the USA in trouble?

[Frostbite]

Now I don't know squat about economics, but does this make any sense?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE2/doodoo.html

[Tony]

I dont know too much about economics either but this seems like gloom and doom. A lot of the same stuff can be found here. (http://www.raptureready.com/)

[ssibal]

Considering the source (whatreallyhappened.com), I doubt there is much to worry about.

[Jon_in_london]

I think it makes some good points about the abitary nature of our economic system. It is a real concern to me that the Uk has basically lost its entire manufacturing capability and seems incapable of controlling the rewards of its multitude of innovation and inventions.Mind, our debt isnt nearly as bad as yours.

What the article doent point out of course is the the whole world is really in the same boat as the US- only rather worse off. The net flow of money is out of the thrid world and into the first not vice-versa. Thats why Americans are fat and Ethiopians arent.

[jj]

Originally posted by Frostbite
Now I don't know squat about economics, but does this make any sense?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE2/doodoo.html

Let's see. The results of the government's interference in business in the last 20 years.

The death of Bell Labs, AT&T Labs, Bellcore, and all the spinoffs. The best research facility in the world, dismantled, and most of the people who worked there screwed over so badly and alienated so badly that they will never consider another speculative research job again in their lives.

RCA Labs.
CBS Labs.
Xerox Labs.
Sun Labs.
TI Labs


I'd say that the article was 100.00% spot-on. The current emphasis on the bottom line, and the resistance that anyone gets when somebody DOES have a good idea and PROFITS has convincd everyone who runs business that invention is a dumb idea, just stick to what used to work.

You know, like the coal, steel, ore, ship building, and automobile industries did.

And yes, it is the governments' fault in many ways. The ludicrous emphasis on faith vs. science is just the lastest in a long line of attempts the government has made since 1980 to set us back into a long dark ages.

[Segnosaur]

America may or may not be as bad as stated in the article. But even if things were bad, who would be able to challenge the U.S. and its economy/military in the immediate future?

- Europe? Too much socialism (especially from France and Germany); their economy is strugling
- Japan? Its economy had a meltdown a while ago and is still strugling
- China? A communist country; and even with reforms, communist countries do not encourage innovation the way democracies do
- Africa? Can't even feed itself
- Russia? Still rebuilding
- Middle east? All that oil money, and most people there are still dirt poor. And if the oil runs out (or we find alternative energy sources), they're boned

[Cain]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
- Europe? Too much socialism (especially from France and Germany); their economy is strugling

What socialism? Do the workers own and control the means of production, or are you talking about the benevolent welfare state redistributing resources to curb disparity? Or are you talking about all the state owned enterprises? Subsidies?

- Japan? Its economy had a meltdown a while ago and is still strugling.

State capitalism. A few years ago I remember seeing that Japan had the lowest (or one of the lowest) government spending (measured as a percentage of GDP) out of all industrialized countries. Of course, they don't need to spend anything on a military.

- China? A communist country; and even with reforms, communist countries do not encourage innovation the way democracies do

Communist?!

- Africa? Can't even feed itself

It's unfortunate; No, that's wishy-washy liberal-speak. It's an atrocity, especially considering how American corporations brazenly bribe authoritarian governments. It still hasn't fully-recovered from European imperalism.

- Russia? Still rebuilding

Russia is a mess. The IMF/World Bank's "shock" to the system has been met with a sharp decrease in most major development indicators. So much for the Washington Consensus.

- Middle east? All that oil money, and most people there are still dirt poor. And if the oil runs out (or we find alternative energy sources), they're boned

Yeah. It would be so easy to start a socialistic society there -- if not for the oppressive culture and constant intervention from capitalist powers (it would also be easy to fly if I had wings).

Elites can hope that Saudi Arabia becomes more stable, and their "liberation" of Iraq meets with similar results as the "liberation" of Kuwait (restoring democracy to one nation at a time).

What's the common theme here? The pacifist-loving, inward-looking U.S. plays a critical role in all of these countries/regions. If economic stagnation lasts as long as a Japan, we'll need to pour more money into the military-industrial-complex and take on an even greater role in countries abroad.

[jj]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
America may or may not be as bad as stated in the article. But even if things were bad, who would be able to challenge the U.S. and its economy/military in the immediate future?


Nobody. Why does that matter? If we stop looking ahead, which we have nearly completely done at this point, there's nobody looking ahead. Welcome to the decline of Pax Romana, and remember the next thousand years.

[Buzzsaw]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
The net flow of money is out of the thrid world and into the first not vice-versa. Thats why Americans are fat and Ethiopians arent.

That, and we don't live in our deserts. See, food doesn't grow well in a desert. If you live there, you can't grow enough food to sustain more than a handful of people. Desert = famine.

[RichardR]

Originally posted by Frostbite
Now I don't know squat about economics, but does this make any sense?Well, they seem to be proposing a return to the gold standard, and I know that makes no sense.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by jj


Let's see. The results of the government's interference in business in the last 20 years.

The death of Bell Labs, AT&T Labs, Bellcore, and all the spinoffs. The best research facility in the world, dismantled, and most of the people who worked there screwed over so badly and alienated so badly that they will never consider another speculative research job again in their lives.

RCA Labs.
CBS Labs.
Xerox Labs.
Sun Labs.
TI Labs


I'd say that the article was 100.00% spot-on. The current emphasis on the bottom line, and the resistance that anyone gets when somebody DOES have a good idea and PROFITS has convincd everyone who runs business that invention is a dumb idea, just stick to what used to work.

You know, like the coal, steel, ore, ship building, and automobile industries did.

And yes, it is the governments' fault in many ways. The ludicrous emphasis on faith vs. science is just the lastest in a long line of attempts the government has made since 1980 to set us back into a long dark ages.

The business changes have not been forced on them by government, except for the breakup of the Bell Labs. All the rest has been their own doing. They make more short term profits by cutting costs, don't see any government involvement there.

As for the gold standard, it is a relic of an age gone by. Why gold, why not some other rare element?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

As for the gold standard, it is a relic of an age gone by. Why gold, why not some other rare element?

Hmmmm...

Unobtanium?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


Hmmmm...

Unobtanium?

Why not? What does gold really represent? All it does is make things a lot more complicated, hence slowing down economic growth.

[RichardR]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
What does gold really represent? All it does is make things a lot more complicated, hence slowing down economic growth.Precisely. It is irrelevant to what is actually going on in the economy.

[jj]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Why not? What does gold really represent?

Something that makes almost as good a connector plating as exists anywhere.

All it does is make things a lot more complicated, hence slowing down economic growth.

That's for sure, when the connectors don't work, the present economy is in big trouble.

:D

Oh, and the claims about the "why" regarding research above. Perhaps the person asserting that government had little to do with it ought to check out the disincentives built into the tax code about research.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by jj


That's for sure, when the connectors don't work, the present economy is in big trouble.

:D

Oh, and the claims about the "why" regarding research above. Perhaps the person asserting that government had little to do with it ought to check out the disincentives built into the tax code about research.

I hear the same thing over here. The 'disincentive' is not really there, there is just not much of an incentive in tax terms.

That is, the government is not actually stopping anyone conducting research, they just don't get to claim as much of a tax deduction as they used to.

Part of the reason for this is the regular rorting of the research, like trips to Tahiti for conferences, etc.

Companies are still free to do as much research as they want, and make the profits from the research.