NCH Pakistan, MAS's stamping ground, undergoing policy upheavals

[Zep]

I have been a regular contributor to the www.nchpakistan.com homeopathy forum for a few months now. We were told that there were some internal political upheavals happening there, so we were awaiting the outcome silently.

Today, their forum is down, with the following announcement:The previous President of NCH has been de-notified by the health Ministry. The new group of members who is likely to take over NCH office control wants to implement new policy according to their party manifesto. We have been given instruction to bring those changes at web site as well as at forum according to that new plan and NCH office set up. The new president of NCH will take oath on 23 May 2006, till then the policy of NCH office Islamabad is not clear. The forum is closed for necessary changes and implementation of policies for 24 hours or so. The NCH bulletin board web team is negotiating with NCH Office barriers to implement adequate policy. Please visit again for forcible features. Aurangzeb@worldcall.net.pkYou should know that Mr Aurangzeb is the acknowledged owner and manager of the official NCHPakistan website and forum, NOT MAS, despite his attempts to insinuate otherwise.

Given that their forum was contributed to mostly by a few of us skeptics, and that MAS was getting a hard time even from his own crowd there, anyone care to speculate wildly what this "new policy" for it may be? :D

Incidentally, I still have no idea what the process of "de-notification by the (Pakistani) Health Ministry" means or involves. It sounds like they have taken him off their Christmas-card list... Any clues, someone?

Meanwhile, I'm having a quiet Google...


ETA: The main website remains available, but it is unchanged. Then again, it never changed before either...

[Zep]

Found this:Probe into National Council for Homeopathy affairs demanded: The central office bearers of Pakistan Homeopathic Medical Association have demanded probe into the alleged incompetence and financial irregularities in the National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan to address the problems faced by homeopathic doctors.

Addressing a convention held at the Allama Iqbal Homeopathic Medical College Sialkot, the central leaders, Dr Inam Ullah Mirza, Dr Muhammad Gulzar Kiyani, Dr Javaid Awan and Dr Syed Munawar Hussain Shah, praised the 18-point show cause notice issued to Nasir Mehmood Choudhary, president National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan, by the Syed Anwar Mehmood, federal health secretary.

The speakers expressed concern over illegal working of president National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan, as the president have been voted out during a successful No Confidence Move because of corruption, financial bungling allegations.

The convention nominated Dr Inamullah Mirza as a candidate for the presidental post of National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan

The other central leaders of National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan including Dr Muhammad Ashraf Choudhary, Mehbooul Haq Abbasi, Dr Syed Hassan Akhtar, Dr Mazhar Ali Bhatti, Dr Syed Munawar Naqvi and Dr Rao Ghulam Murtaza attended the convention.Daily Times, Pakistan, 20 May 2006 http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C05%5C06%5Cstory_6-5-2006_pg7_43

[Meffy]

Wow, dramatic stuff going on. Thanks for the shovel work.

I wonder whether the oath the previous president took had been diluted past the Avogadro limit...

[Zep]

The "outgoing" president was apparently a patron of Dr. MAS, judging by MAS's strong support for him in various places. Although it is hard to tell if that is simply Pakistani politics at work...

[Meffy]

The "outgoing" president
<LameGunneryJoke> outgoing = has been fired and is headed the other way </LameGunneryJoke>

[Mojo]

Incidentally, I still have no idea what the process of "de-notification by the (Pakistani) Health Ministry" means or involves. It sounds like they have taken him off their Christmas-card list... Any clues, someone? Homoeopathy in Pakistan seems to be a regulated profession, under the Unani Ayurvedic and Homoeopathic Practitioners Act 1965 (I've checked and it really does exist). Perhaps the "de-notification" is something to do with this.

[Mojo]

The "outgoing" president was apparently a patron of Dr. MAS, judging by MAS's strong support for him in various places. Although it is hard to tell if that is simply Pakistani politics at work...Was he the guy with the white hair and grey beard who MAS kept getting himself into photos with?

ETA: I've just had a look at the NCH website, and Dr. Nasir Ahmed Choudhry (the aforementioned white haired guy) is still described as president. Oddly, he's also described as chairman of the Pakistan Homeopathic Doctors Association, the body apparently demanding the probe into the affairs of the NCH.

I'm confused.

[Zep]

Yes, he's the one with the white hair and beard that MAS keeps trying to get photographed with. (I think MAS stalks him! :))

I would not be surprised about the organisational membership - the whole Pakistani homeopathic health setup seems remarkably incestuous. He will probably end up investigating himself! Or the WHCC will do the investigation... ;)

[strathmeyer]

De-notified? Doesn't that mean... that... they killed him?

[Zep]

Progress report: 24 hours in Pakistani homeopath time has now stretched to 48 hours real time...

[Mojo]

Progress report: 24 hours in Pakistani homeopath time has now stretched been diluted to 48 hours real time...;)

[Zep]

Progress report #2: The NCH forum is back on the air now. And the forum owner is asking for discussion about whether skeptics should be allowed post on their forum in future. And he has posted all the same old tired excuses and lies about skeptics, many of them seeming to echo Dr. MASheikh's complaints VERY closely. Maybe he's MAS's cousin or something...or owes him money?? ;)

But there's one added twist, now, and it's starting to smell like the disreputable and execrable Hpathy and otherhealth all over again...my account have now been forbidden to post on the NCH forum! I'm waiting to hear of any of the other skeptics' accounts have been similarly treated.

Clearly the NCH forum management would love to hold a kangaroo court without even allowing the "defendant" to appear, let alone testify in his own defence! Yep, fairness and honesty don't seem to be a part of some Pakistani homeopaths' repetoire.

[steenkh]

The forum owner asks for comments, and I have just sent him this per email, because the forum is closed for posting:
Dear Worldcall,

You asked for comments on your post about banning skeptics. You mention 4 points:

> a. Homeopathy is not a acceptable therapeutic system to skeptics.

True. Scientific studies and 150 years of experience has clearly shown that homoeopathy is worthless. This fact is of course not palatable to homoeopaths, but in the approx. 1 year that I have posted on the NCH forum, they have produced nothing to challenge this view. I see my as a skeptic role to help homoeopaths understand the scientific position, and guide them to gain scientific recognition, if that is at all possible.

I am not posting to wreck homoeopathy, and I do not believe homoeopaths in general are frauds or quacks. That is why I want to help them.

> b. The default position of skeptics is that they want evidence in the form
> of double blind controlled study.

What is wrong in producing reliable evidence? We have such evidence of all medicines that work, and there is no reason why homoeopathy should not produce it - if it worked. If homoeopaths can come up with another method to gain reliable evidence, it would also be acceptable, but homoeopaths have not come up with something that could show that there is a difference between administering blank pills and homoeopathic pills.

On this forum we have actually shown double blind protocols that could easily be used for homoeopathy, and some homoeopaths have shown interest in them. I cannot see why that is not a fruitful dialogue.

It is not correct that proper clinical controlled studies have been shown on the forum. The few studies that have had any controls at all, have not been reproduced elsewhere, and they have also not been published in peer-reviewed magazines.

That skeptics are using the same arguments over and again is simply the result of homoeopaths using the same arguments again, or even more strangely, that homoeopaths do not argue at all, but act as if the criticism does not exist.

I have tried to make homoeopaths criticize skeptic positions by asking them where they believe skeptics are wrong. However, homoeopaths have not engaged in such discussions. I believe it is because they do not believe strongly in their own case, and possibly also because very few homoeopaths on this forum have sufficient skills to be able to voice such critique.

If there is a stalemate, I believe that homoeopaths are the ones responsible, and to follow the logic of the person using this argument, it should be the homoeopaths who are banned!

> c. Homeopaths are not against scientific study of homeopathy.

This is interesting, because scientific methods and thinking is to be banned from the forum!

One prominent homoeopath, Dr. MAS, has repeatedly claimed that homoeopathy can be explained scientifically, but for more than a year he has always shied away from actually trying to do so. He is always deflecting, cracking jokes, and boasting about his own abilities, but there is no substance: he is not able to deliver! The only scientific fact he has brought to attention in more than a year of posting here, is that homoeopathic pharmacies use very sloppy lab procedures and that possibly homoeopathy works exactly because of this sloppiness (if it works at all).

> d. On skeptics forum, Homeopaths are not allowed to discuss their topics.
> For homeopaths they have different criterias and rules.

This must be Dr. MAS talking! Homoeopaths can discuss as much as they want, but Dr. MAS has had a great deal of problems in keeping some very simple rules that are the same for everybody. The rules that caused him to be banned from the JREF forum is that he continually lets different person use his user name. He has been warned about this, but he still continued his practice, and got banned. Several skeptics get banned for similar offences. He has also had difficulty in understanding perfectly clear (if stupid) copyright rules, but if Dr. MAS thinks that he has been hit harder than others, it is because he has never engaged in serious discussions. He thinks that it is great fun to open 20 threads about the same topic, to counter arguments with nonsense, and to register with more than one user name. Because of his behaviour - and not because of homoeopathy - he has been treated with more firmness than what would have happened to a serious poster.

It is very funny that Dr. MAS believes that he should have revenge by banning skeptic users from the homoeopathic forum! I can only say that I have been here to help homoeopaths and if they are not interested, it is OK with me. I have other things to do. You can ban me, or just tell me that my presence is unwanted, and I will be gone.

steenkh

[SezMe]

Yep, fairness and honesty don't seem to be a part of some Pakistani homeopaths' repetoire.
No fair, Zep. "Fairness and honesty" are abundant in 30C quantities, you just can't detect them. :) :) :)

[Zep]

Steen, if EVERYONE is stopped from posting on the NCH forum, I will withdraw and apologise for all comments made in post #12. But if posts appear at NCH from a homeopath and I still cannot post, then it will bear out what I have written.

[steenkh]

Well, until now, nobody has written anything new there, so I think everybody are blocked. If the homoeopaths could write, at least some of them would have defended us, some would have written to gloat, and several would have asked what is going on.

Worldcall has previously written that he is not familiar with the forum, and he is not a homoeopath, so he just does what he is told. I do not believe that somebody has made a proscription list for the NCH forum - yet!

ETA: But everything points to a new policy where skeptics are to be banned. They just have some internal wrangling to go through first!

[Zep]

Yep, that's my expectations too.

Do you think if we took of the T-shirt that says I'M A SKEPTIC! that they would notice we still are? ;)

[Mojo]

Well, until now, nobody has written anything new there, so I think everybody are blocked. If the homoeopaths could write, at least some of them would have defended us, some would have written to gloat, and several would have asked what is going on. Worldcall has asked to be contacted via email, which also suggests that posting and PMs are disabled.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

ETA: The main website remains available, but it is unchanged. Then again, it never changed before either...

I see the home page has a picture of (now dead) General Zia pinning a medal on a (now dead) homeopath and (now dead) General Zia signing autographs. They really are at the bleeding edge of the modern world, aren't they.

[strathmeyer]

And the forum owner is asking for discussion about whether skeptics should be allowed post on their forum in future.

How will they tell who is a skeptic and who is a homoeopath fraud? If someone asks a question, like "I have an ear infection, what should I take?" doesn't that make them a skeptic about something?

[steenkh]

How will they tell who is a skeptic and who is a homoeopath fraud? If someone asks a question, like "I have an ear infection, what should I take?" doesn't that make them a skeptic about something?
No, but if a poster mentions "double blind testing", or "placebo", he is surely a skeptic and should be banned!

ETA: Should perhaps be corrected to: No, but if a poster knows the meaning of "double blind testing", or "placebo", he is surely a skeptic and should be banned!

[flume]

(BTW, this stimulated me to ask a question about Avogadro's number, but I put it in one of Dr. A Sheikh's old Avogadro number topics in the General Skepticism forum.)

[Zep]

Progress report: All posting and new topics on the forum are STILL shut down. However it appears this applies to selected people only. :rolleyes:

One of the homeopath posters has contacted me via email to confirm he cannot post (indirectly - he wanted to discus another subject, and had to use this method).

Poster Worldcall there (Mr Aurangzeb, the forum owner) has amended the above post that Steen quoted to complain about much more recent incidents here on this forum, plus to direct a stack of personal vitriol and lies aimed specifically at me.

Two points arise:

1) It seems Mr Aurangzeb has no trouble posting, so he is taking advantage of it to poison the well in no uncertain terms (NOT homeopathically, that is).

2) Clearly he is being fed this spurious rubbish by MAS and co. I have emailed him via the site Admin stating my case and asking for at least a right of reply. But given the mindset we seem to be dealing with, expecting adult maturity, honesty and fairness from this subset of the Pakistani homeopaths is a disappearing hope.

Here's my quote from above:Clearly the NCH forum management would love to hold a kangaroo court without even allowing the "defendant" to appear, let alone testify in his own defence! Yep, fairness and honesty don't seem to be a part of some Pakistani homeopaths' repetoire.I don't think I am going to have to apologise for that or withdraw anything. Sadly...

[Meffy]

Sheesh. >:-S Doesn't take much to turn "bully pulpit" into that stuff Penn and Teller named a show after.

[Zep]

Progress report: Well, it appears that the claim of "The forum is closed for necessary changes and implementation of policies for 24 hours or so." has gone by the wayside. STILL no access to the forum by anyone except Mr Aurangzeb, who has now posted this garbled mess purportedly from MAS:I am not against any skeptic rather I would be much interested in calling myself as “Skeptic Homeopath”, Skeptics are not problem with me, Yes, I am a “problem” for them. (Laugh: D) “Banning” is not an issue to me. I used all possible channels with skeptics and exchanged number of mails. I also “requested” to them to remove restriction but they have mentally decided to push me out just because I was riding on their nerves. I did not breech any rule at any forum. Replying of mails whether place at bottom of forum is not breech of rules. The account was also not in use by others. No evidence was also provided to me. I have also closed down the issue after using all proper / possible channels. I used the channel because no body in future could not remind me that they have no hint. So don’t relate your NCH case with me I am cheerful just like I was. If I am not there does not matter. wink.gif Move a head and enjoy discussion.In short, MAS does not acknowledge that he did anything wrong, and continues to lie about the fact he clearly broke the forum rules and boasted about it. FWIW, an early message from me to Mr Aurangzeb addressing precisely this subject has gone unreported and unposted.

Fairness? Honesty? Integrity? We're still waiting... :rolleyes:

[Ducky]

Progress report: Well, it appears that the claim of "The forum is closed for necessary changes and implementation of policies for 24 hours or so." has gone by the wayside. STILL no access to the forum by anyone except Mr Aurangzeb, who has now posted this garbled mess purportedly from MAS:In short, MAS does not acknowledge that he did anything wrong, and continues to lie about the fact he clearly broke the forum rules and boasted about it. FWIW, an early message from me to Mr Aurangzeb addressing precisely this subject has gone unreported and unposted.

Fairness? Honesty? Integrity? We're still waiting... :rolleyes:



Mr Aurangzeb appears to actually be MAS in that statement. Interesting.

How many socks does he need?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

How many socks does he need?

We may be dealing with a centipede.

[steenkh]

It is quite exasperating that I have now written two long letters to mr. Aurangzeb, and from both he has only published a couple of short sentences. And he actually promised to bring the whole lot in one of his posts.
Here is the second email I sent to him:
The initial post has been extended with several comments, so I will also extend my reply:

Dr. MAS continues: "c. Dr. MAS tells us that "On private sector, a team of scholars (all Ph.D) with the efforts of NCH discussion forum are also doing research work on homeopathic medicines in Agriculture University Faisalabad Pakistan. Its preliminary report has been received and very positive results are intimated to NCH forum with documentary proof." This is all very well. Are the controls correctly in place? Homoeopathic research is littered with studies made by Ph.D's without proper controls. We expect to see this published in a peer-reviewed magazine! Surely, Dr. MAS does not expect the laws of physics to come crashing down because of one study? Dr. MAS continues: "After that what is the need of skeptic members then?". Well, apparently he does! Obviously, if a single study that is not peer-reviewed and has not been replicated anywhere else shows positive results, Dr. MAS has no need of skeptics!

Apparently homoeopaths prefer to live in their own world with no critics around. Well, that is their choice. The problems with their studies and their theories do not disappear just because the skeptics disappear!

Dr. MAS also claims that skeptics "fiddle with patients". I remember clearly when skeptics pointed out a potential deadly problem with a homeopathic prescription. The homoeopathic reaction was not to prove it wrong (they could not), but to censor the text so that the skeptic remarks vanished. I have yet to see skeptic advice to the patients that was not helpful or was harmful!

d. Dr. MAS has had lots of problems at the JREF which stems from his basic inability to follow simple instructions and his wish to circumvent or break the rules. From the very beginning he has never tried to engage in serious debate but has only come to see how much stir he could cause. Can the same be said of skeptics? We have tried again and again to engage in real debate only to be met by silence or ridicule. Homoeopaths have even tried the same tactics of trying to wreck debates here at the NCH forum, but fortunately, such pranks have stopped. Have skeptics ever done such things?

If MAS had been serious, he might have been given more leeway, and his inability to follow rules would perhaps not have been dealt with so swiftly. There are several homoeopaths registered at the JREF forum that have had no problems and have never been banned. Likewise, there have been many skeptics banned at the JREF. There is no special rules directed against homoeopaths there, only against individuals who break the rules.

In any case, I cannot see why the practice at the JREF should have any bearing on the rules at the NCH forums, because surely, if things are wrong at the JREF, that would not be an excuse to make them wrong at the NCH?

The ending sentence of section c is interesting, because it shows that the writer does not know what he is talking about: "They play with homeopaths by putting fictitious patient cases not only at homeopathic forums but also at skeptic forums. The motive is not something to discuss positive rather to humliate homeopaths." This fictitious patient case is not from the JREF, but never mind! It was also not a skeptic who presented the ficitious case, but a homoeopath, and another homoeopath blundered into it and recommended a life-threatening treatment. And skeptics pointed it out! Surely, homoeopaths were humiliated, but that was because of their own actions!

e. The private information that the "Bad Homeopath" complained about was actually public information, and there is no rule against publishing the same information at the JREF. Sorry, there is no case here! The "Bad Homeopath" can be upset because it is impolite to publish the data, but no rules have been broken here or there.

f. Again, it seems that what is going on at the JREF seems strangely important to people here at the NCH. As far as I know, there no rules against socks here, so even if Zep is John Richard Bsc, no rule is broken. If the administrator has evidence that Zep is a previously banned member, Zep can be banned, too. This regularly happens at the JREF (which homoeopaths seem to admire so much) so the same practice could be applied here.

g. Again a case where Dr. MAS has difficulty understanding rules. This may be a silly rule, but at least it is simple, and Dr. MAS cannot publish that material there in full. MAS, grow up, and quote the material like everybody else. There is no need to complain here at the NCH because you have difficulty following rules at another forum. What you should do is to demand that this forum does not have such rules!

steenkh

[SezMe]

Centipede diluted C30. Can you imagine that nightmare?

*ugh* I won't be able to sleep tonight.

[Meffy]

I used the channel because no body in future could not remind me that they have no hint.
A triple negative! Does this reveal that MAS is/are not Pakistani but Molvanian?

[Zep]

Progress report:

The NCHPakistan website has now been updated to show the election news of the incoming council president. Well, good luck to him.

Meanwhile, on the forum, Worldcall has posted a few more relevant posts about topics, but I am still locked out of posting or starting topics. No-one else seems to be responding either, however. Just like yesterday, and the day before... :rolleyes:

This is the Pakistani homeopathic version of "24 Hours"... :D

[The_Fire]

Would that make you Jack Bauer? In that case, I feel for you. That guy have nothing but a string of "worst days in the life of Jack Bauers life" days going on.....

[Zep]

Never watched that show, myself, although I understand it's fairly passably entertaining. :)

No, this is to compare and contrast the stated intention of the NCH forum notification of being off the air for "24 hours or so" with the actuality of it being a no-post-zone for at least 4 days now, and no prospect of change. In fact, we are being led to believe that someone is, even now, seiving the username database there, deciding who is naughty and gets banned, and who is nice and will be allowed post again.

In summary, this situation has all the hallmarks of that forum being turned into yet another copy of the other ratbag homeopath forums, where the members cannot stand even a hint of a question that would make them have to justify their stance. Let alone produce evidence. Skeptics have been known to be banned in literally minutes, and without even posting once. True! :)

[Blue Bubble]

In fact, we are being led to believe that someone is, even now, seiving the username database there, deciding who is naughty and gets banned, and who is nice and will be allowed post again.

In summary, this situation has all the hallmarks of that forum being turned into yet another copy of the other ratbag homeopath forums, where the members cannot stand even a hint of a question that would make them have to justify their stance. Let alone produce evidence. Skeptics have been known to be banned in literally minutes, and without even posting once. True! :)

Hmmm... maybe time to re-register under a different name (aka sock) ?

I'll need a nice woo-sounding name ... I'm getting an "M" ... Melanie sounds very appropriate. ;)

[Zep]

Could.

NOT.

Be.

Bothered.

:rolleyes:

[Meffy]

Hmmm... maybe time to re-register under a different name (aka sock) ?

I'll need a nice woo-sounding name ... I'm getting an "M" ... Melanie sounds very appropriate. ;)
Not Moonflower Blessing? Nu, I must've read the etheric vibrations wrong.

[Darat]

My account still seems to there and active but I can't post.

[Zep]

Progress report: STILL no posting by anyone but the owner, Worldcall. And he's posted on all forums now, including the latest "report proves homeopathy...not!" (see another thread here).

I'm suspecting these thoughts are going through his head:

1) He can't find the ignition switch for the forum. Or he's lost the keys down the back of the couch or something. Great... :rolleyes:

2) He just wants to use it as his own personal blog and bulletin-board. Dog-in-a-manger sort of thing. Neh. So why have a forum at all? Just post on the website and be done with it.

3) He's in a real quandry (Mk 1). If he lets ANY posters back in again, he will have to allow the skeptics too. Because there is no official reason to ban them as they have never broken any of the local forum rules. He also knows we post here about his forum, so he risks exposure of such actions at a higher level than he can cover up himself.

4) He's in a REAL quandry! (Mk 2) If he does ban the skeptics only, like he has been pestered heavily to do, he knows he will stand accused of emulating all the ratbag isolationist homeopath forums which attract the unhinged (even for Pakistani homeopaths!), like otherhealth and hpathy. Which would mean the National Council for Homeopathy of Pakistan would lose even more brownie points, and face even greater ignominy. In public.

Oh dear.

[flume]

Or maybe he's just killing time, trying to avoid dead air time on the forum, while he waits for input from the new president of NCH. I can imagine that the politics of the forum might be a low priority item for the new NCH president.
.

[Zep]

Or maybe he's just killing time, trying to avoid dead air time on the forum, while he waits for input from the new president of NCH. I can imagine that the politics of the forum might be a low priority item for the new NCH president.
.Maybe. So why does he continue to post there himself? And still leave the forum up and running? (I can do PMs privately there to any other member, but not post in public...:confused:) Why not just put the "New Version Coming Soon!" sign up, turn the motor off, and leave it - we all understand what that means and will be patient.

Background: Just after I joined that forum in March, I read in some back-posts that the NCH actually did not officially ask for or endorse that forum in the first place. Nor the website, it would seem. It would appear that they were all the idea of "friends" of the ex-president of the NCH, who personally supported the project. So I suspect this "waiting for Godot" thing stems from that situation.

[Zep]

Update!

I have had a PM exchange on the NCH forum with Worldcall...let me just say it was VERY illuminating, and has clarified some issues. Seems there's been a whole lot of "disinformation" from a certain source we all know well being circulated in the NCH community. :rolleyes: And an unusual offer is being made as well!

Would be nice to tell you all, but as yet I have not asked for Worldcall's permission to post the contents of our PM's here, but I intend to (says he, not expecting a positive response ;)).

[Meffy]

Update appreciated. Following with interest. Keep cards and letters coming. Love, Mef

[steenkh]

Could you shed any light on why WorldCall only publishes a few lines of each mail sent to him? The selected lines do not seem to be selected because they are the best or the worst, they just seem to be a random selection of arguments. Why he does not publish the lot - or leave it out, is beyond me!

[anor277]

Just regarding NCH's "Night of the Long Knives" and the wholesale banning of skeptics, in future when Dr. Mas or Sheikh post some preposterous drivel, and claim that the skeptics are unable to answer it, at least they will be telling the truth this time.

[Zep]

Just regarding NCH's "Night of the Long Knives" and the wholesale banning of skeptics, in future when Dr. Mas or Sheikh post some preposterous drivel, and claim that the skeptics are unable to answer it, at least they will be telling the truth this time.To be scrupulously fair, it appears that the skeptics have not been specifically banned. It's just that no-one but Worldcall is currently permitted to post on their public forum (or possibly that the homeopaths are permitted but are not doing so!). If you have an account there, you should be able to do PMs - that works for me.

[Zep]

Could you shed any light on why WorldCall only publishes a few lines of each mail sent to him? The selected lines do not seem to be selected because they are the best or the worst, they just seem to be a random selection of arguments. Why he does not publish the lot - or leave it out, is beyond me!No idea, I'm afraid.

However let's just say that his source of information on us skeptics, which he seems to have to accede to, is "a former old and unreliable member of this forum". I'm getting an "M"... :cool:

[steenkh]

WorldCall has just released the details of the new régime: Those who do not believe in homoeopathy will be stricken from the forum, those who believe homoeopathy is quackery will be not be allowed. But apart from that, the open policy will be continued, and there will be no censorship on skeptics!!! ;)

[Zep]

Oh, this will be fun! :D Will there be a questionnaire? Or an interogation?

[Ducky]

Zep: It will probably be an anal probe just like the aliens give.

[Zep]

No. See, that's not fun. At least, not for me.

[Zep]

In the interests of full disclosure, here's the actual text as posted by Worldcall:Hello Members and Moderators

The new policy has been received from the new administration of council office. According to that policy, remove the name of homeopathic un-believer and opponent of homeopathic system. Those who consider "Homeopathy is quackry" are also not allowed. Homeopathic discussion with geunine ideas with open policy will be continued. In this regard no censorship will be applied on skeptics or homeopaths.

(He then invites email questions. Effective date is tomorrow.)I will be posting here my questions to him, and his responses if any.

[Zep]

I have just sent the NCH forum owner this email: Dear Worldcall,

We note that the new policy has been sent from the NCH board, to be made effective within days. Below is a copy of what you posted today, and I would like to ask some questions about it, if I may.


Hello Members and Moderators

The new policy has been received from the new administration of council office. According to that policy, remove the name of homeopathic un-believer and opponent of homeopathic system. Those who consider "Homeopathy is quackry" are also not allowed. Homeopathic discussion with geunine ideas with open policy will be continued. In this regard no censorship will be applied on skeptics or homeopaths.

1) How do you define a "homeopathic un-believer"? What do you mean by that description? Is it someone who politely questions homeopathic practices?

2) How do you define an "opponent of homeopathic system"? What do you mean by that description? Is it someone who politely questions homeopathic practices?

3) How will you determine successfully if any new or existing forum member considers homeopathy is quackery? Will you just ask them? And what answers do you expect they will give if they know they might be banned?

4) If all these policies above go into place, do you truly think any genuine skeptics will be permitted at all? And how does this policy make your forum different from any of the other homeopathy forums that have the appallingly unscientific reputations for banning anyone who asks the wrong questions? Or posters are banned for entirely personal reasons? Or just because the Admin or mods like to flex their muscles and play God?

5) Dr Rubi, the current Administrator, has stated clearly that she will publicly leave you forum if the skeptics are banned unnecessarily. So far, she has seen no reason that we should be banned. So, given the new policy, what is your view on her stance? And what do you think will happen?

I must inform you that I am making a public copy of this email on the JREF forum, where a number of members there are also existing members here, and are watching with interest. And I shall be posting any of your responses to these questions in full verbatim.

We look forward to your considered response.

regards
Zep
Let's see what happens...

[steenkh]

I sent the following:

Hello WorldCall,

You asked for opinions on the new policy, and here it is!

First of all, I do not really understand how the new policy can say "remove the name of homeopathic un-believer and opponent of homeopathic system" and at the same time say "Homeopathic discussion with geunine ideas with open policy will be continued. In this regard no censorship will be applied on skeptics or homeopaths."

I do not believe in the homoeopathic system, and as long as I have the scientific facts on my side, I will continue to do so. Accordingly, my user will be removed. OK.

But homoeopaths should not believe that they are still running an "open" policy with no censorship.

As I have said before, I have been posting at NCH because I wanted to help homoeopaths understand what is scientific thinking, and I could help in devising test methods that would be acceptable from a scientific point of view. In my year at NCH, I have found that the knowledge of science and the methods of among the homoeopaths of the forum has been appallingly low. I have also got the impression that many homoeopaths actually valued my contributions. Apparently, the new leadership of NCH does not value my contribution, and I accept that. I do not intend to spend my valuable spare time time on somebody who does not want it, and in the future, I will stop posting on the NCH forums. You are free to delete my user.

Steenkh

[Mojo]

I have just sent the NCH forum owner this email:...

How will you determine successfully if any new or existing forum member considers homeopathy is quackery?BZZZT!

You can spell "quackery" correctly! You are an un-believer!

Your name will be removed.

[Zep]

BZZZT!

You can spell "quackery" correctly! You are an un-believer!

Your name will be removed.Don't mention this. I mean, PLEASE don't mention this...OK? ;)

[Meffy]

Say it was a typo for "cookery." Like Campbell's homeopathic chicken soup -- a tub of brine that was once left near a chicken for an hour.

[Zep]

*sigh* Progress Report:

With the effective date of the re-opening of the NCH forum now 24 hours past (i.e. it's now 48 hours since Worldcall announced "open tomorrow"), STILL no access is possible, and no-one else is posting.

I think I can see why you don't rely on Indian and Pakistani railway timetables...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, will they be changing their forum name to Loose Dilution?

[Zep]

:D

Although if you read some of what passes for "Quality Control" by Pakistani homeopathic remedy manufacturers, it's not so much a joke... :rolleyes:

[anor277]

Bumped up this thread because of new developments. Non-bleevers and infidels are banned from the NCH forum. At least they had the courtesy to say so. Ah well, "I wouldn't care to belong to a club that would have me as a member".

Dear Members,

Under the directive of NCH office, those who are non-believer in homeopathy and those who consider homeopathy is quackery are permanently banned at NCH forum. The policy has no distinction with skeptics / homeopaths / Allopaths / common members / any other profession etc. The step was not taken on members reporting messages but on the directive of Council Office. The decision has no link with any other forum policy. This is an automatic generated message, if you feel that this is received by you by mistake then please contact at nchpakistan@hotmail.com

Worldcall

[Darat]

Yep got mine today - I find it quite funny since I only joined over there because some of them were apparently having trouble registering over here to try and help them out! (And as usual there weren't any problems they were just making it up for a bit of drama - so nothing has changed!)

[MRC_Hans]

Can't even enter the forum, now. I have sent mails and PMs to Wordcall and NCHPakistan and demanded that my name be removed from the moderator list, immidiately.

Well, just another brick in the wall. The only defense for homeopathy seems to be lies and censorship. Color me unsurprised.

Hans :nope:

[Darat]

Can't even enter the forum, now. I have sent mails and PMs to Wordcall and NCHPakistan and demanded that my name be removed from the moderator list, immidiately.

Well, just another brick in the wall. The only defense for homeopathy seems to be lies and censorship. Color me unsurprised.

Hans :nope:

Perhaps they'll let you back in as their token non-believer? ;)

[MRC_Hans]

That would be funny. Yesterday, I could not post, but my moderator rights were in function. I was severely tempted to delete all threads in the "science" forum.

Hans

[Zep]

Well, it would seem they have taken the ignore-and-run-away option. Just like MAS did here. :rolleyes:

And it seems they haven't even had the decency to respond to our reasonable questions. I got no replies...anyone else?

Since they have now shut up shop on us, I'll can let you know now something that transpired the other day: Worldcall offered me a bribe to let MAS back on the JREF forum. In short, the deal was if I used my "influence" to have MAS's banning removed here on JREF, they would look kindly on not banning skeptics on their forum. Clearly the offer was initiated by MAS, who now apparently has some influence in the new NCH executive.

My response to Worldcall was twofold: (1) I had no influence on JREF management anyway, and (2) take the offer to Darat! I also asked him to consider how wise such an offer might be.

Never mind honesty, it seems that's how you "do business" in Pakistani homeopath land...

:dl:

[The_Fire]

'Ang on, wasn't this way of dealing with buisness what got the former president of their little club in deep doo-doo?

:dl:

[Darat]

Well, it would seem they have taken the ignore-and-run-away option. Just like MAS did here. :rolleyes:

And it seems they haven't even had the decency to respond to our reasonable questions. I got no replies...anyone else?

Since they have now shut up shop on us, I'll can let you know now something that transpired the other day: Worldcall offered me a bribe to let MAS back on the JREF forum. In short, the deal was if I used my "influence" to have MAS's banning removed here on JREF, they would look kindly on not banning skeptics on their forum. Clearly the offer was initiated by MAS, who now apparently has some influence in the new NCH executive.

...snip...

You mean this was a result of me banning Dr. MAS ?

HAHAHA! MY POWER GROWS!!!!!!!!

Oops sorry slipped into my evil overlord routine ....

[MRC_Hans]

*quote*
Never mind honesty, it seems that's how you "do business" in Pakistani homeopath land...

Actually, at the risk of sounding a Western chauvinist, I suspect this is a fairly common way of doing business in Pakistan, as a whole. Especially where politics are involved.

Well, I feel much cleaner now I'm definitely out of that.

Hans

[steenkh]

I just checked which excuses they are writing about the situation:

Worldcall has moaned that he has "unhappily" suspended "a few" members, but rest assured, the "open" policy will continue and there will be no censoring!

Rubi is also appearing soon. I wonder what she will do after the new management has demolished her entire concept.

[Mojo]

Bumped up this thread because of new developments. Non-bleevers and infidels are banned from the NCH forum. At least they had the courtesy to say so. Ah well, "I wouldn't care to belong to a club that would have me as a member". Dear Members,

Under the directive of NCH office, those who are non-believer in homeopathy and those who consider homeopathy is quackery are permanently banned at NCH forum. The policy has no distinction with skeptics / homeopaths / Allopaths / common members / any other profession etc. The step was not taken on members reporting messages but on the directive of Council Office. The decision has no link with any other forum policy. This is an automatic generated message, if you feel that this is received by you by mistake then please contact at nchpakistan@hotmail.com

WorldcallI see that there is no indication on the forum that the skeptics' accounts are suspended, so for anyone who doesn't know the history and who hasn't seen Worldcall's thread about this it will look as if they've simply stopped posting. At least Hans's name seems to have been removed from the list of moderators.

[Mojo]

And I like Abbas's comment: I was visiting the forum regularly but was not appearing due to some un-necessary reasoning...:rolleyes:

[steenkh]

I see that there is no indication on the forum that the skeptics' accounts are suspended, so for anyone who doesn't know the history and who hasn't seen Worldcall's thread about this it will look as if they've simply stopped posting. At least Hans's name seems to have been removed from the list of moderators.
My account has been suspended, and apparently my IP-address has been blocked too, because I could only read the forum after I switched IP-address.

Anyway, I came there to help them. If they do not want it, that is their choice. But it is a strange way they communicate this choice to me, instead of just writing a note that they would like me to stop.

I shed no tears over the situation. I knew from the beginning that they would probably not take advice, and my experience there has shown that even a person like me with no formal education at all, seems to know more about science than some of their doctors with several pages of academic titles.

[Mojo]

I shed no tears over the situation. I knew from the beginning that they would probably not take advice, and my experience there has shown that even a person like me with no formal education at all, seems to know more about science than some of their doctors with several pages of academic titles.I'm not sure that the letters after their names relate to much in the way of actual education. I suspect they just buy them by the yard.

[Beady]

I'm not sure that the letters after their names relate to much in the way of actual education. I suspect they just buy them by the yard.

I've been getting a lot of spam lately, offering college degrees for "life experience." I'm tempted, I really am, just so I can have a string of letters after my name, too.

[Zep]

Just tried a little technical workaround to log in there, and received this message trying to log in:

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Aug 30 2006, 11:46 AM.

That is, three months. Which is not, technically, a banning. Guess they don't want competition, then! So any bets on when Joe Delivera will climb back out of his burrow?

And yes, Hans, I'm aware that bribery certainly is "standard" business practice in the subcontinent. ;) Which is why I did not rear back in righteous anger at the suggestion when it was put to me at the time. Although you would think that with all the adherence to Koranic faith, they could at least try to be honest to all men, as their good book advocates... ;)

[steenkh]

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Aug 30 2006, 11:46 AM.

That is, three months. Which is not, technically, a banning.
Then I must be more unpopular than you, because I am suspended until Jun 1 2007!

[Zep]

Then I must be more unpopular than you, because I am suspended until Jun 1 2007!
But didn't you ask him to cross you off the list anyway? :confused: Post #53

[Darat]

Nice to see their atitude remains the same regarding their "customers" as they call them:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=435&st=0&#entry6247

Dr Safdar Hussain,these observations are not new some people are very senstive.Even a single dose start proving.They are bad customers.

[steenkh]

But didn't you ask him to cross you off the list anyway? :confused: Post #53
More or less true! I told them that they were free to delete my user. That has not happened, but instead they have blocked me for a year, while they have only blocked you for 3 months! :)

[Meffy]

Worldcall has moaned that he has "unhappily" suspended "a few" members
Well, I hope you feel sufficiently guilty for having dared to cause poor Worldcall unhappiness. For shame! To repent you should have to drink an American (which is to say, nearly homeopathic) beer.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

The error returned was:

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Aug 30 2006, 11:53 AM.

Wow I got suspended for 7 mins longer than Zep!

LLH

[Zep]

More or less true! I told them that they were free to delete my user. That has not happened, but instead they have blocked me for a year, while they have only blocked you for 3 months! :)How rude of them! :)

[Zep]

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

The error returned was:

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Aug 30 2006, 11:53 AM.

Wow I got suspended for 7 mins longer than Zep!

LLHLet THAT be a lesson to you! :D

[Zep]

[double post]

[Flange Desire]

Went over tonight to say hi to them all, and got a few posts in.
Suppose I will be banned by tommorow.

[steenkh]

Well, you asked for it by calling their favourite belief "quackery" :)

[Mojo]

BTW, Googling nch pakistan now brings up this thread as the first hit with the NCH site second. :D

[Zep]

BTW, Googling nch pakistan now brings up this thread as the first hit with the NCH site second. :DLove it! :D :D

Let's keep mentioning nchpakistan, then, shall we?

[Blue Bubble]

Love it! :D :D

Let's keep mentioning nchpakistan, then, shall we?

What's that you said, Zep ? nchpakistan or was it nch pakistan ?
Do you think nchpakistan (without the space) and nch pakistan (with the space) are one and the same thing ?

Oh by the way, did I forget to mention nchpakistan (or was it nch pakistan) ?

P.s. I've been banned outright, but I did manage to register, ahem, a "new identity".

[Zep]

What's that you said, Zep ? nchpakistan or was it nch pakistan ?
Do you think nchpakistan (without the space) and nch pakistan (with the space) are one and the same thing ?

Oh by the way, did I forget to mention nchpakistan (or was it nch pakistan) ?

P.s. I've been banned outright, but I did manage to register, ahem, a "new identity".Yes, good point!

I think you can mention nchpakistan/nch pakistan as either nchpakistan (without the space) OR as nch pakistan (with the space). Either way, it does indeed refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan.

However...

You MUST refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nchpkistan when it is used in the nchpkistan/nch pakistan website, namely nchpakistan.com.

Of course, if you were dyslexic, you could end up spelling nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nhcpakistan, cnhpakistan, or even hncbangaldesh.

[rjh01]

Idea for you. Somebody goes over there and invites them over here. We even give them an area to debate their stuff.
There will of course be another area to discuss the effectiveness of their medicines.
If you cannot join them let them join us.

[Darat]

BTW, Googling nch pakistan now brings up this thread as the first hit with the NCH site second. :D

Love it! :D :D

Let's keep mentioning nchpakistan, then, shall we?

What's that you said, Zep ? nchpakistan or was it nch pakistan ?
Do you think nchpakistan (without the space) and nch pakistan (with the space) are one and the same thing ?

Oh by the way, did I forget to mention nchpakistan (or was it nch pakistan) ?

P.s. I've been banned outright, but I did manage to register, ahem, a "new identity".

Yes, good point!

I think you can mention nchpakistan/nch pakistan as either nchpakistan (without the space) OR as nch pakistan (with the space). Either way, it does indeed refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan.

However...

You MUST refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nchpkistan when it is used in the nchpkistan/nch pakistan website, namely nchpakistan.com.

Of course, if you were dyslexic, you could end up spelling nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nhcpakistan, cnhpakistan, or even hncbangaldesh.

You lot are very funny.

[Zep]

Idea for you. Somebody goes over there and invites them over here. We even give them an area to debate their stuff.
There will of course be another area to discuss the effectiveness of their medicines.
If you cannot join them let them join us.An excellent idea...that was repeatedly made to them for the last few months that I know of (and further back than that if my memory of what I read of the old threads there). Only a few ever did take up the invitation, the latest (last?) being Dr. A Sheikh.

They are just smart enough to realise they are in a different league here. There, they can shut the door on the world, and play pretend in their own little tree-house, it would seem.

[Zep]

Dear Darat,
BTW, Googling nch pakistan now brings up this thread as the first hit with the NCH site second. Love it!

Let's keep mentioning nchpakistan, then, shall we?What's that you said, Zep ? nchpakistan or was it nch pakistan ?
Do you think nchpakistan (without the space) and nch pakistan (with the space) are one and the same thing ?

Oh by the way, did I forget to mention nchpakistan (or was it nch pakistan) ?

P.s. I've been banned outright, but I did manage to register, ahem, a "new identity".Yes, good point!

I think you can mention nchpakistan/nch pakistan as either nchpakistan (without the space) OR as nch pakistan (with the space). Either way, it does indeed refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan.

However...

You MUST refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nchpkistan when it is used in the nchpkistan/nch pakistan website, namely nchpakistan.com.

Of course, if you were dyslexic, you could end up spelling nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nhcpakistan, cnhpakistan, or even hncbangaldesh.

You lot are very funny.You're too kind...and very helpful! :D

[Nucular]

Never having been a member of the NCH board (that I recall), I feel a bit left out of all the bannings :(

However, I have been losing sleep over my poor imposter over there. Is he banned? What of the other imposters? Poor things.

[Meffy]

Let's see if I've got this straight. NCH Pakistan operates a forum of their own, a forum which (at latest report) indulges in censorship and suppression of free exchange of information and knowledge. Members of NCH Pakistan who do not approve of NCH Pakistan's authoritarian approach are invited to take part in open discussions here at the JREF Forums. Unlike NCH Pakistan, the JREF Forums encourage free, honest examination of issues without extreme NCH Pakistan-type measures such as banning anyone who dares to bring up evidence contradicting the prevailing "wisdom" of the forums.

Were I a homeopath who was given a choice between NCH Pakistan and JREF Forums, I'd certainly go with JREF over NCH Pakistan. Better honestly to face those adverse to my position than to cower in a protected place such as NCH Pakistan, where questioning of accepted authority and genuine, open interplay of ideas are forbidden.

NCH Pakistan comes out looking mighty shabby by comparison. How weak one becomes when coddled, protected, not allowed even to know that there are opposing viewpoints and contrary evidence -- as members of NCH Pakistan are apparently to be coddled. Had the NCH Pakistan folks any understanding, they'd welcome the opportunity to defend their views... or (far better IMO) to learn, grow, and accept the falsity of those views.

Seems to me that the only thing NCH Pakistan engages in that's remotely like skepticism might be umboskepsis. And maybe they haven't time for that. Keeping NCH Pakistan free of dissenting voices must be hard work.

[Zep]

They will end up banning themselves shortly! :)



Seriously! They are banning anonymous proxies now!

[Darat]

Let's see if I've got this straight. NCH Pakistan operates a forum of their own, a forum which (at latest report) indulges in censorship and suppression of free exchange of information and knowledge. Members of NCH Pakistan who do not approve of NCH Pakistan's authoritarian approach are invited to take part in open discussions here at the JREF Forums. Unlike NCH Pakistan, the JREF Forums encourage free, honest examination of issues without extreme NCH Pakistan-type measures such as banning anyone who dares to bring up evidence contradicting the prevailing "wisdom" of the forums.

Were I a homeopath who was given a choice between NCH Pakistan and JREF Forums, I'd certainly go with JREF over NCH Pakistan. Better honestly to face those adverse to my position than to cower in a protected place such as NCH Pakistan, where questioning of accepted authority and genuine, open interplay of ideas are forbidden.

NCH Pakistan comes out looking mighty shabby by comparison. How weak one becomes when coddled, protected, not allowed even to know that there are opposing viewpoints and contrary evidence -- as members of NCH Pakistan are apparently to be coddled. Had the NCH Pakistan folks any understanding, they'd welcome the opportunity to defend their views... or (far better IMO) to learn, grow, and accept the falsity of those views.

Seems to me that the only thing NCH Pakistan engages in that's remotely like skepticism might be umboskepsis. And maybe they haven't time for that. Keeping NCH Pakistan free of dissenting voices must be hard work.

I think you sum up very well what the decision makers at NCH Pakistan forum have done with the NCH Pakistan forum.

Personally I think NCH Pakistan's approach will result in a poorer forum for NCH Pakistan and in fact will weaken any credibility NCH Pakistan would hope to achieve with their NCH Pakistan forum.

It's quite a shame for the people behind NCH Pakistan that they don't understand this, still can't cry over spilt water, unless you're a NCH Pakistan Homeopath of course and then you're crying over your hundreds of pounds worth of NCH Pakistan homeopathic treatments!

Of course we will not follow what the NCH Pakistan forum has done, as always believers in homeopathy are very welcome at this forum, and if any members of the NCH Pakistan homeopathy forum wishes to join here they are of course very welcome to do so. In fact feel free to post my offer at the NCH Pakistan forum.

[steenkh]

I think you sum up very well what the decision makers at NCH Pakistan forum have done with the NCH Pakistan forum.

It should of course be noted that the previous administrator actually supported an open policy with no or little censorship. The new management has tossed that into the garbage bin.

Personally I think NCH Pakistan's approach will result in a poorer forum for NCH Pakistan and in fact will weaken any credibility NCH Pakistan would hope to achieve with their NCH Pakistan forum.

I think they are worrying more about credibility in the homoeopathic world than in the scientific world.

Of course we will not follow what the NCH Pakistan forum has done, as always believers in homeopathy are very welcome at this forum, and if any members of the NCH Pakistan homeopathy forum wishes to join here they are of course very welcome to do so. In fact feel free to post my offer at the NCH Pakistan forum.
The snag being of course, that the visitors from the NCH pakistan forum have proven quite unable to a) engage in serious discussions, and b) understand and abide to simple rules of conduct. Because of these failings they believe that they are being censored here.

[Meffy]

It should of course be noted that the previous administrator actually supported an open policy with no or little censorship. The new management has tossed that into the garbage bin.
Very much noted and acknowledged. My comments concern recent developments exclusively.

[edit] Oh, yes. *hem* "NCH Pakistan." There. =^_^=

[Ririon]

Yes, good point!

I think you can mention nchpakistan/nch pakistan as either nchpakistan (without the space) OR as nch pakistan (with the space). Either way, it does indeed refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan.

However...

You MUST refer to nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nchpkistan when it is used in the nchpkistan/nch pakistan website, namely nchpakistan.com.

Of course, if you were dyslexic, you could end up spelling nchpakistan/nch pakistan as nhcpakistan, cnhpakistan, or even hncbangaldesh.
By nch, or NCH, I assume you are referring to the National Council for Homoeopathy, or the National Council for Homeopathy. Pakistan seems to be implied. :)

[Eos of the Eons]

I think you sum up very well what the decision makers at NCH Pakistan forum have done with the NCH Pakistan forum.

Personally I think NCH Pakistan's approach will result in a poorer forum for NCH Pakistan and in fact will weaken any credibility NCH Pakistan would hope to achieve with their NCH Pakistan forum.

It's quite a shame for the people behind NCH Pakistan that they don't understand this, still can't cry over spilt water, unless you're a NCH Pakistan Homeopath of course and then you're crying over your hundreds of pounds worth of NCH Pakistan homeopathic treatments!

Of course we will not follow what the NCH Pakistan forum has done, as always believers in homeopathy are very welcome at this forum, and if any members of the NCH Pakistan homeopathy forum wishes to join here they are of course very welcome to do so. In fact feel free to post my offer at the NCH Pakistan forum.

What does NCH in NCH Pakistan stand for again?

By nch, or NCH, I assume you are referring to the National Council for Homoeopathy, or the National Council for Homeopathy

Er, which is it, I mean...

[Meffy]

What does NCH in NCH Pakistan stand for again?
It's a tricky one because there are two spellings. Those wishing to indulge in classicism may use homoeopathy, while the lazybones among us (indeed, among me) will likely type homeopathy instead. It would be wrong to list just homoeopathy or just homeopathy. As a good inclusivist, I prefer to mention both homoeopathy and its good friend homeopathy together. They're more contented when together.

So whether you're looking for the National Homoeopathy Council Pakistan or the National Homeopathy Council Pakistan, you'll end up in the same place. Here at JREF, after asking innocent *coughcough* questions at the National Homeopathy Council Pakistan forums, aka the National Homoeopathy Council Pakistan forums gets you banned.

o/~ Vo do dee oh doh... o/~

[edit] How embarrassing! I got the word order wrong. Here, I'll re-state it correctly.

So whether you're looking for the National Council for Homoeopathy Pakistan or the National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan, you'll end up in the same place. Here at JREF, after asking innocent *coughcough* questions at the National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan forums, aka the National Council for Homoeopathy Pakistan forums gets you banned.

That's better. I'd not want to imply that the National Council for Homoeopathy Pakistan or the National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan were (or is) the same thing as the National Homoeopathy Council Pakistan or the National Homeopathy Council Pakistan. They might be the same but I don't know -- and am not empowered to declare it so despite not knowing.

[Eos of the Eons]

That's better. I'd not want to imply that the National Council for Homoeopathy Pakistan or the National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan were (or is) the same thing as the National Homoeopathy Council Pakistan or the National Homeopathy Council Pakistan. They might be the same but I don't know -- and am not empowered to declare it so despite not knowing.

Ah yes. An important distinction to make, thank you. I'm sure National Council for Homoeopathy Pakistan / NCH and National Council for Homeopathy Pakistan / NCH, and the National Homoeopathy Council Pakistan - NCH and/or the National Homeopathy Council Pakistan - NCH, or is it NCHP and NCHP, will all appreciate it.

[Zep]

Anagrams of NCHPAKISTAN:KATCHINAS CANAKINS CANTINAS CAPTAINS CHAPATIS KACHINAS KATCHINA KATCINAS TANKSHIP ACANTHI ANTICKS APHASIC CANAKIN CANTINA CAPSTAN CAPTAIN CAPTANS CATKINS CATNAPS CATNIPS CHAPATI HATPINS INCANTS KACHINA KATCINA NAPKINS PASTINA PATINAS PINATAS SATANIC SHAITAN SPATHIC SPINACH STANNIC TAIPANS TANNISH ACTINS ANTICK ANTICS ASHCAN ASKANT CANNAS CANTHI CAPIAS CAPITA CAPTAN CASITA CATKIN CATNAP CATNIP CHAINS CHANTS CHINAS CHINKS CHINTS HAPTIC HATPIN INCANT INSPAN KITSCH NACHAS NAPKIN NASTIC NINTHS PACHAS PAINCH PAINTS PAISAN PANICS PATINA PATINS PHASIC PHATIC PINATA PINNAS PINTAS PTISAN SANCTA SCHTIK SHANTI SHTICK SNATCH SNITCH STANCH TAIPAN TAKINS TANKAS TANNIC THACKS THANKS THICKS THINKS ACTIN AITCH ANKHS ANNAS ANTAS ANTIC ANTIS APHIS APIAN APISH ASPIC ATAPS CAINS CANNA CANST CANTS CAPHS CHAIN CHANT CHAPS CHAPT CHATS CHIAS CHINA CHINK CHINS CHIPS CHITS HACKS HAIKA HAIKS HANKS HANSA HANTS HICKS HINTS IKATS INAPT KAINS KANAS KAPAS KAPHS KASHA KATAS KHANS KHATS KINAS KITHS KNAPS KNISH KNITS NAANS NANAS NATCH NICKS NINTH NIPAS PACAS PACHA PACKS PACTS PAIKS PAINS PAINT PAISA PANIC PANTS PASHA PASTA PATCH PATHS PATIN PIANS PICAS PICKS PIKAS PINAS PINCH PINKS PINNA PINTA PINTS PITAS PITCH PITHS SAINT SAITH SATIN SCANT SHACK SHANK SHTIK SKINT SNACK SNATH SNICK SPAHI SPAIT SPANK SPICA SPICK STACK STAIN STANK STAPH STICH STICK STINK TACHS TACKS TAINS TAKIN TANKA TANKS TAPAS TAPIS THACK THANK THICK THINK THINS TICKS AAHS ACTA ACTS AINS AITS AKIN ANAS ANIS ANKH ANNA ANSA ANTA ANTI ANTS ASCI ATAP CAIN CANS CANT CAPH CAPS CASA CASH CASK CAST CATS CHAP CHAT CHIA CHIN CHIP CHIS CHIT CIST HACK HAIK HANK HANT HAPS HASP HAST HATS HICK HINS HINT HIPS HISN HIST HITS ICHS IKAT INCH INKS INNS ITCH KAAS KAIN KANA KAPA KAPH KATA KATS KHAN KHAT KHIS KINA KINS KIPS KIST KITH KITS KNAP KNIT NAAN NANA NANS NAPS NICK NIPA NIPS NITS PACA PACK PACS PACT PAIK PAIN PANS PANT PASH PAST PATH PATS PHAT PHIS PIAN PIAS PICA PICK PICS PIKA PINA PINK PINS PINT PISH PITA PITH PITS SACK SAIN SAKI SANK SATI SCAN SCAT **** SHIN SHIP **** SICK SINH SINK SITH SKAT SKIN SKIP SKIT SNAP SNIP SNIT SPAN SPAT SPIC SPIK SPIN SPIT TACH TACK TAIN TAKA TANK TANS TAPA TAPS TASK THAN THIN THIS TICK TICS TINS TIPS AAH AAS ACT AHA AIN AIS AIT ANA ANI ANT APT ASH ASK ASP CAN CAP CAT CHI CIS HAP HAS HAT HIC HIN HIP HIS HIT ICH ICK INK INN INS ITS KAS KAT KHI KIN KIP KIT NAH NAN NAP NIP NIT NTH PAC PAH PAN PAS PAT PHI PHT PIA PIC PIN PIS PIT PSI SAC SAP SAT SHA SIC SIN SIP SIT SKA SKI SPA TAN TAP TAS TIC TIN TIP TIS TSK AA AH AI AN AS AT HA HI IN IS IT KA NA PA PH PI SH SI TA TI I would question a few of these, but anyway...

[Meffy]

SNATH
One of my favorite words. The snath is an example of old-time ergonomic agricultural technology, a work of craft bordering on art. Snath is the name for the wooden handle assembly, often gracefully curved, attached to a scythe (which is the blade).

I like these anagrams, which use all the letters in NCH Pakistan:

Nathan picks -- Who is Nathan? Does he pick homeopathic or real treatments?
NAACP thinks -- I'm glad, but thinks what? Same thing as Nathan?
catnap knish -- A snack, a little lie-down, and the afternoon's golden.
spinach tank -- Popeye does not turn into a human battle tank after eating homeopathic spinach.
chant spa kin -- Homeopathic chanting spas for the whole family. The next big thing.
pink cash ant -- Admits of any number of frightening interpretations, none savory.
napkin chats -- Related to church youth group "chalk talks" but even lamer.
panic? thanks -- Now NCH Pakistan have an excuse to purge the membership records.
Pa Chin stank -- ... despite taking lots of healthy garlic supplements. Go figure!
ninth cask, Pa! -- Garlic and wine. Not that bad a start, really.

[Mouthfire]

I think you sum up very well what the decision makers at NCH Pakistan forum have done with the NCH Pakistan forum.

Personally I think NCH Pakistan's approach will result in a poorer forum for NCH Pakistan and in fact will weaken any credibility NCH Pakistan would hope to achieve with their NCH Pakistan forum.

It's quite a shame for the people behind NCH Pakistan that they don't understand this, still can't cry over spilt water, unless you're a NCH Pakistan Homeopath of course and then you're crying over your hundreds of pounds worth of NCH Pakistan homeopathic treatments!

Of course we will not follow what the NCH Pakistan forum has done, as always believers in homeopathy are very welcome at this forum, and if any members of the NCH Pakistan homeopathy forum wishes to join here they are of course very welcome to do so. In fact feel free to post my offer at the NCH Pakistan forum.

Eh? What is this about NCH Pakistan?

[rjh01]

Forum (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php)
Website (http://www.nchpakistan.com/)

Feel free to look there, but suggest before you post anything on the forum you talk to Zep (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=710)first.

[MRC_Hans]

Forum (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php)
Website (http://www.nchpakistan.com/)

Feel free to look there, but suggest before you post anything on the forum you talk to Zep (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=710)first.Nothing is reachable there now, at least for non-members. You can't even attempt to register.

Seems they have caved in under their own paranoia. Congratulations, MAS! You have succeded where we failed and destroyed the site.

Hans

[Zep]

Indeed, Hans! Even worse - they have IP-banned a number of anonymiser and redirection sites, which would tend to rule out a lot of their own potential users now. Who knows! You only have to get one incomer they don't like using the same IP address as their own forum hosting site, and they will cut their own throat... :D ;)

Although I must say I had no intention of destroying that site by going there - that would have been highly counter-productive for everybody concerned. I would much rather it had stayed open and we could have kept on chatting with them. Because on the whole, apart from the one or two obvious exceptions, they were quite personable people and open to fair discussion most of the time.

However I suspect this will rebound badly sooner or later. MAS may not get it all his own way for long after all...

[003998]

Anagrams of NCHPAKISTAN
I like this one:
SHIP **** SICK

Oh, and.... NCH Pakistan!

[rjh01]

Nothing is reachable there now, at least for non-members. You can't even attempt to register.

Seems they have caved in under their own paranoia. Congratulations, MAS! You have succeeded where we failed and destroyed the site.

Hans
Not sure what is going on. I just logged out of there and tried to register again and only stopped to prevent myself from getting a sock poppet. I say congratulations to MAS is premature.

[rjh01]

Last member to join was Natrum Mur (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=454) who joined about two days ago.

[Darat]

They are not blocking the IP address I should show up as using, I can see all the forum still, including where someone has posted this interview with randi - http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathyrandi.shtml (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=880&st=).

[Zep]

Last member to join was Natrum Mur (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=454) who joined about two days ago.That was me. But I have been blocked again. I was hoping to explain that it was indeed Zep from JREF, and to convey the extent of the black-out by the forum management, but I was not able to get a post away before being shut out. I suspect it was an automated thing - it took only a few seconds after registering.

[rjh01]

They are not blocking the IP address I should show up as using, I can see all the forum still, including where someone has posted this interview with randi - http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathyrandi.shtml (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=880&st=).

That post you quoted is a possible breech of copyright. You know what to do!

[Mojo]

I don't think the MAS collective, who seem to have some sort of control over the NCH board, give a damn about copyright.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Because on the whole, apart from the one or two obvious exceptions, they were quite personable people and open to fair discussion most of the time.
I was actually rather shocked by how nice MOST of them were. Too bad they have decided to seal themselves away from outside criticism. Who knows what even wackier stuff they will believe soon?

LLH

[rjh01]

Someone joined today. Was that you Zep? So someone can join.

The NCH board may not care about copyright, but does the copyright owners care and can they do anything?

[MRC_Hans]

That was me. But I have been blocked again. I was hoping to explain that it was indeed Zep from JREF, and to convey the extent of the black-out by the forum management, but I was not able to get a post away before being shut out. I suspect it was an automated thing - it took only a few seconds after registering.According to my observations, the general blocking has been going on and off (remember the caveats about inferring causation that we keep lecturing others about ;)?). I think they are, somewhat incompetently, tampering with some scheme. Or, several adminstrators with different agendas are at work, heheh.

Anywayz, currently the thing seems open the new registrations. I suggest not disclosing any actions here, since there are some indications that some of them follow this debate.

I do notice, btw, that "Dr. MAS" (whatever exactly that is) seems to have quite low credibility, even in homeoapatic (<= that was a typo, but I think I'll leave it in :)) circles.

Hans

[Zep]

Nope, wasn't me. I have been able to browse for short periods, but (1) it's too difficult fighting through the smokescreen they throw up, and (2) there's nothing much happening there.

[Zep]

I'm quite open about my activity there, Hans. I had a login, which they banned. I tried creating another - Natrum Mur - but it appears to have been blocked as a matter of course. Then again, the forum there comes and goes like smoke, plus it's a dreadful ISP server they have it on, so it's all very hit-and-miss.

[steenkh]

I do not really find it so important to try to get back in at NCH. After all, it is just another out of countless woo-woo sites. For a time I believed that they wanted a dialogue, and I was willing to help, but it is their own decision. When they do not want a dialogue, I will just concentrate on my other forums.

[flume]

My highdesert account on NCH wasn't suspended before. But I posted that the new MRC Hans was not the same as MRC_Hans, and now my account is temporarily suspended. How did people figure out how long their accounts were suspended for?

[Zep]

It will give you the resumption date when your login fails. Small print, though.

Yes, Steen, unless they relent shortly, I'm forgetting them too. I'll let Rubi know too.

*sigh* Yet another promising opening for some interesting and intelligent homeopaths to play in the real world is closed by one or two idiots who are just too pride-filled to accept reality.

[Mojo]

Either some parts of the NCH forum have been made visible only to members, or they have disappeared altogether. The front page now only shows "General Homeopathy", "News, Views and Reviews" and "Chit Chat"; no sign of "Scientific Homeopathy" ;) or forum management/announcements, whatever it was called.

[Meffy]

no sign of "Scientific Homeopathy"
:-D Dooooo tell!

[edit] No sign at NCH Pakistan, nowhere else either.

[rjh01]

Either some parts of the NCH forum have been made visible only to members, or they have disappeared altogether. The front page now only shows "General Homoeopathy", "News, Views and Reviews" and "Chit Chat"; no sign of "Scientific Homoeopathy" ;) or forum management/announcements, whatever it was called.

I can see Scientific Homeopathy (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showforum=4) and forum management (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showforum=2)

I am a non-posting member. If only it was not so slow.

[flume]

All I can see is the page that tells me I am not welcome. I can't read the forum at all.
I tried logging on on a different computer (but one I had used in the past to get to NCHPakistan) and that computer gave me the time when I would be no longer suspended - Aug 8. So I was only suspended for two months.

[rjh01]

All I can see is the page that tells me I am not welcome. I can't read the forum at all.
I tried logging on on a different computer (but one I had used in the past to get to NCHPakistan) and that computer gave me the time when I would be no longer suspended - Aug 8. So I was only suspended for two months.

Have you deleted your cookies? Method - Properties of IE / General / Delete cookies. Then try again. If that does not work they have blocked your ISP or something. See the other posts.

[Mojo]

I can see Scientific Homeopathy (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showforum=4) and forum management (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showforum=2)

I am a non-posting member. If only it was not so slow.Looks like those are members only: the links just take me to a page telling me I do not have permission to see the page, and a login prompt.

[MRC_Hans]

My highdesert account on NCH wasn't suspended before. But I posted that the new MRC Hans was not the same as MRC_Hans, and now my account is temporarily suspended. How did people figure out how long their accounts were suspended for?Well, thanks for doing it. I had decided not to sacrifice my sock account on it.

It does show how deep they are in on this censorship thing. Slightest indication of skepticism, and you're out. :nope:

ETA: And notice that it has had exactly the effect I told them it would have. The traffic has ground to a halt.

Hans

[SezMe]

Go for the mil, Hans! GO! :)

[rjh01]

Only two people have posted two posts each today there.

The speed in loading a page would not help either. It is so slow in more than one way.

[Zep]

By means of technical jiggery-pokery shown to me by someone elsewhere, I can now read that whole forum. All the previous subfora are still there, they are just hidden from non-members.

Seems the Admin, Dr Rubi, has resigned now. The hard-liners say it was because she was ill, but it appears it was actually because she lived up to her promise of resigning if posters were banned for no reason. Good for her!

A number of other regulars are questioning the sudden and unannounced banning of all skeptics. Especially the regular skeptics like Hans and Steen and I. They don't sound happy with how it went down, although MAS is desperately pretending he had nothing to do with it.

But the biggest news (if you can call it big) is the pending election for a new NCH council. Which sounds silly - the current faction, of which MAS is a booster, ousted the incumbents at some sort of no-confidence meeting only a few weeks ago. They were responsible for this banning policy, at MAS's instigation.

This is less interesting than Days Of Our Lives... :s2:

[Mouthfire]

Oh, the drama....

[rjh01]

Yes. There are at least three current threads here about NCH. We will have to find something else to complain about when that forum collapses.

That does not include loose change.

[Zep]

OK, in the interests of posting evidence, here's what one poster had to say about the skeptic-banning situation on the NCH forum. Please note: The link provided to the actual post will not work unless you are logged on as a member there.Skeptic’s aim on NCH forum was not discussion. Their aim was to discourage newest member. They took advantage of "Open Policy". Skeptics were ever, never been a trouble for anyone here. The problem was they were running on dual policy. A very bad impression they created on skeptic forum when they decided to put ban on homeopaths. They not only suspended homeopath’s account but also put permanent ban without following the rule. The only rule they followed was that "they don't like the presence of homeopaths (of few regular members others are ok) in their general discussion". For this purpose they started reporting to Darat (the admin of the skeptic forum). Darat unknowingly started finding to apply rules to remove the names of those who were discussing with skeptics, those who were putting the barrier in face of skeptics and also of those who were defending homeopathy (others have not problem for them). Skeptics were tired up with their daily mails. At last they decided to remove their names. (remember homeopaths names were not removed because they breeched forum policy --- no -- not at all --- actually skeptics presumed that homeopaths have no answer to their queries hence their presence at board is meaningless. They were started saying at forum for what we are discussing with homeopaths their names should be removed)

A private message without "notification" was sent to a member and without waiting for reply they permanently put the ban. The plea was the account in use by multiple persons and for this purpose no evidence was given. Second initiative they took was, the member did not give response to that private message when the member said, he has no intimation to that message neither he read the message. Even the administrator Darat said, he has no clue whether the account is in use by multiple persons and whether the member has read the message also. Then why the account was closed just because they don't like the presence of that person. This also proves that Skeptics are never interested in evidence, their presence at this forum is only to discourage members, "demand of evidence" is just a simple joke. Many "evidences" were provided to them. Recently "reports - to check the efficacy of homeopathic medicine on animals" were displayed by worldcall and skeptic’s opinion on the reports are, these are not acceptable, in this regard not a single concrete objection is raised.

Skeptics were following dual policy. Skeptics were given open hand to bull***t homeopaths at skeptics forum and when a single remark was passed by homeopath, he /she was warned immediately. According to the mails that I received, in management forum skeptics were allowed to pass remarks against NCH and homeopaths forum but when another homeopath given reply to that mail, he was suspended immediately.

The behavior was reported to NCH forum members and web team. Here a question arise what is the link of NCH discussion forum with skeptic forum? The answer is very very simple. Homeopaths of the NCH forum regularly reporting to NCH team (me too received few mails) that skeptics are not just “care for evidence” rather they are enemies of homeopathy and their presence at board is not good for healthy discussion, the same the exhibited.

Although I am big supporter of Lady Dr. Rubi. She is the founder of this board. I also came here on her invitation. Her main field is networking but being a homeopath also she really work hard for this board and was successful in bringing this board at top among the other homeopathic board. She is also unhappy with the present skeptic’s behavior they showed and put her in trouble because she has no answer to that question raised by NCH members. She is not a stupid or non-sense who does not know what is IP address and how it can be traced. She has done MCS in network protocol and that is why assisting to worldcall. The mail was sent to skeptic forum administrator and he did not reply because he has no justification. On what ground he can talk to a qualified network administrator.

I also support the decision of worldcall to put ban unless skeptics remove the restriction at their board. If worldcall did not consult to rubi then it was also a right decision. When everything is obvious then consultation for what? That was a 1/99 ratio decision. Lady Dr. Rubi / NCH Forum Members % biggrin.gif

No body has to worry about NCH forum. We will put extra effort to build homeopathic community. Inshaa*allah.
http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=870&view=findpost&p=11494

I'm not going to respond over there to this childish nonsense. It would do no good in the face of such mindless prejudice and lies.

[Mojo]

OK, in the interests of posting evidence, here's what one poster had to say about the skeptic-banning situation on the NCH forum. Please note: The link provided to the actual post will not work unless you are logged on as a member there. For those of us who haven't registered over there, who was it?

[Zep]

Cyber Homeopath.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I get so confused over at NCH Pakistan. I'm sure the language barrier does not help.

Is the poster Lady Dr. Ruby the same as their sys admin Rubi? And is this the same person who answers emails sent to nchpakistan@yahoo.com
And who is nchpakistan@hotmail.com?

LLH

[flume]

I can see why they have issues with the skeptics' forum on NCHPakistan. However polite the skeptic posters were, they were still challenging the central reason for the forum to exist. And I can see that the JREF forum can't tolerate the multiple poster Dr. MAS approach. I don't know if Cyber Homeopath was sincere or not, but I hope he noticed how reluctant the other homeopaths there were to answer questions. And I hope he noticed how many times Dr. MAS said he/they were just posting occasionally to stir up the skeptics. A separate forum for the skeptic/Pakistan homeopath discussion might be entertaining for a while depending on who participated.

[Meffy]

Golly. I thought Baghdad Bob had been captured, but it seems he's writing long posts to NCH Pakistan forums.

[steenkh]

Is the poster Lady Dr. Ruby the same as their sys admin Rubi? And is this the same person who answers emails sent to nchpakistan@yahoo.com
And who is nchpakistan@hotmail.com?

Yes, the original administrator is called NCHPakistan, aka Rubi, aka Lady Dr. Ruby. I believe she has the Yahoo account, whereas the new (temporary) administrator Worldcall is using the hotmail account.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Yes, the original administrator is called NCHPakistan, aka Rubi, aka Lady Dr. Ruby. I believe she has the Yahoo account, whereas the new (temporary) administrator Worldcall is using the hotmail account.

I've exchanged a few emails with Rubi since she sent the message to all the skeptics that were banned. While she seems like a very nice person, I'm a little confused by her words.

She claims that I was not banned because I am a skeptic or because I expressed a dissenting view point. She claims I was banned because I'm a member of the JREF forum and that I did nothing when Darat banned Dr. MAS. Also she seemed to imply that I should get Dr. MAS reinstated at the JREF forum if I would like to see NCH Pakistan return to normal.

She seems to repeat this no matter how many times I explain that I have no control over Darat or the JREF forum (even though I agree with the JREF's decision).

Maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I just don't understand...

LLH

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I've exchanged a few emails with Rubi since she sent the message to all the skeptics that were banned. While she seems like a very nice person, I'm a little confused by her words.

She claims that I was not banned because I am a skeptic or because I expressed a dissenting view point. She claims I was banned because I'm a member of the JREF forum and that I did nothing when Darat banned Dr. MAS. Also she seemed to imply that I should get Dr. MAS reinstated at the JREF forum if I would like to see NCH Pakistan return to normal.

She seems to repeat this no matter how many times I explain that I have no control over Darat or the JREF forum (even though I agree with the JREF's decision).

Maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I just don't understand...

LLH

Which is at least consistent with the utter lack of comprehension that MASheikh demonstrated when (1) forum rules were explained, (2) copyright law was explained, (3) Avogadro's # was explained, etc, and so on, and so forth.

[Zep]

And so it goes...

PROGRESS REPORT, Stardate 23-Jun-2006

The ISP providing the NCH forum, www.ipbfree.com, has been off the air for a number of days while it apparently migrates to newer, better servers (Ed knows, it needed them!). And now it's back.

And lo and behold, the NCH Pakistan forum has gone, in its entirety. Every single post and comment, all the users, EVERYTHING. Gone.

The NCH website now points to a new forum, that has only one registered user (Kinny), and a grand total of three (count 'em, 3) posts. It is also not open for business...yet. It's also on a new server with a new URL, so click here to view: http://forum4you.biz/forums/nch.html

So it would appear they were prepared to abandon including their own everyone before they admitted skeptics back. :D

[steenkh]

I do not actually want to post in a forum where I am not wanted. But I will register in order to prevent the abuse of skeptics' user names that we saw on the other forum.

[Darat]

And so it goes...

PROGRESS REPORT, Stardate 23-Jun-2006

The ISP providing the NCH forum, www.ipbfree.com, has been off the air for a number of days while it apparently migrates to newer, better servers (Ed knows, it needed them!). And now it's back.

And lo and behold, the NCH Pakistan forum has gone, in its entirety. Every single post and comment, all the users, EVERYTHING. Gone.

The NCH website now points to a new forum, that has only one registered user (Kinny), and a grand total of three (count 'em, 3) posts. It is also not open for business...yet. It's also on a new server with a new URL, so click here to view: http://forum4you.biz/forums/nch.html

So it would appear they were prepared to abandon including their own everyone before they admitted skeptics back. :D

But registration is re-opened so I've registered as Darat and made my first post in the chatter section.

[rjh01]

So far only 9 people, including me, have registered. Only two have posted anything. Darat you have posted 25% of all posts there.

[rjh01]

The old forum is back NCH (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/) There have been no new posts there since 19 June.

The new one has only 12 members 5 of whom have made posts. Make that 6. I just put my first post there.

[Zep]

Just a note: The new forum does not seem to work very well with Firefox, but OK with IE. I haven't bothered to look into why - possibly Java or cookies or something... Meh.

[Mojo]

The link from the main NCH website is going to the old forum again, and the "Scientific Homeopathy" has reappeared.

[Zep]

Update: (And this is typical NCH ;))

The forum link on the main webpage now goes to the NEW forum website. However that forum has no more posts than it did a week ago.

Meanwhile, the old forum, NOT linked by the webpage, is becoming active again...although half-a-dozen posts per day is hardly "active" by our standards.

Oh, and one of them is now lying through his teeth about me, or has been listening to MAS uncrititically (i.e. the same thing).

[Mojo]

Update: (And this is typical NCH ;))

The forum link on the main webpage now goes to the NEW forum website.Are you sure? It's currently trying to redirect to www.nch.ipbfree.com and failing. Earlier today it was certainly going to the old forum.

[Zep]

You're right. It WAS going to the new one today, but now it's failing to find the old one. A direct URL to the old one also fails.

Can't help but think that the site owner and webmaster, who is reported to be a Pakistani datacomms manager incidentally, needs his training updated in REAL technology, not in mixing coloured water.

[rjh01]

I went there earlier today. I tried the same way just now and failed (cannot find server). It may work later.

Give the people a chance. Sometimes I cannot get to JREF.

[Zep]

Wah-hey! It's back! The OLD forum, I mean... Seems the "super-fast" new ISP servers had a hiccup.

ETA: The NCH front page still points to the new forum, which has a total of 17 posts now.

[rjh01]

They are planning to (ie thinking about) suspend members who have not posted.

See http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909

It is funny. I think I am about to be banned for posting. Are they afraid of something?

[Zep]

They are afraid of EVERYTHING! :) Especially the truth. They want to treat the forum like it was MAS's loungeroom - no-one but them meeting and talking, and no-one else telling them they are wrong. They cannot abide any dissent.

[Aepervius]

This wmen has obviously a big proble with her cycle/ovulation, and the doctor migh even have told her she was sterile (I am speculating on the no-ovulation part).

This is really sad....

Menstruation problem (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=905)

I tried register but did not work... Will somebody try to post something more sensical there ?

[MRC_Hans]

You know, they don't want sense, in there.

Hans

[rjh01]

I do not think we should debate how good homeopathy is over there. It is there forum and they say what should go on there. We should instead, if we need to, invite people over here for that purpose.

[Zep]

Oh that's been done, and some did indeed come over here. The problem (for them) is that they wilted severely in the face of some obvious facts, and the first pertinent questions on their own special subject that they had ever met in their life, probably.

You might care to look up posts and threads by one Dr. MAS for a start. He's their main culprit...sorry, "star".

[Mojo]

Basically, all we got was MAS and his buddies/socks acting like buffoons. No debate was possible, as any question we asked him was met with evasions and irrelevancies.

[rjh01]

That is right Zep. I agree with you 100%.

No point in trying to convert the chiefs like Dr. MAS. That is just a waste of space. But the troops are another matter. Get them over here and who knows how far we can go.

The culture is different between this forum and their country and forum.

I do know about Dr. MAS and the sort of thing he used to post here.

[Mojo]

He even got his own tribute thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=38999) in the "humor" subforum.

[Zep]

That is right Zep. I agree with you 100%.

No point in trying to convert the chiefs like Dr. MAS. That is just a waste of space. But the troops are another matter. Get them over here and who knows how far we can go.

The culture is different between this forum and their country and forum.

I do know about Dr. MAS and the sort of thing he used to post here.You need to be aware that their community at NCH is actually quite small, and MAS is endowed with a modicum of imperium by being the assistant to the new chairman. So what he says is considered gospel truth among the little band there. And MAS has admonished them not to post here because he is personally miffed he got banned for being a very naughty boy here. So the others certainly are able to post here, but they won't basically because MAS told them not to. What is more, like good little robots, they continue to trumpet the line that "all homeopaths are banned on JREF", and that we have it in for them - all a completely MAS-constructed lie.

But by all means invite them again - we have done so many times on their forum but they won't come. For them, there's nothing like being frightened by the big bad boogie-man of truth! :D

[steenkh]

Did Dr. A Sheikh also manage to get himself banned here? As I remember, he was a bit desperate because his hero was banned, but he was not persecuted himself in the same way.

Anyway, from what I have seen of the "troops", there is little hope that they would follow any other tune that that of their "officers". They have only tried to wreck serious discussions. Dr. A Sheikh was actually one of the best of a bad lot.

[Darat]

Dr. A Sheikh has is not suspended or banned.

[steenkh]

Dr. A Sheikh has is not suspended or banned.
I am sure that it irks him mightily! He really tried!

[Mojo]

Unfortunately for him there isn't anything in the rules about muticolored posts.

[rjh01]

I can lead horses to water. I cannot make them drink it.

Horses = people at NCH
water = us.

[Zep]

Dr. A Sheikh has is not suspended or banned.He got 3 days once, for trying your patience, I seem to recall.

Whatever - he was back posting afterwards.

Incidentally, I believe I can now find photographic evidence that Sheikh is actually NOT MAS. It's inadvertent evidence, but if the names attributed to the people in two photographs are correct, then the above is indeed true. In which case I will have to alter my views on the simultaneous existence of those two gents! (I previously drew the conclusion here that they were the same person.)

[rjh01]

I have been suspended from NCH. This suspension is due to end on Jul 2 2007, 11:05 PM. Dr MAS is still in control.

[Zep]

Did they say why?

[rjh01]

No they do not have to. The answer is Dr Mas. Here is the thread - http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#entry11631
You need to be registered to see it. My sock puppets are breeding, may give Darat a headache from the radioactive fallout. That is if I let them loose at NCH.

But here are the extracts of the thread. Read it quick before Darat cries copyright violation and deletes it.





Worldcall (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=347)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 5 2006, 04:03 AM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
A person get registration at NCH forum for what? Obviously for taking part in discussion otherwise forum is open for reading. The person who wants to discuss something at board will have to clear his/her mind before taking part in the discussion. If that mind is homeopathy is quackry then what is the purpose of joining this forum? I was informed that about NCH forum few members of both forums (nch and randi) misconceptually feeded wrong info at randi forum. I again reiterate that we have no clash with randi forum and our policies have no link with any other forum. I only know that NCH office has issued a letter to all homeopathic colleges in Pakistan to get registration at this forum. The colleges are closed due to vacations. We are expecting a very good participation of new members at this forum. We will not like that new members may face any difficulty in their participation.





Worldcall (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=347)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 5 2006, 04:08 AM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
Any member who will give us certification that he/she will not discourage the NCH forum members / will not check in their discussion plus in his/her opinion practice of homeopathic medicines is not quackry is allowed to participate freely. This facility is also available for those who are already ban / suspended.

Give us undertaking that homeopathic practice is not quackry and join the forum again. I am bound to NCH office order. For undertaking and further clarification if any, write at nchpakistan@hotmail.com





Natrum Mur (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=454)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 5 2006, 05:21 AM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
Please explain. If person does not post but only read how does that stop full discussion. thank you



caldesilk (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=12)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 5 2006, 12:40 PM







rjh01 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=451)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 5 2006, 04:39 PM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif

QUOTE (Worldcall @ Jul 5 2006, 04:33 AM)I was informed that about NCH forum few members of both forums (NCH and randi) misconceptually feeded wrong info at randi forum.
Do people at Randi (http://forums.randi.org/forumindex.php) post things about you that are not true? http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/html/emoticons/mad.gif Can you give examples please?


I have told them not to debate how good homeopathy is at your forum. I do not know how much notice they take of me as I am not a moderator or anything there.






Dr. MAS (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=7)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 6 2006, 12:39 PM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
Hello Worldcall

Each one coming from Randi is the part of randi team, although they have clarified repeatedly that they are not the part of admin but who will believe on randi forum liars?

They said, my account was in use by multiple persons, I say, no it was not. In this regard, no evidence neither any proof was provided to me and ban was imposed. Then they say, a private message was sent to me, I say, I did not read it because the message was without pm notification and I have no intimation to that one, they replied, pm was sent with notification and I have also read it. No evidence was given to me.

Through this board, if somebody from randi is reading this mail. For their notice I quote

My user name was : Dr. MAS
My password was: myname

Uplift the ban, I will not come. I guarantee you. Log in through my account and see yourself whether I read the mail (pm) or not? An other interesting thing is that when administrator sent that pm at my email address and I contacted him and clarified my position on the point raised by him, then he said, pm was not sent to you for asking you to send clarification. http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif (What a rule?) Intensions are so clear in their moves.

In putting ban on other homeopath's account they did not even observe a single rule. In an instance, they just thought to put ban (I don't know who told them to do so, I guess the administrator put ban under pressure by the randi members because they were so annoyed with homeopaths) and they without following any clear evidence exercised their power of putting ban. This type of behaviour was totally uncalled for. I don't understand it.

So if you ever think to uplift the ban from randi people (not skeptics because skeptics are not necessary the part of randi team) then do think twice before doing so. Although I have no problem with skeptics or randi land people but my homeopaths have also withdrawn their names from randi forum due to continuous threat of banning the account from the administrators. This I have quoted many times at different forum. I am in the field of Internet for more then two decades. I never faced any difficulty in feeding my thoughts to people of any caliber. I have a very good team of experts who can deal with them if they allow to participate.

Please do not interlink my problem with NCH forum. I am not the part of NCH web team. I am running my own site. I am a common member just like I am discussing at all world of forums. yes, there are many friends at each forum of mine and I'm also proud of them.


--------------------
Dr. MAS




rjh01 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=451)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 6 2006, 05:45 PM





http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
A few comments on Dr. Mas post above
1. I am not privy to PM between Dr. Mas and JREF. Nor the internals of Jref. However if anyone wants to find evidence that more than one person was using the one account then take a look at the times Dr. Mas posted. There are several posts close together in time over several threads. Too many for one person to make.




Bhakkar (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showuser=473)Posted: (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=909&st=0&#) Jul 7 2006, 10:27 PM



http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/style_images/1/spacer.gif
What is the issue?

Which member among you considers doing homeopathic practice is quackery? A "yes" man is welcome other has to find other place.

A simple rule is set by NCH, if you do not like this rule then leave it.

Reply at hotmail address. The topic is closed.

[Mouthfire]

Each one coming from Randi is the part of randi team, although they have clarified repeatedly that they are not the part of admin but who will believe on randi forum liars?

Do I sense a bit of paranoia from Mr. MAS?

[Mojo]

Posted: Jul 5 2006, 04:03 AM

A person get registration at NCH forum for what? Obviously for taking part in discussion otherwise forum is open for reading. The person who wants to discuss something at board will have to clear his/her mind before taking part in the discussion. That's right: clear your mind of all the advances in scientific and medical knowledge since Hahnemann's time. All that nasty chemistry, the germ theory of disease...

[Mojo]

I like the slogan they have at the top of every page: http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/NCH Homeopathic Forum For Everyone Everyone who promises to agree with them, that is.

[rjh01]

Is it just me or is the NCH forum down? Been like this for a few days.

[Qureshi1_78]

Zep, today for the first time I read few posts of this long thread. Let me info you that copying material from nch forum at randi forum is not allowed.

[The_Fire]

Zep, today for the first time I read few posts of this long thread. Let me info you that copying material from nch forum at randi forum is not allowed.

According to whom?

[rjh01]

I also notice that at NCH they have put severe restrictions on new registrations. One implication is that you must be a 'yes man'.

I predict it will self destruct. The forum is only small.

The forum was down for several days. It has just come up.

[Qureshi1_78]

Two points

One copyrigth ristriction that applies over each forum and second nchforum admin notice.

[flume]

It seems that Zep may have quit the JREF forum since he is now listed as a guest. I think this means he will not be able to post here unless he rejoins the forum.

[rjh01]

Two points

One copyrigth ristriction that applies over each forum and second nchforum admin notice.

Well sue us for breech of copyright.

nchforum rules do not apply here.:D

[steenkh]

Well sue us for breech of copyright.

nchforum rules do not apply here.:D
Actually, they do. It is not allowed to post copyrighted material here.

[rjh01]

Actually, they do. It is not allowed to post copyrighted material here.
Let us get this right.
1. NCH rules do NOT apply here. They can have any rules there and they can only be enforced at NCH forum by NCH admin.
2. Randi rules DO apply here.
3. Rule 4 covers copyright.
4. If a person believes that rule 4 has been breeched then they can report that post by clicking on the little red triangle on that post.

[Aepervius]

My understanding on copyright is a bit rusted but the following needs to be clarified :
1) Is there a notice that poster on NCH forum transfert up all copyright of their own posting to NCH forum ? If not then they cannot regulate if people may copy each other opinion on other forum.
2) Even then there is this nasty bit called "fair use". As long as you do not copy verbatim a whole work then you can make choosen citation. Which is the case here.
3) By the way, since then are opinion on forum copyrighted work ? We ain't speaking of column in a journal or anything else here...

[rjh01]

Things are not very good at NCH. From NCHPakistan (an admin person)

The instructions [from NCH council] are to remove all posts that are linked with opposition members. The instructions are post at forum after consulation with council. Remove all members who are sending posts against homeopathy.


Source http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=870&st=30&#entry11792

Requires registration. This may be difficult to do to say the least.

[steenkh]

Things are not very good at NCH. From NCHPakistan (an admin person)


Source http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=870&st=30&#entry11792

Requires registration. This may be difficult to do to say the least.
So do you think "fitness" also has to go? He seemed open to question certain homoeopathic tenets.

[rjh01]

"Fitness" last post was on 14 June 2006. His previous post was on 16 May. Before that he was posting a lot. I have no idea for the reason for his lack of posts after that. He still is listed as Chief Moderator.

What I think is of no importance.