Does the "Road map" lead to Peace?

[Cleopatra]

President Bush has accepted severe criticism, so far, for not taking innitiatives to solve the Middle East conflict.
To this point Bush seemed to be the complete opposite of Pr.Clinton who during his administration took the matter personally without any true results.

Now, we see that Bush Administration is showing an honest determination to solve the problem.

Last weel the famous "Road Map" was made public.

( You can read it from the site of State Department :http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm )

The Palestinian PM Abu Mazen accepted immedietely, PM Sharon showed some reservations...

What I find very interesting though is not the fact itself that a plan was proposed.
What I found interesting is the various articles I read in the International Press...

For the first time Ariel Sharon is getting severe and serious criticism, even by his friends.

It seems to me that the time has come for some things to clarify.

It's time ofor everybody, to the Palestinian side and most of all to the Jewish side ( especially to the Jews of Diaspora) to decide what future they want for their children.

The most interesting artcle I read was the last Op-Ed of Thomas Friedman which justifies what I told you about Sharon.
read it! It's excellent!

Of course I have many comments regarding the refugess ( there is no way for Israel to accept the Palestinian refugees...) but generally speaking he makes some very interesting points.

With the U.S. having eliminated the most powerful threat to Israel — the regime of Saddam Hussein — one would think Mr. Sharon would pounce on this opportunity. Instead, Mr. Sharon has thrown up all sorts of delaying tactics. Alas, Mr. Sharon is following one of the iron rules of Middle East politics: When I am weak, how can I compromise? When I am strong, why should I compromise?

If this opportunity is lost, it could be the end of the two-state solution. The Jewish settlers will have won, and Israel will de facto retain all the territories. The Arab world will disengage from the whole peace process, and the Iraq war will be interpreted as a U.S. move to make the Middle East safe for Mr. Sharon's housing settlements, not for a peace settlement. The radicals will completely take over in the Palestinian camp. And more and more young American Jews will quietly drift away from Israel, as they see Israel turn from a Jewish democracy to a country where a Jewish minority forcibly


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/opinion/11FRIE.html?n=Top/Opinion/Editorials and Op-Ed/Op-Ed/Columnists/Thomas L Friedman

[CSSMariner]

"Roadmap to peace"?

I doubt very seriously that peace could be found in the Middle East if it were to be equipped with a GPS transponder, and everyone involved had a hand-held GPS receiver. In order for peace to prevail in any situation, all parties involved must be in pursuit of the same goal. Drawing a map assumes there are some travelers who want to know the way.

[a_unique_person]

I have criticised Friedman before for not taking a harder line on Israel, but he agrees with me this time. Sharon has been exposed for what he is, someone who prefers war to peace, to achieve his aim of taking over the West Bank and Gaza, with Palestinians reduced to the status of virtual prisoners inside ghettos.

I also noted an interview with Abu Mazen a few weeks ago in which he said more in one interview that made sense than Arafat could in ten years.

[Cleopatra]

a_unique_person I have criticised Friedman before for not taking a harder line on Israel, but he agrees with me this time

I knew that you had a sense of humor Unique! I knew it! :)

We know when Sharon comes from. He and Arafat are the two sides of the same coin. They belong to a different era, when everything was settled with the power of guns...

I have said it before. What I consider important is that USA Government seems to have decided to control Sharon. These are good news!

Now Peace needs time and both parts will need to prove that they are willing to built trust between them.

I'd suggest the third parts( " Their brothers -The Arabs" - " Our friends -The Zionists") to back off and let us find our way.

I have attended many funerals so far.

I have had enough.

[Cleopatra]

According to the story I post below, PM Sharon has difficulties in "selling" the Road Map to the cabinet.

I believe that a politician's abilities are judged by the way he manages to "sell" ideas or projects for the benefit of his country.

If he can't do this, he has an alternative. He can always resign...


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030524/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

Sharon Faces Challenge Selling 'Road Map'
2 hours, 5 minutes ago

By LISA J. ADAMS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - After reluctantly embracing a U.S.-backed peace plan Friday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon faced stiff opposition from hardline ministers in his Cabinet, where the "road map" to Palestinian statehood could be voted on as early as Sunday

[peptoabysmal]

I fear that the "road map to peace" may have been a politically motivated (like to win votes in the states) action that could cause more harm than good by stirring up emotions in an already unstable environment. The map looks good on the surface, but might be too much, too soon. You know, learn to walk before you learn to run... It took a long time for things to get this way, it won't change overnight.

Just for you Cleo, an old song from my youth :)

Recorded by Barry McGuire, © 1965 MCA Records Inc.

The Eastern world, it is explodin',
Violence flarin', bullets loadin'.
You're old enough to kill, but not for votin',
You don't believe in war -- but what's that gun you're totin'?
An' even the Jordan river has bodies floatin'.
But you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say,
An' can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away,
There'll be no one to save, with the world in a grave.
Take a look around you, boy, it's bound to scare you, boy.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Yeah, my blood's so mad feels like coagulatin',
I'm sittin' here just contemplatin'.
I can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation,
Handful of senators don't pass legislation,
An' marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin',
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'.
An' you tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

Think of all the hate there is in Red China,
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama.
Ah, you may leave here for four days in space,
But when you return it's the same ol' place,
The poundin' of the drums, the pride an' disgrace.
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace.
Hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace,
An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

[Richard G]

I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation.

They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

[Malachi151]

This roadmap, while ambitious, is somewhat problematic. It is problematic because its something that a bunch of Americans sat around ad drew up themselves.

Being a software developer I recognize this roadmap well, its essentially the same thing we do when we want to outline a large project.

The problem is that even with these types of definitions and with Project Management things still slip, and the bigger problem is when people who are not involved in the work define the roadmap.

In this case we have the Bush administration trying to write a plan for peace that is to be followed by the people of the Middle East.

That's like a client writing up a definition for a software development project for and my team of software developers to follow.

Now, this may be a good starting point for discussion for the Israelis and Palestinians, but ultimately I think it will fail.

The question is in judging results.

These things can be forced, but if some of the milestones are met through the forced hand of the Bush administration then will they really be meaningful?

I'll say this, it can't hurt I don't think. Its not like the past 50 years has been productive.

Israel should never have been created in the first place.

Of course the communists (Bolsheviks) were against it, which I think is maybe why they did it :p

Israel was really created because of anti-Semitism you know, the people wanted to be able to get all the Jews out of their own countries and ship them off to somewhere else. The Socialists like Einstein and Trotsky were against it and saw the creation of Israel as an step against the Social Revolution.

The Anglos had divided the Jewish world into two camps, the Zionists and Bolsheviks (simplistic on their part), and they sided with the Zionists.

The real Bush roadmap to peace is Napoleonic.

[Cleopatra]

I repeat that what I consider important about the Road Map, is not existence of a peace plan per se but the fact that the USA government seems determined to catch Sharon by the throat and make him negotiate.
Todays news show exactly this.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Mideast_Conflict

Look at this title : "Israeli Cabinet Narrowly OKs Peace Plan"

As if they dared to reject the plan...They have done it before but according to the News again during the last days C.Rice was in intense talks with Sharon... She was pushing...

Read below ( phrases were stressed by me) : "Israel's Cabinet narrowly approved a U.S.-backed Middle East peace plan Sunday, accepting for the first time a timetable for the creation of an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but also objecting to significant portions of the plan. "It was a historic day," Cabinet minister Tsipi Livni said. "It was not an easy vote for a right-wing coalition. Maybe it's a sign of hope." Last month, the Palestinians accepted the three-phase "road map" to peace, which envisions a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza "

The Road Map plan has many problems indeed but we can't really wait for the old Hawks of War to learn how to walk in that age... We can't wait for anymore . We want peace and we want it now!

Originally posted by peptoabysmal

An' tell me, over and over and over again, my friend,
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction,
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Aenias ( one of the most noble figures in Litterature IMHO) to his companions:

"O socii, neque enim ignari sumus ante malorum,
O passi graviora, dabit deus his quoque finem. . . ."

Oh companions, we are not ignorant of the previous horrors,
and having suffered worse, God will bring also these to an end. . . .

Aeniad,(Book I, ll. 198-199, 208-209)

Thank you very much for the song peptoabysmal :)

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Richard G
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation.

They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

I don't believe that fundamentalist terrorists represent all Palestinians any more than the Klu Klux Klan or the Neo Nazis represent all white people.

The terrorists are nothing but the Mid East version of cross-burners. Killing is so much more satisfying in the name of God or Allah.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Richard G
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation.

They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

And anti-Semitism will not be tolerated on this board.

[Tony]

I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.


With the palestinians indoctrinating their children (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20060&highlight=be+prepared+to+be+disturbed), it is unlikely the next generation will want to make peace with Israel.

[Questioninggeller]

Maps mean nothing if people don't stick to the road. Do I hope for peace? Yes. Do I expect both sides to fail at peace? Yes.

Even if everything happens if favor of the plan, a few suicide bombers will continue to make matters worse for both sides.

I am glad to see Bush step into trying to do something, anything.

[a_unique_person]

It looks like Sharon has managed to make the idiots in his cabinet at least acccept the acceptance of the start of the road map. Even if he does not plan to really accept it in the future, he has to make an act of starting to follow it.

[Cleopatra]

Unique.

Why are you trolling again?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Unique.

Why are you trolling again?

They are idiots if they had to be pursuaded to vote to follow it. I can't believe Sharon had to make them vote that way. To turn it down outright, without even making a pretence of following the road map, would have been political suicide. There are no two ways about it. Part of Blairs condition that he backed Iraq was that the US had to get serious about Palestine. If the whole thing failed right from the start, that would have been the end of British backing for the War Against Terror, which the US desperately craves.

As it is, there will be plenty of chances to pull out or modify it further down the road.

[Cleopatra]

Hmmmm... What do we have here?

Why now? What has he promised them? Of course, if the attacks are to stop it doesn't really matter , it just makes me wonder. What was the promise that was made that couldn't have been made earlier so as to save innocent civilians from both sides?

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=mideast_conflict

Abbas Says Militants May Cease Attacks
1 hour, 38 minutes ago

By LISA J. ADAMS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - The Islamic militant group Hamas could agree as early as next week to halt deadly attacks on Israelis, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said in comments published Thursday, just hours before a summit with his Israeli counterpart to discuss a Mideast peace plan.

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
Why now? What has he promised them? Of course, if the attacks are to stop it doesn't really matter , it just makes me wonder. What was the promise that was made that couldn't have been made earlier so as to save innocent civilians from both sides?
Absolutely the interesting point: what is going on with Sharon? What are the conversations in his kitchen? Oh, to be a fly-on-the-wall there. Sharon didn't use the word "occupation" by accident, even if he's rowing back from it now. And that's just one remarkable event. There are all sorts of plots and strategems and different messages for different constituencies going on, and I for one am flummoxed.
First point I'd make, in case the news overtakes me: I hope Sharon has taken good care of his security. Whatever's really going on, there are plenty of young settlers out there who are going to be out of the loop.

A repeating feature of recent Israeli politics has been the phenomenon of the convinced nationalist gaining power and eventually turning to compromise. Even Begin did it. The reason it happens, to my mind, is the nasty shock of the real. You can be as nationalist as you like - and put your body on the line for it, in some cases - when conviction is all it demands, but there's a matter of sustainability which passion can't dispel. Even after a century the Yishuv still cannot survive without subsidy. And the business of making a 'nation' out of the disparate mix that is the Israeli population has never really been addressed - except by political strategists, who address it by carving out target groups which exacerbates the situation. The security issue was, is and will be (for an indeterminate period) the only thing that defines Israel. In the security issue I include the fear that the US is about to launch pogroms against Jews. After all, we are told, that's what everybody always does.

So is Sharon bending to the economic pressure? At the current moment of crisis we have general strikes being called, which admittedly mostly affects the public sector. But since the public sector accounts for 55% of GDP it has to be saying something. The budget has been passed but it's a billlion (I vaguely recall) shekels short of the originally planned cuts. And the Yanks are poring over the books for some reason. Even George II is getting involved; what the hell is going on here? Cleopatra, your Israeli connections are more up-to-date than mine: is Nixon going to China?

On the other hand, he could just be stalling in the hope that the whole project is about to come to fruition - in his lifetime. Post-Iraq there's no real credible threat to Israel locally - the Syrians know they're hanging by a thread and the Iranians aren't Arabs and have other priorities. It has always been an explicit part of the nationalist Zionist project that Israel must become independently invulnerable. (Thus the early pursuit of nuclear weapons, against US wishes.) Maybe now - or soon, after a rising body-count caused by those damned ungrateful Iraqis - is the time that world opinion can be as outraged as it likes, and the Palestinians can be cleared out. Pushed into Jordan, into Egypt, into Lebanon or the sea, whatever. Who's going to do anything about it?

I'm intrigued.

[renata]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/29/abbas.sharon/index.html

...

Before the meeting, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said he expected a halt to attacks by Hamas against Israelis within a week, an Israeli newspaper reported.

The meeting between Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon -- their second in two weeks -- took place at Sharon's office in Jerusalem.

...
.
Abbas told Ha'aretz he expected to reach an agreement within a week with Hamas to stop attacks against Israelis.

Hamas, a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group, has claimed responsibility for four recent suicide bombings against Israelis and has acknowledged previous attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers. The U.S. State Department labels the group a terrorist organization.





Good news! And for those who said that Arafat had no control over terrorists- one month into his term, Abbas has gotten the most radical groups to agree to stop violence. Does anyone still believe Arafat could not have controlled those groups? Israel did the correct thing by pressuring for PM. And yet Arafat still tries to undermine his PM and the peace process.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_533

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) stepped in to assert Tuesday that he — not his prime minister — is in charge of the Palestinian side in negotiations with Israel, throwing plans for an Israeli-Palestinian summit into confusion.

The dispute underlined the power struggle between Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, the prime minister he grudgingly appointed under international pressure, as efforts to move forward on a new peace plan intensified.

Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) had been set to hold talks Wednesday on implementing the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan — their second meeting since Abbas assumed office in April.

But at a meeting of the PLO executive committee, Arafat said he wanted to review Israeli proposals on security arrangements before approving another summit — raising the possibility of a delay, a member of the committee said on condition of anonymity.

...

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said he had been told the Sharon-Abbas meeting was postponed "for technical reasons." And White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said he "would not be surprised if a bilateral meeting still took place in the near future."

The PLO executive member said that with the jockeying over the summit, Arafat was sending a message to the United States, Israel and Abbas that Arafat makes the decisions over negotiations.

Arafat has been fighting a rearguard action to limit Abbas' powers — objecting to the makeup of his Cabinet, retaining control of most Palestinian security forces and keeping for himself the final word over peace moves.

The law that brought in Abbas in April limits his authority and gives the PLO executive the right of approval over negotiating steps with Israel. Arafat controls the PLO executive, where Abbas is his deputy.

Israel and the United States have been seeking to sideline Arafat, charging that he is tainted by terrorism and has led his Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) into corruption and inefficiency.

[a_unique_person]

"My assessment is that by next week I will arrive at a ceasefire agreement with Hamas," Mr Abbas told the daily Yedioth Ahronoth. "Hamas will commit to halting terrorism both within the Green Line (inside Israel) and in the territories."

But a senior Hamas official said he was not aware of such a deal and the Palestinian leader's failure to secure such a deal with Hamas in talks last week have raised doubts about his chances this time around.



http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/29/1054177671812.html

I think it will be like the NI situation, splinter groups will still do what they want.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I think it will be like the NI situation, splinter groups will still do what they want.

I hope you're wrong, but you certainly have 30 years of history on your side on that prediction.


NA

[Cleopatra]

Warning:

The following post is a reply to Capel Dodger. I don't have taboos when it comes to political conversations (I think CD doesn’t have either) so people who are sensitive to political incorrectness they'd better skip my post, I don't intend to amuse you by violating the forum rules anyway... :)

______________

Capel Dodger, I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue.

What Ariel Sharon and Israel think and wish doesn't really matter right now. If you want to foresee -like a modern Claudius Ptolemy- the future in the area you must set aside your personal "tastes" and examine Hammas and Yasser Arafat.

Sharon didn't use the word “occupied territories” by accident, indeed. Even if somebody hasn't realized immediately that the whole thing was a set-up, the "day after" news must have showed him the truth... Who rebuked Sharon for using the term "occupied Territories" ? The Attorney General (Elyakim Rubinstein) ?? Bwahahahaha, this was a good one.

So, The real question is why? Is it because he is a nationalist who backed off under the pressure of the economical situation, is it for security reasons or it is because " there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews because this what we are told by the Jews who enjoy to victimize themselves"?

Nothing of the above of course. Why to let us be controlled by our hidden desires, tastes and emotions ( " there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews" ) that usually block our judgment and not let ourselves be driven by the common logic instead?

From the one hand, Sharon wanted to show the world that he is a good, obedient boy. It was a favor to our Master, the USA president. Can you picture it? 50 years of bloodshed and none can do anything, everybody is desperate, bombs explode every five minutes in Jerusalem and George W just whistles and the puppies freeze...

On the other hand, however strange this might sound it was a clear message to Hamas and Yasser Terrosist Arafat that Israel has decided to throw the dices for one last time. Sharon won't be afraid to risk his life (I was touched Capel Dodger that you are afraid of Sharon's life though) so as you understand a man who risks to be murdered by his empty headed compatriots, won't hesitate to throw Hamas and Co to the sea and for good this time.

I think that I might vote for him next time, if he is still alive….

I consider this a fair game, don't you think Capel Dodger? They will either come to their senses or they will be History. We really don't give a flying !@$#$%^ about the public opinion.

If not like a clever man, at least as a Brit, I am sure you will understand what I mean. Public opinion doesn’t count the same way democratic referendums and this sort of crap doesn’t mean anything. I am sure you will agree.

As for the fear of pogroms against Jews in the States. To tell you the truth when 11/9 happened, I was afraid that USA would revise their policy towards Israel. Obviously for a moment I must have forgotten how clumsy Arabs are when it comes to strategy and diplomacy and what sort of decadent European royalties have for allies in Europe.

The most interesting point is to guess if George W is going to play “Nixon in China” indeed but… however pleasant our discussion might be, I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog to look after and I will be back later on this :)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Warning:

The following post is a reply to Capel Dodger. I don't have taboos when it comes to political conversations (I think CD doesn’t have either) so people who are sensitive to political incorrectness they'd better skip my post, I don't intend to amuse you by violating the forum rules anyway... :)

______________

Capel Dodger, I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue.

What Ariel Sharon and Israel think and wish doesn't really matter right now. If you want to foresee -like a modern Claudius Ptolemy- the future in the area you must set aside your personal "tastes" and examine Hammas and Yasser Arafat.

......


The most interesting point is to guess if George W is going to play “Nixon in China” indeed but… however pleasant our discussion might be, I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog to look after and I will be back later on this :)

So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
If not like a clever man, at least as a Brit, I am sure you will understand what I mean. Public opinion doesn’t count the same way democratic referendums and this sort of crap doesn’t mean anything. I am sure you will agree.

I appreciate this comment was meant for Capel Dodger, but as a "Brit" myself, I must say I'm mystified.

Care to elucidate, your highness? ;) :D

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.
Would that be:
Palestinians: a range of intentions from establishing a Palestinian homeland to "reclaiming" Israel's territories to driving Israel into the sea (bad analogy--sorree!);
Israel: a range of intentions from securing Israel's sovereignty to extending Israel's borders to the sea;
The UK: exorcising post-colonial guilt;
The US: establishing a permanent military base in the Arab world, either directly or by proxy. And now they've "got" Iraq... Hmmm...

[Jim Lennox]

I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
originally posted by Richard G

I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.
originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Richard G

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

Hmmm... good point. Their comments certainly hover at the boundaires of incitement to violence... Let's be good skeptics and test it.

[Genghis Pwn]

It just occured to me... If W pulls this off, and this roadmap achieves early peace and a Palestinian state looks to be just over the horizon, the 2004 elections could be an even bigger wipeout than Gulf War II.

:D

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.


Not at all!!! At least Sharon means it!!! He will do his best for peace. Read this :

Sharon to Look at Palestinian State
1 hour, 4 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By MARK LAVIE, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told his Palestinian counterpart he would negotiate the creation of a state for the Palestinians if they fight terrorism, setting a guarded but optimistic tone for next week's three-way summit with President Bush

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_598

But let's be serious. Do we believe in miracles? Has kind God turned Ariel from a Hawk to a Pigeon? No, I don't think so...

This is why I said to Capel Dodger that the future of the Palestinians is in Hamas' hands and he'd better focus on that side. I am curious on what Capel Dodger or you Unique or anybody has to say about them...


Billy TK I appreciate this comment was meant for Capel Dodger, but as a "Brit" myself, I must say I'm mystified.

Care to elucidate

Yes I will, without wanting to insult anybody. The British Empire is notorious for the way it treated people in the colonies, ignoring the public opinion.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to welcome the trolls of the forum to our nice conversation. There you go idiots... ruin it.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox

originally posted by Richard G


originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?
did you hear about the Israeli Propaganda: arabs will throw Israel into the sea!! . Now Richard G Exposed the reality.

[patnray]

Based on past initiatives I suspect this is what will happen:

The Israeli's will be pressured into agreeing to unpopular concessions. But before they actually implement them they will embark on a series of provocative acts outside the frame work of the current plan. They will claim surprise that the Palestinians find them provocative, and they will continue to provoke the Palestinians. The Palestinians, locked into a pattern self-defeating behaviour, will play into the Israeli's hands by responding with violence. The violence will then be used by Israel to justify abandoning the original commitments.

It has always worked in the past.

The only way the process can succeed is if the Palestinians can embrace non-violent means to resist the Israeli provocation. I don't see that happening unless the US recognizes the provocation and reaches out to the Palestinians to blunt the impact...

[Pyrrho]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Richard G


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Tony



Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?


As far as the Rules go, it seems so, absent any further clarification by the administrator.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17421

[Denise]

I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

[George152]

Originally posted by Denise
I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

Call 'em cards.. after all, dogs go round in packs:)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Denise
I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

I have been called anti-semitic for criticising Israeli policy using language far tamer than these guys are using about arabs.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



Not at all!!! At least Sharon means it!!! He will do his best for peace. Read this :



Not trying to give you a hard time, Cleopatra, but I have already interpreted Sharon's intentions as installing a Palestinian 'City Council', rather than a real nation. It will presumably have the fence around it, and the people will be clustered in the existing cities, while Isreaeli settlements continue to be built in the areas excised from the West Bank and Gaza. The Israeli army will then pull out, to outside the wall.



EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to welcome the trolls of the forum to our nice conversation. There you go idiots... ruin it.

At last people have started to comment on them.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

It's just a matter of self-respect not to post such things.Sometimes, when we are mad we think worse things than that but we must remember that "verba vollant, scripta manent"...

These things are not nice, they hurt people.

I think that Tony himself will proceed to all the necessary steps :)

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews because this what we are told by the Jews who enjoy to victimize themselves
Not exactly what I said. It implies a dig at Jews, which is hardly what you'll get from me. For the record, my opinion is that traditionalist leaders of the "Jewish community" exaggerate the extent and danger of anti-semitism to counter what they see as undesirable assimilation, and to maintain their own status.

"I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue
The tanks, the gunships, the fighter-bombers, the bulldozers are Israeli. The territorial expansion currently going on is by Israelis. The attacks being launched against Israeli do not remotely threaten its existence or capacity to respond if they wish; the problem is that they do so wish, which is what the bombers want. And Sharon, personally, has been a major participant in the last 50 years of the Yishuv. He has long had a signifacnt following in, and influence over, the military. He even invaded Lebanon without reference to his Prime Minister. He is now the closest thing to a ruler that Israel has ever had. The way that he thinks and acts are crucial. For instance, quite possibly he is the only person who could take the military with him on the road-map. That's what I meant by "Nixon goes to China"; no-one (well, no-one rational - I just remembered Jedi Knight) could accuse Nixon of being soft on Communism, and no-one could accuse Sharon of being soft on nationalism. So they can take the risk.

"From the one hand, Sharon wanted to show the world that he is a good, obedient boy. It was a favor to our Master, the USA president
I really can't see that. Sharon, I'm sure, thinks of the US as soft. They're useful, but they'll be ditched the moment they become an impediment to Israel's plans. I doubt if he thinks a US president can cut him adrift and hope to survive politically. He may, however, get what he wants more easily by making gestures. Whether that's what is going on I can't say.

On the other hand, however strange this might sound it was a clear message to Hamas and Yasser Terrosist Arafat that Israel has decided to throw the dices for one last time. Sharon won't be afraid to risk his life (I was touched Capel Dodger that you are afraid of Sharon's life though) so as you understand a man who risks to be murdered by his empty headed compatriots, won't hesitate to throw Hamas and Co to the sea and for good this time
Of course I'm concerned for Sharon; "every man's death diminishes me". (I can just picture people who know me rolling around at that.) No, I'd have popped the fat f**k myself given the chance, but not right now. If that does happen the results are likely to be calamitous - look at how things have gone since Rabin's murder. Of course it could have the effect of bringing Israelis around to the road-map to honour his work, but that's not exactly how they responded before.

If not like a clever man ..
Tread carefully.

... at least as a Brit ...
By default.

... I am sure you will understand what I mean
Er ... no. But you elucidated for BillyTK :
he British Empire is notorious for the way it treated people in the colonies, ignoring the public opinion
Who ever gave much thought to public opinion in the past, or gives much thought to it now if they don't have to? If you want notorious try the Turks.
But more to the point, only the old and the sad give any thought to the Empire these days, or feels any kind of responsibility for it. I'd estimate that at least 90% of the population have never heard of the Palestine Mandate, and most wouldn't understand an explanation ("League of Nations? Don't you mean the United Nations ...?"). Let history bury its own.

As for the fear of pogroms against Jews in the States. To tell you the truth when 11/9 happened, I was afraid that USA would revise their policy towards Israe
It rarely, if ever, works that way. I find it unimaginable that a US administration would get up and say "Right, you all saw what happened, so we're going to have to cut loose from Israel or they'll do it again". Instead they bombed the Taliban (happy days!). Sharon was going to stop the violence by being much more violent - of course, it didn't work. The Romans tried it on the Messiah-niks in Palestine, but the trouble didn't stop. The Brits tried it at Amritsar; negative effect. In the end, like the Romans, you have to make a wasteland and call it peace. Which is pretty much what's going on in Gaza.

... I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog ...
The weather has just become Mediterranean here over the last few days; I'm only in doing this because I'm over-heating. I also have cats to see to, but not mine and not in the same way. What's the price on three crocodiles, one bull and two cows? That should do the trick ...

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
For the record, my opinion is that traditionalist leaders of the "Jewish community" exaggerate the extent and danger of anti-semitism to counter what they see as undesirable assimilation, and to maintain their own status.

Even if this is true -which is partly true in my opinion-they must not face particular difficulties to achieve their goal ( "maintain their own status" ) when comments like yours appear in fora :)
The attacks being launched against Israeli do not remotely threaten its existence or capacity to respond if they wish;
You are very wrong. Those attacks are carefully designed to destroy the spar of the society, to destroy democracy and freedom of expression in Israel. A month ago I went to Jesusalem for a couple of days -I haven't visited Israel since last September when I spent quite some time there... Those 8 months have turned things even worse... The streets are deserted, people are afraid to go for a drink or even to use the bus.

Arabs have succeeded in building an invisible wall around the Israeli society, a wall that leads to isolation and therefor to death...
So, please...leave the crocodile tears to my crocodiles...
Sharon, I'm sure, thinks of the US as soft. They're useful, but they'll be ditched the moment they become an impediment to Israel's plans. I doubt if he thinks a US president can cut him adrift and hope to survive politically. He may, however, get what he wants more easily by making gestures. Whether that's what is going on I can't say.

You can't be serious. Israel depends totally on USA... What are you talking about? Since both of us share a mutual contempt about the public opinion, I think that all I have to do to persuade you is to remind you how easy is to change the heads of the masses. In USA they master this art .
Of course I'm concerned for Sharon; "every man's death diminishes me".
Yeah right! Courage Capel Dodger!!! :p

Don't worry about Ariel, he knows the rules and he can handle the extremes better than the late Rabin.
Who ever gave much thought to public opinion in the past, or gives much thought to it now if they don't have to? If you want notorious try the Turks.
Ha! When fellow Greeks compare themselves to Turks to imply their superiority I can't help but lifting my left eyebrow ironically Capel Dodger... Comparing yourself with the bottom of the barrel doesn't permit safe conclusions...
But more to the point, only the old and the sad give any thought to the Empire these days
I am not old and not sad at all, thank God but lately I think very often of the Empire for reasons I will present in the thread about the new EU Constitution... Our misfortunes sping from the Empire and the pcychological problems that the Empire has created to its offsprings...
It rarely, if ever, works that way. I find it unimaginable that a US administration would get up and say "Right, you all saw what happened, so we're going to have to cut loose from Israel or they'll do it again".
This is because Arabs are not famous for their intelligence when it comes to strategics... Imagine what would happen if suicide bombers started exploding in Manhattan...
The weather has just become Mediterranean here over the last few days; I'm only in doing this because I'm over-heating.
So, let me drink to the nice British "heat" which made you come here to illuminate us... :p

Don't forget what Justine,Lawrence Durrel's jewish heroine who was living in Alexandria has said about the Mediterranean weather to a man that was complaining about the heat... "You just need a Mediterranean heart to take it " ;) [from the first book of"The Alexandrian Quartet"]
I also have cats to see to, but not mine and not in the same way. What's the price on three crocodiles, one bull and two cows? That should do the trick ...

Capel Dodger you astonish me...remember what Sir Winston has said about cats ( Please don't make any arrogant remarks about Sir Winston...).

Diodorus of Sicily while describing the obsession of Egyptians with cats in the year 1 BC, makes a very smart remark: " Cats resemble to women to many things. The most striking resemblance though, is that both of them enjoy to observe what their master hates most in order to do it to him"

So, those cats in your neighborhood must have observed that you don't wish others to touch your flowers and they give you what they think that you deserve...

I hope that there are no other female eyes that are observing you too while working in your garden for ...even all the crocodiles of the Nile won't be able to save you and your garden...


Unique I owe you an answer.

[Richard G]

Oops.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Not trying to give you a hard time, Cleopatra, but I have already interpreted Sharon's intentions as installing a Palestinian 'City Council', rather than a real nation. It will presumably have the fence around it, and the people will be clustered in the existing cities, while Isreaeli settlements continue to be built in the areas excised from the West Bank and Gaza. The Israeli army will then pull out, to outside the wall.


Ok. Let's take this assumption for granted- who can trust dear Ariel BTW... and see if it's a possibility.

If Sharon thinks that Palestinians will ever accept autonomy instead of independance he must be an idiot...

Palestinians will never accept this and when I say accept, I mean that they are determined to climax the violence if Israelis don't proceed to the complete withdrawal of the Occupied Territories.

Also, I happen to appreciate very much Abu Mazen. I consider him a true patriot and I am persuaded that he would never betray his compatriots by accepting autonomy instead of independance.

Not to forget that President Bush is not only interested in the Jewish part, he needs the Arabs as well.

In any case. Unique this might sound strange but in Israel there are numerous people who don't enjoy the situation and wish that Palestinians have a state of their own and the more important thing is that they won't compromise with the idea of concentration camp within the boarders of the country.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Ok. Let's take this assumption for granted- who can trust dear Ariel BTW... and see if it's a possibility.

If Sharon thinks that Palestinians will ever accept autonomy instead of independance he must be an idiot...

Palestinians will never accept this and when I say accept, I mean that they are determined to climax the violence if Israelis don't proceed to the complete withdrawal of the Occupied Territories.

Also, I happen to appreciate very much Abu Mazen. I consider him a true patriot and I am persuaded that he would never betray his compatriots by accepting autonomy instead of independance.

Not to forget that President Bush is not only interested in the Jewish part, he needs the Arabs as well.

In any case. Unique this might sound strange but in Israel there are numerous people who don't enjoy the situation and wish that Palestinians have a state of their own and the more important thing is that they won't compromise with the idea of concentration camp within the boarders of the country. ]

I have never doubted that there are plenty of Israeli's who want the Palestinians to have their own state, in fact, I think a majority want that. So why is the will of the majority not being expressed?

I read about Abu Mazen the other day, about how the author of the opion piece believed that he would be able to deliver nothing, despite his best intentions, because, as he is caught between the extremists on both sides, he has no authority to make a promise that can be kept.

[Cleopatra]

An article from "The Nation" that oposes the Road Map plan.

Apart from the usual and boring rethorics there is a good point about the absence of a a fixed timetable from the plan.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030609&s=khalidi

[CapelDodger]

Curiouser and curiouser.

This might actually be going somewhere. George II seems to think there's something that can be achieved here that will still be looking good in a year's time. Sharon may be in a vice, or he may - like Israeli leaders before him - be giving way in the direction that the "shock of the real" has pointed him. And Sharon himself may be appreciating that being the man who ushered in an era of peace and viability to the Holy Land after a pathologically murderous career that spans the whole modern Zionist experience ... He's going to get the biggest statue, and the Moon-base named after him. And he can pull it off if he can take the military with him; he'll surely have the political clout.

Best case scenario, of course, is a low-key four-way civil war. (The alternative being, of course, an intense four-way civil war.) The moderate parties on both sides can co-operate and the majority - who want a quiet life - will flock to them. The lunatics will be neutored and efforts will be made to address the needs of several traumatised generations of people (on both sides). Yahweh and Allah get back in their boxes and lions, lambs, all that stuff.

There are other scenarios, but why dwell on them? Except where a wager is involved, of course.

An intriguing question is what the reaction of the fundamentalist Christian Zionists of the US will be if Jews just go over there to lounge around and avoid self-immolation. There's supposed to be an Armageddon booked for real soon now. Maybe they'll start agitating for the Jews to be made to go to Israel?

[Baker]

Looking at the current history of the PA it doesn’t look like a push for peace what will they do with all of these brain washed kids.



“Ask for death” is the message that the Palestinian Authority [PA] has been conveying to its children since the start of violence in October 2000. In June 2002, two articulate 11-year-old girls were interviewed in the studio of official Palestinian Authority TV. Among other topics, they spoke of their personal yearning to achieve death through Shahada – Death for Allah – and of a similar desire they said exists in “every Palestinian child.” It is striking that their desire for death was expressed as a personal goal, not related to the conflict with Israel. Having been convinced that dying for Allah is preferable to life, their goal in living is not to experience a good life, but to achieve the proper death – Shahada.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/reports/Indoctrination_of_Palestinian_Children.asp

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker
Looking at the current history of the PA it doesn’t look like a push for peace what will they do with all of these brain washed kids.




honestreporting? I can find pleny of Israeli freaks too, so what? Is this a freak show?

[a_unique_person]

WARNING Photo of dead child below.









.

Originally posted by a_unique_person


honestreporting? I can find pleny of Israeli freaks too, so what? Is this a freak show?

Heres one child who didn't grow up to suicide.

http://www.jmcc.org/images/crimes/hebbaby.jpg



Crimes committed by Israeli Army and Jewish Settlers
Settlers kill a 3 months-old baby from Ithna village in Hebron



Terrorist settlers committed on July 19, 2001 another barbaric crime against a family from Ithna village in Hebron district; the settlers killed in cold blood three members of one family, including a 3 month-old baby, and injured four others, including a six-month old baby, and a woman who suffers serious injuries. The three martyrs of the crime that was committed at the entrance of Ithna village and 200meters away from the occupation checkpoint are: Mohammed Salameh Tmeizi, 23, Mohammed Hilmi Tmeizi, 22 and baby Dia' Marwan Tmeizi. A terrorist group of settlers calling itself "Committee of Security on the Roads" claimed responsibility for the crime that was committed at 9:00 pm while the family consisting of seven members were returning from a visit to relatives and before they arrived the entrance of the village, a white car with settlers inside opened fire at the car and then escaped towards the occupation checkpoint near Tarqoumia village. Eyewitnesses said the crime was committed under direct and public protection from the occupation army. The victims were transferred to Ahli Hospital in Hebron; four other Palestinians from the same family were also injured in the crime. One of the martyrs, Mohammed, got married recently while his bride received serious injuries.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
[b]WARNING Photo of dead child below.









.



Heres one child who didn't grow up to suicide.
/B]

Another shock photo propaganda pic
AUP you don’t use terrorist as a source of your information you didn’t even provide a link to your article.


Edit to remove image sorry I was just leaving for work when I responded to AUP post and forgot about removing the image from his quote

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger you are soooo biased towards Israel ... but this is your right I guess.

I think that Sharon is not interested in being recorded as the man who brought Peace to the area. He doesn't care about those things... he belongs to a different world where people are dressed in uniforms and they spend their lives holding a gun...

If the Americans didn't put so much pressure on him, he would reject the Road Map within 5 minutes.

I suspect that he counts on the other side's endless aggression and hatred... He expects them to start the violence again and so as he responds in kind...

You seem to be so sure about Israelis but you don't know the Arabs, CD

Have a look here. Hamas couldn't wait even for 24 hours...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030606/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_707

So, I have a worse scenario than yours. Hamas will start the usual and Israel will decide to deal with them for good this time,ignoring pacifists,international public opinion etc. Of course, we will have an outbreak of extreme violence from both sides and the end will be hard to predict.

As long as suicide bombers explode in Jesusalem only, Israel is safe though...

[Baker]

Here is some disturbing facts to add.

As for the crisis in the Middle East, in a wave of sentiment that bodes ill
for the future of the U.S.-sponsored "road map" to peace, Muslims lined up
strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian
people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."
.
The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to
coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85
percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent),
Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).


Perhaps as a consequence, bin Laden was one of the three "leaders" most
trusted by the nine Muslim populations surveyed, outranking even the UN
secretary-general, Kofi Annan. The Qaeda leader's confidence rating was
matched only by Yasser Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation
Organization, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.html

[renata]

Not only could Hamas not wait, but Nobel Peace Prize winner Arafat continues to attempt to sabotage the peace talks.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/05/mideast.reaction/index.html

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
Capel Dodger you are soooo biased towards Israel ... but this is your right I guess.
I call it as I see it. I assemble evidence, evaluate it and consider it's implications unemotionally. The mental construct I have of Sharon is far more complicated than yours. He may have peasant habits but that doesn't mean he isn't a clever and complex politician. He's also an egotist and ambitious. As an army officer he was relieved of his command because the civilian body-count he trailed behind him was simply too embarrassing. As Defence Minister he invaded Lebanon without reference to his Prime Minister. He was found responsible for Sabra and Chatila. And now he's Prime Minister. He's worked his magic on the army, Likud and the general population. If he makes peace now he will be the Great Man of Israel's history. If he fails he could end up just another mark on the time-line of conflict.

If the Americans didn't put so much pressure on him, he would reject the Road Map within 5 minutes.
If he could he'd just truck all the Palestinians into Jordan and Egypt and build a wall around Greater Israel. He can't do that because even the US would turn its back on him and Israel would be left to its own devices. Israel might well be able to survive cut off from the world, but not nearly as comfortably as now. The settlers wouldn't mind, of course, "sacrifice" is a big number for them and materialism isn't, but a lot of other people would be unhappy.

I suspect that he counts on the other side's endless aggression and hatred... He expects them to start the violence again and so as he responds in kind...
It's entirely up to Sharon whether he responds to violence from Hamas. The aim of Hamas is to de-rail the peace-process. They do not represent even a majority of the Palestinians. Allowing their attacks to stop the process is a deliberate decision, and the only motive for that decision is stopping the process. But at the moment, while Hamas has been in negotiations over a cease-fire, the Israeli army keeps attacking Hamas. Why not give it a rest for a week or two? Why provide funerals for the benefit of the rejectionists? On the bright side, Sharon has said that what he requires is 100% effort from the PA, not absolute success in stopping attacks. That gives him options as and when the next bomb goes off.

So, I have a worse scenario than yours. Hamas will start the usual and Israel will decide to deal with them for good this time,ignoring pacifists,international public opinion etc. Of course, we will have an outbreak of extreme violence from both sides and the end will be hard to predict.
An even worse case would involve a split within the Israeli security forces. That could lead to a state of emergency and a military government. Which might well meet strong resistance, and of course the army is mostly reservist. There could be chaos, street fighting, monstrous gangsterism, massacres. Looting of nuclear weapons.

But that's groping towards the worst case, of course, and I'm good at that. The main point to watch, I think, is the attitude of the military, particularly who says what amongst the high-command and the heroes. The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial.

[demon]

"The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial".

Ah yes, sadly somethings never change. Actions by the Palestinians are always immaterial.
The actions of the IDF and Settlers? Just substitute those groups with the US admin here. They are the same animal; that`s where they get the nerve and support to do what they do.
Sometimes it really is that simple even though Occams Razor is a sharp thing to swallow for Israeli apologists.

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon
"The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial".

Ah yes, sadly somethings never change. Actions by the Palestinians are always immaterial.
The actions of the IDF and Settlers? Just substitute those groups with the US admin here. They are the same animal; that`s where they get the nerve and support to do what they do.
Sometimes it really is that simple even though Occams Razor is a sharp thing to swallow for Israeli apologists.

Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian?
The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question.

[demon]

"Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian?
The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question."


Like you blame them?
Didn`t miss it. One of my fav links actually.

[Gem]

Here's another interesting fact from the survey:

Despite the animosity toward America, the survey found "a considerable appetite in the Muslim world for political freedoms," the Pew report says.

http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.html

Let's just hope the Road Map works and change their opinions (On Isreal).

Gem

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon

Like you blame them?
Didn`t miss it. One of my fav links actually.

At least your one of the few terror/ Palestinian supports to admit it all comes down to the destruction of Israel all look forward to CapelDodger replie.

[demon]

"At least your one of the few terror/ Palestinian supports to admit it all comes down to the destruction of Israel all look forward to CapelDodger replie."

If you want to put it in those terms then yes.
I view state terrorism as a greater evil however.
You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears? Just because some fundamentalist fancies building his own house on top of it?
I know how I feel, and I know what I`d want to do about it.

Incidently, why look foward to Cape Dodger`s reply? I`m sure you could write it yourself.

[Gem]

You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears?

The problem with this Isreali tactic is that it doesn't help is PR with the palestenians. To the palestenian civilian who sees an IDF bulldozer destroying a house in a town or camp, that civilian must be pretty angry at the IDF.

To the Palestenian civilian, a bulldozer destroying a house doesn't make them very happy.

Gem

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon


If you want to put it in those terms then yes.
I view state terrorism as a greater evil however.
You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears? Just because some fundamentalist fancies building his own house on top of it?
I know how I feel, and I know what I`d want to do about it.



Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market.

There is nothing on this issue that you can tell that I haven’t already heard I have studied every aspect of the conflict.

[demon]

"There is nothing on this issue that you can tell that I haven’t already heard I have studied every aspect of the conflict."

I`ve heard every kind of Israeli apologist too. Unluckily they have the ear of the deluded establishment.
So long as you think it`s ok to steal people`s land, use collective punishment as a day to day policy and ignore over 60 UN resolutions then the least you can do in return is quit whinning when people get pissed off and fight back.

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon

I`ve heard every kind of Israeli apologist too. Unluckily they have the ear of the deluded establishment.
So long as you think it`s ok to steal people`s land, use collective punishment as a day to day policy and ignore over 60 UN resolutions then the least you can do in return is quit whinning when people get pissed off and fight back.


You mean fight back the almost daily bombings of bus's and markets by Suicide bombers.
I have heard all of the Arab myths.
About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden lets not forget the cheering Palestine's after 9/11
You would think there was no call to destroy Israel by your remarks this is a clip from Palestine TV telling their children to grow up and be suicide bombers.
http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx

[demon]

"You mean fight back the almost daily bombings of bus's and markets by Suicide bombers."

You know this is a fabrication unlike the "daily" subjection of the Palestinians to a degrading and humiliating way of life. Deny this and we really can`t continue on any rational basis.
The whole world sees it and if the USA disappeared overnight then Israel would pay for it.


"About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden"

Your precious country supported him too...why is is bad at one time and not at another? Your seemingly admirable principles are somewhat of a moveable feast eh? No worries.
As I`ve said, I`ve encountered every kind of apologist that walks or indeed crawls upon this earth.

"lets not forget the cheering Palestine's after 9/11"

Oh the famous out of context film? Catch yourself on Baker, it`s me you are talking to. I happen to get my information from other sources than Fox and CNN.

Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?

[Tony]

Originally posted by demon



"About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden"

Your precious country supported him too...


Evidence?

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon


You know this is a fabrication unlike the "daily" subjection of the Palestinians to a degrading and humiliating way of life. Deny this and we really can`t continue on any rational basis.
The whole world sees it and if the USA disappeared overnight then Israel would pay for it.

Your only source for your information comes from the Arabs who support the worst terrorist in history who also openly admit the destruction of Israel.



Your precious country supported him too...why is is bad at one time and not at another? Your seemingly admirable principles are somewhat of a moveable feast eh? No worries.
As I`ve said, I`ve encountered every kind of apologist that walks or indeed crawls upon this earth.

Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim?


Oh the famous out of context film? Catch yourself on Baker, it`s me you are talking to. I happen to get my information from other sources than Fox and CNN.

Wrong once again

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

" No, CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 -- a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles. The person who made the claim quoted above has since recanted.


Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?

Could you explain what the Nakba is?

[Baker]

Originally posted by demon
"Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?

As shown in another thread.

This is a link to the direct translation of the New Palestinian Textbooks if anyone can dispute this please do however MEMRI has an untarnished reputation of their translations.

http://memri.org/book/MEMRI_Book_PGS.pdf
Pages of important interest.
page 14
page 20
page 28
page 43
page 64

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger

I call it as I see it. I assemble evidence, evaluate it and consider it's implications unemotionally. The mental construct I have of Sharon is far more complicated than yours. He may have peasant habits but that doesn't mean he isn't a clever and complex politician.

No. I won't defend Sharon, in fact, I don't need to defend Israel's PM either, although he is elected. It's important to me to be consistent when approaching the issue so, I will repeat that we must see things in their historical context. Sharon was what Israel needed back then. Whether people like it or not, countries are not built by holding the Cross to the right hand and the Gospel to the other. Israel's boarders are the result and not the cause of the war.

The Arab-israeli conflict started before WW I when the national states of Europe refused to nest the Jews within their borders and this is a fact.

If he could he'd just truck all the Palestinians into Jordan and Egypt and build a wall around Greater Israel.
This is not a valid argument Capel Dodger. It doesn't mean anything to me since the opposite side wants exactly the same for the Israelis.

The settlers wouldn't mind, of course, "sacrifice" is a big number for them and materialism isn't, but a lot of other people would be unhappy.

This was mean. Do you think that it's a matter of materialism(sic)? You know, Brits are not the only people on the earth who have a national pride... Israelis have such a pride too.
It's entirely up to Sharon whether he responds to violence from Hamas. The aim of Hamas is to de-rail the peace-process.
No it's not up to Sharon, because a government is elected to protect its citizens, it can't stay numb , watching its citizens dying in the buses, in the markets, in the bars...
BUT as a pacifist myself I think that we must not respond to violence... of course I have been proven an idiot by the facts many times...
They do not represent even a majority of the Palestinians.
Who do you think that represents this majority
An even worse case would involve a split within the Israeli security forces. That could lead to a state of emergency and a military government. Which might well meet strong resistance, and of course the army is mostly reservist. There could be chaos, street fighting, monstrous gangsterism, massacres. Looting of nuclear weapons.

Sorry but these are not serious things. You seem to ignore, when it's convenient to you, the human factor and idealism. Why? Israelis are not a bunch of... vagabonds!
The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial.

I dissagree but I guess that we have to wait to see that.

Tell me something else, if you wish. Why people who live so far away from Israel are so passionate with the whole issue. Do you think that I was right when I said that in Middle east two groups of people have taken up the responsibility to clear the "old debts" of humanity?

[CapelDodger]

From Baker:
Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian? The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question.
I hadn't even noticed it. The answer, fo what it's worth, is yes, I did miss the link. I really can't imagine why looking for links provided by you would ever be a priority for me.

A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify?

From demon:
Incidently, why look foward to Cape Dodger`s reply? I`m sure you could write it yourself.
That statement might be actionable. I have a more extensive word-font for a start, not to mention a different understanding of grammer and spelling.

from Baker:
This is a link to the direct translation of the New Palestinian Textbooks if anyone can dispute this please do however MEMRI has an untarnished reputation of their translations.
Untarnished meaning you've never actually caught them out yourself? Your interpretation of the original Arabic and theirs has never diverged?
Does anybody else out there know much about this MEMRI entity?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger

A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify




It would signify that you are wrong when you are claiming that Hamas doesn't represent the majority of the Palestinians.

[Baker]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
I hadn't even noticed it. The answer, fo what it's worth, is yes, I did miss the link. I really can't imagine why looking for links provided by you would ever be a priority for me.

A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify?


It shows a very negative trend the rise of fundamentalism in the Islamic world.


That statement might be actionable. I have a more extensive word-font for a start, not to mention a different understanding of grammer and spelling.


I'm not doing a book report just replying to messages I don't rely on lectures to make my point just the facts.



Untarnished meaning you've never actually caught them out yourself? Your interpretation of the original Arabic and theirs has never diverged?
Does anybody else out there know much about this MEMRI entity?


MEMRI uses exact translations meaning no one has disputed the claim you are welcome to do your own research.

[CapelDodger]

From Baker:
I'm not doing a book report just replying to messages I don't rely on lectures to make my point just the facts.
Writing coherently and making a point unambiguously are ends in themselves. Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. Book reports (if they're like essays) are not just an artificial hurdle, producing them is supposed to teach you something.
MEMRI uses exact translations meaning no one has disputed the claim you are welcome to do your own research.
I realise that, but the scenario that goes "somebody else does it for me" sells to me better.

[demon]

Baker, another apologist quote as always:
"Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market."


By Amira Hass - Haaretz June 8, 2003
BEIT HANUN, Gaza - Ahmed Za'anin's house now looks like some 1,200 other Palestinian homes: a pile of rubble. On May 18, at about 7 P.M., IDF bulldozers knocked down four houses, one partially, which belonged to the extended Za'anin family, in Ezbat Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip.

Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family
of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed
men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.


But this time, the IDF Spokesman's Office had no
records of the demolition of the four houses, so
it did not have any explanation for why the
Za'anin homes were destroyed. "We don't demolish
houses for no reason. Maybe there was shooting
there, maybe there was involvement in terrorist
activities," Haaretz was told. But the fact
remains: The same force that sent a bulldozer or
two and, as the homeowners watched, demolished
their homes, did not find it necessary to report
the action to the IDF Spokesman's Office.

To the same extent, there was no record of the
Za'anin family having heard a nearby explosion,
in a street controlled by tanks and armored
personnel carriers, at around 6 P.M. that day.
About 20 minutes later the family, which was
sitting in the living room, heard the noise of
the churning bulldozers.

"Suddenly we saw Jews in the house," said Amana
Za'anin. An officer and soldiers entered through
a breach they opened in the wall of the house.
They aimed their weapons at the family, and
ordered them out. According to the family, they
were not allowed to take anything with them. Not
even the mother's head covering. The student
daughter cried she didn't want to leave without
her books and notebooks. Her parents said that
they had to drag her away from "under the
bulldozer."

Yesterday, the IDF Spokesman's Office said "On May 18, there was an explosion caused by a jeep
hitting a land mine. Anti-tank rockets were fired
at the forces and then the unit shaved away the
remains of a building that was already
demolished, and was uninhabited." The seemingly
updated information was far from the truth that
was evident to the naked eye on the scene.

Is one supposed to deduce that the decision to
demolish the building was made on the spot, and
by the force, as an immediate reaction to the
explosion and the anti-tank fire, and the IDF
Spokesman's Office knew nothing of that? Israeli
society, including the High Court of Justice,
accepts the demolition of Palestinian homes as
just, and therefore self-evident. It's a short
step from there to the fact that three-and-a-half
houses were destroyed by the army without the IDF
Spokesman's Office, the first address for such
information, knowing anything about it. Is that
why the demolition unit was confident of its
actions and of not reporting them?

Ezbat Beit Hanun is the western neighborhood of
Beit Hanun, where the IDF has been operating
since May 15, to prevent the firing of Qassam
rockets at Sderot. In the first days of the
operation, 10 rockets were fired from the Beit
Hanun area, six in the direction of Sderot. In
the last 10 days, the rocket fire has ceased.

The Za'anin houses were built beside the main road
in Gaza - Salah a -Din - which passes between the
neighborhood and the city center. One of the
buildings was still under construction. According
to the Za'anin family, during the demolition, a
goat shed was destroyed; some of the goats were
crushed under the heavy machinery. Storehouses
were demolished as well as some farm equipment,
including a tractor. A well-preserved 1960
Mercedes was destroyed, as were beehives that
were dragged and crushed, now scattered among the
rubble. More than 50 people lived in the four
houses, and now they are crowded in with
relatives and neighbors. They cannot cross the
street - not even the oldest among them - to
reach the city. The tanks prevent that passage.

Five Palestinians were killed by IDF fire on the
first day of the Beit Hanun operation. Two armed
men were killed when they tried shooting at the
tanks. They were killed outside the city. Two
youths, aged 15 and 16, who threw rocks, were
killed inside the city. And 14-year-old Mohammed
Za'anin was killed. He and his family didn't know
that an IDF force had taken up a position in the
next-door house. At the end of the first day of
the IDF takeover, the Za'anin family went up to a
little bridge that connects two parts of their
compound, to see what was going on around them.
Mohammed, the son, was killed - shot in the head.
On May 18, another boy, also 14, from the Jabalya
refugee camp was killed. He apparently was one of
those who threw stones at the tanks that besieged
the city.

Children climb the ramparts beside the tanks. Some
fly kites, others try a kind of Russian slingshot
roulette: When will the tank fire back at their
rock-throwing? Thus, in the first days of the
operation, between 10-20 children were wounded
every day, for throwing rocks at tanks and APCs.
On June 3, a Palestinian policeman was killed 400
meters west of Salah a-Din Street. A bullet hit
him in the head as he stood at his post. His job
was to prevent armed Palestinians from
approaching Israeli positions.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Worth repeating:
Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.

yeah right.


Denise: Here is a link to the full article http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/51391.php

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
It would signify that you are wrong when you are claiming that Hamas doesn't represent the majority of the Palestinians.
I think that's a very wide interpretation. Opinion polls that are done - and they are, and hats off to the people that do the stats - amongst Palestinians give a 40-50% "we don't think Hamas are crazies but ..." rating. I have respect for the people that are doing these surveys. When it comes to Palestinians who would claim primary allegiance to Hamas, not the PA, there are results in the 20-30% range, mostly in Gaza but not even a majority there. And if it came to a civil war, that support would fall away to a core of maybe 10%? Probably less. Hamas - a minority - could be cast in the role of dupes, those who destroyed Palestinian solidarity by their own intransigence, to the benefit only of their enemies.

Today's attack has interesting implications. It was remarkably successful. (That'll bring me grief: attack, success, achievement of objective, there's no value-judgement implied.) It has been claimed jointly by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa (as of CNN reports not long ago). And it took place outside Israel against a military target. This could be the basis of a cease-fire declaration by all three organisations. Which would stir things up a bit. It would have to happen very quickly to work.

The best prospect for Hamas (the main player) is to tell its people to bury their guns and work strictly politically, maintaining their support and building more if the peace process fails to deliver. Once the guns are buried they will not be brought out again until some incident triggers the order. The main political objective then becomes ensuring that incident never happens. Not an easy business when there are extremists on both sides, but a majority of Palestinians and a majority of Israelis should be able to achieve it. It has worked in Ireland.

The recent history of Macedonia should be an inspiration, although I don't suppose it will be. There you had people on both sides that longed for conflict, and pressed all the usually-effective buttons, but the majority refused to buy into it. The Macedonians had the example of what had happened in the rest of Yugoslavia, but then the Palestinians have had the experience right on their doorstep. There has to be a majority for peace and a normal life.

[Baker]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
From Baker:

Writing coherently and making a point unambiguously are ends in themselves. Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. Book reports (if they're like essays) are not just an artificial hurdle, producing them is supposed to teach you something.


You’re over emphasizing this extensive word-font of yours.
Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. :rolleyes:
All this time I have been trying to use facts and evidence when all I needed was just to speak more woolly.


I realise that, but the scenario that goes "somebody else does it for me" sells to me better.

Can you show me where I claimed to personally do the translations?
Are you familiar with the fallacy Poisoning the Well?

[CapelDodger]

All this time I have been trying to use facts and evidence when all I needed was just to speak more woolly.
It's like giving a baby a razor-blade to play with.

Anyway, it seems that Sharon has looked into the abyss of peace and didn't like what he saw. (This assumes he's actually in control of events, which is probably the case.) The rate of demolitions seems to have increased in the last few weeks - it's hard to be sure, of course, since observers aren't welcome. In fact, are liable to get shot. Assassinations continue during cease-fire discussions. And now the good old favourite: rockets fired into a city street. At least the White House seems to have protested strongly, although Fleischer is trying to row back from that. The names of Rice and Powell are prominent, which is a good sign - the State Department bunch getting ahead of the Pentagon bunch, perhaps. The best we can hope for is that the response is targeted at the Israeli military.

[Baker]

Originally posted by CapelDodger

It's like giving a baby a razor-blade to play with.

Anyway, it seems that Sharon has looked into the abyss of peace and didn't like what he saw. (This assumes he's actually in control of events, which is probably the case.) The rate of demolitions seems to have increased in the last few weeks - it's hard to be sure, of course, since observers aren't welcome. In fact, are liable to get shot. Assassinations continue during cease-fire discussions. And now the good old favourite: rockets fired into a city street. At least the White House seems to have protested strongly, although Fleischer is trying to row back from that. The names of Rice and Powell are prominent, which is a good sign - the State Department bunch getting ahead of the Pentagon bunch, perhaps. The best we can hope for is that the response is targeted at the Israeli military.

Hamas set their fate when they refused to lay down their arms.
Israel was targeting a Hamas political leader the same terrorist that vowed to continue terrorist attacks on Israel civilians so I don’t blame Israel on this one.
I haven’t been able to find any stories on any demolitions including demon’s article the story he posted wasn’t in haaretz archives for June 8.
If you have a link to the article Demon please post it.

[NoZed Avenger]

The endless waltz.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by demon
Baker, another apologist quote as always:
"Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market."


By Amira Hass - Haaretz June 8, 2003
BEIT HANUN, Gaza - Ahmed Za'anin's house now looks like some 1,200 other Palestinian homes: a pile of rubble. On May 18, at about 7 P.M., IDF bulldozers knocked down four houses, one partially, which belonged to the extended Za'anin family, in Ezbat Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip.

...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Worth repeating:
Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.

yeah right.

This is exactly what I have been talking about right from the start, and part of the reason for the picture I put up. Ordinary civilians are being punished and coralled day by day. The Israelis know exactly what is going on, they are creating ghettos of misery and desperation.

Note how the inhabitants are removed. No deaths, no headlines. But a remorseless process of invasion continues.

[Denise]

Demon, I tried to pm you but your box was full. We can't put entire articles up, just portions. I snipped the last paragraph from the article and provided a link. It's always nice to provide a link for people anyhow. Thanks!

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


This is exactly what I have been talking about right from the start, and part of the reason for the picture I put up. Ordinary civilians are being punished and coralled day by day. The Israelis know exactly what is going on, they are creating ghettos of misery and desperation.

Note how the inhabitants are removed. No deaths, no headlines. But a remorseless process of invasion continues.

Well then, perhaps you can provide a link to the story looking through their archives for June 8th doesn't show the article he posted.

In fact, these are the only articles posted for that day.


Sunday, June 08, 2003 Sivan 8, 5763
News


U.S. observers due, as Abbas talks with Hamas leadership


By Aluf Benn, Arnon Regular and Nadav Shragai

A U.S. team, under the leadership of envoy John Wolf, is expected to arrive in the area today or tomorrow to begin observing the implementation of the road map by both the Palestinian Authority and Israel.


Bush's determination surprised Israel


By Aluf Benn

U.S. President George W. Bush's resolve to move the Israeli-Palestinian peace process forward surprised many Israelis, who believed that the current administration in Washington fears stepping into the Middle East quagmire and will make do with diplomatic lip service only.


Analysis / Sharon to face the music at Likud meet


By Yossi Verter

In his heart of hearts, perhaps Ariel Sharon would like to get onto the podium in the Binyanei Ha'uma congress hall today, look the delegates in the eye, hush them with a characteristic wave of his arm and demand: "Who is for ending the occupation? Lift your hand!"


Iran denies claims it failed to safeguard nuclear material


The Associated Press

Iran has not breached any nuclear nonproliferation protocols and was unperturbed by U.S. claims to the contrary, an Atomic Energy Organization of Iran spokesman said yesterday.


Meir Vilner dies at 84


By Joseph Algazy

Meir Vilner, the last living signatory of Israel's Declaration of Independence, died Thursday morning at the age of 84. Vilner served as leader of the Israeli Communist Party (and subsequently Hadash) and was its representative in the Knesset for some 40 years.


Inner strength and special skill


By Ruth Sinai

Zion Guhari's suitcase is ready, and so is his carry-on - both in the corner of his room in his parents' Nahariya apartment. Over the bags is a shelf full of medals and cups that he has won in various table tennis competitions, including a silver and a bronze from an Olympiad four years ago.


Two killed near Jerusalem believed to be terror victims


By Jonathan Lis

The Jerusalem Police increasingly attribute the murder of the two Israelis found stabbed to death last Thursday in a wood close to Moshav Even Sapir to a terror attack.


Mofaz, Yesha Council to meet


Haaretz Staff

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz will meet in the coming days with the leaders of the Yesha Council of Jewish Settlements of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District in an effort to persuade them to voluntarily evacuate the 12 illegal outposts that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon undertook to dismantle at the Aqaba summit.


Histadrut rallies to protest pension cutbacks
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/LiArt.jhtml?contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&daysBack=08%2F06%2F2003

[Baker]

Originally posted by Denise
Demon, I tried to pm you but your box was full. We can't put entire articles up, just portions. I snipped the last paragraph from the article and provided a link. It's always nice to provide a link for people anyhow. Thanks!

Thanks Denise and I look for over an hour for that page.


Usually, the IDF Spokesman's
Office reports why a house was
demolished: It was the family
of an arrested terrorist, a
wanted terrorist, a dead
terrorist, the house was used
to shoot at soldiers, the
neighborhood sheltered armed
men or tunnels, the house was
built without a permit.

But this time, the IDF Spokesman's Office had no
records of the demolition of the four houses, so
it did not have any explanation for why the
Za'anin homes were destroyed.

But this time, the IDF Spokesman's Office had no
records of the demolition of the four houses, so
it did not have any explanation for why the
Za'anin homes were destroyed. "We don't demolish
houses for no reason.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=300656&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


I e-mailed the editor to see if there are any updates on the story and see if they confirmed why the house was demolished.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


Thanks Denise and I look for over an hour for that page.




I e-mailed the editor to see if there are any updates on the story and see if they confirmed why the house was demolished.

I think the real reason was that they just couldn't be bothered coming up with a lame excuse this time.

[CapelDodger]

And Hamas and Sharon are now gleefully scratching each other's backs, with the PA left out in the cold. So much for optimism. Now the IDF are seeming to say they have been planning a major series of assassinations, and no peace process was going to get in the way. Settlements are being dismantled and put straight back up again - I wonder, will ten settlements taken down five times become fifty settlements removed? Time to find out if the US commitment means anything. Angry words from Powell might put a scare into some people, but then the Israeli Foreign Office apparently wasn't even warned of yesterday's attacks so they aren't likely to exert much influence. Another sad day.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I think the real reason was that they just couldn't be bothered coming up with a lame excuse this time.

This is Amira Hass’s reply to my e-mail

actually, there was an ommission in the english edition: they did not translate the correct, final hebrew version, where i also printed a second answer: that the only house which was demolished was already hald-destroyed and un-inhabited.
they were busy for one day in finding out more, but then an attack against soldiers took place and more houses were demolished in this area.

[CapelDodger]

Guardian Article (http:///www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,975538,00.html)

Keep an eye out for the public comments of the generals and the heroes. Always in the light of how much of the population is Russian, and how many recent immigrants there are.

From the article:
"The assassination attempt also brought stinging criticism from generally less hostile quarters. A group of 25 retired generals, who had planned to publish a newspaper advertisement today in support of Mr Sharon's commitment to the creation of a viable Palestinian state at last week's summit with President George Bush, cancelled the notice after the failed assassination.

Perhaps the blatant brutishness that Sharon finds necessary to placate his (in his perception) most dangerous audience is too great for placation of the real great danger - the majority, living-in-Israel, ordinary people who want a normal life. To quote an Israeli parliamentarian:

"It is question rarely asked by Israel's Jews, and almost never in public. But yesterday one member of the Israeli parliament, Roman Bronfman, cautiously wondered if the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, did not have Jewish blood on his hands. In carefully couched terms, he raised the question after the militant Islamic movement Hamas responded with its favourite weapon - the suicide bombing of civilians - to Israel's botched attempt to kill its political leader. "It is necessary to examine government policy which may not have been helpful in progressing the "road map" and seems to have taken us back to death, pain and sorrow," Mr Bronfman said

Perhaps the best hope is in the anger of the Israeli people. If that really starts to tell - and general strikes by public workers realising that the iron rice bowl they were promised is history, a 55%of GDP public sector and new generations in the diaspora who aren't buying the "Israel is the victim" line any more suggest that it will - a whole new situation could easily appear from the smoke. A situation that includes a majority of Israelis and a majority of Palestinians putting down the rest, and giving up the past and the absolutism in exchange for a better future.

The actual behaviour of the US may not turn out to be that crucial. The internal dynamics of Israel are the crux. If the US turned off the money tap today, Sharon could continue on whatever path he's chosen for months or years. If Israeli reservists just stopped turning up, in large numbers, the rule of law is screwed and the government falls. Lets face it, the government system was never designed to be stable except when there was one unquestionably dominant party. Which was supposed to be Labour, ben-Gurion's legacy, but the rights of inheritance turned out not to be a sufficient argument. A party has to keep track of what the constituencey becomes, not what the program says they will. This may all seem a little arcane, but it is actually very pertinent to the current situation.

The democratic system of Israel is supposed to reflect the views and interests of the people - it's a prominent claim of Israel that it is democratic. So if there is good evidence that the will of the majority is being flouted a major claim on the loyalty of the diaspora will be lost. And that represents a very large capital flow; just what it represents in relation to the US subsidy is a a mystery, but I would be surpirsed if it wasn't at least equivalent. The diaspora is changing demographically, just like every other societal group, and the new generations don't have the same buttons to press. I would venture to suggest that fundie Christianity is more Zionist than under-35 Jews in the US right now, and those Jews don't think the Christians have suddenly fallen in love with the Christ-killers. In truth, the greatest threat to large numbers of Jews today is from Christianity - just like it's always been. How far is it from "the Bible has given them that land" to "they don't belong here"?

Sharon may get squeezed between a rock and a hard place. To keep the non-fundies on-side he has to appear as something the fundies won't accept. As a result, he may be removed by a pragmatic majority. It could be the only solution - after all, Arafat has been removed in all but name, and Israeli Prime Minister is a famously transient post. The whole position of Prime Minister - President was neutered in the constitution - is experimental, having been non-elected then elected then assassinated then non-elected again, all within a decade or so.

Starting to get optimistic again.

I will now read recent posts and probably lose that feeling.

[Cleopatra]

Hey Capel Dodger!

Do you think that Thomas Friedman lurks here and steals my ideas for his articles? :) :cool:


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/15/opinion/15FRIE.html

The Reality Principle
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Have you noticed how often Israel kills a Hamas activist and the victim is described by Israelis as "a senior Hamas official" or a "key operative"? This has led me to wonder: How many senior Hamas officials could there be? We're not talking about I.B.M. here. We're talking about a ragtag terrorist group. By now Israel should have killed off the entire Hamas leadership twice. Unless what is happening is something else, something I call Palestinian math: Israel kills one Hamas operative and three others volunteer to take his place, in which case what Israel is doing is actually self-destructive. [...]

The fact is, the only time Israelis have enjoyed extended periods of peace in the last decade has been when Palestinian security services disciplined their own people, in the heyday of Oslo. Unfortunately, Yasir Arafat proved unwilling to do that consistently. The whole idea of the Bush peace process is to move Mr. Arafat aside and replace him with a Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, who is ready to rebuild the Palestinian security services, and, in the context of an interim peace settlement, corral Hamas.

and look how he concludes

Because if the two sides cannot emerge from this dead end, then you can forget about a two-state solution, which is what both Hamas's followers and the extremist Jewish settlers want. They each want a one-state solution, in which their side will control all of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The one-state solution would mean the end of the Zionist enterprise, because Israel can rule such an entity, in which there would soon be more Arabs than Jews, only by apartheid or ethnic cleansing. It would also mean the end of Palestinian nationalism, because the Israelis will crush the Palestinians rather than be evicted. That is the outcome we are heading toward, though, unless the only reality principle left, the United States of America, really intervenes — with its influence, its wisdom and, if necessary, its troops.



:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Cleopatra]

And this is what the "opponents" think about Friedman's article.

I know that this will sound cheap from my part but after reading this I can't help thinking that there is a good reason for their not having a country still...

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1610.shtml

Illuminating Thomas Friedman
M. Shahid Alam, The Electronic Intifada, 17 June 2003

A webpage on Thomas Friedman, maintained by Farrar, Straux & Giroux, declares that as the foreign affairs columnist for the New York Times, he is in a "unique position to interpret the world for American readers. Twice a week, Friedman's commentary provides the most trenchant, pithy, and illuminating perspective in journalism." [...]


Consider his column, "The Reality Principle," from June 15, 2003. With a quote from an Israeli political theorist, Yaron Ezrahi, he argues that only the United States, "an external force," can rescue the Israelis and Palestinians from their self-destructive war against each other. United States of America is the "only reality principle." Only United States can save the day "with its influence, its wisdom and, if necessary, its troops."

How illuminating is this?

Is United States altogether "an external force" in its dealings with Israel? This is not a subject that any politician or mainstream columnist, concerned for his or her career, can safely bring into the public discourse. It is much safer to take the position that Israel is a client state of the United States, a strategic asset that polices America's friends and foes alike in the oil-rich Middle East. This is also the premise behind Friedman's description of United States as the "only reality principle" in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

[NoZed Avenger]

This is not an intellectual post -- no surprise, given the source.

This is also not a considered opinion or any "real" position held by me. But it was a visceral reaction when the latest rounds of bombing and retaliations began after the announcement of great progress, etc etc.

It came to me as a theory as I sat in my car feeling the horrible - but not unexpected - sinking sensation when the first round of (successful) violence after the meetings was given play on the radio. Not unexpected, because -- lets face it -- how many times have similar accords and agreements and attempts and ideas have all been blown to hell?

Here's the theory that flashed into my head for a full half-minute: "They just like killing each other. They just like it. Its been 30 years and 3 million meetings and 3 billion words and people keep dying and they -just- -must- -like- -killing- -each- -other-. Build a %^%$ wall $%^^# fifty feet high around the whole thing and let 'em at it, because it will never stop; they JUST LIKE KILLING EACH OTHER."

It took 30-40 seconds before reason took over and that irrational response was exorcised from my head. I was left with a terrible sadness; I also felt guilty for allowing that emotional reaction when I am thousands of miles away and not having to deal with the reality of it.

I just wish someone could prove the theory wrong. I wish to God someone could prove it wrong.

NA

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
And this is what the "opponents" think about Friedman's article.

I know that this will sound cheap from my part but after reading this I can't help thinking that there is a good reason for their not having a country still...



It is an opinion just as valid as any other. Is the US policy manipulated by Isreal? You only have to look at the influence of other successful lobby groups to see that this is so.

Friedman is writing from his own point of view. A country that is threatened by advanced American subsidised weapons is going to see things differently.

As for whether or not this means they are not entitled to a country, on the basis of what one person writes, is not really fair. I can find you any number of loony, fundamentalist Zionists who would make this guy sound like Gahndi.

[Cleopatra]

Oedipus: " Catharsis? What is the ritual of catharsis and which is its process"?

Kreon: " By ostracicm or by retaliating blood with blood..."

[Sophocles, Oedipus Rex]

Nozed Avenger

No, none is enjoying killings but there is so much blood that has been accumulated over the years,that everybody feels obliged " to retaliate blood with blood"

When the second Intifanda broke out, after Sharon's visit on Mount Temple, palestinian guerillas entered a police station in Hebron, grabed two Israeli soldiers and lynched them.Afterwards, they dipped their hands in their blood and they showed them to the screamming crowd...This was a very ancient ritual and the message was clear to those they knew some History... This time, this Intifada, wasn't about the Liberation of Palestine only,it was about paying old debts...

You know, when you have lost your child, regardless whether you are a Palestinian or an Israeli, you want the blood back. Nothing can satisfy you as much as seing the responsible dead or exiled.

I am afraid that many people on both sides have crossed the borders and they have moved to the land of endless hatred. The Road Map might proceed but you must not really expect that the killings will stop just like that.

To many people-on both sides those killings are a debt that they must pay. This is very sad but very true , I am afraid.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

As for whether or not this means they are not entitled to a country, on the basis of what one person writes, is not really fair. I can find you any number of loony, fundamentalist Zionists who would make this guy sound like Gahndi.

The reason I mentioned that sometimes I have the feeling that they do not deserve a country, is because they insist on critisizing what they Israelis or Jews say, instead of composing an opinion on their own.What do they think? What do they want?

The Palestinian part desperately needs a palestinian Friedman, somebody who will " sell" their agenda to the West and will have the status to criticize the palestinian leadership too.

This is how business is done in our days and not by pulling bombs.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Nozed Avenger

No, none is enjoying killings but there is so much blood that has been accumulated over the years,that everybody feels obliged " to retaliate blood with blood"



I know. Its been going so long and been so bloody that I find it hard to summon any hope when new announcements are made.



I am afraid that many people on both sides have crossed the borders and they have moved to the land of endless hatred. The Road Map might proceed but you must not really expect that the killings will stop just like that.

To many people-on both sides those killings are a debt that they must pay. This is very sad but very true , I am afraid.

I didn't expect an end to the violence. There are extremists on both sides -- with Hamas and two or three similar organizations being the more prominent and less fettered of those -- that want to derail the peace process and will double their efforts to inflict casualties or harm on the other side.

I think what saddened me more than the initial news was the automatic reaction -- immediate reprisals and promised reprisals. I understand the need for both sides to "respond," and to avoid looking like they are just going to let the other side run roughshod over them -- but it all leads back to the same, oh-so predictable dance.

As individuals, people are making choices that may well make sense. Collectively, it leaves everyone in the same quicksand that has swallowed every peace initiative to date.

The sands are hungry; the sands will never be satiated.

NA

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
(I've only read your quotes from Friedman, not the full article)

I agree with Friedman (no surprise), but I also sympathise a little with the idea that the Israeli is the tail wagging the US dog on occasions. That said, when the US takes matters seriously they can get results. Unfortunately the results tend to be undermined when attention wanders (and US attention does wander). That is Friedman's substantial point.

Getting a solution without outside interference would be extremely difficult, given the nationalist and religious passions that have been roused. There are those on both sides - as ever, in this kind of up-close, communal conflict - who declare any deal unacceptable after what the enemy has already done. Apart from anything else, even negotiation is "rewarding terror" to these people. You see the same kind of thing in Northern Ireland.

The only solution is to give a majority of both parties good reasons for believing that a better future is possible if a deal is done. If those majorities can co-operate and bring real change and improvement in peoples lives the ultras can be at least marginalised.

I'm sure there's a majority in Israel for an end to conflict, and a majority amongst the Arabs. Unfortunately Sharon doesn't seem to represent the Israeli majority in this, and he - like many who post to this forum - chooses to view Hamas as the Arab representative, not the PA. It seems increasingly unlikely that the Sharonistas want peace. That means the Israeli majority for peace need to change the regime - which, in a democracy, should be possible.

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
This is how business is done in our days and not by pulling bombs.
Absolutely right. Arab culture has its head stuck way up its fundament, and seems determined to shove it ever deeper. This has been going on since the 13th CE, so the posture is getting pretty painful by now.

[Cleopatra]

Now what???

You see what I was telling you. Why now? What promises did they get? Immunity? Of course I strongly doubt if anybody can control the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades ...


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030627/wl_nm/mideast_dc_534

Hamas Says It Decided to Suspend Attacks on Israelis
By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas said on Friday it had decided to suspend attacks on Israelis, but a senior Israeli government source said any truce with the Palestinian militant group would not be "worth the paper it was written on."

[CapelDodger]

Celopatra:
Of course I strongly doubt if anybody can control the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades ...
Al Aqsa were actually late-comers to suicide-bombing, so we can probably expect them to stop such attacks. Their stated aim is the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, not the end of Israel. Israeli withdrawal will go some way towards satisfying that.

Hamas are the more problematic movement, since there is some question as to how unified its Gaza and West Bank parts are.

There is also the possibility that there will be a lot of Palestinian casualties in the near future. Also any claims that are made that Hamas has been "beaten" will be dangerous.

All that being said, it looks like there is progress. There also seems to be a continuing US involvement at a high level, with Condoleezza Rice taking an active part. This is all good news.

[Gem]

Probably one of the biggest obstacles to peace is words. A single statement, at the wrong time, could ruin the peace effort. Also, mistranslations cannot and should not be tolerated.

Gem

[CapelDodger]

On the surface thinsg seem quite promising, but there are some worrying signs.

Israel defies peace plan with land grab on West Bank (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,989903,00.html)

And guess what:
Israeli army chief attacked for victory claim (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,990468,00.html)

To quote from the land-grab story:
The first phase of the road map requires Israel to stop confiscating Palestinian property and to freeze all settlement activity. It also obliges Israel to stop demolishing Palestinian homes - but yesterday an Israeli official accompanied by soldiers was touring Beit Eksa and Beit Souriq, marking out the confiscated land and handing out demolition orders.

Israel as a state seems to have no sense of obligation to stick by agreements. Is there too much pressure not to sign? OK, we sign, but we don't feel obliged to stick by it. No wonder Sharon was smiling Mahmoud Abbas.

Mr Sharon's spokesman was not available for comment. Officially, the land was seized under an Ottoman empire law permitting the confiscation of abandoned property. The Israelis say the original owners fled to Jordan in 1967, and have not returned - and so forfeit their properties.
This should at least put to bed the argument about Arabs being deliberately evicted in 1948.

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger

It seems that we have a problem indeed. I kinda knew it, that's why in my very first post in this thread, this is what I wrote. This is what I expected from the Road Map Plan. I did not expect magical solutions. I 'd hope that it would be a good start for people- at least in Israel- to use their brains, for a change :

Moi, from the my first post in this thread:
It seems to me that the time has come for some things to clarify.

It's time for everybody, for the Palestinian side and most of all for the Jewish side ( especially to the Jews of Diaspora) to decide what future they want for their children

So. If they want the War and bloodshed to continue , they know the infallible recipe...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Capel Dodger

It seems that we have a problem indeed. I kinda knew it, that's why in my very first post in this thread, this is what I wrote. This is what I expected from the Road Map Plan. I did not expect magical solutions. I 'd hope that it would be a good start for people- at least in Israel- to use their brains, for a change :

Moi, from the my first post in this thread:


So. If they want the War and bloodshed to continue , they know the infallible recipe...

And as I have also pointed out, like in Norther Ireland, even if the majority wants peace on both sides, it only takes a few renegades with no wish for peace to keep the kettle boiling.

The worry about the land grab that Capel refers to is that this was an official, Isreali government act.

[CapelDodger]

From AUP:
... even if the majority wants peace on both sides, it only takes a few renegades with no wish for peace to keep the kettle boiling.
But it needn't boil over if the majorities on both sides are determined that it doesn't. In this particular case it may be that the current Israeli executive doesn't share the majority view. If that is the case it will be interesting to see how the Israeli political process handles things. Will it be necessary, for instance, to resort to Ottoman laws to keep control with the Sharonists? I'm not sure if such laws are actually aplied to Jewish Israelis.

[Cleopatra]

How can the Road Map Plan work when the American President doesn't exercise his power to bring this shameful fence down?

Last June, C.Rice visited Israel and she expressed her concerns regarding this... fence, concerns that they were adopted by the US President.

Now, after Sharon's visit to the White House, the wall becomes "a delicate matter that should be re-examined".

I could never imagine that the President of a Democratic country like USA, finances and supports a Wall of shame but yet, it happens.

As long as this wall exists, we cannot expect a peaceful co-existence of Israelis and Palestinians in the area.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nyt/20030730/ts_nyt/sharontellsbushisraelwonthaltitsfenceproject


Sharon Tells Bush Israel Won't Halt Its Fence Project

[...]But more than any other issue on the table today, it was the fence also referred to as a wall or a security barrier that illustrated the mistrust still permeating relations between Israelis and Palestinians. The structure, concrete in some places, wire in others, already wraps around portions of the West Bank and ultimately could be hundreds of miles long.

Israelis say the wall is a way of keeping suicide bombers and other attackers out, but it has been excoriated by Palestinians for pushing deep into what they consider their territory, dividing communities and penning them in. Even some Israeli commentators have raised questions about the usefulness of the barrier and about whether it is in effect creating new borders that give up land Israel would like to keep.

The fence is not referred to specifically in the latest peace plan, known as the road map. But it has increasingly come up in the last month as the United States mediates between the sides. On a trip to the region in June, Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites), the national security adviser, heard complaints about the wall from Palestinians, and passed them along to Mr. Sharon, who politely rebuffed her, American and Israeli officials said at the time.

On Friday, after meeting with Mr. Abbas, Mr. Bush raised the subject in remarks to reporters, and when questioned about it, said, "I think the wall is a problem," adding that he had already discussed it with Mr. Sharon.

Mr. Bush said on Friday that it would be very difficult to develop confidence between Palestinians and Israelis "with a wall snaking through the West Bank."

Today, Mr. Sharon brought the subject up when the two leaders appeared before journalists in the Rose Garden, indicating he was willing to stand up to Mr. Bush on issues he considers vital to Israel's security.

"The security fence will continue to be built, with every effort to minimize the infringement on the daily life of the Palestinian population," Mr. Sharon said. [...]

[Baker]

That’s right shame on Sharon for stopping easy access to the suicide bombers!

[CapelDodger]

Sad to say, the only interpretation of events that makes any sense is that Sharon and his people have no intention of pursuing peace. Settlements expand, confiscations continue, there's no ceasefire on the Israeli side, and life is not going to get better for the Palestinians. Just like post-Oslo, the Zionists are simply going to continue their program of establishing a Jewish majority on both banks of the Jordan. A program sanctioned by their religion. If the Palestinians can be conned into being quiet while it happens, so much the better (as from post-1967 to the first intifada, and post-Oslo until the second). When full-scale conflict - it hardly counts as 'war' - breaks out the Palestinians will yet again start from a worse position.

Whether or not Israel can hold together while this goes on - for another generation at least - is yet to be seen. On balance, I doubt it.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Sad to say, the only interpretation of events that makes any sense is that Sharon and his people have no intention of pursuing peace.
Unlike, the Palestinians, of course.

PA wants Saudis to continue funding Hamas (http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2003/august/08_10_2.html)
Militants rearm under cover of Israel truce (http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/international.cfm?id=872692003)

[Cleopatra]

How many leaders this Hamas has?

Israel is killing a couple of them every week for months now, haven't we finished with them yet?

Does Israel chase the leaders of the terrorist group Hamas or it's the Mosaic Law that rules this country?

[svero]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
How many leaders this Hamas has?



Well.. leaders when? They could have as many as there are members. If you kill the president the vice president takes his place and so on.... Why would they ever run out? When there's just 3 members left someone will still be calling the shots no?

[Cleopatra]

In order that Israel justifies those military operations it claims that the targets are only the leaders of the terrorist groups.

As you can imagine, one doesn't become a leader of such a group in a week... so the question remains, how many leaders this organization has?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
In order that Israel justifies those military operations it claims that the targets are only the leaders of the terrorist groups.

As you can imagine, one doesn't become a leader of such a group in a week... so the question remains, how many leaders this organization has?

Good point Cleopatra, and the answer from Hamas was loud and clear.

I think the response to the title of this thread, so far, is that no-one has actually started down the road yet.

A rag tag bunch of extremists is hard to control at the best of times. However, the IDF is supposed to be a professional, disciplined organisation. What is supposed to be the purpose of these assasinations? What is the military goal that they will achieve?

[svero]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
In order that Israel justifies those military operations it claims that the targets are only the leaders of the terrorist groups.

As you can imagine, one doesn't become a leader of such a group in a week... so the question remains, how many leaders this organization has?

There's an organization hierarchy no doubt. As leaders are killed the next in line becomes a leader. I was basically making the point that I think these claims of targeting leaders are mostly propaganda. I doubt there's any real measure of who a leader is before these assasinations are carried out. I assume the value of killing these people is something else entirely, like their knowledge of chemistry and bomb making etc... or maybe even for purely political reasons like an attempt to end the cease fire.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

I think the response to the title of this thread, so far, is that no-one has actually started down the road yet.

I heard someone on the radio this morning say that any attempt by Abu Mazen to rein in the terrorists would 'kill' his government. The Middle East: where metaphor and reality collide.

I think the problem is that it seems that no-one has the will, and/or the ability to deliver what the Road Map requires of them. By the way, the US State Department has the text of the Road Map here (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm) - it's useful to check the wording to see what it actually says, rather than what the two sides interpret it to say.

Some important bits of Phase I (which was supposed to be fully implemented by May of this year):

* GOI [Government of Israel] takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.

also:

* GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.
* Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).
Is much of this happening? Sharon is known as the champion of the settlers, but lest we forget: it was he who made the decision to remove settlers from Sinai as part of the peace deal with Egypt. Equally, post-Oslo, settlements expanded under Labor as well as Likud. So, it's not a Likud-specific problem and the precedent is there. It's not impossible that the settlement issue could be dealt with.

However, in an interesting series of articles (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3145365.stm) on this subject on the BBC (cue the boos and hisses) news website there was this rather sobering quote from Shlomo Avineri, of Hebrew University:
"There are very few precedents in history where 8% of a population has been moved, which makes the reality of this happening - regardless of the legal arguments - highly problematic."
Now for the Palestinians. The relevant bits of the Road Map are:

* Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.

* Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.
This pretty much speaks for itself. In passing, it may be worth noting that there is nothing about prisoner releases in the Road Map.

There is no provision for short-term, conditional ceasefires, that is not the Road Map. Does anyone seriously think that Abu Mazen ever had the clout, let alone the will to dismantle the terrorist organisations? As a result, the Israelis feel entirely within their rights to take out the terrorist 'leadership' themselves: the Road Map proscribes only attacks on civilians. However, their controversial assassination policy would be considered by most reasonable people to "undermine trust".

And this is still only Phase I.

Everyone knew this bird wouldn't fly without the US leaning heavily on both sides in the new Middle East. Unfortunately, the new Middle East is looking quite a lot like the old one, and the USA's attention is currently elsewhere.

[Cleopatra]

Fair analysis. I agree and I have to add a couple of points.

Since the events in Jenin in last April, I got this strange idea that the Middle Eastern conflict is not about Middle East anymore but about the struggle of two regimes -the regime of the military Israelis represented by Sharon-and the regime of Islamic Palestinians represented by Arafat (although Arafat himself is far from being a fundamentalist it's just that these are the only groups that supported his corrupted administration) -to hold the power over their people.

As months passed this idea was confirmed and now with the Road Map Plan I think that it's obvious to everybody what is going on in Middle East.

From the one hand we have Sharon and Co that resist with all of their strength to the upcoming changes ( because there will be a change and I take bets on that) and on the other hand we have the Palestinian Fundamentalists that they are not ready forget and forgive( because as an Israeli I feel that we must apologize and to ask for forgiveness( although forgiveness is not accepted by Judaism) for the endless occasions we crossed the lines and we took "unnecessary measures" as an occupying force...)

One way or another, whether we like it or not, we will have a Palestinian State really soon and the problem for both groups is what their position will be in this State. Of course, as I have repeatedly suggested, in order to arrive to this point we need a really tragic and serious event to occur, an event that will be so serious that will make USA to withdraw its trust from Sharon and his policy ( I just hope that this won't be the murder of another politician...)

The most tragic of all, is the point--maybe the only point--that Capel Dodger and I have agreed with in these endless conversations; once the war is over, both countries will get involved in terrible civil wars and the civil war amongst Israelis will be one of the fiercest humanity will have ever witnessed.

And of course you know who has the power to prevent such an eventuality from occurring; yes the Jews and the Israelites of Diaspora.

[a_unique_person]

Abbas has just resigned, blaming Arafat for not relinquishing control over the military.

[Cleopatra]

This development is scarry and the future unpredictable.

Those hypocrites (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/06/mideast.euministers/) that have been doing nothing but boycotting Abu Mazen by helding side-talks with Yasser, now are lamenting for the future of Middle East.

Shame on them, they carry serious part of the responsibility for what happened.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
This development is scarry and the future unpredictable.

Those hypocrites (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/06/mideast.euministers/) that have been doing nothing but boycotting Abu Mazen by helding side-talks with Yasser, now are lamenting for the future of Middle East.

Shame on them, they carry serious part of the responsibility for what happened.
I don't think this development caught anybody off guard. Abbas' willingness to compromise caused him to be viewed by the Palestines as the lapdog of the US. Once that happened, he was toast. To the Palestines, appearance is everything and they must not appear to be giving up any concessions. The only way this peace is going to happen is if the treaties are negotiated in secret and not made available to Hamas and other resistance fighters. The messages must come to "hold off", but no reason can be given. If they lose face, in their minds, they have lost everything.

Regardless of what you think about Arafat's morals and behavior, one must admit that he plays the Palestines like Van Cliburn plays a piano.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Tricky

Regardless of what you think about Arafat's morals and behavior, one must admit that he plays the Palestines like Van Cliburn plays a piano.
He may not look so skilful if the Israelis decide to expel him, which Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz had already called for earlier this week.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tricky

The only way this peace is going to happen is if the treaties are negotiated in secret and not made available to Hamas and other resistance fighters. The messages must come to "hold off", but no reason can be given. If they lose face, in their minds, they have lost everything.

In 1995 Abu Mazen along with Yossi Beilin after participating in secret negotiations, put together the plan that is known as the Abu Mazen-Beilin peace plan (http://www.palestinereport.org/sect/people/shik.html) . According to the Palestinian source I am attaching here :

It is not very clear whether [Palestinian leader Yasser] Arafat himself had seen the document or whether he was consulted.
President Arafat mustn't have been aware of the secret talks ( Israelis suggest that he wasn't for sure) .

Why? Because Arafat and Hamas are one thing devoted to one single cause;the extinction of Israel.

I agree that President's Arafat influence on the people of Palestine is strong but leaders are judged by the effective solutions they provide for the sake of their people.

So far Arafat has achieved very little for the Palestinians. He has made them enemies with the Lebanese, he keeps them in refugee camps like animals, he supports terrorism that leads nowhere.

As I have said before Arafat, like Sharon belong to the past but where they differ is that Sharon was elected whether we like it or not.

I hope that Israel doesn't expel him. It will be a gross political mistake.

Now during the previous months that Abu Mazen was struggling to keep himself in the position of the PM , EU proved its deep anti-semitism by supporting Israel's worse enemy. EU did everything possible to undermine Mazen. European leaders were visiting Israel and the occupied territories and they were meeting Arafat instead of the PM, as a result Sharon refused to accept them and the bridges between EU and Israel were cut.

Pity. EU doesn't lose opportunity to show that the State of Israel ( one of the biggest mistakes in the post WWII History) was nothing more than a necessity.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


In 1995 Abu Mazen along with Yossi Beilin after participating in secret negotiations, put together the plan that is known as the Abu Mazen-Beilin peace plan (http://www.palestinereport.org/sect/people/shik.html) . According to the Palestinian source I am attaching here :

President Arafat mustn't have been aware of the secret talks ( Israelis suggest that he wasn't for sure) .

Why? Because Arafat and Hamas are one thing devoted to one single cause;the extinction of Israel.



I don't know that I agree with this. I think Arafat sees himself as the next Nelson Mandela, only, he is no Nelson Mandela. He can't rule his troops, and as soon as he had the chance to settle into a life of peaceful beauracratic bliss after the Camp David accord, promptly went to sleep at the wheel.

[Cleopatra]

Since we are looking for the factors that either promote or block Peace, read this article from "Electronic Indifanda".

I particularly enjoyed the opening paragraph :

The resignation of the first Palestinian prime minister should surprise no one. The whole scheme was no more than an artificial arrangement intended to serve far more hidden, dangerous purposes than those sanctimoniously declared. It was artificial because Mahmoud Abbas was neither the choice of the Palestinian people nor that of the Palestinian Authority president. Instead, Abbas was imposed by the Americans and the Israelis to implement a plan, the elements of which were harmful to the cause of peace, harmful to Palestinian interests, and contradictory to any of the patrons' claims of introducing democracy and reform to the Palestinian institutions.

http://electronicIntifada.net/v2/article1899.shtml


I wish to the Palestinian people to make better choices to their ...next elections...
:rolleyes: