Ummm... Yeah. (Don't tell Kurious Kathy...)

[Roadtoad]

The main article's here. (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/05/12/notes051206.DTL)

Purity Balls. No, not some sort of newfangled spherical chastity device to be inserted using vacuum tubes and pulleys, but rather fancy creepy dress-up rituals taking place in towns like Colorado Springs and Tucson and Zoloft Jesusville, in which Christian dads rent a bad tux while their daughters, mostly teenagers but many as young as 6 or 7, get all dolled up in gowns from JCPenny and they all drive out to the airport Marriott and prepare to, well, lose their minds.

Good God.

[Roboramma]

That's disgusting. What a stupid, sick idea. Why can't young people just be taught the dangers (the real ones) and how to deal responsibly? These idiots need to realise that their daughters will have actual sexual desire (guess what's it's natural, and pretty well everyone experiences it) and whether or not they act on it is almost certainly independant of a pledge they made 10 years ago. Hell, two weeks for that matter.

On the other hand the article seems to be saying that we could solve all the world's problems if we all just had one big orgy. It goes from being very reasonable, to over the top "sexual liberation, yay!".

[bjb]

It is interesting that these fathers don't bring their sons along to make the same pledge. Why is chastity the responsibility of teenaged girls, and not boys?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Boys don't run the risk of a publicly embarrassing tummy bulge if they get frisky.

[Piscivore]

I looked at the site that Toad's link linked to, and now I feel dirty. Finally something offended me.

[BlackCat]

It is interesting that these fathers don't bring their sons along to make the same pledge. Why is chastity the responsibility of teenaged girls, and not boys?
I've always wondered that. Just another beautiful thing about our society -- double standards.

BlackCat

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

My opinions of the idea of chastity until marriage aside for the moment; that article was one of the most vitriolic writings I've read in quite a while.

Now, back to my opinions. I think most of the replies have already touched on my views of the topic in question. The sexist application of the ideas, the forced ignorance, etc

It would be interesting to see how many of the girls that participate in these "Purity Balls" break their promise.

[Piscivore]

My opinions of the idea of chastity until marriage aside for the moment; that article was one of the most vitriolic writings I've read in quite a while.

If so, I say we need more vitriol in the media.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It would be interesting to see how many of the girls that participate in these "Purity Balls" break their promise.

I would guess north of 90%.

[Starthinker]

This may be completely unfair but I just have a gut feeling there's a high rate of molestation in that group.

[Piscivore]

This may be completely unfair but I just have a gut feeling there's a high rate of molestation in that group.

That's my read too. The whole thing oozes incest and pedophillia. It's one thing for a dad to dance with his daughter at a relative's wedding or something. It's just f[rule 8]g sick to make a special event just for it.

[Trantor]

Wow, these Fundies are simply amazing. The sad thing is - they vote.

[JohnF_73]

I don't think it's COMPLETELY unfair.
Anyone that repressed is bound to have a few itchy perversions.

[I less than three logic]

I’ve seen father daughter dances before that were part of weddings and such, and I never really thought much of it. However, having a father and daughter only ball as a celebration of the daughter’s virginity is a bit disturbing.

[Yahzi]

I would guess north of 90%.
You would guess wrong, sir!

From the article:
No wonder over half of all teens who take any sort of virginity pledge end up breaking the ridiculous vow within a year (says a new Harvard study), and fully 88 percent end up having sex before marriage anyway.

See, it's actually south of 90%. :D

The other thing to learn from this is: virginity pledges are a 50-50 chance to get laid! Them is good odds!

Edit: I should have kept reading:
What's more, such silly pledges only result in more oral and anal sex among teens who try, vainly, to adhere.
Promiscious and perverse! :D

[Dr Adequate]

On the other hand the article seems to be saying that we could solve all the world's problems if we all just had one big orgy. It's gotta be worth a try.

[eri]

Medical testing is a more reliable gauge of adolescent sexual activity than their own reporting, Rosenbaum said.

Ha! That's great. One of the articles linked from the first said this. I think asking the kids is probably the wrong way to go - I remember filling out surveys like this when I was that age, and we never answered truthfully.

[eri]

President Bush has requested $206 million in federal funding for abstinence-only programs this year.

Fan-tastic. Is it 2008 yet?

[supercorgi]

Wow, this is pretty sick. It harkens back to the middle ages when a girl's only worth was her virginity. Once that was gone, the girl was considered 'ruined' for life. Nice that we're harken back to that earlier time. Forget the girl's accomplishments -- the only thing that matters is if her hyman is intact. :rolleyes:

[The Mutha]

My daughter's best friend is a wonderful girl. She's 17. Last year, we took her with us to Disney World for a week. Her mother called me right before we left and said "God's mission for me is that (insert daughter's name here) leaves this house a virgin". Well, it was all I could do not to say "too late!" but I figured that wouldn't do the daughter any favors.

Interestingly enough, her two sons (older then the daughter) were allowed to run completely wild and the oldest brought his girlfriend and his baby mama to Thanksgiving dinner last year.

Interesting how the fundies (and boy is this woman one of those!) are so vehement about making sure that their girls go to their marriage beds virgins, but don't appear to spend much time considering how they can help the kids become well-adjusted, productive members of society. And why would this woman be telling me her mission in life? She was not sure that she would allow her daughter to go to Disney World because it's "full of child rapists and murderers".

When I was in college (many moons ago) the fundie girls were the ones who went absolutely freaking wild in college or as soon as they got out of the oppressive atmosphere that was their upbringing. I assume it still holds?

[thaiboxerken]

These people are idiots. To the, women are either virgins or sluts.. there is no inbetween.

[luchog]

When I was in college (many moons ago) the fundie girls were the ones who went absolutely freaking wild in college or as soon as they got out of the oppressive atmosphere that was their upbringing. I assume it still holds?
In the various Christian communities, there is a stereotype of "PKs", aka, "Preacher's Kids", as wild, or at least fairly promiscuous. Dusty Springfield's "Son of a Preacher Man" is a good, if tame, example.

My experience was that this stereotype has a very strong grounding in fact.

[Polaris]

This may be completely unfair but I just have a gut feeling there's a high rate of molestation in that group.

When these people are involved, nothing is unfair.

[Polaris]

My daughter's best friend is a wonderful girl. She's 17. Last year, we took her with us to Disney World for a week. Her mother called me right before we left and said "God's mission for me is that (insert daughter's name here) leaves this house a virgin". Well, it was all I could do not to say "too late!" but I figured that wouldn't do the daughter any favors.

Interestingly enough, her two sons (older then the daughter) were allowed to run completely wild and the oldest brought his girlfriend and his baby mama to Thanksgiving dinner last year.

Interesting how the fundies (and boy is this woman one of those!) are so vehement about making sure that their girls go to their marriage beds virgins, but don't appear to spend much time considering how they can help the kids become well-adjusted, productive members of society. And why would this woman be telling me her mission in life? She was not sure that she would allow her daughter to go to Disney World because it's "full of child rapists and murderers".

When I was in college (many moons ago) the fundie girls were the ones who went absolutely freaking wild in college or as soon as they got out of the oppressive atmosphere that was their upbringing. I assume it still holds?

It takes threat of violent torture and death in Islamic societies to keep this from happening. Seems to me that if it wasn't for the rule of law in the US, the Christian fundamentalists would gladly use the same methods to ensure chastity (because, as we all know, recreational sex is MUCH, MUCH worse than murdering your child for it).

[Hamradioguy]

Check out a great indie film, "The Education of Shelby Knox" for more along this line...and an encouraging ending.

[Polaris]

Check out a great indie film, "The Education of Shelby Knox" for more along this line...and an encouraging ending.

I'll put it on my Netflix queue. Hopefully it will help cure the post-The War Within pessimism.

[Roadtoad]

I was headed out the door to work when I posted this thread. Too bad. So many said what I was thinking, (especially Supercorgi.) I mean, seriously, there is something genuinely warped in someone's thinking when a girl's hymen is the only indication she's worth a f***. (Sorry, I had to say it.)

Once you've figured this one out, it's no wonder divorced women are still shunned in Fundamentalist Churches. Stupidity is clearly not only infinite, but eternal.

[Zep]

OK, so a higher proportion of these girls are going to stay chaste, but not the boys. They get to run wild and sow their wild oats, presumably.

With whom, pray tell?

Well, obviously it will be those girls of that "community" who don't make or don't keep those vows, or with more educated and responsible girls from outside that community. That is, this process simply drives the boys out. At least, any of them that aren't buck-toothed squinty acne-farms with anancephaly. Like their dads...

[Mojo]

OK, so a higher proportion of these girls are going to stay chaste, but not the boys. They get to run wild and sow their wild oats, presumably.

With whom, pray tell? Each other, perhaps.

[jj]

The main article's here. (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/05/12/notes051206.DTL)


Good food!
Good meat!

Good God.
Let's eat.

I hardly know what to say, Toad. But then again, you can guess what it would take to get me in a tux and my older offspring into a ball gown.

[Hellbound]

When I was in college (many moons ago) the fundie girls were the ones who went absolutely freaking wild in college or as soon as they got out of the oppressive atmosphere that was their upbringing. I assume it still holds?

In the various Christian communities, there is a stereotype of "PKs", aka, "Preacher's Kids", as wild, or at least fairly promiscuous. Dusty Springfield's "Son of a Preacher Man" is a good, if tame, example.

My experience was that this stereotype has a very strong grounding in fact.

Being a former PK myself, I can say there is some truth to this. My parent's weren't fundamentalists (thankfully), but were fairly strict in thier rules and fairly black and white in morality/ethics.

A lot of the "run wild" is because you've been completely sheltered from it. You end up getting outr o fthe house and have had no expereince with, for example, sexual situations, drugs, drinking, or whatever. You don't know what it's like or what it does accurately. You encounter some of these things, and realize there are people who do some of them and thier lives aren't immediately ruined. IN fact many people may drink socially or be rather open in their sexuality and it only seems a source of pleasure and relaxation, nothing bad at all.

So there's a lot of factors at work here. One, your mind gets stuck on these topics because the evils of them are drilled into your head (some of the reasoning follows the lines of 'if these things ruin your life, but people still do them, they must be really, really good'). Second, there's the curiosity factor because you have zero or very little experience. Third, peer pressure of a sort. You're away from Xian peers (and people who would report your behavior to parents), and you most likely find new friends that partkae of some of the "sins".


I'm sure there's more, but that's a bit of my perspective (as a PK run wild).

[fuelair]

It takes threat of violent torture and death in Islamic societies to keep this from happening. Seems to me that if it wasn't for the rule of law in the US, the Christian fundamentalists would gladly use the same methods to ensure chastity (because, as we all know, recreational sex is MUCH, MUCH worse than murdering your child for it).



SSAE117,W18,TTDF all< contact scale 4

[Starthinker]

SSAE117,W18,TTDF all< contact scale 4

Huh?

[Polaris]

Huh?

Ditto.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Huh?
He either just got the Holy Spirit or he's calling in an air strike.

[Meffy]

Weird. "Contact scale" is a term used in sociology and photo printing. The rest appears to be gibberish but might be shorthand choreography for the "stagger, stagger, lurch" scene in the movie "Yellowbeard." I can't get to a conclusion from there.

[Polaris]

Still waiting on that explanation, Fuelair.

Btw, is your moniker related in any way to my recent posts in the Loose Change forum?

[Polaris]

Still waiting on that explanation, Fuelair.

Btw, is your moniker related in any way to my recent posts in the Loose Change forum?

[Starthinker]

I am so glad I wasn't the only one not getting that. I thought it was code for "fathers, pick any daughter but your own and head home."

[fuelair]

Sorry re:cryptic - it applies to an earlier posting and no response answered it so... Cannot (will accept will not ) give out further info on it except contact is a specific procedure and the rest is specific to the posting. Again, apologies for any confusion. Should be very rare occurence. No further response on this will be forthcoming.

[fuelair]

Sorry about missing an unrelated question - the name is my favorite WMD. About which I must add that I was really annoyed X10^23 that same was not used as -per pre-publicity - was supposedly planned re:Iraq/Moab (I have a rule about war which is quite well stated by a WWII statement of which the end is "let the other poor s. o. b. die for his.")

[Polaris]

Sorry about missing an unrelated question - the name is my favorite WMD. About which I must add that I was really annoyed X10^23 that same was not used as -per pre-publicity - was supposedly planned re:Iraq/Moab (I have a rule about war which is quite well stated by a WWII statement of which the end is "let the other poor s. o. b. die for his.")

You must be referring to the Big Blue 82. I've seen footage of this monster creating instant LZs in Vietnam.

I'm not exactly sure if you can classify it as a WMD, since it's neither a tactical nor strategic weapon.

[fuelair]

I do not remember the official designation but it was referred to as Mother of all Bombs and was supposed to be the largest fuel-air bomb in existence. FABs use fuel (originally flammable liquids, later very finely powdered metals) which at a predetermined level (low) is forced out to form a large fuel cloud which is fired off by an explosive (in the bomb) charge. High overpressure, heat and resultant high underpressure do interesting thing to biological systems (though they do perfectly well also for ground (building, bunker, etc.) over a large area. The result is highly educational for persons coming into the area after the explosion and I have never heard of survivors within the blast area (oh - in bunkers, the flame effect is minimized with depth - but the underpressure effect removes the air - so....)

[westphalia]

Once you've figured this one out, it's no wonder divorced women are still shunned in Fundamentalist Churches. Stupidity is clearly not only infinite, but eternal.

Nope. A cursory look at fundamentalist churches would show even a casual observer that fundamentalists are going after divorcees and single-parent households like never before. I don't know where you got the idea that they're shunned, but they're not shunned in today's fundamentalism. In Assemblies of God churches, for example, there is actually a higher incidence of remarriage within the confines of the church than in the population at large. Southern Baptists show similar numbers. Other wacko Pentacostal sects are harder to figure, because they are so loosely-organized and don't engage in much internal study (Faith Tabernacle, for example.). (Side note: In the Assemblies of God, the rate of multiple marriages [being married three or more times] is actually much higher than in the US population, even among the clergy.)

The people who make up fundamentalist churches come from US society. The divorce rate among Southern Baptists and Pentacostals in this country is almost precisely the same as among the population at large. I don't have numbers for other fundamentalist sects.

I don't mind the vitrol aimed at fundamentalists (I'm a PK, after all, and know as well as the next guy how silly it all was), and actually enjoy watching folks step on each other in their rush to come up with the most damning indictment of Christians, but we should have our facts right.

The news article does make me want to take a bath, though. Creepy. I got the same feeling reading that as I did when I was asked to join the Cub Scouts. Let's see - you want me to dress in little shorts, then march out into the woods and sleep in a tent with older men who also dress in little shorts, despite being in the woods, where ticks, mosquitoes and snakes are present? No thanks.

[Roadtoad]

Nope. A cursory look at fundamentalist churches would show even a casual observer that fundamentalists are going after divorcees and single-parent households like never before. I don't know where you got the idea that they're shunned, but they're not shunned in today's fundamentalism. In Assemblies of God churches, for example, there is actually a higher incidence of remarriage within the confines of the church than in the population at large. Southern Baptists show similar numbers. Other wacko Pentacostal sects are harder to figure, because they are so loosely-organized and don't engage in much internal study (Faith Tabernacle, for example.). (Side note: In the Assemblies of God, the rate of multiple marriages [being married three or more times] is actually much higher than in the US population, even among the clergy.)

The people who make up fundamentalist churches come from US society. The divorce rate among Southern Baptists and Pentacostals in this country is almost precisely the same as among the population at large. I don't have numbers for other fundamentalist sects.

I don't mind the vitrol aimed at fundamentalists (I'm a PK, after all, and know as well as the next guy how silly it all was), and actually enjoy watching folks step on each other in their rush to come up with the most damning indictment of Christians, but we should have our facts right.

The news article does make me want to take a bath, though. Creepy. I got the same feeling reading that as I did when I was asked to join the Cub Scouts. Let's see - you want me to dress in little shorts, then march out into the woods and sleep in a tent with older men who also dress in little shorts, despite being in the woods, where ticks, mosquitoes and snakes are present? No thanks.

Sorry, but our experience was as described.

[westphalia]

It's been my experience (uh-oh) that on this forum, anecdotes and phrases like "I suppose," "Something tells me," "I'll bet," etc., get knocked down pretty quickly by those of us who strive to think critically. We don't accept anecdotal evidence from anyone, and want to see facts, studies, statistics, etc. (Edgar Cayce thread, anyone?)

We can't start making assumptions about the truth simply because the subject matter is fundamentalist religion - something with which we don't agree. We're either critical thinkers, or we aren't.

We all agree that virginity pledge pageants are creepy. But no one takes one word of that silly article to task for the sweeping generalisations and baseless assumptions made by the author? The problem in marriage is virginity? Folks are having too little sex? We all ought to want marriage partners with as much sexual mileage as possible? What?!

It just seems to me that a forum filled with critical thinkers should be able to do better, that's all.

[westphalia]

I do agree, though, that we shouldn't tell Kurious Kathy. That's just good old-fashioned pragmatism.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

What's more, such silly pledges only result in more oral and anal sex among teens who try, vainly, to adhere

I think adhesion is a bad thing during sex.

[Roadtoad]

Unless, of course, you're some sort of warped kink, in which case, it can be wonderful.

[westphalia]

"Adhesion during sex."

HAHAHA!!! I have to remember that one.

[elaine]

I just read the article

*shudder*

I think I'll go take a shower now.

[Shrike]

Oh my ed.
I clicked on the link in the article.
:hb:

Actually, as said in one of the responses, a lot of muslims tend to think the same way. Especially those living in the west. The boys can get all the girls (western girls - they're considerd ho's) they want, while the girls have to stay home and remain 'pure'. No stories yet though of 'islamic girls gone wild', but some sad stories of girls abandoned by their families because of falling in love with a westerner...

[Lynx2174]

O.o

oookay. seriously. wierd.



I do not remember the official designation but it was referred to as Mother of all Bombs and was supposed to be the largest fuel-air bomb in existence. FABs use fuel (originally flammable liquids, later very finely powdered metals) which at a predetermined level (low) is forced out to form a large fuel cloud which is fired off by an explosive (in the bomb) charge. High overpressure, heat and resultant high underpressure do interesting thing to biological systems (though they do perfectly well also for ground (building, bunker, etc.) over a large area. The result is highly educational for persons coming into the area after the explosion and I have never heard of survivors within the blast area (oh - in bunkers, the flame effect is minimized with depth - but the underpressure effect removes the air - so....)

sorry to everyone for continuting this offtopic bit but:
the MOAB is an airburst weapon, but it isn't a fuel-air explosive. it is merely a very large (18000lb) conventional bomb. the BLU-82 is also not a fuel-air explosive, it is another large conventional bomb which is used for creating LZs which is detonated by a rod before it hits the ground proper. the daisy cutter has been used on people in afghanistan, but the MOAB hasn't been used.

I wouldn't call either a WMD by a long shot, posessing several times less power than the smallest nuclear weapon ever deployed (W-54, 20-40 tons of TNT equivalent) and something like a thousandth the power of the ones used at the end of WW2, which themselves are small by today's standards. nobody uses them widely, and none exist on "WMD" scales. the US has some fuel-air weapons in the form of SMAW rockets, and Israel uses them for mine clearing. thermobaric and FAE weapons are useful because of their ability to negate cover, but they have an exteremly high failure rate.

[articulett]

It's just so...unsettling. Pretty young girls...dancing with dad...in a ceremony to swear off the penises of males they haven't yet met...I mean ...daddy...balls...penises...virginity...

Are these things that go together when you think of wholesome family fun? Do these girls grow up and show their offspring these special photos of daddy celebrating ownership over the vaginas?

It's just too...

eeewwww (Christians really are seriously mentally ill, don't you think--I mean, not just Kathy--but the whole lot of them...)

[Outhere]

As a former repressed guilt-ridden Catholic girl (no longer any of those) I found that a thing is more fun if you think it's a sin. Many of these virginity pledgers have a great revelation in store.

[Outhere]

Maybe I'm more repressed than I thought. I said "thing" instead of "sex." I never tried bank robbery or becoming a member of Congress.

[Roadtoad]

My wife grew up a fundamentalist Baptist. She never dealt with any of this, (of course, we're doddering our way into our fifties... *sob*), and in mentioning it to her, she sat and said, "Ew." There's something seriously creepy in this. I can't put my finger on it, but if anyone I knew were involved in it, I think I'd either turn them in to CPS, or turn the garden hose on Dad while they were headed to the car.

[wollery]

Maybe I'm more repressed than I thought. I said "thing" instead of "sex." I never tried bank robbery or becoming a member of Congress.Becoming a member of Congress is a sin??? :confused:

[articulett]

Becoming a member of Congress is a sin??? :confused:

no, but it appears you need to be indicted.

[articulett]

There's something seriously creepy in this. I can't put my finger on it,

ewww....you said "put my finger on it"...

[fuelair]

Lynx 2174 is quite correct on the nature of the MOAB. In my defense, however when it was originally announced (the only time I actively checked on it) the sources available (Orlando Sentinel, tv news) specified that it was a big daisy-cutter (FAE/FAB) and more than one called it a fuel air bomb and specified that the it dispersed/ignited metal powder. On reading Lynx data, I went Dogpiling and found fairly quickly where my sources info came from and verification that they had been wrong (the aluminum is part of an explosive mixture used in the MOAB. Oddly, none of the - even new - sources mentioned a high failure rate. If true, quite a shame. As to the WMD aspect, anyone know numbers required to be mass destruction (haven't seen any but.......