Loose Change - Part II

[60hzxtl]

I cant help but being reminded of a former collegue of mine, whom shipped of one of these nice little informercials, his first, (We had a contract with Århus County) to be aired WITHOUT waiting for the "all clear" on the music.

Ever notice that there's never enough money to do it right, but there's always enough to do it again.

I'm worried about you Fire - You come in with a header of Unimpressed Female, and then on my post (in the 30's) you do this????

I swear, I could KISS you right now! So pucker up!

But I liked it, I liked it! (did I come close to impressing you?)


What a great Dane you are! - I wonder will I have to switch to 50hz xtl just to sync up?

(Sure hope you get that reference, Ms. editor or she's gonna get the bat after me!)

[brodski]

Or maybe the gas leak was preplanned...

The whole city was rigged! :boxedin: Did you know that it is a PROVEN FACT that the government arranged for a HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE GAS to be pumped THROUGHOUT NYC? and some of those pipes went RIGHT PAST the WTC?
;)

[The_Fire]

50 hrz.....XTL.....YOU SCALY COYOTE! *Grabs the tomcat basher*

[60hzxtl]

50 hrz.....XTL.....YOU SCALY COYOTE! *Grabs the tomcat basher*

Careful where you swing that thing, or you'll smash my Nagra!

[XXX]

I see the LCer's are still going on in their paranoid rantings. I posted a link to that whole "The Naudet film was staged thing" back on page 13, I KNEW that they would play that card. Of all the things I have read in my research, even the whole "blue screen" idea, I don't think I have read a more paranoid ranting than that one!

Originally Posted by Dylan :Loose Change Final Cut will be 100% legal and trust me, it's going to blow the 9/11 movement out of the water.

Once again, a slight mis-statement from the truth community...let me see if I can correct it for accuracy...

Originally Posted by Dylan :Loose Change Final Cut will be 100% legal and trust me, it's going to blow.

Some of my other favorite responses to Blinker's post...

"Dylan is the bad guy?...but all the Naudets have done is try to profit off of a national tragety." Oh god. Every damn 9/11 conspiracy site out there has a link to paypal or a DVD/book you can buy. Pot...kettle...black...you know the line.

"It is a planned attack to try to destroy the #1 resource for Truth Information." If LC is the #1 resource for "truth" infomation, we don't have much to worry about.

"You have no right to come here and throw accusations around. Period." Yea, and you guys are only accusing how many people of mass murder while taking the blame off the people who did it?!

"There are hundreds of 9/11 victim family members if not thousands, that are demanding answers for the government and not getting them. Dylan and the rest of the crew are trying to get the answers FOR THEM." Well, if they are demanding answers because of the inaccurate BS that you guys showed them in your movie, then that makes you responsible for feed them BS! Tell me honestly, which came first? Them demanding these answers, or you guys feeding them BS questions? And not every family that wants some answers believes in this conspiracy theory garbage.

I also love how anyone who asks that LC3 only contain the best evidence, stuff that is "irrifutable" is then attacked. Why?! Why not make a movie with only the very best evidence you have to give it the most credability possible? Oh yea, because it's almost all garbage, and to do that you'd be left with a very short movie indeed...

Can't wait to see this "debunking of gravy's debunking". I really hope it's better than the "debunking" of 9/11 myths.com they like to point to, because that was a really pathetic effort!

[karim]

Can't wait to see this "debunking of gravy's debunking". I really hope it's better than the "debunking" of 9/11 myths.com they like to point to, because that was a really pathetic effort!

For example a while back I mailed to ask where is this info in the "debunking" of 9/11 myths.com" from.

My Response:
His response is not true, for the reason that the Hijackers saw there
names
and photos on television and actually went to the American embassy in
Saudi
Arabia and told the authorities that they wanted there names and photos
taken off the FBI most wanted list.



This is the answer from Chris Morganti <physic_911@hotmail.com>:

I can't provide you with sources, to be honest I forget where I read it.
But it is admitted they went to the American embassy in Saudi Arabia and
complained.



It is admitted?

[Gravy]

For example a while back I mailed to ask where is this info in the "debunking" of 9/11 myths.com" from.
This is the answer from Chris Morganti <physic_911@hotmail.com>:
It is admitted?
Sounds good to me. "I forgot where I read it" is one of the most commonly-cited sources in the world, even more so than Wikipedia!

[XXX]

Nice job Karim.

There is actually some truth to that story, I'll have to dig up the exact details, but one of the people who has the same name as one of the accused was a pilot for a Saudi airliner, and he was assumed from that background to be the guy that they were talking about and his picture was pulled up and used alongside that name. It was a mistake, and one that was corrected very early on, but yes in his case he really did see his name and picture on TV and said "That's not me!" And they do have info on the guy who has the same name, the guy who actually was the hijacker. I've always been suprised at just how much legs these "The hijakers are still alive" stories have.

I've been reading some of these "Debunking of Gravy's debunnk threads". LOL. Not much of a debunking there so far. Just claims that it's full of lies and errors with little to back up their statements. The biggest statement that they seized on was on of the ones that caught my eye as well when I first went through it. The 95% of the plane has been recovered claim. The first thing I did was look for a link for verification of that claim, since I hadn't heard a specific number before, but I saw none. But then, when a guy in the LC thread on the topic actually does bring up 3 stories that directly say that 95% of the plane was recovered, no one address it other than "yea right, I don't believe it". Or requests for "proof" or pictures of all the wrekage, just another example of the standard they hold other evidence to that they don't use on their own. However, just for the record I would like to know exactly where you got that specific claim Gravy and I think you need to throw a link in to it in that section. Just my opinion.

What else are they left with? Oh the WTC7 report should have been done sooner than now. OK. What else? Some debate about what NORAD is and isn't responsible for protecting. OK, got it. Anything else? No, not really.

Does that sound like a total debunking to anyone?!

I do like stuff like this..."I just clicked into gravy's piece scrolled down and stopped at random to see if I could do to his debunk what he's done to LC2E." A few claims like this, to give the impression that the piece is so full of lies that any one part can be picked at random and destroyed with ease. An attempted to discredit the entire piece without actually doing it. Nice try guys.

Or the numerous claims that they would destroy this guide if ONLY they had the time...from the looks of that forum many of these people have nothing but time on their hands.

Or a lot of "I know the guide is garbage, but I'm still waiting for the debunking of that guide to be released". In other words, I know this must be false, but I don't know how or why, so I'm waiting for someone to release their own guide and tell me. Nothing stoping any of you from doing the research and putting together your own rebuttels guys. If it's so full of lies and can be easily taken apart, it should be no problem, right?

I'll be waiting to read these, whenever (or if) any of them come out.

[sleahead]

One Looser admits defeat

BEcause people were talking about it here, I read Gravy's piece on LC2. I tried to ignore the sarcasm and focus on the facts and look into the truth of them as much as possible. I have to say I was stunned at how much Dylan got wrong, and how much only takes a few minutes to check out. I know that making the video took a huge amount of effort, it's more than I could do. But I couldn't find a single example where Gravy said Dylan was wrong and Dylan turned out to be right. (I did find some examples where Gravy was wrong on his own, such as writing Paul O'Neill instead of John.)

So, a lot of people here say nasty things about Gravy, and maybe some are deserved. But I have yet to see ANYONE challenge him directly, and he INVITED people to do that. I think its common knowledge that he is banned here, so what's the use of calling him a liar here, where you're safe from having to defend yourselves? (I don't post there because I'm new to this and I don't feel I have enough knowlege.)

While another dreams on

Basic Overview of Gravy in one word, Hypocrite.
(Yes I am working on a Gravy Debunk Breakdown along with a couple other projects, so it's taking me a little time, Im sorry guys)

[kevin]

I guess. But making digital copies of other people's footage is easy. Odds are their editing software is pirated, but even if they bought it they'd only be dropping about $800 on it. Say $700 to get their hands on all the footage (and that's a pretty big damn estimate!) A decent microphone at $200 (again, gross overestimate.) Sound card at $200. Hard drive, $300 tops.

I can't even come up with half the expenses they're crying about.

I haven't watched the "movie" but my guess is the editing could be done with the free version of Avid's DV editing package.

http://www.avid.com/freedv/

or in iMovie on a Mac, but i don't see them as Mac users.

[hellaeon]

They're way ahead of you, friend: (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/naudet/raphael.htm)


Thats just completely mental. I cant believe it. I cannot imagine just sitting around and making stuff up and then believing it so deliberately as these guys do. These people are a pyschology students utopia.

Why does coincidence seem an impossible outcome to these guys? No, the frenchies were there because they were in on the conspiracy!
On the weekend here, a spectactor in the Australian football league had an arguement (http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=269418) with a coach of his favourite team. Naturally it was big sports news. Incredibly, that same guy later that night got hit buy a train (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=103996).

Totally freakish

[Gravy]

Thats just completely mental. I cant believe it. I cannot imagine just sitting around and making stuff up and then believing it so deliberately as these guys do. These people are a pyschology students utopia.I'd like to see one of the Loosers go to the fire company that Jules Naudet was with and accuse its members of involvement in the plot that killed 343 of their brothers. Sounds like a good film project for Dylan Avery: he'll get to replace some of those firemen quotes he has to cut, and get back at the Naudets at the same time, all while martyring himself for the cause. [/QUOTE]

[kookbreaker]

he'll get to replace some of those firemen quotes he has to cut,

As well as replacing some teeth.

[Belz...]

50 hrz.....XTL.....YOU SCALY COYOTE! *Grabs the tomcat basher*

By the way, Fire. Is that a typo in your location, or was Malebolgia borgified and I wasn't informed ?

[Gravy]

One Looser admits defeat
...While another dreams on
Basic Overview of Gravy in one word, Hypocrite.
(Yes I am working on a Gravy Debunk Breakdown along with a couple other projects, so it's taking me a little time, Im sorry guys)
From what I can tell, the "'hypocrite" part refers to me accusing Avery of making assumptions that are not evidence-based, although I also make several assumptions in my analysis. There's a big difference. My assumptions are based on verifiable evidence. Avery's are not.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

From what I can tell, the "'hypocrite" part refers to me accusing Avery of making assumptions that are not evidence-based, although I also make several assumptions in my analysis. There's a big difference. My assumptions are based on verifiable evidence. Avery's are not.

Plus, even if they were right, it would still be tu quoque and not bolster their argument one iota.

[Manny]

I'd like to see one of the Loosers go to the fire company that Jules Naudet was with and accuse its members of involvement in the plot that killed 343 of their brothers. Sounds like a good film project for Dylan Avery: he'll get to replace some of those firemen quotes he has to cut, and get back at the Naudets at the same time, all while martyring himself for the cause. I'll walk them there myself if they'd like. But just like Mutton-head, they don't actually want to know what the people they quote really think because they know -- they know! -- that the truth undermines their desparate bid for attention and their mission to deflect attention from the actual perpetrators of the attacks.

[Gravy]

Plus, even if they were right, it would still be tu quoque and not bolster their argument one iota.
I'm still waiting for even one of the me to email me with any sort of correction. I caught a couple of small mistakes myself, and I think they'd be able to do the same. I do get emails from other truthers that chastise me for omitting other "facts," forgetting that my analysis was limited to "Loose Change." I got one of those emails yesterday. The author said I did a good job with my analysis, then added this (my annotations in brackets):

However, there are some omissions in your review:

- the warnings, some very specific, from 15 allies shortly before 9/11 that it was imminent (who, what, where) [I have seen no evidence that any of the information gathered by these allies was specific as to "who, what, or where.]

- the suppression of five FBI investigations by senior management
[I asked for clarification about these...assume he means investigations about the possible al Qaeda people in the U.S.]

- the anthrax from Ft. Detrick that was sent to the Democratic leadership and the media shortly after 9/11 (when the D's were balking at the so-called Patriot Act) [Yes, that has a lot to do with "Loose Change"]

- the refusal of Secret Service to follow standard operating procedures - failure to remove Bush from a known location [...To an unknown location? Bush was perfectly safe with the grade-schoolers. He stayed at the school to make a short televised speech to the nation before heading back to Washington.]

- "put options" placed on United and American the week before (betting the values would drop on those airlines, and not others) [I covered this thoroughly.]

- the plane into building exercise near Dulles Airport at the moment the actual events started [And?]

- the fact that Flight 77 flew around the building to hit the mostly empty, recently reconstructed and strengthened sector (which is difficult to accept as a coincidence given the extraordinary piloting that required to ensure the damage would be minimized) [Flight 77 "flew around" Washington, D.C., not the Pentagon, in order to hit the Pentagon at all. It had overflown the building at 7,000 feet. There's no evidence that Hani Hanjour had orders to hit a certain part of the Pentagon.]

among other disturbing evidence largely ignored by the "no plane" liars and the debunking of those lies [Sorry for leaving out all other disturbing evidence.]

You claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy (despite the physical impossibility of that claim - which even the US House Committee on Assassinations admitted in the late 1970s - and that George H W Bush was not yet a politician in 1963 and therefore not relevant to the coup against Kennedy. A short response is to ask: "who had the power to change the motorcade route in Dallas" to bring it closer to the Book Depository (where Oswald had been assigned to work, temporarily) and the "grassy knoll" If this re-route had not happened, the assassination would not have occurred. [Bwahahahahaha! He fell for my "kook trap."]

[XXX]

I actually have something that I can add to the loose change guide. Regarding the Rumsfeld quote to Parade magazine that a missle hit the Pentagon...

"Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filled with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center."

You mention this in the Loose change guide, but you did not mention that Parade, on September 4th 2004, had actually issued a retraction. The actual link to it no longer works, but here is the text...

The Internet, too, is a potent tool for spreading conspiracy theories. Parade found this out after Lyric Wallwork Winik interviewed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in Oct. 2001. In a transcript of Winik's interview with Rumsfeld, which was published on the Department of Defense's website, Rumsfeld seemed to indicate that the Pentagon was hit by a missile on 9/11 instead of a plane. It turns out that a transcription error led to the confusion, but conspiracy theorists latched onto Rumsfeld's supposed admission and spread it over the Internet.

And of course, even more obvious in reading the whole piece is that it was a transcription of an audio interview, and one with several spots where it is inaudable, possibly due to bad quality. Is it really a huge stretch to assume that a poor quality audio interview was slightly mistranscribed with "and a" put down instead of something like "as a" which sounds very similar and would put the quote in context as his only refering to the fact that the plane itself was used as a missle, an observation that has been stated by many people since the attacks?

[Gravy]

I actually have something that I can add to the loose change guide. Regarding the Rumsfeld quote to Parade magazine that a missle hit the Pentagon...
AAA info, XXX! I didn't know anything about that "People" retraction, and it will definitely go into my revision (if necessary...still waiting to see what Avery does about that version.)
Thanks!

[Pardalis]

Now rennie is definately (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=330) not geggy:

As someone who mostly lurks here, I'll tell you why I din't post more. It's because of how people who disagree are treated here. And I'm not saying that I mostly disagree...I just want the chance to do so about any particular point without being ridiculed or banned. It's bizarre and childish behavior. You even started a subforum for skeptics and then banned or suspended almost all the skeptics in it! WTF?

Over and over I have heard people say that the skeptics are "wasting our time." I think it's exactly the opposite. They are doing us a huge favor. Our arguments HAVE to be able to stand up to the skeptics. How will we know what the weaknesses are if we just preach to the choir? That's why I lurk at the JREF forum...to see what arguments they are making. They are tough, and we need to be even more tough in our thinking.

BEcause people were talking about it here, I read Gravy's piece on LC2. I tried to ignore the sarcasm and focus on the facts and look into the truth of them as much as possible. I have to say I was stunned at how much Dylan got wrong, and how much only takes a few minutes to check out. I know that making the video took a huge amount of effort, it's more than I could do. But I couldn't find a single example where Gravy said Dylan was wrong and Dylan turned out to be right. (I did find some examples where Gravy was wrong on his own, such as writing Paul O'Neill instead of John.)

bold mine

Sorry rennie

Reading his post, rennie seems to be the most reasonable of the LC enthusiasts. I just wonder if he himself admits seeing alot mistakes in LC, why he keeps holding on to the belief that the whole enterprise is worth fighting for.

[Gravy]

TheQuest, on the LC forum:
The Troll thing is about to stop. Completely.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4873621
FYI: "Troll" in LCspeak means "People who can form a coherent argument and support it with facts."

[Regnad Kcin]

The LC forums are not a place for discussion, as the word is commonly understood. It's just a gathering spot for like-minded enthusiasts.

Think of it as being similar to an auto chat board dedicated to, say, Hondas or Mustangs. If you want to join in and post "Hondas rule!" you'll be welcome. Suggest they might in some way actually not rule (by the way, can we get a moratorium on that word?) and you'll be shown the door. Also, something can't just "rock" -- everything else has to "suck."

The human animal: greatest show on Earth.

[orphia nay]

Excellent post over on LC, Orphia, and you haven't been banned - yet. A stunning follow up by someone called Blinker has earned them an instant ban.

I do hope this lawsuit at least goes to the point where Avery has to declare how much he has earned from his shameful video and where the money has gone.

Thanks very much, sleahead, and welcome to the forum. That’s one of the reasons I’m looking forward to this lawsuit too. I also enjoyed your second post very much.

Shrinker/Blinker - just after you posted at LC, I sent you a quick pm there saying "Well said, excellent post, and thanks", but since you're banned you probably didn't get it. I didn't know who you were at the time, although an image of your (awesome) JREF avatar came to mind a few times while reading your post (woooo!) – I couldn’t remember your actual ‘name’. Again, very well said.

'Unfounded Speculation Movement' – hehehe - is the abbreviation of that pronounced with a silent ‘S’, making it “UUUUUMMMMMM” (the sound they make when asked “Who did it?” and “Where are the allegedly missing passengers?”).

Nice posts btw (the ones at LC).

Thank you, Pardalis. That’s what I like about this group of 9/11 critical thinkers. There’s rarely a post goes by that’s not commented on - either to give it credit, to correct its facts or logic, or to add supporting reasearch - and that not only provides moral support but contributes to the overall quality of information.

[dubfan]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/upload/av-1609.gif

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4872051

[60hzxtl]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/upload/av-1609.gif

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4872051



I predict the south one will fall before the north.

And somebody tell her http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&st=30&#entry4872051

that the song 'Happy Birthday' is copyrighted.

http://www.unhappybirthday.com/

[Regnad Kcin]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?
Ms. Johnstone could be a stone-cold foxy mama, but at some point you'd have to engage her in conversation:

is quite tearfull now, I know dylan an co is gonna get through this... this movement will not stop, god i hope they do), is upset by some off the attacks on dylan and loose change and the whole truth movement as a whole...
Mind you, that was after she edited it!

[Regnad Kcin]

I predict the south one will fall before the north...Thanks. I wasn't aware M&Ms could shoot out my nose!

[dubfan]

I predict the south one will fall before the north.

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

And somebody tell her http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&st=30&#entry4872051

that the song 'Happy Birthday' is copyrighted.

http://www.unhappybirthday.com/

I sent her your love.

[dubfan]

Ms. Johnstone could be a stone-cold foxy mama, but at some point you'd have to engage her in conversation:

Yeah, but until then...BLISS.

[XXX]

Damn, you guys beat me to it...."Yeah I have heard happy birthday sung here in the UK for years and it is not under copyright laws so get your facts right before you post crap like that, yes happy birthday is in the public domain what century do you come from? (when it is your kids birthday do you wish the a happy birthday or do you refrain incase you are sued from copyright?)..." Do these people check any of their facts before telling others that they are wrong?

[money]

Now rennie is definately (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=330) not geggy:



bold mine

Sorry rennie

Reading his post, rennie seems to be the most reasonable of the LC enthusiasts. I just wonder if he himself admits seeing alot mistakes in LC, why he keeps holding on to the belief that the whole enterprise is worth fighting for.

Yeah, looks like I was off when I first wrote that.

Sorry for the mistake, rennie, if you're lurking. I wouldn't want to be confused with Geggy either...

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/upload/av-1609.gif

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4872051

Tragic proof of the old adage: Beauty times brains equals a constant.

[60hzxtl]

Thanks. I wasn't aware M&Ms could shoot out my nose!


Plain or peanut?

[delphi_ote]

Tragic proof of the old adage: Beauty times brains equals a constant.
Then you haven't met Rebecca or TKingDoll!

[60hzxtl]

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif



I sent her your love.

Thanks buddy!

[Pardalis]

Yeah, looks like I was off when I first wrote that.

Sorry for the mistake, rennie, if you're lurking. I wouldn't want to be confused with Geggy either...

It was an understandable mistake:

Both their names sound alike, both have joined the respective forums at about the same time, boths are hearing impared, both seemed to have been aware of our mistaken them at the same time...

Guess we both fell trapped to the conspiracy bug! Got to remind ourselves that coincidences do happen. ;)

[Ramooone]

I predict the south one will fall before the north.

And somebody tell her http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&st=30&#entry4872051

that the song 'Happy Birthday' is copyrighted.

http://www.unhappybirthday.com/

speaking of interesting copyrights, did you know that gene simmons of KISS owns the copyright of a bag with a dollar sign on it, like in cartoons when people rob banks.

[Pardalis]

speaking of interesting copyrights, did you know that gene simmons of KISS owns the copyright of a bag with a dollar sign on it, like in cartoons when people rob banks.

Does he also own the rights to cunnilingus?

Ooops:o

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Then you haven't met Rebecca or TKingDoll!

Are they available? ;)

[dubfan]

Thanks buddy!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4880523

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Then you haven't met Rebecca or TKingDoll!

SoT just said constant, didn't say it had to be a low constant ;)

[CptColumbo]

BTW I just sent off e-mails and mail to the various production companies involved in Joe's Apartment, to see if they were aware of the use of footage from their movie in LC.

If you've got time:

Geffen Pictures
MTV Networks
Warner Brothers

are the interested parties.

I've only watched LC once, and have no intention of watching it again just to see where all the footage came from, but if the various sources were made aware of their footage being used for profit the Naudets may only be the begining.

It is interesting that since they can no longer use the footage, they are claiming that it was staged. If you ever watched the 9/11 WTC movie you would never claim that it was staged.

[bob_kark]

Then you haven't met Rebecca or TKingDoll!

Its a crying shame I tell you. Why they hang around a sorry group of SOBs like us, I'll never know. Though, I suspect its simply to give us that glimmer of hope before dashing it like so much broccoli.

[steve s]

Thanks for the backup over there, Dubfan. Did anyone see the post over there by GGG? Is that someone from here? XXX, maybe?

Steve S.

[XXX]

It's not me. I wouldn't sign up over there. I actually wanted intellegent discussion on the subject, insight into some issues that maybe I didn't understand fully...a sharing of research. Not a bunch of garbage followed by 100 smilies and a ban.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/upload/av-1609.gif

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4872051

Actually, the more I look at that pic, the more it feels familiar to me. Like I've seen it before in some kind of beer ad or other well known cheesecake shot.

Am I being a good skeptic by saying that it's possible that JessicaJohnstone "borrowed" it from somewhere, or am I just paranoid?

[dubfan]

Am I being a good skeptic by saying that it's possible that JessicaJohnstone "borrowed" it from somewhere, or am I just paranoid?

I think you're being a very good skeptic by asking such questions. I think we need more pictures in order to make an accurate determination.

[dubfan]

It's not me. I wouldn't sign up over there. I actually wanted intellegent discussion on the subject, insight into some issues that maybe I didn't understand fully...a sharing of research. Not a bunch of garbage followed by 100 smilies and a ban.

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

Aw, c'mon. You know you want one:
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/3617447af14678684.jpg

[XXX]

The patch is nice and all, but I have my own debates raging with other "truth seekers" about 9/11, if I add those guys into the mix my head might explode. Not worth it, even for the patch!

I would like to address one thing you did mention over there Dubfan..."I don't think he's in libel trouble with the Naudet Bros. I think he's in copyright trouble with them."

Not just copyright trouble. If you read the first part of the letter they sent him, in paragraph 2..."...as well as violates the Federal Lanham Trademark Act by suggesting that the Naudet brothers or Mr. Hanlon have endorsed or sponsored the controversial views expressed in your film". Also see page 3 of that letter to read more about that part of their claim. It's not libel, but it's not JUST about the copyright either. The inclusion of their footage, they can argue, suggests that they endorse this film or it's conclusions (after all, why else would they agree to let them use the footage if they didn't agree with them on some level? Or so the viewer will think, not knowing that they in fact did not grant them permission).

The specific subsection of the Lanham act they are refering to is 43(a) 15 USC 1125, subsection A. Here it is, for your reading pleasure!



False designations of origin and false descriptions forbidden
(a)
Civil action.

(1)
Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which--

(A)
is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive as to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person, or
(B)
in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities, shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.

(2)
As used in this subsection, the term "any person" includes any State, instrumentality of a State or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this Act in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.
(3)
In a civil action for trade dress infringement under this Act for trade dress not registered on the principal register, the person who asserts trade dress protection has the burden of proving that the matter sought to be protected is not functional.

[Ducky]

Then you haven't met Rebecca or TKingDoll!



*Ahem*


There were other hot skepchicks (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1430894#post1430894) at TAM 4 too...



The evidence is in the link. Don't tease avhienda about her beard though. She's touchy.

[Shrinker]

Actually, I think the only question on anyone's mind at this point is, is JessicaJohnstone as hot as her multiple avatars would lead one to think she is, and if so, do you think a CT Skeptic has any chance in hell of scoring with her?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/upload/av-1609.gif

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4872051

I suspect she's a he, and the name & pictures are of someone in his class. That kind of thing happens on less mature boards.

[sophia8]

I suspect she's a he, and the name & pictures are of someone in his class. That kind of thing happens on less mature boards.
Nah. That type wouldn't be sharing a classroom with somebody who can afford liposuction, tanning, waxing and a good boob job.

[Belz...]

- the fact that Flight 77 flew around the building to hit the mostly empty, recently reconstructed and strengthened sector (which is difficult to accept as a coincidence given the extraordinary piloting that required to ensure the damage would be minimized) [Flight 77 "flew around" Washington, D.C., not the Pentagon, in order to hit the Pentagon at all. It had overflown the building at 7,000 feet. There's no evidence that Hani Hanjour had orders to hit a certain part of the Pentagon.]

Plus... these guys seem to claim that the WTC attack was for maximum damage and "terror" effect, then turn around and say the pentagon attack was delivered for MINIMAL losses. Contradiction ?

You claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy (despite the physical impossibility of that claim

Physical impossibility, eh ? Shooting someone at 10 mph with a high-powered rifle with a scope is impossible ?

[Belz...]

TheQuest, on the LC forum:

FYI: "Troll" in LCspeak means "People who can form a coherent argument and support it with facts."

We need to get our acts cloeaned up professionaly as time is flying by and the perps are playing for keeps.

Yes, I'm sure their efforts will expose and convict "the perps". Keep up the good work. Dorks.

[Belz...]

Tragic proof of the old adage: Beauty times brains equals a constant.

Evidence ?

[Pardalis]

Plus... these guys seem to claim that the WTC attack was for maximum damage and "terror" effect, then turn around and say the pentagon attack was delivered for MINIMAL losses. Contradiction ?

Seems some of the conspiracists are going out of their way to excuse the acts of these terrorists and want to make them look like they were just a bunch of good guys after all.

This is sickening.:mad:

[Flo]

I doubt they're intelligent enough for that, or for that matter that they understand what they're saying is amounting to ...

[60hzxtl]

BTW I just sent off e-mails and mail to the various production companies involved in Joe's Apartment, to see if they were aware of the use of footage from their movie in LC.

SNIP.

I've only watched LC once, and have no intention of watching it again just to see where all the footage came from, but if the various sources were made aware of their footage being used for profit the Naudets may only be the begining.
.

I'm amazed at how ignorant they are about ownership, copyright, intellectual property, etc.

When they claim that the Naudet footage was on CNN (where they lifted it) and so it must be public domain - completely oblivious to the conclusion that just maybe, CNN paid a bundle for it? Same with Evan Fairbanks footage of the 2nd hit. I've heard rumors of what he got for the first exclusive usage, and it would make a nice down payment on a house in a good part of town. (Subsequent usage costs less -- but get there first and collect big.) And if your contract is in your favor you can decide to sell, or not to sell to other users - its called choice, not censorship.

They argue that "nobody stops me from singing Happy Birthday" but that's not what it's all about - its performance for profit, or performance that diminishes my profit. (Can't give MY stuff away, but you can give it away if you pay me my price.)

But then they have complete and absolute knowledge of aircraft identification, physics, controlled demolition, metallurgy, communications, and connecting all the dots all the time.

I just wish they would learn the difference between Your and you're there and their!

Be grateful that the CT'ers are not shoemakers or we'd all be crippled.

[Pardalis]

I doubt they're intelligent enough for that, or for that matter that they understand what they're saying is amounting to ...

I think they'll accuse just about anyone except Al Qaida. I find it a little disturbing.

If that's a conscious decision or just plain stupidity, it's hard to tell.

[Flo]

I think they'll accuse just about anyone except Al Qaida. I find it a little disturbing.


Whenever they're asked about it, they usually rely on "CIA armed and trained BenLaden so that makes him part but not the head honcho of the conspiracy".



If that's a conscious decision or just plain stupidity, it's hard to tell.

When in doubt, always go for stupidity ;)

[chipmunk stew]

Whenever they're asked about it, they usually rely on "CIA armed and trained BenLaden so that makes him part but not the head honcho of the conspiracy". They call it "Al-CIA-duh"

[chipmunk stew]

DJLegacy2k1 jumps to Dylan's defense --> :dig:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4857153 :
Don't worry guys, the Naudet's character will be destroyed after this attempt.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4862282 :
Me and Dylan have been talking...

It looks less and less like the Brothers' are trying to make a quick buck. If that were the case they would have lumped EVERYONE that used their footage onto one law suit to save time and money.

It seems more like someone involved with 9/11 pressured the Brothers' into doing this as a half assed way to attack LC and the Truth Movement.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4864271 :
let's atleast keep the conspiracy simple. How hard is it to imagine that Paramount threatened the Naudet brothers, regarding the legal agreement between them.

Because my source tells me that The LC crew and Paramount have a good relationship.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4885549 :
Anyways, me and Dylan might have proof that the NYPD is covering up a MAJOR incident that took place on 9/11. We need a few more details, but needless to say, the Police transmissions that took place, are then changed by the Transportation authority about what really happened and the NYPD didn't release the Radio transmissions with the rest of them that were ordered to be released earlier this year.

It's an unfolding story, but it shows that maybe even the LOCAL police and FDNY were being pressured to keep certain things under wraps and cover it things up.

So the statement that they FDNY were in on it...maybe be an EXTREME staement because OBVIOUSLY they weren't part of the plan, but after the fact, they may have been told to hide some things.

[The_Fire]

By the way, Fire. Is that a typo in your location, or was Malebolgia borgified and I wasn't informed ?

"Resistance is futile"...erhm.....Blame the StarTrek people. It have absolutely NOTHING to do with my plans on taking over hell or anything....Nope, nothing at all.....Nothing to see here, people, move along.....

[The_Fire]

Geez....Those idiots really don't know what they are dealing with, do they?
My money would go on the Naudet brothers in a trial.

[Flo]

DJLegacy2k1 jumps to Dylan's defense --> :dig:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4885549 :


Terminal stupidity and suicidal tendencies, then !

[Ducky]

I'm amazed at how ignorant they are about ownership, copyright, intellectual property, etc.

When they claim that the Naudet footage was on CNN (where they lifted it) and so it must be public domain - completely oblivious to the conclusion that just maybe, CNN paid a bundle for it? Same with Evan Fairbanks footage of the 2nd hit. I've heard rumors of what he got for the first exclusive usage, and it would make a nice down payment on a house in a good part of town. (Subsequent usage costs less -- but get there first and collect big.) And if your contract is in your favor you can decide to sell, or not to sell to other users - its called choice, not censorship.

They argue that "nobody stops me from singing Happy Birthday" but that's not what it's all about - its performance for profit, or performance that diminishes my profit. (Can't give MY stuff away, but you can give it away if you pay me my price.)

But then they have complete and absolute knowledge of aircraft identification, physics, controlled demolition, metallurgy, communications, and connecting all the dots all the time.

I just wish they would learn the difference between Your and you're there and their!

Be grateful that the CT'ers are not shoemakers or we'd all be crippled.



Just for reference: The song "Happy Birthday" is NOT in public domain, (http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp)contrary to CTers claims.

ETA:

If Avery had used the Happy Birthday song, he would have been sued by AOL/Time-Warner.

[aggle-rithm]

I have more info on my other computer at work. Will send later. Some guys from the EPA, who are/were investigating the dust for health reasons, said that they had never seen anything like it before. It was a homogenous fine powdered mixture of everything that makes up an office building. Minus the steel of course.



Wow! You mean that in ALL the 110-story building collapses the EPA has investigated, the two at Ground Zero were the ONLY ONES that produced this kind of dust?

Fascinating!

[chipmunk stew]

Geez....Those idiots really don't know what they are dealing with, do they?
My money would go on the Naudet brothers in a trial.What really gets me is, where is the talk of securing a lawyer or what steps they plan on taking to fight this? Instead we hear more conspiracy talk implicating NYPD and FDNY in a cover-up. They only have until Thursday to respond, for chrissake.

Lisa E. Davis, our hero for May:
http://www.fgks.com/bios.asp?attorneyID=3

[dubfan]

Account suspended for two weeks (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4886569).

[The_Fire]

What really gets me is, where is the talk of securing a lawyer or what steps they plan on taking to fight this? Instead we hear more conspiracy talk implicating NYPD and FDNY in a cover-up. They only have until Thursday to respond, for chrissake.


Which only illustrates exactly HOW far from reality this people are. If I got a letter like that, the first thing I would say were "Were are my release forms again?" and second: "Where are my lawyers phonenumber?".

Off cause since these jokers never secured release papers in the first place, that would make "Where are my lawyers phonenumber?" first priority.

[dubfan]

Psychological question here... I wonder how much of this is some kind of wish-fulfillment working itself out. I mean, they want desperately to believe in this big government conspiracy, where they (the CTs) are the guardians of truth and are being "silenced" by the government...

The way things are going, before long they're going to have a whole army of lawyers, the FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, and who knows who else on their case... And then they're going to REALLY feel validated.

[Flo]

Psychological question here... I wonder how much of this is some kind of wish-fulfillment working itself out. I mean, they want desperately to believe in this big government conspiracy, where they (the CTs) are the guardians of truth and are being "silenced" by the government...

The way things are going, before long they're going to have a whole army of lawyers, the FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, and who knows who else on their case... And then they're going to REALLY feel validated.


But they may well soon regret to have chosen that way to martyrdom instead of more expeditive processes :D

[The_Fire]

But they may well soon regret to have chosen that way to martyrdom instead of more expeditive processes :D

If not before, then when the 5 digit fines starts pouring in.....

[dubfan]

But they may well soon regret to have chosen that way to martyrdom instead of more expeditive processes :D

Yes. I see a Buzz Aldrin moment in Dylan Avery's future. Must be my clairvoyance acting up again.

[dubfan]

See now -- this is what makes my blood boil:

What do the passengers have to do with anything

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4887025

It's like Dylan's remark during the Bay Area screening (IIRC) where someone asked about the passengers and he said, "the people are secondary".

The fact that real people really died on 9/11 is just an inconvenient fact, something to be shrugged off as wholly incidental to these morons' self-aggrandizing fantasies.

[Flo]

Yes. I see a Buzz Aldrin moment in Dylan Avery's future. Must be my clairvoyance acting up again.

If not before, then when the 5 digit fines starts pouring in.....

One of my grandmother's favorite punishment was "lui botter le cul jusqu'à ce que ça sente l'ail" (kick his ***** until it smells of garlic) ... :D

[60hzxtl]

Account suspended for two weeks (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4886569).



Ahhh, man! Who's gonna be my mouthpiece over there. I can only lurk. I need to maintain some plausible deniability.

(Now THAT's a conspiracy!)

My mind is still walloped that they had no idea that you had to pay for footage!

"like, hey, man Dylan" You said that people didn't take you seriously saying you were 'just a kid' but let me add, a stupid one too!

I am standing by for the meltdown! It will be a self fulfilling prophesy - "like hey man, they won't show it because they were told by the secret order not to show it!"

No, because it's bad, really bad. And the music still goes through my head like a nail.

Poor guy, he thought that film making was all limos and sunglasses.

[Hutch]

I feel like I'm not doing my part--I haven't been banned or suspended yet (one poster over there has privately told me he is gunning for me, but he hasn't got me yet.)

So if there is anything you need communicated...let me know.

[Belz...]

I think they'll accuse just about anyone except Al Qaida. I find it a little disturbing.

If that's a conscious decision or just plain stupidity, it's hard to tell.

Sometimes I do wonder.

[CFLarsen]

I'm there, too.

For the time being...

[Belz...]

Anyways, me and Dylan might have proof that the NYPD is covering up a MAJOR incident that took place on 9/11. We need a few more details, but needless to say, the Police transmissions that took place, are then changed by the Transportation authority about what really happened and the NYPD didn't release the Radio transmissions with the rest of them that were ordered to be released earlier this year.

It's an unfolding story, but it shows that maybe even the LOCAL police and FDNY were being pressured to keep certain things under wraps and cover it things up.

So the statement that they FDNY were in on it...maybe be an EXTREME staement because OBVIOUSLY they weren't part of the plan, but after the fact, they may have been told to hide some things.

They should look into REAL conspiracies and see what usually happens.

[bob_kark]

They finally have proof of the conspiracy!! Wow, you must take a look at this:

Whistleblower (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5146)

from the The Meria Heller Show-


"This man, Richard Andrew Grove, a whistleblower who worked for the big boys and money people behind 9/11 has come out with information to set the 9/11 movement on fire.

Although many have rejected his work (too busy, big egos, whatever) including the IRS, Treasury Dept and SEC, what he exposes on Marsh & McLellan, AIG, Dyncorp, Spitzer, Stewart Air Force Base, Fitzgerald, Bremer, missing gold and bucks of 9/11, software that predicts the future and more will ASTOUND YOU as it did me. I will be having him live on the show in June, but wanted you to hear this urgent information immediately. That is why I worked on it all day.

If you are a journalist, blogger, etc., DO NOT think this is a ruse. I expect you to LISTEN intently to what this man is presenting and act on it.

If you are a friend, subscriber, past guest, listen and then relisten. Pass it on to every outlet and every email list, group you have. This information is EXPLOSIVE. The more of us that know this information, the greater the chances I won't be killed for presenting it, and the greater the chances for a real revolution in America's thinking processes. Go beyond the explosions, destruction of evidence, etc., and learn who BENEFITTED and HOW on 9/11 to find out who the Corporate Fundamentalists are that were behind it all.

Thank you for trusting me with this one, it's well worth it.
Love,
Meria

"We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore".
"THE MERIA HELLER SHOW"


Ooooh!! Software that predicts the future?! How can you now deny that 9/11 was a conspiracy? I bet they had hoverboards and holodecks and stuff too!

ETA: Wow, that is the best intro to any podcast I've ever heard.

[Kiwiwriter]

Serious? When I go there, the entire screen is blank, except for the following text, centered and in white:Clicking on either text block connects to the letter from the lawyers (http://www.loosechange911.com/main_naudet.html).

ETA that you bastids type too quickly.


ETA more: Now waitaminute here. Wait just a confounded minute. These guys are willing to take on the entire United States government, people whom they beleive are so ruthless that they'll kill 3,000 people in America's busiest commercial center and at the center of the military but they'll cease and desist on the basis of a letter from a bunch of weenie lawyers? What the hell kind of truth-seekers are these guys, anyway?

Back after a weekend of remembering fallen warriors and playing with my family, and I find out that this discussion and debate has gone into 21 innings. YIIIIIIIIIPE :eek:

Anyway, while I'm not too good with the physics equations, lawsuits, copyright action, and defamation issues I can understand. :)

Yes, it's interesting that these folks seem more bent out of shape that a law firm slapped them with paper than the US government supposedly murdering thousands of innocents and forcing or cajoling everyone else to following their dictum. If I was in the LC position, I'd be checking my toothpaste for explosives and my telephone for wiretaps.

But the fact is, the government doesn't particularly care much about "Loose Change" or any of these loose screws. The conspiracy theorists think they and their ideas are the center of the universe, and give themselves an exaggerated sense of self-importance to compensate for their utter unimportance. Yet at the same time, they also know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison any time soon. If the government attacks, the conspiracy theorist has a number of defenses: he can cry "Free Speech," which brings the ACLU in on his side, with their formidable resources, and he can play himself as the downtrodden activist standing in the face of oppressive government. Furthermore, the government is limited by its own regulations, codes, and the Constitution. For all the rubbish conspiracy theorists spout against the government conspiracy, they know the government is hamstrung by its own laws.

So the theorists not really worried about government reaction and harassment, such as that may be. On the other hand, when a well-heeled law firm, with a real budget, real resources, real knowledge of the legal system, hits them over the head with a real complaint, that gets the conspiracy theorist's attention and reaction. A real law firm with a real lawsuit can shut them down. The conspiracy theorists can't hide behind the First Amendment in a copyright case. They can't hide behind the First Amendment in a defamation case. Or a harassment case.

And these are civil actions, so they can't get the same kind of legal help and public support. Nor can they count on public sympathy. You violated copyright? You defamed some guy? No contributions here.

What's interesting is that their answer is to talk about harassing a legal firm with extra- and illegal measures. If it's exceptionally stupid to send harassing and threatening mail to the President of the United States, it's just as stupid to send such mail to a law firm that is pursuing an action against you. If anything, it wins their case for them. And such behavior breaks a passel of laws. Furthermore, such behavior again cuts off the sympathy...it's one thing to defend somebody for speaking up about 9/11 conspiracies, it's another to defend somebody for threatening a lawyer's life, because he or she is doing the job his firm and clients are paying him to do.

Extremists often regard themselves as being above the law, because of their role as "true believers" and the bringers of great truths. So they engage in the very tactics they accuse their opponents of engaging in. They become what they behold, and try to justify it as doing an evil to achieve a greater good.

Like Hitler and Stalin, unfortunately.

[dubfan]

I feel like I'm not doing my part--I haven't been banned or suspended yet (one poster over there has privately told me he is gunning for me, but he hasn't got me yet.)

OCMark now shows as "Unregistered". I think they kicked him to the curb. I guess the clown pictures weren't cutting it anymore.

I have no idea what prompted my first ban, which was only for 48 hrs. I think there was a lot of pent-up frustration with the JREF people and they banned 4 of us at once, just out of spite. This time they banned me instantly after that post -- for two weeks! -- probably because of the smileys. You can insult Dylan, take issue with Loose Change...but those freakin smileys are sacred, baby.

So if there is anything you need communicated...let me know.

Actually, if you don't mind... I just want to respond to one person who replied to me directly, and then I'll have to lurk for a couple of weeks. Would you mind posting this:

Sorry chuck -- I'd reply personally, but I've been banned for two weeks. Your questions are addressed in Gravy's Viewer's Guide to Loose Change (http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8) and at Mike Williams' site, 911myths.com (http://www.911myths.com). There is nothing suspicious at all about any of the things you've mentioned, once you know all of the facts.

Cordially,
dubfan

to this post? -- http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4887702

Thanks Hutch!

[bob_kark]

They finally have proof of the conspiracy...

This podcast is like listening to an audiotape of VCR instructions.

[Kiwiwriter]

I overlooked something in this small passage when responding to the forum member in my post #550:

No one should be "guessing" at all.

First off, the default position in this case will be that airplanes collided with two buildings, setting off a chain of events that led to their destruction. Why is it the default? The process corresponded to simple, unextraordinary processes.

Now, it is not enough to just challenge that position in order to negate it, as so many alternate scenario proponents seem to believe. It reminds me of what Arthur Conan Doyle, writing as Sherlock Holmes, said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Thing is, nothing that happened on 9/11 was impossible or even extraordinary from a physical or human behavioral standpoint (the latter meaning to indicate acts of war by an enemy group).

Here's what's extraordinary: Countless people -- Americans -- conspired to commit indiscriminate mass-murder on thousands of their fellow citizens, as well as those of numerous other countries. They did this in secret, not only during the planning stages, but the set-up, the execution, and the post-op follow-through. In addition, rather than, say, simply plant and detonate a highly destructive bomb in a highly populated area, these countless planners and technicians took on the task of masking their efforts so as to look like something else entirely (hijacked airplanes, building demolitions, etc.) not only complicating their plans, but in doing so also increasing the risk of their discovery, be it in regard to the human component or the physical crime scene debris. Furthermore, these planners and technicians apparently performed this convoluted operation (which, it should be added would cost an astounding amount of money not only to carry out, but also in expenditures of hush-money to all participants) in a busy metropolitan area in order to further their goals for world domination, as a prelude to Part 2: the correspondingly very simple act of planting evidence of weapons of mass destruction in remote regions of Iraq as a way to prove justification and continued cover for their efforts.

Oh, wait.

Right...the government did a sloppy and heavy-handed job of causing this chaos. It would have been a lot easier to simply just to do what the Japanese did in 1931...they mined a section of rail track in Manchuria, blew it up, showed it to the media, and half an hour later, trains were running on that line....and Japanese troops were taking over the whole country.

THAT was a pretty neat fabrication. So was "Operation Canned Goods" in 1939, where the Germans injected arsenic in a few concentration camp prisoners, dumped them in Polish uniforms around a radio station in the border town of Gleiwitz, while Alfred Naujocks and some SS men entered the station, spouted some anti-Nazi rhetoric in German into the open microphone, fired a few shots into the bodies...and then Goebbels and Hitler announced to the world that the Poles had "invaded" Germany and the counterstroke was in progress.

A lot cheaper than blowing up the WTC, and a little more effective, I might add.

[sophia8]

So the theorists not really worried about government reaction and harassment, such as that may be. On the other hand, when a well-heeled law firm, with a real budget, real resources, real knowledge of the legal system, hits them over the head with a real complaint, that gets the conspiracy theorist's attention and reaction. A real law firm with a real lawsuit can shut them down. The conspiracy theorists can't hide behind the First Amendment in a copyright case. They can't hide behind the First Amendment in a defamation case. Or a harassment case.

And these are civil actions, so they can't get the same kind of legal help and public support. Nor can they count on public sympathy. You violated copyright? You defamed some guy? No contributions here.

What's interesting is that their answer is to talk about harassing a legal firm with extra- and illegal measures. If it's exceptionally stupid to send harassing and threatening mail to the President of the United States, it's just as stupid to send such mail to a law firm that is pursuing an action against you. If anything, it wins their case for them. And such behavior breaks a passel of laws. Furthermore, such behavior again cuts off the sympathy...it's one thing to defend somebody for speaking up about 9/11 conspiracies, it's another to defend somebody for threatening a lawyer's life, because he or she is doing the job his firm and clients are paying him to do.Just like I said before, this is promising to become very entertaining viewing.
Hey, pass that beer along willya?

[Kiwiwriter]

[QUOTE=dubfan;1667774]If I'm not mistaken, though, it looks like all the Naudet bros. want is to have their footage removed from Loose Change and the supporting materials (websites, etc.). It doesn't look (right now) like they're going after damages. If Dylan just yanks the Naudet imagery ... he can still keep distributing LC, correct?

This is satisfying but I think it's a short-lived thing. I suspect the Naudets are just appalled that they're associated with this crap and are trying to extricate their work from it. It doesn't appear from the letter that they have any agenda other than that. I'm sure the assets of LTW are not worth trying to go after.

I also think it's just the start of legal troubles for Dylan and possibly others in the "Truth" movement. It baffles me that some of the estates of some of the high-profile people implicated in that film haven't come forward and sued for libel.

ETA: Hmm... just thought about that. Can an estate of someone who's deceased sue for libel? Interesting legal question. I suppose you could say the libel reflects not only on the deceased but on the estate as well.
[QUOTE]

I think the Naudet brothers care less about the money than about their reputation -- in being presented as supporters of conspiracy theories, and having their work misused for that purpose.

As for the libel case...you cannot libel a dead person. You can defame the dead anyway you want. Their reputations are considered buried with them. The theory of libel law is that it does harm to the living, not the dead.

[Pardalis]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4864271 :



This one's a gem:"let's atleast keep the conspiracy simple. "

That is so hillarious!

[Kiwiwriter]

Watching them scramble over at the Loser's forum is a hoot. Telling themselves that all we need is a circle hug and we'll- get -that -footage- we need- from -those -nasty -french- guys -who -are -they -to -stop- us- when- our- hearts- are- pure-


That made me realize that the movement over there is based on FEELINGS. We Feeel that wtc7 was ct. We Feeeeel that it was a missile nobody saw at the Pentagon. We Feeeeel that we can use other people's work for free.

Science plays no part. It's just feelings.

That's a big point...I'm reading Wilcox and George's hefty book on extremism in America, and a huge part of extremist and conspiracy theory is based on feelings, not evidence, as well as on making the evidence fit the feelings. Holocaust deniers do the same thing. A lot of it is about belief and proving the faith.

I'll let sociologists and psychologists talk about the quasi-religious aspects of these groups. I've noticed that a number of extremist groups collapse after the death or jailing of the charismatic founder.

[Pardalis]

Account suspended for two weeks (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4886569).

WTF! What for?????

[bob_kark]

Ok, still listening to the podcast, I've just learned that oil is not a fossil fuel and therefore not in danger of running out. Neat!

[Kiwiwriter]

I am struggling through the Loose Change forum.

I have several little questions an one big question. I cannot find the answer.

The big question is what do they hope to gain by all of this?

Are they petioning to punish the responsible party? Are they out to help the families of victims?


That's what puzzles me, too...if the whole world is in the hands of a conspiracy, surely they don't expect to change anything...at some levels, they probably seriously believe that they will end up in a shallow grave in a dark forest. They don't, of course. Instead they get something far worse: ridicule.

As for helping victims and punishing those responsible...they don't really know what they want. The same is true with most of these extremist outfits. They have buzzwords and jargon (some of it mind-deadening), but no real policy or solutions. They just have this idea that once the evildoers are hanged by ropes they have sold us, Utopia will magically arrive.


Is there a link to a thread or even a post that give the reason why?

Oh, I don't accept "we need to stop them before they do it again...".

I would like to see something more like "we need to stop them before they do it again, so we are X (making this public, gathering funds to help the victims, hiring lawyers to punish, petitioning congress, etc.)

Yes, but then they'd have to actually do something besides whine. I point that out to other people who whine about "the mess the world is in," that they can whinge about it, or they can try to clean up their corner of it. They usually shut up when I point that out, and change the subject.


I would love to see some one say "with X information and X proof, we will do Y to guarantee that Z happens". Everything I am reading now just seems to be a b!tch session, blame game or calling some one else a poopy head.

Any help would be appreciated. Don't know how long I will have to read to find it myself.

Thanks

HN

Blaming is easier than constructive work.

[Manny]

If I was in the LC position, I'd be checking my toothpaste for explosives and my telephone for wiretaps.

But the fact is, the government doesn't particularly care much about "Loose Change" or any of these loose screws. The conspiracy theorists think they and their ideas are the center of the universe, and give themselves an exaggerated sense of self-importance to compensate for their utter unimportance. Yet at the same time, they also know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison any time soon. If the government attacks, the conspiracy theorist has a number of defenses: he can cry "Free Speech," which brings the ACLU in on his side, with their formidable resources, and he can play himself as the downtrodden activist standing in the face of oppressive government. Furthermore, the government is limited by its own regulations, codes, and the Constitution. For all the rubbish conspiracy theorists spout against the government conspiracy, they know the government is hamstrung by its own laws.

So the theorists not really worried about government reaction and harassment, such as that may be. On the other hand, when a well-heeled law firm, with a real budget, real resources, real knowledge of the legal system, hits them over the head with a real complaint, that gets the conspiracy theorist's attention and reaction. A real law firm with a real lawsuit can shut them down. The conspiracy theorists can't hide behind the First Amendment in a copyright case. They can't hide behind the First Amendment in a defamation case. Or a harassment case.

And these are civil actions, so they can't get the same kind of legal help and public support. Nor can they count on public sympathy. You violated copyright? You defamed some guy? No contributions here.

What's interesting is that their answer is to talk about harassing a legal firm with extra- and illegal measures. If it's exceptionally stupid to send harassing and threatening mail to the President of the United States, it's just as stupid to send such mail to a law firm that is pursuing an action against you. If anything, it wins their case for them. And such behavior breaks a passel of laws. Furthermore, such behavior again cuts off the sympathy...it's one thing to defend somebody for speaking up about 9/11 conspiracies, it's another to defend somebody for threatening a lawyer's life, because he or she is doing the job his firm and clients are paying him to do.

Extremists often regard themselves as being above the law, because of their role as "true believers" and the bringers of great truths. So they engage in the very tactics they accuse their opponents of engaging in. They become what they behold, and try to justify it as doing an evil to achieve a greater good.

Like Hitler and Stalin, unfortunately.Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.

If I was in the LC position, I'd be checking my toothpaste for explosives...Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

[Pardalis]

Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.


Excellent.

According to their fantasy reality, a lot of people involved in the "conspiracy" had to be bought to keep silent. So if so many people are easily corruptable, why haven't they been offered anything to shut up by the powers that be?

[Pardalis]

Damn double-post.

[dubfan]

WTF! What for?????

No explanation given. I suspect it was because I hadn't reached my smiley quota for the month. I thought 10 http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif would've been enough, but I guess not.

[bob_kark]

Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

I LOVE that old gag!! Er, what? I have no idea what you're talking about. We These Globalist fellows use it all the time would never dream of doing something so cruel.

[Pardalis]

No explanation given. I suspect it was because I hadn't reached my smiley quota for the month. I thought 10 http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif would've been enough, but I guess not.

I think it's because you insulted their friends the terrorists:

Why's that so hard to believe? Terrorists have been doing destructive, murderous acts for decades, exactly because they don't like the policies of this or that government. It is what terrorists do. The particular terrorists who pulled off 9/11 had been attacking American interests for years. Why is it so hard to accept that they hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings?

[Kiwiwriter]

They finally have proof of the conspiracy!! Wow, you must take a look at this:

Whistleblower (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5146)



Ooooh!! Software that predicts the future?! How can you now deny that 9/11 was a conspiracy? I bet they had hoverboards and holodecks and stuff too!

ETA: Wow, that is the best intro to any podcast I've ever heard.

Well, don't torture me...how will the next seven World Series come out? :)

[dubfan]

Ahhh, man! Who's gonna be my mouthpiece over there. I can only lurk. I need to maintain some plausible deniability.

Sorry man, and I had you set for the hook-up with Jessica, too.

I have my own theory about her, btw. I think she's the real deal. I think the pics are real, and that's actually her posting. I think she sees a potential bandwagon/star vehicle here and wants to hop aboard, so she's trying to establish her CT cred.

If Dylan was smart he'd have her narrate (on-camera) LC3. Hopefully he'll remember to get her to sign a release first.

I suppose I shouldn't be giving them ideas, though.

[Kiwiwriter]

Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.

Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

Yes, I think I follow your scenario...in the CT version of reality, the government makes its enemies vanish, like a stage magician making his assistant disappear. It's like how the Oklahoma City nuts claimed that Clinton blew up the building so as to destroy the Whitewater records.

So the CT guys will latch on to the next big disaster and say THAT was the attempt to stifle them. Gotcha.

(Dang, it's hard to unravel this illogic!) :)

[Pardalis]

(Dang, it's hard to unravel this illogic!) :)

Just switch your mind to "off". That'll do the trick.;)

[Manny]

I suppose I shouldn't be giving them ideas, though.Quite the contrary, if she's the real deal. We ought to be sending her a free copy of Why People Believe Weird Things and an invite to TAM. Give her a chance to get on a more respectable bandwagon.

Maybe Rennie needs that treatment more though -- looks like a little light bulb has gone off for him.

[Pardalis]

Account suspended for two weeks (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5180&view=findpost&p=4886569).

Besides, how can they ban skeptics in their own skeptic sub-forum? Where's the logic in that?

[bob_kark]

Well, don't torture me...how will the next seven World Series come out? :)

Apparently Tampa Bay wins them all once the MLB finally institutes full scale steroid testing.

[Kiwiwriter]

Just switch your mind to "off". That'll do the trick.;)

I--I would if I could....let me see....CLICK!

"Green acres is the place to be...." :)

[Kiwiwriter]

Apparently Tampa Bay wins them all once the MLB finally institutes full scale steroid testing.

The only problem is that they'd be playing before thousands of empty seats, with Danny Almonte pitching for them. :)

[bob_kark]

I haven't been paying too much attention to the podcast for a little while. But now that I'm listening again, it seems that this guy believes there was a conspiracy because he has bad credit. Apparently they're trying to silence him. Maybe he should just pay his credit card bills...

[chipmunk stew]

we've spoken with the naudets.

everything is being worked out.

to our enemies: sorry, turn those smiles upside down
to our friends: told ya.

btw, not everyhing is a conspiracy, guys. the naudets had an exclusive agreement with the firefighters to not release the footage to ANYONE, they only allowed the first plane strike to be licensed out to people.

therefore, i was treading on the firefighters and their families toes', not just the naudets.

like i've said, things are being worked out, like they always have.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4889437

Somehow this reminds me of Dylan's assurances that Michael Meacher would, indeed, be screening Loose Change for members of parliament.

[Pardalis]

I haven't been paying too much attention to the podcast for a little while. But now that I'm listening again, it seems that this guy believes there was a conspiracy because he has bad credit. Apparently they're trying to silence him. Maybe he should just pay his credit card bills...

Please don't tell the entire 9/11 conspiracy was about this guy's credit debt!

[Pardalis]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4889437


Don't tell me his little trip to the real world made him actually say something that makes sense? :jaw-dropp

btw, not everyhing is a conspiracy, guys.

[chipmunk stew]

QUOTE (slick @ May 30 2006, 10:21 AM)
"Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies."
It could qualify as a parody.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4889755
[imagine :crylol: gif here]

[NobbyNobbs]

You have to appreciate the irony...




LMAO,

That's your problem then...Dumb down education of America allows for you people to stay blind to the history of the world and what really goes on around you...I feel sorry for people like you.

Im the farthest thing from a conspiracy follower, 9/11 was the first one I picked up on, and thats because its OBVIOUS...Oh well Im not here to convince you lol...Sad though...

It's ok in 20 years and stuff comes out that proves the government was in some way involved ( I mean stuff GOOD enough for you to concede to it), I'll just shake my head and feel sorry for you.

And your laughing at me...Sigh...

In a post complaining about the dumbing down of education, I count 1 grammar error, 3 punctuation errors, 2 run-on sentences, 1 typo, and 1 spelling mistake.

Edited: I mispelled the word "typo"!!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You have to appreciate the irony...




In a post complaining about the dumbing down of education, I count 1 grammar error, 3 punctuation errors, 2 run-on sentences, 1 type, and 1 spelling mistake.

And abuse of elipses!

[Belz...]

hummm...

From Loose Change forum:

The reason there are so many conspiracy researchers looking at 9/11 is because the government's official version of what happened is so incredible that it stretches the imagination far more than many of the conspiracy theories themselves. Literally.

Uh-huh.

[Belz...]

One of my grandmother's favorite punishment was "lui botter le cul jusqu'à ce que ça sente l'ail" (kick his ***** until it smells of garlic) ... :D

...hummm... je la comprend pas celle-là!!

[Belz...]

That's your problem then...Dumb down education of America allows for you people to stay blind to the history of the world and what really goes on around you...I feel sorry for people like you.

Im the farthest thing from a conspiracy follower, 9/11 was the first one I picked up on, and thats because its OBVIOUS...Oh well Im not here to convince you lol...Sad though...

It's ok in 20 years and stuff comes out that proves the government was in some way involved ( I mean stuff GOOD enough for you to concede to it), I'll just shake my head and feel sorry for you.

Oh, that's rich. People with no knowledge of anything complain about other people not having knowledge of what they consider themselves experts at.

[Belz...]

LMAO,

What a tool....

I guess he doesn't think any of the basically PROVEN conspiracies ever happened either.

Pearl Harbor, OK City Bombing, JFK, just for starters.

This guy is trying so hard to be a smartass, and he's just not good at it lol.

Yeah. Pearl Harbour, OK city, JFK. All PROVEN conspiracies. Duh!

[Belz...]

Ok, still listening to the podcast, I've just learned that oil is not a fossil fuel and therefore not in danger of running out. Neat!

What in blazes are you talking about, 43 ? What podcast ? What am I missing ? And how many socks is that gonna cost me ?

[XXX]

So let's see, now that Dylan has said that everything is not a conspiracy and that everything is being worked out, I wounder how many people over there will retract their claims about them, or jut say that many they were wrong. I'm guessing zero, they'll just put those claims away until they do something else later down the line and they can bring them all up again. Just look how many accusations can out against them over there (with no evidence) just because of this lawsuit.

But THIS statement...this is a part of the reason why I fight this battle..."Anyways, me and Dylan might have proof that the NYPD is covering up a MAJOR incident that took place on 9/11. We need a few more details, but needless to say, the Police transmissions that took place, are then changed by the Transportation authority about what really happened and the NYPD didn't release the Radio transmissions with the rest of them that were ordered to be released earlier this year.

It's an unfolding story, but it shows that maybe even the LOCAL police and FDNY were being pressured to keep certain things under wraps and cover some things up.

So the statement that they FDNY were in on it...maybe be an EXTREME staement because OBVIOUSLY they weren't part of the plan, but after the fact, they may have been told to hide some things."

I hate it when they go after the Police and Firefighters without solid proof.

"...me and Dylan might have proof that the NYPD is covering up a MAJOR incident that took place on 9/11. We need a few more details."

You MIGHT have proof?! You're f'n kidding, you make an accuastion like this, and you MIGHT have proof? Yea, I'd say you need more than a few details.

"So the statement that they FDNY were in on it...maybe be an EXTREME staement because OBVIOUSLY they weren't part of the plan, but after the fact, they may have been told to hide some things."

They "may have been told" huh? More solid evidence. I just don't know what to say. I hear them make various accusations against the firemen, and I'm just at a loss as to how people believe some of it with the "evidence" that they offer.

[Ramooone]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&view=findpost&p=4892497

ok guys, it's come to my attention that mrs. smith has been receiving threats. like, serious threats.

i put up the lawsuit so people would know what was going on, not so people could e-mail her threatening letters. i just sent her my sincerest apologies, with a promise to put a halt to this behavior, which I shall re-iterate:

Do not contact Lisa Davis. She does not need this; she was just doing her job. So please leave her alone. We are all mature, rational people, and we are going to work this through as such.

At this point the circumstances are as such:

1) The removal of some or all of the Naudet Brothers' footage from LC2E, which includes online versions
2) That's actually about it. We're doing everything within our power to comply, now that we have spoken to all parties concerned and are much more informed as to the situation. So for now, again, leave them alone, and I'll keep you posted as always.

[kookbreaker]

Seems like ol' Dylan is a-learning that running a cult isn't all fun n' games!

[Kiwiwriter]

Gee, I'm so touched by Dylan's great humanity and concern for Lisa Davis and her health and welfare.

I expect that Mr. Avery is more concerned with getting hit with charged with harassment, conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit murder, than behaving like a decent and civil human being.

When Matthew Hale, the "Pontifex Maximus" of the World Church of the Creator, lost a federal court fight over the name of his alleged church, Hale hired a guy to whack the federal judge. Now Hale had taken and passed the bar, so he in theory knew the laws on conspiracy. But he told his pal to go out and kill the judge.

The pal was wearing a wire.

Hale got 40 years.

The punchlines: the judge had actually ruled in favor of Hale...the Appeals Court had overturned her call, and kicked the case back down to her for re-hearing. So Hale really had no beef with the judge. Second punchline: some guy who hated the judge for a real decision killed her husband and mother-in-law. Hale was very lucky...he's been in lockdown since he was found guilty, so he did indeed have nothing to do with it.

So I wonder what Dylan's telling his pals in the back seat of his car?

[XXX]

Or how about this line...

"Also I doubt that genuine LC fans are the true source of these "not very nice" letters to the lawyers."

Must be another conspiracy...

[Kiwiwriter]

Or how about this line...

"Also I doubt that genuine LC fans are the true source of these "not very nice" letters to the lawyers."

Must be another conspiracy...

They were created by Agent-Provacateurs, sent by the Trilateralists to discredit all true researchers! Very tricky, the great conspiracy! :boggled:

[Brainster]

Somehow this reminds me of Dylan's assurances that Michael Meacher would, indeed, be screening Loose Change for members of parliament.

Note that on their website they're a little more honest about what's going on:

www [dot] loosechange911 [dot} com

We have spoken with the Naudet brothers,
and are fully complying with their requests.

So the triumphant tone at the LC forum is for show. They've really got their tails between their legs.

[kookbreaker]

Note that on their website they're a little more honest about what's going on:

www [dot] loosechange911 [dot} com

We have spoken with the Naudet brothers,
and are fully complying with their requests.

So the triumphant tone at the LC forum is for show. They've really got their tails between their legs.

Pwah! Raise your hand if your surprised.

I'll bet that some point in the near future Dylan slips and tries to make it seem as if he had to call off the dogs in his cult attacking the lawyers and such. Meanwhile he was sweating blood the whole time fearing serious legal retribution.

I think of Winston when he was being sued, and how cocky he got when the suit was dropped due to him planning to flee the country (and not having a penny to his name).

[brodski]

so, how do we go about notifying he copyright holders of the rest of the footage in LC2E?

[juryjone]

At this point the circumstances are as such:

1) The removal of some or all of the Naudet Brothers' footage from LC2E, which includes online versions
2) That's actually about it.
I'm hoping this isn't quite true. To me, the most important part of this wasn't the copyright law, but the fact that they were using the footage to promote a viewpoint that is diametrically opposed to what the Naudets believe to be true and show in their own documentary. To me, it would be like someone using my pictures of my daughter's orphanage in China to try to document human rights violations that would result in the US bombing China. It would not be enough for the persons to cease using the pictures. I would require that they pay for national advertising detailing that they used the pictures without permission, and indeed against the wishes of the person who took the pictures.

Removal alone doesn't accomplish nearly as much, in my opinion.

[Kiwiwriter]

Note that on their website they're a little more honest about what's going on:

www [dot] loosechange911 [dot} com

We have spoken with the Naudet brothers,
and are fully complying with their requests.

So the triumphant tone at the LC forum is for show. They've really got their tails between their legs.


Oh, so they were only joking when they were talking about standing up for the truth? C'mon, Dylan! Pur your money where your mouth is! :D

[The_Fire]

so, how do we go about notifying he copyright holders of the rest of the footage in LC2E?
Email them. Include a description of the "movie" and what were illegally copied.

I think contacting Universal, whom bought Geffen, should do the trick in regards to Joes Appartment.

Universal Pictures
http://www.universalpictures.com/

COntact info:
http://www.universalstudios.com/homepage/html/contact_us/contact_links.html


Can't seem to locate their snailmail......

[brodski]

Email them. Include a description of the "movie" and what were illegally copied.

I think contacting Universal, whom bought Geffen, should do the trick in regards to Joes Appartment.

Universal Pictures
http://www.universalpictures.com/

COntact info:
http://www.universalstudios.com/homepage/html/contact_us/contact_links.html


Can't seem to locate their snailmail......
my question was more along the lines of discovering which footage had been stolen and from who.

[The_Fire]

my question was more along the lines of discovering which footage had been stolen and from who.

Whoops....:blush:

[brodski]

Whoops....:blush: n need to be embarrassed, your answer was perfectly appropriate for my ill phrased question.

[JamesB]

Well I managed to get banned from the Loose Change forum before I could even post here, so I can't go over there and look.

[Shrinker]

Well I managed to get banned from the Loose Change forum before I could even post here, so I can't go over there and look.

Wow, that's harsh. You haven't even posted here yet either!

Never mind, stick around here instead. And have a badge...
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/3617447af0dad1e6c.jpg

[dubfan]

Well I managed to get banned from the Loose Change forum before I could even post here, so I can't go over there and look.

Clear the invision cookies in your browser and you should at least be able to read the forums, even if you can't post.

[Pardalis]

Well I managed to get banned from the Loose Change forum before I could even post here, so I can't go over there and look.

You mean you didn't even post and you got banned?? That must be a first! You must not have said something really wrong in your non-post.:boggled:

Welcome to this forum. Keep your non-posts in check buddy.;)

[Belz...]

Well I managed to get banned from the Loose Change forum before I could even post here, so I can't go over there and look.

Your user name wasn't by any chance something along the lines of "Idontbelievethisctcrap" ?

[rwguinn]

You mean you didn't even post and you got banned?? That must be a first! You must not have said something really wrong in your non-post.:boggled:

Welcome to this forum. Keep your non-posts in check buddy.;)

Actually:
I wasn't even allowed to register...
something about being a structural engineer...possibly calling Alek and his ilk idiots...

[Hutch]

dubfan, sorry for the delay (In a useless meeting all day) but your reply to chucklehead has been posted.

I know it's not 9-11, but the pasting the Moon Hoaxer CT'ers are taking there is causing me great pleasure (since that was the CT that took me to Bad Astronomy which eventually led me to the JREF).

Press on.

[Regnad Kcin]

ok guys, it's come to my attention that mrs. smith has been receiving threats. like, serious threats.

i put up the lawsuit so people would know what was going on, not so people could e-mail her threatening letters.The only message on the welcome page, preceeding the law firm's letter, was "Happy Memorial Day from the Naudet Bros." Seems provocative to me, but I could be wrong. However, thinking things through doesn't seem to be the lad's strong suit.

i just sent her my sincerest apologies, with a promise to put a halt to this behavior, which I shall re-iterate:

Do not contact Lisa Davis. She does not need this; she was just doing her job. So please leave her alone. We are all mature, rational people...
"Mature, rational people?" Spare me.

...and we are going to work this through as such.

At this point the circumstances are as such:

1) The removal of some or all of the Naudet Brothers' footage from LC2E, which includes online versions
2) That's actually about it. We're doing everything within our power to comply, now that we have spoken to all parties concerned and are much more informed as to the situation. So for now, again, leave them alone, and I'll keep you posted as always.
Joy. As such.

Seems like ol' Dylan is a-learning that running a cult isn't all fun n' games!
I suspect you're entirely correct.

[Hawk one]

Plus... these guys seem to claim that the WTC attack was for maximum damage and "terror" effect, then turn around and say the pentagon attack was delivered for MINIMAL losses. Contradiction ?

Actually, just to be nitpicking here, I can in fact see a miniscule of logic here. Let's look at it this way:

"They" completely ruined the WTC for all the maximum damage and terror and all that jazz. Since "they" don't operate or have many top people inside the WTC, "they" are quite happy about that.

On the other hand "they" do have a lot of top people within the American Army and whatnot, and thus, "they" attacked the Pentagon in a manner that wouldn't completely destroy it, just give enough of a show to convince people that even Pentagon was targeted. Because they still want to be able to use most of it afterwards for all their conspiracies and plots and secret missions and toga parties and whatever.

Of course, just because it's not self-contradicting doesn't mean it's true. ;)

[WildCat]

Well, don't torture me...how will the next seven World Series come out? :)
The White Sox win them all, of course. :D

[WildCat]

Apparently Tampa Bay wins them all once the MLB finally institutes full scale steroid testing.
Now THAT would require a conspiracy beyond anything the world has ever known!

Could someone get around to a controlled demolition of that godawful dome they play in? I'm willing to pay overtime for it, and maybe a free trip to our headquarters in Atlantis.

eta: of course, as always, make it look like al Qaeda's doing.

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes, master.

[Gravy]

Actually, just to be nitpicking here, I can in fact see a miniscule of logic here. Let's look at it this way:

"They" completely ruined the WTC for all the maximum damage and terror and all that jazz. Since "they" don't operate or have many top people inside the WTC, "they" are quite happy about that.

On the other hand "they" do have a lot of top people within the American Army and whatnot, and thus, "they" attacked the Pentagon in a manner that wouldn't completely destroy it, just give enough of a show to convince people that even Pentagon was targeted. Because they still want to be able to use most of it afterwards for all their conspiracies and plots and secret missions and toga parties and whatever.

Of course, just because it's not self-contradicting doesn't mean it's true. ;)
The CTs always leave flight 93's destination out of that equation. Wonder why?

[Ducky]

The only message on the welcome page, preceeding the law firm's letter, was "Happy Memorial Day from the Naudet Bros." Seems provocative to me, but I could be wrong. However, thinking things through doesn't seem to be the lad's strong suit.


"Mature, rational people?" Spare me.


Joy.


I suspect you're entirely correct.



Ballsy and stupid of these folks to send threats to an ATTORNEY.

This appears to be the crumbling of the house for Avery. All I need is a tub of popcorn, and I'll be set to watch this downward spiral...

[Hawk one]

The CTs always leave flight 93's destination out of that equation. Wonder why?Not really, no. I have long stopped wondering why they do anything they do, really.

[Manny]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5112&view=findpost&p=4885549 :Anyways, me and Dylan might have proof that the NYPD is covering up a MAJOR incident that took place on 9/11. We need a few more details, but needless to say, the Police transmissions that took place, are then changed by the Transportation authority about what really happened and the NYPD didn't release the Radio transmissions with the rest of them that were ordered to be released earlier this year.

It's an unfolding story, but it shows that maybe even the LOCAL police and FDNY were being pressured to keep certain things under wraps and cover it things up.

So the statement that they FDNY were in on it...maybe be an EXTREME staement because OBVIOUSLY they weren't part of the plan, but after the fact, they may have been told to hide some things.

Is this their big NYPD coverup (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5200)? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.

[dubfan]

dubfan, sorry for the delay (In a useless meeting all day) but your reply to chucklehead has been posted.

No problemo. Thank you.

[Polaris]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=180
I like this bit from Avery:



What an [rule8]! Not only is he trying to make us believe these are "honorable charities" he gave the money to, but he's also giving crucial information to the lawyers! How lame can a person get?

At least he could have donated this money to the families of the 9/11 victims!

That's the same Russ Pickering who thinks Loose Change is government misinformation, btw.

[JamesB]

I phrased that badly, I managed to get banned from their forum, before I had a chance to even post in this forum, since being a member here pretty much guarantees you being bannished from the Loose Change Forum.

They started a thread on the subject of our blog, but when I posted on it commenting on it, they immediately banned both Brainster and I, from commenting on our own blog!

[WildCat]

I phrased that badly, I managed to get banned from their forum, before I had a chance to even post in this forum, since being a member here pretty much guarantees you being bannished from the Loose Change Forum.

They started a thread on the subject of our blog, but when I posted on it commenting on it, they immediately banned both Brainster and I, from commenting on our own blog!
Sorry if I missed it, but what blog?

[dissonance]

I think he's referring to the Screw Loose Change blog?

[WildCat]

Is this their big NYPD coverup (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5200)? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.
That is the the nuttiest idea ever... so the Mossad would actually paint a mural of the attack on a truck and drive it to the scene? To plant box cutters!? Just nuts... :eek:

[Polaris]

Actually, the more I look at that pic, the more it feels familiar to me. Like I've seen it before in some kind of beer ad or other well known cheesecake shot.

Am I being a good skeptic by saying that it's possible that JessicaJohnstone "borrowed" it from somewhere, or am I just paranoid?

Those are probably the lame throwaway pics in every page of nudie thumbnails on free porn sites (yeah, I look, so what?). I see them all the time cut and pasted as Myspace pictures. My guess is that she probably will have Raven Riley or Mindy Vega on her ass soon.

Actually, I'd watch that.

[Hutch]

Probably going to suspension hell for this, but I simply couldn't resist...

QUOTE (Pablo @ May 30 2006, 08:53 AM)
Have only just realised but I have no idea why the film is called Loose Change. Anyone know?

Hutch reply:
Because Loose Marbles was already taken?





C'mon, that was so obvious a setup line that somebody had to use it--and you characters can't possibly be that touchy...

[Polaris]

Whenever they're asked about it, they usually rely on "CIA armed and trained BenLaden so that makes him part but not the head honcho of the conspiracy".

Which proves that none of them have ever actually read a book about al-Qaida and bin Laden in their lives.

[Polaris]

Psychological question here... I wonder how much of this is some kind of wish-fulfillment working itself out. I mean, they want desperately to believe in this big government conspiracy, where they (the CTs) are the guardians of truth and are being "silenced" by the government...

The way things are going, before long they're going to have a whole army of lawyers, the FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, and who knows who else on their case... And then they're going to REALLY feel validated.

As a matter of fact, it sounds eerily like the MO of traditional terrorist groups. The average folks don't think the evil "they" are worth actually fighting, so the terrorists anger "them" until "they" hit back. Then the terrorists can say "SEE!!" This would also (maybe) go a step toward explaining why they can't see al-Qaida being responsible for their atrocities.

[Kage]

I'm wondering what their 3rd edition will be like. What if they removed everything that was garbage or misleading or patently false? Oh, sorry. That would be a video consisting of:

Opening credits,

Statement about how the WTC and a portion of the Pentagon was destroyed on 9/11, with no pictures.

Ending Credits

I'd like to thank the people on this thread for helping me talk a friend out of believing loose change (again!). Just goes to show that a degree from the top university in the nation doesn't prevent you from being drawn in by these hucksters.

[60hzxtl]

I'm wondering what their 3rd edition will be like. What if they removed everything that was garbage or misleading or patently false? Oh, sorry. That would be a video consisting of:

Opening credits,

Statement about how the WTC and a portion of the Pentagon was destroyed on 9/11, with no pictures.

Ending Credits

I'd like to thank the people on this thread for helping me talk a friend out of believing loose change (again!). Just goes to show that a degree from the top university in the nation doesn't prevent you from being drawn in by these hucksters.

We call that a Radio Show.

[Brainster]

I phrased that badly, I managed to get banned from their forum, before I had a chance to even post in this forum, since being a member here pretty much guarantees you being bannished from the Loose Change Forum.

They started a thread on the subject of our blog, but when I posted on it commenting on it, they immediately banned both Brainster and I, from commenting on our own blog!

Yes, this is about Screw Loose Change. What James means to say is that we were banned from commenting on their post concerning SCL. It was especially galling because a couple of the Loosers came over and goaded us in our comments section to reply on their turf. Within 5 posts or so, one of the Admins had banned me for refusing to respond to his challenge, which concerned some weird article from the Washington Times in 1989 about a boy pedophile ring in the Reagan/Bush White House. It was classic trolling behavior--don't comment on the subject at hand, demand comment on a completely unrelated topic--and I told the guy to focus on Loose Change. Banned until August 8. You can see the exchange in the Skeptics forum post on "Screw Loose Change"--one of the 3-4 earliest posts in that forum.

Pat from Screw Loose Change

[Gravy]

I'm wondering what their 3rd edition will be like. What if they removed everything that was garbage or misleading or patently false? Oh, sorry. That would be a video consisting of:
Opening credits,
Statement about how the WTC and a portion of the Pentagon was destroyed on 9/11, with no pictures.
Ending Credits...

Actually, I have the exact text of what that movie would be, but it's really, really dull, with 1/3 of the original text missing. (That's just deleting the sentences with actual false or misleading statements, not the entire stories that are false or misleading.)

[Twilek]

Man, after reading nearly 20 pages in here today it feels like my brain grew legs, jumped out of my skull and went for a 4-hour jog around the city. Whew...I'm literally spent!

Nevertheless, I still have the energy to "LMAO" at the lawsuit development (I was wondering how long it would take before somebody mentioned or used in LC found a legal reason to go after his idiotic butt), with plenty left over for chuckles at Shinker's badge every time he posts it. Hehehehehe.... LOVE it!

[WildCat]

Oh my (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&st=60&#last)...

Yea, there like 5 people from jref that used to post here and made all these guy cry, so now whenever anyone comes here thats skeptical of LC that are labeled as being members of JREF. jref is a forum for ghost busters or some gay **** like that.
:eek:

Can't win 'em all! :p

[CptColumbo]

Email them. Include a description of the "movie" and what were illegally copied.

I think contacting Universal, whom bought Geffen, should do the trick in regards to Joes Appartment.

Universal Pictures
http://www.universalpictures.com/

COntact info:
http://www.universalstudios.com/homepage/html/contact_us/contact_links.html


Can't seem to locate their snailmail......
Universal Studios
818-777-1000 Fax: 818-866-1516
100 Universal City Plz
Universal City, CA 91608

Warner Brothers Studios
818-954-6000
4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, CA 91522

MTV Networks Inc
310-752-8000
2600 Colorado Ave
Santa Monica, CA

These are the interested parties. Sorry I didn't add them with my previous post.

[Gravy]

There's an interesting interview with Stacey Loizeaux of Controlled Demolitions, Inc. on NOVA's website. They have an upcoming program about explosives called "Kaboom."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/kaboom/loizeaux.html

Note the use of the term "Pull," which is used in demolitions, but not in the way the CTs think.

ETA: the interview is from 1996.

[CptColumbo]

The White Sox win them all, of course. :D
No man the robots, then the robots, and then the robots.

Called them all.

[delphi_ote]

There's an interesting interview with Stacey Loizeaux of Controlled Demolitions, Inc. on NOVA's website. They have an upcoming program about explosives called "Kaboom."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/kaboom/loizeaux.html

Note the use of the term "Pull," which is used in demolitions, but not in the way the CTs think.

ETA: the interview is from 1996.
Fantastic, Gravy. This is why I love JREF. I'm always learning new stuff.

I think these quote is very interesting in context of 9/11 supposedly being a demolition job:
We will then ask them to perform preparatory operations, including non-load bearing partition removal—meaning, the dry wall that separates the rooms. It's not carrying the weight of the building. It's just there as a divider. But what happens—you know, if you have a case of beer—all the little cardboard reinforcements inside? If you have all those little cardboard reinforcements, then you can jump up and down on the case. But if you take them out, the case will crush under your weight. Those little partitions actually add up and act as stiffeners.
The second thing we do is drilling. Depending on the height of the structure, we'll work on a couple of different floors—usually anywhere from two to six. The taller the building, the higher up we work. We only really need to work on the first two floors, because—you can make the building come down that way.
How would all that work have been done in secret?!

[steve s]

How would all that work have been done in secret?!

It couldn't. But the Loosers always say "They would have done it at night when no one is there." What I'd like to find out is how many people worked in the WTC at night. I've been Googling but haven't been able to find out much of anything. The cleaning and maintenance staff must have been at least a couple hundred people. Add to that a couple dozen security guards. Then there's all the bankers and brokers who are there late at night doing business with people in Hong Kong and Tokyo. There must have been at least a few hundred people in each tower. Funny how none of them noticed the demo crews runnnig miles of det cord all over the place.

Steve S.

[delphi_ote]

It couldn't. But the Loosers always say "They would have done it at night when no one is there." What I'd like to find out is how many people worked in the WTC at night. I've been Googling but haven't been able to find out much of anything. The cleaning and maintenance staff must have been at least a couple hundred people. Add to a couple dozen security guards. Then there's all the bankers and brokers who are there late at night doing business with people in Hong Kong and Tokyo. There must have been at least a few hundred people in each tower. Funny how none of them noticed the demo crews runnnig miles of det cord all over the place.

Steve S.
And nobody pondered, "Hey. I wonder where all the walls went?"

[steve s]

I recently saw a program where they showed the prep work that went into a CD. They had guys with torches cutting notches into the steel beams to weaken them. Sparks were flying everywhere. That would have made a nice mess on the carpet, huh? Plus they had to have access directly to the beams. It boggles the mind that the Loosers think this could have been done.

Steve S.

[Kage]

Even if CD could be done with no one noticing beforehand or after, it STILL makes no sense. If I wanted to stage something on this scale why would I use a plane? I'd just put a small bomb in the basement and blame it on that. It would explain the trace amounts of explosives that WOULD be presents, as well as the primer caps and everything else. Of course, such items were not found, but I'm chunking up to show how this idea is really stupid.

I don't get why the buildings would be rigged to fall within their own footprints either. If the secondary explosives were set to achive maximum damage, why not have the buildings fall onto lower Manhattan? THAT would be maximum damage. In explaining why the buildings needed to fall within their own foundations, some sort of cogent motive needs to be explained as to why this was to the advantage of the "conspirators."

Instead of arguing with these people about CD, why not ask them to motivate their arguments? The conspirators would have to have both superhuman foresight and planning abilities, as well as be total morons. The resources used on 9/11 on the attacks would have been better deployed had the terrorists not wanted to make a symbolic statement. I'm not going to outline better uses for such resourses, but anyone with any understanding of American phsychology or American industry could do better. The idea of plane-into-building, CD-makes building-fall-perfectly-to-ground, and this-was-done-by-western-conspirators is way too Rube Goldberg.

[60hzxtl]

It couldn't. But the Loosers always say "They would have done it at night when no one is there." What I'd like to find out is how many people worked in the WTC at night. I've been Googling but haven't been able to find out much of anything. The cleaning and maintenance staff must have been at least a couple hundred people. Add to that a couple dozen security guards. Then there's all the bankers and brokers who are there late at night doing business with people in Hong Kong and Tokyo. There must have been at least a few hundred people in each tower. Funny how none of them noticed the demo crews runnnig miles of det cord all over the place.

Steve S.


I worked in the North tower on the 74th floor in the summer of 1975. The place was just about open, not fully occupied, and it was NEVER empty.

There was a bar on the 44th floor, the sky lobby where you changed elevators, called the Skydive, and in the South Tower there was Windows on the World, the classier restaurant. It's not like the last guy out every night pulled the door shut and handed the key to the night watchman. It was ALWAYS occupied.

The garbage in LC, about the marble coming off the walls? Well, since the elevators with severed cables had plummeted to the bottom of the shaft, blowing dirt and debris out, what 'like, hey, man Dylan' says is the 'signature of high explosives' is just dust, and the concussion of those HUGE elevator cars -- could that have been the reason the marble panels, mounted with construction glue fell off? Nah, musta been the bombs man!

[60hzxtl]

Lots of magical thinking going on over there and 'like, hey man Dylan' leads the way:

"if i'm compromising my integrity by respecting the wishes of both the Naudet Brothers AND the firefighters involved in their documentary, and by showing clear intention that my purpose in this movement is to help, not cause trouble, then i suppose i'm guilty."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=390

Respecting the wishes? How about, 'that's mine you stole it Dylan.' ?

They still don't have a clue over there about ownership and rights, and the stuff about "but, like, its educational man."

But they know all about CT, flying, and missiles. And Bush watching live from the Naudet's camera.


Prediction is that the Naudet's will present 'like, hey man Dylan' with a bill, plus legal charges, and he'll be screaming that's its censorship and blackmail - time to pile on FOX, CNN, etc. your stuff is up there too.


Yup, it ain't all limos and sunglasses Dylan.

[Gravy]

Lots of magical thinking going on over there and 'like, hey man Dylan' leads the way:
"if i'm compromising my integrity by respecting the wishes of both the Naudet Brothers AND the firefighters involved in their documentary, and by showing clear intention that my purpose in this movement is to help, not cause trouble, then i suppose i'm guilty."

Here's an interesting question. Since the copyright issue came up, about 20 people on the LC forum, including TheQuest, have accused the Naudets of being involved in a conspiracy. What are they going to do now that their hero Avery has surrendered to conspirators after a single warning shot across his bow?

[TjW]

Here's an interesting question. Since the copyright issue came up, about 20 people on the LC forum, including TheQuest, have accused the Naudets of being involved in a conspiracy. What are they going to do now that their hero Avery has surrendered to conspirators after a single warning shot across his bow?

I predict one of two things:
(a) the grapes will become very sour.
(b) It never happened, and will never be commented on again.

My initial reaction was that it would be (a), but now I'm leaning toward the close encounter of a lawyer kind pushing it toward (b).

[Gravy]

There's a fire vs. steel test that is referred to in FEMA's Building Performance Study and gets used a lot by CTs as a "gotcha!" factoid. It came up again in SBrown's "Jet Fuel" dump-and-run:

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."
Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).
Well, JREFer Dave_46 happens to know a great deal about those tests:

I was working in the Cardington laboratory for part of the time these tests were done, and was present at at least one of them. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1670969&postcount=42)

Man, I love this place. Thanks, Dave.

[Brainster]

Even if CD could be done with no one noticing beforehand or after, it STILL makes no sense. If I wanted to stage something on this scale why would I use a plane? I'd just put a small bomb in the basement and blame it on that. It would explain the trace amounts of explosives that WOULD be presents, as well as the primer caps and everything else. Of course, such items were not found, but I'm chunking up to show how this idea is really stupid.

I don't get why the buildings would be rigged to fall within their own footprints either. If the secondary explosives were set to achive maximum damage, why not have the buildings fall onto lower Manhattan? THAT would be maximum damage. In explaining why the buildings needed to fall within their own foundations, some sort of cogent motive needs to be explained as to why this was to the advantage of the "conspirators."

Instead of arguing with these people about CD, why not ask them to motivate their arguments? The conspirators would have to have both superhuman foresight and planning abilities, as well as be total morons. The resources used on 9/11 on the attacks would have been better deployed had the terrorists not wanted to make a symbolic statement. I'm not going to outline better uses for such resourses, but anyone with any understanding of American phsychology or American industry could do better. The idea of plane-into-building, CD-makes building-fall-perfectly-to-ground, and this-was-done-by-western-conspirators is way too Rube Goldberg.

Your mistake is looking at this logically and not backwards. CTers always reverse engineer the story, which is why it makes little sense looking at it straight on. The CT has to include the planes at the WTC because they were caught on tape, but they can't explain why the pilots would crash into them (hint: because they were Muslim fanatic hijackers), or even why a military team that might have taken the planes over would commit murder/suicide like that.

So they fall back on the drone planes theory. Same problem with the Pentagon; must have been a missile. But now we've got to bring the WTC down because the fake planes will eventually be discovered. Oh, and the cellphones had to be faked because if they weren't then there were actual hijackers.

See? All these things seem goofy when looked at directly, but if you understand the problems the CT encountered when exposed to the harsh light of day, you'd realize that this is the way these things evolve.

[Kage]

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

[sleahead]

The Avery moron gets it wrong again:

if i'm compromising my integrity by respecting the wishes of both the Naudet Brothers AND the firefighters involved in their documentary, and by showing clear intention that my purpose in this movement is to help, not cause trouble, then i suppose i'm guilty.

How can he compromise his integrity if he did not does not have any integrity to compromise? Copyright infringement, guilty. Loss of integrity, not guilty.

[Belz...]

Ballsy and stupid of these folks to send threats to an ATTORNEY.

This appears to be the crumbling of the house for Avery. All I need is a tub of popcorn, and I'll be set to watch this downward spiral...

Oh! I first read "house OF Avery".

I can see him fighting for Dune right now.

[60hzxtl]

The Avery moron gets it wrong again:



How can he compromise his integrity if he did not does not have any integrity to compromise? Copyright infringement, guilty. Loss of integrity, not guilty.

Because they are clueless over there - they think that you cannot copyright newsfootage - because, well, everybody saw it.

I bet it would come as a complete surprise to them if I tried to explain that as a writer of history, I cannot copyright a fact; e.g. Rudy Guliani was mayor of New York. But if I write the sentence, "Rudy Guliani came close to death on 9/11 when his entourage made a rapid exit from 7 WTC; part of his party took one path, and died, but the mayor, guided by his bodyguard, lived."

I can copyright that. If I do not protect and defend that copyright, I can lose it. The Naudet bros. are protecting their copyright, so as not to lose it.

"Like, man those guys are mean and stuff, why did they hafta get lawyers, why didn't they just ask us nice."

[Belz...]

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

Religious belief, plain and simple.

To them, it gives a purpose to their lives, I suppose.

[chipmunk stew]

Within 5 posts or so, one of the Admins had banned me for refusing to respond to his challenge, which concerned some weird article from the Washington Times in 1989 about a boy pedophile ring in the Reagan/Bush White House. It was classic trolling behavior--don't comment on the subject at hand, demand comment on a completely unrelated topic--and I told the guy to focus on Loose Change.Calls himself "TheQuest", right? This guy apparently went off the deep end years ago and never found his way back to shore.

[kookbreaker]

Calls himself "TheQuest", right? This guy apparently went off the deep end years ago and never found his way back to shore.

I don't think there was any water in that pool to begin with.

[aggle-rithm]

And nobody pondered, "Hey. I wonder where all the walls went?"

!!!!

So THAT'S why all the offices have been replaced by cubicle farms in the last ten years!

JUST IN CASE they want to fake a terrorist attack!

I'm taking the rest of the day off.

[aggle-rithm]

Lots of magical thinking going on over there and 'like, hey man Dylan' leads the way:

"if i'm compromising my integrity by respecting the wishes of both the Naudet Brothers AND the firefighters involved in their documentary, and by showing clear intention that my purpose in this movement is to help, not cause trouble, then i suppose i'm guilty."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=390

Respecting the wishes? How about, 'that's mine you stole it Dylan.' ?

They still don't have a clue over there about ownership and rights, and the stuff about "but, like, its educational man."

But they know all about CT, flying, and missiles. And Bush watching live from the Naudet's camera.


Prediction is that the Naudet's will present 'like, hey man Dylan' with a bill, plus legal charges, and he'll be screaming that's its censorship and blackmail - time to pile on FOX, CNN, etc. your stuff is up there too.


Yup, it ain't all limos and sunglasses Dylan.

It's always so sad when ugly reality crushes a beautiful fantasy... :(

[Shrinker]

Is this their big NYPD coverup (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5200)? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.
Just been listening to the recordings. How tiresome. The whole thing is built upon the idea that the truck exploded and the explosion was covered up. The recordings don't show that it exploded, just that somebody thought it had exploded (he even follows it up with 'is that correct?'). Yet more quote mining in chaotic situations. Idiots.

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

[aggle-rithm]

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

Unfortunately, logic has no effect on them. However, they seem to have an irrational fear of lawsuits (strange, since they're apparently not afraid of the murderous, omnipotent government).

[Kiwiwriter]

Is this their big NYPD coverup (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5200)? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.


Of course...when in doubt, just blame the Jews. It's been working for humanity for 2006 years.

"Goyim kill goyim, and they come to hang the Jews," Menachem Begin said, in one of his harsher momens. Sometimes he was right. :mad:

[Kiwiwriter]

It couldn't. But the Loosers always say "They would have done it at night when no one is there." What I'd like to find out is how many people worked in the WTC at night. I've been Googling but haven't been able to find out much of anything. The cleaning and maintenance staff must have been at least a couple hundred people. Add to that a couple dozen security guards. Then there's all the bankers and brokers who are there late at night doing business with people in Hong Kong and Tokyo. There must have been at least a few hundred people in each tower. Funny how none of them noticed the demo crews runnnig miles of det cord all over the place.

Steve S.

One of Mike Sheridan's many points...contrary to the conspiracy theories, the WTC was never "empty." There were always occupied offices in it, and an army of maintenance and security people. The tourist areas were certainly closed late at night, but the bombs were obviously not placed on the roof.

If these conspiracy theories weren't so dreadful, such insults to the dead, and believed by so many people who regard urban legends, conspiracy theories, and Comedy Central as legitimate sources of information, they would be laughable. I try to laugh anyway. :boggled:

[Kiwiwriter]

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

They do two things:

First, they validate the theorist's pre-existing views (prejudices) about the world, his favorite enemies, and his paranoia. They put flesh on his theoretical bones.

Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.

[60hzxtl]

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

Things were in CHAOS in NY, with all sorts of rumors flying.

I would bet a mortgage payment that it was simply a Uhaul truck with the NYC paint scheme, which would have included the skyline and the Statue of Liberty and maybe a jet flying TO not at them.

http://www.uhaul.com/trucks/

I love it at the Loser's side when a single quote negates everything else is happening.


I Feeeeeel that it was. . .

[Hutch]

Is this their big NYPD coverup (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5200)? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.


Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum. :jaw-dropp :catfight: :yikes:

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]

[Flo]

Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum. :jaw-dropp :catfight: :yikes:

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]


Add Cleopatra to the mix ... :D

[Gravy]

Just been listening to the recordings. How tiresome. The whole thing is built upon the idea that the truck exploded and the explosion was covered up. The recordings don't show that it exploded, just that somebody thought it had exploded (he even follows it up with 'is that correct?'). Yet more quote mining in chaotic situations. Idiots.

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.
There were no bombs found anywhere, and certainly no truck bomb. Of course police were stopping trucks: remember that early on, many people thought it was a bomb, not an airplane, that damaged WTC 1. Remember also the 1993 bombing. Nothing could be more expected than for police to report that they saw a suspicious rental truck. They were suspicious of EVERY rental truck. Avery and DJLegacy spent two days on that theory! I wonder if they sent away for the blueprints of the truck: I hear you can get them for 128 Red Bull proofs-of-purchase.

If this is the kind of material they're gathering for the new version, I'm licking my chops.

[Manny]

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.Yeah, I kind of gave away the ending to DJ in that thread. I walked by King Street. Hell, probably half a million people walked by King Street. And I live just a few blocks north. There wasn't an explosion which left any trace worth noticing -- I suppose a truck's engine could have caught fire or somesuch.

We shall see if they learn from their mistakes. He's already gone off half-cocked and decided it's the Mossad and that NYPD is covering up the murders of 23 of their own, but he also say's he's "looking into it." I gave him the number of the local precinct, and a map of the area. Throwing "King St. New York, NY" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22king+st.+new+york%2C+ny%22&btnG=Search) into Google returns several businesses on that block or nearby. He knows someone's watching over his shoulder; let's see if that improves his "research" technique.

[Hellbound]

Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.

You know, I wonder if this isn't more true than you might think :)

Compare the official story to the CT:

1. Official story. The collapse is explained, but details on how 19 terrorists got into the country, resided here for an extended time, got flight training, and highjacked the planes are still incomplete. And these 19 were the tip of the iceberg, part of a large, distributed organization that is global, whose members we've only identified a portion of, and a leader that we aren't sure is alive or dead, and can't seem to track down. Our billion dollar defense systems and border guards and checks and such failed to stop a handful of low-tech threats. The most deadly military hardware didn't make a difference.

2. CTer version: We know exactly what happened. We know who did it (the government), why (excuse for war), and where they are (Washington). Our defense system didn't fail, it was intentionally disabled. 19 highjackers did not get into the country and hide amongst the populace. Our military and border guards are impregnable, except when they don't want to be.

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

[Belz...]

Of course...when in doubt, just blame the Jews. It's been working for humanity for 2006 years.

Methinks it's been working for a lot longer than that.

No explanation why, of course.

[Manny]

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.That's absolutely the attraction of CTs to at least some people. The just don't want to believe that the world is a random, chaotic place where weird stuff happens despite what we think are precautions against them. They want a world where somebody, somewhere, is in control even if that somebody is sometimes malevolent. (Insert shot at religion here.)

Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum. :jaw-dropp :catfight: :yikes:

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]Heh. Heh. Heh.

In other Bugs Bunny news, I was at a bar this weekend called the Spuyten Duyvel, which I used to think was just something funny which Bugs Bunny said. As it happens, the bar (http://spuytenduyvilnyc.com/) is no where near the actual Spuyten Duyvil (http://www.washington-heights.us/history/archives/spuyten_duyvil_creek_23.html), but their beer selection more than makes up for any geographic confusion they may cause.

[Gravy]

...I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.
I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder. I think we need geggy to explain this: something about the shock of 9/11 "closing the frontal lobes" of CTs.

eta: That was a rhetorical device, geggy. Your services are not needed.

[60hzxtl]

Yeah, . He's already gone off half-cocked and decided it's the Mossad and that NYPD is covering up the murders of 23 of their own, but he also say's he's "looking into it."


Geeeze Manny you just don't get it.

He's looking into it.

If he never finds it, it's a cover up.

Chase shadows and pukas all day and you never catch 'em.

Chase real bad guys and then you have a trial.

I'm still waiting for anything besides hearsay, or 'looks like', from someone who was never - ever there. Has no idea of the scale of the place, but has Feeeeeelings.

Can't wait for all the Perry Mason's over there to get to the next legal phase.

[rwguinn]

You know, I wonder if this isn't more true than you might think :)

Compare the official story to the CT:
(Reality snipped for brevity)
2. CTer version: We know exactly what happened. We know who did it (the government), why (excuse for war), and where they are (Washington). Our defense system didn't fail, it was intentionally disabled. 19 highjackers did not get into the country and hide amongst the populace. Our military and border guards are impregnable, except when they don't want to be.

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

I wouldn't necessarily simplify it as "simple incompetence/inability/mistakes", although mistakes comes close. Our Constitution and our society make such acts inevitable for those who are determined to harm us.
Our society is an open one, based on trust, which leans toward acceptance. You don't have to show an ID card/papers/permission slip to make a move--or at least, you didn't up until 911. The rock our society sits on is based on a lack of suspicion--innocence until proven guilty, prior restraint is illegal, have a nice day--all that stuff that makes for freedom is our foundation--and it is true, regardless of all the alfalfa you see on the news and read in print. It does work.
Unfortunately, such acts work to erode the trust and acceptance. A closed society will not allow these things to happen, through use of prior restraint, detention based on suspicion--whatever. We have way too much border to observe and defend to keep determined people out, so repression within is about the only way to make sure those who are charged with "Protect and Serve" duties can stop such acts. It has amazed me, the number of people willing to surrender som of my rights so that they can "feel" safe...

"Security X Freedom=constant. Unfortunately, that constant is different for everybody" Gordon R. Dickson

[dubfan]

I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder.

There's a thread over there now about a video that apparently shows someone in one of the towers on the phone, just prior to collapse. The video is synchronized to an audio recording of the phone call and it apparently goes right up to the collapse. By the descriptions given, the last few seconds are horrific. So the reactions over there are partly as you would expect -- shock, horror, distress, sadness. And anger, white-hot anger -- at George Bush.

I'm not going to dignify it with a link.

[Dave_46]

Gravy, thanks from you are very much appreciated if undeserved. As I said I was working in the Cardington laboratory on other work while those tests were being performed. For part of the time I was helping develop a test for the fire performance of external cladding systems (yes, totally irrelevant to the thread). The lab was basically a large corruated steel shed/hangar, originally built for airships. It is the southern one of a pair which can be clearly seen south of Bedford (UK). If you use Google Earth, it is at 52deg 06 min 32 sec North, 0 deg 25 min 16 sec West. Inside the hangar was the eight storey high steel framed building, a seven storey high concrete building and a six storey timber frame building, all constructed for structural and fire tests.

On a separate subject I was skimming the loose change discussion board (I don't do more than skim) and it seems to me that when they are discussing fire resistance testing they don't really have much idea what the purpose, and limitations of those tests are.

Dave

[chipmunk stew]

9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.

I don't know about any of you guys but I have been having one difficult time trying to discuss this subject (the subject of 9/11 and what really happened) to anyone -- I include in this group of people who would rather not hear me: my wife, my adult son (age 37), my three daughters (all adults), and a few friends (a couple of whom I can't fault as they were being polite in an exchange of conversational points on the subject but they also couldn't wait to leave the BBQ most quickly after I brought up the subject).

[60hzxtl]

9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.


Poor ol' Jerry seems to need an intervention there!

He tried to hook up with an old girl friend with LC and she wasn't seduced!

(Does she have a tomcat basher too? I've learned not to play with Fire!)

He doesn't want help. He wants to be adored. (See previous Feeeelings comments.)

He wants to be the smartest person in the room - and there's a bin of 'em over there, chasing nothing, hoping to catch it, or be the latest one to see it.

[dubfan]

What is the most powerful evidence? Facts only! (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=332)

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[delphi_ote]

I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder.
There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.

[chipmunk stew]

Poor ol' Jerry seems to need an intervention there!

He tried to hook up with an old girl friend with LC and she wasn't seduced!

(Does she have a tomcat basher too? I've learned not to play with Fire!)

He doesn't want help. He wants to be adored. (See previous Feeeelings comments.)

He wants to be the smartest person in the room - and there's a bin of 'em over there, chasing nothing, hoping to catch it, or be the latest one to see it.Another relationship headed for collapse:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5239&view=findpost&p=4916842

[delphi_ote]

9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.
That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.

[Regnad Kcin]

delphi ote, your post #963 above is well spoken, as usual.

Another relationship headed for collapse:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5239&view=findpost&p=4916842
And immediately after hers, KILL YOUR TV! and jenabell contributed posts that make me want to spontaneously combust. Well, except for the fact it wouldn't be spontaneous, I suppose. Willfully combust! Intentionally combust!

Flame on!

[bob_kark]

That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.

If I was at home, I'd love to accept the mission. The LC forum is blocked at work for some crazy reason.

[aggle-rithm]

That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.

"Advice" from the forum:

I had a similar experience. The Key here is to never to speak about possible theories, or "what really happened" but just to underline the questions.

The Key to what? Driving your loved ones insane?

[Manny]

If I was at home, I'd love to accept the mission. The LC forum is blocked at work for some crazy reason.Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5126) The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.

[60hzxtl]

I also just got a spyware notice when over there.

[Regnad Kcin]

What is the most powerful evidence? Facts only! (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=332)

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.Dear Loose Change forum member:

Please take a moment and register at the JREF. Then, in this thread (or what will likely be the soon to be started Pt. 17) post your "fact(s)" or question, one at a time, sticking as best you can to the subject of your choosing. You will enjoy thoughtful and interesting discussion, likely to challenge not only your point, or belief, but also your critical thinking methods.

Be advised you will not be banned (as long as you adhere to the fair and impartial forum rules), but you will no doubt be treated with a high degree of tenacity. Unsupported allegations, innuendo, leading questions, logical fallacies, and other techniques will no doubt be pointed out to you. As you should if you encounter them here or anywhere else.

This is not a "challenge," but rather an invitation. The welcome mat is out.

RK

[Gravy]

If I was at home, I'd love to accept the mission. The LC forum is blocked at work for some crazy reason.
Man, they've really chumped the kark over there!

[kookbreaker]

Man, they've really chumped the kark over there!

/Throws rocks at Gravy

[bob_kark]

Man, they've really chumped the kark over there!

Wow, that was bad enough for me to laugh.:D

[Ramooone]

That's absolutely the attraction of CTs to at least some people. The just don't want to believe that the world is a random, chaotic place where weird stuff happens despite what we think are precautions against them. They want a world where somebody, somewhere, is in control even if that somebody is sometimes malevolent. (Insert shot at religion here.)

Heh. Heh. Heh.

In other Bugs Bunny news, I was at a bar this weekend called the Spuyten Duyvel, which I used to think was just something funny which Bugs Bunny said. As it happens, the bar (http://spuytenduyvilnyc.com/) is no where near the actual Spuyten Duyvil (http://www.washington-heights.us/history/archives/spuyten_duyvil_creek_23.html), but their beer selection more than makes up for any geographic confusion they may cause.

thats one of my favorite bars to go to. i've probably seen you there and didnt notice hahaha.

[Belz...]

What is the most powerful evidence? Facts only! (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=332)

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I particularily like this quote from our beloved "TheQuest":

3. What are the chances that THREE buildinds 'collapsed' in their own footprint on 911 within hours of each other, suppossedly due to fire when it had not even happened ONCE before! With odds like that, buy your lottery tickets now.

This doesn't even start to make sense. Obviously, every single event in history, with all its little details, only occured once. Crash two airliners into 110 storey buildings for the first time and you're bound to end up with a precedent.

ETA: I also like the "someone is covering for someone" comment, as according to their theory, EVERYONE is covering for EVERYONE, which makes the troothers a little out of the loop.

[Belz...]

There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.

Very well said, Delphi... I mean... master. 100% agreed. Now where's that LC laughing smiley...

[Hellbound]

So true, Belz.

I mean, what are the chances that MANY nuclear warheads were set off at DIFFERENT times in MULTIPLE places, all of DIFFERING construction and ALL of the resulting explosions produced IDENTICAL mushroom clouds, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

What are the chances that SEVERAL fixed-wing aircraft 'flew' a short distance within months of each other, supposedly due to inventors working on the problems, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

Of course, I am part of THE CONSPIRACY, so can't be trusted :)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So true, Belz.

I mean, what are the chances that MANY nuclear warheads were set off at DIFFERENT times in MULTIPLE places, all of DIFFERING construction and ALL of the resulting explosions produced IDENTICAL mushroom clouds, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

What are the chances that SEVERAL fixed-wing aircraft 'flew' a short distance within months of each other, supposedly due to inventors working on the problems, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

Of course, I am part of THE CONSPIRACY, so can't be trusted :)

It's like some perverse mutation of the Gambler's Fallacy.

[ob986s]

There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.


That is precisely what I have been thinking about this "Truth" movement. How long is it before one of these guys, fueled on by their idiot fellow "truthers" actually harms someone. I honestly believe that it is only a matter of time at this point.

[JamesB]

It should be no surprise that family members wouldn't buy this. Even the family members of the producers of the film don't buy it.

In part, thanks to "Loose Change 2," evidence of flaws in the 9/11 Commission's report has reached mainstream news. Yet some Americans continue to scoff. Why? "Some people just can't see it," says Bermas. Bermas tried to show "Loose Change 2" to his family, but "they just left the room. They just couldn't watch it."

This is available at Screw Loose Change, since I can't post a link yet.

[XXX]

Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5126) The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.

Yea, it's pretty clear that all the guy's buddys are the mods and admins over there.

I wounder if when you sign up as a part of the user agreement they agree not to post personal info. I'm thinking the admin doing that could get him into trouble.

[60hzxtl]

It should be no surprise that family members wouldn't buy this. Even the family members of the producers of the film don't buy it.
In part, thanks to "Loose Change 2," evidence of flaws in the 9/11 Commission's report has reached mainstream news. Yet some Americans continue to scoff. Why? "Some people just can't see it," says Bermas. Bermas tried to show "Loose Change 2" to his family, but "they just left the room. They just couldn't watch it."
.



I guess that means he has the basement of mom's house to himself again. . .

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5126) The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.

A couple other funny things about that thread.

Roxdog taking offense at my suggestion that Fred Phelps and his peons should be beaten silly by a platoon of angry marines. How insane do you have to get that you'll start standing up for the "God hates f_gs" idiots?

I seem to have been banned for trolling the trolling section.

Finalstrikes claim that I will someday have an epiphany, wake up and be converted to thier silly cult...

...as soon as they can demonstrate the existence of a technology that can teleport 40,000 explosive charges through 1.25 million tons of steel, concrete and drywall without disturbing interior surfaces in a space of 36 hours, that is. :p

[Pardalis]

Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.

I think you summarized it perfectly there. 9/11 was such a traumatic event, such an huge and horrible act of hatred, that it is dificult to grasp. To this day, I don't understand it myself. I think the world hasn't made sense of it yet either. I think humankind maybe never will completely. For some people, as you said, try desperatly to put meaning to it. That's what the CT are doing because they can't acknowledge the horrible fact that human beings can be monsters. So they invent a large invisible evil organisation to explain everything, to place the blame on somethig that doesn't have a face.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think you summarized it perfectly there. 9/11 was such a traumatic event, such an huge and horrible act of hatred, that it is dificult to grasp. To this day, I don't understand it myself. I think the world hasn't made sense of it yet either. I think humankind maybe never will completely. For some people, as you said, try desperatly to put meaning to it. That's what the CT are doing because they can't acknowledge the horrible fact that human beings can be monsters. So they invent a large invisible evil organisation to explain everything, to place the blame on somethig that doesn't have a face.

Thing is, they often then end up putting a face on their invisible evil organization.

[Pardalis]

I think we need geggy to explain this: something about the shock of 9/11 "closing the frontal lobes" of CTs.

I still haven't got over that one. It really freaked me out!:eek:

[Mongrel]

Wow - They're starting to sound like the fundies as well

"dude hasnt had self realisation yet thats all" from Swords' thread and
And finding the answers yourself is the only way some people "See the light" from the family thread, Bleh.

On another note if you're worried about them broadcasting your IP address then an Anonymiser site (http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm) should be able to assist.

**Warning**
Make sure you're chummy with your network manager first, if you can access the site. They're often blocked for very good reasons. If you wish to use things like this at home make sure you have a couple of spyware apps running, there are dubious uses for this and some places it shows.

[Pardalis]

Another relationship headed for collapse:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5239&view=findpost&p=4916842

I kind of have the same problem with a few of my friends. I was watching a hockey game with a friend when during the break somehow we got to talking about the movie "United 93". I was shocked at the violence of his reaction when he said that these passengers were probably inventions of the US government propaganda. I was so shocked that I couldn't say anything, I just stood there in awe. Fortunately the hockey game resumed and we never talked about it again. Now every time the conversation even comes close to the 9/11 events, I just change the subject. I really value this friend but I really am surprised that paranoia can be get to an intelligent person so easily.

[bob_kark]

On another note if you're worried about them broadcasting your IP address then an Anonymiser site (http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm) should be able to assist.

**Warning**
Make sure you're chummy with your network manager first, if you can access the site. They're often blocked for very good reasons. If you wish to use things like this at home make sure you have a couple of spyware apps running, there are dubious uses for this and some places it shows.

There are other programs you can use that bounce your IP address around a few times to make it difficult to trace. I've used Ghostsurf before, it limits what websites you go to, but AFAIK it has been effective.

[Pardalis]

Thing is, they often then end up putting a face on their invisible evil organization.

Yeah, it often ends up being Bush's face, but I think they just use him as a scapegoat. The "They" the CTs are always referring to are rather faceless, multi-national, multi-generational and all encompassing, wich makes "Them" virtually impossible to catch. So whatever happens next, whatever important event occurs, it will surely be "Their" doing.

ETA: Like Delphi noted, it's a really simplistic way of seeing things, and intellectually lazy. The real sick result of all this is that the real perpetrators avoid accountablility for their actions this way.

[geggy]

sighs I feel sorry for you people...

Read this...

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/grove.html

This is serious...!!

[bob_kark]

sighs I feel sorry for you people...

Read this...

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/grove.html

This is serious...!!

WooT!!

[60hzxtl]

sighs I feel sorry for you people...

Read this...

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/grove.html

This is serious...!!


That tears it!

Was It bombs that pulled it and the missile, and released the anthrax, which resulted in memory loss of melted metal in WTC paid for by the black pope and the Naudet brothers knew, because they were in on it?


But hey, I'm just asking questions.

[geggy]

Wow bobkark that was a quick response. I doubt you even clicked on the link.

Unless you took up speed reading courses.

[delphi_ote]

That is precisely what I have been thinking about this "Truth" movement. How long is it before one of these guys, fueled on by their idiot fellow "truthers" actually harms someone. I honestly believe that it is only a matter of time at this point.
These types of groups tend to attract the frustrated and disenchanted members of society, peel them away from people who aren't like minded, and then fill their heads with more and more preposterous ideas. Having that many unquestioning believers together with the mentally unstable is like storing gasoline and a box of matches in a 3rd grade classroom where the teacher is on vacation.

[60hzxtl]

Wow bobkark that was a quick response. I doubt you even clicked on the link.

Unless you took up speed reading courses.


Maybe we KNEW in advance you'd be there, and read it IN ADVANCE.

[delphi_ote]

sighs I feel sorry for you people...
Why? Flesh out this idea a little more. Tell us how you really feel.

[geggy]

That tears it!

Was It bombs that pulled it and the missile, and released the anthrax, which resulted in memory loss of melted metal in WTC paid for by the black pope and the Naudet brothers knew, because they were in on it?


But hey, I'm just asking questions.

Mock mock mock

It's no wonder why you can't see the obviousness of the us government's complicity in sept 11, joker.

[WildCat]

sighs I feel sorry for you people...

Read this...

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/grove.html

This is serious...!!
Don't you have to be an insider to be a whistleblower? He's not a whistleblower, just another loony CT'er whe can't speak clearly or get to the point of his argument.

The inability to write a coherent paragraph seems to be the norm for CT'ers for some reason. Perhaps that reason is to disguise the fact that there is no actual evidence for the CT?