Sao Paulo - gang riots and 133 dead

[DanishDynamite]

From this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4987104.stm) link:

The death toll from four days of gang attacks and a police backlash in the Brazilian state of Sao Paulo has risen to 115, said police.

They say 33 suspected gang members were shot by police in the 24 hours until Tuesday lunchtime.

....

On Monday, police said 38 police and prison guards had been killed...
I've now heard that a deal has been made with the PCC gang such that there is a ceasefire. But....how could this be allowed to happen? A gang seriously challenging the power of the state (i.e. the police)?

[Rob Lister]

I suspect a few could do it here too, if they set their mind to it. It wouldn't result in a ceasefire but it might result in a stand-off -- as many riots here do, at least for a few hours...or even days.

Still, its probably not a good idea to compare 'our gangs here' with 'theirs there'. It's a different culture in a different political and economic environment. Ours pretend to be tightly knit but really they aren't. It's more of a franchise here than real overall gang organization. Where there an overall gang corporate structure, they could do serious harm. I'm sure they've tried to create such and been thwarted.

Just ramblings.

[Elind]

"Gangs" cause you confusion? Suppose they had been smart enough to give themselves a political or, dare I say religious, label; would that then make it more "understandable"?

[DanishDynamite]

I suspect a few could do it here too, if they set their mind to it. It wouldn't result in a ceasefire but it might result in a stand-off -- as many riots here do, at least for a few hours...or even days.

Still, its probably not a good idea to compare 'our gangs here' with 'theirs there'. It's a different culture in a different political and economic environment. Ours pretend to be tightly knit but really they aren't. It's more of a franchise here than real overall gang organization. Where there an overall gang corporate structure, they could do serious harm. I'm sure they've tried to create such and been thwarted.

Just ramblings.
I suppose it's possible that existing gangs today could try something similar, but I seriously doubt they could achieve this type of affect. Yes, back in the days of Al Capone, this would be possible. But today?

[DanishDynamite]

"Gangs" cause you confusion? Suppose they had been smart enough to give themselves a political or, dare I say religious, label; would that then make it more "understandable"?
Sorry, not understood.

[Rob Lister]

Here? Not a chance for a 'cease fire'. Semantics takes over from there. Our 'big city' gangs simply don't have the corporate culture to organize that. It's like herding cats. There was a movie, I forgot the title, where this was planned...

someone will remember the name. It was a good movie.

I suspect their gang-structure is almost 'government-like'. They clearly have political inflence. I await an expert.

[Grammatron]

Here? Not a chance for a 'cease fire'. Semantics takes over from there. Our 'big city' gangs simply don't have the corporate culture to organize that. It's like herding cats. There was a movie, I forgot the title, where this was planned...

I doubt they would be able to keep a thing like this quiet long enough before the SWAT team starts grabbing the leaders.

[geni]

From this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4987104.stm) link:


I've now heard that a deal has been made with the PCC gang such that there is a ceasefire. But....how could this be allowed to happen? A gang seriously challenging the power of the state (i.e. the police)?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4770097.stm


They picked up polictical and orginisational skill from imprissioned left left-wing revolutionaries.

[WildCat]

Here? Not a chance for a 'cease fire'. Semantics takes over from there. Our 'big city' gangs simply don't have the corporate culture to organize that. It's like herding cats. There was a movie, I forgot the title, where this was planned...

someone will remember the name. It was a good movie.

I suspect their gang-structure is almost 'government-like'. They clearly have political inflence. I await an expert.
Oh, I know of several gangs that have quite an efficient organization. But gangs here ultimately want to avoid police attention, so things like this don't happen. The reason (and the difference) is that the police here would immediately dismantle said gang from top to bottom. Obviously, the gangs in Brazil do not have that fear. And they seem very well armed.

[Elind]

Sorry, not understood.

Anyone else understand?

[Grammatron]

Anyone else understand?

Kind of, but I don't think religious groups challenging government on a political level is the same as a semi-civil-war....if I understood you correctly.

[Rob Lister]

I did, kinda, but I can see how others might have missed it. I think it goes to my point...but I could be mistaken.

"gang" has different meanings to different people in different places.

[DanishDynamite]

Anyone else understand?
Apparently not. At least not to any degree of certainty beyond guessing.

Try again, this time in English.

[Rob Lister]

oh stop. Just discuss.

[DanishDynamite]

oh stop. Just discuss.
Sorry. :)

[Elind]

Kind of, but I don't think religious groups challenging government on a political level is the same as a semi-civil-war....if I understood you correctly.

Let's take the example of the FARC in Columbia. Just another gand of drug dealers, who had the sophistication to call themselves a political group and wear uniforms to help recruit.

Anyone want to bet that the Brazilian gangs will find a charismatic spin meister to unite them in the name of the oppressed soon enough?

I'll lay off the religious angle for now. Enough threads on that already.

[DanishDynamite]

Let's take the example of the FARC in Columbia. Just another gand of drug dealers, who had the sophistication to call themselves a political group and wear uniforms to help recruit.

Anyone want to bet that the Brazilian gangs will find a charismatic spin meister to unite them in the name of the oppressed soon enough?

I'll lay off the religious angle for now. Enough threads on that already.
The PCC gang already has a gang leader which unites them.

Next question, please.

[Elind]

The PCC gang already has a gang leader which unites them.

Next question, please.

Don't be a smartass. I wasn't trying to.

You still miss the point.

[DanishDynamite]

Don't be a smartass. I wasn't trying to.

You still miss the point.
Enlighten me. And in English this time, thanks.

[pipelineaudio]

Not a chance in hell in the US would they be able to push the cops to a ceasefire. Gangs today havent even the balls or skill to punch each other anymore. Guns brought the huge american gangs to their inevitable and individual conclusion.

Today its more like "posse" a small and somewhat loose confederation

If you cant get 4 people to agree on a common motive you wont get the tens of thousands needed to make a police standoff

[DanishDynamite]

Not a chance in hell in the US would they be able to push the cops to a ceasefire. Gangs today havent even the balls or skill to punch each other anymore. Guns brought the huge american gangs to their inevitable and individual conclusion.

Today its more like "posse" a small and somewhat loose confederation

If you cant get 4 people to agree on a common motive you wont get the tens of thousands needed to make a police standoff
Exactly!

Hence my disbelief about what has happened in Sao Paulo. I know its true, I just wonder how its possible.

[Elind]

Enlighten me. And in English this time, thanks.

:sigh: I was speculating that if they have the balls to do what they did, just because they're bad, think how much more effective they would be if they called themselves a political "freedom" group and the support that could generate.

I hear that Brazil is upsetting the Chavez crowd these days. Where would you send some money if you wanted to stir things up for the government in Brazil?

[Elind]

I suspect a few could do it here too, if they set their mind to it. It wouldn't result in a ceasefire but it might result in a stand-off -- as many riots here do, at least for a few hours...or even days.

Still, its probably not a good idea to compare 'our gangs here' with 'theirs there'. It's a different culture in a different political and economic environment. Ours pretend to be tightly knit but really they aren't. It's more of a franchise here than real overall gang organization. Where there an overall gang corporate structure, they could do serious harm. I'm sure they've tried to create such and been thwarted.

Just ramblings.

I just read the article in this week's TIME on New Orleans crime issues, after Katrina. It made me think of this discussion. Seems rather relevant in many ways, if not in scale, yet.

[DanishDynamite]

:sigh: I was speculating that if they have the balls to do what they did, just because they're bad, think how much more effective they would be if they called themselves a political "freedom" group and the support that could generate.
Why do you think that would generate support? Support from where...Brazilians? And in what way is your random speculation interesting?
I hear that Brazil is upsetting the Chavez crowd these days. Where would you send some money if you wanted to stir things up for the government in Brazil?
I don't know. Do you?

[Elind]

You remind me of someone. Can't put my finger on it right now. Do you have another identity here by chance?

[Nyarlathotep]

Here? Not a chance for a 'cease fire'. Semantics takes over from there. Our 'big city' gangs simply don't have the corporate culture to organize that. It's like herding cats. There was a movie, I forgot the title, where this was planned...

someone will remember the name. It was a good movie.



Is the movie you are thinking of The Warriors, perchance?

[geni]

I hear that Brazil is upsetting the Chavez crowd these days. Where would you send some money if you wanted to stir things up for the government in Brazil?

Tade unions probably.

[Kaylee]

Here? Not a chance for a 'cease fire'. Semantics takes over from there. Our 'big city' gangs simply don't have the corporate culture to organize that. It's like herding cats. There was a movie, I forgot the title, where this was planned...

someone will remember the name. It was a good movie.

I suspect their gang-structure is almost 'government-like'. They clearly have political inflence. I await an expert.

Is the movie you are thinking of The Warriors, perchance?

Maybe The Spook Who Sat by the Door? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070726/)

[Rob Lister]

Is the movie you are thinking of The Warriors, perchance?

yepper.

tx