to point out that evaporation is the point of sweat. That's why we do it - when we sweat the energy loss that goes into converting the water into a gas is what cools us down.
So yes, we do this when we sweat.

Not that it matters, I've just always found evaporation cool.

[Curnir]

Not that it matters, I've just always found evaporation cool.

Oh I say, I do enjoy a bad joke. :D

[petre]

Well, as the thread winds down perhaps I can at least answer a specific question.

Normal body head is indeed sufficient to evaporate water, which is how sweat cools the body. A liquid at any temperature between its freezing point and boiling point will evaporate until the surrounding medium (e.g. air) is saturated.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03444.htm

[Mychieal]

Well, as the thread winds down perhaps I can at least answer a specific question.

Normal body head is indeed sufficient to evaporate water, which is how sweat cools the body. A liquid at any temperature between its freezing point and boiling point will evaporate until the surrounding medium (e.g. air) is saturated.



Indeed. The question, how ever, would be HOW MUCH evaporation was experienced. Keep in mind, that while the human body uses evaporation to regulate it's temperature, it would be a completely different story if say, half of the tub or jacuzzi was evaporated.

I guess, since the member was and is probably again a banned member, we shall never know.
-Mych.