WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS !!

[Someone]

The Date: yesterday
The time : at midnight
The location : Riyadh city in Saudi Arabia
The event : series of explosions in four American compounds
The result : Death of many innocent people .

Today , the first thing I heard when I wake up was the news of the explosions . In the beginning, I felt sort of sad for all of these people who died in this terrible accident although I didn’t know any of them , but just the fact of hearing a death news made me feel so sad . But after that , when I heard that the people who performed this event were Saudis I really felt angry. Just why in God's sake will they do something stupid like this ?? even if they hate America and their sick of its rule , this doesn’t give them the right to judge and give the order to kill innocent people in that disgusting way !! and for what ?? what have they done to you ?? what will killing them change in the world's situation ?? what kind of message are you trying to send ??
Many questions I wished I could find their answers in what happened but I really failed . Can't they see that their showing the world the wrong view of eastern people?? That they are just a bunch of terrorists who are fond of killing and love the scene of blood , specially innocent blood ?? Sorry , but we are not like this .. and I'm saying this for everyone in this world who see as from that view .. WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS .. and these guys who are doing this stuff to you had never presented us , Arabs, and they will never do . Maybe you'll say I'm making no sense and my words are illogical , but please , just open your eyes a little , try to hear the news from it's proper origin maybe at the end you'll figure out the truth .
I apologize if my words didn't receive any acceptance from you , but believe me I feel as much anger as you and just for your information, the victims of the explosions weren't only Americans , because a Saudi girl I used to know lost her brother ( who had had a baby twins just a week ago ) in the explosions.




:

[Skeptical Greg]

Unfortunately, one evil human can give all humans a bad name...


I share your sadness...

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by Someone
Sorry , but we are not like this .. and I'm saying this for everyone in this world who see as from that view .. WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS .. and these guys who are doing this stuff to you had never presented us , Arabs, and they will never do .

Great letter, nice to hear from a different perspective. Thanks for speaking up.

[Tmy]

Dont worry about it Someone. Your covered as long as the Saudi goverment is Ok with the US government . Shoot, most of the 911 killers were Saudi's yet we were trained to hate the Iraqis. So as long as your not Syrian, Iranian, or Palistinian, your OK.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tmy
......yet we were trained to hate the Iraqis. .

We were?

Guess I was out sick that day...:rolleyes:

[Someone]

thank you all for the replies , but I have a question for Tmy ..

what do you have against Syrian, Iranian, or Palestinian people???

[Cleopatra]

Maybe he doesn't like the food. I wonder the same myself.

Why someone can hate Syrians, or Iranians or Palestinians...They are such good and peace loving people.

Don't get upset Someone, people are crazy these days....

[subgenius]

Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the Forum. Please stay and participate. We need more different voices.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Someone
thank you all for the replies , but I have a question for Tmy ..

what do you have against Syrian, Iranian, or Palestinian people???
Actually, I think Tmy was being sarcastically critical of some people in the US, who chooses some Arabs to like and some to hate. I honestly don't think Tmy meant to insult you.

[Tmy]

Trickys right someone. Im just joking.

Welcome to the board. Heres a bit of advice, dont get offended by what people say here.

So............are you Irainian!!!!!! Confess and we will punish you less severely!! :D

[Dancing David]

Thank you Someone. Please continue to post.

Peace

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Someone
thank you all for the replies , but I have a question for Tmy ..

what do you have against Syrian, Iranian, or Palestinian people???

The fact that Iran, Syria, and the Palestinians, between them, harbor most of the genocidal terror groups in the world right now, which are actively engaged in a genoicdal war to wipe out the "evil jews" and "American infidels" off the face of the earth--with the generous financial and ideological help of Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations.

To use a metaphor, if the USA was a person, it would have been a millionaire wall street man; India would have been (I suppose) a poor mystic; France, a hedonistic drunk. But Iran, Syria, and the Palestinians would have been homocidal maniacs.

[aca]

Originally posted by Skeptic

To use a metaphor, if the USA was a person, it would have been a millionaire wall street man; India would have been (I suppose) a poor mystic; France, a hedonistic drunk. But Iran, Syria, and the Palestinians would have been homocidal maniacs.
Interesting, what, individually, would Canadians, Serbians, Israelis, Germans, etc. be?

Someone, welcome. The media gets it wrong most times. I think they feel they have to lay every blame at SOMEONE's feet. Don't take it personally.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


The fact that Iran, Syria, and the Palestinians, between them, harbor most of the genocidal terror groups in the world right now, which are actively engaged in a genoicdal war to wipe out the "evil jews" and "American infidels" off the face of the earth--with the generous financial and ideological help of Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations.

To use a metaphor, if the USA was a person, it would have been a millionaire wall street man; India would have been (I suppose) a poor mystic; France, a hedonistic drunk. But Iran, Syria, and the Palestinians would have been homocidal maniacs.

And Jews would have had big noses.

[peptoabysmal]

My guess is that fewer Americans were killed in this attack than those from other countries. That's the trouble with random killing. I'm sure that al-Qaida took "credit" for it, even if they didn't do it. It could have just as easily been the Mujahedeen.

Someone, it's going to take people like you to pull the Middle East out of it's current nose-dive. The rest of the world would really rather not have to amputate the Middle East to save itself, but terrorism is growing like a cancer.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


And Jews would have had big noses.

Israelis not just Jews :)

Now we have a country to host our big noses ...

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Someone

I apologize if my words didn't receive any acceptance from you , but believe me I feel as much anger as you and just for your information, the victims of the explosions weren't only Americans , because a Saudi girl I used to know lost her brother ( who had had a baby twins just a week ago ) in the explosions.


Well, the reason this happened in Saudi Arabia is because the government and people of that country have allowed Al Quaeda to exist there. Maybe now the Saudi's will take the war on terror a little more seriously.

I'm glad to hear your input Someone, but if you really want to make a change, start at home. You are preaching to the choir here.

[athon]

Someone,

What most people don't understand is that the way of life and the socio-political environment of most countries is different. There is a superimposing of their culture over the perceived (and often, as you can tell here, irrationally stereotyped) culture of another society. In most western nations, there is the feeling freedom of expression, and ironically a sense of distrust in their governments (often because of the freedom of information where the media - while biased - still spreads information freely).

In middle-eastern countries the demographic of people is much the same as in most nations. There exist as many radicals there as anywhere. However the tradition within governments has a slower rate of change - corruption is harder to disuade and there is less reason to disuade radical elements from acting. Indonesia had this problem for years until in recent times the government has encountered a paradigm shift.

As many have said here, the strength will be in people like yourself. Change is slow, and needs cause. Don't take offence and, above all, learn why people act the way they do.

Athon

[Troll]

Originally posted by Tricky

Actually, I think Tmy was being sarcastically critical of some people in the US, who chooses some Arabs to like and some to hate. I honestly don't think Tmy meant to insult you.

Some arabs or some arab governments? I mean I've hated the French government for well over 20 years but it doesn't mean I hate french people or french canadians.

[Someone]

If you just could understand what I've just said you wouldn't have say that Syrian, Iranian and Palestinian are homicidal maniacs. Can I ask all of you and specially the ones who believe that these previous countries are raising terrorism , why do you see that they are so ?? they are all defending their home, and fighting every hostile force that tries to steal it .. so what's wrong in that ?? Usually, when you talk about Palestine case in front of any Arabian citizen he'll get mad and accuse the Israelis in stealing our lands and killing their people not differentiating between babies , women, old men and between soldiers ,, On the other hand , when you talk about the same case in front of an Israeli or an American they'll also accuse Arabs in stealing their home !! everyone is claiming that it's his land and he has all the right to live peacefully on it , but who is right?? Our religion says that it's our home and that they are all enemies we should fight and that there is a specific day which will witness our victory and it's even written in (Twarat) . I don't know about your religion but I took a quick glance at an article for (( AN@S)) saying that Tawrat says that you don't have the rights to steal Palestine from us and that it's not your home .. I'm not here to convince you , I'm just saying my opinions and thoughts and it's up to you in accepting or not.. and I'll always believe that defending our lands was never considered a terrorism act .. It's just one of the rights that we own .

[max]

Someone
But what land do you own? The Palistinian farmers were only too pleased to sell their land to the Israelis because they were paid a fortune for it. Palistinians therefore shouldn't gripe now that, that particular land is out of their hands. Also arabs and jews go back for centuries in Israel. The main mosque in Jerusalem is built on top of what once would be a temple/synagogue. The foundations being 'the wailing wall' How would arabs like it if we christians knock down the mosques and build churches in their place? When one looks at a map of the world the arabs have claimed so much of the planet it is incredible. The jews or Israelis as we should refer to them only have the tiniest scrap of the planet. Do arabs eventually want to own the whole planet? One could fit three countries in Iraq or Iran and still have space left over!!
I am glad to hear that you are not terrorists but why every time any moslem/arab/hindu etc is interviewed on TV do they always support Palistine/Iraq/Iran as opposed to the country in which they now live. Why do they not support UK for instance if this is where they now live? If they don't agree with our lifestyle/government/nightclubs/womens lib etc why don't they emigrate to an Islam country and have done with it. I wouldn't dream of moving to Iraq for instance because I don't agree with their lifestyle.
Regarding the middle east, it is a terrible problem and yes it would need Solomon to solve it but if arabs would stop blowing up civilians just for a few months, that would help in the progression of peace talks

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by max
Someone
But what land do you own? The Palistinian farmers were only too pleased to sell their land to the Israelis because they were paid a fortune for it. Palistinians therefore shouldn't gripe now that, that particular land is out of their hands.



Crikey, they didn't sell them that much. Also, the land that was bought was to never be sold to anyone but a Jew.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Someone
Usually, when you talk about Palestine case in front of any Arabian citizen he'll get mad and accuse the Israelis in stealing our lands and killing their people not differentiating between babies , women, old men and between .

Is this the only way to get you mad?

What if I tell you that I don't respect people who do nothing for democracy?
What if I tell you that you live in a theocratic regime?
What if I tell you that I despise people who are so charmed by the american dollars that they do nothing to help their brothers ( the Palestinians)

What will you think then?

Do you know what I think?

Palestinians in comparison with you are lucky people. At least the day that they will have a DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY is near...

I can't say the same for you...

[hisham]

Originally posted by Someone
thank you all for the replies , but I have a question for Tmy ..

what do you have against Syrian, Iranian, or Palestinian people???

Also Syria cooperated and still cooperating combating terrorism; many US State Department officials have said publicly that Syria helped save American lives.

[hisham]

Someone,
Many people will support your ideas here, but I suggest you to ignore massages contain HATE like the one which talks about don't respecting people who do nothing for democracy and that you live in a theocratic regime etc...

[hisham]

Originally posted by max
Regarding the middle east, it is a terrible problem and yes it would need Solomon to solve it but if arabs would stop blowing up civilians just for a few months, that would help in the progression of peace talks
Max,
Why you think just Arabs would stop blowing up civilians, what about Israeli army? This army would not? Or all actions of this army and Israeli government are legal and don't consider as terrorist actions? Personally am against killing civilians where and what ever they are, but we must be realists and objectives. What you think?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by hisham
Someone,
Many people will support your ideas here, but I suggest you to ignore massages contain HATE like the one which talks about don't respecting people who do nothing for democracy and that you live in a theocratic regime etc...


What's going on hisham? Are you afraid to refer directly to me?I won't eat you, I will only drink your blood...


You know hisham, the only people that don't believe in theocratic regimes like the ones you live in, are the Palestinians. You know, Palestinians... the ones you have done nothing to help them so far...

Doctor X might have been right about releasing the hounds...

[Cleopatra]

Someone , what do you think about the Road Map Plan, by the way...

[max]

Hisham
Israel is one beautiful country. Cultivated in the main by jews. Tel Aviv is a marvellous city etc etc. The people of Israel ruin it.
The Israeli government only retalliates and then normally it is admin/police buildings. The government is not acting as the terrorists such as Hamas which totally targets civilians. Arafat has a lot of blood on his head. Millions of dollars he gets from other arab states goes on purchasing arms. Why not plough the money into improving his peoples lot.
There are schools in 'Palestine' teaching ten year olds that it is a massive honour to grow up to be a suicide bomber. Several films/documentaries have been televised on this. How can a nation hope to be happy if a whole generation are taught to hate? Also one faction states that as long as time exists Israel will never be recognised. How can that be ever sorted with such warmongers?
Why did you not highlight the rest of my post and explain why arabs/muslims do not live in arab /Islam states etc if they are not satisfied with the country they live in.
Why do I never, ever hear one just one arab say they hope for peace in the middle east. It is always Israelis are on our land. I will say again...whose land is it. The jews have lived alongside arabs for at least 5thousand years.
Why is Al Quaeda not happy that America has freed the Iraqi people from a tyrant. What has it got to do with Al Quaeda that Americans are in Saudi. Why don't these terrorists go home and live a decent life like everyone else. I can't have everything my little heart desires but I don't blow my neighbour up because he has a swimming pool and I haven't
Islam teaches that material possessions are not the answer to a happy life so why do Palestinians want what Israel have.
Hisham come up with some answers....what is the answer to the middle east problem???

[max]

bump....just till Hisham replies
The swimming pool was a joke, BTW. There is a lot of poverty in israel in the Palestinian areas but that shouldn't equal suicide bombers.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Someone , what do you think about the Road Map Plan, by the way...

Hi Cleopatra ..

Maybe I think that "the Road Map Plan" means "the Road to Death" ... And it's will be better if you can edit the word (ROAD) with (RED) because we'll see together which color will Map to be ?? The Red Color ... I mean the palestinians blood :mad:

No comment ...

[max]

Wasim
Why do you foresee blood shed on the road map. Surely it is a beginning of peace for everyone in Israel. Don't you want an independent Palestine? A Palestine with its own government/rule/everything Palestinians want? I can't get why you people don't want peace. The whole of Israel has been shared by jews and arabs for five thousand years. Why do you think it should all belong to arabs? Why are two separate states side by side not good enough for you> Why are you so angry? You don't even live there.

[MarshaL_GeneraL]

There are schools in 'Palestine' teaching ten year olds that it is a massive honour to grow up to be a suicide bomber. Several films/documentaries have been televised on this. How can a nation hope to be happy if a whole generation are taught to hate? Also one faction states that as long as time exists Israel will never be recognised. How can that be ever sorted with such warmongers?

Good Day....
all those films/documentaries are produced by the jews..So wht Do you want they to televise???
You know that the jews are controling the medias all over the world....So what???

Why They are teaching the 10 years olds that it is a massive honour to grow up to be a suicide bomber???
You forgot the israeli’s army ... they got nuclear weapons....
and they are Using some of them against the civilians in PAlestine..
Wht Do you want the palestinian civils to do??
Just Watch the israelis killing Babys Womans...And Old Mens??
Its just to defend them selves.....

The israelis are teaching there 7 years olds in the first primary calss....that the arabs,muslims,and any other people in the whole world are just "beasts" According to them Talmud...


Islam teaches that material possessions are not the answer to a happy life so why do Palestinians want what Israel have.

Thats right man....
But Palestine is for the palestinians not for israelis
This is the truth
They have no evidence that palestine is for them.....
We are just defending our land and our rights to have a free palestine with a happy life.....

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Someone , what do you think about the Road Map Plan, by the way...

The Road to the death
It will take the palestinians to a trap in the end....
The israelis/american governments are taking the palestinain government to a trap

But........Allah Is With Us

[hisham]

Originally posted by max
Hisham
Israel is one beautiful country. Cultivated in the main by jews. Tel Aviv is a marvellous city etc etc..............

Thank you Max for your answer,
I really have many answers for your questions, but till now I didn't find objectivity in your reply, so I think we can not reach a conclusion in such debate, because if you feel this forum is just to attack others, then others always have many things to use to attack you, but I will not use the same manner. If we agree that we can debate as people not as government's followers, then it will be very useful conversation.

[Tony]

Originally posted by MarshaL_GeneraL




Thats right man....
But Palestine is for the palestinians not for israelis
This is the truth




Hey racist, if palestine is for the palestinians, then why are you in sweden?

Isnt sweden for the swedish?

[max]

Marshall
You have got to be joking about the jews being in charge of TV. In the UK every news bulletin I watch on Israel is biased towards the Palestinians and do you know why that is..probably so we don't offend our oil rich 'friends' in the other arab states. We are always seeing/hearing of an arab baby or arab woman being killed by the Israeli army. The TV stations here gloss over any Israelis that are killed. yes they show the aftermath of a suicide bomber's work but not for long.
Where would you like the jews to move to? Allah is with every living creature, it's just that we christians call him God so where does that quote get you? Jews would call him Eli but it is the same concept.
I will also ask you.....why are you so angry? We are merely discussing the subject on here. By the way I am Christian but don't bother with religion anymore..it stinks to high hell and is one big con to keep the peasants under the thumb. Humans are so stupid

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Wasim


Hi Cleopatra ..

Maybe I think that "the Road Map Plan" means "the Road to Death" ... And it's will be better if you can edit the word (ROAD) with (RED) because we'll see together which color will Map to be ?? The Red Color ... I mean the palestinians blood :mad:

No comment ...

Wasim, you haven't read it...otherwise you wouldn't have been talking like this...

Read it first!!!!

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19506

No Charmion, not the hounds yet...

[Dancing David]

dear Someone: I am sorry that your very insightful post led to this recreation of the tensions in the Middle East.

May all people have the freedom to realize that:
your hatred is killing your children!

There is no right or wrong, only human vaulues , all sides must stop the fighting for there to be peace. All sides have a list of grievances and dead bodies to point to.

The bombers knew what they were doing, inciting everyone else to fight.
Even on this forum they have won, thier evil contaminates everyone who holds anger and hatred in thier hearts.

My we all pray for peace in our hearts and a safe place for the children to live.

SAVE THE CHILDREN!

Peace

[max]

Cleopatra
Looks like a brainwashed mind again, like the rest, won't consider anything except no state of Israel. Won't discuss anything other than getting angry at selected parts of posts...(sighs) Just won't talk perhaps they'd rather bombs than words were used. I despair

[richardm]

Originally posted by MarshaL_GeneraL

You forgot the israeli’s army ... they got nuclear weapons....
and they are Using some of them against the civilians in PAlestine..


Really? I'm sure we would have noticed. Presumably Al-Jazeera is exempt from the WorldWide Jewish Media Conspiracy. Did they mention it anywhere?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by max
Wasim
Why do you foresee blood shed on the road map. Surely it is a beginning of peace for everyone in Israel. Don't you want an independent Palestine? A Palestine with its own government/rule/everything Palestinians want? I can't get why you people don't want peace. The whole of Israel has been shared by jews and arabs for five thousand years. Why do you think it should all belong to arabs? Why are two separate states side by side not good enough for you> Why are you so angry? You don't even live there.

Max, I think you would understand the problem better if you understood the history better.

You state that jews and arabs have lived together in Palestine for 5000 years. In fact the jewish tribes did not come to Canaan (Israel/Palestine) until possibly 1300BC ( I have seen dates spread from 1400BC to 1100BC ). They were booted out by the Romans after a series of civil wars and revolts and thereafter were never more than a small minority in the country. In other words the territorial connection of modern jews with Palestine ceased nearly 2000years ago.

Modern Israel is the product of a colonisation process started by the Zionists in the late 19th century which was soon strongly and violently resisted by the Palestinians.

As Britain has never shown any real enthusiasm for being colonised by anyone else ( we always preferred to, er, get our retaliation in first so to speak) we are hardly in a position to criticise if some other group of individuals resists colonisation now are we?

I think that it is important to realise that the anger and dislike which many Palestinians feel for the Jews is nothing unusual. It is simply the normal human response to foreign occupation. Once one sees them as ordinary human beings in an extraordinary situation imposed on them by outsiders their reactions may seem more understandable.

By the way I think that Arab governments have for decades used the Palestine issue to distract attention from their own incompetence, corruption and oppression, but that doesn't alter the fact that the Palestinians have been grossly mistreated.

[max]

Ok so three thousand years! If the Romans booted them out surely they have a right to return. But wasim hisham someone won't even consider answering questions, their minds are frozen over, won't even look at it from another angle and I ask again where does everyone think the jews can go? Why do wasim hislam and Someone so concern themselves when one lives in Syria and the others in Stockholme?
Why don't they use their anger/energy to make their own country good to live in.
So having said all we've said on this thread, if everyone forgets the history and says...'what are we going to do from today about the problem' Forget who colonised who in the world and who the Romans took over etc etc. it's 2003 Let the arabs and jews come together and agree on two states. It seems the best way to a better future for them all.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Nikk
[B]

Modern Israel is the product of a colonisation process started by the Zionists in the late 19th century which was soon strongly and violently resisted by the Palestinians.

I love to start my day reading essays composed by Brits regarding the bad effects of colonization... (A friend from Cyrpus says hello BTW- his father was tortured in the jail by the Brits for taking part in the Liberation movement of Cyrpus-his uncle was hunged for the same reason and he was only 25... sad stories...)

Oh! I forgot, I apologize! You mention it yourself in your post;you talk judging by your country's historical background!

Of course , we would expect milder tones from a Brit, when we are discussing colonization but it's ok.

Anyway.

Name one country apart from yours which wasn't created the way Israel was...

As Britain has never shown any real enthusiasm for being colonised by anyone else

Indeed... and I wonder why none made it... Do you think that it was only because of your food?

I think that it is important to realise that the anger and dislike which many Palestinians feel for the Jews is nothing unusual. It is simply the normal human response to foreign occupation. Once one sees them as ordinary human beings in an extraordinary situation imposed on them by outsiders their reactions may seem more understandable.

First of all, it's better to use the term Israelis instead of Jews. Then, yes, we can't expect them to be thrilled and grateful about the occupation, in fact, we never said that we went there to introduce them to civilization , only Brits believe such things for themselves-but you are right, we used the methods you and millions of others did to create a country...

The Palestinian reactions that they are not understandable are the murders of innocent civilians. Personally, maybe I wouldn't have a problem to accept even the suicide bombings, if they weren't committed in the name of Allah...but they are and this can't be justified.

By the way I think that Arab governments have for decades used the Palestine issue to distract attention from their own incompetence, corruption and oppression, but that doesn't alter the fact that the Palestinians have been grossly mistreated.

It doesn't alter the fact indeed but it may alter the way you criticize things....

[hisham]

Nikk.
Or maybe the question must be:
Name one country apart from Israel which was created the way Israel was... collecting people from around the entire world to create a country?

But this is not the problem now; we accepted it because many huge powers have interests in the existence of Israel in the region, those powers created a state in the most important strategic region in the world where they can manage their interests.

You must don't believe that the problem is the suicide bombings or something like that because Israel created the roots of Hamas since 70s. we as people "am not talking about government now" really looking for Pease, but what we must do if this state can't live without war, they believe Israel will not live without it, am really sorry for Jews because they are used for playing this roll.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by max
Wasim
Why do you foresee blood shed on the road map. Surely it is a beginning of peace for everyone in Israel. Don't you want an independent Palestine? A Palestine with its own government/rule/everything Palestinians want? I can't get why you people don't want peace. The whole of Israel has been shared by jews and arabs for five thousand years. Why do you think it should all belong to arabs? Why are two separate states side by side not good enough for you> Why are you so angry? You don't even live there.



Hello Mr. Max

Did you said "An Independent Palestine" ??
Sorry, But maybe I don't know what does it mean !
Do you think that the road map plan will be a beginning of peace in Israel ? ... OK ... We'll see what is gonna happen ...
Who said that we don't wanna Peace ?? It's not true ...
We want Peace .. We want our Palestine ...
I'm not angry .. but at speak about "the Road to Death" made me crazy .. Whose crazy idea is it ? :p

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Crikey, they didn't sell them that much. Also, the land that was bought was to never be sold to anyone but a Jew.

AUP, you made the same claim on this thread http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

Electrix disputed your evidence for it on 5/6/03 and asked you to respond on at least 3 follow up posts- as far as I can see you have not. Do plan to respond to it, or just keep posting it?

[max]

Wasim
Don't be so stupid. The road map is just a title, it is not literally A road map. It is a blue print a suggestion for each party to view to discuss, to consider. All the world wants the arabs and Israelis to live together in peace. How wonderful would that be? The road map has got to be a start......a new beginning for everyone.
Come on Wasim don't disappoint me please say you want peace for arabs and their descendents. Don't you experience peace and harmony where you live at present? Wouldn't you want that peace and lifestyle for every arab? Then think road map, think peace, think a future for arab children.......think peace

[JAR]

I've got nothing against Arabs. When that World Trade Center incident happened, I found it was quite impossible for me to hate Arabs. They have such a romanticizable culture. They also wear such cool clothing. The whole Beduin concept is pretty cool. Omar Sharif looked totally cool in that movie, Lawrence of Arabia.

If it wasn't for the fact that nobody dresses in Arab clothing where I live, I'd walk around in Arab garb all the time.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I love to start my day reading essays composed by Brits regarding the bad effects of colonization... (A friend from Cyrpus says hello BTW- his father was tortured in the jail by the Brits for taking part in the Liberation movement of Cyrpus-his uncle was hunged for the same reason and he was only 25... sad stories...)

Oh! I forgot, I apologize! You mention it yourself in your post;you talk judging by your country's historical background!

Of course , we would expect milder tones from a Brit, when we are discussing colonization but it's ok.

What makes you assume, as you seem to, that I approve of colonisation? The colonising powers did not usually have charitable objectives.


Anyway.

Name one country apart from yours which wasn't created the way Israel was...

Why apart from Britain, or indeed England? The country was created by the usual assortment of population movements, invasions, wars etc. The majority of the current population are more or less german originally.

Israel is unique in that it was created by a religious group spread over three continents, if not more.


Indeed... and I wonder why none made it... Do you think that it was only because of your food?

I'm sorry but you're missing the irony of those words. My point was that no one welcomes attempted colonisation but that we were only too happy to impose it on others.



First of all, it's better to use the term Israelis instead of Jews.

Well no. As you know 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinians and the rest of the Palestinians have no axe to grind with them. In my experience muslims, unless they are on their best behaviour, do tend to talk about "the jews" in the context of Palestine. Your experience may be different of course.


Then, yes, we can't expect them to be thrilled and grateful about the occupation, in fact, we never said that we went there to introduce them to civilization , only Brits believe such things for themselves-

actually no. All the European colonists used this sort of justification right from the time Columbus landed in Hispaniola.

but you are right, we used the methods you and millions of others did to create a country...

Actually lacking military power you had to be more subtle and sneaky. Thats not a criticism by the way. I appreciate that what was done was insignificant by historical standards. The trouble is that timing is everything. You were busy colonising just when the idea was going out of style and you came into headlong collision with arab nationalism. That said the French started colonising Algeria in the 1820's or 30's and still got kicked out so it might have made no difference if Zionism had started up earlier.

The Palestinian reactions that they are not understandable are the murders of innocent civilians. Personally, maybe I wouldn't have a problem to accept even the suicide bombings, if they weren't committed in the name of Allah...but they are and this can't be justified.

I'm sorry but war is hell to use a cliché. The UK and US were perfectly happy to target civilians in vast numbers in the WW2 bombing campaigns (in which god was no doubt on our side). Under sufficient pressure we can all usually manage to find excuses for our brutal behaviour when national identity and national survival is at stake. In the case of the Palestinians if you brutalise people then you must expect to get a fair number of brutes. Judging people who don't accept your right to judge won't get us anywhere.



It doesn't alter the fact indeed but it may alter the way you criticize things....

I honestly don't see why it should. It would be perfectly possible for me to criticise arab governments but why bother when there are posters on this board who do little else? This definitely does not mean you by the way!

[Nikk]

Originally posted by hisham
Nikk.
Or maybe the question must be:
Name one country apart from Israel which was created the way Israel was... collecting people from around the entire world to create a country?

But this is not the problem now; we accepted it because many huge powers have interests in the existence of Israel in the region, those powers created a state in the most important strategic region in the world where they can manage their interests.

You must don't believe that the problem is the suicide bombings or something like that because Israel created the roots of Hamas since 70s. we as people "am not talking about government now" really looking for Pease, but what we must do if this state can't live without war, they believe Israel will not live without it, am really sorry for Jews because they are used for playing this roll.

Yes I agree that Israel is unique in the way it was created . It is a colony created in a unique way.

I certainly do put a lot of the blame (but not all of it ) for the current situation on successive Israeli governments and I can understand your anger.

A point I was trying to make was that for most Arabs for their own self interest the political priority should be to work to create what I can only call a liberal democracy. That is to say a modern european or US style state. I do feel that middle eastern rulers find the Palestine issue very useful in that it diverts popular dissatisfaction away from their own failings. I don't wish to cause offence but who has killed tortured and brutalised more arabs/muslims in the region in the last 10/15 years or so? Jews or unelected Arab rulers? I think nobody has any idea how many Saddam Husein has killed yet and between 70,000 and 150,000 have died in Algeria. The harsh truth is that until you can get rid of unelected rulers there is no true safety, security or peace.

Once you have created a series of liberal democracies you could go on to create something like the European Union (ideally including Israel) after all ,the arabs have a language in common, which can't be said of Europe!

To make a comparison with Europe. After WW2 a large chunk of Germany was given to Poland and large numbers of Germans from Czechoslovakia were forced out of that country rather like Palestinian refugees. Many died in the operation. All the survivors were integrated into Germany and both Poland and the Czech republic are now being integrated into the EU. So, unrealistic as my idea might seem we have proved that it can work!

I do think that if you are to have peace and a decent life in the region you must democratise your own states as a priority.

[max]

Nikk
Islam only came about in about 650 how come then that they think they should own Israel when the jews got there three thousand years ago

[hisham]

Originally posted by Nikk
I do think that if you are to have peace and a decent life in the region you must democratise your own states as a priority.
By calling the US army to do like what he did in Iraq? Or to call for civil war? We do want to rid of those regimes but we don't like to let barbarian armies to destroy our countries, and now you are speaking about democracy, did you know that more than half the Jewish population of Israel is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute?

[hisham]

Originally posted by max
Nikk
Islam only came about in about 650 how come then that they think they should own Israel when the jews got there three thousand years ago
Arabs existed before Islam and before the existence of Jews for more than 8 thousand years :D

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by hisham

but we don't like to let barbarian armies to destroy our countries,

Hisham ,baby, you rock!!!! Go for them!!!! :p

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Hisham ,baby, you rock!!!! Go for them!!!! :p
sample of them... :D

[Someone]

Well I got to say that I didn't expect my article to end up with replies that I don't have a proper description for it.
Dear max,
First of all , Sorry for being late in posting my reply but that doesn't mean that I'm not considering to answer or that I'm frozen minded .. right???

You asked why do some of us leave their countries to live in another , you gave wasim as an example, and you said that you would never consider living in Iraq for instance . Well let me tell you something , what are Americans and Britains doing in a lot of Arabian countries specially in a country that most of them hate like Saudi Arabia ?? why do we , Arabs, see a lot of them in many different jobs and having a great life ?? you know why ?? because they are not appreciated in their home while the opposite happens here when they get a very good income which sometime is better than the country's citizen income beside appreciating their minds.

And for the Iraq thing, COME ON .. We , Arabs, rarely go there and we all know how the life is hard there with no sign of any kind of modernization . So why would anyone think of going there . What a good example !! you could mention Jordan, United Arabs of Emirates or Saudi Arabia!!!
And be sure that we are trying our best to make our country THE BEST to live in (( like it used to )) but it's just not a thing that finishes in clapping your hands.

And where should the Jews go ?? mmmmm a good question that needs to think about . well, why don't they just go back from the place they came from??????? .

[JAR]

Originally posted by Someone
And where should the Jews go ?? mmmmm a good question that needs to think about . well, why don't they just go back from the place they came from??????? .
There are way too many Jews in Israel to have them just pack up their stuff and leave.

Jews went to Israel because they wanted to go back to where they came from.

I find it interesting that Arabs often hold views that would brand a person a rascist if they were a white person living in the U.S.

If our president said, "Why don't the Mexicans just go back to the place they came from?", he would get so much flack from the left-wingers. He'd probably have to pay a huge fine or something. Even the republicans would be mad at him. He'd give a bad name to their cause.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by max
Wasim
Don't be so stupid. The road map is just a title, it is not literally A road map. It is a blue print a suggestion for each party to view to discuss, to consider. All the world wants the arabs and Israelis to live together in peace. How wonderful would that be? The road map has got to be a start......a new beginning for everyone.
Come on Wasim don't disappoint me please say you want peace for arabs and their descendents. Don't you experience peace and harmony where you live at present? Wouldn't you want that peace and lifestyle for every arab? Then think road map, think peace, think a future for arab children.......think peace

Do you think Max that it's fair to do "Peace" with who took a big "Piece" of our lands ? :confused:

[hisham]

Originally posted by Wasim


Do you think Max that it's fair to do "Peace" with who took a big "Piece" of our lands ? :confused:
Wasim,
but do you know Israel till now have no response to road map and the european union ambassadors to the UN have harshly criticized Israel's attitude and response to the road map.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by max
Nikk
Islam only came about in about 650 how come then that they think they should own Israel when the jews got there three thousand years ago

OK. A few more dates.

5000BC very ish Jericho existed, one of the worlds first uban settlements.
4999BC World's first graffiti.
Thereafter various cultures come and go until
1300BC ish When semitic tribesmen who probably called themselves
Hebrews invade the place.
100AD ish Sorry I can't remember the exact date, the Romans expel
the Jews from Israel and force them to disperse throughout
the empire. And they never get the chance to come back in
significant numbers.



Since that time Palestine , the name given by the Romans, has been ruled by a variety of states and empires but never became a state or power in its own right. The people who lived there, and of course there were population movements, were the ancestors of the current Palestinians. As I have said only a small minority were of the Jewish religion.

The modern Jews started to come on the scene from the 1880's onwards. The Zionist movement aimed to colonise Palestine, initially by buying land from absentee Turkish landlords, with a view to disposessing and removing the resident Palestinian population.

Clearly the Zionist project has been largely successful but not surprisingly the Palestinians want the country back. Hence the current problems. I do not know when Jewish immigrants formed the majority of the population of Palestine/Israel but it could not have been before the late 1930's. So in other words the Arabs/Palestinians think that they own Palestine/Israel because they lived there for the best part of 2000years, which is longer than the English have lived in England.

None of the above solves the problem of what to do next of course, but it may help to explain why the Palestinians feel the way they do.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by JAR

I find it interesting that Arabs often hold views that would brand a person a rascist if they were a white person living in the U.S.


It is way beyond racism or even the property rights of Palestine. All of the Sons of Abraham believe they have been annointed as God's only people. I don't think the land itself has half the weight as the religious self righteousness of both sides.

At least with racism you have a good chance that one or both sides will see the ridiculous nature of bigotry and come to at least some terms whereby they can live in relative peace.

As an atheist, it is hard for me to concieve of so many people fighting and dying over something that doesn't even exist.

I can't imagine myself strapping on bombs and running into a supermarket because the Easter Bunny promised me a few virgins after I die. I could probably get a better deal from Santa Claus, he told me about this promised land...

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by maxI am glad to hear that you are not terrorists but why every time any moslem/arab/hindu etc is interviewed on TV do they always support Palistine/Iraq/Iran as opposed to the country in which they now live. Why do they not support UK for instance if this is where they now live?

This is an outright lie.

See http://media.guardian.co.uk/attack/story/0,1301,604989,00.html

I wonder if Max supports any other country as well as the one he lives? Just asking.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


It is way beyond racism or even the property rights of Palestine. All of the Sons of Abraham believe they have been annointed as God's only people. I don't think the land itself has half the weight as the religious self righteousness of both sides.

At least with racism you have a good chance that one or both sides will see the ridiculous nature of bigotry and come to at least some terms whereby they can live in relative peace.

As an atheist, it is hard for me to concieve of so many people fighting and dying over something that doesn't even exist.

I can't imagine myself strapping on bombs and running into a supermarket because the Easter Bunny promised me a few virgins after I die. I could probably get a better deal from Santa Claus, he told me about this promised land...

I've always been puzzled by why virgins are supposed to be so desirable when you are some sort of spirit. After all they are not going to get pregnant, ( I think the virgins are actually a kind of spirit who are recreated virgins every day ) so no worries about whether you are bringing up someone elses children.

Plus experience and enthusiasm usually wins out over inexperience and uncertainty in giving a more enjoyable 'in the sack' experience.

Anyone know what rewards muslim women get in heaven?

As regards Judaism pehaps there is a god, or rather not one but lots of them.
Could be that Abraham and Moses were taken for a ride by some malicious god with an evil sense of humour. Someone like Loki in the Norse mythology who just wanted to invent a religion and see how long he could impose serial disasters on the faithful before they wised up. So far it seems to be 4000years and counting.

[GrapeJ713]

Originally posted by Tmy
Dont worry about it Someone. Your covered as long as the Saudi goverment is Ok with the US government . Shoot, most of the 911 killers were Saudi's yet we were trained to hate the Iraqis. So as long as your not Syrian, Iranian, or Palistinian, your OK.

YET! It looks like maybe the government is coming to the conclusion that the Saudi government (not most of it's people) hates the USA. The War on Terror is going to take a very long time, the USA government is using 9-11-01 to justify doing anything it damn well pleases. From what I have seen, most the reason most arabs don't like the USA is because we support Israel and they treat the poor Palestineans badly. It looks to me like the Palestineans prefer eternal war to peace. So a lot more people are going to die from this neverending fight.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Nikk

Anyone know what rewards muslim women get in heaven?


Perhaps they get their clitoris back?

Female Circumcision (http://www.naasohablood.kabissa.org/gmutalation.html)

[Jesse]

Originally posted by Someone
And where should the Jews go ?? mmmmm a good question that needs to think about . well, why don't they just go back from the place they came from??????? . Where did they come from?

[hisham]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


Perhaps they get their clitoris back?

Female Circumcision (http://www.naasohablood.kabissa.org/gmutalation.html)
And will apply for them The Law of the Sotah ?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Jesse
Where did they come from?
Well you could consult theJewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=907&letter=A) which shows that they came from Russia to begin with., back in the late 19th century.

The encyclopedia states:

.".........Since the dispersion of the Jews from their native land, many efforts have been made to induce them to return to Palestine and engage in agriculture. Probably the first of these to lead to any practical result occurred in the nineteenth century; though in the travels of Benjamin of Tudela, and of Peta?yah of Ratisbon, there are records of small settlements of Jews in the Holy Land dating as far back as 1170. .............

........About 1860, several orthodox rabbis, among whom were Hirsch Kalischer and Elijah Gutmacher, developed a plan for the colonization of Palestine with Russian and Rumanian Jews; and this plan was soon after supported by the Maskilim (Progressists). The latter induced the Alliance Israélite Universelle, of Paris, to interest themselves in the matter, notwithstanding the circumstance that many members of the Alliance doubted the adaptability of the Jews to agricultural work........

.......................The year 1882 witnessed the foundation of the first of the Russian-Jewish Agricultural Colonies in Palestine. This community, which was called Rishon le-Zion........"

Later Zionist colonists came from elsewhere in Europe, North America and the Muslim world.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


Perhaps they get their clitoris back?

Female Circumcision (http://www.naasohablood.kabissa.org/gmutalation.html)

All religions are equally ridiculous.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


All religions are equally ridiculous.

But some are more equal than others:D

[Nikk]

Originally posted by hisham

By calling the US army to do like what he did in Iraq? Or to call for civil war? We do want to rid of those regimes but we don't like to let barbarian armies to destroy our countries, and now you are speaking about democracy, did you know that more than half the Jewish population of Israel is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute?

Sometimes you need a damn good civil war or revolution. The English Civil War, the French Revolution, the US civil war all changed things for the better.
This is not true of all revolutions of course!

However in all seriousness is the invasion or Iraq such a bad thing? However dishonest and ill thought out the motives of the coalition may have been a leader has been removed who murdered large numbers of Kurds and Shia Muslims; engaged in an enormously costly( in both human and economic terms) war with Iran; invaded Kuwait thus provoking the first war; and then caused further losses by refusing to honor the surrender terms leading to the invasion.

OK, occupation by foreign troops always provokes anger and resentment and the sooner most of them leave the better but nevertheless Iraq now has an opportunity to create a society without a tyrant in charge. The opportunity needs to be exploited whether it is the result of a "barbarian" invasion or not.

As regards Israel, let us just say that I am not its greatest admirer. However it exists and it is beyond the Arab capacity to defeat it militarily. In these circumstances what do you think would constitute a reasonable peace settlement.

[Cleopatra]

Mr.Someone started a thread to inform the international community that his brothers, the Arabs, are not terrorists.

Since that day, two other major blasts occured,one in Morocco and one in East Jerusalem today, close to my house.

Today's explosion occured after PM Sharon met with the...how shall I call him.. ok President of the Palestinians Abu Mazen.

Today, a lunatic serial killer, who visualises himself in the Paradize eating rice with Allah, decided to kill innocent civilians IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD and ignoring how he would harm the Palestinians.

Now explain to me, the idiot, if you are not terrorists, what the hell are you? How you call yourselves.

Let me tell you.

You are not terrorists but you are cowards and prisoners of your religious fanatism, you always were ,you will always be and that's why you will always stay slaves.

You have what you deserve and maybe more than you deserve.

I pity you and the bloodthirsty serial killers that you don't dare to condemn.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Mr.Someone started a thread to inform the international community that his brothers, the Arabs, are not terrorists.

Since that day, two other major blasts occured,one in Morocco and one in East Jerusalem today, close to my house.

Today's explosion occured after PM Sharon met with the...how shall I call him.. ok President of the Palestinians Abu Mazen.

Today, a lunatic serial killer, who visualises himself in the Paradize eating rice with Allah, decided to kill innocent civilians IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD and ignoring how he would harm the Palestinians.

Now explain to me, the idiot, if you are not terrorists, what the hell are you? How you call yourselves.

Let me tell you.

You are not terrorists but you are cowards and prisoners of your religious fanatism, you always were ,you will always be and that's why you will always stay slaves.

You have what you deserve and maybe more than you deserve.

I pity you and the bloodthirsty serial killers that you don't dare to condemn.

They are individuals, but the difference is that: your government, PM, and the entire state are Terrorists

[Cleopatra]

I pity you Hisham. I can't debate a slave anymore, I wish you the best for the future, although I doubt it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by hisham


They are individuals, but the difference is that: your government, PM, and the entire state are Terrorists

As long as you and your people continue to have this attitude and refuse to acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated by yourselves, you will be condemned to live in the squalor you deserve.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I pity you Hisham. I can't debate a slave anymore, I wish you the best for the future, although I doubt it.

I know that you can't debate with anybody like all in your society , because you still live in the Egyptian slavish age.
Thank you for wishing me the best future, but while you think like that you will never get better future.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Tony


As long as you and your people continue to have this attitude and refuse to acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated by yourselves, you will be condemned to live in the squalor you deserve.

And what about you and your people? You don't refuse to acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated by yourselves?

[Tony]

Originally posted by hisham


And what about you and your people?

What "people" would that be?


You don't refuse to acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated by yourselves?

Of what "wrongs" do you speak?

[Cleopatra]

Hisham. Is there a way for us to help Syria to obtain a democracy?

Is there a petition where I can sign maybe?

What can we do, apart from asking President Bush to liberate you ?

Please, let me know.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Hisham. Is there a way for us to help Syria to obtain a democracy?

Is there a petition where I can sign maybe?

What can we do, apart from asking President Bush to liberate you ?

Please, let me know.
Begin with your self then look for others:D

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Is there a petition where I can sign maybe?
Please, let me know.
Sorry, I forget to ask you to Sign the Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?warcrime)

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Cleopatra ((reply to hisham))


.............
Now explain to me, the idiot, if you are not terrorists, what the hell are you? How you call yourselves.

Let me tell you.

You are not terrorists but you are cowards and prisoners of your religious fanatism, you always were ,you will always be and that's why you will always stay slaves.

You have what you deserve and maybe more than you deserve.

I pity you and the bloodthirsty serial killers that you don't dare to condemn.



What goes around, comes around.

(from my scrapbook, I'll track down the url if anyone's gagging for it)

"......................On the 30th of December 1947, a Zionist terrorist planted a bomb in the Arab neighborhood where the Arab Oil Refinery workers used to live. As a result of this bomb, 6 Arabs were killed, and 41 others were injured. Next morning, the Arab workers rioted in the Oil Refinery and attacked the Jewish workers to avenge the death of their Arab brothers, which resulted in the killing of 41 Jewish workers. As a result of the Arab retaliation, the Haganah and IZL forces commit the New Years Eve Massacre in Balad al-Shaykh, which resulted in the killing of close to 60 innocent men, women, and children. It should be noted that the people of Balad al-Shaykh had nothing to do with Oil Refinery riots, and the Haganah made the choice of picking an easy target to avenge the death of the Jewish Oil Refinery workers.

* On the 29th of February 1948, the Zionist rolled downs a barrel of explosives from the Jewish neighborhood of Hadara Ha Carmel into al-'Abasyah Arab neighborhood, which resulted in the destruction of most of the neighborhood. The bomb ended up terrorizing the nearby Arab neighborhoods into fleeing soon after this incident.

* On the 22nd of March 1948, a Zionist terrorists disguised as British officers planted a car bomb in Iraq Street which killed and injured 36 people, mostly women and children, plus the destruction of several public buildings.

......................"

But the story has a happy ending. One day the leader of these terrorists became Prime Minister of Israel........aaaahhhhh.

Oh and I do condemn all bloodthirsty serial killers, whatever their religion. But it doesn't seem to make them stop.

[Cleopatra]

What distinguishes you, Nikk, by Hisham and all, is your grasp of English, otherwise, I see nothing but similarities

1. An exceptional hatred towards the Israeli People ( I hope that you are able to notice the difference between Israelis and Jews...)

2. A primitive knowledge of History that reflects on the Internet sources you use.

I'd suggest a more carefull reading of Capel Dodger's post, where you could , propably, learn what a historical approach to a burning issue means.

3.A narrow minded approach to the innocent victims of both sides. Of course I know where do come from. I must remind you though that Israelis are not like the Brits and none in Israel has ever treated the members of PLO the way you treat the members of IRA...

4. You make the basic mistake that Arabs choose to make. I can justify the Arabs, for their History is written in blood and not in ink but unless you are muslim, I must take this mistake of yours as another proof of lack of knowledge or worse as an inability to make logical conclusions. Frankly, I don't know which oneis worse...

By you confusing pure terrorism with the way Israel was created you might ( apart from fooling yourself in public) trying to insult me but on the long run, the one that will be harmed is your own society.


5. You keep attaching, in your posts with a remarkable childish excitement( rather charming I must admit, like everything childish) extracts of the Jewish Encyclopedia... Well. It's the Jewish Encyclopedia you have discovered, not the New World.

How can someone debate the personification of fallacy, me wonders...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Mr.Someone started a thread to inform the international community that his brothers, the Arabs, are not terrorists.

Since that day, two other major blasts occured,one in Morocco and one in East Jerusalem today, close to my house.

Today's explosion occured after PM Sharon met with the...how shall I call him.. ok President of the Palestinians Abu Mazen.

Today, a lunatic serial killer, who visualises himself in the Paradize eating rice with Allah, decided to kill innocent civilians IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD and ignoring how he would harm the Palestinians.

Now explain to me, the idiot, if you are not terrorists, what the hell are you? How you call yourselves.

Let me tell you.

You are not terrorists but you are cowards and prisoners of your religious fanatism, you always were ,you will always be and that's why you will always stay slaves.

You have what you deserve and maybe more than you deserve.

I pity you and the bloodthirsty serial killers that you don't dare to condemn.

We all knew that the fanatics would redouble their efforts at war when peace talks were started. This has always been the pattern. And these attacks will be going on for many years to come, although probably not as frequently. It only takes a few to ruin it for the majority.

But as I was reading, the roadmap depends on Israelis confronting their own religious extremists. This also is not going to happen. In fact, one of them has manipulated events to get himself elected as prime minister.

[Cleopatra]

Ok I totally agree with you Unique but tell me in all honesty, please:

Which side do you think that will benefit most of the peace process right now?

I think that the Palestinian. Those are the ones who suffocate right now...

I think that it's time that the pacificists of both side help each other.

We can't get rid of Sharon's mentality if they don't help us, they can't get rid of terrorism that harms them most, if we don't help them.

I think that the time has come when none questions the obvious and I consider this as progress.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Ok I totally agree with you Unique but tell me in all honesty, please:

Which side do you think that will benefit most of the peace process right now?

I think that the Palestinian. Those are the ones who suffocate right now...

I think that it's time that the pacificists of both side help each other.

We can't get rid of Sharon's mentality if they don't help us, they can't get rid of terrorism that harms them most, if we don't help them.

I think that the time has come when none questions the obvious and I consider this as progress.

It appears neither sides extremists think they will benefit. They can't get rid of their terrorists while there are settlements being continually built. Every new settlement just confirms the Israeli State is hell bent on annexing the West Bank and Gaza. It is the aim of Sharon to do exactly that.

Israel makes the most incredible efforts at military efforts to control the Palestinians, to the point where the economy is close to collaps, while doing nothing to stop it's own extremists.

[Baker]

Originally posted by Nikk


What goes around, comes around.

(from my scrapbook, I'll track down the url if anyone's gagging for it)

"......................On the 30th of December 1947, a Zionist terrorist planted a bomb in the Arab neighborhood where the Arab Oil Refinery workers used to live. As a result of this bomb, 6 Arabs were killed, and 41 others were injured. Next morning, the Arab workers rioted in the Oil Refinery and attacked the Jewish workers to avenge the death of their Arab brothers, which resulted in the killing of 41 Jewish workers. As a result of the Arab retaliation, the Haganah and IZL forces commit the New Years Eve Massacre in Balad al-Shaykh, which resulted in the killing of close to 60 innocent men, women, and children. It should be noted that the people of Balad al-Shaykh had nothing to do with Oil Refinery riots, and the Haganah made the choice of picking an easy target to avenge the death of the Jewish Oil Refinery workers.

* On the 29th of February 1948, the Zionist rolled downs a barrel of explosives from the Jewish neighborhood of Hadara Ha Carmel into al-'Abasyah Arab neighborhood, which resulted in the destruction of most of the neighborhood. The bomb ended up terrorizing the nearby Arab neighborhoods into fleeing soon after this incident.

* On the 22nd of March 1948, a Zionist terrorists disguised as British officers planted a car bomb in Iraq Street which killed and injured 36 people, mostly women and children, plus the destruction of several public buildings.

......................"

But the story has a happy ending. One day the leader of these terrorists became Prime Minister of Israel........aaaahhhhh.

Oh and I do condemn all bloodthirsty serial killers, whatever their religion. But it doesn't seem to make them stop.


Could you provide a link to the source of this story and what does it have to do with today’s terrorist?

[Lazarus]

what does it have to do with today’s terrorist? I would think that he is refering to the evolution of mistrust and hatred.....That no one is free from the hatred as long as they allow the cycle to perpetuate.

Several people posting to this thread have allowed their prejudices to take the place of reason. It is sad that people can actually believe they are speaking with reason, while those on the outside looking in see only fear, and animosity.

From reading this thread, and observing the prejudices from several different perspectives, it is easy to understand how difficult the path to peace in the Middle East will be.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Baker



Could you provide a link to the source of this story and what does it have to do with today’s terrorist?

Of course, but it will have to be tomorrow. It is material from the Internet recorded as text without a URL. I'll track it down.

Meanwhile a little information. There were two Zionist/Jewish terrorist oganisations. The Stern Gang and the Irgun Zvai Leumi better known as Irgun B or the Irgun.

Both Menachim Begin and Yitzhak (sp) Shamir were leaders of the organisation and were prime ministers from 1977 to 1992.

In a letter to the New York Times in 1948 Albert Einstein called the Irgun " "a terrorist, rightwing, chauvinist organization" that stood for "ultranationalism, religious mysticism and racial superiority." .........He opposed Begin's visit to the United States in 1949 because Begin and his movement amounted to........ "a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a 'leader state' is the goal," adding:
"The IZL [Irgun] and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute."

I have heard, but cannot verify that Einstein was invited to become President of Israel, but declined.

Incidentally Irgun terrorism continued during WW2 thus in a very, very, small way assisting the Nazi's by putting a small extra drain on the resources devoted to the British war effort. Still, its the thought that counts.

I thought the words "what goes around comes around" explained why I posted that historical snippet. We have a cycle of revenge attack and reprisal in Israel and the occupied territories, each party thinks that what it does is morally justified as revenge for some past atrocity by the other side or at least that a desirable end will be achieved which will justify the means used to achieve it.

There is a tendency by some members on this board to depict Palestinian terrorists as uniquely evil. I am trying to point out that whatever else they may be they are not unique and that their actions have more to do with their past brutalisation than their religion. As I have said before, if you brutalise people you get brutes.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What distinguishes you, Nikk, by Hisham and all, is your grasp of English, otherwise, I see nothing but similarities

1. An exceptional hatred towards the Israeli People ( I hope that you are able to notice the difference between Israelis and Jews...)

2. A primitive knowledge of History that reflects on the Internet sources you use.

I'd suggest a more carefull reading of Capel Dodger's post, where you could , propably, learn what a historical approach to a burning issue means.

3.A narrow minded approach to the innocent victims of both sides. Of course I know where do come from. I must remind you though that Israelis are not like the Brits and none in Israel has ever treated the members of PLO the way you treat the members of IRA...

4. You make the basic mistake that Arabs choose to make. I can justify the Arabs, for their History is written in blood and not in ink but unless you are muslim, I must take this mistake of yours as another proof of lack of knowledge or worse as an inability to make logical conclusions. Frankly, I don't know which oneis worse...

By you confusing pure terrorism with the way Israel was created you might ( apart from fooling yourself in public) trying to insult me but on the long run, the one that will be harmed is your own society.


5. You keep attaching, in your posts with a remarkable childish excitement( rather charming I must admit, like everything childish) extracts of the Jewish Encyclopedia... Well. It's the Jewish Encyclopedia you have discovered, not the New World.

How can someone debate the personification of fallacy, me wonders...

This post deserves a more detailed and considered response than I have time to give it at the moment. I will provide that tomorrow.

I will however comment briefly on point 5. I used that reference as an unbiased source to refute a specific and frequently used argument. There are other sources confirming my point. Why shouldn't I use it whenever the argument needs to be refuted?

Look on the bright side, I try to avoid philosophical cracker mottos like "ad hominem", "straw man", "argument from authority" etc. I find them much more tedious than seeing a reference to a familiar information source. But maybe thats just me.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Lazarus
I would think that he is refering to the evolution of mistrust and hatred.....That no one is free from the hatred as long as they allow the cycle to perpetuate.

Several people posting to this thread have allowed their prejudices to take the place of reason. It is sad that people can actually believe they are speaking with reason, while those on the outside looking in see only fear, and animosity.

From reading this thread, and observing the prejudices from several different perspectives, it is easy to understand how difficult the path to peace in the Middle East will be.

For myself Lazarus when I first started to be aware of the problems of the Middle East my sympathy was with Israel and the Jews. However the more I learned about the conflict and the history of the area the less respect I had for Israel and the more sympathy I had for the Palestinians. I have no personal axe to grind.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Tony
As long as you and your people continue to have this attitude and refuse to acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated by yourselves, you will be condemned to live in the squalor you deserve.
This has to work both ways don't you think? Or perhaps only one side is at fault here?

[Richard G]

WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS !!

Yes you are.

[Lazarus]

Yes you are.
And, you can provide evdence of this claim?



Freedom was not free. It was won at the end of a barrel of a gun Kind of depends which end of the gun your on, now doesn't it?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Richard G
Yes you are.

Is this another claim from the Sylvia Browne and Uri Geller school perhaps?

Come on Dick, let's see your evidence. If you have any is there any chance of seeing it before Sylvia enters the Million Dollar Test next week? Just asking.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Cleopatra
I must remind you though that Israelis are not like the Brits and none in Israel has ever treated the members of PLO the way you treat the members of IRA...

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1701343.stm.
No British government has fired recklessly with helicopters in such a way in Northern Ireland. The wholesale demolishing of evidence and property as seen in Jenin and elsewhere in Palestine has no parallel in Northern Ireland even though IRA bombers attacked and killed Airey Neave in the grounds of the Houses of Parliament and destroyed the Brighton hotel of the government.

IRA killers have been set free in Northern Ireland by the British govenment to start a peace process. IRA bombers have been put through a judicial process and although some have been killed the scale of assassination without trial of alleged suspects in Palestine has no modern equivalent in Northern Ireland.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Richard G


Yes you are.

It's so simple, why don't we just blow up the whole country. They are all terrorists.

[Questioninggeller]

We know, but the kids in the fields with the guns are told otherwise and some wish to believe otherwise.

This angers and sadens us to a point as many of us feel helpless in this time.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by hisham

Wasim,
but do you know Israel till now have no response to road map and the european union ambassadors to the UN have harshly criticized Israel's attitude and response to the road map.

Yes, I do !

[Wasim]

Originally posted by max
Ok so three thousand years! If the Romans booted them out surely they have a right to return. But wasim hisham someone won't even consider answering questions, their minds are frozen over, won't even look at it from another angle and I ask again where does everyone think the jews can go? Why do wasim hislam and Someone so concern themselves when one lives in Syria and the others in Stockholme?

Yeah Max ..
It can be possible when we believe in each other .. when we knew the fact of Israel ..