Challenge no longer on hold

[Timothy]

Now that the Challenge is no longer on hiatus per Jeff Wagg's message, can the Challenge administrator answer two questions?

1) Will new applications be posted in the forum as before?
2) If so, and if any new applications came in during the hiatus, when may we expect to see them posted?

- Timothy

[Jeff Wagg]

Now that the Challenge is no longer on hiatus per Jeff Wagg's message, can the Challenge administrator answer two questions?

1) Will new applications be posted in the forum as before?
2) If so, and if any new applications came in during the hiatus, when may we expect to see them posted?

- Timothy

1) Possibly. I'm heading down to the JREF next week to determine that. There are concerns that many of the people who apply for the challenge are mentally ill, and that posting their applications here is an act of cruelty. I'll let you know.

2) Many new applications were received, few, if any, were complete. If we decide to post them, I hope to start doing so next week.

[TheBoyPaj]

Surely the details of the claimed feat could be posted, but without the applicant's name?

In know that the challenge log is a relatively new addition to the forum, but it has become one of the most interesting parts of the site. Being party to the to-and-fro of protocol negotiations gives one a great insight into what sort of claims are made and how one might go about determining what is true.
I feel that we would be missing out on some educational benefits if this information was no longer divulged.

And what about people like Mr Yahweh? Surely having their name on the site is in the public interests?

[RPG Advocate]

Also, by submitting an application, the applicant, mentally ill or not, acknowledges that none of the application will be confidential per the
challenge FAQ:

4.6. How much of my application is confidential?

Assume none of it is. If this bothers you, it is better that you do not apply


I agree with omitting names, though. I'm not really interested in the name of the applicant unless he or she actually makes it to the preliminary test.

[Skiltch]

If they're mentally ill, though, they may not have understand that part. I would agree that it would be cruel to post messages from clearly mentally ill people.
I do agree that in the case of famous people, it should be done, and also I don't see anything wrong with posting a feat and not a name.

[Spidey13]

I need them posted to the forum. I've been going through some serious withdrawl since the challenge has been on hold. :boggled:

I'm all for posting them without names.

[Anti_Hypeman]

If the applications and emails are not posted then the woo can claim anything. Randi backed out, cheated, changed the rules, lied, demanded my first born.

[drkitten]

If the applications and emails are not posted then the woo can claim anything. Randi backed out, cheated, changed the rules, lied, demanded my first born.

If the applications and emails are posted, the woo can still claim anything. Randi either edited the applications/emails prior to posting them on the web, or he sent other messages that did not appear on the official transcript.

[drkitten]

Also, by submitting an application, the applicant, mentally ill or not, acknowledges that none of the application will be confidential per the
challenge FAQ:

From a legal standpoint, someone mentally ill may not have the necessary understanding/competence to make that acknowledgement.

From a moral standpoint, even if someone agrees to let you do something cruel to them, it's still cruel. This is part of why JREF won't accept challenges that involve serious risk of harm to the applicant -- even when/if the applicant is willing to sign the appropriate waiver.

[William Smith]

I also support the notion to "put it all in the open". It serves as an information source in many varieties. And I do in no way think of it as cheap entertainment.

Also, I suggest to leave the labeling of medical terms to medical personnel.
I'm positive the JREF staff will carefully - and in the end successfully - weigh out between serving a public interest by posting applications in the Challenge Forum and preserving the rights of citizens to privacy and dignity.

On the other hand, as RPG Advocate already posted: 4.6. How much of my application is confidential?

Assume none of it is. If this bothers you, it is better that you do not apply.
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#4.6

[Ririon]

If the applications and emails are posted, the woo can still claim anything. Randi either edited the applications/emails prior to posting them on the web, or he sent other messages that did not appear on the official transcript.
I would still like to know the JREF's version of the story.

[Metullus]

I, too, am for posting application correspondence, albeit without names.

Unless, of course, the applicant lives near me, in which case I think that the name, address, and telephone number should also be made public...

[Tirdun]

I'd throw in my 2cents, but GzuzKryst seems to have thrown them in already.

The conversations are both entertaining and interesting. More importantly, they highlight the pitfalls in the process for anyone thinking of attempting, and demonstrate the effort required by JREF to keep a claimant focused and progressing forward.

[Doubt]

Does this mean we have a new challange administrator?

[ruach1]

Does this mean we have a new challange administrator?
I think if there were a new Challenge Administrator there would be considerable fanfare about it--considerable in having considered it in the least. :confused:

Anyway, its good to see the Challenge up and running. Somehow it makes me feel good about Randi's health. :dc_biggrin:

[rjh01]

If applications are no longer on hold then that implies we have Kramer mark 2. It is rather odd that it has not been announced.

As for names, maybe publish them either if they are public figures or when JREF agrees that a preliminary test will happen. Then if there is anyone knows anything about this person then JREF can be informed. Or if after the applicant goes to the media at least the media can find out the person about the test.

[Hastur]

How about this:

Rather than posting a full name, the JREF initially posts with initials (or any combination of name/initials) until
a. the JREF gets express, written permission from the applicant, or
b. the applicant does something to make them a public figure (e.g. going to the media, already a public figure)

[steenkh]

or

c. they actually make it to the formal test!

[Mendeli]

If applications are no longer on hold then that implies we have Kramer mark 2. It is rather odd that it has not been announced.



I can't be certain but doesn't this seem to imply that maybe Jeff Wagg is the "Kramer mark 2"? :)

If we decide to post them, I hope to start doing so next week.

[William Smith]

I can't be certain but doesn't this seem to imply that maybe Jeff Wagg is the "Kramer mark 2"? :)

If anybody fancies certainty, they could simply ask Mr. Wagg via challenge@randi.org

[webfusion]

If anybody fancies certainty, they could simply ask Mr. Wagg

That's not a very skeptical method, GzuzKryzt.
Why don't YOU ask him and then provide the answer here, instead of placing the onus on the mythical "anybody" and suggesting this investigation is the responsibility of someone else? Or, do you not fancy certainty yourself?

[TheBoyPaj]

**pushing webfusion in the back**

I'm not asking him either. You do it.

It was my turn last Halloween when I rang old man Heggarty's doorbell and ran away.

[William Smith]

That's not a very skeptical method, GzuzKryzt.
Why don't YOU ask him and then provide the answer here, instead of placing the onus on the mythical "anybody" and suggesting this investigation is the responsibility of someone else? Or, do you not fancy certainty yourself?

I do not stick the label "skeptic" to my forehead and I do not consider this matter calling for a huge amount of skepticism.

Also, I have confidence in the JREF Staff. They most likely will work out what serves the Challenge best. Therefore, I apply a little patience and wait until the new Challenge Facilitator steps up officially.

I neither brought up the speculations about the new Challenge Facilitator nor do I intend to partake.

I simply wanted to put the idea of asking Mr. Wagg on the table. For those who seemed in immediate need to know what's going on, I considered asking the person temporarily in charge the most reasonable and fruitful idea.

Of course, no Forum Member shall feel hindered by my proposition to engage in any kind of guessing games.

[Pinocchio]

All applicants' names should become public the MINUTE they apply. Anonymous cases would only add to the crap the challenge administrator has to put up with.

All information pertaining to their claims should be public without exception. Lack of transparency would only strenghten fakers' cases. All applications should also be featured in the forum without exception so that anyone can be up to date with all claims.

It has been this way all this time, why change anything??

[Lamuella]

this is something you could compromise on. Perhaps if an addition were made to the challenge applications where by the applicant could opt to be identified on the forums by initials instead of full name. That way, those not wishing their full name to be known would not have it known, whereas we would know the names of those who didn't mind.

Once the application reaches the preliminary testing phase, the name should be announced anyway.

[CFLarsen]

All applicants' names should become public the MINUTE they apply. Anonymous cases would only add to the crap the challenge administrator has to put up with.

All information pertaining to their claims should be public without exception. Lack of transparency would only strenghten fakers' cases. All applications should also be featured in the forum without exception so that anyone can be up to date with all claims.

It has been this way all this time, why change anything??
It has?

Care to back that up with evidence?

[Flange Desire]

All applicants' names should become public the MINUTE they apply. Anonymous cases would only add to the crap the challenge administrator has to put up with.

All information pertaining to their claims should be public without exception. Lack of transparency would only strenghten fakers' cases. All applications should also be featured in the forum without exception so that anyone can be up to date with all claims.

It has been this way all this time, why change anything??

Agreed!
And if one were to successfully demonstrate paranormal powers,
then world wide notoriety would be inevitable anyway.

[Mendeli]

It has?

Care to back that up with evidence?

Well, if one would define "All this time" as the time from September 2004 to February 2006, then one would have the proof in the log of applicants section of this forum :)

[Beth]

Well, if one would define "All this time" as the time from September 2004 to February 2006, then one would have the proof in the log of applicants section of this forum :)

Not all correspondence between JREF and the applicant is published in the log.

[William Smith]

Not all correspondence between JREF and the applicant is published in the log.

Beth, since you applied for the Challenge you most likely have both sides of this story.

How would you like to see the incoming Applications handled? Posted in their entirety? Anonymous? (I can't possibly type down all the questions I have.)

Please let us know your thoughts on this.

[TheBoyPaj]

It seems only fair that, if the JREF were to be restricted in what they can and cannot publish, similar restrictions should be placed on the applicant.

Of course, that would lead to accusation that the JREF is censoring applicants. I still favour the open approach, personally.

[Doubt]

All applicants' names should become public the MINUTE they apply. Anonymous cases would only add to the crap the challenge administrator has to put up with.

All information pertaining to their claims should be public without exception. Lack of transparency would only strenghten fakers' cases. All applications should also be featured in the forum without exception so that anyone can be up to date with all claims.

It has been this way all this time, why change anything??

I have been involved in investigating two claims. There were a great many e-mails back and forth between myself and the applicants. Everything I sent also had to be forwarded to Kramer.

The content of most of those e-mails is very, very repetative. Kramer posted a few quotes from them. That was more than enough.

It is a good idea for the JREF to reatain all the information. But it does not help much to put it all out in public. Unless the goal is to make peoples eyes glaze over.

[jdodd]

...
TheBoyPaj, your avatar is seriously freaking me out. Where on earth is it from?

[Jeff Wagg]

TheBoyPaj, your avatar is seriously freaking me out. Where on earth is it from?

Ditto.

Also, news on the challenge soon.

[Lamuella]

I believe his avatar is from a show called The Mighty Boosh

[TheBoyPaj]

It is that.

[russingram]

i need to make more posts so i can put up a cool animated avatar like theboypaj

[russingram]

of course, then i'd have to figure out how to upload it, but i've got the perfect one in mind!

[russingram]

By the way, how many posts does it take?

[petre]

By the way, how many posts does it take?

Isn't most stuff unlocked by the 15th post? I recall wanting to put a URL in my 15th post, but at the time I only had 14. So I posted it, and then edited it to add the URL since I then had 15 posts :)

[Terry]

By the way, how many posts does it take?

50, but please don't derail threads just to make up your post numbers. There are many threads in the Humor section suitable for rapidly accumulating posts ;) Also, it can take up to an hour after you hit the 50 post mark for avatar uploads to become enabled. This is an artifact of the way the "promotion" rules in the forum work.