One of the stupidest things I ever heard

[Nyarlathotep]

Listening to NPR on the drive to work this morning, I was hearing that many churches are up in arms over the "un-truths" in The DaVinci Code, and that many of them are having sermons and that several books about the story showing the whole story to be untrue have come out and are big sellers in Christian Bookstores.

These people DO know that the book is a work of fiction and not a scholarly treatise, right? What's next, a thorough de-bunking of The Lord of the Rings? Perhaps they will demonstrate that you really CAN'T hit the thermal exhaust port of the Death Star without a targetting computer.

One pastor was talking about how there is no evidence that Jesus was married
This may well be true. There is also no evidence that Frodo and Sam were Gay lovers or that Harry Potter despises bacon. So what?

There was one heartening aspect of the story, though. I heard a preacher say that they have found that boycotts, picketing and calls for bans are ineffective tactics and that it is much more productive to counter what they see as the inaccuracies of this book with books of their own. I really do hope that his views do represent the general opinion of most church leaders. No matter what I may think of their objections to the book, I would much rather see them voice those objections by presenting their side of it, than by trying to prevent people from reading the book.

[tkingdoll]

I believe that in the foreword to the book, author Dan Brown does claim that many aspect of it are factual when in fact they are not.

[Upchurch]

I believe that in the foreword to the book, author Dan Brown does claim that many aspect of it are factual when in fact they are not.
I've also heard that some professional wrestlers don't actually hate each other when they are out of character.

It's true. :)

[tkingdoll]

I've also heard that some professional wrestlers don't actually hate each other when they are out of character.

It's true. :)

I don't get your point.

[TruthSeeker]

Putting issues of faith aside, let's think of The Da Vinci Code as historical fiction. Does anyone know of another case of historical fiction which featured real people in fictionalized scenarios that caused so much angst amongst the survivors/fans/adherents (not sure what to call them!) of the real person?

[writerdd]

There are tons of books just like you describe in the historical fiction genre. The church is just pissed because a) this is about Jesus and b) the book is a bestseller and the movie is no-doubt going to be a blockbuster.

[CFLarsen]

I believe that in the foreword to the book, author Dan Brown does claim that many aspect of it are factual when in fact they are not.
The problem is, he doesn't say which parts are true, and which are not.

[LW]

These people DO know that the book is a work of fiction and not a scholarly treatise, right?

Probably.

Probably they also DO know that among certain new-agey circles the book is touted as being essentially a documentary novel with a real setting and just a tiny bit of fictionary plot thrown over it. A bit like how Mika Waltari's The Dark Angel contains a very accurate description of the Siege of Constantinople with a fictional love story thrown on top of it.

[Upchurch]

I don't get your point.
Call me cynical, but I doubt he actually believes that the facts in his book are necessarily true. I find it more likely that he's playing up the part of "ground breaking heretical author" to drive up book sales.

The man's a fictional novel writer, not a biblical scholar.


eta: Rather, he is a writer of novelized fiction. He is not, himself a fictional novel writer. Stupid grammer

[tkingdoll]

The problem is, he doesn't say which parts are true, and which are not.

Exactly. And that's why churches are annoyed about it. People are credulous enough to see Brown's vague foreword and assume that all of the book is true.

I don't think it's too unreasonable of people to not understand it's completely fiction if the author deliberately misleads them in that direction.

[Nyarlathotep]

I believe that in the foreword to the book, author Dan Brown does claim that many aspect of it are factual when in fact they are not.


Even so, look at The Grapes of Wrath. Many aspects of it are based on fact. The Great Depression was real, the dust bowl was real, the exodus of Oklahomans to California was real. However, I think any complaints that the events of the book are not real would be silly because the book IS a work of fiction. Likewise just because the Templars existed and some of the places mentioned int he book exist, doesn't mean the book should ever be taken as anything but a story.

[tkingdoll]

Call me cynical, but I doubt he actually believes that the facts in his book are necessarily true. I find it more likely that he's playing up the part of "ground breaking heretical author" to drive up book sales.

The man's a fictional novel writer, not a biblical scholar.

Oh, totally. He's a shrewd man, but most people are not shrewd readers. I think it's a little unfair to blame the general public for falling for his spin, though.

[Upchurch]

Oh, totally. He's a shrewd man, but most people are not shrewd readers. I think it's a little unfair to blame the general public for falling for his spin, though.
Going back to my analogy, do you blame the wrestlers when their fans think professional wrestling is real?

On the other hand, there are professional "psychics" who I do blame for people thinking they are real. But I also blame the people who believe them. ...maybe I'm only half hypocritical on this one.

[Kochanski]

I just find the whole situation so very amusing.

As far as I am concerned, let the church get all hissy about this book and movie. If it keeps them busy with something completely trivia and they are too busy to cause harm to real people in real ways by weighing in on other topics I am quite happy. :D

[Nancarrow]

One pastor was talking about how there is no evidence that Jesus was married

Evidence? A religious leader... is... complaining... about... lack of... evid

:faint:

These people DO know that the book is a work of fiction and not a scholarly treatise, right?

No, of course they don't.

Oh wait, you're talking about the Da Vinci Code...

[Lamuella]

Going back to my analogy, do you blame the wrestlers when their fans think professional wrestling is real?


The analogy doesn't totally hold up. At the point where kayfabe was in place, wrestlers actively tried to convince people it was real. Nowadays, they do all but announce how fake it is on TV. They publish books about it being fake.

With Dan Brown, he blurs the line between what he is fictionalizing and what he is presenting as truth a lot more. This is partly because his writing style is dreadful and he spends huge chunks of the book stuffing exposition into his characters' mouths.

[Nyarlathotep]

Evidence? A religious leader... is... complaining... about... lack of... evid

:faint:



Yeah, I found that kind of amusing myself. Amazing how evidnece is so importaint when dealing with things they disagree with but entirely a non-issue when talking about their god.

[Upchurch]

With Dan Brown, he blurs the line between what he is fictionalizing and what he is presenting as truth a lot more. This is partly because his writing style is dreadful and he spends huge chunks of the book stuffing exposition into his characters' mouths.
Okay, if we're going to harp on Dan Brown's writing style (which is a lot more fun), has anyone ever read his book that Da Vinci Code is the sequel to, Angels and Demons?

It's the same damn book, only the subject of the controversy was different.

I read Angels and Demons after Da Vinci Code, because I thought Da Vinci Code was kind of fun. Once I figured out who fit into which role in DVC, there were absolutely no surprises in A&D. I knew exactly who was going to betray who and why. The only value I got out of it was that I now knew who some of the characters mentioned in DVC were.

[CFLarsen]

Exactly. And that's why churches are annoyed about it. People are credulous enough to see Brown's vague foreword and assume that all of the book is true.

I don't think it's too unreasonable of people to not understand it's completely fiction if the author deliberately misleads them in that direction.

People can speculate on which parts that are true, and believe what they want. And, boy, do they want to believe all of it....

Unfortunately, the church is stupid enough to fall for the hype. Each time the church speaks out against the book/film, they feed the frenzy.

[shemp]

I've also heard that some professional wrestlers don't actually hate each other when they are out of character.

It's true. :)

This is a lie! Everybody KNOWS that pro wrestling is real!

[uncy]

Putting issues of faith aside, let's think of The Da Vinci Code as historical fiction. Does anyone know of another case of historical fiction which featured real people in fictionalized scenarios that caused so much angst amongst the survivors/fans/adherents (not sure what to call them!) of the real person?
I’d be willing to wager that this new abomination Flight 93 or whatever, about the 4th plane on 9/11 would constitute bad historical fiction.

[Beerina]

The problem is, he doesn't say which parts are true, and which are not.

Exactly. And many people are reading it and talking about it as if it's real. The author knows this and doesn't dissuade anybody as it's about to be released as a major movie.

Which, in my more cynical moments, I think serves both the church and the newly straying believers both right.

[Just Me]

Putting issues of faith aside, let's think of The Da Vinci Code as historical fiction. Does anyone know of another case of historical fiction which featured real people in fictionalized scenarios that caused so much angst amongst the survivors/fans/adherents (not sure what to call them!) of the real person?
Uh, THE BIBLE!
It seems Jews got the short end of the stick during the plague (xtians felt the plague was a punishment from god. So they killed Jews.).
The 1930's and 40's also seemed RATHER harsh.

[bignickel]

I think my sig makes the point well enough.

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Good sig bignickel!

I suppose because the guy's a cardinal he's commenting on the Da Vinci code and not the Bible? ;)

It's all so confusing ;)

Let me see if I understand - some guy writes a work of fiction, and some other guys get all agitated because it contradicts some other work of fiction?

Yeah - that makes sense. :)

YBW

[7th sextile]

Okay, if we're going to harp on Dan Brown's writing style (which is a lot more fun), has anyone ever read his book that Da Vinci Code is the sequel to, Angels and Demons?

It's the same damn book, only the subject of the controversy was different.

I read Angels and Demons after Da Vinci Code, because I thought Da Vinci Code was kind of fun. Once I figured out who fit into which role in DVC, there were absolutely no surprises in A&D. I knew exactly who was going to betray who and why. The only value I got out of it was that I now knew who some of the characters mentioned in DVC were.

Agent : Danny boy,how's the new book coming?
Dan B : Great! Get this: "Harvard symbologist Robert Langdon is called to
the scene of a murdered old guy who's left him some cryptic clues,
his hottie daughter helps Langdon...
Agent : But,Danny,sweetie,that's the plot of your last book-Angels & Demons,
remember?
Dan B : Whoa! you're right-better make the hottie grand daughter...
Agent: Now you're talking,babe-love it!

( I admit I liked the ambigrams though)

[Upchurch]

Agent : Danny boy,how's the new book coming?
Dan B : Great! Get this: "Harvard symbologist Robert Langdon is called to
the scene of a murdered old guy who's left him some cryptic clues,
his hottie daughter helps Langdon...
Agent : But,Danny,sweetie,that's the plot of your last book-Angels & Demons,
remember?
Dan B : Whoa! you're right-better make the hottie grand daughter...
Agent: Now you're talking,babe-love it!

( I admit I liked the ambigrams though)
Let's play, Guess the Book! Which book might the following line have come from?

Langdon: Hey, I know this reclusive old man who is an expert in the area we are currently involved in. He would never be in league with the people who are after us and the piece of information we are trying to keep away from them.


I'll even give you a hint: the old man provides a lot of exposition.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Listening to NPR on the drive to work this morning, I was hearing that many churches are up in arms over the "un-truths" in The DaVinci Code, and that many of them are having sermons and that several books about the story showing the whole story to be untrue have come out and are big sellers in Christian Bookstores.

These people DO know that the book is a work of fiction and not a scholarly treatise, right? What's next, a thorough de-bunking of The Lord of the Rings? Perhaps they will demonstrate that you really CAN'T hit the thermal exhaust port of the Death Star without a targetting computer.

One pastor was talking about how there is no evidence that Jesus was married
This may well be true. There is also no evidence that Frodo and Sam were Gay lovers or that Harry Potter despises bacon. So what?

There was one heartening aspect of the story, though. I heard a preacher say that they have found that boycotts, picketing and calls for bans are ineffective tactics and that it is much more productive to counter what they see as the inaccuracies of this book with books of their own. I really do hope that his views do represent the general opinion of most church leaders. No matter what I may think of their objections to the book, I would much rather see them voice those objections by presenting their side of it, than by trying to prevent people from reading the book.

Did you also happen to catch the interview with the author of the soon to be released book, Kingdom Coming about the rise of Christian Fundamentalism in gov't?

ed: Book not released after all, here is link for those interested: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393060942/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/102-3994982-8890560?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[WanderinWTF]

does anyone have the letters and symbols for the dvc i want to break it.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Probably.

Probably they also DO know that among certain new-agey circles the book is touted as being essentially a documentary novel with a real setting and just a tiny bit of fictionary plot thrown over it. A bit like how Mika Waltari's The Dark Angel contains a very accurate description of the Siege of Constantinople with a fictional love story thrown on top of it.


despite Browns denials (and yes, I know he won the court case) I think his basic idea was taken from Holy Blood, Holy Grail which purports to be fact - it is a useful exercise in critical thinking to actually go through that book and see if you can spot all the fallacies, the leaps of logic, the "secret source". It's complete twaddle but if you just read it without actuallyc asting a critical eye over it - you could well believe it.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I’d be willing to wager that this new abomination Flight 93 or whatever, about the 4th plane on 9/11 would constitute bad historical fiction.

you were wrong

[westphalia]

What I don't understand is the inability of Christian leaders to learn a damned thing from history. Folks in the 1980s screamed bloody murder over The Last Temptation of Christ, and promptly made a second-rate, art-house film into a pretty profitable and widely-seen venture.

You'd think folks would learn.

[Small Town Jesus]

does anyone have the letters and symbols for the dvc i want to break it.

Sure, here you go:-

nzob nfjt ebob oejb nwfs zsjdi ebno nzlf zcpb sejt cspl foju tbdp
otqj sbdz jufm mzpv innu ibut uvoe tmjl fbhp peje fbgp sbcp pl

[Kopji]

Okay, if we're going to harp on Dan Brown's writing style (which is a lot more fun), has anyone ever read his book that Da Vinci Code is the sequel to, Angels and Demons?

It's the same damn book, only the subject of the controversy was different.

I read Angels and Demons after Da Vinci Code, because I thought Da Vinci Code was kind of fun. Once I figured out who fit into which role in DVC, there were absolutely no surprises in A&D. I knew exactly who was going to betray who and why. The only value I got out of it was that I now knew who some of the characters mentioned in DVC were.

An interesting analysis I read somewhere was that with the ending of the Cold War many of the spy-thriller gendre authors were out of work and/or pressed for book material. The (mostly Catholic) church is a rich source of quirky tradition and mystique and so helps to fill this void.

On the bright side, I think that Churches teaching their members how to evaluate things more critically has gotta be a win win.

Angels & Demons did sort of suck but I did not associate it much with the Da Vinci Code. The plot is similar to an old sc-fi book in which an antimatter bomb is developed. Can't remember the title though.

[HeyLeroy]

I believe that in the foreword to the book, author Dan Brown does claim that many aspect of it are factual when in fact they are not.

Yep, and the Coen brothers have admitted that Fargo was not, actually, based on real events. The shame!

[Meadmaker]

despite Browns denials (and yes, I know he won the court case) I think his basic idea was taken from Holy Blood, Holy Grail which purports to be fact - it is a useful exercise in critical thinking to actually go through that book and see if you can spot all the fallacies, the leaps of logic, the "secret source". It's complete twaddle but if you just read it without actuallyc asting a critical eye over it - you could well believe it.

Brown doesn't deny it. In fact, Holy Blood Holy Grail is cited in the book. The characters and such were Brown's invention, and that's what made the book good.

I finished reading it last night. I liked it, and found it rather clever. I don't think anyone is supposed to believe the story, although Brown clearly wanted to create an air of believability, and profited handsomely from doing so. Nevertheless, he doesn't claim it's true, and I might go so far as to say that he even says you aren't supposed to believe it.

The most interesting thing to me is that Brown really did make a story with some interesting parallels to medieval grail quest stories.

[ChristineR]

It's a very old idea, probably as old as Christianity itself. Sometimes I wonder if it could have been possible that a different Christian sect could have gained the ascendency and burnt all the texts that disagreed with their dogma and generated all sorts of history and theology and literature of its own. Modern Christianity is quite different from what Jesus believed and taught (to the extent that we know that at all), but it all seems very coherent because of the way everything before a certain point was supressed and everything after that point took off like crazy.

[Zep]

The big edit session was in Nicea, I believe. About 300AD? Would have used MS Word 1.0, I believe.

[Beerina]

I think my sig makes the point well enough.

Your avatar looks like a cross between Screetch from Saved by the Bell, and one of the adult Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm's friends.

[Meadmaker]

Thinking about the book, I think the Christians have a much bigger problem than many have thought. A lot of people think that the church's problem is that people might believe the book, or parts of it. I don't think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that people might decide that the book's version of events is a better story than the Bible's version. In other words, people will decide that they like their gods to be married and have children.

The Da Vinci code is a tribute to neo-pagan philosophy, and it has been on the bestseller list for an age. That has to be troubling to Christian leaders.