Very MAD at Religion

[lyghtningbyrd]

Is it not a known fact or at least assumed to be true beyond a reasonable doubt that the United States and any other country known to have WMD's still lives by the doctrine of 'mutually assured destruction' as a nuclear deterrent? I believe this to imply that we have something similar to secret military bases (or at least missle silos) as do other countries to ensure retaliation even after attack of the mainland...

If so, the only scenerio in which we should truly be afraid of is someone who has WMD's who is just completely ape-**** insane... and even Sadaam wasn't that crazy or he could never have successfully commanded Iraq for the length of time he did.

My conclusion: Tho only people who would be crazy enough to use WMD's (especially against the U.S.), would be a radical religious terrorist group, such as Al Queda.

Because really, if you really think about it, religion is the only thing that will make a human irrational enough to do such things. I think that the problem is not terrorism so much as it is irrational thought brought on by religion -- Someone who believes that by flying into the world trade center, they will be granted membership into "heaven," is INSANE.

And sure, they interpreted the Koran incorrectly, most Muslims will tell you, but I really can't imagine an athiest/agnostic person strapping a bomb to his chest and walking into a market. Believing in the afterlife concept causes people to do unimaginably evil things...

The rebuttal is that not all religious people are irrational and insane.

That's true, but I think religion is certainly a catalyst in assisting an insane person in going over the edge, simply because if they didn't have this reward and promise of greatness after life, they wouldn't do it.

Sorry this ended up being so disjointed, I have severe ADD.

[Dymanic]

Yup.

Dear lyghtningbyrd,


My conclusion: Tho only people who would be crazy enough to use WMD's (especially against the U.S.), would be a radical religious terrorist group, such as Al Queda.

Because really, if you really think about it, religion is the only thing that will make a human irrational enough to do such things. (etc.)


In your first paragraph you said "radical religious terrorist group", but then in your second paragraph you simply, and wrongly in my opinion, shorten it to "religion".


(etc.) because if they didn't have this reward and promise of greatness after life, they wouldn't do it.


I don't like that line of argument, because one could easily say that people who don't believe in an afterlife have no reason to respect life since this is all they have, and they might as well eat, have unprotected sex, and do what they want without any consequences.

Sincerely,

S. H.

[athon]

This is way too oversimplified.

You say "religion is the only thing that will make a human irrational enough to do such things. (etc.)" . Patriotism can do the same. In fact, it is often against human nature to act rationally when faced with a situation they have opposing views of. Do you really think the war in Iraq was about freeing the Iraqi people?

Athon

[lyghtningbyrd]

Originally posted by athon
This is way too oversimplified.

You say "religion is the only thing that will make a human irrational enough to do such things. (etc.)" . Patriotism can do the same. In fact, it is often against human nature to act rationally when faced with a situation they have opposing views of. Do you really think the war in Iraq was about freeing the Iraqi people?

Athon

*Do I think the war was about freeing the Iraqi people?

I did NOT at any point state an opinion concerning the war in IRAQ.
However, while we're on the subject, I do not doubt that the war was MOSTLY about taking control of that oil, which we did an awesome job of.

Anyway, that's not the point at all. You have a good point about patriotism. I think of things like patriotism, and other "isms" as religions, or maybe better - let's call it cults. The plaugue of humans is the need to create cults. Patriotism is a cult. All religions are cults. What's the difference really?

I am NOT a patriot. It's so silly to consider yourself a patriot. It's childish. Why should I be proud of a COUNTRY? What is a country anyway, but an imaginary boundary full of humans, like any other 'country.' How retarded is that?

[lyghtningbyrd]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear lyghtningbyrd,



In your first paragraph you said "radical religious terrorist group", but then in your second paragraph you simply, and wrongly in my opinion, shorten it to "religion".

[/b]

I don't like that line of argument, because one could easily say that people who don't believe in an afterlife have no reason to respect life since this is all they have, and they might as well eat, have unprotected sex, and do what they want without any consequences.

Sincerely,

S. H. [/B]

So "one" would be saying there's a direct symbiosis between religion and morals? If that was the argument I would have to STRONGLY disagree. I'm an athiest, yet I don't murder and rape people, or do bad things. This is because I have something built into my genetic code called GUILT. It is necessary for survival. And to my knowledge, most known sociopaths and murderers were not rational athiests such as myself. They usually had some bizarre notion that God told them to do it, or that they in fact were God.

I don't need an afterlife deterrent (hell) or reward (heaven) to do good things.

Dear lyghtningbyrd,


I'm an athiest, yet I don't murder and rape people, or do bad things.


I'm not an atheist, and I don't do those things either. I'm saying that one cannot make a causal connection between belief/non-belief and doing bad things.

most known sociopaths and murderers were not rational athiests such as myself. They usually had some bizarre notion that God told them to do it, or that they in fact were God.


Do you have any numbers to back that "most" claim up? Also, providing that is true, you don't know if they did it because of their religious beliefs, or in spite of them.


I don't need an afterlife deterrent (hell) or reward (heaven) to do good things.


Neither do some people who have religious beliefs people. Go ask Bidlack or Martin Gardner. ;)

Sincerely,

S. H.

[lyghtningbyrd]

Do you have any numbers to back that "most" claim up? Also, providing that is true, you don't know if they did it because of their religious beliefs, or in spite of them.

:( No. Unfortunately, I do not. And thank you for pointing that fallacy in my argument. I'm not sure if that is correct at all. I think I based that on the fact that Jefry Dahmer and David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz, among a few others were religious, or at least pretended to be, its hard to tell with them. - but that proves nothing anyway. Sorry.

I still think that something like religion is a catalyst for someone who is already insane.

Also, things like "holy wars," and "holy land" wouldn't exist, if the population was athiest.

Well, I think I'm beginning to bore myself... blah..

To each his own I suppose...
I'm going to Jack in the Box - 99 cent menu!! woooooo

[Genghis Pwn]

Great post, lyghtningbyrd. You are correct that religion not only makes people do things like fly highjacked airliners into crowded skyscrapers, it also promotes irrational thinking in general. Why do you think Arab muslims are some of the biggest conspiracy theory buffs in the world? Even when you point out facts that completely shoot down their theories (like that the Israelis plotted and carried out 911, or that the CIA and not Alergian Al Qaeda operatives killed Massoud) they refuse to accept those facts, because logic and reason are of no importance to them.

I doubt very, very much that those 19 highjackers would have done something like 911 based on patriotism, especially in this day and age. It´s the promise of the afterlife that gets people. Humanity needs to move beyond that false promise. It was perhaps helpful 500 years ago, before we knew anything about how the universe works. Now there is simply no place for such irrational beliefs. Look what they can lead to. :(

[lyghtningbyrd]

What's interesting.. I can't help but feel morally superior to the religious person who needs a deterrent or reward to determine what's acceptable behavior...

What do you think about my post in the religion forum?,
Homeless Solution (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19474)

[Genghis Pwn]

lol, that´s interesting. I applaud you for speaking your mind and not caring about lame political correctness. I would love to see churches turned into community centers, where people could seek help and rehabilitation.

[a fantoche de meia]

President Bush says the terrorists are killers whose only faith is hate (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20030513/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_saudi_arabia). You see, true people of faith do not kill. They wear kilts.