Loose Change - Part II

[SBrown]

Let us know what you find out, okay?
Why do you keep repeating that?

[WildCat]

So the whole Pentagon restricted airspace thing is a farce?
IIRC, Reagan Int'l was closed for some time after 9/11 while security concerns were debated. Closing it permanently was even an option. I have no doubt airspace was/is now restricted around it, but really if a plane on its way to Reagan Int'l was hijacked and the hijackers managed to keep it secret from the FAA it would be quite easy to divert to the Pentagon at the last minute and crash into it - it would only take a few seconds of diversion from the flight path. Not much chance of stopping it at that point.

[Gravy]

This is probabbly just BS then:
Um. SBrown, that's an ABMS they're talking about there.

[WildCat]

This is probabbly just BS then:
Why?

[Gravy]

Why do you keep repeating that?
Because you're only getting part of the answer and acting as if you have it all.

[SBrown]

IIRC, Reagan Int'l was closed for some time after 9/11 while security concerns were debated. Closing it permanently was even an option. I have no doubt airspace was/is now restricted around it, but really if a plane on its way to Reagan Int'l was hijacked and the hijackers managed to keep it secret from the FAA it would be quite easy to divert to the Pentagon at the last minute and crash into it - it would only take a few seconds of diversion from the flight path. Not much chance of stopping it at that point.

Wait a minute, I believe the Pentagon has always had a restricted airspace. Are you saying that it only had one directly after the attacks on Sept 11th?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

A Pilot’s Guide to Understanding Restrictions in Today’s National Airspace System by Michael W. Brown http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:dy38-yrwO1oJ:www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf+what+is+the+normal+response+to+restrict ed+air+space+violations+over+washington+dc&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

[Gravy]

Wait a minute, I believe the Pentagon has always had a restricted airspace. Are you saying that it only had one directly after the attacks on Sept 11th?
So you're jumping to the conclusion that restricted airspaces automatically have missile defense systems?
ETA: Like sports stadiums?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The US does not have a "shoot first ask questions later" policy on restricted air space violations. Even now, after 9/11, the newest system being implemented in DC is a laser light warning system to alert pilots that they have violated air space.

[SBrown]

So you're jumping to the conclusion that restricted airspaces automatically have missile defense systems?
Nope where did you get that idea?

[Gravy]

Nope where did you get that idea?
From you, SBrown.

[WildCat]

So you're jumping to the conclusion that restricted airspaces automatically have missile defense systems?
ETA: Like sports stadiums?
The airspace over Disney World is restricted. I'm pretty sure Goofy will shoot you down w/ some sort of Mickey Mouse laser gun if you enter it.

[SBrown]

From you, SBrown.
How
from what
where

??

[SBrown]

The airspace over Disney World is restricted. I'm pretty sure Goofy will shoot you down w/ some sort of Mickey Mouse laser gun if you enter it.
You are the one that said they could not have a missile defense because pattern to Reagen would bring them in danger.

[Regnad Kcin]

More "questions" from the CT-ists, I see.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

How
from what
where

??


OK I am stumped in an argument with someone and I have no answer for.

Why did the Pentagons missile defense system not react when the 757 entered its airspace?

--
Of course. They had to have had one. A stupid frigate has multiple ones. The Pentagon is the heart of our national defense. Why would they not have one?
--
So I guess if they were testing one in 2002, they didnt have one in 2001....right?
--
So the whole Pentagon restricted airspace thing is a farce?
--
Wait a minute, I believe the Pentagon has always had a restricted airspace. Are you saying that it only had one directly after the attacks on Sept 11th?

From your series of posts.

[Gravy]

How
from what
where

??
Do you have something productive to add here?

[ob986s]

So the whole Pentagon restricted airspace thing is a farce?

Pretty much yeah

go check google maps or google earth whichever

Pull up the satellite view of Reagan national airport, zoom in on runway marked 15, scroll north - northwest and tell me if you think. How could you have restricted airspace at the end of a runway?

or even better jump on a flight to DC, I was their 3 months ago, flew in and out of Reagan. Make sure you get a window seat. Flew close enough to the Pentagon to freak me out a bit. maybe I am still suffering the "frontal lobe" thing geggy ranted about

Jon

[SBrown]

Do you have something productive to add here?


Do you?

[Regnad Kcin]

I believe the Pentagon had and has a defense system: freaking big reinforced walls.

[WildCat]

You are the one that said they could not have a missile defense because pattern to Reagen would bring them in danger.
Disney World is nowhere near Reagan. That's why Goofy will shoot you down. Just try it buster!

[SBrown]

Wildcat is the one that said planes pass over the Pentagon so they could not have a MD. I asked about the restricted airspace. Is this a farce?

[SBrown]

Disney World is nowhere near Reagan. That's why Goofy will shoot you down. Just try it buster!


Is this some kind of joke?

[XXX]

Not to mention that, as others have said, there is lots of air traffic around there, even close to the Pentagon airspace. Before the crash, a few other planes that were approaching the Pentagon that they thought might be hostile turned out not to be, so they already had some "false hits" (for lack of a better term).

A lot of our defenses are set up for an outside attack. If hostile enemy aircraft was coming in from the atlantic ocean and heading for the Pentagon, you damn well better bet that it would get shot down before it reached there. 9/11 was just such a different situation, a very difficult one to pick out what is a threat and what isn't with limited info at hand. God forbid you shoot down a civilian airliner that wasn't hostile!

[Gravy]

Do you?
Yes. I offer you the opportunity to read the literature that's linked in my sig.

I also encourage you to read your last posts here, and consider how they sound to others.

[Regnad Kcin]

SBrown, just for giggles, let's say the Pentagon has restricted airspace. So what?

[realitybites]

Do you?

Once more, the "I know you are but what am I" phase of the CT argument has been reached.

[WildCat]

Wildcat is the one that said planes pass over the Pentagon so they could not have a MD. I asked about the restricted airspace. Is this a farce?
Restricted air space ≠ missile defense system, as has been pointed out to you. Do you understand that, or are you just here to troll?

[XXX]

More "questions" from the CT-ists, I see.

It's a pretty good question actually. I've never had a problem with questions, I only have a problem when you give the answers and people refuse to accept them.

[WildCat]

Is this some kind of joke?
Absolutely not! Why do you think those costumes are so big? Snow White has a Stinger launcher under her skirt, and Donald Duck has been known to tote a RPG launcher. Can't be too careful nowadays.

[SBrown]

Restricted air space ≠ missile defense system, as has been pointed out to you. Do you understand that, or are you just here to troll?

But your point was they could not BECAUSE they fly over the Pentagon. I say they do not fly over the Pentagon becuse it is restricted airspace.

[SBrown]

Absolutely not! Why do you think those costumes are so big? Snow White has a Stinger launcher under her skirt, and Donald Duck has been known to tote a RPG launcher. Can't be too careful nowadays.


Are you drunk?
Why do you keep bringing up Disneyland?
How old are you?

[realitybites]

Restricted air space ≠ missile defense system, as has been pointed out to you. ....

I believe on 9/11, once it was known what was going on, the airspace over New York became restricted.

I don't recall the missile defense systems hidden within the World Financial Center all of a sudden popping out with guns blazin'.

Although, admittedly, that woulda' been hella-cool. :cool:

[WildCat]

But your point was they could not BECAUSE they fly over the Pentagon. I say they do not fly over the Pentagon becuse it is restricted airspace.
Where did I say they could not? Planes landing and taking off from Reagan fly over it hundreds of times a day.

[60hzxtl]

Also, what goes up, must come down.

Missle from Pentagon, intecepts bad flying object that falls to earth . . . just where?

[SBrown]

Damn I just got laughed at because the approach path does not take airlines anywhere near the Pentagon!

I thought you guys where up on this subject?

[Gravy]

Damn I just got laughed at because the approach path does not take airlines anywhere near the Pentagon!

I thought you guys where up on this subject?
Why did you think that?

[WildCat]

Are you drunk?
Why do you keep bringing up Disneyland?
How old are you?
Point being is that the airspace over Disney World is restricted (http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/asset_summary/asset_summary_multi_image_with_table_0290.xml). The stuff about the Disney characters toting military weapons was just to make the point, in a humorous way, that this doesn't mean there is a missile defense system in place there.

[60hzxtl]

Damn I just got laughed at because the approach path does not take airlines anywhere near the Pentagon!

I thought you guys where up on this subject?


OK guys - welcome sbrown and relax - its been a giddy day around here.

sbrown asked a question and got bad directions about a press notice saying "Pentagon" announces, etc.

Cruisers and Destroyers have missle defense systems because that's what they do for a living - the Pentagon well, see above about what goes up, must come down.

[Gravy]

OK guys - welcome sbrown and relax - its been a giddy day around here.

sbrown asked a question and got bad directions about a press notice saying "Pentagon" announces, etc.

Cruisers and Destroyers have missle defense systems because that's what they do for a living - the Pentagon well, see above about what goes up, must come down.
That's very diplomatic, for a guy from Brooklyn.

[WildCat]

Damn I just got laughed at because the approach path does not take airlines anywhere near the Pentagon!
Yes, it does. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=washington+dc&ll=38.863905,-77.050037&spn=0.024828,0.053558&t=k&om=1)

[Gravy]

Yes, it does. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=washington+dc&ll=38.863905,-77.050037&spn=0.024828,0.053558&t=k&om=1)
Interesting. According to that map it's a little over 4,000 feet from the end of the runway to the Pentagon.

[60hzxtl]

That's very diplomatic, for a guy from Brooklyn.


Yeah, but I can't park anywhere I like.

[XXX]

Yes, it sounds like the person you are talking to SBrown thinks all these things about the Pentagon (you can't fly overhead or near it, it has an auto-defense system) is someone who just thinks it has to be that way and hasn't done the necessary research.

As I said, they already were on alert after a few "false hits" beforehand. Think about this. You've seen how close they are thanks to the previous links, right? When air traffic controlers are jammed and they put LOTS of planes into a holding pattern, where do you think those planes go?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Please check this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/21/AR2005072101930.html

Restricted air space incursions are relatively regular in DC. Having a MDS would end up with a civilian plane getting shot down. That is why they can, and do, send fighter jets to intercept the incursions. My link in post #1257 goes in to great detail about what civilian pilots need to know about restricted air spaces, especially over DC.

[Regnad Kcin]

More "questions" from the CT-ists, I see.It's a pretty good question actually. I've never had a problem with questions, I only have a problem when you give the answers and people refuse to accept them.I agree with you for the most part, and if SBrown meant no harm, all well and good.

Perhaps I'm a bit touchy, but so many CT questions sound reasonable at first but tend to the over simplistic. I'll guess that they are meant less to gain information or insight and more to produce a measure of doubt on the part of the audience. Let's look at the one we're discussing:

"Doesn't the Pentagon have a missile defense system?"

Hmm, seems like they should. It's the Pentagon, the nation's center for defense. Defense is what goes on there. Why, they must have the best defense that budgetary dollars can buy! The best in the world!

But hey, they were attacked. Successfully, too. Something's not right here. Somthing's not right here at all...

You see? The question is suggestive.

Now, I can't prove that SBrown is up to shenanigans with his/her "question" without more info or a display of a continued pattern of behavior (see: geggy). For your reminder of this basic requirement of discourse, thanks.

[Gravy]

This graphic is instructive: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/07/22/GR2005072200108.html

"No-fly zone" in that context means only regularly-scheduled commercial flights can fly there.

[R.Mackey]

Oh, brother.

I suppose at this point we might do our visitors a service, and pre-emptively point out that the Pentagon also does not have a battalion of combat Marines to protect against ground troops, a squadron of tanks, its own fighter wing, etc., in addition to its non-existent anti-aircraft guns or missiles.

Just because it's involved with the military does not mean it's built for combat. It's an office building. It has relatively little tactical military value. Aside from security issues, it's just not that special. Passive measures only.

Otherwise, they would never have built it in such a sensitive area. If you're expecting the heavy heat, you build out in the middle of nowhere, like Cheyenne Mountain or Malmstrom Air Force Base. It would seriously suck to repel an attack, only to have the Capitol wiped out by near misses.

And people are laughing because you should be able to answer these questions for yourself. I would fail a fourth-grade research report that made such assertions. Nothing personal, we like to help, but you must also participate in your own education.

[Regnad Kcin]

Funny, I almost made the exact same post, R.Mackey. Well, the 'office building' part, anyway. You fleshed it out rather well.

[JamesB]

There are plenty of high quality commercially available aerial photographs available out there, google maps and such. Could someone please point out the anti-aircraft batteries surrounding the Pentagon? Or are they hidden by the Klingon cloaking devices?

[dubfan]

Well, about 99.5% of the reason for keeping up with the LC forum just went out the window (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5317&view=findpost&p=4965891).

[Gravy]

Well, about 99.5% of the reason for keeping up with the LC forum just went out the window (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5317&view=findpost&p=4965891).
DJLegacy's response seems about right:
LOL,
Yeah I forget sometimes that this forum is full of 16 and under....as our poll shows lol...
I swear some people on here haven't seen a girl before

[joseph k.]

JamesB...

I'd imagine, since you are looking into whether there's batteries included at the pentagon or not, you'd probably have seen this:

Pentagon arms missile batteries around D.C.

For the first time since the Cuban missile crisis almost 40 years ago, armed missile launchers will be protecting the nation's capital by day's end Tuesday -- a precaution that comes amid a heightened alert status on the eve of the one-year anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
...
The Pentagon says for "security and deterrent" reason it will not discuss the exact location of the air defense sites, but one Army Avenger missile system can be seen outside the Pentagon....
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/10/ar911.air.defense/

I'd have to concur that some auto-respond solution seems quite foolish, given the pentagon's location. If you are still wondering why Gravy seems to be curt with you, perhaps its because you don't seem to have delved into 911myths or any of the other debunking sites and are asking leading questions that obviously tip your hand.

edit-clarity

[dubfan]

Oh, brother.

I suppose at this point we might do our visitors a service, and pre-emptively point out that the Pentagon also does not have a battalion of combat Marines to protect against ground troops, a squadron of tanks, its own fighter wing, etc., in addition to its non-existent anti-aircraft guns or missiles.

Just because it's involved with the military does not mean it's built for combat. It's an office building. It has relatively little tactical military value. Aside from security issues, it's just not that special. Passive measures only.

Otherwise, they would never have built it in such a sensitive area. If you're expecting the heavy heat, you build out in the middle of nowhere, like Cheyenne Mountain or Malmstrom Air Force Base. It would seriously suck to repel an attack, only to have the Capitol wiped out by near misses.

And people are laughing because you should be able to answer these questions for yourself. I would fail a fourth-grade research report that made such assertions. Nothing personal, we like to help, but you must also participate in your own education.

Without wanting to disagree with your post too much -- because your point is valid -- I think it's a mistake to say the Pentagon has relatively little tactical value. The NMCC (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/nmcc.htm) is there, the JCS is there, and the SecDef is there. An effective tactical strike on the Pentagon would decapitate the US military (although I'm sure there are contingency plans and redunancies built into the system to make it survivable). It is an office building, but it's a pretty damned important one.

[JamesB]

I'd have to concur that some auto-respond solution seems quite foolish, given the pentagon's location. If you are still wondering why Gravy seems to be curt with you, perhaps its because you don't seem to have delved into 911myths or any of the other debunking sites and are asking leading questions that obviously tip your hand.

Huh? I didn't realize Gravy was being curt with me. And I think I have looked into some of the debunking sites.... Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else?

[R.Mackey]

Without wanting to disagree with your post too much -- because your point is valid -- I think it's a mistake to say the Pentagon has relatively little tactical value. The NMCC (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/nmcc.htm) is there, the JCS is there, and the SecDef is there. An effective tactical strike on the Pentagon would decapitate the US military (although I'm sure there are contingency plans and redunancies built into the system to make it survivable). It is an office building, but it's a pretty damned important one.
We can agree -- I chose my words carefully. "Tactical" was the key word.

Wasting the Pentagon and killing everyone inside would have serious long-term effects on the military's ability to wrangle budgets and policy, for sure, might even have some strategic impact (I'm suddenly reminded of the plotline of The Dirty Dozen). But I would imagine it would have no effect at all on the military's immediate response capability. Many of those in the Pentagon, SecDef included, are civilians.

This is just my guess, and it is admittedly hard to prove, though.

[Gravy]

JamesB...
I'd imagine, since you are looking into whether there's batteries included at the pentagon or not, you'd probably have seen this:
Pentagon arms missile batteries around D.C.
If I recall correctly, that was juat a temporary measure. I don't have a source, just memory.

[Gravy]

Huh? I didn't realize Gravy was being curt with me. And I think I have looked into some of the debunking sites.... Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else?
Is he mistaking you for SBrown? You both have "sb" in your names. But if I want to get curt with you, I'll get CurtC to help. He's a natural.

[JamesB]

It was, the article cited even mentions that it was the first time in 40 years, and this was only after the 9/11 attacks. The Avenger is just 4 stingers mounted on the back of a humvee. The CTs have been alluding to some type of permenent missile battery. Some moonbat in the new LC video even suggests there is some type of secret underground missile battery, however the hell that works.

This is a line of sight system of course, so to be effective you would need one on each side. I think someone would have noticed 4 Avengers parked on the lawn of the Pentagon before 9/11. Aside from the fact that in order to staff it 24/7 would basically tie up an entire ADA battalion.

[Pardalis]

In all honesty, I think you guys have been a little harsh on SBrown.

I know her choice of screenname might not help in taking her (her?) seriously, and even though her question might have been clumsy, I think overall she did raise kind of a good point. Is the Pentagon is a little too close to civilian activities, for it's own good and for the safety of the people? Should they have been more prepared for an attack? How does securing strategic buildings in urban areas work exactly? All of these questions are interesting for people not knowledgeable in that area (such as myself).

But then again, now a days everything is a good target. And since we all wouldn't want every important building in every city to have missile silos around them, there's a thin line here between ultra protection and just being prepared for the worst.

Just a thought

[joseph k.]

Huh? I didn't realize Gravy was being curt with me. And I think I have looked into some of the debunking sites.... Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else?
Is he mistaking you for SBrown?

You are correct, sirs. My apologies, I seem to have had a misplaced brain flatulation.

I was attempting to address SBrown. It must be all these darn initial name combos...

[XXX]

I also enjoyed how you taunted them for getting their collective butts whipped by Obviousman on the Moon Hoax thread. What a bunch of [rule8]s. I especially enjoyed when they said that Eric Huffy would show you and Obviousman. Rather doubtful considering he ran screaming from any debate on the Bad Astronomer bulletin board years ago.

They find faith in the dumbest, most cowardly people in that forum.

Man, I just finished reading that thread. OMG, it's just too much. I especially like, after having been given a nice detailed analysis about the radiation belt that they had been asking for..."I wonder if someone who is sure man went on the moon - can prove it without typing a whole bunch of technical jargon." I'm sorry that your attention span is limited to what will fit onto a bumper sticker. Or how about admin The Quest saying that all your "facts" come from the hoaxers, and therefore he doesn't have to deal with them. :confused: It's no wonder they moved that thread...people might actually see how some of the people they are taking their cues from think, and it's pretty scary.

[SezMe]

...snip... I think overall she did raise kind of a good point. Is the Pentagon is a little too close to civilian activities, for it's own good and for the safety of the people? Should they have been more prepared for an attack? How does securing strategic buildings in urban areas work exactly? All of these questions are interesting for people not knowledgeable in that area (such as myself).
I want to support Pardalis here. My question, given that Reagan airport is so close to the Pentagon, White House, Congress, and so many other sites of essential importance to our country, why is it still open?

My answer: It is the airport used by members of congress, other VERY high ranking government officials, and senior management of our nation's largest (and influential) corporations. These people are willing to sacrifice the security of our essential infrastructure so that they don't have to use Dulles like the rest of us schlubs.

[chipmunk stew]

Of course. They had to have had one. A stupid frigate has multiple ones. The Pentagon is the heart of our national defense. Why would they not have one?The Pentagon did have armed missile batteries around D.C.:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/10/ar911.air.defense/

For the first time since the Cuban missile crisis almost 40 years ago, armed missile launchers will be protecting the nation's capital by day's end Tuesday -- a precaution that comes amid a heightened alert status on the eve of the one-year anniversary of the September 11 attacks.but they were portable surface-to-air missile launchers (mounted on the backs of Hummers) and were deployed in 2002.

edit: sorry for the redundancy, I hadn't yet gotten to this post from joseph k: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1678010#post1678010

[WildCat]

Man, I just finished reading that thread. OMG, it's just too much. I especially like, after having been given a nice detailed analysis about the radiation belt that they had been asking for..."I wonder if someone who is sure man went on the moon - can prove it without typing a whole bunch of technical jargon." I'm sorry that your attention span is limited to what will fit onto a bumper sticker. Or how about admin The Quest saying that all your "facts" come from the hoaxers, and therefore he doesn't have to deal with them. :confused: It's no wonder they moved that thread...people might actually see how some of the people they are taking their cues from think, and it's pretty scary.
Hehe, I didn't see that until now. These people are so willfully ignorant it's astonishing. On this page (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560) broodlinger says:
Moon photos and videos seem to be pretty limited and rare.
Must not have ever seen this site (http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html), chock full of hundreds of high-res images from every Apollo mission. Funny how the hoax sites only show low-res pics, much like CT'ers get all their "evidence" from highly compressed video and pics.

[Belz...]

Of course. They had to have had one.

Convincing.

A stupid frigate has multiple ones. The Pentagon is the heart of our national defense. Why would they not have one?

Because the Pentagon doesn't tend to go on the front lines.

[Hutch]

Just a couple of things to add, I agree that SBrown did ask a few pertinent questions and probalby shouldn't have been dusted quite that quickly.

On DC National Airport--The normal approach route (the only one I have ever seen used in my many years and trips to Washington) is from the South over the Potomac, never from the North over the city. Takeoffs are to the North, so you are departing towards the city (and are past the Pentagon before the gear has retracted) and flights need to pull a hard left during departure so as not to pass over the monuments/Capitol region. These restrictions were in effect long before 9-11.

And remember, National was the only airport for the DC region until the 1960's when Dulles was built (30+ miles awayt), and even then Dulles did not become a going concern until the 80's when the city and transit began building out that way. I don't see DC National being closed anytime soon, it is simply to convienent for the hundreds of thousands of people who must travel to and from the capitol of the most powerful nation on earth.

On the Pentagon--Concur, it is an office building, but given it's bulk and the wide spacing of offices, it would take more than just a plane crash to disable it and it's functioning. And the military always has a chain of command that specifies who is in charge if officers above become incapacitated (or dead) so while their would be confusion, it would not last long.

As to missiles, this is one that I believe the burden of proof would be on the CT'ers. To the best of my knowledge no anti-aircraft batteries were stationed at the Pentagon prior to 9-11 because (1) as mentioned above, the danger was considered minor and (2) an out-of-control plane from DC National (probably a scenario that was discussed, not a deliberate suicide run as occured) would happen to fast for any type of anti-aircraft reaction.

Not to mention that giving the order to shoot down a passenger plane would need coordination and decision-making---damn few Generals would order such a shootdown without higher authority, even if they had the capability, which I doubt was available.

Anti-Missile Defense--SBrown, the articles you referenced dealt with the testing of the Ballistic Missile defense, which is designed to intercept incoming Ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads from another country. It was not designed to protect buildings or other sites from attacking aircraft--the US Military has lots of specialized forces to do that.

But none at the Pentagon on 9-11, it would appear...

Press on.

[ZouPrime]

I wanted to answer the whole "missile defense system" claim, but I see that other posters have done a pretty good job at it while I was sleeping. For the record, yes, the "pentagon missile system" quote presented refers to the "star wars" anti-ICBM system Bush was pushing so much at the begining of his first mandate - not some kind of short range missile batterie. The quote made it pretty clear in fact. As for the idea of putting permanently an automated system out there... can you imagine the trouble? Airplane attacks are very rare compared to confused pilots; the amount of false-positives is staggering. Worst Idea Ever.

And just to conclude:

Of course. They had to have had one. A stupid frigate has multiple ones. The Pentagon is the heart of our national defense. Why would they not have one?

This is called "trusting your instincts even if they are based on ignorance". And I would say that 99% of all CT claims have exactly the same base. "It seems", "I feel it should be that way", "common sense tell us" are good arguments only if you can back them up with actual experience. Not that I'm accusing SBrown of being a CT believer...

[60hzxtl]

Funny, I almost made the exact same post, R.Mackey. Well, the 'office building' part, anyway. You fleshed it out rather well.


I started that too, but it was above my pay grade to say "office building" and I knew where the objections would be, and didn't have the answers when they 'just asked questions' Glad I remembered that and left it to some one else to say.

and then from the losers:

<<Yeah I forget sometimes that this forum is full of 16 and under....as our poll shows lol...>>

'Yup I' don't know what a girl looks like, but lemme tell ya' about controlled demolition, 'cause I saw it in a movie and I saw that movie 3 times.'

[Hutch]

FWIW, our Ninja Wave picture has been removed.

No sense of humor, I guess...

[kookbreaker]

FWIW, our Ninja Wave picture has been removed.

No sense of humor, I guess...

There's a reason why we call them 'Loosers'. They remind us of it practically every day.

I'm surpirsed they haven't gone on another banning spree, especially given how humiliated they were in that Moon hoax thread.

[chipmunk stew]

FWIW, our Ninja Wave picture has been removed.

No sense of humor, I guess...It's still there.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&st=60&#entry4959575

It just got buried under an administrator's sharing of an individual's private information
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&view=findpost&p=4967164

edit: It's amusing that JFK thinks nothingsoc works for the government and crashed his hard drive.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It's still there.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&st=60&#entry4959575

It just got buried under an administrator's sharing of an individual's private information
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&view=findpost&p=4967164

Wuh? So, since notingsoc's company (I assume he is posting from there and that is where the dns/whois routed back to) is located in DC he must be a shill?

So, if she ways the same as a duck, she's made out of wood.
And therefore?
A witch!

[aggle-rithm]

Because she was imaginary?

(Personally, when I was single I generally tended to remember the names of all my dates -- there really weren't all that many, so it wasn't hard to keep track.)

I remember the name of every woman I've dated. It'd be awkward if I didn't, since I'm married to her now...

[chipmunk stew]

I remember the name of every woman I've dated. It'd be awkward if I didn't, since I'm married to her now...Awww... That's so sweet! Write that down so you'll remember to say it at a big family gathering celebrating your fiftieth anniversary. You'll make the whole room cry.

[chipmunk stew]

Wuh? So, since notingsoc's company (I assume he is posting from there and that is where the dns/whois routed back to) is located in DC he must be a shill?

So, if she ways the same as a duck, she's made out of wood.
And therefore?
A witch!Well, he did turn me into a newt.

[chipmunk stew]

Hehe, I didn't see that until now. These people are so willfully ignorant it's astonishing. On this page (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560) broodlinger says:

Must not have ever seen this site (http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html), chock full of hundreds of high-res images from every Apollo mission. Funny how the hoax sites only show low-res pics, much like CT'ers get all their "evidence" from highly compressed video and pics.Someone should break it to tom m. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560&view=findpost&p=4779622) that 5902 replies ain't nuthin'
PRAVDA (www.pravda.ru (http://www.pravda.ru/) and english.pravda.ru (http://english.pravda.ru/)) - Have to say its an interesting site.. Get this, it has the very loooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnngest thread of replies on any forum item I have ever seen in my life. Here is the thread:

On May 4th, 2003 a guy by the name of "donquijote" posted "What would it take for Russia to be #1?" listed as follows:
Forums > World Coverage > Politics > What would it take for Russia to be #1?

This single thread has gotten 5902 replies (not views – replies).
Talk about a heated discussion. Holy Cow!We have that beat on this topic alone.

[aggle-rithm]

Without wanting to disagree with your post too much -- because your point is valid -- I think it's a mistake to say the Pentagon has relatively little tactical value. The NMCC (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/nmcc.htm) is there, the JCS is there, and the SecDef is there. An effective tactical strike on the Pentagon would decapitate the US military (although I'm sure there are contingency plans and redunancies built into the system to make it survivable). It is an office building, but it's a pretty damned important one.

Of course, the Pentagon wasn't attacked on 9/11 because of it's strategic value, but because it was a symbol of US military might.

[azazal]

It's still there.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&st=60&#entry4959575

It just got buried under an administrator's sharing of an individual's private information
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4970&view=findpost&p=4967164

edit: It's amusing that JFK thinks nothingsoc works for the government and crashed his hard drive.


:D Good to see it go to good use

[dubfan]

Of course, the Pentagon wasn't attacked on 9/11 because of it's strategic value, but because it was a symbol of US military might.

Sure. Don't disagree with that at all. I think the targets on 9/11 were chosen for symbolic value (but not only for symbolic value -- clearly they intended to do inflict non-symbolic damage).

The original point was that the Pentagon has limited tactical military value, in the sense that it doesn't contribue anything immediate and direct in terms of a combat response. I.e., it's not a weapons platform, like a ship or a platoon of soldiers, etc. -- something that has a direct effect on the battlefield.

My point is that there are components of the Pentagon that have tactical, as well as strategic value. One of them is the National Military Command Center (NMCC) (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/nmcc.htm). Knock that out and I suspect it would be a very bad day indeed for the US military. I'm sure the military can survive without it, but I think the C3 impact from losing that would have a measurable and detrimental tactical effect.

None of this, of course, takes anything away from the numerous reasons given for there not being an automated missile defense system, of course.

[delphi_ote]

edit: It's amusing that JFK thinks nothingsoc works for the government and crashed his hard drive.
It's a scientifically proven fact that every single person whose ISP is located in Washington D.C. is payed with your tax dollars. See?
What pisses me off is that my tax dollars are paying for this.
:rolleyes:
It's amazing to me how little these guys understand how the world works.

[kookbreaker]

It's a scientifically proven fact that every single person whose ISP is located in Washington D.C. is payed with your tax dollars. See?

:rolleyes:
It's amazing to me how little these guys understand how the world works.

No kidding. If I were running an opressive, totalitarian government secret agency, the first thing I'd do to stop people from exposing a dark secrete is crash the hard drive of their snottiest, whiniest, most pathetic mouthbreathing member of the would be 'exposers'. Beats death squads for sure! :rolleyes:

[delphi_ote]

No kidding. If I were running an opressive, totalitarian government secret agency, the first thing I'd do to stop people from exposing a dark secrete is crash the hard drive of their snottiest, whiniest, most pathetic mouthbreathing member of the would be 'exposers'. Beats death squads for sure! :rolleyes:
I've heard that at a certain intelligence agency, none of the computers used for external connections (i.e. web surfing) identify themselves as being from that intelligence agency.

ETA By the way, they do this to prevent paranoia.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Of course, the Pentagon wasn't attacked on 9/11 because of it's strategic value, but because it was a symbol of US military might.

That, and it's easy to pick out from the air.

[chipmunk stew]

I've heard that at a certain intelligence agency, none of the computers used for external connections (i.e. web surfing) identify themselves as being from that intelligence agency.:confused: Why would a spy organization want to hide their identity???

[MarkyX]

Where's my hug?

[azazal]

No kidding. If I were running an opressive, totalitarian government secret agency, the first thing I'd do to stop people from exposing a dark secrete is crash the hard drive of their snottiest, whiniest, most pathetic mouthbreathing member of the would be 'exposers'. Beats death squads for sure! :rolleyes:


Ahh, but what are those death sqauds compaired to the JREF Ninja Wave Team!!


(darn, no ninja smiley that I can see, must be using ninja stealth to hide)

[delphi_ote]

Where's my hug?
Hey, Mark! Glad to see you!

BTW this is the hug to which he refers:
Awesome! MarkyX, come register here so we can give you a big hug.

[MarkyX]

Hey, Mark! Glad to see you!

Likewise. Turning into a celebrity...the emails, my god.

[kookbreaker]

Ahh, but what are those death sqauds compaired to the JREF Ninja Wave Team!!


(darn, no ninja smiley that I can see, must be using ninja stealth to hide)

This guy wil have to do:

:darkside:

[delphi_ote]

Likewise. Turning into a celebrity...the emails, my god.
Getting anything funny from the Loosers yet?

[60hzxtl]

:confused: Why would a spy organization want to hide their identity???


What? Are you a congressman or something?

It was great when congress acted shocked earlier this year to find out that the spy agencies were actualy, spying.

Now be sure to pick up your paycheck from the spy agency, 'cause it's Friday.

[chipmunk stew]

Where's my hug?Woo-hoo!
A hug: *big hug*
And a plug: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57825

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Where's my hug?
:welcome4

[Belz...]

<<Yeah I forget sometimes that this forum is full of 16 and under....as our poll shows lol...>>

I wonder if they mean physically or otherwise...

[60hzxtl]

Hey Mark - Bravo! You did what I thought would be the quickest turn around on the losers - now catch up on your sleep.

You and Gravy have begun the derailing of "like, hey man Dylan's" 'career'

That and the loser's declaring that they didn't know you had to clear footage before you helped yourself, as if you get to decide what to do with the other guys property.

Bravo Zulu and stand by for Loose Change 3, which at this point might just be a radio show.

[MarkyX]

Bravo Zulu and stand by for Loose Change 3, which at this point might just be a radio show.

Yeah. I've already seen the first half an hour of LC3. Crazy hyped up guy with coffee in the beginning, a crappy lying "candidate" talking about **** without real evidence, and a geology professor telling me about pentagon's defenses.

I love that bar scene though. Paid actors were involved, or he is trying to get laid. Looking at Dylan in CBS or hearing his voice on the radio, the personality displayed in the bar scene was very Out of Character for Dylan. I would've believed it more if he said "I mean" twenty times within a span of 10 seconds.

[MarkyX]

Getting anything funny from the Loosers yet?

Sort of. Some of them were bitching about how I kept saying the music was crappy during the video. Others stated that it didn't matter that the engine was wrong, because they were 'both similar'. One person even stated that demolitions go from the top, not from the bottom.

I don't expect the nuts to convert. I expect the mainstream to start asking questions about how viable their 'loose change' source is.

I got a lot of annoyed people on the counter-CT side that I didn't go further; interview experts and so forth. That wasn't the point of this video.

[chipmunk stew]

Woo-hoo!
A hug: *big hug*
And a plug: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57825:hug1:

I knew there was a hug smiley around somewhere.

For those who don't know who MarkyX is yet, check my plug above, or my sig.

[dubfan]

Um, unless I'm seriously mistaken, the south tower is not at all visible in this frame, is it? I think they're looking at the NORTH tower and not the south tower, partially obscured by the north, as the OP claims.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5384&view=findpost&p=4974597

[60hzxtl]

I expect the mainstream to start asking questions about how viable their 'loose change' source is.




Which is all that really counts. Every newsroom I've ever been in has cranks that will not get off a subject who write letters, make tapes, etc.

The news rooms keep these cranks at bay, will trot one out on a slow news day, but they know that they are crack pots.

Most of the media, and most of the showcasing of LC has been, not by reporters, but what we call TRANSCRIBERS, they do no research, check no facts, but take dictation and parrot what the subject says. This passes for news, and reporting.

And worse somehow becomes an endorsement of the topic.

[ZouPrime]

Um, unless I'm seriously mistaken, the south tower is not at all visible in this frame, is it? I think they're looking at the NORTH tower and not the south tower, partially obscured by the north, as the OP claims.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5384&view=findpost&p=4974597
Yea, I just saw that too. I don't understand why they are claiming the "squibs" are comming from the (partially obcured) second tower; the video clearly shows the explosion of the plane crashing to the left with "UA-175 COLPISCE LA 2e TORRE" in big letters (which is italian for "UA-175 hits the second tower").

Can't these people read? It's written right there on the video! Pathetic.

[MarkyX]

Which is all that really counts. Every newsroom I've ever been in has cranks that will not get off a subject who write letters, make tapes, etc.

The news rooms keep these cranks at bay, will trot one out on a slow news day, but they know that they are crack pots.

Most of the media, and most of the showcasing of LC has been, not by reporters, but what we call TRANSCRIBERS, they do no research, check no facts, but take dictation and parrot what the subject says. This passes for news, and reporting.

And worse somehow becomes an endorsement of the topic.

I didn't exactly mean the media, but the people in general. The 'moderates' of those who believe it.

It would be pretty damn sexy if some big names mention this though. The url isn't THAT hard to memorize ;)

[delphi_ote]

Sort of. Some of them were bitching about how I kept saying the music was crappy during the video. Others stated that it didn't matter that the engine was wrong, because they were 'both similar'. One person even stated that demolitions go from the top, not from the bottom.

I don't expect the nuts to convert. I expect the mainstream to start asking questions about how viable their 'loose change' source is.
Of course they won't convert. It's just good to take what entertainment value away that you can. Laughing keeps us sane.
I got a lot of annoyed people on the counter-CT side that I didn't go further; interview experts and so forth. That wasn't the point of this video.
You don't put a video liket his together all by yourself in a week and interview experts!

[60hzxtl]

Yea, I just saw that too. I don't understand why they are claiming the "squibs" are comming from the (partially obcured) second tower; the video clearly shows the explosion of the plane crashing to the left with "UA-175 COLPISCE LA 2e TORRE" in big letters (which is italian for "UA-175 hits the second tower").

Can't these people read? It's written right there on the video! Pathetic.


I think they have something there - the worlds first BLACK smoking squibs!

The response over there is a hoot - Logic - looks like to me - feelings!

[60hzxtl]

I didn't exactly mean the media, but the people in general. The 'moderates' of those who believe it.

It would be pretty damn sexy if some big names mention this though. The url isn't THAT hard to memorize ;)


I've been salting it around. . .

[Kiwiwriter]

This "world domination plan" is really long in the making isn't it? These Globalists are a patient bunch.


Yeah, you'd think that with humanity's long history of violence and chaos, these world dominatrixes would have finished the job. They had plenty of chances to do it...the Crusades, the Dark Ages, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the fall of the Bourbons, Napoleon, the Congress of Vienna, the revolutions of 1848, Bismarck, the American Civil War, the Franco-Prussian War, the First World War, the Great Depression, the Second World War, the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Watergate, the Middle East Wars, the rock'n'roller cola wars, and Y2K.

And it hasn't happened. What's the matter with these guys? If 19 guys with boxcutters can knock down the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, why can't a bunch of bankers with more money than Davy Crockett rig the United Nations?

[Kiwiwriter]

But that doesn't even mak... I me...t... dkkk...NO CARRIER

I can't unravel their logic, either. :boggled:

[MarkyX]

I think they have something there - the worlds first BLACK smoking squibs!

The response over there is a hoot - Logic - looks like to me - feelings!

Yep, funny thing about those squibs. If they were truly bombs in the WTC, the squibs wouldn't be 'slow' and 'flowing' with the building speed. They are a seperate entity, therefore don't react to the speed of other objects (in this case, the building itself). Even the videos they use to show the demolitions show REAL squibs being fast and rapid, not caring about the building's state.

[Kiwiwriter]

If I ever find myself in New Jersey or you ever find yourself in Orlando, I would love to chat with you over a beer.

I don't drink, but I'll be happy to sip seltzer with you next time my family goes down to Disney World. And if you come up to Newark, I'll give you the 50 cent tour of what used to be the World Trade Center and show you the exhibits in the Police and Fire Department Museums on the subject.

If you want to chat further, drop me an off-line post. Cheers. :)

[Kiwiwriter]

That would have to be a very long knife. (I couldn't help myself :D )

Yes, it would stretch from Newark to Scranton. :D

[60hzxtl]

I just watched Mark's Part 7, and I think the CT'ers missed what really brought the WTC down: at 8:34 the fireman from the Naudet Bros film (remember them? ) mentions "a huge cloud of sh*t"

How did we not see this?

It was the huge cloud of s*it that did the damage.

[Kiwiwriter]

I agree with you for the most part, and if SBrown meant no harm, all well and good.

Perhaps I'm a bit touchy, but so many CT questions sound reasonable at first but tend to the over simplistic. I'll guess that they are meant less to gain information or insight and more to produce a measure of doubt on the part of the audience. Let's look at the one we're discussing:

"Doesn't the Pentagon have a missile defense system?"

Hmm, seems like they should. It's the Pentagon, the nation's center for defense. Defense is what goes on there. Why, they must have the best defense that budgetary dollars can buy! The best in the world!

But hey, they were attacked. Successfully, too. Something's not right here. Somthing's not right here at all...

You see? The question is suggestive.

Now, I can't prove that SBrown is up to shenanigans with his/her "question" without more info or a display of a continued pattern of behavior (see: geggy). For your reminder of this basic requirement of discourse, thanks.

I have similar problems with Holocaust deniers...and oddly, to a lesser extent with the media and the general public in my job. The public likes to ask the "trap question," which is: "What is the phone number for thus-and-such?"

I answer, and they snarl, "Well, I called that number five times and they're always busy!"

And I have to answer, "Well, if you had started off by saying 'I called that number and it's always busy,' I would have given you a different number. Instead you asked the 'trap question.'"

The media does this, too...expecting me to comment on some statement I haven't heard yet.

Holocaust deniers do it very well...the little question, "Does the Wannsee Protocol really call for the extermination of the Jews?" And after some chitchat you find out his real intention, he'll say, "Look at the protocol more closely," or "Look at this website," which is a denier site.

It's tough...when is a guy just learning and when is a guy trolling? I'm not a mind-reader, but neither are the guys who call themselves mind-readers.

[Belz...]

Looking at Dylan in CBS or hearing his voice on the radio, the personality displayed in the bar scene was very Out of Character for Dylan. I would've believed it more if he said "I mean" twenty times within a span of 10 seconds.

:D

[ZouPrime]

In a previous post here I was saying how so many of the CTers beliefs are built around a naive trust into what we call "common sense". This post on the LC forum shows it very well:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207


1) We all have an "innate" sense of how things work in nature. It is this innate sense that leads us to understand laws of physics, such as centrifugal motion, torque, and the like, without having to earn a PhD in the subject. Can any rational, thinking, and most importantly honest person really say that the way the towers fell was not "unusual", and very similar to the way buildings would fall in a demoltion?


It's funny, because he uses as an exemple "centrifugal motion", something a lot of peoples (intuitively) would describe as a "force" even if its not. It's a great exemple of something that is believed "intuitively" but is still very wrong.

I also like the use of the word "unusual". It is "not usual", meaning it is not similar to other events of the same nature. But most of us have little to no experience in observing planes crash on building the size of the WTCs, and seeing these building collapse. We are certainly not "used" to see things like that. So in this context, "unusual" is a completely vaccuous term, since there's no frame of reference.

[Belz...]

Yea, I just saw that too. I don't understand why they are claiming the "squibs" are comming from the (partially obcured) second tower; the video clearly shows the explosion of the plane crashing to the left with "UA-175 COLPISCE LA 2e TORRE" in big letters (which is italian for "UA-175 hits the second tower").

Can't these people read? It's written right there on the video! Pathetic.

What you see is a high up shot of the first tower already hit and smoking, the first tower is partially obscuring the 2nd tower (to the left) which is yet to be hit by a plane, but it is smoking dense black smoke from two parallel squibs??!! Two further parallel and suspicious squibs are then emitted slightly lower down before the plane hits. We then see the fireball as the plane hits and further squibs being emitted.

Err... isn't the south tower to the left of the screen ?? The smoking part is STILL the north tower!!

[Belz...]

It's funny, because he uses as an exemple "centrifugal motion", something a lot of peoples (intuitively) would describe as a "force" even if its not. It's a great exemple of something that is believed "intuitively" but is still very wrong.

Indeed. He also forgets to mention quantum physics and relativity.

Intuition is a very poor tool for discerning truth.

[60hzxtl]

Indeed. He also forgets to mention quantum physics and relativity.

Intuition is a very poor tool for discerning truth.


I knew that!

[joseph k.]

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Jul 2 2006, 05:43 AM.

I guess the cat's out of the bag. I am notingsoc!

To clarify, I am nowhere near D.C., I am not a gov't shill or really much of a gov't apologist[except by accident in this case].

I guess these kids can add proxy servers, cool little programs like tor and privoxy to their list of ignorant misconception.

p.s. I am at least consoled by the badge I have headed my way!

[chipmunk stew]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Feb 22 2009, 08:41 PM.:eek:

[RyanRoberts]

Got uncritical coverage in The Madison Capital Times (http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2006/05/13/0605120442.php) as a guest editorial.

[dubfan]

Now getting coverage The Madison Capital Times (http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2006/05/13/0605120442.php) as a guest editorial. Disgusting.

Yeah, more of this Morgan Reynolds character. I think I'm going to be physically ill.

He's an economist, btw, but that doesn't stop Roxdog from citing his shoddy "rebuttal" of Frank Greening's work (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5393).

Somebody with an unsuspended account, please get in there. This is driving me crazy.

[Hutch]

Guess I pushed it to far. Can't log in, can even view the bloody Loose Change board. Only thing I get is:

Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board

Bet it was TheQuest that got me. Betcha further he'll ban all the folks arguing with him on the moon hoax.

Well, it was quite an experience while it lasted...

[joseph k.]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

:eek:


Sheesh. You're dangerous! It seems they may be cleaning house of any suspected JREF ninjas, as well as anyone who's ip is bounced off of Washington.
Maybe after I recover from the loss, I will create notingsoc part deux. [I may have to practice more clandestinity this mission]

[aggle-rithm]

That, and it's easy to pick out from the air.

And the hijackers STILL had to come around for a second pass.

I'm guessing the DC and Pennsylvania hijackers weren't their "A" team.

[kookbreaker]

Guess I pushed it to far. Can't log in, can even view the bloody Loose Change board. Only thing I get is:



Bet it was TheQuest that got me. Betcha further he'll ban all the folks arguing with him on the moon hoax.

Well, it was quite an experience while it lasted...

I keep wondering how many times the Loose Change children can keep wetting their pants and still function in society.

Oh wait, they don't.

[dubfan]

Guess I pushed it to far. Can't log in, can even view the bloody Loose Change board.

Clear the invisionfree cookies in your browser and you should be good to go -- at least to be able to view the board.

Although, being able to read and not reply to the rank stupidity over there is its own form of torture.

[Abbyas]

Yeah, the skeptics forum over there has gotten very boring now that the moderators have kicked out all dissenters.

It's just a bunch of "Skeptics answer this!" with no skeptics left to answer.

[chipmunk stew]

"plaguepuppy" (aka Jeff King) now posting at the LC forums:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4965&view=findpost&p=4977084

Gravy, if we can set up an online (forum-style) debate between you and Jeff, are you game?

[aggle-rithm]

No kidding. If I were running an opressive, totalitarian government secret agency, the first thing I'd do to stop people from exposing a dark secrete is crash the hard drive of their snottiest, whiniest, most pathetic mouthbreathing member of the would be 'exposers'. Beats death squads for sure! :rolleyes:

Especially America's death squads, which, in fact, do exist, but are required by government quotas to hire only severly handicapped minorities from South Dakota. They aren't very effective, to be honest.

[Hellbound]

Especially America's death squads, which, in fact, do exist, but are required by government quotas to hire only severly handicapped minorities from South Dakota. They aren't very effective, to be honest.

True.

More of a "Minor Inconvenience" Squad than a "Death" Squad. I mean, those electric wheelchairs only go so fast, you know?

[chipmunk stew]

True.

More of a "Minor Inconvenience" Squad than a "Death" Squad. I mean, those electric wheelchairs only go so fast, you know?They can cause a mean rash if you're not careful, though.

[Pardalis]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Feb 22 2009, 08:41 PM.

:eek:

At least Bush won't be around by then and the whole LC insanity will have died out.

[delphi_ote]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

:eek:
If you remembered that and actually made a post on 02/22/09, you would be my hero.

[kookbreaker]

Yeah, the skeptics forum over there has gotten very boring now that the moderators have kicked out all dissenters.

It's just a bunch of "Skeptics answer this!" with no skeptics left to answer.

So many idiots, so little access.

Ah well, it'll be fun when Dylan starts making his own Kool-Aid.

[brodski]

True.

More of a "Minor Inconvenience" Squad than a "Death" Squad. I mean, those electric wheelchairs only go so fast, you know?
yeah, but they're deadly if they get to you whilst you're in a swimming pool. But only once.

[delphi_ote]

At least Bush won't be around by then and the whole LC insanity will have died out.
One word: Jeb.

[bob_kark]

Yeah, the skeptics forum over there has gotten very boring now that the moderators have kicked out all dissenters.

It's just a bunch of "Skeptics answer this!" with no skeptics left to answer.

I've answered a few. I'm trying to be a polite guest while over there, I haven't been banned yet, we'll see. I mainly just stick to the skeptic board, its not like it would make much of a difference to post on the other boards. Its kind of nice actually, I usually don't get much of a chance to refute some of the statements on here as there is such an armada following this thread. Anyway, I only get to post there when I'm home, so I'm not able to do as much as I'd like.

[Kiwiwriter]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

:eek:


Wow. They must really hate your guts.

And think they'll still be up and running years from now.

And that the apocalypse won't happen until after that.

I guess they think you took steroids while playing in the major leagues or something.

[kookbreaker]

From Loose Change:


payt and denheer (same person or friends) and hutch have been banned permanently.

If anyone sees these guys back, let me know immediately.


What TheQuest really meant to say was:


payt and denheer (same person or friends) and hutch have been banned permanently since they keep repeatedly kicking my ass over this moon hoax issue I so desperately, desperately want to beleive in. Since I am such a damned idiot that I cannot prove my flailing ignorance is anything close to the truth I will (ab)use my moderating powers to ban those who disagree with me.


Hope TheQuest enjoys the circle-jerk.

[chipmunk stew]

Wow. They must really hate your guts.

And think they'll still be up and running years from now.

And that the apocalypse won't happen until after that.

I guess they think you took steroids while playing in the major leagues or something.I think they're counting on the apocalypse happening before that. (Sarah Connor keeps mentioning 2008 in a creepy way--like s/he expects something severe to happen that year.) It's effectively a ban, but perhaps a suspension is easier to rationalize.

[60hzxtl]

Wow. They must really hate your guts.

And think they'll still be up and running years from now.




Of course they'll still be around - if you chase smoke, and shadows and ghosts, you never catch them, so you keep chasing.

Catch a real bad guy and you have to have a trial.

My goal is to keep the loser's bilge water from ever being used at a defense trial of any bad guy.

[Manny]

Of course they'll still be around - if you chase smoke, and shadows and ghosts, you never catch them, so you keep chasing.True. But ironically, the more attention they get the less likely it is that that particular spot will be around.

They already got enough publicity to come to the attention of the lawyers for the Naudet Brothers, and that's just by being in the Google top 10 along with clips from camgirls and rejects from America's Funniest Home Videos. Eventually, if they get their wish, they'll come to the attention of the Somerset County Coroner, whose beliefs they lied about and the lawyers of that fellow at the engine plant, whose words they misrepresented, and maybe to the lawyers for Larry Silverstein, whom they all but accuse of mass murder and treason, and the lawyers for...

[Ramooone]

Guess I pushed it to far. Can't log in, can even view the bloody Loose Change board. Only thing I get is:



Bet it was TheQuest that got me. Betcha further he'll ban all the folks arguing with him on the moon hoax.

Well, it was quite an experience while it lasted...


we've all been banned from there, if you dont feel like clearing your cookies there is a back way in. on the bottom of the page that notifies you of your suspension theres a link that says "archive" it lets you back into the forum hahahaha.

[Ramooone]

ive been away for a day or so, but this iss the best ninja website on earth and possibly the whole milky way.

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

[Johnny Pixels]

I'm still allowed in, but probably because I've only made two posts since I signed up about a month ago.

I'm not sure if I should go serious, or as an agent of the humour revolution.

[Hutch]

From Loose Change:
payt and denheer (same person or friends) and hutch have been banned permanently.

If anyone sees these guys back, let me know immediately.

Not surprised. He apparently sent me a PM over there to tell me I was banned, unfortunately he was in such a hurry to ban me that I never got to read it! (somehow I'll survive the disappointment).

I actually feel sorry for payt, he was in favor of 9-11 being a conspiracy, but he could differeniate between what he feels is a conspiracy (9-11) and what he knows by evidence as a fact (Apollo). Unfortunately for him, TheQuest is quite incapable of making such a distinction and lumped him in with the rest of us ninjas...don't even remember who denheer was??

I rather hope payt is re-instated by a moderator that is not quite two loaves short of a picnic. Or maybe he can come over here; we may yet turn him to the Dark Side...

[rwguinn]

So you're jumping to the conclusion that restricted airspaces automatically have missile defense systems?
ETA: Like sports stadiums?

And airports... and cities...and Military bases...and test ranges like White Sands...and Nuke power plants...
Restricted Airspace means you have to have permission to be there. If not, you get escorted out and forced to land by F-16's or whatever is available. Then you talk to ... THE MAN, who asks some really hard questions

[Belz...]

I just checked the status of my original "chipmunk stew" LC membership by trying to log in. Originally, I'd been suspended until the end of May. Now?

:eek:

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Feb 22 2009, 08:41 PM.

I'll second that.

:jaw-dropp

[delphi_ote]

I actually feel sorry for payt, he was in favor of 9-11 being a conspiracy, but he could differeniate between what he feels is a conspiracy (9-11) and what he knows by evidence as a fact (Apollo). Unfortunately for him, TheQuest is quite incapable of making such a distinction and lumped him in with the rest of us ninjas...don't even remember who denheer was??
They have one and only one forum rule:

YOU WILL BELIEVE EVERYTHING

[Stellafane]

They have one and only one forum rule:

YOU WILL BELIEVE EVERYTHING

You know, I think given the (admittedly awful) choice, I'd prefer to live in a world where everything the 9/11 CT'ers are saying is actually true, than live under the rule of the CT'ers themselves. Even if the Bush administration is capable of doing the things the CT'ers claim, you gotta admit that for the most part, we're free to express ourselves and conduct our lives as we see fit (as exemplified by this forum). Under the regime of TheQuest and his ilk, however, we'd all be in concentration camps by now, or worse.

Someone once accused TheQuest of becoming what he claims to be fighting against. I personally think he's evolved into something far worse. God help us if his way of thinking ever gains power.

[ob986s]

Hey hutch

looks like you have been un-banned


payt,

You, hutch and denheer are unbanned.

If you want to continue the thread, go ahead. But remeber to agree to disagree if someone believes otherwise. No sarcasm, no lecturing and no flaming.

Just let it go.



please return your badge

and then go tell Payt to join jref so we can recruit him as a Globalist shill

Jon

[Hellbound]

I'd just like to know why The Quest's restrictions aren't applied to the CTers as well.

I mean, you'd think accusations of "shill", and charges of assiting the murderers and such would qualify under "sarcasm, lecturing, or flaming".

Wouldn't be a double-standard, would it?

[Ersby]

Hey hutch

looks like you have been un-banned
If you want to continue the thread, go ahead. But remeber to agree to disagree if someone believes otherwise. No sarcasm, no lecturing and no flaming.

Just let it go.
In other words, "Feel free to contribute, but you have to pretend we're right."

Nice.

[CFLarsen]

If you want to continue the thread, go ahead. But remeber to agree to disagree if someone believes otherwise. No sarcasm, no lecturing and no flaming.

Yet, they can use sarcasm, lecture and flame us.

What is it with woos that make them feel so superior?

[Pardalis]

What is it with woos that make them feel so superior?

They KNOW

[NobbyNobbs]

I must admit, I'm more than a little disappointed. I posted the following over on the LC moan hoax page, and no one responded.

I'm a little confused. The claim is that we can send a module into orbit, send an unmanned module into lunar orbit, that the Russians could send an unmanned module down to the surface....but we couldn't land people there?

Secondly, the fact that Armstrong doesn't make public appearances every day of his life doesn't mean he didn't make the trip. J.D. Salinger was a hermit for years, but that doesn't mean he didn't write Catcher In The Rye. Besides, didn't Armstrong recently participate in a detailed biography?

Finally, if NASA *was* going to perform a hoax on such a mammoth scale, don't you think they wouldn't have overlooked all the little details that you claim prove it was a hoax? In other words, if they're smart enough to carry this off, they're smart enough to carry it off right. I doubt an organization with the resources they have would make mistakes that could be caught by a few armchair detectives and a home computer.


Which is worse? Getting banned or simply getting ignored?

[Mr. Skinny]

Could someone re-post a link to the moon hoax thread at Loose Change? I didn't see it in the Skeptics Forum, and couldn't be a**ed to look through all of the discussion over there.

Thanks in advance.

[XXX]

It's in the "under the bridge" section Mr. Skinny.

[Mr. Skinny]

It's in the "under the bridge" section Mr. Skinny.
Thanks, XXX.

And you may call me "Lord High Emperor SkinnyGod" or "government shill" or just "Skinny" in future. That Mister stuff is so formal.:)

[joseph k.]

I must admit, I'm more than a little disappointed. I posted the following over on the LC moan hoax page, and no one responded.




Which is worse? Getting banned or simply getting ignored?
I think I prefer being ignored, having experienced both now. When you are seemingly ignored, there is always the hope that a few are reading your message and that they will then seek the knowledge. When you are banned you have to suffer the childish barbs sent at you with no opportunity to reply. I know I wouldn't mind correcting JFK and DJ Legassy's erroneous and paranoid judgements of me. I do find some ironic humor in the idea that DJ Legassy is sick of my attitude and called me a smartass. Funny that no one has accused him or, say, Jenabell[it's a guy, really!], or any of the other cocky little pseudo sages over there of the exact same, and if I may say, amplified behavior.

eta-typo

[Hutch]

Hey hutch

looks like you have been un-banned

Yeah, we'll see for how long.

please return your badge

Heck, didn't even have the chance to sew it on my dress blues!

and then go tell Payt to join jref so we can recruit him as a Globalist shill

Actually, checking his posts, he is firmly in the 9-11 Conspiracy Camp. But he dared to show initiave, intelligence, and most of all, that the US Government was competent at doing something instead than covering it up--and for that he had to pay.

Good grief, they have a thread on Icke and the Lizards and all they can say (to sum up) is: "Well, he has LOTS of GOOD ideas, just this one silly one." :boggled: :eek:

Some of these folks are getting very close to cult-like; I wonder if they even scare Mr. Avery a little bit...

[ob986s]

Actually, checking his posts, he is firmly in the 9-11 Conspiracy Camp. But he dared to show initiave, intelligence, and most of all, that the US Government was competent at doing something instead than covering it up--and for that he had to pay.

he is firmly in that camp, but understands logic, reason and facts. it won't be long untill he see's the light, especially if he hangs out on the LC boards for a little while.


Good grief, they have a thread on Icke and the Lizards and all they can say (to sum up) is: "Well, he has LOTS of GOOD ideas, just this one silly one." :boggled: :eek:

Some of these folks are getting very close to cult-like; I wonder if they even scare Mr. Avery a little bit...

I doubt it, if you listened to the call with he and Eric the moan hoaxer you can tell he is one of them. Tinfoil hat and all.

and honestly I bet most of them actually believe the reptoid thing, they just think admitting it will hurt the "truth movement"


Jon

[XXX]

Doesn't this line from a thread over there just sum it all up...

Even without seeing the film (and it's very persuasively clear line of questions which lead one to an uncomfortable conclusion):

1) We all have an "innate" sense of how things work in nature. It is this innate sense that leads us to understand laws of physics, such as centrifugal motion, torque, and the like, without having to earn a PhD in the subject. Can any rational, thinking, and most importantly honest person really say that the way the towers fell was not "unusual", and very similar to the way buildings would fall in a demoltion?

Excuse me, I'd like a position as a physics professor. No, I don't have a PHD, but like most other humans I was born with an "innate" sense of how physics works, so I believe I am qualified.

[Gravy]

"plaguepuppy" (aka Jeff King) now posting at the LC forums:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4965&view=findpost&p=4977084

Gravy, if we can set up an online (forum-style) debate between you and Jeff, are you game?
Ha! What a moron that guy is. My first reaction was, "jeez, wouldn't it be nice to have someone to debate who is smart enough to know that the north tower "spire" isn't part of the core? (Jeff King thinks it is part of the core.) That's Christophera country."

On the home page (http://plaguepuppy.net/) of his website, he both touts that incredibly piece of moonbat paranoia by Richard Allen Grove, and shows that he (King) agrees with Grove that the WTC began construction in 1971. Liike Dylan Avery, he's been "researching" this stuff for years. Ugh.

He also apparently big on the idea that the U.S. government controls the weather.

The problem with debating these people is that anyone dumb enough to debate us isn't going to be able to last in the debate, and people who it would be fun to debate (Steven E. Jones, David Ray Griffin et al.) are smart enough that they would never agree to a debate.

edited: spelling

[steve s]

It's funny, because he uses as an exemple "centrifugal motion", something a lot of peoples (intuitively) would describe as a "force" even if its not. It's a great exemple of something that is believed "intuitively" but is still very wrong.


I was going to post over there an explanation of why centrifugal force is just an illusion, but someone (mirts) beat me to it. Is that you?

From that same thread, posted by Popol Vuh...
I believe that people committed these acts because these acts took place. And I believe I have a good idea of who's behind them, not because hard evidence in the form of fingerprints and confessions, but by the benefits gained in the aftermath- in resources, territory, reproduction, survival and confort.

Territory? Reproduction?! Wow. What does that even mean? These guys are really grasping at straws.

Steve S.

[Manny]

OK, I finally got around to seeing the LC3 preview dealie. Well, OK, I didn't see the whole thing, but I caught the front end of each scene to see what was going on.

He's making it up. He says that this thing "started" as a project to get into film school. I say it's still a project to get into film school. An elaborate piece of performance art to see who he can get in on his "movement." It is literally impossible to believe as many factually false things as he claims to believe. I predict that LC3 will be a big "ha ha, joke's on you" compilation of his sycophants looking like idiots at the public appearances he's arranged.

[Manny]

Territory? Reproduction?! Wow. What does that even mean? What, you think Clinton is the only President to diddle the interns? Bush is walking back to the steno pool and asking "who wants to see some shock and awe, baby?"

[Gravy]

From that same thread, posted by Popol Vuh...
Territory? Reproduction?! Wow. What does that even mean? These guys are really grasping at straws.
Steve S.
I for one am very glad that popul vuh doesn't know what reproduction means.

[Pidge]

One word: Jeb.
Quit it, will ya?

That's not funny ;-)

[Orb]

OK, I finally got around to seeing the LC3 preview dealie. Well, OK, I didn't see the whole thing, but I caught the front end of each scene to see what was going on.

He's making it up. He says that this thing "started" as a project to get into film school. I say it's still a project to get into film school. An elaborate piece of performance art to see who he can get in on his "movement." It is literally impossible to believe as many factually false things as he claims to believe. I predict that LC3 will be a big "ha ha, joke's on you" compilation of his sycophants looking like idiots at the public appearances he's arranged.

That would've been pretty damn awesome, except for the fact that a lot of real people died that day. I think he's really sick either way.

[chipmunk stew]

Ha! What a moron that guy is. My first reaction was, "jeez, wouldn't it be nice to have someone to debate who is smart enough to know that the north tower "spire" isn't part of the core? (Jeff King thinks it is part of the core.) That's Christophera country."

On the home page (http://plaguepuppy.net/) of his website, he both touts that incredibly piece of moonbat paranoia by Richard Allen Grove, and shows that he (King) agrees with Grove that the WTC began construction in 1971. Liike Dylan Avery, he's been "researching" this stuff for years. Ugh.

He also apparently big on the idea that the U.S. government controls the weather.

The problem with debating these people is that anyone dumb enough to debate us isn't going to be able to last in the debate, and people who it would be fun to debate (Steven E. Jones, David Ray Griffin et al.) are smart enough that they would never agree to a debate.

edited: spellingMaybe we could take one from the Dylan Avery play book and just start announcing all over the place that Jones or Griffin has agreed to debate you. :D

Or we could be slightly more honest and just say that you agreed to debate them, conveniently leaving out the fact that they haven't said one way or the other. ;)



I'm kidding...but only kind of.

[ZouPrime]

I was going to post over there an explanation of why centrifugal force is just an illusion, but someone (mirts) beat me to it. Is that you?

Nope. I don't have any account there, and don't plan to create one.

[kookbreaker]

Just let it go.


Someone needs to tell questy that its not they who need to let anything go.

Any idea what spurred this unbanning? Complaints from the group's working brain cell? Nasty words from those who hold the server wires?

[Manny]

Someone needs to tell questy that its not they who need to let anything go.

Any idea what spurred this unbanning? Complaints from the group's working brain cell? Nasty words from those who hold the server wires?I will say, in somone's (I know not whose) defense, that the most prolific banners quickly become banned themselves there. There was that OKsomethingsomethingnumber guy -- he's gone. Unregistered. And then there was a guy before that, I forget his handle, who did the first wave of JREF bannings. He got into a fight with either Rox or DJ, I think, and he got disappeared too.

[Pardalis]

OK, I finally got around to seeing the LC3 preview dealie. Well, OK, I didn't see the whole thing, but I caught the front end of each scene to see what was going on.

He's making it up. He says that this thing "started" as a project to get into film school. I say it's still a project to get into film school. An elaborate piece of performance art to see who he can get in on his "movement." It is literally impossible to believe as many factually false things as he claims to believe. I predict that LC3 will be a big "ha ha, joke's on you" compilation of his sycophants looking like idiots at the public appearances he's arranged.

I think he's way in over his head now, and the "I just made a student film" scenario is his escape route.

[Pardalis]

I will say, in somone's (I know not whose) defense, that the most prolific banners quickly become banned themselves there. There was that OKsomethingsomethingnumber guy -- he's gone. Unregistered. And then there was a guy before that, I forget his handle, who did the first wave of JREF bannings. He got into a fight with either Rox or DJ, I think, and he got disappeared too.

You know, when I read your posts I can almost hear your New York accent. It's really enjoyable!;)

[Gravy]

Maybe we could take one from the Dylan Avery play book and just start announcing all over the place that Jones or Griffin has agreed to debate you. :D

Or we could be slightly more honest and just say that you agreed to debate them, conveniently leaving out the fact that they haven't said one way or the other. ;)

I'm kidding...but only kind of.

Well, let's not forget the "Scholars for Truth" superstars "Team Liberty," (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.html) who have challenged "The Government" to a debate on September 16.

Since no one from the government is going to accept the challenge, and since the government ultimately works for me, I'm going to accept the challenge. Won't it be a nice photo, me and a pitcher of water at a long table on one side, and the 7 "Scholars" on the other side?

Seriously, though, their challenge to the government is a joke. They just want to brag that no one in the government will answer their challenge or face their "evidence." So how about organizing a JREF 9/11 debate team and challenging these "Scholars" to a moderated debate in a neutral location? If they say yes, we'll make monkeys out of them, and if they say no, we'll have the same bragging rights that they're looking for.

We'll need a catchy name. "Laymen Opposed to Lunacy" (LOL)?

[Polaris]

What, you think Clinton is the only President to diddle the interns? Bush is walking back to the steno pool and asking "who wants to see some shock and awe, baby?"

That would make me have some respect for the guy. If I found out tomorrow that the whole Pat Robertson, Billy Graham evangelism stuff was just an act, a put on, I'd sleep a lot easier.

[dubfan]

Well, let's not forget the "Scholars for Truth" superstars "Team Liberty," (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.html) who have challenged "The Government" to a debate on September 16.

Since no one from the government is going to accept the challenge, and since the government ultimately works for me, I'm going to accept the challenge. Won't it be a nice photo, me and a pitcher of water at a long table on one side, and the 7 "Scholars" on the other side?

Seriously, though, their challenge to the government is a joke. They just want to brag that no one in the government will answer their challenge or face their "evidence." So how about organizing a JREF 9/11 debate team and challenging these "Scholars" to a moderated debate in a neutral location? If they say yes, we'll make monkeys out of them, and if they say no, we'll have the same bragging rights that they're looking for.

We'll need a catchy name. "Laymen Opposed to Lunacy" (LOL)?

Sign me up.

I like your name, too, Gravy, but there can really be only one name, and we all know what that is.

[Pardalis]

We'll need a catchy name. "Laymen Opposed to Lunacy" (LOL)?

Good one.

How about this one: "Reality Advocates Strike Back"

[Manny]

Sign me up.

I like your name, too, Gravy, but there can really be only one name, and we all know what that is.Skeptics Helping Inform Lame Loosers?

Para, thanks!

[Gravy]

Sign me up.

I like your name, too, Gravy, but there can really be only one name, and we all know what that is.
Ninjas for Truth?

[dubfan]

I will say, in somone's (I know not whose) defense, that the most prolific banners quickly become banned themselves there. There was that OKsomethingsomethingnumber guy -- he's gone. Unregistered. And then there was a guy before that, I forget his handle, who did the first wave of JREF bannings. He got into a fight with either Rox or DJ, I think, and he got disappeared too.

Yes, that's true. It's not a consistent application of common sense, but flashes of it are occasionally seen. I had a few brief discussions with RedPillNeo and he was reasonably fair and sensible.

During the last wave of mass JREF suspensions, they also banned outright OCMARK (deleted his account). Apart from his dogged insistence that all skeptics be banned, OCMARK was mainly noteworthy for his skillful debate technique of posting pictures of Bozo the Clown.

[dubfan]

Skeptics Helping Inform Lame Loosers?


:D

Nominated.

[kookbreaker]

I will say, in somone's (I know not whose) defense, that the most prolific banners quickly become banned themselves there. There was that OKsomethingsomethingnumber guy -- he's gone. Unregistered. And then there was a guy before that, I forget his handle, who did the first wave of JREF bannings. He got into a fight with either Rox or DJ, I think, and he got disappeared too.

I guess one could call it 'Active Commander' syndrome. Somehow the Admin thinks that the agressive and active members of a forum should be its guardians since they are so 'with the cause' or somesuch. So they put them in charge and the loudmouth starts banning everyone they lose an arguement with.

I remember a few of the moderated USENET groups had situautions like this.

[dubfan]

Ninjas for Truth?

Team JREF Ninja WAVE!!!

[Belz...]

Allright, people.

Now I'm a Ninja too!

You asked for it.

ETA: Beware my Infernal Pincer Attack.

[bob_kark]

Allright, people.

Now I'm a Ninja too!

You asked for it.

:Banane08: I am Ninja, he is Ninja, she is Ninja too! I am Ninja, we are Ninja, but I believe that you are Ninja too!!:Banane08:

[dubfan]

ETA: Beware my Infernal Pincer Attack.

Yeah, but can you defeat even one of the 1000 Fighting Styles of Donald Rumsfeld (http://www.poe-news.com/features.php?feat=31845)?

Spider Hand Technique!

[60hzxtl]

OK, I finally got around to seeing the LC3 preview dealie. Well, OK, I didn't see the whole thing, but I caught the front end of each scene to see what was going on.

He's making it up. He says that this thing "started" as a project to get into film school. I say it's still a project to get into film school. An elaborate piece of performance art to see who he can get in on his "movement." It is literally impossible to believe as many factually false things as he claims to believe. I predict that LC3 will be a big "ha ha, joke's on you" compilation of his sycophants looking like idiots at the public appearances he's arranged.


Yeah, but now he's working on the "image" Glasses on the head, lizard eyes, just too hip for you, and he's interviewing himself, and he believes it. Listen for the " I," "I," "I ."

Everything else over there is chatter. That speech with the bullhorn? Performance art for sure. Is this to keep the cult happy while he researches, or to throw debunkers off the trail?

Now where did that empty gold truck go. . .

[bob_kark]

Yeah, but can you defeat even one of the 1000 Fighting Styles of Donald Rumsfeld (http://www.poe-news.com/features.php?feat=31845)?

Spider Hand Technique!

Donald Rumsfeld can not fight what he can not see.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/632744810669749f5.jpg

[kookbreaker]

Night of a Million Zillion Ninjas!

Ninj-o-rama!

..and a cast of Ninjas!

Skepti-Ninja!

Nin-JREF-tsu!

[Polaris]

Absolutely not! Why do you think those costumes are so big? Snow White has a Stinger launcher under her skirt, and Donald Duck has been known to tote a RPG launcher. Can't be too careful nowadays.

They store all that stuff in that secret basketball court in Space Mountain.

[kookbreaker]

Loose Trains! (http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/)

Proof!!!!!

Hey, its as good if not better than the stuff the Loosers come up with.

[Regnad Kcin]

That made me smile, kook.

[Polaris]

Of course they won't convert. It's just good to take what entertainment value away that you can. Laughing keeps us sane.

You don't put a video liket his together all by yourself in a week and interview experts!

I have to admit, I am a little bit grateful to the Loosers - if I hadn't gotten mad enough to eat someone after watching Loose Change, I'd never have learned so much about 9/11 and the actual details of the events that day (course, I still have to read the Commission Report).

[WildCat]

Loose Trains! (http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/)

Proof!!!!!

Hey, its as good if not better than the stuff the Loosers come up with.
That is hilarious! :D

[Brainster]

Ha! What a moron that guy is. My first reaction was, "jeez, wouldn't it be nice to have someone to debate who is smart enough to know that the north tower "spire" isn't part of the core? (Jeff King thinks it is part of the core.) That's Christophera country."

The guy in 9-11 Eyewitness claimed it, but I did wonder--it looks remarkably like the exterior. Is it the section that hit the Winter Garden and WFC 3? I remember seeing some photos on here a day or two ago that sure seemed to match up.

BTW, if anybody sees anything wrong posted at Screw Loose Change, I'd sure appreciate a heads-up here. I'm still learning my way around this stuff. If I haven't mentioned it before, the only reason I heard about Loose Change was because I wanted to see United 93 and the Loosers were spreading their hate anyplace that the film was discussed. I did know the terms LIHOP and MIHOP, but I wasn't much attuned to this nonsense before April.

This forum gets the really smart folks on LC, we get the Googlers (we've been between 5th and 9th on Google Searches for "Loose Change" for about a month, higher for things like "Loose Change Debunking" and "Loose Change Lies"). My guess is we're getting about 500 hits a day off the search engines, which I hope means we're getting the folks looking for ammo, who've either just watched the movie or are getting urged to watch it by a friend/family member.

Let me say too, that after watching Markyx's terrific debunking all the way through that I thought you deserved way more credit; I'm sure that will be taken care of in V2! ;)

[NobbyNobbs]

I was going to post over there an explanation of why centrifugal force is just an illusion, but someone (mirts) beat me to it. Is that you?



That would be me. I just couldn't stay quiet any longer.

[NobbyNobbs]

Donald Rumsfeld can not fight what he can not see.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/632744810669749f5.jpg


SPOON!!!

(Fwubba, fwubba, fwubba.....)

[RandFan]

That would be me. I just couldn't stay quiet any longer. That was so perfect. An excellent object lesson of exactly why the guy was wrong.

And remember it was that "innate sense" that led people to believe that the world was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects, etc., etc..

[JamesB]

I got in an extended e-mail debate with a Seattle U philosophy professor who is in the "Scholars" for 9/11 "truth". He wrote an editorial in the Seattle-PI, and I got them to run a letter to the editor explaining his faulty argument. He was a loon. I told him that he was being dishonest and violating the very principle of scientific reason and he got all uppity and accused me of violating academic decorum. It was especially funny when I referred to Mr. Griffin repeatedly, and in his reply he changed all my wording to Dr. Griffin.

Everytime I proved one of his arguments wrong he would change his argument, and then claim that he had won. Then he had the gall to accuse me of using poor logic.

Of course he would always just end with their ultimate cop out, "well we are just asking questions"

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
Of course he would always just end with their ultimate cop out, "well we are just asking questions"

I'm starting to think our default reply to this maneuver should be, "Gee, I wonder if you still beat your significant other?"

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Under the heading "If Irony Could Kill":


When an Administrator and many 'regulars' state that despite this preponderance of evidence that they 'believe' we didn't go to the Moon, it makes it appear that you will believe Everything and Anything, and thus bring discredit on the LC/9-11 movement.

What preponderance of evidence is this?

The fact that we blah, blah, blah...
[ed. moan hoax gibberish deleted]

I think DJLegacy recognized that, which is why he wants these posts stopped or moved to Under the Bridge.

I defer to the administrators for strategic decisions, but if this website ever starts burying the truth, I will leave or, even worse, start trolling to the best of my abilities.


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5416

Translation:If you all don't subscribe to all of MY pet thoeries, I'm gunna get my dumb ass banned in less than 4 posts like the JREF people.

The emotional maturity of the loosers boggles the mind. How do any of these people get past job interviews or credit applications?

[Ducky]

Anyone know if other sources of the non-original content in any of the LC films have threatened suit over copyright infringement?

Even if Dylan removed all of it for version 3 or whatnot, there's still copies floating around of 1 and 2...

[Pidge]

but for some reason I keep thinking that Dylan's video's title would be far more accurate and descriptive if it was LS - "Loose Stool".

[Hutch]

Well, just went over there at 0630 CST and it appears that I have been banned again. Wish they would make up their minds...

[Shrinker]

Well, just went over there at 0630 CST and it appears that I have been banned again. Wish they would make up their minds...

I just read that. Banned for suggesting astronauts may have been to the moon. Nice work!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560&st=180

[Belz...]

Nin-JREF-tsu!

And let's not forget to mention the real meanings of some of our most secret techniques:

Nocturnal Instant Strike Technique
Fist of the Eternal Moon Attack
Crow Impact Attack
Fleeting Brow Illusion
Jackal Rush Entrancing Finish

Of course, all of the non-globalist, non-Team JREF Ninja Wave will simply forget this information in about 30 seconds...

[bob_kark]

You forgot:

Punching Urchin Swift Attack
Biting Ugly Swan Hit
Grinding Leap Of Badger Acumen Leaving Instant Submissive Tiger

[60hzxtl]

Anyone know if other sources of the non-original content in any of the LC films have threatened suit over copyright infringement?

Even if Dylan removed all of it for version 3 or whatnot, there's still copies floating around of 1 and 2...
I like the way his current tease ends:

"Loose Change Final Cut

American theaters:

9/11/06"

then at 57 :47

"WE HOPE"

They are telling themselves stories and they believe them!

Over on the description side of the frame:

A presentation of both the actions of Louder Than Words and a preview of content from Loose Change: Final Cut which was intended for broadcast at the 9/11 Truth Chicago Conference but later deemed unnecessary due to miscommunication.

Broadcast? How 'bout 'screening' and the howler: "deemed unnecessary due to miscommunication"

I guess they are the only ones who know the truth!

Here's a phrase for your future Dylan:

Errors and Omissions Insurance.

It's what the big boys have to get to broadcast. Or screen in distribution. Not just use the auditorium of the local opera group.

Good luck getting it.

Hey, anyone notice that a (short) work week has gone by at the law offices of the Naudet Bros? Not so easy huh, Dylan?

[Belz...]

Just finished watching Screw Loose Change, which happens to be the first time I watched Loose Change outside of transcripts and Gravy's own work.

Just one thing to say.

I. HATE. AVERY.

Carry on.

[Belz...]

You forgot:

Punching Urchin Swift Attack
Biting Ugly Swan Hit
Grinding Leap Of Badger Acumen Leaving Instant Submissive Tiger

I didn't forget. Didn't you get the memo ?? You weren't supposed to divulge these! The memory-wipe hasn't been properly conditioned into people for those terms!!

Oh, well. More work for Delphi.

[Johnny Pixels]

I got told over on the Loose Change forums that a cloud of dust is a gas, and would require huge amounts of thermal energy for it to expand the way it did on 9/11. This is what happens when you don't let kids have bonfires...

[Regnad Kcin]

I just read that. Banned for suggesting astronauts may have been to the moon. Nice work!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560&st=180Suffer the little children.

Be it a club, a clique, or a cult, Loosers is the kwaziest peoples!

[juryjone]

Ooh, ooh, can I be a ninja, too?

(only if you guys really want... if not, I'll just be standing over here...)



Inspired by "Loose Trains", I was going to photoshop a picture for "Loose Hanes", but looking at source pictures just made me too sad. D***, I hate these looser b******* for defiling the memory of those people!

[WildCat]

Have the loosers run out of volunteers to come here and confound us w/ their proof of the 9/11 inside job? So many ninjas, so little to do...

[brodski]

This is what happens when you don't let kids have bonfires... Which is ironic, given the number of people over there who are promoting "V for vendetta" as some kind of prophetic documentary, instead of a work of fantasy and fiction, mind you, the same could be said about LC2E itself....

[Kage]

Am I the only one who is surprised that the LC makes no mention of Able Danger? I mean, they seem to be shying away from any "evidence" that has any basis in fact whatsoever. I'm starting to buy the idea that this is just performance art.

Note: I am not claiming that Able Danger is being supressed because it shows a larger conspiracy.

[dubfan]

Am I the only one who is surprised that the LC makes no mention of Able Danger? I mean, they seem to be shying away from any "evidence" that has any basis in fact whatsoever. I'm starting to buy the idea that this is just performance art.

Note: I am not claiming that Able Danger is being supressed because it shows a larger conspiracy.

This gets to the larger context that the CTs are operating within -- i.e., LC is SO BAD that some 9/11 CTs think it is disinformation. There are other 9/11 CTs that are marginally more reality-based (the LIHOP proponents) and make a bigger deal out of both Able Danger and Sibel Edmonds.

[MarkyX]

I've been so far accused of the following via email:

- Working for the CIA
- I'm a mossad agent
- I'm a freemason
- I'm Dylan's assassin

Continue.

[60hzxtl]

I've been so far accused of the following via email:

- Working for the CIA
- I'm a mossad agent
- I'm a freemason
- I'm Dylan's assassin

Continue.


Good for you, the first two I expect, provide a pay check.


Double dipping?

Good for you!

As for the third, I have some bricks on my steps that need the mortar replaced. Busy on Tuesday?

[Ersby]

I'm just getting back up to speed, and I like this:

I just watched Mark's Part 7, and I think the CT'ers missed what really brought the WTC down: at 8:34 the fireman from the Naudet Bros film (remember them? ) mentions "a huge cloud of sh*t"

How did we not see this?

It was the huge cloud of s*it that did the damage.
This could come in useful as a rebuttal to the "descriptions of explosions" that Loosers keep mentioning. Not necessarily in a proper Gravyesque rebuttal, but it's one to keep in mind if you're in the pub and need to score an easy point off a CTer.

[Kent1]

I'm just getting back up to speed, and I like this:


This could come in useful as a rebuttal to the "descriptions of explosions" that Loosers keep mentioning. Not necessarily in a proper Gravyesque rebuttal, but it's one to keep in mind if you're in the pub and need to score an easy point off a CTer.

Heads up, there is a phony explosion audio/video being passed around.
Such as the one linked to at Plaguepuppys site from the trinity video.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/#spire
http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/audio01.html#trinity

Now after you listen to the fake, here is the original

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true

Other videos (some taken closer) of cource also do not have the loud explosions heard in the mediumrecords fake.
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem4/911.w....west.below.wmv

[60hzxtl]

I'm just getting back up to speed, and I like this:


This could come in useful as a rebuttal to the "descriptions of explosions" that Loosers keep mentioning. Not necessarily in a proper Gravyesque rebuttal, but it's one to keep in mind if you're in the pub and need to score an easy point off a CTer.


Then again, we could go to the next Loser's demonstration and pop a brown paper bag every few minutes, and announce,

"Sounds like an explosion to me!"

[60hzxtl]

I just went to the medium records site.

I guess the towers should have fallen silently.

Does this "expert" know what an explosion is?

If something pops from heat, compression or a small charge, the sound signature is the same - because the same forces are at work.

Sound is air pressure.

His analysis may be nifty, but it's meaningless.

[Gravy]

I got told over on the Loose Change forums that a cloud of dust is a gas, and would require huge amounts of thermal energy for it to expand the way it did on 9/11. This is what happens when you don't let kids have bonfires...
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904481c05116219.jpg
Pyroclasticpen

[bob_kark]

Pyroclasticpen

Somehow I knew Charles Schultz was involved from beyond the grave.

[brodski]

Somehow I knew Charles Schultz was involved from beyond the grave. where snoopy and Woodstock the chief hijackers?

[bob_kark]

where snoopy and Woodstock the chief hijackers?

Not only do I believe it, I have proof!

Snoopy (http://red-baron.blog-cafe.net/images/snoopy4.jpg)

[Shrinker]

Heads up, there is a phony explosion audio/video being passed around.
Such as the one linked to at Plaguepuppys site from the trinity video.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/#spire
http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/audio01.html#trinity

Now after you listen to the fake, here is the original

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true

Other videos (some taken closer) of cource also do not have the loud explosions heard in the mediumrecords fake.
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem4/911.w....west.below.wmv

Whoops, that's set an unfortunate precedent. Now we get to question the authenticity every bit of evidence they present. Bad move, truth seekers. (Or nice move infiltrators;))

I don't know whether it's best to expose this now while Jeff King (he's plaguepuppy right?) has it on his website, or expose it when they've all got it on their websites.

[brodski]

I'm starting to think our default reply to this maneuver should be, "Gee, I wonder if you still beat your significant other?" don't be ridiculous, non of the Loosers have wives or girlfriends, that's mainly because every time they go out to "pull" a girl, they end up destroying her in a controlled demolition...

[Orb]

don't be ridiculous, non of the Loosers have wives or girlfriends, that's mainly because every time they go out to "pull" a girl, they end up destroying her in a controlled demolition...

Or their dad won't let them borrow the car.

[Brainster]

Am I the only one who is surprised that the LC makes no mention of Able Danger? I mean, they seem to be shying away from any "evidence" that has any basis in fact whatsoever. I'm starting to buy the idea that this is just performance art.

Note: I am not claiming that Able Danger is being supressed because it shows a larger conspiracy.

Able Danger really only works well for the LIHOP people. Dylan doesn't believe in the hijackers, ergo Able Danger is of limited utility.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"I had two weeks of depression after seeing this film, and I've never been depressed in my life. I can say with 100 percent confidence that this was an inside job by our government."
- Scottsdale Community College Prof. Carrie Jones

Here's a hypothetical for the armchair lawyers here (or even the real ones if there are any).

If a member of a persons family falls into severe depression from watching Loose Change as miss Jones claims to have done and the victim kills him or herself, given the outright lies in LC (free fall collapse, "neatly into it's own footprint", etc...) can Avery & co. be held liable in a wrongful death suit?

Better yet, could he be held criminally liable?

[Pardalis]

- Scottsdale Community College Prof. Carrie Jones

Here's a hypothetical for the armchair lawyers here (or even the real ones if there are any).

If a member of a persons family falls into severe depression from watching Loose Change as miss Jones claims to have done and the victim kills him or herself, given the outright lies in LC (free fall collapse, "neatly into it's own footprint", etc...) can Avery & co. be held liable in a wrongful death suit?

Better yet, could he be held criminally liable?

With all the errors and lies in LC, if she still believes it 100 % she can't teach, she should get fired. It won't help her depression though if she's out of a job, but everybody is responsible and accountable for their own stupidity.

[ktesibios]

Heads up, there is a phony explosion audio/video being passed around.
Such as the one linked to at Plaguepuppys site from the trinity video.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/#spire
http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/audio01.html#trinity

Now after you listen to the fake, here is the original

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true

Other videos (some taken closer) of cource also do not have the loud explosions heard in the mediumrecords fake.
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem4/911.w....west.below.wmv

The bogusness of the Trinity Church audio clip is obvious. Apart from the explosion noises, the crowd sounds don't come close to matching those on the original, although the videos are all clearly from the same original source material.

Oddly, neither the video clip on mediumrecords' site nor its apparent source at terrorize.dk seem to have any audio at all- at least not that Quicktime or DIVX Player on this Mac can recover. I'll have to see how they play on my PC at home.

I'm curious to find out if the mediumrecords guy is innocently doing spectral analyses on something that someone else hoked up or if he's cooked up the whole megillah himself.

[steve s]

This is in regard to the sounds of explosions. One thing I've never really heard discussed is the sound that a steel beam makes when it breaks. I took some Materials Science classes when I was working on my engineering degree. One of the things we would do is put a steel bar in a hydraulic press, pull it apart to failure, and then study the stresses that build up. The bars were only about as thick as your thumb, but when one of those puppies would break it was about as loud as a gunshot.

Now imagine a 14" X 14" steel column breaking. It would probably be as loud as a stick of TNT. The WTC had 240 of these beams around its perimeter. Imagine the noise of all those beams breaking at once. And people wonder why it sounded like explosions going off. And that's ignoring the sound of the floors slamming into each other.

Steve S.

[sleahead]

If a member of a persons family falls into severe depression from watching Loose Change as miss Jones claims to have done and the victim kills him or herself, given the outright lies in LC (free fall collapse, "neatly into it's own footprint", etc...) can Avery & co. be held liable in a wrongful death suit?

Better yet, could he be held criminally liable?

I don't think such a lawsuit would succeed, but I'm no lawyer. I'm sure someone might get lawyered up and have a go. I recall some lawsuits against rock stars, by persons claiming the lyrics made them do things, failed. Dylan also placed the handy disclaimer "Do your own research" on his website.

Perhaps we should take pity on Professor Jones. Do you have an email address? If so, send the instant remedy to Loose Change induced depression - a link to Gravy's Viewers Guide.

[Kage]

The "we are just asking questions" exccuse tells me that teachers sould stop telling students that there are no stupid questions. LC is evidense that there are REALLY stupid questions.

[Ramooone]

This is in regard to the sounds of explosions. One thing I've never really heard discussed is the sound that a steel beam makes when it breaks. I took some Materials Science classes when I was working on my engineering degree. One of the things we would do is put a steel bar in a hydraulic press, pull it apart to failure, and then study the stresses that build up. The bars were only about as thick as your thumb, but when one of those puppies would break it was about as loud as a gunshot.

Now imagine a 14" X 14" steel column breaking. It would probably be as loud as a stick of TNT. The WTC had 240 of these beams around its perimeter. Imagine the noise of all those beams breaking at once. And people wonder why it sounded like explosions going off. And that's ignoring the sound of the floors slamming into each other.

Steve S.


heres video of a giant crane snapping and collapsing, sounds an awful lot like an explosion een though it isn't
http://911myths.com/collapse2.rm

[Mr. Skinny]

This is in regard to the sounds of explosions. One thing I've never really heard discussed is the sound that a steel beam makes when it breaks. I took some Materials Science classes when I was working on my engineering degree. One of the things we would do is put a steel bar in a hydraulic press, pull it apart to failure, and then study the stresses that build up. The bars were only about as thick as your thumb, but when one of those puppies would break it was about as loud as a gunshot.

Now imagine a 14" X 14" steel column breaking. It would probably be as loud as a stick of TNT. The WTC had 240 of these beams around its perimeter. Imagine the noise of all those beams breaking at once. And people wonder why it sounded like explosions going off. And that's ignoring the sound of the floors slamming into each other.

Steve S.
(bolding mine)

Steve, I think you are thinking of an MTS machine (for Materials Testing Solutions Corp., I think). They are technically not a press, but rather a dynamic testing machine that, as you said, pulls the item apart, so it's not the same as a hydraulic press.

I know what you mean about the noise. I was in one of our labs about two weeks ago when the tested a composite aircraft patch to failure. It sounded like a .22 caliber gun going off. I can't imagine how loud a steel I-beam would sound if it failed in tension. Then again, I imagine most of the WTC steel would fail in torsion or shear (but I'm no structural engineer).

[Mongrel]

Oddly, neither the video clip on mediumrecords' site nor its apparent source at terrorize.dk seem to have any audio at all- at least not that Quicktime or DIVX Player on this Mac can recover. I'll have to see how they play on my PC at home.

May well be the Xvid Codec (http://xvid.com/), those bastiges have hooked onto the Looser train. Yet another reason to not use that POS :mad:

[Gravy]

Perhaps we should take pity on Professor Jones. Do you have an email address? If so, send the instant remedy to Loose Change induced depression - a link to Gravy's Viewers Guide.
I did that when this story first came out. No word if she's with the quick or the dead, though!

[Gravy]

Good catch on the fake audio, Kent1 et al. Has anyone emailed mediumrecords about it?

[Ducky]

The bogusness of the Trinity Church audio clip is obvious. Apart from the explosion noises, the crowd sounds don't come close to matching those on the original, although the videos are all clearly from the same original source material.

Oddly, neither the video clip on mediumrecords' site nor its apparent source at terrorize.dk seem to have any audio at all- at least not that Quicktime or DIVX Player on this Mac can recover. I'll have to see how they play on my PC at home.

I'm curious to find out if the mediumrecords guy is innocently doing spectral analyses on something that someone else hoked up or if he's cooked up the whole megillah himself.


This is seriously the WORST job of foley work I have ever heard.

This was cooked up by an amateur. As a professional I can't imagine anyone doing such a crap job.

PS. pull the audio into a wav editing tool. Tell me if you see anything amiss...

[Ramooone]

yeah, that audio is totally fake. that explosion plugin is part of the sountrack pro program.

[NobbyNobbs]

That was so perfect. An excellent object lesson of exactly why the guy was wrong.


Thanks very much!

[NobbyNobbs]

I think I'm getting better at this rebuttal thing. Over at LC, Riptide hung himself twice with his own words, and I got the opportunity to set him straight both times!

I'm starting to feel a little more confident about this "logical argument" thing.....

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235