Homeopathy challenge question

[ferpinto]

Hi,
I'm new in this forum and I will like to know if the homeopathy challenge consists in poving that there is something in a dilution over the Avogadro limit, or poving that homeopathy cures, or both.
Thanks

[brodski]

Hi,
I'm new in this forum and I will like to know if the homeopathy challenge consists in poving that there is something in a dilution over the Avogadro limit, or poving that homeopathy cures, or both.
Thanks
either would be an acceptable test, alternatively just being able to tell a "high potency" remedy from the stock solvent (by whatever means, including by measuring its effects on people) would net you the million.
Proving that homeopathy was effective may be a little more tricky, medical ethics and all that, remember the JREF will not accept an application which may put someone at risk.

Oh, and welcome. :)

[ferpinto]

Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.

[Ririon]

Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.
You do not have to state the details of the lab test. Just say that you "using my own unspecified lab equipment in less that N hours, I can differentiate between 12c homeopathic medicine and stock solvent."

You may add:

"To make sure you do not think I am just measuring contaminants, I am prepared to have the control samples go through the same production process (minus the mother tincture) at the same time as the homeopathic medicine. I suggest the standard traditional Hahnemann method is used."

[Ririon]

Oh, and: "I do not wish for the JREF to change any of the challenge rules just for me." :D (That's a comment on some other threads.)

[Donks]

Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.
I would suggest you state in your application that you can distinguish between a high potency homeopathic preparation and the stock solvent. You do not need to state how you will do it. For instance, you could try to work out in the protocol that you'd be given 10 unlabeled vials, half of which contain the remedy and the other half stock solvent. You can then take these to your lab, perform whatever tests you want on them, identify the 5 that do contain molecules form the mother tincture, and report back. You'd need to get 8 right, I believe tho I could be wrong, to pass the preliminary.

[Jeff Wagg]

I think Donks is on the right track. If your solvent is water, and you can tell the difference between water and 12c Belladonna or whatever, using whatever equipment you'd like, I think that would do it.

Steps would have to be taken to remove the risk of tampering.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Assuming you are using water as a solvent, there will still be other molecules present above Avogadro’s limit. The trick is that there is no such thing as pure water. So every time you add water you add a few contaminates with it. That is why it is suggested that a good test would be for someone to correctly “detect” 30C solutions from just plain solvent.

If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.

LLH

[Jackalgirl]

Assuming you are using water as a solvent, there will still be other molecules present above Avogadro’s limit. The trick is that there is no such thing as pure water. So every time you add water you add a few contaminates with it. That is why it is suggested that a good test would be for someone to correctly “detect” 30C solutions from just plain solvent.

If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.

LLH

I'd like to see someone not just identify "molecules", but be able to identify which substance is "in" a solution. So, for example, if I have a list of 8 different solutions (plus, say, two bottles of plain solvent), I'd really like to see a homeopath correctly label all of them.

-- Jackalgirl

[Rasmus]

I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath

<rant>
Right. It bothers me to no end, it p***es me off royally when peolpe say that. Molecules? Of course there will be friggin molecules, else you would be working with a bottle of ACME vacuum.

Please, be specific. Not too much to ask for an easy million bucks, right?
</rant>

(above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it.


Now you've got me very curious ... do you actually believe in homoeopathy, or think that the diluting process will leave traces even if you were to use identical substances to be mixed?

i.e. would your test still work, if Ririon's suggestion was a mandatory part of the protocol? I would not be surprised to learn that all the pouring from bottle to bottle, the measuring and shaking would change a liquid. (If the liquid was beer, I'd bet it'd be stall after the procedure .... maybe there are related effects for water or alcohol.)

How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?

Others have suggested possible protocols; you might even be able to have the solutions delivered to you by mail for the preliminary tests.

Rasmus.

[joller]

Now you've got me very curious ... do you actually believe in homoeopathy, or think that the diluting process will leave traces even if you were to use identical substances to be mixed?
I think that would be his method.
One thing that I don't understand - if he can detect something in those higly diluted potions, that simply means that it has not been diluted to the specified potency, doesn't it?
I think it's illogical, and as such the claim should not even be tested.

If anything can be detected through the measurement of contaminants etc. that means that the dilution process wasn't good enough, and the resulting potion doesn't have the specified dilution level, so we're not really testing the ability to distinguish high potency dilution from the solvant, but we're testing thequality of the process. (after all, what is the definition of homeopathic potency, and do their potions satisfy those requirements?)

Besides, haven't we established that with the quality of the labs homeopaths have access to, it would be impossible to produce a dilution of those high potencies anyway?
Ririon's suggestion was a mandatory part of the protocol?
I for one, wouldn't have it any other way...

[Zep]

Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.Perhaps you need to be aware that, by definition, if there ARE molecules of the original MT still present in a 12C or higher remedy, then it is NOT a 12C or higher remedy! What you have is either a very poor dilution process, or tampering.

And given the descriptions we have seen from various homeopaths, the former is very much the higher likelihood.

[rjh01]

I think we need to dilute the control samples as well. This is to ensure that you are not detecting the dilution process. For example if the solvent was beer, you dilute some beer with the same type of beer. Then you would have beer diluted with beer (control sample) and drug diluted with beer (drug sample).

[Hellbound]

Personally, I like the idea of using two different homeopathic remedies, both prepared identically except for using a different moter tincture for each.

Just correctly identify which is which :)

[Lothian]

I don’t think this is a valid test. We do give the homeopaths grief for not understanding simple maths (math for yanks) but....

It is quite possible for some of the mother substance (is that the name?) to appear in very high dilutions. Taking a random 100th and diluting each time does not guarantee you will get rid of all traces. Obviously the chance that there will be none in at C13 and above moves from possibly true to probably true to highly probable but it will never reach definitely true.

There is nothing supernatural in molecules being left, or in a lab finding some.

What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.

[Rasmus]

There is nothing supernatural in molecules being left, or in a lab finding some.

True.

But at high-enough-levels of dilution, if you find a molecule of the active ingredient it is as likely to be contamination as traces of the mother tincture that was used.

So, as long as the JREF produces the dilutions or obtains them fro ma trustworthy source, it is "paranormal" to be able to tell apart the dilution from the stock solvent 9 times out of 10.

Yes, it is possible that a sample of C13 might still be showing traces of the mother tincture. But that might aid the applicant in one of the trials at best. Leaving another 8 bottles to be identified by other means. If they can do that, they have earned a million dollars. And if the JREF didn't make sure everything was properly stirred and shaken beforehand, they just don't deserve any better.

Rasmus.

[steenkh]

It is quite possible for some of the mother substance (is that the name?) to appear in very high dilutions. Taking a random 100th and diluting each time does not guarantee you will get rid of all traces. Obviously the chance that there will be none in at C13 and above moves from possibly true to probably true to highly probable but it will never reach definitely true.

There is nothing supernatural in molecules being left, or in a lab finding some.
I have understood that even though contamination makes it likely that some mother molecules will be left, the serial dilutions ensure that the concentration is so low that no laboratory will be able to trace them. Or more specifically, that no laboratory will be able to find something that will not also be found in the stock solvent.

In any case, I imagine that the JREF will demand tight control over the manufacture of the homoeopathic dilutions, and surely, contaminations will be kept at a minimum.

[stup_id]

Maybe to avoid this technicall troubles regarding the ocurrence of finding "any molecules" in the test, 20 vials, 10 with a supposedly ingredient, and 10 with other can be used, all of them in above 12C dillutions, and the applicant should determine which is which...

[Rasmus]

Maybe to avoid this technicall troubles regarding the ocurrence of finding "any molecules" in the test, 20 vials, 10 with a supposedly ingredient, and 10 with other can be used, all of them in above 12C dillutions, and the applicant should determine which is which...

I think this places an undue extra-burden on the applicant.

It is one thing to be able to detect a homoeopathic effect in a solution vs. none. It's simply another issue to be able to tell apart different homoeopathic effects.

Also, if there should be traces of the active ingredient in any of the samples, it wouldn't matter either way: Any such sample could be identified, anyways.

Rasmus.

[Mojo]

It is one thing to be able to detect a homoeopathic effect in a solution vs. none. It's simply another issue to be able to tell apart different homoeopathic effects. They should be able to tell them apart by observing "proving" symptoms (if they exist outside the imaginations of homoeopaths).

[brodski]

So, as long as the JREF produces the dilutions or obtains them fro ma trustworthy source,
Where would one find a "trustworthy" supplier of homeopathic remedies?

[Rasmus]

They should be able to tell them apart by observing "proving" symptoms (if they exist outside the imaginations of homoeopaths).

Yes, they should be. But not every applicant might make the same claim as homoeopathy itself does.

Heck, they *should* be able to name you the ingredient even without being given a limited set of options. "here's a little flask of water, taken from an entire ocean into which we poured 5 drops of ...?"

Rasmus.

[Rasmus]

Where would one find a "trustworthy" supplier of homeopathic remedies?

Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone who makes a living selling homoeopathic remedies. But there could still be trustworthy sources: A regular lab that is being paid to perform the necessary steps for example.

Outsourcing the process seems reasonable, I guess it would be difficult and expensive, to produce the solution whilst ensuring that everything is done right, with no contaminations, etc.

Rasmus.

[Anti_Hypeman]

Chance of seeing post # 3 from ferpinto = 32X

[Gr8wight]

What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.

The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.

JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort

[joller]

The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.
It would also be very time consuming (the process could take weeks or months), and very difficult to control (the homeopaths themselves couldn't know whether they give the placebo or uhmm... the other placebo to each patient).
I say testing the efficacy of homeopathic drugs should be left to the medical researchers.
Oh wait, they already tested those pills. And decided they're ineffective.
As someone told me in a different thread: how many times should we test them?

[Mojo]

What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.
The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I really don’t think it matters how the homeopath is going to tell the difference between the vials of properly prepared solutions and the vials of solvent. Maybe it would be best not to ask. Just give them a box full of numbered vials and have them determine which is which by what ever means they choose (like Rolfe’s idea).

LLH

[Rasmus]

They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.

Not to mention, of course, that rational people fail to see harm in letting people consume water.

[Lothian]

Call me an optimist.

If the million is won I would like it to be for something that will change the world for the better. Someone that can see into the future, find water with just sticks or cure the ill with sugar pills.

Telling apart water capsules, while statistically fantastic, doesn’t provide the exciting breakthrough the world has been promised by the supernatural believers.

It might pass the test, but what use is it ?

[Gr8wight]

They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.

I don't find it beyond belief that feeding healthy people high concentration doses of various substances can cause deleterious effects. That claim is not extraordinary in any way. The claim that is extraordinary is the one that states that remedies made of extreme dilutions of said substances can have any effect at all on people, be they healthy or ill.

[Mojo]

I don't find it beyond belief that feeding healthy people high concentration doses of various substances can cause deleterious effects. That claim is not extraordinary in any way. The claim that is extraordinary is the one that states that remedies made of extreme dilutions of said substances can have any effect at all on people, be they healthy or ill.Provings are carried out using the actual "remedy" rather than the crude substance it is prepared from. See here (http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/content/view/24/41/), for example: The process of curing and the process of proving are alike, but they are the inverse of each other. A healthy person who takes a "medicine" (potentised agent) in the process of a proving will come up with symptoms determined by their susceptibility to it. A sick person who takes a remedy prescribed according to the law of similars, will experience restoration of his health.Note that they are talking about a "potentised agent", not the crude substance.

See also here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=997597#post997597), where Homeopath Syed is describing the horrendous symptoms allegedly produced by a 200c remedy.

[Rolfe]

You have to look at this lot (http://www.hominf.org/proving.htm).

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

I found that while I was looking for a site to quote in my last reply. unfortunately I was at work and had trouble keeping a straight face.

Mind you, I'm disappointed by the proving of Bewick's Swan (prepared from a feather). I was kind of hoping that they'd prepared it from a wood engraving.

In view of some of the other provings there I didn't think this was too unlikely.

Do you really approve of that site? ;)

[Mojo]

Anyway, the swan they've used for the illustration is in fact a mute swan (http://www.bewicksociety.org/gallery/publications/birds_water/swan800.html) (although engraved by Bewick).

[DrMatt]

I think we need to dilute the control samples as well. This is to ensure that you are not detecting the dilution process. For example if the solvent was beer, you dilute some beer with the same type of beer. Then you would have beer diluted with beer (control sample) and drug diluted with beer (drug sample).

NOW we're talking.

To achieve homeopathic solutions of anything, you'll need to bring in Planet Beer, which is roughly the size of Jupiter and entirely made of beer.

[Mojo]

Who cares about achieving homoeopathic solutions anyway? I'm off to planet beer (AKA the pub).

[Rasmus]

You have to look at this lot (http://www.hominf.org/proving.htm).

Rolfe.

I am going to be so rich!

I will become a drug dealer for potentized LSD and Heroin.

All I will have to do is illegally acquire one dose of each, and then delute the entire amount to C14. The police can't touch me for storing water, or selling it.

I assume my customers will just love me - what I sell will be of the finest quality, inducing highs they have never known before.

Naturally, I will also revolutionize trafficking across borders; and in only months to come, I will control the international market. Since I will barely require any actual drugs - and mostly water - i will single handedly bring down world production of most drugs, too, as I take on new substances.

Then, since I am a good person, after milking the world markets for a year or two, I will stop the drug problem. (My plan is to slowly lowly lower the potencies to something totally ineffective like C5; I will need quite a bit of origial substance for that, but surely my customers will notice the drop in efficiency and - having nowhere else to turn anymore - will just have to stop using drugs.)

And don't tell me it doesn't work: I know it does, it's what they are doiung with American beer already!

Rasmus.

[brodski]

I am going to be so rich!

I will become a drug dealer for potentized LSD and Heroin.

All I will have to do is illegally acquire one dose of each, and then delute the entire amount to C14. The police can't touch me for storing water, or selling it.

I assume my customers will just love me - what I sell will be of the finest quality, inducing highs they have never known before.

Naturally, I will also revolutionize trafficking across borders; and in only months to come, I will control the international market. Since I will barely require any actual drugs - and mostly water - i will single handedly bring down world production of most drugs, too, as I take on new substances.

Then, since I am a good person, after milking the world markets for a year or two, I will stop the drug problem. (My plan is to slowly lowly lower the potencies to something totally ineffective like C5; I will need quite a bit of original substance for that, but surely my customers will notice the drop in efficiency and - having nowhere else to turn anymore - will just have to stop using drugs.)

And don't tell me it doesn't work: I know it does, it's what they are doiung with American beer already!

Rasmus.
but remember homeopathic preparations are meant to have the opposite effect to the base substance. so, so for instance heroin 20C would cause you a massive amount of pain (as heroin is a pain killer) maybe
LSD 20C would make you see things exactly as they are. Perhaps coffee 200C will get you drunk tough, or maybe act as a sleeping tablet.
:p

[Hellbound]

but remember homeopathic preparations are meant to have the opposite effect to the base substance. so, so for instance heroin 20C would cause you a massive amount of pain (as heroin is a pain killer) maybe
LSD 20C would make you see things exactly as they are. Perhaps coffee 200C will get you drunk tough, or maybe act as a sleeping tablet.
:p

Nah, 200C anabuse would be a potent way to get drunk :)

And what's the one for morphine addiction, methadone? That's the one to get high on, homeopathically.

[Rasmus]

but remember homeopathic preparations are meant to have the opposite effect to the base substance.

Yes, but only if you already suffer from the symptoms. The drugs would work just like in proving and induce the regular symptoms.

so, so for instance heroin 20C would cause you a massive amount of pain (as heroin is a pain killer) maybe
LSD 20C would make you see things exactly as they are.

You just doubled my sales: If you take the first shot, you'll get your high, the second shot should make you sober again.

I'll let you know when your first check is ready.

Perhaps coffee 200C will get you drunk tough, or maybe act as a sleeping tablet.
:p

I see the possibilities are endless. Really makes you wonder why the silly homoeopaths limit themselves to curing sick people. A noble cause, and I will not fault them for it, of course, but they could be doing so much more, and at the same time convince so many more people of their abilities.

Rasmus.

[Ririon]

You don't even have to do anything illegal. In many contries, you can buy and carry around narcotics in small amounts for personal consumption. Then just dilute it beyond Avogadro's limit before crossing any borders. :)

However, in Norway, the last part of your scheme is illegal. You can not sell home-made homeopathic remedies here.

[Rasmus]

You don't even have to do anything illegal. In many contries, you can buy and carry around narcotics in small amounts for personal consumption. Then just dilute it beyond Avogadro's limit before crossing any borders. :)

True. I was assuming that buying even small quantities with the intention of selling them further would be illegal. not that they would ever find out or go after me, of course.

However, in Norway, the last part of your scheme is illegal. You can not sell home-made homeopathic remedies here.

It wouldn't be a "remedy", would it? Also, I could turn into a proper buisness with a proper lab.

Rasmus.

[Ririon]

True. I was assuming that buying even small quantities with the intention of selling them further would be illegal. not that they would ever find out or go after me, of course.

You are not going to sell as much as a microgram of it, are you? ;)


It wouldn't be a "remedy", would it? Also, I could turn into a proper buisness with a proper lab.

Rasmus.
As long as you are going for an industrial scale "world domination"-style, you have to do that anyway. :)

[Rasmus]

You are not going to sell as much as a microgram of it, are you? ;)

Well, in fact, I will be selling as much as a handful of individual molecules, deluted in gallons of water at a time. So I will probably end up selling all of my original stock.

As long as you are going for an industrial scale "world domination"-style, you have to do that anyway. :)

Right. then i will start delivering in Norway as soon as things kick of the ground and I can afford the labs and everything.

Rasmus.

[brodski]

Yes, but only if you already suffer from the symptoms. The drugs would work just like in proving and induce the regular symptoms.



You just doubled my sales: If you take the first shot, you'll get your high, the second shot should make you sober again.

I'll let you know when your first check is ready.



I see the possibilities are endless. Really makes you wonder why the silly homoeopaths limit themselves to curing sick people. A noble cause, and I will not fault them for it, of course, but they could be doing so much more, and at the same time convince so many more people of their abilities.

Rasmus.
I see you've got this all worked out, do you need a business partner? :D

[Rasmus]

I see you've got this all worked out, do you need a business partner? :D

Would you be interested in a franchise?

[brodski]

Would you be interested in a franchise?
would you accept homeopathic payment for the franchise? :p

[Ririon]

Well, in fact, I will be selling as much as a handful of individual molecules, deluted in gallons of water at a time. So I will probably end up selling all of my original stock...
At 200C? I think you should redo your math... I would be surprised if you sold a single heroin molecule in your lifetime. :D

The ONLY problem with this plan is that the average miserable homeless drug addict knows more about biochemistry, medicine, dosages and the effect of any drug on the human body than all the homeopaths in Pakistan put together.:(

[Hellbound]

The ONLY problem with this plan is that the average miserable homeless drug addict knows more about biochemistry, medicine, dosages and the effect of any drug on the human body than all the homeopaths in Pakistan put together.:(

Well, to be fair, so does the average miniature poodle.

[Ririon]

Well, to be fair, so does the average miniature poodle.
True. "Pakistan" should be "the world." Drug addicts usually know a lot about these subjects. So do a few homeopaths in the western world. They just ignore large parts of that knowledge. "The world" should be about right. :rolleyes:

[rjh01]

How do you prepare a 200C solution of anything? If you start with one micro gram of the drug you would need 10 power 188 Tonnes (that is a number with 1 followed by 188 zeros) of solvent to dissolve it all.
If you dilute the drug by 1000 each time you would need to repeat the dilution 10 power 198 times, just to get one result.

These figures cannot be right! Can someone please check them.

I assume 2C = 100 dilutions?

[Gr8wight]

I assume 2C = 100 dilutions?

No. 2C = two dilutions of 1:100. Here is an interesting read I came across today.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holmes.html

[Gr8wight]

Provings are carried out using the actual "remedy" rather than the crude substance it is prepared from. See here (http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/content/view/24/41/), for example: Note that they are talking about a "potentised agent", not the crude substance.

See also here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=997597#post997597), where Homeopath Syed is describing the horrendous symptoms allegedly produced by a 200c remedy.


Those sucks! That's not the way Hahnemann did it.

[Rasmus]

How do you prepare a 200C solution of anything? If you start with one micro gram of the drug you would need 10 power 188 Tonnes (that is a number with 1 followed by 188 zeros) of solvent to dissolve it all.

Simple: You don't dissolve it all.

[steenkh]

How do you prepare a 200C solution of anything? If you start with one micro gram of the drug you would need 10 power 188 Tonnes (that is a number with 1 followed by 188 zeros) of solvent to dissolve it all.
You use serial dilutions where you throw out 99 parts in the drain at every stage.

[Zep]

And it is this very process that confuses the heck out of the homeopaths. They naively calculate that the sum of the discards from each step of a serial dilution constitutes the overall dilution factor. For example, after 10 dilutions at 1:10, they reckon that the end dilution ratio is (10*9):1, or 90:1. The reality is that it is 1010:1, or 10,000,000,000:1 It gets worse, believe me. Their maths abilities are remarkably weak...

[hipparchia]

Not to mention, of course, that rational people fail to see harm in letting people consume water.

I once suggested in a Bulgarian homeopathy forum that "prooving" a medicine in its dilluted form would be impossible. I bought a vial of pills of an unknown medicine, so that I would be blind to the symptoms. Nothing unusial from taking it. Now, had I known the symptoms, I might have bet I experienced some of them (vague things like weight in the head- who doesn't have it when working with a computer the whole day...). Then I innocently suggested that I try the medicine on my brother (unknown to him) and see if he shrivels up. Well, I was told I'd be banned from the forum for "unethical experiments with other people". But it comes to show that many homeo-fans believe a dramatic show of symptoms may result in taking a medicine dilluted to 200C. I still wonder why nobody wanted the million with so easy a way of proving homeopathy has a measurable effect...

[Zep]

This has often been done as a publicity stunt by skeptics, including a number of very public "suicide attempts" by them using whole bottles each of homeopathic sleeping pillules.*

The homeopaths were aghast! Thought there would be bodies littering the streets! Result: Some mild sugar-highs only, no changes otherwise noted.


*NOT recommended to be done using unlicensed homeopathic products, because some of the more unscrupulous H. manufacturers have been known to secretly adulterate their stuff with generous portions of "real" medications to make them actually do domething.

[Zep]

I still wonder why nobody wanted the million with so easy a way of proving homeopathy has a measurable effect...Simple answer: They know in their heart of hearts that it DOESN'T WORK!

[Mojo]

This has often been done as a publicity stunt by skeptics, including a number of very public "suicide attempts" by them using whole bottles each of homeopathic sleeping pillules.*

The homeopaths were aghast! Thought there would be bodies littering the streets! Result: Some mild sugar-highs only, no changes otherwise noted.I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred. :oldroll:

[Gr8wight]

And it is this very process that confuses the heck out of the homeopaths. They naively calculate that the sum of the discards from each step of a serial dilution constitutes the overall dilution factor. For example, after 10 dilutions at 1:10, they reckon that the end dilution ratio is (10*9):1, or 90:1. The reality is that it is 1010:1, or 10,000,000,000:1 It gets worse, believe me. Their maths abilities are remarkably weak...

On the contrary. I have just done some research on the web for a blog article I wrote on the subject, and most of the Alt-Med and Homeopathy websites I consulted were very open about the extremities of the dilutions. Some openly admitted that dilutions past 12C were unlikely to still contain any of the original ingredient. Yet, they insist that the potentising succussions between dilutions maintained the beneficial properties of the medications. It is truly a belief in ritual magic, as another poster here has said.

[brodski]

I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred. :oldroll:
Taking lots of homeopathic "remedies" at the same time won't lead to an overdose, in fact each additional pill you take will lessen the effects of the remedy. if you really want to OD on homeopathy, take half a tablet (for double the effect), or if your really really want to overdose don't take it at all!
;)

[Yahzi]

If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.
It never ceases to amaze me.

Somebody comes into the forum and breathlessly announces, "I can prove fundamental chemistry is wrong, revoke a half-dozen Nobel prizes, and overturn the last 100 years of science! Do you think it's worth Randi's million?"

Why is it the woos, who whine about our lack of imagination, are so... unimaginative?

[MRC_Hans]

'cuse me. For a proper challenge protocol, where the claimant can use any method he chooses t odistinguish between a homeoapthid remedy and blanks, we need to make sure there is no spurious difference, which would put his random chance at 50%. Thus remdy and control should be prepared along these lines:

Assume the remedy is to be 30C.

Then some 12C or thereabouts is aquired (if not available it is made from scratch). At 12C one drop of remedy is placed in a new container, and topped up with 99 drop of solvent. In another container, 100 drops of solvent are placed. Both are now succussed. One drop from each is transferred to a new container, topped up, succussed, etc, till the desired potency of both is reached. The resultant vials, with coded labelling are then presented to the claimant for identification.

Of course, the claimant must identify a number of such prepard vials to pass, and other soafeguards need be introduced, but the point of this is to ensure that the only differende between the remedy and the control is the (putative) presense of a potency of the mother tincture.

Hans

[Zep]

I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred. :oldroll:True. Which leads to the obvious conclusions:

1) That you can take many remedies at once in bulk, and not overdose; and thus...

2) Tap-water is a cure-all for every known illness! :D

[Zep]

On the contrary. I have just done some research on the web for a blog article I wrote on the subject, and most of the Alt-Med and Homeopathy websites I consulted were very open about the extremities of the dilutions. Some openly admitted that dilutions past 12C were unlikely to still contain any of the original ingredient. Yet, they insist that the potentising succussions between dilutions maintained the beneficial properties of the medications. It is truly a belief in ritual magic, as another poster here has said.Ah, sorry - my mistake. I'm far more familiar with the Pakistani homeopaths, and so had them in mind when I wrote my post. Their level of knowledge of basic mathematics, let alone basic chemistry and physics, is about on par with a 4th-grader. What is more, magic and ritual, and especially religion, already play a large part in their lives. So it is comfortable for them to incorporate magic and ritual into their medical knowledge instead of facts, to not question same because it is a matter of faith, and to actively reject facts that defy these beliefs.

Yes, the situation you describe of dilution far beyond molarity are obviously apparent to most educated people in the world, most homeopaths included. But even Nobel laureates in physics can succumb to ludicrous faith-based crackpottery - Professor Brian Josephson, for example.

[macgyver]

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but if all we need to do is test whether or not a 12C or 30C dilution still contains some "mother tincture", couldn't we just dillute some radioactive isotope to the required dillution, and then test the resultant dilluted solution?

No measurable radioactivity = no molecules of mother tincture

Plus it would have the benefit of being an incredibly powerful anti-radiation medication. :)

[Ririon]

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but if all we need to do is test whether or not a 12C or 30C dilution still contains some "mother tincture", couldn't we just dillute some radioactive isotope to the required dillution, and then test the resultant dilluted solution?

No measurable radioactivity = no molecules of mother tincture

Plus it would have the benefit of being an incredibly powerful anti-radiation medication. :)
You would get to background radiation long before Avogadro's limit. The problem is getting somebody who actually believes that there are still molecules there even if you explain the simple reason why there aren't, and still is sane and intelligent enough to go through the application process...

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

[macgyver]

You would get to background radiation long before Avogadro's limit. The problem is getting somebody who actually believes that there are still molecules there even if you explain the simple reason why there aren't, and still is sane and intelligent enough to go through the application process...

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

I'm still trying to figure out the "like cures like" logic....forget the dilution issue.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

The part that drives me nuts is they want us to believe not just one ludicrous claim; they want us to believe several (and forgive me if I have mentioned this before):

1. That like cures like - That a substance that causes headaches in a healthy person will also cure a headache!

2. That diluting something makes it stronger - contrary to every experience you have ever had!

3. That a solution diluted past Avogadro's limit will be somehow (the claims differ here) different than just plain solvent. - This is a more technical argument, but basically there are a certain number of molecules of active ingredient. If you dilute them past a certain point the chance that even one of the original molecules remains in the solution because less and less. At 30C the chance of a single original molecules remaining is astronomically small. Others believe the original molecules are gone but have had their properties "rubbed off" onto the remaining solvent (water).

4. That the solutions contain the "good aspects" of the original ingredients, but not the "bad aspects/side effects" - That somehow this magical process intuitively knows what is good and bad about a substance and systematically increases the good and removes the bad.

LLH

[Yahzi]

That the solutions contain the "good aspects" of the original ingredients, but not the "bad aspects/side effects"
This always bugs me too. How does that work? It can only help, never hurt? How does that match any natural process we have ever experienced?

[Pope130]

This always bugs me too. How does that work? It can only help, never hurt? How does that match any natural process we have ever experienced?
And: How does it "know" what is helpful or harmful? For example, if my boss (who suffers from high blood pressure) took a nostrum that lowered blood pressure she would be helped. On the other hand if I (who have low blood pressure) took it I would be harmed.

Enquiring minds want to know.
Robert

[Qureshi1_78]

Pope the point is that you want to understand things according to your own make up of mind. The man who was thinking ridicolous things three hundred years ago, now a routine matter in todays life. To understand something we must understand first

The observation and then the causes of observations. An observation is observed in patients when causticum in dribling of urine is given and the man got cured. How it was happend it is the second part. If the anser is not yet available then this does not mean that dribling of urine was not there.

[rjh01]

Most people who were thinking ridiculous things 300 years ago are now forgotten people. Just because there are a few exceptions does not mean that people who think ridiculous things now have any validity. This means that people who use such arguments are probably talking junk.

Remember the people you are posting to do tend to question things. You post rubbish and they will point out the rubbish. This is not NCH where such things are not allowed.

[rjh01]

Deleted. Double post