Woman Shoots Gator That Attacks Her Dog

[BPSCG]

Link. (http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=794181&nid=104)
The alligator was only 3 feet long, but Candy Frey wasn't taking any chances. When the reptile came into the lanai of her home east of Bradenton Saturday and attacked her golden retriever, Frey went and got her gun.

After Frey and her daughter managed to push the gator out of the lanai through the dog door, she blasted away at it four times.

The deputy gave Frey a warning citation for hunting without a license.

[The Fool]

I found this story quite inspirational....Having never bagged a gator... I have now set up a hunting blind on top of the dining table overlooking the dog door. Anyone got any hints on the best scents and calls to use?

[WildCat]

I found this story quite inspirational....Having never bagged a gator... I have now set up a hunting blind on top of the dining table overlooking the dog door. Anyone got any hints on the best scents and calls to use?
Try "FSU Seminole" scent, I hear that drives gators crazy... :boxedin:

[Cleon]

Mmmm...gator meat....

[BPSCG]

I'm waiting for Claus to weigh in on this...

[CFLarsen]

I'm waiting for Claus to weigh in on this...
"I was running on so much adrenaline," the 48-year-old former U.S. Marine aviation technician told the Sarasota Herald-Tribune. "I just freaked out and shot him _ boom, boom, boom, boom."

"I just freaked out".

[Manny]

That story is wrong in so many ways.

They pushed the gator out the dog door!?!

She shot the thing four times and it barely bled? What was she using, a pellet gun?

And a 3-footer took on a fully-grown retriever?

I think the alligators in Florida might recently have aqcuired zombie powers or become sentient or something. We're done for.

[CFLarsen]

That story is wrong in so many ways.

They pushed the gator out the dog door!?!

She shot the thing four times and it barely bled? What was she using, a pellet gun?

And a 3-footer took on a fully-grown retriever?

I think the alligators in Florida might recently have aqcuired zombie powers or become sentient or something. We're done for.
So you agree it was excessive force?

[BPSCG]

So you agree it was excessive force?I think the gator is talking with a tort liability law firm regarding a possible cause of action.

[Charlie Monoxide]

With the 3 human fatalities attributed to gator attacks here in Florida, we are being subtly reminded that we are not top of the food chain ....

Charlie (nothing good comes out of Florida) Monoxide

[richardm]

Oh, not another alligator control thread. Remember that an alligator is just a tool; Alligators don't kill people, it's allig - no, wait, I don't think I've thought this through.

[CFLarsen]

I think the gator is talking with a tort liability law firm regarding a possible cause of action.
Do you think it was excessive force?

[Crossbow]

If I see a Gator on a Plane with a Gun, I'll Kill him!

;)

[BPSCG]

Do you think it was excessive force?Nope. Do you?

[BPSCG]

Oh, not another alligator control thread. Remember that an alligator is just a tool; Alligators don't kill people, it's allig - no, wait, I don't think I've thought this through.
A gun is not a weapon Marge, it's a tool. Like a butcher knife, or a harpoon, or... or an alligator.

[hgc]

Study: Alligators Dangerous No Matter How Drunk You Are


From The Onion...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48203

[CFLarsen]

Nope. Do you?
Yes.

What would you consider excessive force?

[BPSCG]

Yes.Why?
What would you consider excessive force?I don't know what I would consider excessive force, but seeing as

the gator got into her house, and
it was trying to eat her dog,the fact that she was able to get rid of it without doing it significant harm seems to me prima facie evidence that the force she used wasn't excessive.

[Cleon]

I don't know what I would consider excessive force, but seeing as
the gator got into her house, and
it was trying to eat her dog,the fact that she was able to get rid of it without doing it significant harm seems to me prima facie evidence that the force she used wasn't excessive.

Hrm. For me, #1 would be enough for me to shoot the damn thing. Is this mutating into a gun control thing?

[CFLarsen]

I don't know what I would consider excessive force

I don't see why you can't say that. If you can say that this was not excessive force, you must have made up your mind where the line is drawn.

, but seeing as

the gator got into her house, and
it was trying to eat her dog,the fact that she was able to get rid of it without doing it significant harm seems to me prima facie evidence that the force she used wasn't excessive.

But she managed to get the alligator out of the house - through the dog door, even - before she fired away.

Why is that not excessive force? She was not in harms way, nor was any other being. Except the alligator, of course...

[Bob Klase]

The deputy gave Frey a warning citation for hunting without a license.

I heard on the news last night that they came back later and retracted the warning. No doubt the higher ups immediately realized how stupid that warning was going to make their department look.

[ImaginalDisc]

I found this story quite inspirational....Having never bagged a gator... I have now set up a hunting blind on top of the dining table overlooking the dog door. Anyone got any hints on the best scents and calls to use?

Household pets make perfect bait!

Seriously though, I've handled alligators of less than two feet in length. They tend to either sit disturbingly still, or snap at you quickly. I can understand why she went for a gun. They have a high mortality rate in the wild until they mature, and often suffer predation from even older gators. If the gator actually came inside, I'd be worried about a bigger, nastier gator in the nearby water bodies, which may have driven this little one out.

The good news is that it probably can't fit through the doggie door.;)

[Manny]

Hrm. For me, #1 would be enough for me to shoot the damn thing. Is this mutating into a gun control thing?Gotta go with Cleon here. 100% of all freaking alligators which enter my house die. The same is true of mountain lions, cheetahs (I don't care if they're endangered -- they're supposed to be endangered in my house), cobras, grizzly bears, &ct.

Of course, now that I think about it, that also applies to cockroaches, moths, ants, mice, and a whole lot of other things unlikely to eat me. So I guess it comes down to pretty much all fauna and most flora entering my house without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited.

[Bob Klase]

But she managed to get the alligator out of the house - through the dog door, even - before she fired away.

Why is that not excessive force? She was not in harms way, nor was any other being. Except the alligator, of course...

Obviously you haven't heard the whole story. It happened in Bradenton (about 40 miles from me) and I heard the woman interviewed on the radio last night. The facts might not change your opinion, but the gator was trying to come in through a doggy dog (if you don't know, that's a hole cut in the bottom of the door that's covered with a flap- it allows your dog (or cat) to go in and out of the house without you having to open the door.

The woman and her daughter managed to put the gator back out of the house as it was trying to come in the door, and once outside the gator kept trying to come right back in.

She, and her daughter, were both in harms way, along with their pet dog.

Maybe you think you'd have just picked the little critter up and given him a good talking to?

You apparently have no clue just how much force it takes to do significant damage to a gator, or how much damage even a 3 foot gator could do.

[ImaginalDisc]

Of course, now that I think about it, that also applies to cockroaches, moths, ants, mice, and a whole lot of other things unlikely to eat me. So I guess it comes down to pretty much all fauna and most flora entering my house without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited.

So, if the Texas Sack of Starved, Crazed Weasels entered your home, you'd be ok with that? Of course, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about if the Florida Marlins came over, except whether or not you had enough friends who enjoy seafood.

[HarryKeogh]

I would have just blinded the alligator with my car keys or a butterknife that way it could live but couldn't find its way back in my house. That would be the humane thing to do.

[BPSCG]

I don't see why you can't say that. If you can say that this was not excessive force, you must have made up your mind where the line is drawn.Why do I have to have made up my mind with regard to that? I can decide that chasing it down the street blasting at it with an M-1 Abrams tank would have been excessive force without having to know where the line should be drawn between her shotgun and the tank, can't I?

And it sounds like the local law enforcement officials have decided she didn't use excessive force, seeing as how they didn't charge her.

In fact, I can think of only one person who thinks she did use excessive force...

[BPSCG]

100% of all freaking alligators which enter my house die. So how many alligators do you have there in Manhattan that can climb the stairs to your fifth-floor apartment?

Or do they teach 'em how to use the elevators up there in NYC?
Of course, now that I think about it, that also applies to cockroaches, moths, ants, mice, and a whole lot of other things unlikely to eat me. So I guess it comes down to pretty much all fauna and most flora entering my house without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited.Dave Barry once defined "Mother Nature" as "anything you would kill if it tried to get into your house."

I think that sums it up nicely.

[NoZed Avenger]

If I see a Gator on a Plane with a Gun, I'll Kill him!

;)


This is SO nominated.

[NoZed Avenger]

You apparently have no clue just how much force it takes to do significant damage to a gator, or how much damage even a 3 foot gator could do.


If you think that little fact is going to stop a stern lecture, you have another think coming, mister.

[CFLarsen]

Obviously you haven't heard the whole story. It happened in Bradenton (about 40 miles from me) and I heard the woman interviewed on the radio last night. The facts might not change your opinion, but the gator was trying to come in through a doggy dog (if you don't know, that's a hole cut in the bottom of the door that's covered with a flap- it allows your dog (or cat) to go in and out of the house without you having to open the door.

The woman and her daughter managed to put the gator back out of the house as it was trying to come in the door, and once outside the gator kept trying to come right back in.

So, the gator never even got into the house.

She, and her daughter, were both in harms way, along with their pet dog.

After the alligator was out of the house? Just how far away from the house must an alligator be, before people inside the house is not in harms way?

Maybe you think you'd have just picked the little critter up and given him a good talking to?

No, I would have picked up the kid and dog and moved the hell out of the way. Out the front door, away. I sure wouldn't want - in a "frenzy" - to fire a gun four times, if my kid and dog was nearby.

You apparently have no clue just how much force it takes to do significant damage to a gator, or how much damage even a 3 foot gator could do.

Sure, I watch Steve Irwin. ;)

[NoZed Avenger]

If you think that little fact is going to stop a stern lecture, you have another think coming, mister.


If only I had sent in my application for the million.

[CFLarsen]

Why do I have to have made up my mind with regard to that? I can decide that chasing it down the street blasting at it with an M-1 Abrams tank would have been excessive force without having to know where the line should be drawn between her shotgun and the tank, can't I?

And it sounds like the local law enforcement officials have decided she didn't use excessive force, seeing as how they didn't charge her.

In fact, I can think of only one person who thinks she did use excessive force...

Oh, my. That settles it, then.

[BPSCG]

Oh, my. That settles it, then.Well, now Claus, since you seem to think it's excessive force, pray, tell us where you draw the two bright shining lines between "a stern talking to" and "chasing it down the street blasting at it with an M-1 Abrams tank" to demarcate the boundaries delimiting the territories of inadequate force, appropriate force, and excessive force.

[HarryKeogh]

So, the gator never even got into the house.

But it did. It got into the lanai.


After the alligator was out of the house? Just how far away from the house must an alligator be, before people inside the house is not in harms way


It kept trying to get back in.

[hammegk]

Do you think it was excessive force?
Yes. Now what?

[ImaginalDisc]

Claus,

This is a photograph of the head of an alligator which must hvae been about three feet long.

http://www.tellmewhereonearth.com/Web%20Pages/Gators/Gators%20Photos/G209I.JPG

The distance between an alligator's eyes and nostrils in inches is roughly equal to its length in feet. As you can see, the buisiness of end of it is fiarly small, and someone who knows what they are doing could have grabbed and subdued the animal in relative saftey. However, there's no reason to expect every homeowner to be an expert in handling gators. There's nothing unreasonable about a homeowner shooting a dangerous animal which has come into their home. It would have been excessive force for a wildlife offical to have used when resonding to a call, but this is an entirely different situation from an expert handling a routine event. This is a person suddenly confronted with a dangerous situation. Unless you can prove she was endagering her child, your accusation is groundless.

[Luke T.]

Manny has a good point. I'm trying to picture Claus carrying a mosquito from his house or running from room to room away from it so as not to use excessive force and kill it. :)

[CFLarsen]

Well, now Claus, since you seem to think it's excessive force, pray, tell us where you draw the two bright shining lines between "a stern talking to" and "chasing it down the street blasting at it with an M-1 Abrams tank" to demarcate the boundaries delimiting the territories of inadequate force, appropriate force, and excessive force.
I told you how I would solve this: Run.

[CFLarsen]

Unless you can prove she was endagering her child, your accusation is groundless.

Firing away with a gun when in a frenzy is not endangering her child?

O....K.

[ImaginalDisc]

Firing away with a gun when in a frenzy is not endangering her child?

O....K.

Claus, she used a figure of speach. A unfortunate one, I grant you, but if you are claiming she actually was frenzied like a Viking berseker, the burden of proof lies with you. The cop on the scene seemed to think that she wasn't posing a danger to her child.

[CFLarsen]

Claus, she used a figure of speach. A unfortunate one, I grant you, but if you are claiming she actually was frenzied like a Viking berseker, the burden of proof lies with you. The cop on the scene seemed to think that she wasn't posing a danger to her child.
How do you know she was using a figure of speech?

[Kaylee]

From the same article (http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=794181&nid=104) referenced in the OP:

The alligator barely bled from gunshots to the neck and shoulder, Frey said, and wildlife officer put it back in the lake.

I don't understand why the wildlife officer didn't finish the job (IOW kill it instead of release it). After this encounter with the woman and her family, isn't the alligator more likely to grow up and and attack an adult after it becomes an adult?

[Jocko]

Manny has a good point. I'm trying to picture Claus carrying a mosquito from his house or running from room to room away from it so as not to use excessive force and kill it. :)

I'm putting $100 American on the mosquito.

[Bob Klase]

This is a photograph of the head of an alligator which must have been about three feet long.

The distance between an alligator's eyes and nostrils in inches is roughly equal to its length in feet.

The palm of my hand is a little over 3 inches. The head in that picture is slightly smaller than the palm holding it, and the distance between the eyes is at least an inch less than the width of the head. I'd guess that gator was less than 2 feet in length.

The photo shown here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SKULL-ALLIGATOR-3-GATOR-HEAD-TAXIDERMY-florida-teeth_W0QQitemZ7238831847QQcategoryZ13652QQcmdZVie wItem

is said to be from a 3 foot alligator. While there's nothing in the picture for scale, it seems fairly obvious that it's much larger than the photo you linked to.

This one also has nothing to show relative size, but it also seems apparent that it's larger than yours:

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0010-0403-3019-0019.html

someone who knows what they are doing could have grabbed and subdued the animal in relative saftey. However, there's no reason to expect every homeowner to be an expert in handling gators. There's nothing unreasonable about a homeowner shooting a dangerous animal which has come into their home.

Exactly. Someone who knows what they're doing can subdue a 6 foot gator, or a 5 foot rattlesnake in relative safety. Someone who doesn't know what they're doing and attempts to grab and subdue one anyway is an idiot.

[EGarrett]

I told you how I would solve this: Run.
From your own house?!

Then what was her dog supposed to do?

Dude, you aren't making any sense right now.

If a ***** wild, 3-foot long, hungry CARNIVORE is trying to get into my HOUSE. I'm gonna KILL IT. That's not vicious. That's not insane. It's logical. What else can I do, talk to it? Go stay at my Aunt's? I doubt there's a tranquilizer handy.

If you're saying she endangered the other people in the house by firing the shotgun, okay. But if you're saying you don't kill a hungry alligator that's trying to get in your house, you're nuts.

[BPSCG]

I told you how I would solve this: Run.Are you saying you would consider any force to be excessive?

[bluess]

Alligators can get up some good landspeed for a short burst. Better hope that you, your kid and your little dog too (end Wizard of Oz mode) can run FAST.

[ImaginalDisc]

Oh good. Thanks for finding much better pictures of a three footer. My google-fu was failing me. That's what I get for approximating.


Exactly. Someone who knows what they're doing can subdue a 6 foot gator, or a 5 foot rattlesnake in relative safety. Someone who doesn't know what they're doing and attempts to grab and subdue one anyway is an idiot.

Claus, as for how I know she was using a figure of speach, if she had litterally been out of her mind with rage, I doubt very much the officer who responded would have simply fined her. Police officers commonly take into coustody people who pose an immeadiate danger to themselves and others. If the officer had any reason to think she was a danger, he would have taken her into coustody.

[CFLarsen]

From your own house?!

Then what was her dog supposed to do?

Dude, you aren't making any sense right now.

No, I would have picked up the kid and dog and moved the hell out of the way. Out the front door, away.

Try to read what I write.

If a ***** wild, 3-foot long, hungry CARNIVORE is trying to get into my HOUSE. I'm gonna KILL IT. That's not vicious. That's not insane. It's logical. What else can I do, talk to it? Go stay at my Aunt's? I doubt there's a tranquilizer handy.

If you're saying she endangered the other people in the house by firing the shotgun, okay. But if you're saying you don't kill a hungry alligator that's trying to get in your house, you're nuts.

Nuts for trying to avoid a dangerous confrontation?

Are you saying you would consider any force to be excessive?

No. I am saying that in this case, I'd run.

Alligators can get up some good landspeed for a short burst. Better hope that you, your kid and your little dog too (end Wizard of Oz mode) can run FAST.

Of course. Is that more dangerous than staying close to it?

[CFLarsen]

Claus, as for how I know she was using a figure of speach, if she had litterally been out of her mind with rage, I doubt very much the officer who responded would have simply fined her. Police officers commonly take into coustody people who pose an immeadiate danger to themselves and others. If the officer had any reason to think she was a danger, he would have taken her into coustody.

Do you think she had time to calm down before the officer came by?

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by BPSCG http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/misc/backlink.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1646179#post1646136):Are you saying you would consider any force to be excessive?

No. I am saying that in this case, I'd run.So back to my original question: What would you consider to be the dividing lines between inadequate force, appropriate force, and excessive force, in this situation?

[NoZed Avenger]

I'm going to drop out for a bit -- probably until page 7 or so.

Good luck to everyone in the meantime.

[Grammatron]

22 pages.

Who wants to make a friendly wager?

[bluess]

Of course. Is that more dangerous than staying close to it?

Yes, if I have a gun at hand.

A gator a predator. It is designed to capture fleeing prey. If a gator 'gits' a bite on you, they do not let go. Their method of killing involves holding onto the prey, dragging it underwater and rolling until the prey drowns.

Hell, I don't know how to fire a gun, but I'd damn sure try if there was a THREE FOOT LONG predator (I am five foot long) with large sharp teeth, strong legs and a hungry glint in its eye coming after me or mine.

You do understand that children and pets are killed and eaten by gators in Florida, don't you?

[brodski]

22 pages.

Who wants to make a friendly wager?
can you define exactly what you mean by the words "22" "pages" "make" "friendly" and "wager". (I'm looking for at least 35 pages ;) )

[CFLarsen]

So back to my original question: What would you consider to be the dividing lines between inadequate force, appropriate force, and excessive force, in this situation?
I told you: I wouldn't use force. I'd run.

[Grammatron]

I told you: I wouldn't use force. I'd run.

Gaters, as pointed out earlier in the thread, have amazing short-distance burst speed. Thus, there is a good chance that running would actually be counter productive.

Here you are with a readily available gun near by where you can remove the threat that is the gator or make a run for it but have a high probability of putting yourself in more danger.

It seems clear which one is a logical decision and which one is not.

[ImaginalDisc]

Do you think she had time to calm down before the officer came by?

In Braddanton? Hardly. I've eatend hamburgers bigger than that town.

[Grammatron]

Firing away with a gun when in a frenzy is not endangering her child?

O....K.

Evidence that she was in a frenzy.

[BPSCG]

I told you: I wouldn't use force. I'd run.Again, that's not what I asked you. I asked what you thought would be excessive force in this situation. You weren't there, the lady was; what would have been appropriate force for her to use? And where is the dividing line between her using that appropriate force and using excessive force?

[Grammatron]

can you define exactly what you mean by the words "22" "pages" "make" "friendly" and "wager". (I'm looking for at least 35 pages ;) )

22 as in a number of days a month of February is if you were to shortent it by 6 days. Unless it's a leap year, then it would be an entire week.

Pages as in rectangles one would find bound together in a book, but in this instance represented digitally via the forum software.

Make as in create for the sole purpose of existance.

Friendly as I won't kill you if you don't pay up.

Not sure how to define wager in this case since we are not putting up anything.

(you're on)

[Cleon]

22 pages.

Who wants to make a friendly wager?

Honestly, I don't think it'll go beyond ten or so, but seeing as how people can artificially pump it up, I won't put money on it. :)

Meanwhile, I'm gonna go have some gator bites.

[BPSCG]

22 as in a number of days a month of February is if you were to shortent it by 6 days. Unless it's a leap year, then it would be an entire week.Decimal? Or octal?

Pages as in rectangles one would find bound together in a book, but in this instance represented digitally via the forum software.Do these "pages" have actual existence (I'm channeling InterestingIan here...)?
Friendly as I won't kill you if you don't pay up.Will you break his legs?

[brodski]

Will you break his legs? no, but you don't want to know what he'll do to my "drumsticks".

[CFLarsen]

Gaters, as pointed out earlier in the thread, have amazing short-distance burst speed. Thus, there is a good chance that running would actually be counter productive.

Here you are with a readily available gun near by where you can remove the threat that is the gator or make a run for it but have a high probability of putting yourself in more danger.

It seems clear which one is a logical decision and which one is not.

The alligator was outside the house again.


In Braddanton? Hardly. I've eatend hamburgers bigger than that town.

Originally known as the Village of Manatee, Bradenton is the largest Manatee County city, with an estimated population of 54,303 as of April 2005.
Source (http://www.cityofbradenton.com/)

You eat big hamburgers.

Evidence that she was in a frenzy.

She said so.

Again, that's not what I asked you. I asked what you thought would be excessive force in this situation. You weren't there, the lady was; what would have been appropriate force for her to use? And where is the dividing line between her using that appropriate force and using excessive force?
I told you: No force needed. Run.

[BPSCG]

I told you: No force needed. Run.So you are saying that any force she might have used in that situation would have been excessive.

[CFLarsen]

So you are saying that any force she might have used in that situation would have been excessive.
I'm saying that she didn't need to use force.

What is it about this answer that is so hard for you to understand? You keep asking the same question - why do you expect a different answer?

[Grammatron]

Honestly, I don't think it'll go beyond ten or so, but seeing as how people can artificially pump it up, I won't put money on it. :)

True.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna go have some gator bites.
I hear drumsticks are the best :D

[Grammatron]

The alligator was outside the house again.

Trying to get back in.

She said so.

Where?

I told you: No force needed. Run.
And if the gator is chasing you?

[Jocko]

I told you: I wouldn't use force. I'd run.

Not until about page 8 or 9.

[CFLarsen]

Trying to get back in.

All the more reason to get the hell out.

Where?

"I was running on so much adrenaline," the 48-year-old former U.S. Marine aviation technician told the Sarasota Herald-Tribune. "I just freaked out and shot him _ boom, boom, boom, boom."

Try to read the link in the OP and avoid looking like an idiot.

And if the gator is chasing you?

Run.

[BPSCG]

So you are saying that any force she might have used in that situation would have been excessive.

I'm saying that she didn't need to use force.

I'll take that as a "yes."

What is it about this answer that is so hard for you to understand? You keep asking the same question - why do you expect a different answer?The triumph of hope over experience.

[Luke T.]

Claus, I'm gonna be serious for a second. Is it excessive force to kill a housefly?

[Grammatron]

All the more reason to get the hell out.

And the one of the three of you will get eaten. I guess you really like Darwinism, though I am not sure why you are giving the gater an advantage.

Try to read the link in the OP and avoid looking like an idiot.

Hey relax man, not my fault it didn't say frenzy in there. No need to be so hard on yourself.

Run.
You missed the part where the gater is faster than you; your dog; your child.

[CFLarsen]

Is it excessive force to kill a housefly?

Is it threatening you?

[BPSCG]

Not until about page 8 or 9.I'm obliged to inform you that I'm about ready to bail here, so you might want to revise your estimate downwards. Unless Luke here decides to he's got a few years to waste...

[CFLarsen]

And the one of the three of you will get eaten. I guess you really like Darwinism, though I am not sure why you are giving the gater an advantage.

How do you know one of the three will get eaten?

Hey relax man, not my fault it didn't say frenzy in there. No need to be so hard on yourself.

No, it didn't say frenzy. But the woman was clearly in a very exalted mode, with adrenalin pumping through her body. That usually qualifies as a frenzy.

You missed the part where the gater is faster than you; your dog; your child.

You missed the part where the alligator has to get through the door first.

[EGarrett]

Try to read what I write.
Actually, since you only post one line phrases, it's not reading. It's a game of trying to interpret what the subtext is to whatever your question or phrase of the moment is. Forgive me if I don't always get it perfect.

Nuts for trying to avoid a dangerous confrontation?
Nuts because you're trying to carry a Golden Retriever and your child while running from an Alligator which, if it wants to pounce on you, is faster than you are anyway.

And you are aware, of course, that nothing triggers a predator's chasing instinct like trying to run from it?

[Luke T.]

Is it threatening you?

Nope. Just annoying. Would it be excessive force to kill it?

[CFLarsen]

Nope. Just annoying. Would it be excessive force to kill it?

It would be.

Why are you asking? We are talking about using force during a threat.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Manny :
That story is wrong in so many ways.

They pushed the gator out the dog door!?!

She shot the thing four times and it barely bled? What was she using, a pellet gun?

And a 3-footer took on a fully-grown retriever?

I think the alligators in Florida might recently have aqcuired zombie powers or become sentient or something. We're done for....
So you agree it was excessive force?

I damned sure do!

That was a damned doggy door, not a gator door!

They should have shown apt respect, and at least wrestled it out a door fit for human entry/exit.

[gnome]

If I see a Gator on a Plane with a Gun, I'll Kill him!

;)

(Sam Jackson) I'm sick of these *********** gators on this *********** plane(/Sam Jackson)

[pipelineaudio]

Gaters, as pointed out earlier in the thread, have amazing short-distance burst speed. .

I would like to point out, on the off chance that this issue ever actually comes up, I would be careful with the word "short " there

That "short" distance is plenty long enough to accomplish your end since when you started running you were probably awful close to the gator to begin with. DO NOT try to outrun a gator

Unless your CF Larsen of course

DO try to get an object between you, like say a tree, a car, a door, or a bullet I guess. Its a common notion to zig zag away from crocodillians, but in a panic your just as likely to trip or slide out and become lunch.

Were it me I would have grabbed the little guy and put him somewhere where he belonged, but herpetology is my lifelong hobby, and I know how to deal with one. Of course it may come back and eat my dog, dunno. Much bigger though and I would shoot same as that lady did.

[CFLarsen]

Nuts because you're trying to carry a Golden Retriever and your child while running from an Alligator which, if it wants to pounce on you, is faster than you are anyway.

Who said anything about carrying a Golden Retriever? Drag it by the collar, if it won't follow.

And you are aware, of course, that nothing triggers a predator's chasing instinct like trying to run from it?

Let it get through the door first.

[CFLarsen]

I would like to point out, on the off chance that this issue ever actually comes up, I would be careful with the word "short " there

That "short" distance is plenty long enough to accomplish your end since when you started running you were probably awful close to the gator to begin with. DO NOT try to outrun a gator

Unless your CF Larsen of course

DO try to get an object between you, like say a tree, a car, a door, or a bullet I guess. Its a common notion to zig zag away from crocodillians, but in a panic your just as likely to trip or slide out and become lunch.

Were it me I would have grabbed the little guy and put him somewhere where he belonged, but herpetology is my lifelong hobby, and I know how to deal with one. Of course it may come back and eat my dog, dunno. Much bigger though and I would shoot same as that lady did.

You do realize that there was a door between her and the alligator?

[gnome]

Man, that's really extreme CFL... I hate guns too but I'd use anything at my disposal to protect my family/pets from an intruding animal.

In fact, if I happened to violate some ordnance about shooting wildlife, I'd probably accept the fine. But I wouldn't regret it.

[Grammatron]

You do realize that there was a door between her and the alligator?

Do you know what the doggy door is?

[Grammatron]

So now CFL is dragging his dog behind him in one arm, his kid in the other and trying to outrun a gator. Brilliant.

[CFLarsen]

Man, that's really extreme CFL... I hate guns too but I'd use anything at my disposal to protect my family/pets from an intruding animal.

In fact, if I happened to violate some ordnance about shooting wildlife, I'd probably accept the fine. But I wouldn't regret it.

Why is it "extreme" to run away, instead of firing in a frenzy while your kid is around?

[CFLarsen]

Do you know what the doggy door is?

And? It still is an obstacle.

So now CFL is dragging his dog behind him in one arm, his kid in the other and trying to outrun a gator. Brilliant.

After it works its way through the door, yes. It wouldn't take long to get to the other side of the house.

How long do you think it took the woman to get her gun and load it? Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

[Grammatron]

And? It still is an obstacle.

After it works its way through the door, yes. It wouldn't take long to get to the other side of the house.

How long do you think it took the woman to get her gun and load it? Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

Things we don't know and you are assuming:

1) The doggy door is a big obsticle for the gator
2) It wouldn't take long to get to the other side of the house along with your kid and dog.
3) The gun wasn't near by.
4) You being able to ourun the gator.
5) The location you would run to.

[Luke T.]

It would be.

Why are you asking? We are talking about using force during a threat.

If it is excessive force to kill a gator "during a threat", as you say, then surely it is excessive force to kill something that isn't a threat.

[Silly Green Monkey]

A doggy door capable of passing a golden retriever? Definitely big enough to pass an alligator. The doggy door was a portal for the alligator, not an obstacle.

Perhaps if an alligator scampered into your house you would grab your skirt, jump on a table, and scream until it went away. Can't get you on the table after all.

[pipelineaudio]

And? It still is an obstacle.



Ok then you DONT know what a doggy door is

Seriously, theres another factor to consider and thats the repeat offender thing. She can reasonably be sure it would come back.

I dont want anyone shooting animals, it would be much better for the planet and likelyhumanity in general to shoot a person instead, not that I want anyone getting shot, Im just saying.

It would be nice if this lady can work out a way to deal with these things later as it will surely be an issue again. Fences work. Surely theres a wildlife rescue place in the area that could either relocate any troublesome critters or show her how to handle one

[CFLarsen]

Things we don't know and you are assuming:

1) The doggy door is a big obsticle for the gator
2) It wouldn't take long to get to the other side of the house along with your kid and dog.
3) The gun wasn't near by.
4) You being able to ourun the gator.
5) The location you would run to.

If you can theorize, so can I.

Answer the question, please: How long do you think it took the woman to get her gun and load it? Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

[Grammatron]

If you can theorize, so can I.

Answer the question, please: How long do you think it took the woman to get her gun and load it? Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

The article makes it sound like the gun was near by and already loaded.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Depends on how close the gun was stored, and whether or not it was kept unloaded.

Depends on whether or not the dog was ready to do battle with the alligator and unwilling to flee.

Depends on how close her daughter was to the alligator, and how the woman compared the running speed of the alligator to her burdened running speed.

[HarryKeogh]

Why is it "extreme" to run away, instead of firing in a frenzy while your kid is around?

Claus, stop using the word "frenzy". She said she "just freaked out" which is a common figure of speech here. She was a former U.S. Marine aviation technician which means she had firearms training. To say she was in a frenzy is very likely a gross exaggeration.

frenzy (from dictionary.com):

A state of violent mental agitation or wild excitement.
Temporary madness or delirium.
A mania; a craze

[pipelineaudio]

Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

What do you mean by "get the dog and the kid"?

You mean take the time to grab them and hold them up like treats for the gator?

You mean grab the dog by the collar dragging him back with one hand while holding the kid in the other? Trying to make good distance like that?

Im highly UNconvinced that a 3 foot gator is much of a threat, but I cant speak for her, and it CERTAINLY could be a threat for her kid

This is starting to sound like lefty-barrio logic. DOnt arm yourself, cal the police, of course the gangsters the same ones, come back as soon as the cops are gone, just this time pissed off

[CFLarsen]

The article makes it sound like the gun was near by and already loaded.

How do you know that? Where was the gun stored?

[CFLarsen]

Depends on how close the gun was stored, and whether or not it was kept unloaded.

Depends on whether or not the dog was ready to do battle with the alligator and unwilling to flee.

Depends on how close her daughter was to the alligator, and how the woman compared the running speed of the alligator to her burdened running speed.

None of which we know.

We do know that she left the scene to get the gun.

[CFLarsen]

What do you mean by "get the dog and the kid"?

You mean take the time to grab them and hold them up like treats for the gator?

You mean grab the dog by the collar dragging him back with one hand while holding the kid in the other? Trying to make good distance like that?

Im highly UNconvinced that a 3 foot gator is much of a threat, but I cant speak for her, and it CERTAINLY could be a threat for her kid

Grab the dog, tell the kid to get moving. Why is this inconceivable?

This is starting to sound like lefty-barrio logic. DOnt arm yourself, cal the police, of course the gangsters the same ones, come back as soon as the cops are gone, just this time pissed off

What does people's political stance have to do with this?

[Bob Klase]

How do you know one of the three will get eaten?

I don't have to know for a fact that one of the three will get eaten. I know there's a possibility that one of the 3 will get bitten, and I know if I kill the gator there is no possibility that one of the three will get eaten.

Are you now suggesting that until the gator actually has one of three in it's mouth that there's no threat?

[Grammatron]

How do you know that? Where was the gun stored?

I don't know that and you do not appear to either.

[Bob Klase]

And? It still is an obstacle.

Yes- a doggie door is almost as much an obstacle as a paper bag stuck over a hole with masking tape.

How long do you think it took the woman to get her gun and load it? Longer or shorter than it would take to get the dog and the kid and run away?

How long do you think? If it was trying to get in my house it would take much less time to get my gun and shoot it than it would to get a dog and a kid and run away. Since my gun is always loaded it would take less than 2 seconds.

[Jocko]

At this point, I would like to volunteer the funds to bring Claus to Florida on a fact finding mission along Alligator Alley. How about it, Claus? You're not gonna tell me you've see them in the Copenhagen Zoo now, are you?

How about getting acquainted, close up, and seeing how fast your flabby @ss can run?

[Luke T.]

It would be.

Why are you asking? We are talking about using force during a threat.

If it is excessive force to kill a gator "during a threat", as you say, then surely it is excessive force to kill something that isn't a threat. Right?

[Aurelian]

She wanted to be the lady with the alligator purse.

Seriously, when the WSJ is reporting alligator attacks in the summaries on the front page, maybe things are a wee bit agitated in Florida?:scared:

In came the doctor, in came the nurse...those 4 shots were "insurance":relieved:

[CFLarsen]

I don't have to know for a fact that one of the three will get eaten. I know there's a possibility that one of the 3 will get bitten, and I know if I kill the gator there is no possibility that one of the three will get eaten.

Do you acknowledge that the alligator has to get through the door first?

Are you now suggesting that until the gator actually has one of three in it's mouth that there's no threat?

No.

I don't know that and you do not appear to either.

If you don't know, then you are merely speculating that it was nearby.

Yes- a doggie door is almost as much an obstacle as a paper bag stuck over a hole with masking tape.

Not in this case. Remember that the woman and her kid managed to get the animal out the door, so obviously it is an obstacle for the animal.

How long do you think? If it was trying to get in my house it would take much less time to get my gun and shoot it than it would to get a dog and a kid and run away. Since my gun is always loaded it would take less than 2 seconds.

We are not talking about your house and your gun. We are talking about her house and her gun.

Which is faster?

A:
1: Run away from the alligator, leaving the kid and dog alone with the angry animal.
2: Get the gun from a locked place, already loaded.
3: Run back to the alligator.

or:

B:
1: Grabbing the kid and dog and run away.

[EGarrett]

Who said anything about carrying a Golden Retriever? Drag it by the collar, if it won't follow.
That would be even slower than carrying it. You're bending over and grabbing the collar. The dog, if it wasn't freaking out already, is certainly going to have some strong reaction when you start choking it. It just doesn't work, dude.

[CFLarsen]

At this point, I would like to volunteer the funds to bring Claus to Florida on a fact finding mission along Alligator Alley. How about it, Claus? You're not gonna tell me you've see them in the Copenhagen Zoo now, are you?

How about getting acquainted, close up, and seeing how fast your flabby @ss can run?

If you want to sponsor a trip for me to Florida, be my guest. Let's see the money.

If it is excessive force to kill a gator "during a threat", as you say, then surely it is excessive force to kill something that isn't a threat. Right?

I already answered it. Where are you going with this?

[gnome]

Why is it "extreme" to run away, instead of firing in a frenzy while your kid is around?

It would not be extreme to run away if you saw that as an option given the circumstances--what is extreme is deciding that is the only reasonable option under the circumstances.

[CFLarsen]

That would be even slower than carrying it. You're bending over and grabbing the collar. The dog, if it wasn't freaking out already, is certainly going to have some strong reaction when you start choking it. It just doesn't work, dude.

I'm not talking about choking it.

Could people stop inventing things I haven't said, please?

[CFLarsen]

It would not be extreme to run away if you saw that as an option given the circumstances--what is extreme is deciding that is the only reasonable option under the circumstances.

Why? There will not be bloodshed. Why is it extreme to choose the solution where there is no blood?

[ImaginalDisc]

If you want to sponsor a trip for me to Florida, be my guest. Let's see the money.



I already answered it. Where are you going with this?

A loathe as I am to cross polinate threads, I recall a certain Dane mentioning that if he saw an armed man on an airplane, he would try to kill that man.

Who could I possibly be thinking of?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=406590#post406590

[Grammatron]

Do you acknowledge that the alligator has to get through the door first?
Sure, even a 100 mile journey begins with one step.

If you don't know, then you are merely speculating that it was nearby.
Correct.
So are you -- now based on my opinion that the gun was loaded and with in immidiate proximity of the gator, would you still run?

Not in this case. Remember that the woman and her kid managed to get the animal out the door, so obviously it is an obstacle for the animal.
How and with what? Could they keep the gator away?

We are not talking about your house and your gun. We are talking about her house and her gun.
Which could be in similar circumstances for all you know.
Which is faster?

A:
1: Run away from the alligator, leaving the kid and dog alone with the angry animal.
2: Get the gun from a locked place, already loaded.
3: Run back to the alligator.

or:

B:
1: Grabbing the kid and dog and run away.

C: Getting an already-loaded gun from near by place and shooting the gator.

[Jocko]

If you want to sponsor a trip for me to Florida, be my guest. Let's see the money.

Name the date, Mr. Dundee.

[HarryKeogh]

Which is faster?

A:
1: Run away from the alligator, leaving the kid and dog alone with the angry animal.
2: Get the gun from a locked place, already loaded.
3: Run back to the alligator.

or:

B:
1: Grabbing the kid and dog and run away.

It depends. How close is the room or drawer where the gun is? Is the gun locked up or not? Is the kid running in one direction and the dog in the other? How big and strong is the woman? Is the dog trying to snap at the intruding gator and if so how easy will it be for this lady to drag the dog away? Will the kid be dragged away easily or will it be kicking and screaming?

All we do know is that in this case she was able to get the loaded gun fast enough to get the job done and keep her family safe.

[CFLarsen]

A loathe as I am to cross polinate threads, I recall a certain Dane mentioning that if he saw an armed man on an airplane, he would try to kill that man.

An armed man on a plane is a threat.

9-11 taught us that.

If you don't agree, I feel truly sorry for you.

[ImaginalDisc]

An armed man on a plane is a threat.

9-11 taught us that.

If you don't agree, I feel truly sorry for you.

Claus, they didn't have guns.

[CFLarsen]

It depends. How close is the room or drawer where the gun is? Is the gun locked up or not? Is the kid running in one direction and the dog in the other? How big and strong is the woman? Is the dog trying to snap at the intruding gator and if so how easy will it be for this lady to drag the dog away? Will the kid be dragged away easily or will it be kicking and screaming?

So, you think that going from A to B to A is faster than going from A to B.

In what parallel universe are you living in? Or are you using Quantum Mechanics to explain this?

All we do know is that in this case she was able to get the loaded gun fast enough to get the job done and keep her family safe.

How do you know the gun was loaded?

[CFLarsen]

Claus, they didn't have guns.
You are arguing that it would have been harder for them to take over the planes if they did?

[Jocko]

An armed man on a plane is a threat.

9-11 taught us that.

If you don't agree, I feel truly sorry for you.


Is every armed policeman a threat, or merely the ones on airplanes?

Spare your sympathy, Claus, the pitiable one is squatting in your chair.

[ImaginalDisc]

You are arguing that it would have been harder for them to take over the planes if they did?

Claus, you're putting words in my motuh. They didn't have guns. It's extraordinarily difficult to smuggle a firearm onto a commerical aircraft. Also, if anyone tried to hijack a plane now, the passengers and crew would undoubtably risk life and limb to prevent the would be hijacker, because we now expect hijackers to kill everyone aboard anyway.

[CFLarsen]

Is every armed policeman a threat, or merely the ones on airplanes?

Spare your sympathy, Claus, the pitiable one is squatting in your chair.
Sky marshals are anonymous.

[Grammatron]

So, you think that going from A to B to A is faster than going from A to B.

In what parallel universe are you living in? Or are you using Quantum Mechanics to explain this?

You are being horribly dishonest.

First of all the choice is:
A to B to A vs A to C
Second you don't know neither distance nor do you know what the point C(location you are running away from the gator to) is.

[HarryKeogh]

So, you think that going from A to B to A is faster than going from A to B.

In what parallel universe are you living in? Or are you using Quantum Mechanics to explain this?

Again, we don't know if she had to go from A to B to A to get the gun. It could have been in a drawer in the same room or it could have been in the attic two flights upstairs. We don't know. We also don't know if she would have had to go from A to B to C to D to round up her kid and dog and head out another door. We don't know. The article doesn't tell us.

We just know in this case getting the gun (loaded or unloaded and loading it) was fast enough to keep her family safe.

[Luke T.]

I already answered it. Where are you going with this?

So killing a fly is excessive force. Just trying to see how far down this thing goes with you.

Maybe you were a Buddhist in a past life. :)

Past life. Buddhist. Heh.

[CFLarsen]

Claus, you're putting words in my motuh.

I asked you a question.

They didn't have guns. It's extraordinarily difficult to smuggle a firearm onto a commerical aircraft.

But not impossible.

Also, if anyone tried to hijack a plane now, the passengers and crew would undoubtably risk life and limb to prevent the would be hijacker, because we now expect hijackers to kill everyone aboard anyway.

No, not "undoubtably". But there sure would be an incentive to stop people with weapons - especially guns - on planes. Would you wait until the people with weapons had taken over the plane (thereby making it imperative that you risked every life on the plane), or would you try to prevent the take-over in the first place (thereby only risking a few people's lives)?

Not a tough question, if you saw the towers fall.

You are being horribly dishonest.

First of all the choice is:
A to B to A vs A to C
Second you don't know neither distance nor do you know what the point C(location you are running away from the gator to) is.

Excuse me? You claimed to know the distance from A to B. Now you don't. Who is dishonest here?

Again, we don't know if she had to go from A to B to A to get the gun. It could have been in a drawer in the same room or it could have been in the attic two flights upstairs. We don't know. We also don't know if she would have had to go from A to B to C to D to round up her kid and dog and head out another door. We don't know. The article doesn't tell us.

We just know in this case getting the gun (loaded or unloaded and loading it) was fast enough to keep her family safe.

The kid was there, and so was the dog. Read the article.

[CFLarsen]

So killing a fly is excessive force. Just trying to see how far down this thing goes with you.

Maybe you were a Buddhist in a past life. :)

Past life. Buddhist. Heh.

Prove it. ;)

[ImaginalDisc]

I asked you a question.

Ah. Your question is a non sequtior. Unless you are seriously suggesting that a man making no threatening movements on an airplane who is almost certainly an air marshall poses a greater threat than a wild predetory animal loose in your kitchen.

[rocketdodger]

I think one could actually make the case that the alligator should have been killed anyway, because it now knows that this woman's house can be entered via the doggy door. It probably isn't that smart, but she should be on the safe side.

[CFLarsen]

Ah. Your question is a non sequtior. Unless you are seriously suggesting that a man making no threatening movements on an airplane who is almost certainly an air marshall poses a greater threat than a wild predetory animal loose in your kitchen.
How can you make that decision? You could be risking another 9-11.

[HarryKeogh]

ah well, time to check out of here. I should have known threads about reptiles and Claus just don't mix well.

to sum up I would have bought the idea of not having to shoot the gator if after it was pushed out the door it didn't come back. But once it kept trying to come back through the dog door and I had a gun handy I'm killing the stupid thing. I'm assuming this lady had a modicum of common sense and wouldn't have left her daughter alone for an appreciable amount of time to get her gun. Plus, this woman is 48 so chances are her child isn't a toddler and could carry out her mom's instructions to steer clear of the reptilian beast. She could have gotten her dog and kid and run away. That's fine. But then you have an alligator running around your house until the cops arrive and I'd rather kill the thing than clean up alligator feces off my rug. Of course if the alligator left and came back the next day or whenever you would have the problem all over again.

My advice to the lady...seal up the doggy door.

[CFLarsen]

I think one could actually make the case that the alligator should have been killed anyway, because it now knows that this woman's house can be entered via the doggy door. It probably isn't that smart, but she should be on the safe side.

I have serious doubt about a wildlife officer releasing a small alligator with four gun shot wounds into the wild.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Because she fired four shots from it?

[CFLarsen]

ah well, time to check out of here. I should have known threads about reptiles and Claus just don't mix well.

to sum up I would have bought the idea of not having to shoot the gator if after it was pushed out the door it didn't come back. But once it kept trying to come back through the dog door and I had a gun handy I'm killing the stupid thing. I'm assuming this lady had a modicum of common sense and wouldn't have left her daughter alone for an appreciable amount of time to get her gun. Plus, this woman is 48 so chances are her child isn't a toddler and could carry out her mom's instructions to steer clear of the reptilian beast. She could have gotten her dog and kid and run away. That's fine. But then you have an alligator running around your house until the cops arrive and I'd rather kill the thing than clean up alligator feces off my rug. Of course if the alligator left and came back the next day or whenever you would have the problem all over again.

My advice to the lady...seal up the doggy door.
Before you leave: How do you know the gun was loaded?

[Silly Green Monkey]

How in the world did my post get ahead of the post I was replying to?

[CFLarsen]

Because she fired four shots from it?

That's not evidence that it was loaded. If it was not loaded, even more time passed.

How in the world did my post get ahead of the post I was replying to?

You're psychic...

[HarryKeogh]

Before you leave: How do you know the gun was loaded?

I didn't. See post #128. I corrected it (but I think you knew that already)

oh, and how did you know that girl in the video was physically harmed by being handcuffed?

On second thought...don't bother answering. Good night, Claus.

[CFLarsen]

I didn't. See post #128. I corrected it (but I think you knew that already)

oh, and how did you know that girl in the video was physically harmed by being handcuffed?

On second thought...don't bother answering. Good night, Claus.
If you can't keep focused, I think it's time for bed for you, too.

[pipelineaudio]

I think one could actually make the case that the alligator should have been killed anyway, because it now knows that this woman's house can be entered via the doggy door. It probably isn't that smart, but she should be on the safe side.

Sadly, this is certainly sound reasoning :(

But lets hope this doesnt just turn into open season on alligators

Imagine the environmental impact if Golfers were left to breed willy nilly with no gators to thin out the herd

[Jocko]

Sky marshals are anonymous.

As true as it is irrelevant.

I'll repeat the question, Claus. Please read carefully, consider thoughtfully, and answer thoroughly: are all armed police a threat, or just the ones on airplanes?

[Jocko]

I have serious doubt about a wildlife officer releasing a small alligator with four gun shot wounds into the wild.

The question is, do you have serious evidence?

I'll bet you don't, based on your amply-demonstrated ignorance of the mechanics of an alligator. Would you like to know why you're wrong, or should we simply cut to the chase and have you start barking Yes or no? Yes or no? to everyone around you?

[CFLarsen]

As true as it is irrelevant.

I'll repeat the question, Claus. Please read carefully, consider thoughtfully, and answer thoroughly: are all armed police a threat, or just the ones on airplanes?

But you don't know that the guy on the plane with a gun is a cop.

That's the crux of the matter. That's why you brush it aside as being "irrelevant". That's why you want to talk about something else.

The question is, do you have serious evidence?

Of what??

[luchog]

I told you how I would solve this: Run.
You have no clue just how fast alligators can move, do you?

[Bob Klase]

Do you acknowledge that the alligator has to get through the door first?

First before what? But the alligator was getting through the door and they kept trying to push it back out.[/QUOTE]

Not in this case. Remember that the woman and her kid managed to get the animal out the door, so obviously it is an obstacle for the animal.

But it's not so obvious. The doggy door is nothing but a hole cut in the door. There's a flap of (usually) plastic hanging down to keep dirt and rain from coming through the hole. While that might be an obstacle for you, it's mostly useless in stopping alligators. The only "obstacle"(s) were the woman and her daughter using sticks to try and push it back out the hole as it was trying to get in. The size of the hole would have contributed since the gator couldn't go around the sticks until it got completely through the door.

We are not talking about your house and your gun. We are talking about her house and her gun.

I don't know about her house and her gun. You don't either. Instead of arguing from ignorance (as you have done spectacularly all day) I merely pointed out that your assumption that it took significant time to get (and load) a gun was an ignorate assumption in the face of no knowledge. Since I do know about my house and my gun, I can safely say that assuming it takes a long time is a meaningless assumption. Should you care to test your assumption it always takes a long time to get and load a gun before shooting, just stop by my house some evening and break in through a window- bring a stopwatch and see how long it takes before you're shot.

And no, I won't wait until you eat someone before firing.

[Bob Klase]

Do you acknowledge that the alligator has to get through the door first?

First before what? But the alligator was getting through the door and they kept trying to push it back out.

Not in this case. Remember that the woman and her kid managed to get the animal out the door, so obviously it is an obstacle for the animal.

But it's not so obvious. The doggy door is nothing but a hole cut in the door. There's a flap of (usually) plastic hanging down to keep dirt and rain from coming through the hole. While that might be an obstacle for you, it's mostly useless in stopping alligators. The only "obstacle"(s) were the woman and her daughter using sticks to try and push it back out the hole as it was trying to get in. The size of the hole would have contributed since the gator couldn't go around the sticks until it got completely through the door.

We are not talking about your house and your gun. We are talking about her house and her gun.

I don't know about her house and her gun. You don't either. Instead of arguing from ignorance (as you have done spectacularly all day) I merely pointed out that your assumption that it took significant time to get (and load) a gun was an ignorate assumption in the face of no knowledge. Since I do know about my house and my gun, I can safely say that assuming it takes a long time is a meaningless assumption.

Should you care to test your assumption that it always takes a long time to get and load a gun before shooting, just stop by my house some evening and break in through a window- bring a stopwatch and see how long it takes before you're shot.

And no, I won't wait until you eat someone before firing.

[thaiboxerken]

So you agree it was excessive force?

LMAO. For some reason, I find this hilarious. I stepped on an ant the other day, is that excessive force?

[gnome]

Why? There will not be bloodshed. Why is it extreme to choose the solution where there is no blood?

Once again... YOUR choice is not extreme... that's just what it is... YOUR choice. YOUR family in danger, YOUR assessment of the best response.

I would prefer a solution with no bloodshed, but I am risk-averse to harm to my family. I would choose the option I felt most likely to keep my family safe. In this case... there is reason to believe that if she leaves the alligator unmolested, it could get another chance to hurt her or her family.

I don't think you can assess that risk without either ALL of the details, or actually having been there. Furthermore, I don't think that there need be a legal burden to second-guess that risk assessment. If there was a credible risk, the person has the right to make their own choice.

[BPSCG]

At this point, I would like to volunteer the funds to bring Claus to Florida on a fact finding mission along Alligator Alley. How about it, Claus? You're not gonna tell me you've see them in the Copenhagen Zoo now, are you?

How about getting acquainted, close up, and seeing how fast your flabby @ss can run?Put me down for $25.00.

[CFLarsen]

You have no clue just how fast alligators can move, do you?

It's behind a door.

First before what? But the alligator was getting through the door and they kept trying to push it back out.

They got it out. Read the article.

But it's not so obvious. The doggy door is nothing but a hole cut in the door. There's a flap of (usually) plastic hanging down to keep dirt and rain from coming through the hole. While that might be an obstacle for you, it's mostly useless in stopping alligators. The only "obstacle"(s) were the woman and her daughter using sticks to try and push it back out the hole as it was trying to get in. The size of the hole would have contributed since the gator couldn't go around the sticks until it got completely through the door.

It certainly is an obstacle to an alligator. Doggy doors do not open all the way down to the ground, there is a pretty high threshold. This is true even for cat doors.

As I understand it, alligators have difficulty in jumping. I could be wrong, of course. It could probably throw itself towards the opening, and then wiggle itself through. But that takes time. Alligators are not exactly brainiards.

I don't know about her house and her gun. You don't either. Instead of arguing from ignorance (as you have done spectacularly all day)

I have been consistently arguing from what we can read in the article.

I merely pointed out that your assumption that it took significant time to get (and load) a gun was an ignorate assumption in the face of no knowledge. Since I do know about my house and my gun, I can safely say that assuming it takes a long time is a meaningless assumption. Should you care to test your assumption it always takes a long time to get and load a gun before shooting, just stop by my house some evening and break in through a window- bring a stopwatch and see how long it takes before you're shot.

And no, I won't wait until you eat someone before firing.

I didn't say it took a long time. I said it took longer to go get the gun, load it and get back, than to get the kid and dog and run.

LMAO. For some reason, I find this hilarious. I stepped on an ant the other day, is that excessive force?

Did you mean to?

[CFLarsen]

Once again... YOUR choice is not extreme... that's just what it is... YOUR choice. YOUR family in danger, YOUR assessment of the best response.

I would prefer a solution with no bloodshed, but I am risk-averse to harm to my family. I would choose the option I felt most likely to keep my family safe. In this case... there is reason to believe that if she leaves the alligator unmolested, it could get another chance to hurt her or her family.

If she and her family stays, yes. If they leave, no bloodshed at all.

I don't think you can assess that risk without either ALL of the details, or actually having been there. Furthermore, I don't think that there need be a legal burden to second-guess that risk assessment. If there was a credible risk, the person has the right to make their own choice.

Who said otherwise?

[Jocko]

But you don't know that the guy on the plane with a gun is a cop.

That's the crux of the matter. That's why you brush it aside as being "irrelevant". That's why you want to talk about something else.


That is NOT the crux of the matter. It's my question, so kindly refrain from reading my mind and simply answer it... or admit that you have no clue. Your choice.

Are all armed police dangerous, or just the ones on airplanes?

[Huntster]

I don't understand the problem. As the son of Louisiana coonasses, I have to ask if any of you know how delicious alligator is?

If an alligator (a stupid, cold-blooded reptile) decided to enter my home via the doggy door, he'd never get ushered out. His place is inside the freezer, and his future is the stove/oven.

It's not like alligators are rare or overhunted anymore. The damned things are everywhere; the golf course, the local pond, in your yard, wandering about in the neighborhood, eating pets and women-folks, etc. I wouldn't be too terribly surprised to find them extending their range to here in Alaska. They must be running out of neighborhood pets to eat, because now it sounds like they're focussing their attention on the inside pets and women who dare to go outside.

It's a waste of good groceries and damned good leather, I tell 'ya.

[CFLarsen]

That is NOT the crux of the matter. It's my question, so kindly refrain from reading my mind and simply answer it... or admit that you have no clue. Your choice.

Are all armed police dangerous, or just the ones on airplanes?
Talk about something else, if you like.

Hey, you can talk about the money you were going to send me. Where's that?

[gnome]

If she and her family stays, yes. If they leave, no bloodshed at all.

I'm not convinced that fleeing was safe either.

Who said otherwise?

Alright... well, if you're not saying that, I don't really have a complaint.

[CFLarsen]

I don't understand the problem. As the son of Louisiana coonasses, I have to ask if any of you know how delicious alligator is?

If an alligator (a stupid, cold-blooded reptile) decided to enter my home via the doggy door, he'd never get ushered out. His place is inside the freezer, and his future is the stove/oven.

It's not like alligators are rare or overhunted anymore. The damned things are everywhere; the golf course, the local pond, in your yard, wandering about in the neighborhood, eating pets and women-folks, etc. I wouldn't be too terribly surprised to find them extending their range to here in Alaska. They must be running out of neighborhood pets to eat, because now it sounds like they're focussing their attention on the inside pets and women who dare to go outside.

It's a waste of good groceries and damned good leather, I tell 'ya.

I've had crocodile. It's more...interesting than tasty. Not that it is foul-tasting, yucky or anything, it is just...interesting.

But not something I prefer over other food. I'd rather eat whale meat than croc meat.

[Jocko]

Talk about something else, if you like.

Hey, you can talk about the money you were going to send me. Where's that?

Okay, so you have no clue about which cops are dangerous and which ones are not. Seems a little disingenuous, considering your 20-page defense of attacking a sky marshall on the SOLE GROUNDS that he is armed, but hey, I know how you can be.

Like the way you lecture Americans on their own Constitution, with no idea of how it works.
Like the way you lecture Americans on the role of religion in society, with no idea that you live under a state-run religion.
Like the way you lecture Americans on the proper way to deal with dangerous indiginous creatures without the hassle of ever actually having seen or dealt with such an animal.

On the subject of money, how much will a straight answer from you set me back? From what I've seen, they're not to be had at any price.

[CFLarsen]

I'm not convinced that fleeing was safe either.

I think it was. It certainly is a lot safer than having a very agitated (since "frenzy" is forbidden to use) woman going "boom, boom, boom, boom" with a gun in front of her child.

[Huntster]

I've had crocodile. It's more...interesting than tasty. Not that it is foul-tasting, yucky or anything, it is just...interesting.

But not something I prefer over other food. I'd rather eat whale meat than croc meat.

If overcooked, gator can get dry easily. I find it best in a jumbalaya or etouffe.

I didn't find whale meat as good (beluga). And this is for sure:

Muktuk sucks. It's like eating a semi-solid version of cod liver oil.

Immediately after my first try of muktuk, I would have done almost anything to get that taste out of my mouth.

[Huntster]

....hey, I know how you can be.

Like the way you lecture Americans on their own Constitution, with no idea of how it works.
Like the way you lecture Americans on the role of religion in society, with no idea that you live under a state-run religion.
Like the way you lecture Americans on the proper way to deal with dangerous indiginous creatures without the hassle of ever actually having seen or dealt with such an animal.....

I missed all those.

Did he chastise us for holding our forks in the wrong hand while eating, or driving on the wrong side of the road yet?

[CFLarsen]

On the subject of money, how much will a straight answer from you set me back? From what I've seen, they're not to be had at any price.

No, no, no. There were no conditions. You said:

At this point, I would like to volunteer the funds to bring Claus to Florida on a fact finding mission along Alligator Alley. How about it, Claus? You're not gonna tell me you've see them in the Copenhagen Zoo now, are you?

How about getting acquainted, close up, and seeing how fast your flabby @ss can run?

That was it. A clear offer.

Put your money where your big mouth is. Or are you going to chicken out on me?

[Huntster]

....It certainly is a lot safer than having a very agitated (since "frenzy" is forbidden to use) woman going "boom, boom, boom, boom" with a gun in front of her child.

That's the proper place to go "boom, boom, boom, boom" with a gun.

Doing it behind the child puts the child in the line of fire, silly.

[CFLarsen]

If overcooked, gator can get dry easily. I find it best in a jumbalaya or etouffe.

I didn't find whale meat as good (beluga). And this is for sure:

Muktuk sucks. It's like eating a semi-solid version of cod liver oil.

Immediately after my first try of muktuk, I would have done almost anything to get that taste out of my mouth.

I've eaten whale meat in Norway. I don't know what it was, but probably not Beluga.

Did he chastise us for holding our forks in the wrong hand while eating, or driving on the wrong side of the road yet?

Danes drive on the right side of the road. AFAIK, it is only the Brits who still get it wrong.

As for your table manners.... Nah. Better not. ;)

[CFLarsen]

That's the proper place to go "boom, boom, boom, boom" with a gun.

Doing it behind the child puts the child in the line of fire, silly.
You know what I mean.

[Huntster]

No, no, no. There were no conditions. You said:

Originally Posted by Jocko :
At this point, I would like to volunteer the funds to bring Claus to Florida on a fact finding mission along Alligator Alley. How about it, Claus? You're not gonna tell me you've see them in the Copenhagen Zoo now, are you?

How about getting acquainted, close up, and seeing how fast your flabby @ss can run?


That was it. A clear offer....

"Fact finding mission" has yet to be defined. Does it include swimming in the pond where that most recent woman was eaten? Aren't there facts to be found in that pond?

Somebody define "fact finding mission".

I'll consider a donating a share.

[CFLarsen]

"Fact finding mission" has yet to be defined. Does it include swimming in the pond where that most recent woman was eaten? Aren't there facts to be found in that pond?

Somebody define "fact finding mission".

I'll consider a donating a share.
It certainly looks as if Jocko suddenly can't find the money, so he can use all the help he can get.

[BPSCG]

Since Claus is too pigheaded to acknowledge he has no idea what a doggie door is, here's what it looks like. (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 5845&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302035815&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1147991386624&itemNo=0&Nao=0&In=ALL&N=2035815&Ne=2)

So Claus, now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door?

Now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door three times?

Now do you understand that the doggie door is designed to be an easy means of access and egress for dogs and similar-sized animals, and a obstacle only for insects and small rodents?

[Grammatron]

You know what I mean.

Doubtful.

[Huntster]

....Danes drive on the right side of the road. AFAIK, it is only the Brits who still get it wrong....

DANE? You?

Wow. I'll have to pay more attention to your posts. I've been married to a Dane for 30 years. I must say, they're impressive people. Mrs. Huntster's whole family have a very consistent trait:

Their heads are harder than the hinges of Hades. That's quite an admission, since I was shot in the head a few years back, and suffered no consequences (despite the reports of others). I've got a hard head, but it's mush compared to hers.

...As for your table manners.... Nah. Better not. ;)

Table manners? Me?

You must be mistaking me for some other species..........

[Jocko]

No, no, no. There were no conditions. You said:



That was it. A clear offer.

Put your money where your big mouth is. Or are you going to chicken out on me?

What are you gonna do, use excessive force? Get bent, Eurotrash, and try not to piss off any cops on the way home. Since you're prone to attacking cops, but not vicious reptiles.

Next on the lengthy agenda of things Claus has to learn about: Enforcable contracts. Tune in next week!

[Grammatron]

Since Claus is too pigheaded to acknowledge he has no idea what a doggie door is, here's what it looks like. (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 5845&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302035815&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1147991386624&itemNo=0&Nao=0&In=ALL&N=2035815&Ne=2)

So Claus, now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door?

Now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door three times?

Now do you understand that the doggie door is designed to be an easy means of access and egress for dogs and similar-sized animals, and a obstacle only for insects and small rodents?

I would bet the doggy door in question was lower to the ground a bit.

[Grammatron]

What are you gonna do, use excessive force? Get bent, Eurotrash, and try not to piss off any cops on the way home. Since you're prone to attacking cops, but not vicious reptiles.

Next on the lengthy agenda of things Claus has to learn about: Enforcable contracts. Tune in next week!

Did he master copyright laws yet?

[HarryKeogh]

yeah, yeah, said I was done with this thread but I'm a notorious liar.

so what is everyone's opinion if the alligator was only two feet long?

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/14587974.htm (http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/14587974.htm)

And at Panther Ridge on Saturday, a woman was issued two warnings for firing a gun at a 2-foot gator that attacked her dog in her lanai.

In the Panther Ridge incident, Candy Frey was given a warning for discharging a firearm and attempting to take an alligator. The small gator, "slightly injured" from the gun shots, was returned to the water. Frey declined comment on the incident


At that size I'm beginning to think you wouldn't have to shoot it or run away from it. Maybe just throw a shoe or a can of peas at it.

The difference between a two foot and a three foot gator seems pretty important to me as to what decision I would make.

I really don't think there's much to debate. There's just not enough facts and some of the facts we do have are contradicting each other.

[CFLarsen]

Since Claus is too pigheaded to acknowledge he has no idea what a doggie door is, here's what it looks like. (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 5845&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302035815&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1147991386624&itemNo=0&Nao=0&In=ALL&N=2035815&Ne=2)

So Claus, now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door?

Now do you understand how the gator could have gotten through the door three times?

Now do you understand that the doggie door is designed to be an easy means of access and egress for dogs and similar-sized animals, and a obstacle only for insects and small rodents?

Take a look at the anatomy of a Golden Retriever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Retriever) and the anatomy of an alligator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alligator).

As you will discover, possibly for the first time in your life, is that the legs are somewhat longer on a Golden Retriever than on an alligator.

Since there is a threshold on the doggy door you so generously provided a link to, you will no doubt come to the conclusion that an animal - such as the alligator - will have some difficulty in getting through the door.

In particular, you will notice that the alligator's ability to jump is somewhat limited.

As I already mentioned, it could throw itself through the opening, and wiggle through. That would, naturally, give the woman time to flee, with her kid and dog.

But particularly easy access? Nah. I'll believe it when I see it, though. As always, I am persuaded by evidence. And evidence only.

[CFLarsen]

DANE? You?

Wow. I'll have to pay more attention to your posts. I've been married to a Dane for 30 years. I must say, they're impressive people. Mrs. Huntster's whole family have a very consistent trait:

Their heads are harder than the hinges of Hades. That's quite an admission, since I was shot in the head a few years back, and suffered no consequences (despite the reports of others). I've got a hard head, but it's mush compared to hers.

Ask her about Vikings.

I would bet the doggy door in question was lower to the ground a bit.

Don't bet. Provide evidence.

What are you gonna do, use excessive force? Get bent, Eurotrash, and try not to piss off any cops on the way home. Since you're prone to attacking cops, but not vicious reptiles.

Next on the lengthy agenda of things Claus has to learn about: Enforcable contracts. Tune in next week!

Tsk, tsk..... You are brave enough to offer money for my trip to see those "gators" up close and personal. Just so you can see me scared.

But you are a chicken when it comes to actually following through.

Jocko the *Cluck*o.

[Grammatron]

Don't bet. Provide evidence.


You first.

[Pyrrho]

Alligators, like many reptiles, can move very quickly.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/cbd-faq-q4.htm


So, now you have an idea of how crocodiles can run. But how quickly can they run? Most crocodiles can achieve speeds of around 12 to 14 kph for short periods, which is somewhat slower than a fit human can run. Don't believe the hype - if you're reasonably fit, you can definitely outrun a crocodile! Even faster are galloping crocodiles, and Australian freshwater crocodiles have been clocked at just over 17 kph over distances of perhaps 20 to 30 metres before they begin to tire. In these cases, the crocodile is running away from a threat - only certain extinct species of terrestrial crocodyliforms regularly hunted using a similar gait, which perhaps explains its origins.

However, crocodiles can accelerate much faster than this over very short distances by exploding into action - I have measured adult saltwater crocodiles (around 4 metres total length) moving at 12 metres per second for a quarter of a second, which is long enough to capture prey standing within one body length before it even has time to react. This is where crocodiles excel - launching themselves into motion from a standing start, hoping to cover the short distance between themselves and their prey before the prey can react. This isn't running, however, because the crocodile cannot maintain this acceleration for more than a very brief instant.

Over long distance, a human can apparently outrun an alligator.

Over short distance, no, as evidenced by the unfortunate jogger who was killed by an alligator last week--although in that case, the gator probably lunged from the water, as they are wont to do.

However, I call for double-blind testing. Any volunteers?

[CFLarsen]

You first.

No, no, no. You would bet that the doggy door in question was lower to the ground a bit.

Do you have any evidence of that? At all?

How much would you bet? Ask Jocko to help you out, he seems to have money falling out of his rectum.

Alligators, like many reptiles, can move very quickly.

Over long distance, a human can apparently outrun an alligator.

Over short distance, no, as evidenced by the unfortunate jogger who was killed by an alligator last week--although in that case, the gator probably lunged from the water, as they are wont to do.

The question isn't speed. The question is whether the alligator would have time to wiggle over the doggy door' threshold.

However, I call for double-blind testing. Any volunteers?

Jocko was generous enough to offer money, so I could volunteer. Unfortunately, it seems he has chosen to emulate a very fast chicken.

[thaiboxerken]

I told you: I wouldn't use force. I'd run.

Sounds cowardly. I guess you're place is the place for any criminals to rob, in daylight, without weapons. They can just barge in and start watching TV, at which point you'll just run away and do nothing.

[thaiboxerken]

So you are saying that any force she might have used in that situation would have been excessive.

I'm saying that she didn't need to use force.


Since CFL claims that she didn't need to use force, then yes, his opinion is that ANY force is excessive. Excessive force is the use of unnecessary force, right?

[thaiboxerken]

Run.

Alligators can sprint upwards of 35mph, how fast can you run?

[thaiboxerken]

I think the problem here is that CFL seems to have a weird notion that all life is sacred. His statement that it's excessive force to kill a fly that is annoying qualifies my opinion of his position. I think I could care less about the sanctity of an alligator's life that is trying to munch on my dog and my property. I'll kill it with a hammer, a gun, a rocket, a spoon or my bare hands. I don't care, it's just a stupid reptile.

[CFLarsen]

Sounds cowardly.

"Better to be a living mouse than a dead lion".
Danish proverb.

I guess you're place is the place for any criminals to rob, in daylight, without weapons. They can just barge in and start watching TV, at which point you'll just run away and do nothing.

You see, the strange thing about burglars in Denmark is that they don't use weapons. I can't recall a single Danish news story where burglars used weapons.

Since CFL claims that she didn't need to use force, then yes, his opinion is that ANY force is excessive. Excessive force is the use of unnecessary force, right?

You can't draw that conclusion.

Alligators can sprint upwards of 35mph, how fast can you run?

Read my post #181.

[CFLarsen]

I think the problem here is that CFL seems to have a weird notion that all life is sacred.

No. I think that if it isn't an absolute necessity, we shouldn't kill. Why should we?

Fire away at those darn critters, eh?

His statement that it's excessive force to kill a fly that is annoying qualifies my opinion of his position.

It is unnecessary.

I think I could care less about the sanctity of an alligator's life that is trying to munch on my dog and my property. I'll kill it with a hammer, a gun, a rocket, a spoon or my bare hands. I don't care, it's just a stupid reptile.

If I had no other option, sure. But in this case, there are other options. The best is to get the f**k out of there.

[Pyrrho]

Friend of mine used to own a 6-foot Nile Monitor lizard. Had free range of the house. She had to call the police over once and, while she was talking to the officer, the lizard swaggered around the corner into the room.

Officer, fairly calmly: "What the hell is that?"

Friend: "Nile monitor lizard. You know, most people are afraid of him--you're not? I'm impressed."

Officer: "Most people don't carry a gun."

[thaiboxerken]

"Better to be a living mouse than a dead lion".
Danish proverb.

That doesn't surprise me. What's the lifespan of a mouse?


You see, the strange thing about burglars in Denmark is that they don't use weapons. I can't recall a single Danish news story where burglars used weapons.

They don't have to, they just walk right int he front door and you walk out the back.


You can't draw that conclusion.

I just did.



Read my post #181.

Post it again if you want me to read it.

[thaiboxerken]

No. I think that if it isn't an absolute necessity, we shouldn't kill. Why should we?

Why not?


Fire away at those darn critters, eh?

Yes.


It is unnecessary.

So is drinking beer, which involves the death of millions of yeast.


If I had no other option, sure. But in this case, there are other options. The best is to get the f**k out of there.

I place my possessions as more valuable than a wild critter. I wouldn't run, I'd kill.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Run FROM their own home? Home is supposed to be the safe place! Where are they supposed to go? How are they going to clean up after having a alligator guest ininvited in their home for however long it stays?

[thaiboxerken]

CFL, you keep saying that what she did was unnecessary. WIth that, I will agree. She could've run out the front door and to a neighbor's house and called animal control. However, do you think what she did was wrong? And if so, what do you base that opinion off of?

[CFLarsen]

That doesn't surprise me. What's the lifespan of a mouse?

That's not the point of the proverb.

They don't have to, they just walk right int he front door and you walk out the back.

No, they won't be there if I am home.

I just did.

That doesn't make you right.

Post it again if you want me to read it.

All you have to do is scroll back.

Why not?

You advocate taking lives, just because you have to?

Yes.

Why?

So is drinking beer, which involves the death of millions of yeast.

Ah, I see where you are going. You want a discussion on when to kill other cells or not.

Do you support women's right to abortion when they choose? How long can a woman be pregnant, before you would nix an abortion?

I place my possessions as more valuable than a wild critter. I wouldn't run, I'd kill.

And, since I am not in harm's way, I will probably live longer.

Run FROM their own home? Home is supposed to be the safe place! Where are they supposed to go?

We are not talking about staying away from your home for good.

Where are they supposed to go? How are they going to clean up after having a alligator guest ininvited in their home for however long it stays?

If that happens, I think that's a small price to pay for being safe.

[BPSCG]

Since there is a threshold on the doggy door you so generously provided a link to, you will no doubt come to the conclusion that an animal - such as the alligator - will have some difficulty in getting through the door.And yet, the alligator managed to get through three times.
As always, I am persuaded by evidence. And evidence only.No, actually, once you have your mind made up, you are not persuaded by any evidence at all, or moreover by logic.

[Grammatron]

No, no, no. You would bet that the doggy door in question was lower to the ground a bit.

Do you have any evidence of that? At all?

Yes, I use logic and your evidence.

You proved that the gator can't go through that doggy door and since we know that the gator actually got in that leaves us with 2 conclusions.
1) The woman lied.
2) The doors was different.

Since there is no immidiate evidence to the first in the news stories, we have to default to the second one.

The question isn't speed. The question is whether the alligator would have time to wiggle over the doggy door' threshold.


Let's assume it does and has a very clear shot for you or your dog or kid or all three of you.

What now?

[thaiboxerken]

That's not the point of the proverb.

I know the point of the proverb, I guess you think it's better to live as a coward than die brave. I don't agree, living like a coward is the same as living in a prison of fear or voting for Bush.


No, they won't be there if I am home.

LOL. I doubt it, as soon as they barge into the house, it's theirs. You'll run out the back door.


That doesn't make you right.

I'm always right.


All you have to do is scroll back.

But I don't feel like it.


You advocate taking lives, just because you have to?

No, I advocate taking lives if I feel like it as well. If I have to take a life, there is no advocation, as there is no choice involved in a "have to" situation.


Why?

Because they are just critters.


Ah, I see where you are going. You want a discussion on when to kill other cells or not.

No, I'm talking about lives.


Do you support women's right to abortion when they choose?

Yes.


How long can a woman be pregnant, before you would nix an abortion?

Until birth.


And, since I am not in harm's way, I will probably live longer.

Mayhap, but it's more likely that you'll lose your most dearest possessions before I will.

[CFLarsen]

CFL, you keep saying that what she did was unnecessary. WIth that, I will agree. She could've run out the front door and to a neighbor's house and called animal control. However, do you think what she did was wrong? And if so, what do you base that opinion off of?

Yes, I think it was wrong. She fired a gun in an extremely agitated state of mind, right in front of her kid.

Screw the dog, if you like. But her kid?

And yet, the alligator managed to get through three times.

Where do you see that?

No, actually, once you have your mind made up, you are not persuaded by any evidence at all, or moreover by logic.

Prove me wrong. Provide the evidence.

Don't just talk about you providing the evidence. Provide it.

Yes, I use logic and your evidence.

You proved that the gator can't go through that doggy door and since we know that the gator actually got in that leaves us with 2 conclusions.
1) The woman lied.
2) The doors was different.

Since there is no immidiate evidence to the first in the news stories, we have to default to the second one.

I didn't say that the alligator can't go through that doggy door. In fact, I specifically said that it could, e.g. post #153, and #177.

Let's assume it does and has a very clear shot for you or your dog or kid or all three of you.

What now?

That didn't happen, so it's a moot point.


I know the point of the proverb, I guess you think it's better to live as a coward than die brave. I don't agree, living like a coward is the same as living in a prison of fear or voting for Bush.

You are wrong. Living like a coward does not preclude speaking out against Bush. Which, I am sure, you will agree that I have done many times before.

LOL. I doubt it, as soon as they barge into the house, it's theirs. You'll run out the back door.

But burglars don't, generally, break into homes if they know there are people inside.

I'm always right.

In which case, you don't need to post here.

But I don't feel like it.

That is your loss.

No, I advocate taking lives if I feel like it as well. If I have to take a life, there is no advocation, as there is no choice involved in a "have to" situation.

Because they are just critters.

No, I'm talking about lives.

Yes.

Until birth.

Ah, I see. You are drunk, and therefore cannot be counted on.

Mayhap, but it's more likely that you'll lose your most dearest possessions before I will.

I'd rather be poor than dead.

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, I think it was wrong. She fired a gun in an extremely agitated state of mind, right in front of her kid.

Screw the dog, if you like. But her kid?[/qute]

I see no problem in teaching her kid to protect their own.

[quote]
You are wrong. Living like a coward does not preclude speaking out against Bush. Which, I am sure, you will agree that I have done many times before.

I didn't say it did. I'm saying that it's the mentality of fear that gies people like Bush power. Cowards respond to fear.


But burglars don't, generally, break into homes if they know there are people inside.

Why is that?


In which case, you don't need to post here.

I wouldn't need to either way, but I feel like posting, so I will.


Ah, I see. You are drunk, and therefore cannot be counted on.

I am not drunk, those are opinions I have right now, and I'm sober.


I'd rather be poor than dead.

Not me.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
DANE? You?

Wow. I'll have to pay more attention to your posts. I've been married to a Dane for 30 years. I must say, they're impressive people. Mrs. Huntster's whole family have a very consistent trait:

Their heads are harder than the hinges of Hades. That's quite an admission, since I was shot in the head a few years back, and suffered no consequences (despite the reports of others). I've got a hard head, but it's mush compared to hers.

Ask her about Vikings.....

She and her clan don't resemble barbarians and conquerors. They are very peaceful, respectful people (like you seem to be).

But piss them off, and all hell breaks loose.

What's more, this Danish clan, especially those of them who migrated up here to Alaska, are very proficient with firearms. Mrs. Huntster's brothers are both very efficient moose and caribou hunters, but don't bother the bears. They don't seem to need to shoot more than once. They are very accurate.

Mrs. Huntster, herself, (pretty little thing) is a very proficient huntress. She has shot several caribou, and one shot is all it takes.

[Huntster]

...Screw the dog, if you like......

Hey, there! Careful with invitations like that to thaiboxerken!

That's not your dog!

[Manny]

For whatever it's worth, these marathons are about 5 times funnier with the new extension to the ignore list (http://forums.randi.org/announcement.php?f=10&a=56).

[Grammatron]

But particularly easy access? Nah. I'll believe it when I see it, though. As always, I am persuaded by evidence. And evidence only.
....
That didn't happen, so it's a moot point.

So a random picture-example that BPSCG grabbed from the internet to educate you on what a doggy door can be is evidence but me asking you what you would do in the situation is a moot point?

[Cleon]

Huh. Five pages so far--and that's just the first day. I may well be proven wrong.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by BPSCG :
Nope. Do you?

Yes.

What would you consider excessive force?

Foregoing the firearm and going straight for the WMD.

[gnome]

I think it was. It certainly is a lot safer than having a very agitated (since "frenzy" is forbidden to use) woman going "boom, boom, boom, boom" with a gun in front of her child.

I'm not talking about choosing between escape and fighting... i'm talking about choosing between POSSIBLE escape and fighting. I'm not convinced that they wouldn't be attacked again while fleeing. If I were in her shoes, should I feel a moral obligation to bet my son's life on that?

But a second point--I see no moral obligation to surrender one's house to a dangerous animal rather than kill it. Even if I were certain to be able to get out of the house safely... I can't bring myself to say that it's wrong to try to eject the alligator and to kill it if it won't stay out.

[Huntster]

In Braddanton? Hardly. I've eatend hamburgers bigger than that town.

I've never "eatend" a hamburger. Does that include eating and, perhaps, spilling most of it on one's shirt and lap?

Originally known as the Village of Manatee, Bradenton is the largest Manatee County city, with an estimated population of 54,303 as of April 2005.

Well, that answers my question. At 54,303, there are only two cities in Alaska that are bigger; Anchorage and (barely) Fairbanks. In fact, that 54,303 figure is really close to the population of the entire Matanuska-Sustina Borough, which is larger than the state of West Virginia.

Damned big burger. Even my fat ass couldn't eat that.

I might be able to spill it on my shirt and lap, though........

[Huntster]

...I dont want anyone shooting animals, it would be much better for the planet and likelyhumanity in general to shoot a person instead, not that I want anyone getting shot, Im just saying....

I've heard of people like you. I found it hard to believe such people existed, but I guess it's true.

Out of curiosity, are you from California?

[Huntster]

....This is starting to sound like lefty-barrio logic. DOnt arm yourself, cal the police, of course the gangsters the same ones, come back as soon as the cops are gone, just this time pissed off

Interesting......

This statement doesn't seem to mesh with the one I quoted above, but "barrio" certainly appears Californicated.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Alligator problem? Get phone, not gun (http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060518/COLUMNIST36/605180346)
Though Frey is disabled and uses a cane to get around, she wouldn't expect to lose a fight to the death with a gator that small. That gator's ferocity was impressive, as were its relentless efforts to get back onto the lanai after Frey pushed it back into the yard, but Frey's main concern had been about her pets. ...Frey soon realized that shooting that alligator, even though it was an aggressive, dog-biting carnivore reptile with no fear of humans, could mean real trouble with the legal system. So Frey isn't about to shoot another gator, even if she finds one with her in her swimming pool, which she now checks carefully. Instead of a gun, she said, she plans to grab a phone and call the state's nuisance gator line... So, the woman is handicapped and couldn't have just "picked up the kid and dog and moved the hell out of the way." She acted instinctively to defend her pets. What a horrible person. :rolleyes:

[thaiboxerken]

I don't see how they can call it "hunting" when it came into her house.

[pipelineaudio]

I've heard of people like you. I found it hard to believe such people existed, but I guess it's true.

Out of curiosity, are you from California?

Nah, Im in phoenix, right to shoot :)

I am just very concerned with the overpopulation of the planet. I may seem far to the right of attila the hun on most things but if population control and conserving the environment against apartment house complexes sprouting out all over the entire desert is left, call me Ralph Nader

[pipelineaudio]

Interesting......

This statement doesn't seem to mesh with the one I quoted above, but "barrio" certainly appears Californicated.

This is what the anti-gun, anti defense, pro criminal lefty loonie lobby seems to tell those in besieged homes time and again

"you MUST let them rob you, beat you, hurt you, if you defend yourself you are a crook, these arent crooks breaking in, they just didnt eat enough callared greens" etc etc

CF Larsen seems to share this same mindset regarding the alligator, though he doesnt seem to mind violence against sky marshalls trying to protect airline passengers

[Bob Klase]

No. I think that if it isn't an absolute necessity, we shouldn't kill. Why should we?

The question isn't whether it was absolutely necessary- we started with your claim that it was excessive (a claim you reached by jumping to a conclusion based on virtually no evidence, no knowledge of the capabilities of alligators, no knowledge of what a doggie dog is, and whether the woman felt threatened enough to make it necessary). That conclusion had little to support it either way based solely an the article linked in the OP.

And since the woman did fire, apparently she felt it was, if not an absolute necessity, at least necessary and/or the best option. Whether her assessment was accurate assessment or not, it was certainly based on more evidence than you got from the linked article or from your knowledge and experience with guns, alligators or doggie doors..

It is unnecessary.

You don't know that. You have absolutely no evidence.

But in this case, there are other options. The best is to get the f**k out of there.

There are always other options. One option would be to left the gator eat your dog and/or daughter. I'm guessing that you'd agree that's not the best option (but would not be surprised if don't agree). Your claim that that the best option is "to get the f**k out of there" is not supported by any evidence other than your desire for it to be true.

And even if we got all the facts and can look back and say "get the f**k out of there" was the best option, that doesn't make the woman wrong for feeling different at the time when she was in fear for the safety of her family and didn't have the luxury of analyzing it for 20 minutes before deciding what to do.

But I'm perfectly willing to chip in $100 for you to make a trip here, as long as you agree to get inside a 50 square foot cage with an enraged and hunger 3 foot alligator lunging at your through a doggie door. We'll lock the other exits you might run to so you'll have to slow down to unlock them (since we don't know if the other exits to the woman's house were locked, we'll follow your example and assume whatever facts best support our conclusions. If you don't want the doors lock then provide evidence that the woman's doors were not locked). And you'll have to be dragging a dog and a child similar in size to the dog and child of the woman.

And if the gator gets it's mouth around you before you escape, you'll also have to agree that no one can enter the cage to help you until the average time it would have taken for someone to call the police and for them to arrive at the woman's house.

[Bob Klase]

Take a look at the anatomy of a Golden Retriever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Retriever) and the anatomy of an alligator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alligator).

As you will discover, possibly for the first time in your life, is that the legs are somewhat longer on a Golden Retriever than on an alligator.

Since there is a threshold on the doggy door you so generously provided a link to, you will no doubt come to the conclusion that an animal - such as the alligator - will have some difficulty in getting through the door.

Once again, you have absolutely no knowledge of alligators. The threshold on the door you refer to above is probably less than 4 inches tall (certainly less than 6"). Alligators have legs and even a 3 foot gator could easily step over 4-6 inches. It wouldn't even require the gator to jump (and as you noted above, they're not good at jumping. But I'm sure that was a lucky guess and not based on any evidence that you can provide).

[CFLarsen]

She and her clan don't resemble barbarians and conquerors. They are very peaceful, respectful people (like you seem to be).

But piss them off, and all hell breaks loose.

Yeah, we'll start throwing Danablu around...

What's more, this Danish clan, especially those of them who migrated up here to Alaska, are very proficient with firearms. Mrs. Huntster's brothers are both very efficient moose and caribou hunters, but don't bother the bears. They don't seem to need to shoot more than once. They are very accurate.

Mrs. Huntster, herself, (pretty little thing) is a very proficient huntress. She has shot several caribou, and one shot is all it takes.

Real vikings don't use pussy guns. Real vikings kill game with their bare hands.

I see no problem in teaching her kid to protect their own.

There's a difference between protecting one's own and foolishly getting in harm's way.

I didn't say it did. I'm saying that it's the mentality of fear that gies people like Bush power. Cowards respond to fear.

And yet, it is your country - not mine - who has Bush.

Why is that?

Risk of discovery.

Not me.

Then, we differ.

So a random picture-example that BPSCG grabbed from the internet to educate you on what a doggy door can be is evidence but me asking you what you would do in the situation is a moot point?

Nope. I have also checked other doggy doors. So far, I have not been able to find one for a Golden Retriever without a threshold.

I'm not talking about choosing between escape and fighting... i'm talking about choosing between POSSIBLE escape and fighting. I'm not convinced that they wouldn't be attacked again while fleeing. If I were in her shoes, should I feel a moral obligation to bet my son's life on that?

You think it is more safe to fire away in a highly exicted state of mind, adrenalin pumping. I don't.

But a second point--I see no moral obligation to surrender one's house to a dangerous animal rather than kill it. Even if I were certain to be able to get out of the house safely... I can't bring myself to say that it's wrong to try to eject the alligator and to kill it if it won't stay out.

"Surrender one's house"? What an odd way of thinking. It's not as if the alligator is going to live there.

Alligator problem? Get phone, not gun (http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060518/COLUMNIST36/605180346)
So, the woman is handicapped and couldn't have just "picked up the kid and dog and moved the hell out of the way." She acted instinctively to defend her pets. What a horrible person. :rolleyes:

Here's a picture of her. (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50253) She doesn't look particularly "handicapped". The kid is old enough to walk on her own feet, and could handle the dog.

But it's good to see she has learned not to fire wildly in front of her kid. Something good did come out of all this.

[CFLarsen]

Once again, you have absolutely no knowledge of alligators. The threshold on the door you refer to above is probably less than 4 inches tall (certainly less than 6"). Alligators have legs and even a 3 foot gator could easily step over 4-6 inches. It wouldn't even require the gator to jump (and as you noted above, they're not good at jumping. But I'm sure that was a lucky guess and not based on any evidence that you can provide).

Look at the dog. It's a fully grown Golden Retriever.

[Silly Green Monkey]

And that's assuming that the doggy door was a commercial product installed in the door. She could have just had a chunk cut out of the door.

[CFLarsen]

And that's assuming that the doggy door was a commercial product installed in the door. She could have just had a chunk cut out of the door.
She's an ex-Marine. People like that tend to be anal-retentive. They do things by the book. ;)

[Grammatron]

She's an ex-Marine. People like that tend to be anal-retentive. They do things by the book. ;)

I'm glad you have evidence for this and not just assumption...oh wait.

[CFLarsen]

I'm glad you have evidence for this and not just assumption...oh wait.
Notice the smiley.

The question isn't whether it was absolutely necessary- we started with your claim that it was excessive (a claim you reached by jumping to a conclusion based on virtually no evidence, no knowledge of the capabilities of alligators, no knowledge of what a doggie dog is, and whether the woman felt threatened enough to make it necessary). That conclusion had little to support it either way based solely an the article linked in the OP.

And since the woman did fire, apparently she felt it was, if not an absolute necessity, at least necessary and/or the best option. Whether her assessment was accurate assessment or not, it was certainly based on more evidence than you got from the linked article or from your knowledge and experience with guns, alligators or doggie doors..

You don't know that. You have absolutely no evidence.

What are you talking about? I'm expressing an opinion. How on Earth would someone claim evidence of such a thing, either way?

There are always other options. One option would be to left the gator eat your dog and/or daughter. I'm guessing that you'd agree that's not the best option (but would not be surprised if don't agree).

Thanks for the cheap shot. You missed, though.

Your claim that that the best option is "to get the f**k out of there" is not supported by any evidence other than your desire for it to be true.

OK, I get you: You do say that it is possible to find evidence of a best option. Let's see it.

And even if we got all the facts and can look back and say "get the f**k out of there" was the best option, that doesn't make the woman wrong for feeling different at the time when she was in fear for the safety of her family and didn't have the luxury of analyzing it for 20 minutes before deciding what to do.

But I'm perfectly willing to chip in $100 for you to make a trip here, as long as you agree to get inside a 50 square foot cage with an enraged and hunger 3 foot alligator lunging at your through a doggie door. We'll lock the other exits you might run to so you'll have to slow down to unlock them (since we don't know if the other exits to the woman's house were locked, we'll follow your example and assume whatever facts best support our conclusions. If you don't want the doors lock then provide evidence that the woman's doors were not locked). And you'll have to be dragging a dog and a child similar in size to the dog and child of the woman.

And if the gator gets it's mouth around you before you escape, you'll also have to agree that no one can enter the cage to help you until the average time it would have taken for someone to call the police and for them to arrive at the woman's house.

What is the purpose of this rather childish scenario? What would this prove?

[CFLarsen]

This is what the anti-gun, anti defense, pro criminal lefty loonie lobby seems to tell those in besieged homes time and again

"you MUST let them rob you, beat you, hurt you, if you defend yourself you are a crook, these arent crooks breaking in, they just didnt eat enough callared greens" etc etc

CF Larsen seems to share this same mindset regarding the alligator, though he doesnt seem to mind violence against sky marshalls trying to protect airline passengers

Comments like these are infantile and paranoiac.

[HarryKeogh]

Here's a picture of her. (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50253) She doesn't look particularly "handicapped".

Yeah, aside from the cane. :rolleyes:


But it's good to see she has learned not to fire wildly in front of her kid. Something good did come out of all this

There's no evidence she shot "wildly". As you assumed the kid was old enough to take care of the dog so we can assume the kid would be wise enough to stay clear of gunfire. If you have evidence she shot "wildly" please provide such. Remember, Marines tend to "do things by the book" and this includes discharging of a weapon following gun safety protocol.

So now with this new evidence we have a barely 3 foot alligator. Her first response was to try and push it out of the house but it's "ferocity was impressive" and it kept trying to get back in. The woman has a cane so it's doubtful she could outrun an alligator. From the article it seems to acknowledge she wouldn't have lost a life-death struggle with the alligator but I don't think she has to take that chance or other people should tell her either. She shouldn't have to put herself in harm's way or put up with a pest that's repeatedly trying to enter her home. I have no problem with what she did considering the unusual circumstances. Now with this new experience under her belt she could formulate a better gameplan (getting some sort of locking or blocking device for the dog door perhaps) but again with what she had available at the time I think she took an acceptable course of action.

[sat556]

Here's a picture of her. (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50253) She doesn't look particularly "handicapped".

:eye-poppi

[LW]

This episode brought to my mind an event that happened when I was living in Phillipines as a kid. One day, a snake came into our living room. It was tiny, scarcely over 10 cm long. My mother saw it and screamed, and then our guard run in, hunted the snake down and killed it with his gun (bludgeoned with the grip, he didn't shoot). Meanwhile me, my brother, and my mother were standing on chairs.

I was about 6 year old at the time so I have only vague recollections. I remember being amazed of how fast the snake moved.

I don't know what snake it was, I remember that the guard said that it was venomous. Possibly it was a young cobra. This happened in Davao on the island of Mindanao, in case some snake expert is curious. And I'm a bit curious to know if so small snake can inject enough venom to harm a human.

[CFLarsen]

Yeah, aside from the cane. :rolleyes:

My old mom uses a cane at times. Is she "handicapped"? Just what is needed before someone is "handicapped"?

There's no evidence she shot "wildly".

Yes, there is. Her own words.

If you dismiss that, you dismiss the whole story.

As you assumed the kid was old enough to take care of the dog so we can assume the kid would be wise enough to stay clear of gunfire.

In which case teenagers never get shot.

If you have evidence she shot "wildly" please provide such. Remember, Marines tend to "do things by the book" and this includes discharging of a weapon following gun safety protocol.

Read the article.

So now with this new evidence we have a barely 3 foot alligator. Her first response was to try and push it out of the house but it's "ferocity was impressive" and it kept trying to get back in.

No, that's not what it says in the article. They managed to push it out, after which the woman went to get her gun.

The woman has a cane so it's doubtful she could outrun an alligator. From the article it seems to acknowledge she wouldn't have lost a life-death struggle with the alligator but I don't think she has to take that chance or other people should tell her either. She shouldn't have to put herself in harm's way or put up with a pest that's repeatedly trying to enter her home. I have no problem with what she did considering the unusual circumstances. Now with this new experience under her belt she could formulate a better gameplan (getting some sort of locking or blocking device for the dog door perhaps) but again with what she had available at the time I think she took an acceptable course of action.

Hopefully, others will not start shooting either.

[richardm]

Take a look at the anatomy of a Golden Retriever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Retriever) and the anatomy of an alligator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alligator).

As you will discover, possibly for the first time in your life, is that the legs are somewhat longer on a Golden Retriever than on an alligator.

Since there is a threshold on the doggy door you so generously provided a link to, you will no doubt come to the conclusion that an animal - such as the alligator - will have some difficulty in getting through the door.

In particular, you will notice that the alligator's ability to jump is somewhat limited.

As I already mentioned, it could throw itself through the opening, and wiggle through. That would, naturally, give the woman time to flee, with her kid and dog.


I'm not so sure about this - alligators are frequently described as fast moving and agile. Plus, when they're walking they can raise themselves tolerably high off the ground. I'd not be surprised to learn that they could get themselves substantially over such a threshold in one lunge, and be off in hot pursuit of me in two.

However, it's a moot point because we now have a picture (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50253) of the doggy door in question:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/richardm/candyfrey1.jpg


But particularly easy access? Nah. I'll believe it when I see it, though. As always, I am persuaded by evidence. And evidence only.
I hope we can agree that there doesn't seem to be much of an height impediment there.

I'm quite sure I wouldn't be hanging around to find out how well alligators can operate my doors, however. But if I had a kid and a dog in tow I might very well be reaching for a weapon, and if I had a gun that would be my weapon of choice. In any case, you've got to get the damn thing out somehow - nobody wants a wild animal stomping around their house for longer than they need to (they crap everywhere and chew the furniture), and a gun is a conveniently long stick. And yeah, even if I shoved it out I would be sufficiently concerned about it to want to stop it getting back in again, and even to prevent it from trying. I'd treat a rat the same way, and that's probably a much less dangerous creature.

[HarryKeogh]

My old mom uses a cane at times. Is she "handicapped"? Just what is needed before someone is "handicapped"?

Yes, she is handicapped. (A physical or mental disability or a hindrance according to dictionary.com)



Yes, there is. Her own words.

If you dismiss that, you dismiss the whole story.


Where does she say she shot "wildly"?

In which case teenagers never get shot.

Sure. Right.



What I said:
So now with this new evidence we have a barely 3 foot alligator. Her first response was to try and push it out of the house but it's "ferocity was impressive" and it kept trying to get back in.

Your response:
No, that's not what it says in the article. They managed to push it out, after which the woman went to get her gun.

From the article: That gator's ferocity was impressive, as were its relentless efforts to get back onto the lanai after Frey pushed it back into the yard, but Frey's main concern had been about her pets.

Parse away, Clause.

[CFLarsen]

Yes, she is handicapped. (A physical or mental disability or a hindrance according to dictionary.com)

Does your body work perfectly? How many people on this planet can say that?

Where does she say she shot "wildly"?

"I was running on so much adrenaline," the 48-year-old former U.S. Marine aviation technician told the Sarasota Herald-Tribune. "I just freaked out and shot him _ boom, boom, boom, boom."

If that's not "wildly", I would love to hear your definition.

Sure. Right.

Yes, right. If teenagers always know when to stay clear of gunfire, then no teenagers are ever shot.

What I said:
So now with this new evidence we have a barely 3 foot alligator. Her first response was to try and push it out of the house but it's "ferocity was impressive" and it kept trying to get back in.

Your response:

From the article:

Parse away, Clause.

My name is Claus. Please have to courtesy of learning people's names.

When the reptile came into the lanai of her home east of Bradenton Saturday and attacked her golden retriever, Frey went and got her gun.

After Frey and her daughter managed to push the gator out of the lanai through the dog door, she blasted away at it four times.

We are both incorrect: Her first response was to get the gun, after which they managed to push the alligator out. And then, she blasted away.

I'm not so sure about this - alligators are frequently described as fast moving and agile. Plus, when they're walking they can raise themselves tolerably high off the ground. I'd not be surprised to learn that they could get themselves substantially over such a threshold in one lunge, and be off in hot pursuit of me in two.

However, it's a moot point because we now have a picture (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50253) of the doggy door in question:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/richardm/candyfrey1.jpg

I hope we can agree that there doesn't seem to be much of an height impediment there.

If that is the dog door, why are there even bigger gaps right next to it? Why would the dog need a door, if it could just get through the much bigger openings right next to the door?

I'm quite sure I wouldn't be hanging around to find out how well alligators can operate my doors, however. But if I had a kid and a dog in tow I might very well be reaching for a weapon, and if I had a gun that would be my weapon of choice. In any case, you've got to get the damn thing out somehow - nobody wants a wild animal stomping around their house for longer than they need to (they crap everywhere and chew the furniture), and a gun is a conveniently long stick.

A gun is a deadly weapon, not a stick.

And yeah, even if I shoved it out I would be sufficiently concerned about it to want to stop it getting back in again, and even to prevent it from trying. I'd treat a rat the same way, and that's probably a much less dangerous creature.

You want to shoot at a rat?

What won't you shoot? Cockroaches? Ants?

[HarryKeogh]

My name is Claus. Please have to courtesy of learning people's names.

It was a mistake, Claus. Just like "have to courtesy". I intended no offense.

[coalesce]

Ummm...for what it's worth, were I in that position, I'd still shoot it.

Thankfully, here in Brooklyn, I don't have to worry about alligators. I only have to worry about muggers, carjackers, filthy air, lead in the water, large warehouse fires, NYC drivers who got their driver's license just that morning from a box a breakfast cereal, terror attacks, etc.

Michael

[HarryKeogh]

If that is the dog door, why are there even bigger gaps right next to it? Why would the dog need a door, if it could just get through the much bigger openings right next to the door?


I was thinking the same thing but if you look at the shadow it's not nearly as bright as the daylight on the sidewalk coming through the gaps of the dog door. It looks like the shadow cast by glass.

[BPSCG]

If that is the dog door, why are there even bigger gaps right next to it? Why would the dog need a door, if it could just get through the much bigger openings right next to the door?And why would someone go to the trouble of installing that door in the first place? Answer: This looks very similar to the sun room at my house. If so, that is not an opening next to the dog door; it's tempered glass. Very tough for dogs to get through. Alligators, too.

On another note; I erred earlier when I said the gator had gotten into the house three times. Someone else posted that it had tried to get in repeatedly (no link supplied to that claim), and I apparently turned that into three times - probably because "three feet" shows up about every other post on this thread and I got the number three on the brain.

Admission of error. You might try it sometime, Claus.

[BPSCG]

Does your body work perfectly? How many people on this planet can say that?From the story (http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060518/COLUMNIST36/605180346):Though Frey is disabled and uses a cane to get around...Satisfied? Or are you now going to demand evidence like a doctor's X-ray of her back to prove that she really needs the cane, or something?

[richardm]

If that is the dog door, why are there even bigger gaps right next to it? Why would the dog need a door, if it could just get through the much bigger openings right next to the door?

I think it's pretty evident that those openings next to the door are actually glazed.

You want to shoot at a rat?

What won't you shoot? Cockroaches? Ants?
I have shot at rats. They arrive infrequently and cause problems with the chickens. I cannot lay regular traps because I have chickens, cats and a dog about the place. I cannot rely on humane traps because I have cats, rabbits and squirrels about the place. Rats are only occasional visitors, so I spend most of my time emptying humane traps of critters I don't want to catch. So I use a .22 rifle which does the job nicely.

I won't shoot cockroaches and ants because the expenditure on ammunition is too high if you want to make a difference to the populations ;) . However, in the interests of disclosure, in my misspent youth I did shoot at (and hit!) wasps (the black and yellow variety) with an airgun. Occasionally sticklebacks too, which is more challenging. That was to entertain my Id before my Superego developed and spoiled all the fun. These days I kill animals in order to either eat them or to protect my other animals.

[BPSCG]

I cannot lay regular traps because I have chickens, cats and a dog about the place. ... So I use a .22 rifle which does the job nicely.Sounds to me like your dog and cats aren't earning their keep. Maybe you feed them a little too well...

[SezMe]

It's a lot bigger than 2-3 feet but illustrates the danger. Linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aheDd-kShnw&search=alligator).

[richardm]

Sounds to me like your dog and cats aren't earning their keep. Maybe you feed them a little too well...
:D My dog is just 18 weeks old, so we'll see how that works out. My cat (singular - dunno how it ended up plural before) is a small female who has already been to the vet once after attacking a rat (she grabbed, it squirmed round and bit her on the shoulder, which ended up as a fairly major abscess.) So I'm quite happy to do that job myself. She looks after the mice, voles and rabbits for me. Not that we've been seeing many rabbits since the puppy arrived, funnily enough ;)

[BPSCG]

:D My dog is just 18 weeks old, so we'll see how that works out. Good dog for going after rodents is a cairn terrier (Dorothy's Toto). They're fairly small, were bred as rat hunters. Name comes from their ability to burrow after rats even in piles of rocks. My sister has one, and if he sees a rabbit or a squirrel when we're taking him for a walk, he'll break the leash or his neck (whichever comes first) trying to get after it.

[richardm]

Nice dogs. My neighbour keeps a couple of Jack Russells for ratting. Mine is a Border Collie; possibly she'll be able to herd the rats into a holding pen (or possibly not ;) )

[gnome]

If that's not "wildly", I would love to hear your definition.

Perhaps a description that uses the adverb "wildly", or perhaps one that's in any way synonymous with "wildly". oh, look, she didn't use any adverb at all to describe her shooting. Funny how you think you can fill one in. I will too! She freaked out and started shooting the dog maniacally. I can even hear her freakish laugher in my mind.

You attach a lot of significance to her words "freaked out". I see no reason to assume this means she was not in proper control of the weapon.

You speak a lot of drawing purely evidence-based conclusions... I know you insist on it from others. So why are you making assumptions you would NEVER let anyone else get away with?

[Jocko]

My old mom uses a cane at times. Is she "handicapped"? Just what is needed before someone is "handicapped"?


Must've crushed her pelvis, passing your ego during childbirth.

[ImaginalDisc]

Since there is a threshold on the doggy door you so generously provided a link to, you will no doubt come to the conclusion that an animal - such as the alligator - will have some difficulty in getting through the door.

In particular, you will notice that the alligator's ability to jump is somewhat limited.

As I already mentioned, it could throw itself through the opening, and wiggle through. That would, naturally, give the woman time to flee, with her kid and dog.

You have obviously never seen young alligators locomote, or jump. Young alligators, unlike their elders, hold their bodies off of the ground, and are capable of shorts busts of speed, and impressive leaps. That's part and parcel of their ambush hunting technique. Aligators leap and charge short distances. In fact, alligators frequently have to leap out of the water towards animals on dry land. That takes some serious fast twitch muscle fiber, which alligators have in spades.

[Bob Klase]

Once again, you have absolutely no knowledge of alligators. The threshold on the door you refer to above is probably less than 4 inches tall (certainly less than 6"). Alligators have legs and even a 3 foot gator could easily step over 4-6 inches. It wouldn't even require the gator to jump (and as you noted above, they're not good at jumping. But I'm sure that was a lucky guess and not based on any evidence that you can provide).

Look at the dog. It's a fully grown Golden Retriever.

And that fact has something to do with what I wrote?

[ImaginalDisc]

I've never "eatend" a hamburger. Does that include eating and, perhaps, spilling most of it on one's shirt and lap?



Well, that answers my question. At 54,303, there are only two cities in Alaska that are bigger; Anchorage and (barely) Fairbanks. In fact, that 54,303 figure is really close to the population of the entire Matanuska-Sustina Borough, which is larger than the state of West Virginia.

Damned big burger. Even my fat ass couldn't eat that.

I might be able to spill it on my shirt and lap, though........

I'm a big city guy, I suppose my standards are different. 54,000 is a piddling little town.

[Bob Klase]

OK, I get you: You do say that it is possible to find evidence of a best option. Let's see it.

It's certainly possible to get evidence that you wouldn't be willing to do what you claim is the best option.

What is the purpose of this rather childish scenario? What would this prove?

I just wrote, "It's certainly possible to get evidence that you wouldn't be willing to do what you claim is the best option."

That's what it would prove.

[Jocko]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8169270605970054952&q=alligator

Claus, here's a video of a Florida alligator immediately after getting run over by a boat. A reasoably big boat. Surely something you'd call unreasonably forceful, I'm sure.

Note its complete lack of injury, except to its attitude. Pay particular attention to the narration that explains how they can leap out of the water up to half their length... like 5-6 feet.

Then go hug one, because you're not going to be swayed by any silly facts, I'm sure.

[Jocko]

I'm a big city guy, I suppose my standards are different. 54,000 is a piddling little town.

Bradenton is an unofficial suburb of Sarasota, which is about 50% bigger if I recall. Both are growing fast. I used to live there till a couple years ago, and gators are a frequent nuisance. You never, ever dip your toe in a pond, because you never know what's living in it.

[ImaginalDisc]

Bradenton is an unofficial suburb of Sarasota, which is about 50% bigger if I recall. Both are growing fast. I used to live there till a couple years ago, and gators are a frequent nuisance. You never, ever dip your toe in a pond, because you never know what's living in it.

You're lecturing a Floridian about alligator safety here, Jocko.

[Jocko]

You're lecturing a Floridian about alligator safety here, Jocko.

Well, being a native Chicagoan, I look at Miami (and its lesser surrounding siblings) with the same indifference as you see Bradenton.

[ImaginalDisc]

Well, being a native Chicagoan, I look at Miami (and its lesser surrounding siblings) with the same indifference as you see Bradenton.

Good point. Though "Greater Miami" includes Surfside, Hialeah, Miami Shores, Doral, Kendall, Homstead, Aventura, and every other seperately incorporated ethnic or upper class enclave that has splintered away from the city for tax purposes. Include all of those, and you get a contiguous urban region with 2.5+ million people.