Loose Change - Part II

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Here's some more dimension info http://www.757.org.uk/spec/spec1.html

[Kent1]

It's not twice as large, I don't think. It's about 20% larger than it should be.

1) Assuming the guy walking near the pickup is about 6' tall, then the estimate of 206 inches is reasonably close for the length of the truck.

2) I get the width of the fuselage to be about 85% of that of the truck. That would mean the fuselage is something like 175 inches wide. Given that it should be 148", that makes it 18% too wide.

Also, the plane is twisted slightly. Not that I'm sure it matters, but the distance to the left engine is slightly smaller than that to the right.

If you shrink the plane to the size it should be, the outer edges of the engines would be just inside the middle of where the engines are now.

If you look at the last photo killtown posted you can see where the wings hit

[aggle-rithm]

It's not twice as large, I don't think. It's about 20% larger than it should be.

1) Assuming the guy walking near the pickup is about 6' tall, then the estimate of 206 inches is reasonably close for the length of the truck.

2) I get the width of the fuselage to be about 85% of that of the truck. That would mean the fuselage is something like 175 inches wide. Given that it should be 148", that makes it 18% too wide.

Also, the plane is twisted slightly. Not that I'm sure it matters, but the distance to the left engine is slightly smaller than that to the right.

If you shrink the plane to the size it should be, the outer edges of the engines would be just inside the middle of where the engines are now.

Killtown makes a big deal about the fact that a 115 ton plane should have displaced more dirt than Flight 93 did. I've asked him to consider the fact that a completely compressed airliner would be much smaller than it was on takeoff, and that probably half its takeoff weight would be fuel.

We'll see how he responds.

[hurdygurdy]

We are all familiar with singers Glen Campbell, Celine Dion, and Anne Murray, which I believe are Canada's revenge against the United States for inflicting Jim Nabors on Canada. On the other hand, nobody seems to complain about Guy Lombardo.

I don't complain about Neil Young either!

Or about the Poppy Family :o

[Kent1]

Never in a million years would I have thought "RedPillNeo" had anything to do with the Matrix.

Huh. Learn something new every day.

ETA: I actually kind of liked RedPill. He was one of the few mods over there who seemed to be sensible and reasonably fair.

Acually at the Loose Change forums they stay somewhat civil as opposed to other sites.....http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=13965 (Beware it can get super vile!!)

[azazal]

Killtown makes a big deal about the fact that a 115 ton plane should have displaced more dirt than Flight 93 did. I've asked him to consider the fact that a completely compressed airliner would be much smaller than it was on takeoff, and that probably half its takeoff weight would be fuel.

We'll see how he responds.


I'll have to dig around in the books at home, but I have a few pics of WW 2 bombers, B-52s from Vietnam, etc, that nose dived into the ground. The craters and wreckage they left behind looks to be in line with what was left by flight 93

[Gravy]

I love it when the CTs get all discriminating.

"Hey, you no-planers are fools. Ha! Who would believe something as stupid as that? Now, controlled demolition on the other hand -- that's something I can really get behind."
I often get emails from "911 Truth Movement" people like that. "Great job on your debunk of 'Loose Change!' A few corrections, though: you omitted the fact that bin Laden died in Afghanistan iin 1988,, and that the WTC was destroyed by the Bush administration so the land can be used for oil exploration."

[dubfan]

Killtown makes a big deal about the fact that a 115 ton plane should have displaced more dirt than Flight 93 did. I've asked him to consider the fact that a completely compressed airliner would be much smaller than it was on takeoff, and that probably half its takeoff weight would be fuel.

We'll see how he responds.

I'm already in deep over there on the John O'Neill video, or I'd engage that one too.

But if you really want to leave a turd on the table, Google around for images of the American Eagle Flight 4184 crash, in Roselawn, IN, in 1994 (IIRC).

*and here is where I atone for so callously and casually invoking scenes of horrific death and destruction in the name of helping these idiots rise out of the cesspool of their own paranoid ignorance... I feel the need to do penance...and say 15 Delphi's Creeds:*

I believe in Bush the President, Leader of Texas and America, and in Dick Cheney, His evil partner conceived by the 9/11 tragedy, born of the spinmeister Rove, suffered under Osama Bin Laden was elected, stupid, and incompetent. The towers mysteriously fell; the third day He rose again to make a speech He ascended into The White House and sits at the right hand of Donald Rumsfeld, the Father Almighty From thence He will judge the living and the dead. I believe in the 9/11 missile attacks The planes not found The complicity of the CIA The free fall of the towers The destruction with explosives And the conspiracy everlasting Amen.

[Gravy]

It's like eating peanuts. I just can't stop myself.

Where did all the dirt go? (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6430)

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9933/92sim5dn.jpg
Gah. They're such...well, you know what they are. I can't wait for Steven Jones's paper, "Where, Indeed, Did All The Dirt Go?"

These people should work in orchards, because their cherry-picking skills are unmatched. That photo is a lot like the photos in "Loose Change" that show exactly...nothing. Have they really not seen other photos of the crash scene, like these:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904492f40fdaad2.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904492f3e8f3df3.jpg

And do they really not know how soft and deep the dirt was at that recently-reclaimed mine? And do they have any way of telling how much dirt was blasted over how large an area? And do they really not know that an airplane is mostly hollow?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904492f3e8da3da.jpg

And do they really not know that 95% of the plane was recovered on the scene, that the cockpit and flight data recorders were recovered and were usable, that the remains of every victim was identified, that personal effects of the victims, like the flight log book below, were found and returned to most familiies, that people still find small aircraft debris there, and that they are sad, desperate Loosers?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904492f3e91fb4e.jpg

[Sentinel]

Mayor Guliani: Operation Tri-pod schedualed for 9-12 ?


Or


Mass-USAR Tom Kenny : Arrived Monday night to get ready for tomorrow ?


How long is the Patriot act leg. that no one in congress read ?
How long did it take to right it (Proof read) then pass it during the middle of the night?

Canadians are nice its just the jerkoffs I have a problem with.

Of course as always, have a nice day

Sentinel

[Gravy]

Mayor Guliani: Operation Tri-pod schedualed for 9-12 ?
Or
Mass-USAR Tom Kenny : Arrived Monday night to get ready for tomorrow ?
How long is the Patriot act leg. that no one in congress read ?
How long did it take to right it (Proof read) then pass it during the middle of the night?
Canadians are nice its just the jerkoffs I have a problem with.
Of course as always, have a nice day
Sentinel
I took Sentinel off ignore so I could ask him what he does for a living. Sentinel, what do you do for a living? Does it require you to communicate with people intelligibly?

While I'm at it, I'll add that FEMA was not in NYC the night before 9/11, which you would know if you ever did any fact-checking. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29793

Sentinel, people here check things out. Maybe you should read the documents linked in my signature below. You make a fool of yourself with every post.

[Hutch]

Acually at the Loose Change forums they stay somewhat civil as opposed to other sites.....http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=13965 (Beware it can get super vile!!)

923 pages!!!! :jaw-dropp

Sorry, I already do not have a life between this place, BAUT, and LC...I am not killing another weekend catching up with that one--they physics folks are on their own.

[60hzxtl]

Mayor Guliani: Operation Tri-pod schedualed for 9-12 ?


Or


Mass-USAR Tom Kenny : Arrived Monday night to get ready for tomorrow ?



Sentinel


More wild bits from the ether.

Just because you have a fire truck does that mean that you will have a fire?

Drills go on all the time, again, you of all people should know that.

Practicing for what might happen is what fire departments, Coast Guardsmen, military, do all the time. To suggest that preparing for something yet to happen, and training for it is foreknowledge is just silly.

Let me simplify it -

Bad guys, from another part of the world, who are a small fraction of a people with a long history of resentment towards the west, a history longer than the history of the US, hijacked 4 planes on Sept. 11.

Two of those planes were deliberately flown - crashed into the WTC, resulting in instant death, and fires, in two building that were built just a little bit outside of the NYC firecode, because they got an exemption when built.

Those fires, caused the buildings that your firefigher brothers were in to collapse, and kill people in those buildings, and near those buildings. They died because of the dedication that have to their profession, Guys like Paddy Brown who had injured with him and would not leave them.

You might not want to accept it, but that is the simplification.

Are there coincidences? Sure. Do all the "dots" connect to something. Sometimes the answer is no.

See WTC collapse on video? Yup, sure looks like they knew it was going to come down? But you don't see 6 hours of video of nothing happening before hand, because that video wasn't saved. Only the collapse part is replayed. Imagine if you had to sit thru 5 hours of smoke pouring out of the building before it fell. When a train comes by, you remember the engine, and you remember the caboose, and forget all the cars in-between, but NOBODY forgets the train wreck.

The answers are there, you might not like them, and they can never be complete. But the answers are there.

[Sentinel]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

I also find it hard to believe that the pre-911 intel warning coming from other countries was ignored and we're supossed to believe it was just negligence.

The fact that its on video and audio where Tom Kenny stated that they were here on 9-10 to get ready for the tri-pod drill comfirmed by Mayor Guliani which by the way is also excluded testemony from the Commission/Ommision leaves clear evidence of a cover-up.


The fact that many firemen were excluding from testefying at the hearing is also suspicious.



Tell me, why would the so-called terrorist (flight 11) intent on "killing the infidels" fly right past Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant on the Hudson river to hit a piece of failing real estate?


If anyone knows the WTC complex here explain where the international flags that use to be posted in the lobbey went? Where did they go?


Why the delay on Intercept proceedures when the was no Voice contact from 0813Hrs?




Have a nice day



Sentinel

[milesalpha]

It's a trade-off. In addition to the things you've named, Canada inflicts Bryan Adams, Celine Dion, and Nickelback on the US; Britian gives us TV shows like Who Wants to Be a Millionaire and Big Brother; and both the Canadians and Brits export all their bad drivers to Florida.

Ok, how about you keep the above named, plus Alan Thicke and Pamela Anderson and we'll call it even. But you have to give back the friggin' cup if Carolina wins it.

[Sentinel]

The FBI Robert Muller stated there was no connection to the listed terrorist.
Stated they were using stolen IDs
The BBC stated the people on the Terrorist list have been comfirmed still alive.


Real muslims don't party in strip clubs and leave a mess of clues standing around.


This is a false flag operation.


have a good weekend



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

whos id did they show to board the planes?





Sentinel

[milesalpha]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

Sentinel

Well I'm pretty sure that even the Loosers would agree that he only had to fly it into a building once, instantaneous death would rule out doing it twice.

[MikeW]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly
How did they get their private and commercial pilots licences, then?

[Ducky]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

Well for one thing, they trained to fly - so they *could* fly. For another it wasn't just one terrorist flying a plane twice into a tower (an impossibility.) But most importantly, it's not too hard to hit the world's largest twin buildings when in a plane heading for them.

I also find it hard to believe that the pre-911 intel warning coming from other countries was ignored and we're supossed to believe it was just negligence.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

The fact that its on video and audio where Tom Kenny stated that they were here on 9-10 to get ready for the tri-pod drill comfirmed by Mayor Guliani which by the way is also excluded testemony from the Commission/Ommision leaves clear evidence of a cover-up.

how? What drill are you referring to, and what sources are you taking this information from?


The fact that many firemen were excluding from testefying at the hearing is also suspicious.

Which firemen were excluded? What is your source? Why do you need to interview every single fireman present at the scene? That's several thousand people.


Tell me, why would the so-called terrorist (flight 11) intent on "killing the infidels" fly right past Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant on the Hudson river to hit a piece of failing real estate?

For one the twin towers were in international symbol of western commerce, and secondly, they're a hell of a lot bigger than a nuclear power plant.


If anyone knows the WTC complex here explain where the international flags that use to be posted in the lobbey went? Where did they go?

Are you asking about the lobby of the WTC center *before* it was destroyed or after?


Why the delay on Intercept proceedures when the was no Voice contact from 0813Hrs?

You will have to be more specific. I don't understand what you're asking.




Have a nice day



Sentinel


:boggled:

[Ducky]

The FBI Robert Muller stated there was no connection to the listed terrorist.
Stated they were using stolen IDs
The BBC stated the people on the Terrorist list have been comfirmed still alive.


Real muslims don't party in strip clubs and leave a mess of clues standing around.


This is a false flag operation.


have a good weekend



Sentinel



I know plenty of muslims that go to strip clubs.

[MikeW]

The BBC stated the people on the Terrorist list have been comfirmed still alive.
Not a single person on the list has been confirmed "still alive". If they were, why did Saudi Arabia accept that all 15 of their citizens were involved in the attacks? It's perhaps time you stopped listening to people like David Ray Griffin: he's a propagandist, nothing more.

[Mr. Skinny]

IWe are all familiar with singers Glen Campbell, Celine Dion, and Anne Murray, which I believe are Canada's revenge against the United States for inflicting Jim Nabors on Canada. On the other hand, nobody seems to complain about Guy Lombardo.
I haven't seen anyone mention them yet, but I thank Canada for giving us Joni Mitchell, Ian Tyson, and Neil Young.

[JPK]

Is it just me or have the recent crop of CT'ers been even less capable of intelligent debate then the previous bunch? Greggy put these guys to shame.
JPK

[azazal]

I haven't seen anyone mention them yet, but I thank Canada for giving us Joni Mitchell, Ian Tyson, and Neil Young.

Don't forget Shania Twain

[azazal]

Real muslims don't party in strip clubs and leave a mess of clues standing around.

AHHHH, this was in the LC Pt 1 thread, need to dig it up. But to put it simply, Muslims are allowed to act like an infidel if in the end they are able to punish other infidels, or carry out the word of Allah.

[Gravy]

Can I make a suggestiion, Sentinel? Pick one question. Just one. Then let's have a discussion about that until it's resolved. Then we can move on to the next. That's reasonable, isn't it? This is a discussion board.

Can you do that? Please give it a try. Which issue would you like to DISCUSS? Just pick one.

Please reply.

[NobbyNobbs]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?




No. Do you?

[Pardalis]

Is it just me or have the recent crop of CT'ers been even less capable of intelligent debate then the previous bunch? Greggy put these guys to shame.
JPK

Yikes, major insult! :D

[Gravy]

AHHHH, this was in the LC Pt 1 thread, need to dig it up. But to put it simply, Muslims are allowed to act like an infidel if in the end they are able to punish other infidels, or carry out the word of Allah.
Here ya go. Thanks, Polaris.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1695687&postcount=2258

[azazal]

Here ya go. Thanks, Polaris.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1695687&postcount=2258

Gravy for the win. Thank you sir

[Sentinel]

Mayor Guliani stated during his testemoney (which was not listed in the book) but Which I have on video that they OEM and the Federal Governemnt were in preperation for the TRI-POD Drill which he stated was going to happen on the 12th aka the next day.


The BBC wrote an article where "it" stated that many of the hi-jackers on the list were still alive.


If they got dropper (the pilots) for not being able to fly C172s how were they able to fly boeing 767?


The head of the FBI Robert Muller stated there is no connection leading "him" to believe that the listed hi-jackers were connected to 9-11.



Since there are no pilots in this forum I understand your incapablility to answer the question on flying into buildings.



Heres another for the non-pilots....


What happens when you suddenly drop from 35.000ft while the air cabin is pressurized?


You skeptics kill me.


Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Dropped not dropper





Sentinel

[Pardalis]

testemoney?

[Sentinel]

lgf; Happy thanksgiving, LGF Style

Shiplord Kirel 11-27-2003 01:02PM PST



Our old freind the banned moonbat "Dylan Avery", is back on NaziMedia to denounce this very string:


Charles Johnson just thought he would get in the true spirit of Thanksgiving by giving thanks to the genocidal American soloders (sic) in Iraq, way to be in the spirit Charles.

Quite discusting really but still, thats is the TRUE spirit of thanksgiving.....
Centuries ago the Natives were exterminated almost completely, I'm sure charles ancestor had a hand in this and today evil-doers across America give thanks to a new breed of genocide Iraqi Occupation.


End Quote


Why through out the whole time this guy posted this crap on the LGF boards is there no mention of LC or James gandolfinni?




Sentinel

[Ducky]

Mayor Guliani stated during his testemoney (which was not listed in the book) but Which I have on video that they OEM and the Federal Governemnt were in preperation for the TRI-POD Drill which he stated was going to happen on the 12th aka the next day.

What video is this, and can you please give us a link to review?


The BBC wrote an article where "it" stated that many of the hi-jackers on the list were still alive.

Cite your source please.


If they got dropper (the pilots) for not being able to fly C172s how were they able to fly boeing 767?

Cite your source please.


The head of the FBI Robert Muller stated there is no connection leading "him" to believe that the listed hi-jackers were connected to 9-11.

Why is "him" in quotes? Do you doubt Robert Muller exists? Also please cite your source.



Since there are no pilots in this forum I understand your incapablility to answer the question on flying into buildings.

I did answer it. you ignored that.



Heres another for the non-pilots....


What happens when you suddenly drop from 35.000ft while the air cabin is pressurized?

Depending on the plane, nothing. Cabin pressure is controlled automatically based on altitude. Here's a few links:

http://www.liebherr.com/ae/en/26401.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Control_System



You skeptics kill me.


Sentinel


:rolleyes:

[Stellafane]

...Greggy put these guys to shame...

Can you even believe you'd ever write such a sentence, never mind it actually being true??

[60hzxtl]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

I also find it hard to believe that the pre-911 intel warning coming from other countries was ignored and we're supossed to believe it was just negligence.

The fact that its on video and audio where Tom Kenny stated that they were here on 9-10 to get ready for the tri-pod drill comfirmed by Mayor Guliani which by the way is also excluded testemony from the Commission/Ommision leaves clear evidence of a cover-up.

The fact that many firemen were excluding from testefying at the hearing is also suspicious.

Tell me, why would the so-called terrorist (flight 11) intent on "killing the infidels" fly right past Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant on the Hudson river to hit a piece of failing real estate?

If anyone knows the WTC complex here explain where the international flags that use to be posted in the lobbey went? Where did they go?

Why the delay on Intercept proceedures when the was no Voice contact from 0813Hrs?

Have a nice day

Sentinel

One by one.

1.) I know some great drivers - driving for years without an accident, they are from places like Ohio, and Indiana - one is even a rally driver - they can't parallel park to save their lives. NYC traffic freaks one of them.

They only had to fly the plane once -- no landing, no take off. What is the worst that could happen? They crashed them before they crashed them?

Follow the Hudson River south and where to you get to? WTC 1 & 2.

2.) Specific? or just another warning? We get warnings all the time. We don't stop the world and cower in the basement.

3.) A side note. Not proven to be relevant. Not a cover up or even on omissions What did Rudy have for breakfast? Surely he had it, but if its not relevant, why bother?

4.) It was not their target. WTC was. They followed their orders, not, 'Hey, Mohammed, lets see if you can hit that bridge over there.' They also bypassed West Point, Trump Tower, The GW Bridge, and shrugged off the Statue of Liberty. They were there to finish the job begun when the WTC was BOMBED with a BOMB in '93.

5.) Maybe what they had to say was redundant. Editing is not censoring, not silencing, not covering up. It's just editing.

6.) I bet what was left of them went to Great Kills, if they were not burned. (unless you thought they could survive when metal was 'molten"

7.) What would be the procedure in a situation that is developing? Scramble the fighters and shoot down every plane in the sky, just to be sure? Want to give that order.

You might wonder why we bother over here. I never, ever, want to let some terrorist, caught, and on trial, use our system of justice, and this conspiracy crap to get off the hook, because some juror, heard this crap, and remembered it.

Your brothers died in a collapse, caused by a fire, in a building that was not built to NYC firecode, that had a plane deliberately rammed into it, by people who hate you, and your success, and your life. Stop dancing on their grave, chasing shadows and boogie men. Your brothers in Vulcan deserve better than that.

Want to do your brothers a service - see that no building is ever built outside of code again. That code is written in blood - don't build outside of code, and expect firefighters to go into a building like that again. Never again.

[JamesB]

Mayor Guliani stated during his testemoney (which was not listed in the book) but Which I have on video that they OEM and the Federal Governemnt were in preperation for the TRI-POD Drill which he stated was going to happen on the 12th aka the next day.
This is what is called an "unexplained sinister assertion". You list an event that sounds ominous, without making an actual argument as to its relevence, and then demand that someone explain it.

The BBC wrote an article where "it" stated that many of the hi-jackers on the list were still alive.
This was written only a few weeks after the hijacking. If you do some research beyond late September 2001 you will find that all these "hijackers" were explained by mistaken identities with people who had the same name. Do you think every Arab in the world has a completely unique name? Not a single one of these "hijackers" has shown up in public, not on Al Jazeera, CNN, or even Air America. If they are supposedly alive, please explain that.

If they got dropper (the pilots) for not being able to fly C172s how were they able to fly boeing 767?
They were all licensed pilots with hundreds of hours of flight time. The guy who refused to let Hani Hanjour rent the Cessna even himself said he thought it would be easy for him to steer a Boeing into the Pentagon. Why do you conspiracy theorists avoid mentioning that?

The head of the FBI Robert Muller stated there is no connection leading "him" to believe that the listed hi-jackers were connected to 9-11.
That was one quote from September of 2001, nearly 5 years have passed, much has been learned since, why do you act like it hasn't?

What happens when you suddenly drop from 35.000ft while the air cabin is pressurized?
Your ears pop. Next question...

[60hzxtl]

Heres another for the non-pilots....


What happens when you suddenly drop from 35.000ft while the air cabin is pressurized?


Sentinel


Your ears pop.

edited Dang! you're fast!

[Stellafane]

testemoney?

A term used to describe the cost of Viagra.

[azazal]

Since there are no pilots in this forum I understand your incapablility to answer the question on flying into buildings.


I will admit I AM NOT A PILOT, however, my father used to own and fly an old Piper Tri-Pacer. Nice little plane, anyhow. I would go along with him on many a flight. He would handle the take-offs and landings. Guess what, when cruising, guess who got to fly, yeap me, all at an age of 12. Kind of sounds familiar doesn’t it? Atta and crew focused on flying, not take offs and landing, go figure. Once in the air, keeping a plane airborne on the right course is damn easy. Dad would give me the compass heading, I would turn to that heading and keep it steady, went to many an airfield that way. Flash forward 20 years, add in hand held GPS and guess how easy it is to guide a plan now. But since you're not a pilot, I understand you inability to understand how easy it is to fly a plane when some one else handles the take-off.

[60hzxtl]

Is it just me or have the recent crop of CT'ers been even less capable of intelligent debate then the previous bunch? Greggy put these guys to shame.
JPK


Hey! I want a patch, or a cookie, or first pick of the litter or something - it was my post that shut him up!

(Not like I want him back. . . )

[Pardalis]

Why don't you ask real pilots then Sentinel, if you really want a answer to your question?

[Stellafane]

I will admit I AM NOT A PILOT, however, my father used to own and fly an old Piper Tri-Pacer. Nice little plane, anyhow. I would go along with him on many a flight. He would handle the take-offs and landings. Guess what, when cruising, guess who got to fly, yeap me, all at an age of 12. Kind of sounds familiar doesn’t it? Atta and crew focused on flying, not take offs and landing, go figure. Once in the air, keeping a plane airborne on the right course is damn easy. Dad would give me the compass heading, I would turn to that heading and keep it steady, went to many an airfield that way. Flash forward 20 years, add in hand held GPS and guess how easy it is to guide a plan now. But since you're not a pilot, I understand you inability to understand how easy it is to fly a plane when some one else handles the take-off.

My dad was a pilot too, and sometimes let me fly the plane. Another time when I was in my teens a pilot buddy of mine let me fly his plane, and just by following the roads I managed to find my own house, a tiny two-story home in a suburban neighborhood -- no flying experience, no lessons, no nada. If it had been the WTC, which on a clear day you could see 100 miles away, I'd have had no problem slamming the plane into it, were I so included. The only difference here is size of plane. Give me even a modicum of training, and I bet it would have been a piece of cake.

[dubfan]

A term used to describe the cost of Viagra.

This deserves either a *groan* or a :D , I'm not exactly sure which.

;)

[JPK]

Can you even believe you'd ever write such a sentence, never mind it actually being true?? It is really very sad. Reading these threads reminds me of a game called Whack A Mole. They have this at arcades. A stuffed mole keeps popping up out of differant holes and you have to knock them on the head with a hammer. There is no end to it. CT'ers keep popping and making the same tired claims. Someone points out the error of their ways. The CT'er just makes another tired claim. Blather, rinse and repeat. Eventually that CT'er stomps off or commits suicide by mod. Before you know it, another popps up and makes exactly the same tired claim.
JPK

[60hzxtl]

and just by following the roads I managed to find my own house,


Known as an IFR pilot.

I follow roads.

I knew a guy like that who used a Gulf Road Map to navigate. It was great til it blew out the window one day.

I only took his planes one way - up to 7200'.

[Pardalis]

Even BIRDS can fly, it can't be THAT hard!

[JPK]

Even BIRDS can fly, it can't be THAT hard!
I'm going to have to look for a cite, but I believe I read a report that showed that even birds tend to follow roads when they fly.
JPK

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm going to have to look for a cite, but I believe I read a report that showed that even birds tend to follow roads when they fly.
JPK

It was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3460977.stm One if first came out I remember looking at the map and the flight paths overlaid.

ETA: here we go http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/05/npige05.xml&sSheet=/portal

[JPK]

Thanks Arkan_Wolfshade for doing my homework for me.
JPK

[Mr. Skinny]

Know as an IFR pilot.


Wouldn't that be VFR (visual rather than instrument)?

[NobbyNobbs]

Even BIRDS can fly, it can't be THAT hard!


THAT'S IT!! It wasn't a plane, or a missile, or a drone. It was a giant, mutated, New York pigeon! Those damn genetic scientists.....

[Pardalis]

THAT'S IT!! It wasn't a plane, or a missile, or a drone. It was a giant, mutated, New York pigeon! Those damn genetic scientists.....

Or four suicidal albatross.

[brodski]

THAT'S IT!! It wasn't a plane, or a missile, or a drone. It was a giant, mutated, New York pigeon! Those damn genetic scientists.....
Don't be silly,
it wasn't a BIRD,
it wasn't a PLANE it was ..
SUPERMAN! :p

[JPK]

Don't be silly,
it wasn't a BIRD,
it wasn't a PLANE it was ..
SUPERMAN! :p

I was going to guess Underdog.
JPK

[brodski]

I was going to guess Underdog.
JPK I can edit it if you like. ;)

Happy Birthday.

[60hzxtl]

Wouldn't that be VFR (visual rather than instrument)?


Of course -
Ooops, forgot the sarcasm marquee and flashing lights

[dubfan]

923 pages!!!! :jaw-dropp


Wow, there really is nothing new under the sun. Interesting to see the same debate raging on different intellectual levels within different specializations -- over there they're deep into eutectic reactions :eye-poppi

It's getting pretty vicious, too. Lots of [rule8] and booted socks floating around like tumbleweeds.

*goes for popcorn*

Heads up/prediction: the next CT battleground will be sulfidation of the WTC steel.

[JPK]

I can edit it if you like. ;)

Happy Birthday.
No need to edit and thanks for the B-day greetings.
JPK

[Johnny Pixels]

I think I may have already pointed this out to death, but just for the record, I have landed a proper Boeing 777 simulator. It really is not that hard to fly, it's even easier to crash into things. Once the plane is airbourne, the only controls you need to use are the stick, which is a giant thing in front of you, and the throttle, which is a giant thing to your left hand side. You can pretty much ignore the rudder pedals because you don't have to fly the plane smoothly or with any kind of balance. It honestly is no different to playing Microsoft flight simulator, which was the only "training" I had before I got to play in the real thing.

The hardest part of 9/11 would be the descending turn to the Pentagon, but only because the Pentagon is on the ground and harder to pick out than the WTC towers.

[MarkyX]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/index_np.html

A real pilot says YOU ARE WRONG

[aggle-rithm]

I think I may have already pointed this out to death, but just for the record, I have landed a proper Boeing 777 simulator. It really is not that hard to fly, it's even easier to crash into things. Once the plane is airbourne, the only controls you need to use are the stick, which is a giant thing in front of you, and the throttle, which is a giant thing to your left hand side. You can pretty much ignore the rudder pedals because you don't have to fly the plane smoothly or with any kind of balance. It honestly is no different to playing Microsoft flight simulator, which was the only "training" I had before I got to play in the real thing.

The hardest part of 9/11 would be the descending turn to the Pentagon, but only because the Pentagon is on the ground and harder to pick out than the WTC towers.

I think takeoff and landing are the really tricky parts. My wife got time in a flight simulator as a birthday present -- her father works for the FAA and pulled some strings.

She crashed the plane just trying to taxi into position. It's deceptively difficult.

[MarkyX]

I know plenty of muslims that go to strip clubs.

I know muslims who get LAID

that sounds so wrong

[MarkyX]

I guess thats why your country got flipped so easily.


Now our awol guys will be truned over much quicker,



Thanks canada




Sentinel

Unlike you guys (or spain and england), we actually caught our terrorists.

[Mr. Skinny]

Of course -
Ooops, forgot the sarcasm marquee and flashing lights
Sorry 60hz, didn't have my sarcasm hat on. Went back an re-read it. Now I get it. Doh!

[Johnny Pixels]

I think takeoff and landing are the really tricky parts. My wife got time in a flight simulator as a birthday present -- her father works for the FAA and pulled some strings.

She crashed the plane just trying to taxi into position. It's deceptively difficult.

I know a guy who works for a company that makes them. The one I played on was a couple of days away from being boxed up and shipped to Singapore. But the real fun part was walking past the top secret military projects I wasn't allowed to see, and were all surrounded by large boards. You could just see the top of the cockpits, and one was definitely a Harrier, and I would've killed for a go on that one.

The tricky parts of flying are the "transitional" phases. Switching the engines on would be a nightmare, I have no idea of where to start for the ignition sequence, driving to from the runway to the gate, because you can't see where the nose wheel is, getting airbourne, because if you pull up too early you stall, and end up running out of runway, landing, because the ground moves very quickly towards you at 180 mph.

Crashing into things is very easy and very much a case of pointing the nose where you want to hit, and opening the throttle. Many CTs seem to think this is difficult for some reason. You just avoid the green stuff below you, and don't worry too much about overstressing the aircraft, because you're going to destroy it anyway.

[Psiload]

Real muslims don't party in strip clubs and leave a mess of clues standing around.

Obviously you've never been to some of the more popular "gentleman's clubs" in Montreal.

Cripes... I've seen Amish dudes getting their freak on in those joints.

[dubfan]

Crashing into things is very easy and very much a case of pointing the nose where you want to hit, and opening the throttle. Many CTs seem to think this is difficult for some reason. You just avoid the green stuff below you, and don't worry too much about overstressing the aircraft, because you're going to destroy it anyway.

...not to mention I think most of the flight control laws built-in to the control systems will prevent that anyway, or at least unleash bitchin betty on you if you get too close to the edge of the envelope.

[aggle-rithm]

Obviously you've never been to some of the more popular "gentleman's clubs" in Montreal.

Cripes... I've seen Amish dudes getting their freak on in those joints.

<shudder!>

[aggle-rithm]

I'm afraid I struck a nerve with this post: (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5618&st=90
)


I'm glad you brought this up, because it's a topic we discuss over at JREF quite a bit. Why would someone WANT to believe in something that is unpleasant and for which there is no good evidence, such as evil spirits, eternal damnation, or convoluted conspiracy theories?

Actually, WANT is not a good word; a better one is NEED. They NEED to believe in something, even if it's something that's not all peaches and cream.

I can't read your mind, of course, but I would guess that the belief that the government is in total control -- for better or for worse -- is more palatable to you than the idea that a small group of people can wreak such havoc on such a large scale. It seems too random, too pointless. It lacks meaning and purpose, something we all crave.

To put it simply, when offered the choice between an evil, monolithic government with secret agendas, and a shadowy, unpredictable terrorist organization with bewilderingly puzzling motivations, you choose what you perceive as the lesser of two evils. As a bonus, you get to belong to a group with similar views, and all of you can get together and bitch about the government to your heart's content.

I understand this completely, and I won't condemn anyone for falling into this mode of thinking. It's very human of you. It's not for me, though.

Perhaps I was a little condescending...oh, well. No givesies backsies.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/misc/backlink.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1708365#post1708365):
We are all familiar with singers Glen Campbell, Celine Dion, and Anne Murray, which I believe are Canada's revenge against the United States for inflicting Jim Nabors on Canada. On the other hand, nobody seems to complain about Guy Lombardo.




I don't complain about Neil Young either!

Or about the Poppy Family :o
And one of the greatest singer/songwriters that the World has ever known, Canada gave us Gord Lightfoot, which almost makes up for Celinne Dion and the Poppy family...
"The Space Shuttle ends where the Subway begins...There are too many clues in this room."

[Mr. Skinny]

I think takeoff and landing are the really tricky parts. My wife got time in a flight simulator as a birthday present -- her father works for the FAA and pulled some strings.

She crashed the plane just trying to taxi into position. It's deceptively difficult.
I got to fly an F-16 simulator at work years ago. Taxied and took off fine. Got up to about 300 kts. and was shot down by a bogie that I never saw coming. Quite embarrasing.

[steve s]

Real muslims don't party in strip clubs

They do if they know they only have a few days left to live. That's like saying "Real priests don't molest kids." It happens.

Steve S.

[rwguinn]

Snip non-sequeters and strawmen


Since there are no pilots in this forum I understand your incapablility to answer the question on flying into buildings.



Heres another for the non-pilots....


What happens when you suddenly drop from 35.000ft while the air cabin is pressurized?


You skeptics kill me.


Sentinel
1. Why do you assume there are no pilots here? I was, until money ran out and family obligations interviened. Have taxied, take-off, flown, and landed single engine light aircraft and sailplanes, flown a DC-3, and have 20 minutes in a B-25. Flying is no problem. Landing is no real problem. Most people Solo within the first 15 hours. It doesn't take a lot of flight time to become a pilot.

2. Dropping from 35000 feet with the cabin pressureized? No problem cabin pressure is maintained at about 7000' MSL most of the time anyway. No big deal--There isn't that much volume, and the cabin structure will withstand a lot more pressure differential than you can imagine.

Why do I keep thinking "Box of Rocks" when I read these guys???

[steve s]

I just posted this over at the LC site in response to someone's comment that the Pennsylvania crash site looked like something out of a James Bond movie.

I wrote:
(Note: I posted the actual pictures over there. Because of copyright rules here, I just posted the links.)


I'd say it looks a helluva lot like these other crash sites. And would you take the time to point out to me where the outlines of the wings are. Or even the engines for that matter.

American Eagle Flight 4184, Roselawn Indiana, Oct. 31,94
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Eagle_4184_crashsite.jpg

USAir Boeing 737 flight 427, Aliquippa, Pennsylvania Sept. 8th, 1994
http://www.sptimes.com/28-seconds/graphics-day1/impact.jpg

Bellview Airlines 737, Lagos Nigeria, Oct. 22. 1994
http://www.1001crash.com/latest/2005/Bellview_B737_im1.jpg

Turkish Airlines DC-10, Ermenonville, France, March 3, 1974
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w740303.htm

Euro Asian Aviation, Baucau, East Timor, January 31, 2003
http://www.1001crash.com/latest/2003/EAA_IL76_im1.jpg

TANS Cerro Coloque, Peru, January 9, 2003
http://www.1001crash.com/latest/2003/TANS_F28_im2.jpg

Value Jet, Miami Floida, May 11, 1996
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w960511.htm

Steve S.


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5618&st=120


Waiting for my inevitable bannishment.:rolleyes:

Steve S

[tsig]

I just posted this over at the LC site in response to someone's comment that the Pennsylvania crash site looked like something out of a James Bond movie.

I wrote:
(Note: I posted the actual pictures over there. Because of copyright rules here, I just posted the links.)

Some of the links aren't going through. I'll try to find alternate pics.


Waiting for my inevitable bannishment.:rolleyes:

Steve S
the whole LC thread seems ninja

I would like to sign up for the JREF nija wave.

belief is blind by definition.

can I be the tactician?

[steve s]

the whole LC thread seems ninja

I would like to sign up for the JREF nija wave.


Are you sure? The LC site is a world where even the laws of physics don't apply. Enter at your own risk.

Steve S.

[steve s]

I saw a documentary on the History Channel this evening about the construction of the Sears tower. They left out the part where the thermite and C4 were built into the structure.

Steve S.

[bob_kark]

All this stupidity is making my head hurt!!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6377

Make it stop!!

[Class]

From that thread: And both buildings (add one more in that number) fell down in the form of a PERFECT (world-class exampled) controlled demolition.
The collapse of the World Trade Center towers sent debris everywhere from the top of the building, as evident by this photograph.
achteeteepeeslashslash.thebiggestsecretpict.online .fr/nwo/wtc_collapse.jpg

The spread of debris caused millions of dollars in damage to all neighboring buildings, and even resulted the collapse of another building.

If the WTC collapses were indeed controlled demolition, it was downright sloppy work. I don't know how anyone can see it as being a 'perfect' controlled demolition (or a controlled demolition at all).

[WildCat]

Don't be silly,
it wasn't a BIRD,
it wasn't a PLANE it was ..
SUPERMAN! :p
No, it was Soxman!

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/Soxman.jpg

[chipmunk stew]

No, it was Soxman!

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/Soxman.jpg Our secret weapon!

Does your primary mission make more sense now, bob_kark?

[RandFan]

From that thread:
The collapse of the World Trade Center towers sent debris everywhere from the top of the building, as evident by this photograph.
achteeteepeeslashslash.thebiggestsecretpict.online .fr/nwo/wtc_collapse.jpg

The spread of debris caused millions of dollars in damage to all neighboring buildings, and even resulted the collapse of another building.

If the WTC collapses were indeed controlled demolition, it was downright sloppy work. I don't know how anyone can see it as being a 'perfect' controlled demolition (or a controlled demolition at all). I can't get your link to work. Even when I remove the extra space.

[Class]

Oops, remove that dot between slashslash and thebiggestsecret

[Shrinker]

From that thread:
The collapse of the World Trade Center towers sent debris everywhere from the top of the building, as evident by this photograph.
http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/wtc_collapse.jpg

The spread of debris caused millions of dollars in damage to all neighboring buildings, and even resulted the collapse of another building.

If the WTC collapses were indeed controlled demolition, it was downright sloppy work. I don't know how anyone can see it as being a 'perfect' controlled demolition (or a controlled demolition at all).
Fixed the link for RandFan

[RandFan]

Fixed the link for RandFan Thanks Shrinker and Class.

Can't you guys see that the building is falling faster than free fall? Hell, can't you see that the free falling debris is falling faster than that?

[RandFan]

Oops, remove that dot between slashslash and thebiggestsecret "achteeteepeeslashslash" = http://, got it.

[Shrinker]

Thanks Shrinker and Class.

Can't you guys see that the building is falling faster than free fall? Hell, can't you see that the free falling debris is falling faster than that?

Looks like a bomb in the basement to me. No really, they could have moved the basement to the 80th floor during the powerdowns.

[valis]

"Antelope Drive 1/128 Mile" ??

Sorry to be a "Spoilsport" but it should be Antelope Freeway. It's right after the Shadow Valley Condoms, if you lived there you'd be home by now.

[valis]

OMG, what a great letter! "We're investigating 9-11 and were wondering if you'd care to admit that you made modifications to certain aircraft that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people. Oh, and by the way do you know what happened to the 'decoys'?"

But now they can say 'Cascade Aerospace refused to deny.....'

By the way I noticed they have a Valis over there as well. No relation. The name Valis is both the title of a novel and the name of an anime character. I do NOT belive the iridiaum sattalite network is being used to detonate aircraft or whatever that guy is trying to say. I guess I will have to wait for his 'peer reviewed 911 journal'. With peers like that it should be quite a journal.

[valis]

I have a hard time believing that the SO-CALLED TERRORIST who couldn't fly could have piloted a boeing 767 into a building twice. Thats like finding a needle in a haystack twice. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that?

But that isn't the case. There were four planes and only two directly hit their targets.

[valis]

I haven't seen anyone mention them yet, but I thank Canada for giving us Joni Mitchell, Ian Tyson, and Neil Young.

I'd rather keep Alainis Morisette (sp?) and Gordon Lightfoot and send back Mr. Young and Ms. Mitchell. (Perhaps a big yellow taxi could pick her up).

[delphi_ote]

I'd rather keep Alainis Morisette (sp?) and Gordon Lightfoot and send back Mr. Young and Ms. Mitchell. (Perhaps a big yellow taxi could pick her up).
Keep Gordon Lightfoot? Can we send you back?

[valis]

Keep Gordon Lightfoot? Can we send you back?

No you may not, I for one am smart enough not to leave Central Florida.

[Obviousman]

Heheheeh - because they were dissing JREF so badly over in ScrewLoose, I joined up!

They are good for something after all!

[MarkyX]

I love how they say it goes perfectly into their own footprint when not a single WTC (besides the rebuilt WTC7) is not standing today because of 9/11.

EDIT: Now they are accusing CDI, guys who have been doing buildings for decades and are literally the best in the world. This is funny. Every structual engineer knew the building was going to come down, but they were really surprised how long for the buildings to collapse because they were so well built.

[bob_kark]

No, it was Soxman!

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/Soxman.jpg

Where did you get my picture?!

[bob_kark]

Heheheeh - because they were dissing JREF so badly over in ScrewLoose, I joined up!

They are good for something after all!

Welcome to the forum!

[kookbreaker]

Heheheeh - because they were dissing JREF so badly over in ScrewLoose, I joined up!

They are good for something after all!

Hey! Welcome Obviousman!

[60hzxtl]

I love how they say it goes perfectly into their own footprint when not a single WTC (besides the rebuilt WTC7) is not standing today because of 9/11.

EDIT: Now they are accusing CDI, guys who have been doing buildings for decades and are literally the best in the world. This is funny. Every structual engineer knew the building was going to come down, but they were really surprised how long for the buildings to collapse because they were so well built.


Once again, because they have no scale or concept of the WTC, they were never there.

Manhattan is build cheek and jowl, 1880's buildings line up right next to skyscrapers, not much real estate is wasted in this town.

But the WTC, was built in a huge plaza, it was not even close to the sidewalk, except on West Street, by the river. That offset gave the illusion that they were not as big as they were until you were right on them. The plazas around them were kind of useless, too cold and windy in the winter to walk through, and too hot and unsheltered in the summer. Concerts held there were an acoustical nightmare.

Remember that when you see photos - you had to be quite a ways back to get the whole thing in.

Yet debris hit the Verizon Bldg, (to the North). The Deutsche Bank (Formerly Bankers Trust) to the South, Flattened a small Greek orthodox church (St. Nicholas ) built in a 19th century building even further south, The World Financial Center, (to the West.) To the East, things were not so bad, St. Paul's Chapel - an 18th century building - escaped with the loss of a single tree. Fell in the footprint? Not even if you were wearing snowshoes!

And WTC 7? Why no views south looking North? Because the FDNY needed that path to get in and out of #7, and knew that when it came down, it had only one place to go - # 7 was built close to other buildings. Vessey Street was also full of fallen WTC #1 pieces. And airplane parts. small ones. The ones the MIB fairies sprinkled around.

"Pull it" ??? Here's another clue kidz - the FDNY fights fires from the INSIDE. The fire department in your town probably fights them by squirting water from the outside. "Pull it"? Yeah, pull the guys who are inside out, because this building with the chunk out of it, the raging fire inside, and the buckling and groaning sounds, is not worth one more life, it's condemned anyway.


Context is everything in history. The scientists & engineers here can add to that.

[Gravy]

But that isn't the case. There were four planes and only two directly hit their targets.
Ha! Proof that you're the "other" Valis. Somebody, grab him!

[pgwenthold]

And both buildings (add one more in that number) fell down in the form of a PERFECT (world-class exampled) controlled demolition.

From that thread:
The collapse of the World Trade Center towers sent debris everywhere from the top of the building, as evident by this photograph.
achteeteepeeslashslash.thebiggestsecretpict.online .fr/nwo/wtc_collapse.jpg

The spread of debris caused millions of dollars in damage to all neighboring buildings, and even resulted the collapse of another building.

If the WTC collapses were indeed controlled demolition, it was downright sloppy work. I don't know how anyone can see it as being a 'perfect' controlled demolition (or a controlled demolition at all).

This stuff is SOOOOO Loose Change - Part I material, and was completely discredited back then.

The only resemblence between the falling of WTC 1 and 2 and a "controlled demolition" is that buildings fell down. Outside of that, the falling of the big WTC look nothing like any controlled demolition that has ever been carried out.

Dr Adequate posted a link that had something like 20 of the biggest CDs of all-time. Not a single one fell like the WTC towers. Even geggy admitted that it didn't look like a controlled demolition (of course, he took the next leap to conclude that it must have been a heretofore never used CD approach).

The best evidence that the WTC towers did not fall by controlled demolition is that they DON'T LOOK LIKE THEY DID!

WTC7 looks much more CD like, but that's because the building failure occurs over a much larger vertical range (proportionately, at least). However, the only video I have actually seen focuses mostly on the bottom half of the building, so you can't see the whole building at once. Moreover, that collapse has other problems of its own (it's a completely nonsensical CD if it was; requires the masterminds who planned the whole deal to be complete idiots)

[Gravy]

This stuff is SOOOOO Loose Change - Part I material, and was completely discredited back then.
You're forgetting that it was disguised to not look like a CD.

Oh, wait. That means it didn't look like a CD. But of course it did. So, I think it was disguised, but the disguise wasn't perfect, so it looks like a disguised CD. geggy told me so.

[Johnny Pixels]

But that isn't the case. There were four planes and only two directly hit their targets.

Finding a needle in a haystack is easy. Finding a piece of straw in a haystack is hard.

[Shrinker]

Remember that when you see photos - you had to be quite a ways back to get the whole thing in.

Good post 60thingy. If like me you never saw them in real life, this photo helps...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=3926460&postcount=118

You might also want to browse the entire thread, there are some amazing photos of the site there. If you like tall buildings it might bring a tear to your eye...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=56090&page=1&pp=20

(Catch it while you can, the hotlinks are slowly breaking)

[pgwenthold]

You're forgetting that it was disguised to not look like a CD.

Oh, wait. That means it didn't look like a CD. But of course it did. So, I think it was disguised, but the disguise wasn't perfect, so it looks like a disguised CD. geggy told me so.

As I said, the fact that it didn't look like CD means that it was a different kind of CD, unlike any CD ever done before.

That's what geggy said.

[60hzxtl]

Good post 60thingy. If like me you never saw them in real life, this photo helps...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=3926460&postcount=118

You might also want to browse the entire thread, there are some amazing photos of the site there. If you like tall buildings it might bring a tear to your eye...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=56090&page=1&pp=20

(Catch it while you can, the hotlinks are slowly breaking)



Thanks for the kind words, Note well that so many of the images there are taken from a distance - quite a few taken from New Jersey - just to get an idea of the scale.

This,

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=155927

gives you an idea of the size of the plazas - and the space between buildings.

A long time ago I worked in WTC 1, on the 74th floor, North side. I could not have told you where the fire stairs were. (summer job, I had other things on my mind. . .)


Also if you were never there, you would not grasp the depth of the foundation of the building, going deep into the Path train station, many, many stories below. Much of the debris fell down, filling that void, and gives a false impression, of where did all the stuff go.

[JPK]

Finding a needle in a haystack is easy. Finding a piece of straw in a haystack is hard.
I think it was Sherlock Homes who said, "The best place to hide a needle is not in a haystack, but amongst other needles."
JPK

[CptColumbo]

You Canucks can keep Alanis and Young, but you have to take back Anne Murray, Paul Schaeffer, and Celine Dion. We keep Shatner, Kidder, Michael J. Fox, and a celebrity to be named later.

[Apollyon]

You Canucks can keep Alanis and Young, but you have to take back Anne Murray, Paul Schaeffer, and Celine Dion. We keep Shatner, Kidder, Michael J. Fox, and a celebrity to be named later.
As a bonus can we send them the Baldwin brothers, or at least Alec Baldwin? If it's only Alec they'll have to take Robert Altman as well though.

[bob_kark]

You Canucks can keep Alanis and Young, but you have to take back Anne Murray, Paul Schaeffer, and Celine Dion. We keep Shatner, Kidder, Michael J. Fox, and a celebrity to be named later.

Martin Short? He has his moments.

[delphi_ote]

Heheheeh - because they were dissing JREF so badly over in ScrewLoose, I joined up!

They are good for something after all!
Welcome, and thanks so much for coming over, Obviousman. This is a great community with some great people. Glad you could join us.

[bob_kark]

Martin Short? He has his moments.

Jim Carrey

[NobbyNobbs]

I'm afraid I struck a nerve with this post: (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5618&st=90
)


Perhaps I was a little condescending...oh, well. No givesies backsies.


That's ok...I decided to give them a lesson on probability.

[RandFan]

Heheheeh - because they were dissing JREF so badly over in ScrewLoose, I joined up!

They are good for something after all!Welcome, and BTW, you are free to dissent here on any issue without getting banned.

[delphi_ote]

Jim Carrey
:notm

[bob_kark]

:notm
:catfight:

Remember, this is Canada we're talking about. The pickins are slim.

[Belz...]

Acually at the Loose Change forums they stay somewhat civil as opposed to other sites.....http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=13965 (Beware it can get super vile!!)

Ouch.

I notice these people now use "terrorist" to discredit opponents as they used to use "communist" back in the 60s.

[RandFan]

:catfight: HEY! Knock it off. No Fighting.

[Belz...]

Don't be silly,
it wasn't a BIRD,
it wasn't a PLANE it was ..
SUPERMAN! :p

Well the solution is easy, then. Let's build the outer walls of our skyscrapers with Kryptonite, and give our workers cancer...

[Pardalis]

You Canucks can keep Alanis and Young, but you have to take back Anne Murray, Paul Schaeffer, and Celine Dion. We keep Shatner, Kidder, Michael J. Fox, and a celebrity to be named later.

Dan Aykroyd?

[delphi_ote]

:catfight:

Remember, this is Canada we're talking about. The pickins are slim.
The Kids in the Hall.

[bob_kark]

Dan Aykroyd?
NO! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57639)

[Belz...]

Unlike you guys (or spain and england), we actually caught our terrorists.

:D I also notice SentinAl didn't answer my question about what he meant by "flipped". But I suppose it's easy to laught at Canada when you don't know anything about it. Eh ?

[bob_kark]

The Kids in the Hall.
I would agree if they had done anything of worth since. We got what we needed from them.

[Pardalis]

NO! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57639)

Bah! You can keep 'em all as far as I'm concerned. They'll come back to Canada eventually, when their careers slow down.

Besides, I'm from Québec, I don't really care. :D

[delphi_ote]

I would agree if they had done anything of worth since. We got what we needed from them.
Good point. What about William Shatner?

[60hzxtl]

:D I also notice SentinAl didn't answer my question about what he meant by "flipped". But I suppose it's easy to laught at Canada when you don't know anything about it. Eh ?


I think I can see a pattern from Sentinal - I think he is using a library computer in NYC.

But then I may be seeing things.

[chipmunk stew]

Good post 60thingy. If like me you never saw them in real life, this photo helps...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=3926460&postcount=118

You might also want to browse the entire thread, there are some amazing photos of the site there. If you like tall buildings it might bring a tear to your eye...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=56090&page=1&pp=20

(Catch it while you can, the hotlinks are slowly breaking)This one gives a good up-close feel of their enormity:
http://www.maggiemasetti.com/wtc/wtc15.jpg

[bob_kark]

Bah! You can keep 'em all as far as I'm concerned. They'll come back to Canada eventually, when their careers slow down.

Besides, I'm from Québec, I don't really care. :D

Yes, you wouldn't want to waste time on such trivial things when it is nearly Bastille Day!

[RandFan]

Good point. What about William Shatner?I believe that he is in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest milking of a career.

[Belz...]

All this stupidity is making my head hurt!!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6377

Make it stop!!

Chucksheen just keeps laying these golden eggs:

CDI is guilty and they have MUCH blood on their hands. THEY WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!

Thanks for bringing this to light.

Held accountable by whom ? Fat chip-eaters in their basements ?

[tsig]

Are you sure? The LC site is a world where even the laws of physics don't apply. Enter at your own risk.

Steve S.

What's with the strange sense of urgency over there? Why don't they just pack thier bags and wait for the knock on the door and the man to take them away?

I think Avery is a bit like Joe Smith ,author of the Book of Mormon, he's got them fooled and is going to ride it for all it's worth. Already the tenor of the LC forum is geeting more fervent all the time. They are all true believers.

spelling

[Pardalis]

Yes, you wouldn't want to waste time on such trivial things when it is nearly Bastille Day!

Actually it's our hollyday on the 24th of June. We're much too wasted by July 14th...:D

[bob_kark]

Good point. What about William Shatner?

He was already claimed.

[bob_kark]

Actually it's our hollyday on the 24th of June. We're much too wasted by July 14th...:D

You need to learn moderation! I always time it so that I come out of my 4th of July coma right around Labor Day.

[Belz...]

:catfight:

Remember, this is Canada we're talking about. The pickins are slim.

HEY!

[bob_kark]

HEY!

Fine, fine, we'll take Kristin Kreuk.

[60hzxtl]

Chuck sheen is a plant.

He announced this:


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4740


Doesn't he know that "Skype" is a government program meant to spy on people's calls.

Somebody should tell him.

Let him prove a negative.

[Belz...]

This one gives a good up-close feel of their enormity:
http://www.maggiemasetti.com/wtc/wtc15.jpg

Doesn't seem to work, chip.

[Belz...]

What's with the strange sense of urgency over there? Why don't they just pack thier bags and wait for the knock on the door and the man to take them away?

I think Avery is a bit like Joe Smith ,author of the Book of Mormon, he's got them fooled and is going to ride it for all it's worth. Already the tenor of the LC forum is geeting more fervent all the time. They are all true believers.

spelling

Kinda like what Jesus said: "Some of you'll still be alive when my father's kingdom will come" or something. Yeah, sure.

[delphi_ote]

I believe that he is in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest milking of a career.
He's got a long way to go before he beats the current record: The Rolling Stones.

[Pardalis]

He's got a long way to go before he beats the current record: The Rolling Stones.

They'll be probably the only rock band to postpone a concert because of a hip surgery.

[RandFan]

He's got a long way to go before he beats the current record: The Rolling Stones.You got me there.

[Apollyon]

I believe that he is in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest milking of a career.
But he's been redeemed by starring in Boston Legal (and is great in that show, imo).

[RandFan]

But he's been redeemed by starring in Boston Legal (and is great in that show, imo).The thing I like so much about Shatner is that he realized so long ago that it is best not too take ones self to seriously. He is wonderfully self-effacing.

[steve s]

EDIT: Now they are accusing CDI, guys who have been doing buildings for decades and are literally the best in the world.

That's disgusting, isn't it? Do they honestly think that the people at CDI can't account for their whereabouts in the months prior to 9/11? CDI is in such demand that as soon as they finish one project, they're flying off to start another. When did they have the time to wire up 200+ floors of explosives at the WTC? I read somewhere that CDI spent 24 days wiring up a 30 story building for implosion (and they only wired the bottom 9 floors). The WTC would have taken a year to do. And that's assuming they had unfettered access to the site 24/7. Take into account that they'd have to sneak around without anyone noticing, not even the cleaning crews at night. It would have taken years.

Steve S.

[bob_kark]

Fine, fine, we'll take Kristin Kreuk.

Nothing? Please tell me you've at least googled her. That's the least you could do to for her.

[realitybites]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6483

Looks like the natives are taking notes and gearing up to deal with the "pigs" come the anniversary.

[Class]

Did anyone see this thread about the 911 Eyewitness screening for the Japanese Parliament?
h,2t,p,slashslashs15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6442

If this is true, hopefully the Japanese Parliament will do research before they cut funding because of one man and his video.

[Class]

link goes here
Looks like the natives are taking notes and gearing up to deal with the "pigs" come the anniversary.
Their disrespect for authority is apalling. I bet that on the anniversary, they will do something to an officer that will set him off and they will videotape it and cry "Police state! Police state!"

In another thread, someone called US soldiers and Marines serving in Iraq 'mindless killers'. I dare that guy to say that to the face of a soldier coming back from Iraq and see what happens.

[Stellafane]

What's with the strange sense of urgency over there? Why don't they just pack thier bags and wait for the knock on the door and the man to take them away?

I think Avery is a bit like Joe Smith ,author of the Book of Mormon, he's got them fooled and is going to ride it for all it's worth. Already the tenor of the LC forum is geeting more fervent all the time. They are all true believers.

spelling

Does anyone else see a parallel here with the anti-abortion movement? At the start, it was led by arguably reasonable people. But then they began to argue that a fetus is the same as a human, thus abortion = murder. They probably didn't believe this entirely, but it made for emphatic and dramatic rhetoric. Problem is, less tightly wrapped followers took such statements literally, and started bombing clinics and shooting doctors to stop the "murders."

I wonder if the 9/11 CT movement is heading in the same direction. First you have goofs like Dylan Avery just "asking questions." (That he doesn't take his work very seriously is evidenced by his statement that he doesn't even think Bush should go to jail, despite creating a film that claims he's a mass murderer.) Now LC is attracting a few lost souls, looking for relevance and meaning in their lives. I fear that even as we speak, one or more of them is hatching some wild plan in their fevered mind, one that calls for actual violence against those identified as supporting the 9/11 conspiracy, in the spirit of bringing the person "to justice."

[60hzxtl]

Did anyone see this thread about the 911 Eyewitness screening for the Japanese Parliament?
h,2t,p,slashslashs15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6442

If this is true, hopefully the Japanese Parliament will do research before they cut funding because of one man and his video.


Ahhh read the details:

"Visiting 9/11 activist Jimmy Walter of Reopen911 fame made a presentation to Japanese Parliamentarians in Tokyo "

Does not equal showing it to the Japanese Parliament (sic)

Just some members of the Diet. (aka Parliament)

Not unlike "I showed it to some senators," does not equal "I showed it to the Senate."

They showed it to a Member of Parliament in England, but did not show it to Parliament


The last line is magical thinking:

"The Japanese are now weighing the fact that they fund the US war effort, frauds, lies, and hegemony to the tune of $7Trillion a year and may now cut that funding. That would leave only the Chinese as major funding for the USA efforts at their New World Order"


Watch how the kids react:
"Does anyone have any info as to the UK parliament viewing of LC2
which was supposed to happen on the 14th? "

"It didn't go ahead - but nobody knows why. "



I bet somebody knows why!

Then SqueakyBoom chimes in with:

"Wow, this is incredible news! Anyone know how the Japanese responded? Why wasn't this all over the front pages??? Wake up, MSM!!!

This was the perfect video to show to the Japanese--if anyone knows anything about what an H-bomb would do to a building, it's the Japanese, right?"


Uh, SqueakyBoom the Japanese were not on the receiving end of an H bomb

Read a book kids.

[RandFan]

Did anyone see this thread about the 911 Eyewitness screening for the Japanese Parliament?
h,2t,p,slashslashs15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6442

If this is true, hopefully the Japanese Parliament will do research before they cut funding because of one man and his video.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6442

[realitybites]

Their disrespect for authority is apalling. I bet that on the anniversary, they will do something to an officer that will set him off and they will videotape it and cry "Police state! Police state!"

In another thread, someone called US soldiers and Marines serving in Iraq 'mindless killers'. I dare that guy to say that to the face of a soldier coming back from Iraq and see what happens.

That's the new "in" thing. It's the spoiled-brat, entitlement frame of mind that these kids (and flower-power hippies) all share. I'm still waiting to see a "Rules are bad... they oppress me." bumper sticker start to pop up.

It's scary to know that this mindset is growing in the younger generations.

[Shrinker]

Did anyone see this thread about the 911 Eyewitness screening for the Japanese Parliament?
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6442

If this is true, hopefully the Japanese Parliament will do research before they cut funding because of one man and his video.
Well, if they exaggerated this...Walter's presentation was well received. as much as this.... the growing body of evidence that proves US government complicity in the false flag state sponsored terrorism of 9/11 and subsequent cover-up of incriminating evidence by government appointed investigations and commissions.
Then there's probably nothing to worry about. Also they say parliamentarians, not parliament.

[bob_kark]

That's the new "in" thing. It's the spoiled-brat, entitlement frame of mind that these kids (and flower-power hippies) all share. I'm still waiting to see a "Rules are bad... they oppress me." bumper sticker start to pop up.

It's scary to know that this mindset is growing in the younger generations.

I think it has more to do with a growing need for teen melodrama than anything else. If you'll notice, as the ration of teen dramas to teen shows in general increases, the need for melodrama follows.

[steve s]

I bet that on the anniversary, they will do something to an officer that will set him off and they will videotape it and cry "Police state! Police state!"


Would you like your million dollars in cash or check?

Steve S.

[aggle-rithm]

They do if they know they only have a few days left to live. That's like saying "Real priests don't molest kids." It happens.

Steve S.

Q. Why should you always invite TWO Baptists to your fishing trip?

A. If you invite only one, he'll drink all your beer.

[Blue Mountain]

I will admit I AM NOT A PILOT, however, my father used to own and fly an old Piper Tri-Pacer.
An uncle of mine has had his pilot's license for years. He described the "flying" part of flying as "hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror."

Professional airline pilots mostly make their money at take-off and landing. While in the air ... well, another quote: "A modern jetliner can be flown by a pilot and a dog. The pilot's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches the controls." (I heard that one on PBS's NOVA.)

[MarkyX]

Looser alert in another board.

http://shetlink.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=14961#14961

[Axiom_Blade]

I particularly enjoyed this post, MarkyX.


I wouldn't hang with these MORONS ever. They are the MODERN DAY UNCLE TOM's or shall I call you the UNCLE SAM BOOTLICKERS. Yes boss, of course boss we know those evil Arabs did it. No I believe you...cause you told me boss.


I wouldn't hang with these MORONS ever.


Ah, if only that were the truth!

[MarkyX]

OneSidedCookie is pwning them.

CTs can never debate on the topic. They just rant on and on.

[Axiom_Blade]

I love this.

LOLOLOL....wtc7???? dude are you serious????? dont go there....it was a controled demolision, according to its owner...


WOW. That's a mighty shallow gene pool!

[realitybites]

I think it has more to do with a growing need for teen melodrama than anything else. If you'll notice, as the ration of teen dramas to teen shows in general increases, the need for melodrama follows.
I'll give ya' that one Bob, but unfortunately, that doesn't explain the elder kooks.

Teens? Sure. We all know the need for rebellion is present to some extent in every teenager. Normally they take it out on mom or dad. Maybe the local cops if they're feeling particularly ornery. But what could be more rebellious, more "rage against the machine", than to confront ones own government?

[Orphia Nay]

Does anyone else see a parallel here with the anti-abortion movement? At the start, it was led by arguably reasonable people. But then they began to argue that a fetus is the same as a human, thus abortion = murder. They probably didn't believe this entirely, but it made for emphatic and dramatic rhetoric. Problem is, less tightly wrapped followers took such statements literally, and started bombing clinics and shooting doctors to stop the "murders."

I wonder if the 9/11 CT movement is heading in the same direction. First you have goofs like Dylan Avery just "asking questions." (That he doesn't take his work very seriously is evidenced by his statement that he doesn't even think Bush should go to jail, despite creating a film that claims he's a mass murderer.) Now LC is attracting a few lost souls, looking for relevance and meaning in their lives. I fear that even as we speak, one or more of them is hatching some wild plan in their fevered mind, one that calls for actual violence against those identified as supporting the 9/11 conspiracy, in the spirit of bringing the person "to justice."

[Emphasis added]

Important points, Stellafane.

I agree that this is a fear that drives many of us to speak up about the madness of the 'movement'. At first I was driven by wanting to defend the already-vulnerable victims' families and friends against the (not always obviously) baseless allegations of the conspiracy theorists, but I have subsequently become worried, after seeing the 'truthers'' vehemence and dogmatism, that someone is going to get hurt.

As yet, though, no one person has been named as the mastermind of the 'cover-up', which is some consolation.

Actually, I'm sure this conspiracy theory has probably hurt people already, in the sense that some people may be too paranoid to leave the house and go to work; families and friends are worried about about people; friendships have been lost.

[EchoWars]

There is sooooo much information here that it is difficult to comprehend....

I found JREF after few friends sent me a link to the LC video, saying "How could our govt. DO that to us???" My immediate reply, after wasting those hours of my life (that, not incidentally, I want back) watching that drivel, was "They didn't".

With the help of Google, I found a few facts for myself, and with the heated battle between the CT's and JREF, seems I couldn't miss a few hits to JREF. I then found the *.doc of Gravy's debunk, and sent it to my gullible friends. All three of them responded to me with some version of "I can't believe I fell for that BS".

There are some amazingly intellegent people here...far beyond my puny grey matter to match wits with. However, JREF has found a ardent fan and supporter in myself, and if I can possibly contribute something despite my ignorance on many subjects, I'd love to try.

Gravy, you rock dude. So does JREF. Why did it take so long to find this website? :o

Color me pleased.:p

EW

[RandFan]

There is sooooo much information here that it is difficult to comprehend....

I found JREF after few friends sent me a link to the LC video, saying "How could our govt. DO that to us???" My immediate reply, after wasting those hours of my life (that, not incidentally, I want back) watching that drivel, was "They didn't".

With the help of Google, I found a few facts for myself, and with the heated battle between the CT's and JREF, seems I couldn't miss a few hits to JREF. I then found the *.doc of Gravy's debunk, and sent it to my gullible friends. All three of them responded to me with some version of "I can't believe I fell for that BS".

There are some amazingly intellegent people here...far beyond my puny grey matter to match wits with. However, JREF has found a ardent fan and supporter in myself, and if I can possibly contribute something despite my ignorance on many subjects, I'd love to try.

Gravy, you rock dude. So does JREF. Why did it take so long to find this website? :o

Color me pleased.:p

EW:) Welcome to the forum.

Many of the members here tower over me in intellect. You don't need to be a genius to debate and contribute.

1.) Educate yourself as much as you can (learn both sides of the argument)

2.) Pick your battles. If you are fuzzy in an area try not to step into the fray even if your opponent is a few bricks short of a load.

3.) If you don't already understand proper debating techniques and how to make and spot arguments and how to avoid fallacy then check out Logic & Fallacies (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html). Pay special attention to the argument clinic (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-python.html) (Monty Python Sketch). Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObaAcV33xqk&search=argument%20clinic) is the video version.

If you know all of this then ignore it.

RandFan

[Gravy]

However, JREF has found a ardent fan and supporter in myself, and if I can possibly contribute something despite my ignorance on many subjects, I'd love to try.

Gravy, you rock dude. So does JREF. Why did it take so long to find this website? :o

Color me pleased.:p

EW
Welcome, and thanks! You may be interested in my latest production, which I'm just announcing now. It's a sad and scary look at what the creators of "Loose Change" actually say during public interviews. Unfortunately, it looks like Dylan Avery & co. actually believe the insane things they say.

Go here to download the 3.2 Mb PDF.
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=123105

If anyone wants to host this, feel free. These guys want exposure, and I plan on giving it to them.

[The_Fire]

Does anyone have a link to a downloadable version of "Loose Change"? I'm doing an internet piece on copyright/press ethics and I want use that bloody thing as a warning example. But that means I actually have to see it a couple of times in order to get every infraction and being able to do a "before /after" on the quotes.
YouTube is a progressive download thingy, but I can't seem to locate the temp file it creates and I need something for posterity.......
Help?

[60hzxtl]

But that means I actually have to see it a couple of times in order to get every infraction and being able to do a "before /after" on the quotes.
Help?

Oddly enough, even their website link no longer works (Thank you Naudet Bros.!) http://www.loosechange911.com/

You have my sympathy having to see it - and see it again.

There are plenty of copies to be had out there, (The Film So Good We Have To Give It Away!) you just have to hold your nose about the way you acquire it.

The good news is, that we are a crafty bunch around here. I'm certain the solution is around the corner - and I am NOT psychic.

[The_Fire]

Oddly enough, even their website link no longer works (Thank you Naudet Bros.!) http://www.loosechange911.com/


*Gloating laugh*. I'm liking the Naudets more and more by the second.


You have my sympathy having to see it - and see it again.


I know. My braincells are already screaming in panic....I wonder if a tinfoil hat can do the trick....



There are plenty of copies to be had out there, (The Film So Good We Have To Give It Away!) you just have to hold your nose about the way you acquire it.



Let me guess: Just go by the smell of bovine excrements?




The good news is, that we are a crafty bunch around here. I'm certain the solution is around the corner - and I am NOT psychic.

That's what I'm hoping.....

[60hzxtl]

I know. My braincells are already screaming in panic....I wonder if a tinfoil hat can do the trick....
...


Now there is something I can help with. . .


http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

[MarkyX]

Welcome, and thanks! You may be interested in my latest production, which I'm just announcing now. It's a sad and scary look at what the creators of "Loose Change" actually say during public interviews. Unfortunately, it looks like Dylan Avery & co. actually believe the insane things they say.

Go here to download the 3.2 Mb PDF.
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=123105

If anyone wants to host this, feel free. These guys want exposure, and I plan on giving it to them.

I uploaded on Megaupload and Rapidshare. It's on the Screw Loose Change video site.

[chipmunk stew]

There is sooooo much information here that it is difficult to comprehend....

I found JREF after few friends sent me a link to the LC video, saying "How could our govt. DO that to us???" My immediate reply, after wasting those hours of my life (that, not incidentally, I want back) watching that drivel, was "They didn't".

With the help of Google, I found a few facts for myself, and with the heated battle between the CT's and JREF, seems I couldn't miss a few hits to JREF. I then found the *.doc of Gravy's debunk, and sent it to my gullible friends. All three of them responded to me with some version of "I can't believe I fell for that BS".

There are some amazingly intellegent people here...far beyond my puny grey matter to match wits with. However, JREF has found a ardent fan and supporter in myself, and if I can possibly contribute something despite my ignorance on many subjects, I'd love to try.

Gravy, you rock dude. So does JREF. Why did it take so long to find this website? :o

Color me pleased.:p

EWWelcome, EchoWars!

Just when I started thinking "why do I even bother?" along you come to remind me. Color me pleased, too!

[60hzxtl]

Welcome, EchoWars;

Why do I bother? Because I don't want to see a genuine, captured bad guy get away, because this tripe is used at his trial in his defense, and some weak minded jurror thinks a missle that nobody saw was used against the Pentagon, or that CT was used to finish the destruction of the WTC.

Five people who I crossed paths with in my life died in that hole.

You never catch a boogie man, you just keep chasing. Once in a while you capture a bad guy, and bring him to justice.

[Brainster]

Does anyone have a link to a downloadable version of "Loose Change"? I'm doing an internet piece on copyright/press ethics and I want use that bloody thing as a warning example. But that means I actually have to see it a couple of times in order to get every infraction and being able to do a "before /after" on the quotes.
YouTube is a progressive download thingy, but I can't seem to locate the temp file it creates and I need something for posterity.......
Help?

You can download the Google Video here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848) (you need to use the Google video player to play it).

[Brainster]

Welcome, and thanks! You may be interested in my latest production, which I'm just announcing now. It's a sad and scary look at what the creators of "Loose Change" actually say during public interviews. Unfortunately, it looks like Dylan Avery & co. actually believe the insane things they say.

Go here to download the 3.2 Mb PDF.
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=123105

If anyone wants to host this, feel free. These guys want exposure, and I plan on giving it to them.

Man, that opening bit with Dylan joking around with Jack Blood just reminds me of why I got so angry at Loose Change in the first place. I happened to see Version 1 and got po'ed at his mocking the victims when discussing the cellphone calls (which was toned down a bit in LCV2).

[The_Fire]

You can download the Google Video here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848) (you need to use the Google video player to play it).

Me thinks me found a work-around. The original download file is merely a redirect thingy for the player. But if one were to, say, open that file in notepad instead and start looking for an url.......No that one would exploit such a security breach in google videos setup of cause........

[FFed]

Me thinks me found a work-around. The original download file is merely a redirect thingy for the player. But if one were to, say, open that file in notepad instead and start looking for an url.......No that one would exploit such a security breach in google videos setup of cause........

Just use this site, and you can download the file as an avi. Just paste in the link.

http://keepvid.com/

[The_Fire]

Thanks, fed. That will probably come in hande in the future. For now, I've got 389 megs of dreck on my harddrive.....Eughh.....I'll probably have to format the thing and reinstall everything just to get rid of the violation my CPU is feeling right now......

[60hzxtl]

Thanks, fed. That will probably come in hande in the future. For now, I've got 389 megs of dreck on my harddrive.....Eughh.....I'll probably have to format the thing and reinstall everything just to get rid of the violation my CPU is feeling right now......

Now, now, don't blame the one and zero's - they can be rearranged later.

Not like its a bad tattoo or something.

[The_Fire]

BTW: have This (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/911_documentary_removed/) been posted yet?.

[RandFan]

BTW: have This (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/911_documentary_removed/)been posted yet?.I'm not sure but the film is back up on the web.

http://www.loosechange911.com/

It looks to me as if nothing has changed.

???

[brodski]

I'm not sure but the film is back up on the web.

http://www.loosechange911.com/

It looks to me as if nothing has changed.

???
no, you can no longer download LC2E from the site, it just points you to google video. I'm not sure why google allows a film which is the subject of copyright action to be hosted there though.

[60hzxtl]

BTW: have This (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/911_documentary_removed/) been posted yet?.


Atta boy Gravy!

". . . he counted 81 "errors of fact and instances of conjecture not supported by evidence, logical fallacies, uses of images that do not support the conclusions being drawn, and other flubs".


Lets hope that soon you can't say "Loose Change" without saying "81 errors of fact!"

[The_Fire]

According to the article I posted, the google version wont be up much longer.....

[Johnny Pixels]

What about all the copies floating around on DVD etc? I volunteer to collect them all and destroy them in a controlled demolition.

[brodski]

According to the article I posted, the google version wont be up much longer.....
It would be great if true, but I'm skeptical. How long would it take for someone else to upload it.

[The_Fire]

Dear, *********** deities! That thing is still for sale! They just moved it off-site to a third party!

The idiots runnning the third-party (http://mrwconnected.com/portfolio.html)
The sales site (http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)


ETA: How do I get in touch with the Naudets and their laywers?!
(http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)

[delphi_ote]

Dear, *********** deities! That thing is still for sale! They just moved it off-site to a third party!

The idiots runnning the third-party (http://mrwconnected.com/portfolio.html)
The sales site (http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)


ETA: How do I get in touch with the Naudets and their laywers?!
(http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)

That is a bombshell if the lawyers don't already know about it. I'm trying to dig up their contact information right now. What a bunch of morons!

[Shrinker]

That is a bombshell if the lawyers don't already know about it. I'm trying to dig up their contact information right now. What a bunch of morons!

To be fair, we don't know exactly what settlement they made with the lawyers. They may now be paying royalties based on sales.

[delphi_ote]

To be fair, we don't know exactly what settlement they made with the lawyers. They may now be paying royalties based on sales.
Well, no. We don't know anything about the settlement. Do we even know if there WAS a settlement?

[realitybites]

Just when I think the CTers' callousness has reached an all time high, they go and out-do themselves (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6550&st=0&#entry5418788).

http://www.neoramen.com/gallery/legowtc.jpg

[CptColumbo]

Just when I think the CTers' callousness has reached an all time high, they go and out-do themselves (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6550&st=0&#entry5418788).

http://www.neoramen.com/gallery/legowtc.jpg

Holy [rule 8] [rule 8] on a [rule 8]!


BTW welcome Echowars.

[Johnny Pixels]

They have no morals. They're on a quest for "the truth".

Why do they find it so outrageous that someone could hijack a plane with a boxcutter? There's a reason my dad would never let me touch his Stanley knife; because they're ***** sharp. Even a slash to the hand or arm would be incredibly painful, not to mention the face. You don't have to stab someone to death with a knife to stop them from attacking you.

[MarkyX]

Holy [rule 8] [rule 8] on a [rule 8]!


BTW welcome Echowars.

I love how they mention in the first image about america having some amazing defense.

Newsflash idiots: The pilots didn't even have a god damn gun!

[MarkyX]

I also might know the artist of that comic. Lemme use my webcomic powers to find out (FREE PLUG: http://www.chroniclesofgaras.com)

EDIT: Doh, the link is already in the image properties, but it is someone who I knew in the past.

YET ANOTHER EDIT: This ****ers do not know about geeks. They would never buy into this madness they call the truth. I'm involved in numerous gamer/anime communities and the only chance they have is freaking Gaia Online (which is the closet you get to teenage closet yaoi freaks) or Furries.

ANOTHER EDIT: Oh **** that idiot artist is actually PART of the 9/11 truth. The idiot must be really seeking attention because his webcomic sucks.

[EchoWars]

Thank you for the welcome. I'm still trying to get myself up to speed. FWIW, I feel oddly at home here. :)

Fathers Day today, so the whole fam damily got together (as families do), and someone brought up the issue of the 9/11 CT's. At least it seems that no one I'm close to needs to be b**ch-slapped into understanding that the ability to make a video does not mean that the expertise in the areas necessary to draw proper conclusions is automatically conferred upon you. Makes me proud of my clan.:D

I read (in the paper that Gravy linked to a few threads ago), that LC was originally intended as fiction or parody...can't seem to find anything that points this out (like a quote from Avery).

Pardon the dumb or repetitive questions...I'm in information overload and doing my best.:eye-poppi

[chipmunk stew]

Thank you for the welcome. I'm still trying to get myself up to speed. FWIW, I feel oddly at home here. :)

Fathers Day today, so the whole fam damily got together (as families do), and someone brought up the issue of the 9/11 CT's. At least it seems that no one I'm close to needs to be b**ch-slapped into understanding that the ability to make a video does not mean that the expertise in the areas necessary to draw proper conclusions is automatically conferred upon you. Makes me proud of my clan.:D

I read (in the paper that Gravy linked to a few threads ago), that LC was originally intended as fiction or parody...can't seem to find anything that points this out (like a quote from Avery).

Pardon the dumb or repetitive questions...I'm in information overload and doing my best.:eye-poppiWhile the Loosers have proven over and over again that there IS such thing as a stupid question, yours are not. We're here to inform and be informed.

Dylan's first sentence in this interview explains that LC was originally to be a work of fiction:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery%20interview

[EchoWars]

While the Loosers have proven over and over again that there IS such thing as a stupid question, yours are not. We're here to inform and be informed.Thank you!

With a subject and very long discourse such as LC has generated, I guess I was being sensitive to the fact that there HAS to be 1000 questions that keep getting asked over and over.

'preciated...

[delphi_ote]

Thank you!

With a subject and very long discourse such as LC has generated, I guess I was being sensitive to the fact that there HAS to be 1000 questions that keep getting asked over and over.

'preciated...
There's nothing wrong with a question being asked and answered over and over again as long as the person asking the question can actually be convinced by the answer and isn't trying to prove something by asking the question.

[delphi_ote]

I also might know the artist of that comic. Lemme use my webcomic powers to find out (FREE PLUG: http://www.chroniclesofgaras.com)

EDIT: Doh, the link is already in the image properties, but it is someone who I knew in the past.

YET ANOTHER EDIT: This ****ers do not know about geeks. They would never buy into this madness they call the truth. I'm involved in numerous gamer/anime communities and the only chance they have is freaking Gaia Online (which is the closet you get to teenage closet yaoi freaks) or Furries.

ANOTHER EDIT: Oh **** that idiot artist is actually PART of the 9/11 truth. The idiot must be really seeking attention because his webcomic sucks.

Webcomics are going the way of CT? Man this sucks...

[MarkyX]

Webcomics are going the way of CT? Man this sucks...

Nah, not all of them.

But this particular one, who is hosting the images, is named PokeyBot. Bascailly it's a rather ****** video game comic with ****** writing and artwork. The creator behind it wanted to make it big like Penny Arcade, but failed and blamed numerous people, including successful video game comics, on it. He blasted my webcomic on another board around two years ago (over what, I don't remember)

It's no surprise that this loser is trying to get into the CT business. Either he is stupid or sees a potential use of his...*cough*, talents. As you can see, he actually believes the images he is using is called 'effective satire'. Told you he is a **** writer.

[CptColumbo]

Dylan's first sentence in this interview explains that LC was originally to be a work of fiction:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery%20interview
...And it ended up a work of fiction, so mission accomplished.

[dubfan]

". . . he counted 81 "errors of fact and instances of conjecture not supported by evidence, logical fallacies, uses of images that do not support the conclusions being drawn, and other flubs".


Good grief, that article made an error about the number of errors. There are 81 errors of fact (true), but 426 errors of all types -- "flubs".

Sheesh.

[Orphia Nay]

Dear, *********** deities! That thing is still for sale! They just moved it off-site to a third party!

The idiots runnning the third-party (http://mrwconnected.com/portfolio.html)
The sales site (http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)


ETA: How do I get in touch with the Naudets and their laywers?!
(http://lc911.com/lc911/home.php)


Thankyou, The Fire for finding that out, and a pre-emptive thanks for getting in touch with the lawyers. (If I don't hear from you soon that you've done it, I'll do it myself. We don't want to both do it, as if they're getting bombarded with emails (and threats in the case of the Looosers) from the likes of the Looosers and Les Raphael, I don't want to add to their inbox unnecessarily.)

The Naudets (or their film) are managed by the William Morris Agency in New York.

The Naudets' lawyers' (the ones who took the action against LC) website is here:
http://www.fgks.com/default.asp

You can email their lawyers here:
http://www.fgks.com/contact.asp
The lawyer who sent the letter to Dylan Avery was Lisa E. Davis of that firm.

(Les Raphael has some other contact details for the Naudets in his article (http://www.spingola.com/jules_naudet.htm) but I wouldn't count on their accuracy.)

[Orphia Nay]

EchoWars, it is heartwarming and encouraging to read what you've posted about finding the forum, Gravy's Critique, and your being able to debunk the 9/11 CT for your family.
Thankyou very much for posting, and let me add:

:welcome4

[Darat]

I've split this thread to make it slightly more accessible, Part III can be found here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58618