How skeptics pray?

It is a fact....some skeptics pray to an unknown God.
Also Mr. Harold Bidlackk do it, if you read the latest week`s commentary.

Anybody here know or have an idea about how skpetics pray?



Thank you

Sorry for my english.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ex-latin
Anybody here know or have an idea about how skpetics pray?


Through their lawyer

[evildave]

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

[jimmygun]

Obviously they don't.

[CWL]

Originally posted by ex-latin
Anybody here know or have an idea about how skpetics pray?

Not at all.

Although I do lash out like Basil Fawlty sometimes, saying "Thank you God, thank you so bloody much".

[Tricky]

I actually used to think they said this:

Our Father, who aren't in Heaven...

(I didn't worry much about subject-verb agreement back then.)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tricky
I actually used to think they said this:

Our Father, who aren't in Heaven...

(I didn't worry much about subject-verb agreement back then.)
Actually, that being a Christian prayer and God being a trinity, the subject and verb almost agree.

Dear all,

It is interesting that the responses, so far, have not been serious.

It seems like a reasonable question. Bidlack is a self-proclaimed skeptic who says that he also prays to a God he believes in. The mind wonders how he does that. I suppose we'll have to wait for him to get back to answer.

Sincerely,

S.H.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear all,

It is interesting that the responses, so far, have not been serious.

It seems like a reasonable question. Bidlack is a self-proclaimed skeptic who says that he also prays to a God he believes in. The mind wonders how he does that. I suppose we'll have to wait for him to get back to answer.

Sincerely,

S.H.

Why is it so difficult for you to believe that he could be a skeptic and pray to a God he believes in?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear all,

It is interesting that the responses, so far, have not been serious.

It seems like a reasonable question. Bidlack is a self-proclaimed skeptic who says that he also prays to a God he believes in. The mind wonders how he does that. I suppose we'll have to wait for him to get back to answer.

Sincerely,

S.H.
From Hal's commentary, it appears that he doesn't really expect the deity to listen to his prayers, and he expects even less that the deity will do anything about them. In my mind, it is hard to call this a "prayer". It seems more like a "wish".

Joshua Korosi, another deist skeptic, seems to believe that the "watchmaker", once he has set it in motion, has absolutely no further intervention in the universe, thus prayer is useless. (Apologies, Josh, if I have misrepresented you.)

Of course, all people, including skeptics and atheists, wish and hope for favorable outcomes to each situation. Only if you have belief that possibly somebody/something will hear your wish and act on it does it become a prayer, IMO.

So I think (in all respect for Mr. Bidlack) that Hal is inaccurately using the word "prayer", since he believes, somewhat like Ambrose Bierce (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/p.html)
PRAY, v. - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.

[whitefork]

For me prayer serves the same function as composing a satisfying post to this forum, and then - not posting it.

Originally posted by KelvinG


Why is it so difficult for you to believe that he could be a skeptic and pray to a God he believes in?

Dear Mr. G,

It isn't difficult for me. However, reading the comments of a few extreme skeptics, it is difficult for them to see how a critical thinker could believe in a fairy or a Santa.

Sincerely,

S. H.

Dear Mr. Tricky,


From Hal's commentary, it appears that he doesn't really expect the deity to listen to his prayers, and he expects even less that the deity will do anything about them. In my mind, it is hard to call this a "prayer". It seems more like a "wish".


(Below is the argument of some skeptics. For what it is worth, I don't have a problem with anyone praying.)

The fact remains that he makes prayers to his "sky daddy", which is in no way skeptical. Of course, he still reserves the right to debunk and poke fun at others' claims and beliefs, just not his own apparently.

Sincerely,

S.H.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear Mr. Tricky,



(Below is the argument of some skeptics. For what it is worth, I don't have a problem with anyone praying.)

The fact remains that he makes prayers to his "sky daddy", which is in no way skeptical. Of course, he still reserves the right to debunk and poke fun at others' claims and beliefs, just not his own apparently.

Clever deduction, Holmes. Yes, all of us imperfect skeptics reserve the right to needle people who are non-skeptical about things that are different from the things we are non-skeptical about. I think it is important for me to realize this and not be offended when people needle me. I am guessing that Hal has a pretty good sense of humor about his "beliefs" too.

Still, I try to keep my sig in mind.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by triadboy


Through their lawyer

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And what if they are lawyers?


Ohhhh Charmion... Mr.Tricky enjoys the readings of Ambroce Bierce too... go tell him that I ordered him to place his stool a bit closer to my throne...

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear all,

It is interesting that the responses, so far, have not been serious.

It seems like a reasonable question. Bidlack is a self-proclaimed skeptic who says that he also prays to a God he believes in. The mind wonders how he does that. I suppose we'll have to wait for him to get back to answer.

Sincerely,

S.H.

Serious the fans ?????? never

Back with the answer????

He was at the forum 3 days after the week`s commentaries and he was "misteriously" in silence..then he is doing I don`t know what ?¿?¿?¿?¿?.....maybe he need more time to give a skeptical answer to his believes.

[Kally]

I always thought it said, "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN
HOWARD BE THY NAME." Now I know it's true. I met Howard.

Kally

Originally posted by Kally
I always thought it said, "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN
HOWARD BE THY NAME." Now I know it's true. I met Howard.

Kally

Howard or Harold?

[woodguard]

A skeptic would learn to pray two seconds before the bus hit them.


But would a skeptic buy a lottery ticket ?:rolleyes:

[Tricky]

Originally posted by woodguard
A skeptic would learn to pray two seconds before the bus hit them.

LOL. This recalls an old thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7665&highlight=athiests) started by Jedi Knight. The final consensus was that atheists would not pray. Speaking from personal experience, I can verify that this is true.
Originally posted by woodguard
But would a skeptic buy a lottery ticket ?

I wouldn't, as I regard the lottery as a tax on people who are bad at math. However, skeptics do some silly things. I myself have been known to shout at a television, in the ridiculous belief that I am influencing a game being played many miles away.:D

[woodguard]

Originally posted by Tricky

I myself have been known to shout at a television, in the ridiculous belief that I am influencing a game being played many miles away.:D

I think you just define what praying real is?

[evildave]

Originally posted by woodguard
A skeptic would learn to pray two seconds before the bus hit them.


But would a skeptic buy a lottery ticket ?:rolleyes:

Yes, and all people want a taco when they die.

And no, the odds indicate I'm 16x more likely to be struck by lightning, and I don't take the comparably "sensible" precaution of walking around in an anti-lightning suit to protect myself from probable death/disability, so why bother discarding dollars?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear Mr. Tricky,



(The fact remains that he makes prayers to his "sky daddy", which is in no way skeptical. Sincerely,

S.H. [/B]

Allow me to remind you, Sir Holmes that aknowledging the fact that we are just humans and not super humans and there are times that some of us need to refer to a superior power than ours,is the most skeptical approach to life...especially these days, that it seems that Pure Reason has triumphed.

At least this is how I pray.

[kyuudousha]

Personally, I have always thought that praying was a sort of question-and-answer period between one and God -- the catch being that the answers were wholly subjective, no matter how direct the questions.

Example: one could pray about whether or not he should take a new job, and then, the next day, he sees a news story reporting that the company that offered him a job has just filed for bankruptcy (sic?). Is that an answer to a prayer, or is it just the way things turned out?

And the fact that the entire weekend was sunny but I couldn't enjoy it because I was at work the whole time, and that today, my day off, it's cloudy -- does that mean that somebody's out to get me, or simply that the contrast makes the situation seem like more than a mere coincidence?

Or the classic "street light" phenomenon: people don't take in to account all of the thousands of street lights that DON'T turn off when they pass by. People pay attention to only the ones that do. People make a big deal out of it, but statistically, it almost never happens, right? People are looking for meaning in it.

So, would it be realistic to expect a skeptic -- one who believes in proof and objective fact rather than anecdote and subjective interpretation of fact -- to offer a prayer, and then go around looking for facts that he can interpret as answers? Would it be realistic to expect a skeptic to twist something ambiguous into something meaningful to satisfy a need?

Honestly, I don't think so.

Dear Cleopatra,

Right, and I personally have no problem with prayer.

I am speaking some of the skeptics who would say something like prayer is bunk, woo-woo, irrational, medieval thinking, dangerous, worthless, etc., and who would conclude that prayer is definitely not an activity a real skeptic would participate in.

I've read and heard similar arguments on this board, on others, and in real life.

Sincerely,

S. H.

Originally posted by jimmygun
Obviously they don't.


Obviously they did.....read the week`s commentary.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by kyuudousha
Personally, I have always thought that praying was a sort of question-and-answer period between one and God -- the catch being that the answers were wholly subjective, no matter how direct the questions.

Example: one could pray about whether or not he should take a new job, and then, the next day, he sees a news story reporting that the company that offered him a job has just filed for bankruptcy (sic?). Is that an answer to a prayer, or is it just the way things turned out?

And the fact that the entire weekend was sunny but I couldn't enjoy it because I was at work the whole time, and that today, my day off, it's cloudy -- does that mean that somebody's out to get me, or simply that the contrast makes the situation seem like more than a mere coincidence?

Or the classic "street light" phenomenon: people don't take in to account all of the thousands of street lights that DON'T turn off when they pass by. People pay attention to only the ones that do. People make a big deal out of it, but statistically, it almost never happens, right? People are looking for meaning in it.

So, would it be realistic to expect a skeptic -- one who believes in proof and objective fact rather than anecdote and subjective interpretation of fact -- to offer a prayer, and then go around looking for facts that he can interpret as answers? Would it be realistic to expect a skeptic to twist something ambiguous into something meaningful to satisfy a need?

Honestly, I don't think so.


Nice contribution.. Look forward to seeing more from you..
Welcome to JREF Forums..:)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by kyuudousha
Personally, I have always thought that praying was a sort of question-and-answer period between one and God -- the catch being that the answers were wholly subjective, no matter how direct the questions.


Hello kyuudousha and welcome on board.

No. I don't think that a prayer is what you describe.

In many religions ( allow me to talk about the dogmas of Christianity that I have studied and know well ) it's clear that by praying you don't ask a favour or you don't pose a question but you try to tune your soul to a "superior" power to the existence of some us, believe.

Maybe by praying we try to tune to the superior state of mind that hides in every single one of us. The important is that you refer to someone or something that is out of you...

Personally in my prayers, I ask " God" to help me control myself in order not take the "easy way" ( whatever this might be : succumb to anger, to hatred , to injustice).I also ask to help me realize that however good I am in some things ( my work for example) I have my own limits.

Praying saves me from hubris which always brings nemesis in her turn :)

I don't ask God to show me which is the right way, deep in my heart, I know the right way, I only ask for patience and the power to achieve this state of mind I consider appropriate.

Dear Sherlock.

I have observed too that there are people who confuse scepticism with the spirit of the arena...that's why I keep them in a safe distance and I try not to engage myself in discussions with such persons, because otherwise, I will need to pray to God more than once to help me keep my mouth shut ... ;)

[kyuudousha]

Just a clarification: I don't think that prayer is a REAL-TIME Q&A with God. Not like, I guess, asking God a question and then waiting for an object in your room to begin to glow or something. I guess more like the, "please show me a sign" sort of idea, where it depends on the person offering the prayer to recognize the signs when they appear. I don't think a skeptic can do this.

After thinking a little more deeply into the issue, and from reading some posts here, I think that it might be possible for skeptics to pray in the meditiational sense.

I consider myself to be a skeptic, and an atheist (but if God ever shows up on my doorstep and says, "hey, what gives?", I'll probably change my mind). But I do believe that meditation can be beneficial. Not really in the form of asking a deity for strength or anything, although I see how it can be beneficial. I think that a skeptic, OR a non-theist (not that they're always the same thing), or anybody for that matter can get a lot of benefit from simply "stepping back" from the world, finding a quiet place, and just relaxing, taking the time to untie the knots in the brain (noggin knots?). The human brain is amazing like that. I think maybe the inspiration we need sometimes is right inside ourselves.

Personally, I prefer this approach as it has helped me in the past, and I feel as though I'm taking a more active role in my own life, rather than waiting to receive divine inspiration or strength.

[Cleopatra]

Very nice post :)

I couldn't help wondering where do you come from ( Hey! No need for an answer! It was just me, wondering...)

No, skeptics who pray, don't ask for a sign although ... to be very honest there are moments of dispair you wish you had a sign... but generally you don't ask for such things.

After all , when you are in need for signs, all you have to do, is to bring to your mind this wise poem of this wise Greek who was advising that " There is not way to meet ( during the journey of life) the Lestrygonians and the Cyclops if you don't carry them in your soul..." :)

I think that by praying ,you admit that you are not superman and makes you more compasionate to other humans.

Also, I have observed that while you grow-up the approach towards praying changes. The more you grow-up the more you know why you do it but suprisingly enough, you do it more often as time passes...

C.