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View Full Version : Should this behavior be criminal?


renata
15th May 2003, 01:47 PM
Warning- this article and post contain information about an accused child molester, and reading it may be upsetting to some.














http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toes15may15002427,1,2785680.story?coll=la%2Dheadli nes%2Dcalifornia

In a trial that tests the definition of deviant behavior, the lawyer for a former Newport Beach youth recreational leader accused of molesting several preteen boys hopes to convince a jury that his client's behavior is not criminal, just strange.

Trenton Veches is charged with 25 felony counts of lewd acts with minors. Almost all the charges stem from incidents in which the 32-year-old after-school program supervisor sucked the toes of two dozen boys ages 8 to 11.

...

"This is a sex crime without sex," said lawyer John Dolan outside court. "It's weird, it's quirky, and in hindsight it's inappropriate, but it's not criminal, because it completely lacks in the element of sexual gratification."
....


According to the testimony of several alleged victims, Veches didn't fondle their sexual organs or hurt them.

...

But prosecutors portray Veches, who was arrested in April 2002, as a predatory child molester who abused his position and violated the children's trust. Deputy Dist. Atty. Sheila Hanson has argued that by videotaping the encounters and collecting child pornography, Veches has shown that his interest in the boys was indeed sexual.

Dolan maintains there is no connection between the child pornography and the behavior with boys, however bizarre. His client's methodically categorized collection of computer files and photographs of young boys in sexually explicit poses was kept far from his workplace, he said.

...




I am not sure I understand the defense's arguments. This guy
1. Posessed child pornography which is illegal anyway
2. Videotaped his encounters with the boys- why would he videotape it if it did not provide it with gratification?

And yet, I have kissed my nieces and nephews when they were babies on their tummies, on their feet, etc. I did it because they giggled at it, and because it was an expression of affection, so I understand the notion of wanting to hug and kiss and cuddle little kids. But in this case, these were older boys, and he was not family. I think it is all in the intent- and how can one prove it?

I am not sure how molestation is legally defined. However, sexual acts are not necessarily with the "defined" sex organs.

Thanz
15th May 2003, 01:59 PM
If the defence wants to claim that it was not sexual in nature, I would think that they would have to come up with something other than describing the behaviour as "It's weird, it's quirky, and in hindsight it's inappropriate". None of the explanation excludes sexual gratificication.

What possible reason could a 32 year old recreational director have for videotaping himself sucking the toes of 8 to 11 year olds? Don't tell me that it's just wierd or quirky or inappropriate (we know all that) what was his motive? The man collects child pornography. I would bet my last dollar that the man used the videotapes to masturbate. Does ANYONE think differently?

The worst part about the description by the lawyer is "in hindsight it's inappropriate". In hindsight? IN HINDSIGHT? Anyone who cannot see, beforehand, that videotaping yourself sucking the toes of children you are supposed to be supervising is "inappropriate" deserves to be locked up.

ZeeGerman
15th May 2003, 02:01 PM
Sounds like the guy is seriously wacko. Maybe he should be treated like that as well. Prison would be without use I guess, so therapy in confinement comes to mind. But something must be done. Otherwise he's a ticking bomb.

Zee

Dancing David
15th May 2003, 02:09 PM
Pretty wierd, he must have pled not guilty, in Illinois that would contitute child abuse, if you can prove he did it for sexual gratification.

Charles Livingston
15th May 2003, 02:15 PM
Well, even if its not considered (and I am by no means arguing it either way) molestation, the lawyer is claiming it is not criminal. Couldnt it at least be considered a form of assault/battery? I know I would press charges if someone sucked my toes without my permission (not that I want to discourage any special young ladies in my life from thinking outside the box a bit)

Jim_MDP
15th May 2003, 02:19 PM
Interviewing the boys will reveal if the intent was arousal on their part or his. If so, he's busted.

Weirdness, any way you slice it.

Mercutio
15th May 2003, 03:24 PM
Ok, just to play devil's advocate.

Suppose he gets absolutely no jollies from toe-sucking. (Nor do I, but that's a different matter) He does this purely for financial reasons, because he knows there is a market for fetish movies. Does this then fail to reach the standard of kiddie-porn? He himself is doing this for non-prurient reasons, therefore it is not technically porn. Which makes (arguably, and this is what I am asking, not a point I'm trying to make) the sale of said tape legal, since how could it be pornographic to one person and not to another? It would be more like the innocent baby-in-a-bath pictures newspapers and magazines will occasionally publish, and which will occasionally serve as masturbatory fodder for someone who loves children in a different way.

As for his collection of computer files...I would not want to defend this guy.

schplurg
15th May 2003, 04:23 PM
The question of whether he was gratified sexually should not even be considered. It is generally believed that most rapes are acts of violence, not sexual gratification. Who is to say what is gratifying to an individual?

"Yes officer, I raped her, but I absolutely did not enjoy it"
Rubbish!!!

I wonder if he is posting these tapes on a fetish website. If so, he is exploiting minors by selling these tapes, or charging for access to his website.

I wish I could view the entire article (I'm not registering to yet another news site). I'd like to know if:

- he was reported by one of the boys.
- he did it against the boys will (they're minors so should this matter?).
- how he used the tapes.

Personally I don't think any of those questions matter. He assaulted minors and should be in jail, at least (I'd like to beat the hell out of him, but oh well).

This is interesting though because it brings up the question of what constitutes a sexual crime. What gets one person "off" may not work for others. And as I already stated, rape is usually an act of violence. Maybe all sexual crimes should just be considered assault of varying degrees?

renata
15th May 2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by schplurg
I wish I could view the entire article (I'm not registering to yet another news site). I'd like to know if:

- he was reported by one of the boys.
- he did it against the boys will (they're minors so should this matter?).
- how he used the tapes.
[/B]

The article does not answer any of these questions- sorry.

schplurg
15th May 2003, 04:36 PM
Oh well :( Thanks for clarifying though.

The questions are moot to me anyways, except for maybe the sale of the tapes. As I said, gratification by the perpetrator is not a requirement for a sexual assault.

schplurg
15th May 2003, 05:03 PM
This actually reminds me of another one of our laws..."hate crimes".

If somebody beats up another person, that's assault. If the perpetrator uses a racial slur while beating this person, it is tagged as a "hate crime" and the punishment is much more severe.

So are we prosecuting people because of what they think? After all, being a bigot is not a crime. I'm wondering about the whole sexual assault thing now as well, since there are numerous opinions on what is considered sexual. Perhaps any assault that involves penetration should be considered a sex crime, while anything less should be considered assault and battery. Or should all violent acts be considered assault, period? This does not mean the punishments should be less severe of course.

I guess I'm playing Devil's advocate as well, as I have not put much thought into the subject until now. I know these ideas may be pretty "far out", so don't "hate" me (a crime?) or accuse me of not recognizing that rape is a terrible crime and that women are the majority of the victims. It seems like we only complicate things by creating these subcategories of assault. But then again, rape is an especially heinous crime.

arcticpenguin
15th May 2003, 05:10 PM
I dunno, is this really any stranger than, say, faking a game of chess?

I try to limit my foot fetish to consenting adults.

Tesserat
15th May 2003, 05:22 PM
The defense says it wasn't for sexual gratification. OK, why'd he do it then? Was it some sort of addiction? Does he just "like" it, but not sexually?
I think that one of the main points is that he had some sort of enjoyment of a minor's body, involving touching that would not be condoned by society or the children's parents.

Obsessive Toe sucking (and I think this qualifies as obsessive, if the guy does it a few times, and videotapes it), is a fetish behavior, and as such, sexual, even though there might not be explicit sexual contact.

I think that sensual contact with a minor is inappropriate, and can be considered a crime, if it is linked to fetish behavior.


(I don't think that occasional toe sucking is a fetish, btw)