Loose Change - Part II

[Pardalis]

I think I'm getting better at this rebuttal thing. Over at LC, Riptide hung himself twice with his own words, and I got the opportunity to set him straight both times!

I'm starting to feel a little more confident about this "logical argument" thing.....

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235

Wow, good work, nice "répartie". (I assume you are "mirts")

[Regnad Kcin]

Have the loosers run out of volunteers to come here and confound us w/ their proof of the 9/11 inside job? So many ninjas, so little to do...Our little friend geggy is no doubt scurrying around for some fresh links. He'll be back.

As for anyone else, my offer still stands:

Dear Loose Change forum member:

Please take a moment and register at the JREF. Then, in this thread (or the soon to be started Pt. 17) post your "fact(s)" or question, one at a time, sticking as best you can to the subject of your choosing. You will enjoy thoughtful and interesting discussion, likely to challenge not only your point, or belief, but also your critical thinking methods.

Be advised you will not be banned (as long as you adhere to the fair and impartial forum rules), but you will no doubt be treated with a high degree of tenacity. Unsupported allegations, innuendo, leading questions, logical fallacies, and other techniques will be pointed out to you. As you should if you encounter them here or anywhere else.

This is not a "challenge," but rather an invitation. The welcome mat is out.

RK

[Pardalis]

Which is ironic, given the number of people over there who are promoting "V for vendetta" as some kind of prophetic documentary, instead of a work of fantasy and fiction, mind you, the same could be said about LC2E itself....

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It bothers me that so much people believe the film is an accurate portrait of our world. I wonder why there aren't that many suicides though...

It's also disturbing to see that a person who sets bombs and uses violence as a means to make a statement is a "hero" to them.

Just look at these incredibly good reviews (don't worry, alot of them are in English, you just have to sort throught them):

http://www.cinemamontreal.com/aw/crva.aw/p.cm/r.que/m.Montreal/j.e/i.8531/s.0/f.V_pour_Vendetta_v_f_.html

Remember these are ordinary everyday people. It astonishes me how this paranoia is growing in the general public, how regular people can get so irrational so quickly.

I personally found the picture quite ordinary (I guess it's a matter of taste), but most of these dithyrambic reviews are largely biased by anti-american propaganda.

edited for english

[Pardalis]

Our little friend geggy

It is kind of hard to imagine geggy being a tall hardy guy isn't it?:D

[RandFan]

I think I'm getting better at this rebuttal thing. Over at LC, Riptide hung himself twice with his own words, and I got the opportunity to set him straight both times!

I'm starting to feel a little more confident about this "logical argument" thing.....

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235

Very good and this IS the basis for critical thinking, skepticism, science and the reason why folks like Randi who understand the psychology and human perception are so very important.

Things are not always as they appear.

[60hzxtl]

This is seriously the WORST job of foley work I have ever heard.

This was cooked up by an amateur. As a professional I can't imagine anyone doing such a crap job.

PS. pull the audio into a wav editing tool. Tell me if you see anything amiss...
Now I have to run it thru Adobe Audition I'd like to see the .wav image.- and let me add some first hand knowledge - the Trinity footage was camera mike, on auto level, (Panasonic DV Cam.) and let's see of anybody passes off any sound from that camera after the collapse - because the mike was torn off in the dust cloud - the camera was picked up by the mike instead of the handle.

[ihaunter]

In a previous post here I was saying how so many of the CTers beliefs are built around a naive trust into what we call "common sense". This post on the LC forum shows it very well:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207



It's funny, because he uses as an exemple "centrifugal motion", something a lot of peoples (intuitively) would describe as a "force" even if its not. It's a great exemple of something that is believed "intuitively" but is still very wrong.



Another thing to note about this "innate sense of how things work" is that magician's love it. It is often the case that the more confident a person is that they know what is going on, the easier it is to fool them. I would describe it as letting them fool themselves. Which seems to describe many loosers as well.

[60hzxtl]

It is kind of hard to imagine geggy being a tall hardy guy isn't it?:D


Hey! Where is he - he hasn't been here since his snipe at me:

31st May 2006, 07:46 PM
<<<Mock mock mock

It's no wonder why you can't see the obviousness of the us government's complicity in sept 11, joker.>>

Did I get him?

Can I be a(n) honorary Ninja?

Ninja Assassin?

Or just joker. . .

[Pardalis]

Hey! Where is he - he hasn't been here since his snipe at me:

31st May 2006, 07:46 PM
<<<Mock mock mock

It's no wonder why you can't see the obviousness of the us government's complicity in sept 11, joker.>>

Did I get him?

Can I be an honorary Ninja?

Ninja Assassin?

Or just joker. . .

I think geggy did "arakiri" with that last statement.;)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think geggy did "arakiri" with that last statement.;)

Is that like seppuku?

[Regnad Kcin]

I think I'm getting better at this rebuttal thing. Over at LC, Riptide hung himself twice with his own words, and I got the opportunity to set him straight both times!

I'm starting to feel a little more confident about this "logical argument" thing.....

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235
As RandFan said, good for you.

I'm so tired of "something about the towers falling didn't look right" line of, er, reasoning. For one thing, how many examples of 100+ story towers falling after having been struck near their tops have people witnessed before? For another, dear alternate conspiracy theorists, having suspicion something happened is miles away from having proof something else did. May you not ever have to personally experience in a court of law the kind of limited burden of prosecutorial proof you seem so quick to embrace.

Again, one of my favorite sites (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/).

[Regnad Kcin]

Another thing to note about this "innate sense of how things work" is that magician's love it. It is often the case that the more confident a person is that they know what is going on, the easier it is to fool them...Well put!

[Pardalis]

Is that like seppuku?

Exactly.

[Pardalis]

I'm so tired of "something about the towers falling didn't look right" line of, er, reasoning. For one thing, how many examples of 100+ story towers falling after having been struck near their tops have people witnessed before?

I for one was surprised on 9/11 to see this plane being engulfed inside the tower as if it entered a cake. I never would have guessed that that's how such a thing would happen.

[Pardalis]

Another thing to note about this "innate sense of how things work" is that magician's love it. It is often the case that the more confident a person is that they know what is going on, the easier it is to fool them. I would describe it as letting them fool themselves. Which seems to describe many loosers as well.

That's exactly how magicians operate: They do alot of fancy gestures to distract our attention while they manipulate the cards behind their back.

[Ducky]

Now I have to run it thru Adobe Audition I'd like to see the .wav image.- and let me add some first hand knowledge - the Trinity footage was camera mike, on auto level, (Panasonic DV Cam.) and let's see of anybody passes off any sound from that camera after the collapse - because the mike was torn off in the dust cloud - the camera was picked up by the mike instead of the handle.


Seriously, it is exceptionally sloppy. It is definately done by someone that doesn't understand accoustics or has worked very much with audio mixing.

I would imagine there are ratehr big differences in level from explosion to the rest, though I haven't pulled it in to see. It is a very canned effect, and sounds exactly the same each time (which is a physicall impossibility) as well as at times seems disproportionately levelled to the rest of what is going on in the picture.

That panasonic uses auto volume controls through compression and gain control. if when compression doesn't prevent clipping the input it lowers level, which means it should look alot like mastered audio with little change in level aside from slight peaks.

If there's serious changes, it was faked.

It's almost as if it was done by a kid who didn't know much about sound and accoustics, or mixing properly for foley work.

...almost? no, I take that back: it is exactly like that.

[NobbyNobbs]

I think I may have just declared war on TheQuest. I wonder if he'll ban me?

I just wanted to point out that in this thread alone, TheQuest has
1. Called another poster a liar (repeatedly).
2. Called another poster a shill
3. Claimed that another poster is without a conscience.
4. Suggested that another poster "get a life".
5. Insinuated that other posters are trolls.
6. Insinuated that another poster had the mental ability of a child.
7. Said that another poster was not forthcoming.
8. Claimed that another poster was intentionally trying to discredit the "truth movement".
9, Heavy-handedly threatened to ban several posters (repeatedly).

And then has gone on to complain about the use of the word "fool". This seems like quite a double-standard to me. Can someone please try to justify it, so that I may better understand what's happening here? Thanks.

[RandFan]

I think I may have just declared war on TheQuest. I wonder if he'll ban me?The guy has no business being a moderator. I tangled with him a few times. I'm glad I got outa there. I couldn't take the dearth of intellectual honesty, understanding and grasp of logical argument and the inability to logically bitch slap morons without getting banned.

[Gravy]

I think I may have just declared war on TheQuest. I wonder if he'll ban me?
Yeah, Nobby!
(Yes, he will ban you, but maybe he'll also ban himself for breaking so many rules.)
How long will it be before there's no one left to ban over there?

[ktesibios]

Seriously, it is exceptionally sloppy. It is definately done by someone that doesn't understand accoustics or has worked very much with audio mixing.

I would imagine there are ratehr big differences in level from explosion to the rest, though I haven't pulled it in to see. It is a very canned effect, and sounds exactly the same each time (which is a physicall impossibility) as well as at times seems disproportionately levelled to the rest of what is going on in the picture.

That panasonic uses auto volume controls through compression and gain control. if when compression doesn't prevent clipping the input it lowers level, which means it should look alot like mastered audio with little change in level aside from slight peaks.

If there's serious changes, it was faked.

It's almost as if it was done by a kid who didn't know much about sound and accoustics, or mixing properly for foley work.

...almost? no, I take that back: it is exactly like that.

It has some dynamic range. In the 100 ms preceding the second "explosion" the peak levels are -2.75 to -3 dBFS; in the 100 ms after the attack of the "explosion" they go up to -0.7 to -0.8 dBFS. The RMS values increase too, but only by a little more than 1 dB. It also doesn't have the "pushed through an L2 set on stun" look I'm familiar with from mastered musical material, nor does it appear heavily squashed in general.

It also lacks the artifacts I'd expect from the sort of limiters you're likely to find in a camcorder- tight slope above threshold, fast attack and relatively slow release times- when confronted by the pressure waves from explosions. The arrival of a loud bang should cause the recorder to reduce gain and exert a ducking effect on the background sounds, but this doesn't seem to happen in this clip. Just before the first "explosion" there's an odd falling tone that sounds like it starts at about 800 Hz and sweeps downwards. The "explosion" has no effect on its level. That strikes me as wrong.

Another observation. If you listen to the original video, it's stone mono, which is quite consistent with a camera mic.

Not so the audio clip from mediumrecords. It's genuine stereo. The really interesting thing about that is that the spatial characteristics of the two "explosions" are very different. The first one is quite narrow and up the center while the second one is very wide and hasn't much of a center component.

Now, if you had set up a stereo micing arrangement where the camera was and then recorded two explosions a couple of seconds apart high up on the tower, the acoustic path between the blasts and the mics wouldn't change significantly between explosions. If local reflections produce an impression of space on the second explosion, they would do exactly the same for the first. For the two to take place in what are audibly different acoustic environments is just plain wrong and suggests the use of canned effects which weren't chosen carefully.

There's another thing. The "explosions" reverberate. While the recording didn't take place in a perfectly free field, outdoors comes fairly close. I would expect large buildings nearby to produce discrete echoes, and reflections from one's immediate surroundings to be audible, but the kind of crashing, several-second-decay-time, gymnasium-like reverberation I hear on the "explosions" is just absurd.

Phony as a Mexican shilling.

Of course, these are neither measurements nor calculations, nor have I got any degrees to wave. They're just the observations of an old sound man; take 'em for whatever you think they're worth.

[sleahead]

I've just been looking through the list of speakers at the Chicago "Truth" Conference. The usual suspects are there, but among the others this one stands out as a real winner:


Joyce Lynn

Journalist, Dream Guidance Teacher

Joyce's paradigm for social change: Information, Intuition, Imagination, synthesized from her experience, research, and inner guidance. She was a political reporter in Washington, D.C. for eight years. Shortly after moving to the San Francisco Bay Area, she remembered her first dream, which gave the ending for a screenplay she was writing. Later, her dreams and those of others imparted insights into the stolen 2000 presidential election and then tips that 9/11 was an inside job. As a result, dreams have guided her reporting about health, self-expression, and politics. She gave presentations on the 9/11 Cover-up Commission at the San Francisco and Toronto Citizen's Inquiries. Joyce offers tutorials and classes on using dream wisdom for social change.

I wonder if any of the Loosers will be signing up for her $200 online course?

[Gravy]

...tight slope above threshold, fast attack and relatively slow release times- when confronted by the pressure waves from explosions.
ktesibios, have you been reading my secret diary? :blush:

That's a helluvanalysis. I'm very impressed, even if I don't understand most of it. Every day I feel privileged to almost know people on this forum.

[Belz...]

ktesibios, have you been reading my secret diary? :blush:

That's a helluvanalysis. I'm very impressed, even if I don't understand most of it. Every day I feel privileged to almost know people on this forum.

We love you too, Gravy.

[WildCat]

I've just been looking through the list of speakers at the Chicago "Truth" Conference. The usual suspects are there, but among the others this one stands out as a real winner:




I wonder if any of the Loosers will be signing up for her $200 online course?
The whole conference is full of nutjob "experts" like her. Oh how I wish they would have done a public demonstration downtown, rather than at a hotel in Rosemont (which is a town next to O'Hare Airport) so I could confront their nonsense in person. Then again, there won't be any chance of the general public noticing them out there so that is a good thing.

[Gravy]

Photos from the Nutjob City Limits here http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5505&view=findpost&p=5016163

See the troof in action!

Or, in Dylan Avery's case, see actionable "truth."

[60hzxtl]

They're just the observations of an old sound man; take 'em for whatever you think they're worth.

Then I guess you understand what 60hz-Xtl is, I asked, as I picked up my Schoepps and went to work for the day. . .

[WildCat]

Photos from the Nutjob City Limits here http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5505&view=findpost&p=5016163

See the troof in action!

Or, in Dylan Avery's case, see actionable "truth."
Huh, they did have a little (and I mean little!) march downtown at the Daley Center. Doesn't appear many people noticed though! Maybe they don't realize most people are at their jobs on a friday afternoon. The local news didn't mention them at all, obviously they're part of the cover-up.

It also seems there were about as many speakers as attendees at the TRUTH conference. :p

[WildCat]

Then I guess you understand what 60hz-Xtl is, I asked, as I picked up my Schoepps and went to work for the day. . .
Oooh, Schoeps, now that's a fancy mic!

[60hzxtl]

Huh, they did have a little (and I mean little!) march downtown at the Daley Center. Doesn't appear many people noticed though! Maybe they don't realize most people are at their jobs on a friday afternoon. The local news didn't mention them at all, obviously they're part of the cover-up.

It also seems there were about as many speakers as attendees at the TRUTH conference. :p


I'll still spring for a ream of brown paper bags for the next NY demonstration, and pop one every few mintutes, and announce : "Sounds like an explosion to me!"


Ooops where'd that extra "p' come from in my Schoeps! Last thing I want is popping p's

[WildCat]

Ooops where'd that extra "p' come from in my Schoeps! Last thing I want is popping p's
Those aren't pops, it's explosions from the squibs going off!

[Gravy]

If you're feeling low today and need a little pick-me-up, I highly recommend going to this site (http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml), scrolling down to the May 17 interview with Dylan Avery, and listening for the first 6 minutes, if you can make it that far.

The site is "Beyond the Ordinary," the webcast branch of of J.Z. Knight's woo empire. Knight makes her living "channeling" the 35,000 year-old Atlantean warrior "Ramtha." She also produced the wooflick of a couple of years ago, "What the Bleep Do We Know?" J.Z. and Ramtha do not participate in the show, but the interplay between the superwoo interviewer and the supercrank Avery is magical in its own right.

"Beyond the Ordinary" featured interviews with "Loose Change" creators on three consecutive weeks. Prior to the first show, I had a lengthy email exchange with the show's producer in which I laid out the many reasons that "Loose Change" was not compatible with the "enlightenment" ideals of the J.Z. Knight enterprise.

She should have listened to me.

p.s. "Kleiner's Korner" is a newsletter associated with the above site. It promoted "LC," then people started listening to the interviews, then the Naudet action happened, then this:
Kleiner's Korner For Week of June 5, 2006
Obviously, the swirl surrounding Loose Change garnered a lot of mail and Kleiner’s Korner “unsubscribes” this week.

[juryjone]

If you're feeling low today and need a little pick-me-up, I highly recommend going to this site (http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml), scrolling down to the May 17 interview with Dylan Avery, and listening for the first 6 minutes, if you can make it that far.

Well, I managed to get through six minutes of this sycophantic garbage before encoutering the quote that certainly "picked me up" enough to hit the stop button and try to calm my roiling stomach.

Dylan: I'm not doing anything extraordinary, I'm just doing my job as an American.

Interviewer: Well, that's what all great geniuses say.

All bow down to the genius that is DYLAN AVERY!!! :eek:

[Gravy]

...No one calls him a genius here:

Excerpts from Wing TV May 30 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5202&view=findpost&p=4898237): Naudet Brothers action vs. Dylan Avery. Victor Thorn & Lisa Giuliani, presenters.
V: Here is where Dylan Avery made his first mistake. In various interviews that we've heard, he's bragging about how many copies of "Loose Change" they've sold. And a number that's bandied about is approximately 50,000 copies. Now, he's selling them on his site for $17, there's other sites like Dave von Kleist that are selling them for $20. So if we say 17 bucks a pop, and he's sold 50,000 copies, that's up above $800,000 in revenue. Now, if they put the same footage out and they sold 25 copies, the Naudet Brothers and Paramount Studios wouldn't be suing them. But Dylan had to brag about how many he was selling, and all of a sudden this was on the cover of USA Today, the front page, maybe a month ago, and the Naudet Brothers are saying, 'Wait a minute, they're generating close to a million bucks'...

[About the LC forum members]

V: These kids are so naive, that Lisa was calling them the "diaper babies," and I think that's a perfect word, because here they are [the Naudets and Paramount], already pissed off that their footage is being used without being reimbursed at all, so we're gonna get a bunch of diaper babies to incite 'em more and start swearing at 'em, being all hot-headed. It's unbelievable.

L: And then Phil Jayhan, "Commander Pod," had to relate an idea from his so-called friend that the Naudet brothers don't even really exist. (Sarcastically) I think they exist.

V: Yeah, so here we go, this is kinda like the 'no-planers' who say that no planes hit the towers, it's just a hologram...

L: You know why they say that? Because no one's seen anything of them [the Naudets] since the footage came out."

V: Yeah, so it's like bluescreen technology or whatever, so the Naudet brothers don't even exist, they're just a hologram.

L: There was one person on Dylan's forum who was making valid points. A person who has worked in television and was trying to explain to everyone in the forum that you need proper releases from every person you're going to use on the footage. TV stations have gotten into all kinds of legal issues, even over people who signed the release, taking them to court. And he was trying to explain how that whole system works, and nobody would listen to him, and Dylan was actually present on that thread exchange, and I was sitting there watching it, and they banned the guy. They banned the guy for making valid points.

V: Yeah, now this is the Truth Movement. This is a movement that advocates, supposedly, freedom of speech. You know how many of these little chat rooms ban people when they say something that they don't agree with? Here was a guy who was saying, 'Look, I'm in TV. I'm not a little diaper baby like you 20-year-olds.'

L: We urge Dylan to stop listening to these people around you–

V: –These diaper babies that are 20-year-olds that don't know a damn thing about anything in the world.

edited for bolding

[realitybites]

Ok, I'm two and a half minutes into this interview and to be honest, I get the impression Avery is more bored with it than I am. Granted he's being asked questions at a staggering one word per minute rate, but for someone who's supposedly so avid about the "truth" he's spreading, one would think he could muster a little more than a "mhm" in response.

[Johnny Pixels]

Can I just check something here? In this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8564772103237441151&q=wtc+collapse)

I make the start of collapse to occur at 16 seconds in, and then 9 seconds later, at 25 seconds in, you can still see part of the tower (it's easier to see at 24 seconds in just before the dust gets in the way) ie, the tower takes over 9 seconds to fall. I'm posing it as a question to the CTs on Loose change as to whether they measured the time themselves, or just took Loose Change's word for it.

Can anyone argue that my timing on the collapse is wrong?

[realitybites]

Johnny, my issue isn't with your timing, it's with the fact that apparently we now live in a world where controlled demlotion charges actually suck the structure inward. I'm sure people have posted on this before, but if you pause it at the 00:16 second mark, it's clear as day that the perimeter columns bend in towards the core.

[Johnny Pixels]

Johnny, my issue isn't with your timing, it's with the fact that apparently we now live in a world where controlled demlotion charges actually suck the structure inward. I'm sure people have posted on this before, but if you pause it at the 00:16 second mark, it's clear as day that the perimeter columns bend in towards the core.

Yeah I originally used that video in another argument about structural collapse, but I figured I'd go for a much simpler one about timing instead, because it was something I could show and it's hard to argue with.

Unless of course the charges were outside the building! Jinkies! I think I'm onto something...

[Walk The Line]

...No one calls him a genius here:

Excerpts from Wing TV May 30 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5202&view=findpost&p=4898237): Naudet Brothers action vs. Dylan Avery. Victor Thorn & Lisa Giuliani, presenters.


I would think that an "alternate" media source that takes the subject of copyright infringement very seriously would be a wake-up call to the Loosers Changers, but somehow I suspect that this will be branded as disinformation.

[MarkyX]

Can't really post links yet, but I've updated my video home page with many more sources, including HowStuffWorks on demolitions, an article on the WTC collapse by a structual engineer, plus much more.

[realitybites]

Apparently you're not aware of the new hovering stealth explosive technology that's been recently developed by the military.

They work just like you'd imagine - they hover, invisible, around the perimiter of structures they wish to bring down for the sole purpose of giving people with an IQ in the teens something to talk about.

[dubfan]

Yeah I originally used that video in another argument about structural collapse, but I figured I'd go for a much simpler one about timing instead, because it was something I could show and it's hard to argue with.

Unless of course the charges were outside the building! Jinkies! I think I'm onto something...

I think Dr. Greening owns the timing-of-the-collapse question, at least from the literature I've read so far. You can find his work at Mike Williams' site, www.911myths.com: http://911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html. He's looked at the issue form both theoretical and empirical angles, and I think his arguments are persuasive.

[RandFan]

Can't really post links yet, but I've updated my video home page with many more sources, including HowStuffWorks on demolitions, an article on the WTC collapse by a structual engineer, plus much more. Send it to me in a PM and I'll post it.

[Belz...]

Dylan: I'm not doing anything extraordinary, I'm just doing my job as an American.

Interviewer: Well, that's what all great geniuses say.


Wow! All yo have to do to be a genius is to do your job as an American! Or is it the other way around ? The job of every American is to be a genius ??

I'm confused...

[ktesibios]

Then I guess you understand what 60hz-Xtl is, I asked, as I picked up my Schoepps and went to work for the day. . .

Pilot tone! AAAIIIIIEEEEE!!! (runs screaming to find a crucifix and some garlic)

My background is in studio recording and sound reinforcement, but I've done enough VAPP work to have a finely-tuned appreciation of the joys of syncing sound to picture. How else could I have become the pathetic broken shell you see before you?

Turning back to the supposed "demolition" videos, it turns out that what you need to play the video from the mediumrecords site with audio is an AC3 decoder. I found one here:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ac3filter/ac3filter_0_70b.exe?download

which allows my Windows Media Player to play the video with sound.

The video from mediumrecords and the video from terrorize.dk, which he references as a source, seem to be identical. The files are exactly the same size and they look and sound the same.

This implies that the cat at mediumrecords is naively using hi-tech toys to "analyze" something that he doesn't know is pure hokum. If he had taken a few minutes to Google around for other sources- or had used his ears instead of his disordered mind- he could have avoided wasting his time on a hoax.

One thing i'll say about the original hoaxter, whoever it might be- he might not have a clue about what he was trying to fake, but he's closing in on the '80s snare sound. That'll come in handy if hair bands ever come back.

[Polaris]

I would think that an "alternate" media source that takes the subject of copyright infringement very seriously would be a wake-up call to the Loosers Changers, but somehow I suspect that this will be branded as disinformation.

Did Wingnut TV get permission from Buffalo Springfield to use "For What It's Worth"? And isn't that New World Order logo from the WWE? (Or is it WCW?)

[Pardalis]

Can I just check something here? In this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8564772103237441151&q=wtc+collapse)


Yet we hear no explosions in this video either.

[Pardalis]

Photos from the Nutjob City Limits here http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5505&view=findpost&p=5016163

See the troof in action!

Or, in Dylan Avery's case, see actionable "truth."

These look like a happy bunch enjoying themselves like in a garden party, considering the gravity of what they are saying.:mad:

They don't look like people worried about their government being mass murderers on their own people.

[SBrown]

Is Sibel Edmonds a fraud? Does anyone have any information to discredit her as having inside knowledge? Do you think she may be doing this for publicity? Do you think she may be a double agent?

I think she must be discredited completely because this looks very bad to have someone risk jail and a career to perpetuate a hoax. So she must be working for some other government then. She is from Turkey right? Maybe she is a plant that made it high in government work? I have heard of the old Soviets doing this back in the height of the cold war. How could we find out who she is really working for?

[RandFan]

Is Sibel Edmonds a fraud? Does anyone have any information to discredit her as having inside knowledge? Do you think she may be doing this for publicity? Do you think she may be a double agent?

I think she must be discredited completely because this looks very bad to have someone risk jail and a career to perpetuate a hoax. So she must be working for some other government then. She is from Turkey right? Maybe she is a plant that made it high in government work? I have heard of the old Soviets doing this back in the height of the cold war. How could we find out who she is really working for? Assuming that Sibel Edmond's is telling the truth (I have no reason to believe that she isn't) what do you think her allegations prove?

[Pardalis]

Is Sibel Edmonds a fraud? Does anyone have any information to discredit her as having inside knowledge? Do you think she may be doing this for publicity? Do you think she may be a double agent?

I think she must be discredited completely because this looks very bad to have someone risk jail and a career to perpetuate a hoax. So she must be working for some other government then. She is from Turkey right? Maybe she is a plant that made it high in government work? I have heard of the old Soviets doing this back in the height of the cold war. How could we find out who she is really working for?

What are you talking about? Who said she was a fraud?

ETA: And what does it have to do with Loose Change?

[SBrown]

What are you talking about? Who said she was a fraud?

Did you read the first line in my post.......at all?

[Pardalis]

Did you read the first line in my post.......at all?

Did you read the last one in mine?

"What does it have to do with Loose Change?"

[RandFan]

Did you read the first line in my post.......at all?Could you please answer my question?

Assuming that Sibel Edmond's is telling the truth (I have no reason to believe that she isn't) what do you think her allegations prove?

[SBrown]

Did you read the last one in mine?

"What does it have to do with Loose Change?"

No I didn't because you added it after I replied, so how in the name of hell was I suppose to read it?:confused:

[RandFan]

Hello? SBrown? Hello? Are you there?

[SBrown]

Could you please answer my question?

It shows prior knowledge by the FBI and shows signs of a cover-up.

edit***


Hello? SBrown? Hello? Are you there?


Are you always this impatient?

[Pardalis]

No I didn't because you added it after I replied, so how in the name of hell was I suppose to read it?:confused:

Right, sorry. Why are you bringing this up anyway?

[RandFan]

It shows prior knowledge by the FBI and shows signs of a cover-up. Shows prior knowledge of what? Cover up of what?

Could you demonstrate this?

[SBrown]

Shows prior knowledge of what? Cover up of what?

Could you demonstrate this?

Here is the link I was given
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/18828res20050126.html
Since I have been warned not to quote articles.

They seem to be trying real hard not to let her story come out.

oh well I guess I am still not allowed to post links.....nor quote without sourcing.......

[RandFan]

Here is the link I was given

Since I have been warned not to quote articles.

They seem to be trying real hard not to let her story come out.I googled and found the link from the start. http://www.justacitizen.com/ I have already read the link.

Look, what the hell do YOU think was covered up? Come on, this is a skeptics forum. We don't do wink wink nudge nudge. Come out and say directly what you think this means. I've read the website and I don't find anything significant that would cause me to think that it has any relevance to this thread.

[Pardalis]

Here is the link I was given

Since I have been warned not to quote articles.

They seem to be trying real hard not to let her story come out.

oh well I guess I am still not allowed to post links.....nor quote without sourcing.......

You can quote articles. But not in their entirety and you have to post a link to it. That's all.

Excuse me if I was surprised at your post, it just seemed to have come out of the blue. Please specify what you want to add to the conversation with Sibel Edmonds' case and we'll gladly talk about it.

[SBrown]

You can quote articles. But not in their entirety and you have to post a link to it. That's all.

Excuse me if I was surprised at your post, it just seemed to have come out of the blue. Please specify what you want to add to the conversation with Sibel Edmonds' case and we'll gladly talk about it.

I couldn't provide links before. I think while editing I messed that one up.

I am trying to get help on debating I have been doing on a different forum. I have come here a few times asking questions and get nothing but a run around. I understand it is not your job to answer, nor is this just a general 911 thread, but it seems to get a lot of traffic.

[RandFan]

SBrown,

I'm sorry if I'm brusk with you. It's just that I hope that those who post here would make an attempt to understand what it is that they are posting and why.

Are you the same poster as sylvia brown?

[RandFan]

I couldn't provide links before. I think while editing I messed that one up.

I am trying to get help on debating I have been doing on a different forum. I have come here a few times asking questions and get nothing but a run around. I understand it is not your job to answer, nor is this just a general 911 thread, but it seems to get a lot of traffic. Hey, we are here to help. Tell us what you think Sibel Edmonds proves or indicates or what relevance you think she has to 9/11 and we will help you out. Hell, I'll make an argument for you but I can't help if I have no idea what it is supposed to mean.

[Pardalis]

I am trying to get help on debating I have been doing on a different forum. I have come here a few times asking questions and get nothing but a run around. I understand it is not your job to answer, nor is this just a general 911 thread, but it seems to get a lot of traffic.

Understood. You have to understand that posting a question unrelated to the topic and leaving it out in the open without commenting on it is confusing.

[Gravy]

I couldn't provide links before. I think while editing I messed that one up.

I am trying to get help on debating I have been doing on a different forum. I have come here a few times asking questions and get nothing but a run around. I understand it is not your job to answer, nor is this just a general 911 thread, but it seems to get a lot of traffic.
Please point out where you got "nothing but a run around."

... Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath.

[Pardalis]

While we wait for SBrown's response, I found this only post of this thread that mentions Edmonds:

This gets to the larger context that the CTs are operating within -- i.e., LC is SO BAD that some 9/11 CTs think it is disinformation. There are other 9/11 CTs that are marginally more reality-based (the LIHOP proponents) and make a bigger deal out of both Able Danger and Sibel Edmonds.

Correct me if I'm wrong Dubfan, but you weren't accusing Edmonds of being a fraud, but mearely indicating that these are the things the more rational CTs are focusing on.

[Gravy]

I made a post about Sibel Edmonds a while back: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1612096&postcount=2298

[Pardalis]

Why did she leave? Is this "post and run"?

[RandFan]

I made a post about Sibel Edmonds a while back: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1612096&postcount=2298

Thanks Gravy. I agree with your analysis. It would seem the problems that were there then are still there btw.

[Pardalis]

Is this "post and run"?

It resembles geggy's "post a link and run" routine.

[Pardalis]

Wich reminds me, why aren't there more LC enthousiasts coming here? If they are 100% sure of what they are saying (wich is much more certainty than I will ever have about anything), what are they afraid of?

[Gravy]

Wich reminds me, why aren't there more LC enthousiasts coming here? If they are 100% sure of what they are saying (wich is much more certainty than I will ever have about anything), what are they afraid of?
They are afraid of the troof.

The ninja masks probably aren't helping either.

ETA: and they must find our smilies disappointing.

[MarkyX]

Send it to me in a PM and I'll post it.

Sent

[RandFan]

The following are links from MarkyX. I assume the "X" stands for Mark. :)

http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/ - My SCL homepage

http://www.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion.htm - How stuff works, building implosion

http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/clifton.pdf - PDF article by a structual engineer.

Good links BTW. Thanks.

[RandFan]

MarkyX, what is the relationship between you and gravy? Did you get your information directly from him or him from you?

ETA: Never mind. I see that you have a link in your blog to Gravy's page. Cool.

[sat556]

The ninja masks probably aren't helping either.


Actually I'm finding all that quite sexy.

:D

ETA. MarkyX. Fantastic job. The films made me very upset, made me laugh at how silly the CTers are, yet mad at the same time. Unlike LC, which just made me want to vomit.

[Kent1]

Ha! What a moron that guy is. My first reaction was, "jeez, wouldn't it be nice to have someone to debate who is smart enough to know that the north tower "spire" isn't part of the core? (Jeff King thinks it is part of the core.) That's Christophera country."

On the home page (http://plaguepuppy.net/) of his website, he both touts that incredibly piece of moonbat paranoia by Richard Allen Grove, and shows that he (King) agrees with Grove that the WTC began construction in 1971. Liike Dylan Avery, he's been "researching" this stuff for years. Ugh.

He also apparently big on the idea that the U.S. government controls the weather.

The problem with debating these people is that anyone dumb enough to debate us isn't going to be able to last in the debate, and people who it would be fun to debate (Steven E. Jones, David Ray Griffin et al.) are smart enough that they would never agree to a debate.

edited: spelling

It gets better

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5527

[RandFan]

Following one of MarkyX's links we find the following

Ask The Pilot
If you haven't been paying attention, cyberspace is awash with claims that the 2001 attacks were an inside job. The specific assertions are too numerous and complicated to list here exhaustively. They vary site to site, overlapping, underscoring, complementing and contradicting one another to the point of madness.
This is such a great paragraph. This was exactly my thoughts. That anything and everything that even remotely seemed to prove conspiracy was thrown into the mix. The "truth movement" is making no efforts, as far as I can tell, to create any coherent hypothesis. "We're only asking questions". Yeah? Well get back to me when you've got something more than questions.

[MarkyX]

MarkyX, what is the relationship between you and gravy? Did you get your information directly from him or him from you?

ETA: Never mind. I see that you have a link in your blog to Gravy's page. Cool.

Yeah, I tried asking him permission about it but never got a reply :P

I feel really bad though because some people are thinking it's my work when it isn't, and I pointed them to the proper places when they did via email. I just wanted to act now because they made that final cut announcement, and since it's only a few months away from Sept 11, something needed to be done.

I only made this video not only to discredit loose change, but to get the ball rolling on perhaps other projects made by the people who are sick of this constant anal rape of the 9/11 victims.

[MarkyX]

Actually I'm finding all that quite sexy.

:D

ETA. MarkyX. Fantastic job. The films made me very upset, made me laugh at how silly the CTers are, yet mad at the same time. Unlike LC, which just made me want to vomit.

I'm the next version of Karl Rove, as AllahPundit puts it :)

[Belz...]

These look like a happy bunch enjoying themselves like in a garden party, considering the gravity of what they are saying.:mad:

They don't look like people worried about their government being mass murderers on their own people.

Are smileys a disease or something ? People over at Loose Change seem to have contracted it.

[Belz...]

It resembles geggy's "post a link and run" routine.

Or Kilik's "post a hundred links and run" routine.

[Belz...]

Plaguepuppy at Loose Change has this to say:

Yes, I know that's quite a jump. It implies that the NWO scenario currently unfolding has been laid out in great detail over a long period of time, something that makes the world seem rather a scary place. Given a choice I would much rather not believe this, and would like to imagine that the 9-11 plot was just cooked up by some "bad apples" within the intelligence agencies and military. But this degree of advanced planning would require the entire "ruling class" here in the US, or at least its controlling elements, would have to have been on board with the conspiracy for a very long time. Not an especially comforting thing to contemplate, but if it's true it would be very important to know.

Yes. I'm sure the "NWO" has been planning the invasion of Iraq since the sixties. Why ? Hey!! I'm just asking questions...

No wait, I'm not...

[dubfan]

While we wait for SBrown's response, I found this only post of this thread that mentions Edmonds:



Correct me if I'm wrong Dubfan, but you weren't accusing Edmonds of being a fraud, but mearely indicating that these are the things the more rational CTs are focusing on.

Yes, that's right.

[delphi_ote]

Just a reminder who SBrown is:
Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?
So you say James Randi does not feel the need to touch this subject. I am awaiting his reply from my email from him.

It seems as though 911 CT's are starting to gain momentum. You guys seem very in tune to counteracting these theories. I look around and see this thread has 119 pages about the loose change group, yet no other threads that I see counteracting any other 911 CT group. Is this because the loose change group is the biggest/strongest or most threatening? Or is this because they are the weakest and easiest targets?

My last question is there does not seem to be a lot of folks that are here disputing your claims. Is this a common belief within this form that there is no chance that 911 was not an inside job? Or are people not willing to challenge the stronger members of this forum?

Thank you.
Hi I ran across this and after reading through it found it an interesting piece. Just wondering what others thought of it, my math skills are a bit rusty.
edited for rule 4 violation

Consider this a warning. Further violations of the user agreement may result in suspension.

original text here. (http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/read/1064)
Along with the most recent posts, these are the only "questions" asked. SBrown has only posted in 9/11 threads (this one and another he/she created.)

Who's getting the run around? :rolleyes:

[dubfan]

Following one of MarkyX's links we find the following

This is such a great paragraph. This was exactly my thoughts. That anything and everything that even remotely seemed to prove conspiracy was thrown into the mix. The "truth movement" is making no efforts, as far as I can tell, to create any coherent hypothesis. "We're only asking questions". Yeah? Well get back to me when you've got something more than questions.

That guy is a gifted writer. He's been writing about aviation for Salon for years. I'm so glad he decided to address the 9/11 CTs. That piece is very typical for him.

[dubfan]

Is Sibel Edmonds a fraud? Does anyone have any information to discredit her as having inside knowledge? Do you think she may be doing this for publicity? Do you think she may be a double agent?

I think she must be discredited completely because this looks very bad to have someone risk jail and a career to perpetuate a hoax. So she must be working for some other government then. She is from Turkey right? Maybe she is a plant that made it high in government work? I have heard of the old Soviets doing this back in the height of the cold war. How could we find out who she is really working for?

The Sibel Edmonds case does not argue that 9/11 was an inside job. It argues that the FBI is riddled with incompetent middle managers, and that there is some funny business indeed going on in the FBI's translation unit of the Washington Field office.

At best (for a CT), the Edmonds material is an argument for the LIHOP scenario.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I don't think such a lawsuit would succeed, but I'm no lawyer. I'm sure someone might get lawyered up and have a go. I recall some lawsuits against rock stars, by persons claiming the lyrics made them do things, failed. Dylan also placed the handy disclaimer "Do your own research" on his website.

Perhaps we should take pity on Professor Jones. Do you have an email address? If so, send the instant remedy to Loose Change induced depression - a link to Gravy's Viewers Guide.

It was Judas Priest who were sued by the families of two boys who shot themselves after listening to thier records. The suit was dismissed from court and never saw trial. The issue at the center of the lawsuit was wether JP put subliminal pro-suicide messages into thier records (when interviewed on TV, JP members said if they were going to insert subliminal messages, they would say "Buy more of our records").

With Loose Change, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of subliminal messages. What they do have is a very clearly stated, ultra-depressing message based on claims the makers know to be false.

I'm just an armchair lawyer myself, so I can't be certain.

As for Jones, as I said in my first post here, he has made claims that are as irresponsible and dishonest as any of the 9-11 con artists. While it's not unethical for a scientist to come up with a theory that later turns out to be wrong, Jones's claims of being recieving threats and bribes from agents of the Department of Homeland Security are inexcusable.

I won't be feeling any pity for Jones when his lies blow up in his face. he's bringing it on himself. He lost the right to point at Alex Jones and Dylan Avery and claim they misled him when he started making up stories about the MIBs giong after him to artificially inflate his image among the other conspiradroids.

[Brainster]

Yeah, I tried asking him permission about it but never got a reply :P

I feel really bad though because some people are thinking it's my work when it isn't, and I pointed them to the proper places when they did via email. I just wanted to act now because they made that final cut announcement, and since it's only a few months away from Sept 11, something needed to be done.

I only made this video not only to discredit loose change, but to get the ball rolling on perhaps other projects made by the people who are sick of this constant anal rape of the 9/11 victims.

It was a great job, an amazing job. Let me remind people here that I don't think Gravy had his name on either the webpage, or the doc file so folks didn't know whom to credit. I've still got it as "a friend of the blog" in the top post on Screw Loose Change because when Gravy posted over there he used the name "Truth", so I wasn't sure it was the same person at first (of course, I am now).

There's an old saying that there's no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit. I'm sure that Markyx will give Gravy loads of credit on the Final Cut! ;)

[Polaris]

I couldn't provide links before. I think while editing I messed that one up.

I am trying to get help on debating I have been doing on a different forum. I have come here a few times asking questions and get nothing but a run around. I understand it is not your job to answer, nor is this just a general 911 thread, but it seems to get a lot of traffic.

This is a thread about the Loose Change video - specifically about debunking a dishonest slander "documentary" claiming that 9/11 was not the work of al-Qaida, and instead a super-secret government conspiracy to do...something.
The thread had to be split because it is now running 160 pages long.

And your avatar has you listed as "student" - so you can post links.

[Polaris]

Wich reminds me, why aren't there more LC enthousiasts coming here? If they are 100% sure of what they are saying (wich is much more certainty than I will ever have about anything), what are they afraid of?

That's the same question I ask religious fundamentalists who boycott books/movies/radio shows (or worse, threaten violence against the talent) because it contradicts their fragile world-views. How strong could their belief be if one person somewhere disagreeing could shatter everything? (Come to think of it, I just described the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God)

[Polaris]

Following one of MarkyX's links we find the following

This is such a great paragraph. This was exactly my thoughts. That anything and everything that even remotely seemed to prove conspiracy was thrown into the mix. The "truth movement" is making no efforts, as far as I can tell, to create any coherent hypothesis. "We're only asking questions". Yeah? Well get back to me when you've got something more than questions.

Asking questions is useless when answers aren't listened to.

[RandFan]

It was a great job, an amazing job. Let me remind people here that I don't think Gravy had his name on either the webpage, or the doc file so folks didn't know whom to credit. I've still got it as "a friend of the blog" in the top post on Screw Loose Change because when Gravy posted over there he used the name "Truth", so I wasn't sure it was the same person at first (of course, I am now).

There's an old saying that there's no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit. I'm sure that Markyx will give Gravy loads of credit on the Final Cut! ;) As one who started to compile similar information and make a blow by blow rebuttal and giving up since I simply didn't have the time the project needed I need to say that what Gravy did was an outstanding job. My hats off to him and he absolutely deserves credit for the work.

I do like the result's MarkyX's work and I'm glad it is out there.

[MarkyX]

It was a great job, an amazing job. Let me remind people here that I don't think Gravy had his name on either the webpage, or the doc file so folks didn't know whom to credit. I've still got it as "a friend of the blog" in the top post on Screw Loose Change because when Gravy posted over there he used the name "Truth", so I wasn't sure it was the same person at first (of course, I am now).

There's an old saying that there's no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit. I'm sure that Markyx will give Gravy loads of credit on the Final Cut! ;)

I decided to do something somewhat easier.

Simply pointed out on the home page that (This was my main source. Thank you Gravy for this)

Hopefully this is an acceptable approuch.

[Kage]

What exactly is the LIHOP conspiracy theory? I might have missed this being covered a while back on this thread. Thanks

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What exactly is the LIHOP conspiracy theory? I might have missed this being covered a while back on this thread. Thanks

Let It Happen On Purpose, a la the gov't knew about Pearl Harbor, Lusitania, 9/11 etc

[chipmunk stew]

Let It Happen On Purpose, a la the gov't knew about Pearl Harbor, Lusitania, 9/11 etcAs opposed to MIHOP--Made It Happen On Purpose. Controlled demolition, etc.

[delphi_ote]

As opposed to MIHOP--Made It Happen On Purpose. Controlled demolition, etc.
Also as opposed to IHOP -- The International House of Pancakes

Ninja vanish! :runaway

[Walk The Line]

Also as opposed to IHOP -- The International House of Pancakes

Ninja vanish! :runaway

Confound you, you line-stealing ninja!!!

[Kage]

OK, Thanks. I don't see why people wish to substitue evil for stupid (both are bad) but still makes slightly more sense than CD or holograms (people have no idea what those are).

New conspiracy theory: NDIFGJ (Ninjas Did It For Great Justice). It would explain why the conspiracy busters are all suspiciously ninjas...quickly checking behind me---few.

[MarkyX]

Added another link to my page.

This time, showing that the A-3 Skywarrior uses a Two Pratt & Whitney J57-P-10 turbojet engines (not the JT8D)

So much fun debunking Loose Change :p

[Ramooone]

remember to save that footage of the sander hicks interview on the lc3 preview, he's running for senate and im sure his opponent would love it.

[delphi_ote]

remember to save that footage of the sander hicks interview on the lc3 preview, he's running for senate and im sure his opponent would love it.
He's not running for senate. He only claimed to be a Green Party candidate for Senate. In fact, he lost the primary (which might have had something to do with the fact that he's totally bat **** insane.)

[JamesB]

Another telling quote from the Ramtha interview

I know there’s high school classes that are refusing to watch 9/11 videos, like 9/11, you know, supposed official documentaries, because their teachers try to play them and they’re like, “No, we’ve already seen Loose Change and we don’twant to watch this” I mean, someone told me that the other day, they heard that from a friend who was still in high school. I mean that’s unreal, I mean, groups of high school students, are like banding around my movie. It’s kinda cool.

OK, so how are you doing outside of the Hillary Duff set?

[Polaris]

He's not running for senate. He only claimed to be a Green Party candidate for Senate. In fact, he lost the primary (which might have had something to do with the fact that he's totally bat **** insane.)

It's bad when you're too wacko to win the primary!

[delphi_ote]

It's bad when you're too wacko to win the primary!
Yea. It's even worse when it's for the Green Party!

[CptColumbo]

Let me take this opportunity to thank all those who have posted on this and the previous thread. You have forced me to look more deeply into the events of 9/11, and have armed me with information I need if I ever encounter a CTist (although I have only encountered them on the internet, which may explain a lot). I have been flexing my investigative journalism muscles again, and started to visit the public library after a long absense. It's inspired me to work on other writing projects that I abandoned long ago (i.e. a screenplay about the presidency of John Tyler). I had lost some of my passion for history over the last few years, but now I feel that old spark again.

[JamesB]

John Tyler is behind 9/11? Just wait until Dylan Avery gets a hold of this!

[chipmunk stew]

Also as opposed to IHOP -- The International House of Pancakes

Ninja vanish! :runawayOtherwise known as the Pancake Theory.

Shadow Tricycle Kick! :bike:

[chipmunk stew]

It gets better

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5527 Oh my god! Jeff King (plaguepuppy) is seriously entertaining the ideas of Christophera (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57426)!!! This is too good to be true.

[aggle-rithm]

John Tyler is behind 9/11? Just wait until Dylan Avery gets a hold of this!

Forget it. If high school students don't know who he is, Dylan's not interested.

[Gravy]

If anyone is bored here, there's some fresh meat at AlterNet, due to an article that came out today: http://www.alternet.org/story/37046/?cID=131202#c131202

[sat556]

What is the CT explanation for the fact that the Pentagon didn't fall? It seems to me that since 'they' rigged the towers, why not that too? I'd have thought that one would have been a smaller demo job that just one of the towers. Maybe I can't get a sense of scale from the photos though.
Wouldn't that have been easier to rig too? Being full of 'shills' and all?

I remember watching it that day and it wasn't the towers falling that had greatest impact on me, it was the sight of planes hitting them, especially the second one, when it became so apparent that this wasn't some horrific accident. This CT just makes so little sense it makes me wonder how stupid people really are.

[Hutch]

Well, I'm back in at LC for the moment, and found this wonderful bit of wooziness...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5568&st=0&#entry5050336

Be careful, this will kill brain cells...

[Kiwiwriter]

John Tyler is behind 9/11? Just wait until Dylan Avery gets a hold of this!

Absolutely. He had William Henry Harrison whacked so he could take over the presidency at the behest of the Illuminati. :D

[kookbreaker]

Well, I'm back in at LC for the moment, and found this wonderful bit of wooziness...


Did TheQuest get bopped on the nose for his random bannings or what?

[Kent1]

If anyone is bored here, there's some fresh meat at AlterNet, due to an article that came out today: http://www.alternet.org/story/37046/?cID=131202#c131202
What kind of sloppy reporting is this?

"In my research for this article, I went through several websites dedicated to debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, but was unable to find anything disputing the BBC story (and anyone who has contrary evidence is invited to send it to me or post a refutation in the comments section of this article)."


http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160-2,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/02/attack/main316806.shtml

[kookbreaker]

If anyone is bored here, there's some fresh meat at AlterNet, due to an article that came out today: http://www.alternet.org/story/37046/?cID=131202#c131202

Ugh. Its just too annoying to debate in the comments section of a blog. USENET wasn't even this clumsy.

[TjW]

It's really hard to follow the "logic".
They posit a conspiracy which is:
Willing to kill thousands of its own citizens indirectly through the destruction of the WTC.
Willing to kill hundreds of its own citizens directly (Flight 93 at least, all of the flights by some accounts) to keep the conspiracy secret.
Balks at killing 19 foreigners.
Is it just me, or does this seem a trifle inconsistent?

[JamesB]

It is just bizarre how they seem to think that history ended on September 23rd, 2001. Oh we can't look at anything that happened after that. If a BBC article 2 days after the attack said the hijackers were alive, that must be the end of the argument. It doesn't matter if the people in that article share nothing but the name. Everyone in the Arab world has a completely unique name.

[Kent1]

What kind of sloppy reporting is this?

"In my research for this article, I went through several websites dedicated to debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, but was unable to find anything disputing the BBC story (and anyone who has contrary evidence is invited to send it to me or post a refutation in the comments section of this article)."


http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,265160-2,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/02/attack/main316806.shtml

I e-mailed the author. He told me, "Thanks for the heads up".
Hopefully he will update his article.

OK, he wrote a follow up on his article and gave me some credit also. Cool!
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/37127/#more

[realitybites]

Well... Looks like the LCers finally found their whistle-blower....

Finally got the courage to post.

I have been working for the GOV for 20 plus years and know alot about the "TRUTH" but I need to provide for my family. I will not be able to post very often but will see what INFO I can provide.

LC only scrathed the surface!

Thermite my not be the answer, I'm currently working on a PET Fusion Scanner.

I have to go for now.

I do HOPE that govman POSTS again sometime in the "NEAR" future. I'm curious to know what the PET FUSION SCANNER is able to find.

[Manny]

I'm curious to know what the PET FUSION SCANNER is able to find.The CANCER (http://www.radiologyinfo.org/content/petomography.htm) in the system, maaaan.

[Pardalis]

It is just bizarre how they seem to think that history ended on September 23rd, 2001. Oh we can't look at anything that happened after that. If a BBC article 2 days after the attack said the hijackers were alive, that must be the end of the argument. It doesn't matter if the people in that article share nothing but the name. Everyone in the Arab world has a completely unique name.

If they are still alive, why in 5 years haven't they spoken out, made conferences, interviews? If I was wrongly accused of such acts, I wouldn't stay silent.

[CptColumbo]

Of course none of the things he reveals will be confirmable, since he/she is in fear of losing his/her job and will not give his/her credentials. How convenient.

[realitybites]

According to the boards over there, govman is the real deal. Government IP address and everything.

I think that...

.... oh ****...... ......I hear someone coming.

Can'tfinishthethoughtI'llpostmorelater....
(Ifyoudon'thearfrommeagainit'sbecausetheydisappear edme.)

[MarkyX]

I e-mailed the author. He told me, "Thanks for the heads up".
Hopefully he will update his article.

OK, he wrote a follow up on his article and gave me some credit also. Cool!


Ooh send him to my Screw Loose Change video. I don't know his email :)

[Pardalis]

Well... Looks like the LCers finally found their whistle-blower....

Finally got the courage to post.

I have been working for the GOV for 20 plus years and know alot about the "TRUTH" but I need to provide for my family. I will not be able to post very often but will see what INFO I can provide.

LC only scrathed the surface!

Thermite my not be the answer, I'm currently working on a PET Fusion Scanner.

I have to go for now.

I do HOPE that govman POSTS again sometime in the "NEAR" future. I'm curious to know what the PET FUSION SCANNER is able to find.


"working for the GOV" Maybe he's just a postman.

"Thermite my not be the answer, I'm currently working on a PET Fusion Scanner."
Maybe that part of his post has nothing to do with 9/11 conspiracies and he's really working on a PET Fusion Scanner at the time he wrote this. You know like:

"I think the government is corrupt, I'm eating a delicious ostrich egg." LOL

[Hellbound]

He could also be any member of the military, a clerk at the IRS, a janitor at a military facility, a cafeteria worker, or any number of other government jobs.

Heck, I work for the government part-time.

Anyone have his IP info?

[realitybites]

Must get.... to........ fifteen.....

[realitybites]

Anyone have his IP info?

Don't know if you can find it from this, but here's the thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=450) he was posting in over there.

[MarkyX]

Of course none of the things he reveals will be confirmable, since he/she is in fear of losing his/her job and will not give his/her credentials. How convenient.

Pretty much so.

[Kage]

The NYT has a story on a meeting of 911 conspiracy types in its NY region seciont (online at least).

nytimes[dot]com/2006/06/05/us/05conspiracy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The article is unfortunately generous in its description of the claims of these people, going as far as to call them scientists and skeptics. More insulting is the fact that this is in the NYT, the paper of record and the paper of New York. Though the article does not support what these people say as fact, a newspaper has a responsability to report critically on such bunk and nonsense. I want to write a letter to the editor on this one, but I don't know where to start.

[DavidJames]

I've been trying to find a decent rebuttal to "Crossing the Rubicon" by Ruppert.

Not surprisingly, a google search yields mostly CT related stuff.

Does anyone have any good links?

[aggle-rithm]

It is just bizarre how they seem to think that history ended on September 23rd, 2001. Oh we can't look at anything that happened after that. If a BBC article 2 days after the attack said the hijackers were alive, that must be the end of the argument. It doesn't matter if the people in that article share nothing but the name. Everyone in the Arab world has a completely unique name.

In fact, they're all named "Islam Jihad Dirka Dirka".

;)

[Hellbound]

Don't know if you can find it from this, but here's the thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=450) he was posting in over there.

Might be able to get some info, but I'd have to register over there.

I suppose it is time to test my l33t N1nj4 skills ;)

[Kiwiwriter]

He could also be any member of the military, a clerk at the IRS, a janitor at a military facility, a cafeteria worker, or any number of other government jobs.

Heck, I work for the government part-time.

Anyone have his IP info?

Hey, I work for the government of the City of Newark, NJ, write speeches for the mayor (which he sometimes even uses), and am on the Homeland Security and Emergency Operations Committees...so I'm right at the heart of the conspiracy!

And there's such a great bloody conspiracy, how come nobody told my wife and brother on 9/11? Kathy walks out of the subway station and sees everyone on 6th Avenue staring south at a fireball coming out of the World Trade Center. That's how she found out about it. And my brother heard the plane fly by, and saw it slam into the WTC from his office at the Seaport, and saw people jumping out the windows...oh, that's right, it was a hologram. So were the people, I guess. Maybe I'm a hologram! :boggled:

[aggle-rithm]

And my brother heard the plane fly by, and saw it slam into the WTC from his office at the Seaport, and saw people jumping out the windows...oh, that's right, it was a hologram. So were the people, I guess. Maybe I'm a hologram! :boggled:

Or maybe you're just programmed to THINK you're a hologram.

[Hellbound]

Maybe I'm a hologram! :boggled:

Is your name Lister? ;)

Yeah, they are way out there. I work for the federal government (military), and have a Secret level clearance. My father works for the state government (so does my mother, actually, being a teacher at a public school...or is that local?). So I must be ALL conspiracied up.

[Pardalis]

And there's such a great bloody conspiracy, how come nobody told my wife and brother on 9/11?

Wait a few months, your frontal lobe is still opening up.

[NobbyNobbs]

I've discovered something interesting. Sometimes, when you bring up a valid point to the CTers, they resort to insults. Sometimes they change the subject. Sometimes they deny your evidence.


And sometimes, the thread just....dies.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235

[Pardalis]

I've discovered something interesting. Sometimes, when you bring up a valid point to the CTers, they resort to insults. Sometimes they change the subject. Sometimes they deny your evidence.


And sometimes, the thread just....dies.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5207&st=0&#entry5015235

from "constitution" in the thread you posted:

common sense says to me that if faced with a million protestors in washington the army wouldnt fire.

Knowing the army tho they would just use it to perform a coup de tat

Coup de tat??? What is a "tat"?

[Hellbound]

from "constitution" in the thread you posted:



Coup de tat??? What is a "tat"?

That's when you cut the head off of a tatoo, duh.

:D

[Pardalis]

I keep rereading that last post by "constitution" and I really can't make heads or tails with it!

[azazal]

from "constitution" in the thread you posted:



Coup de tat??? What is a "tat"?


Well you've heard of "tit for tat", well where can I get some tat and trade it in?



(thank you Dennis Miller)

[chipmunk stew]

Some recent attempts:
http://911matrix.blogspot.com/
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14065
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14165

[MarkyX]

Some recent attempts:
http://911matrix.blogspot.com/
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14065
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14165

Wow that's pathetic.

I wouldn't mind debunking the first guy.

[CptColumbo]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060605100209990018&ncid=NWS00010000000001

They are on AOL again. Be sure to take the poll.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wow that's pathetic.

Why is it that the CTers default rebuttel is, "Nuh uh!"? I swear, their simple existence is the most damning evidence of the failure of the public education system in the US.

[CptColumbo]

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=563016&func=3&channel=News

The message board for the article is very telling of how sick people are of hearing from the CT crowd.

[juryjone]

Maybe I'm a hologram! :boggled:

We're ALL holograms!

Also, I think we're all bozos on this bus.

[kookbreaker]

Why is it that the CTers default rebuttel is, "Nuh uh!"? I swear, their simple existence is the most damning evidence of the failure of the public education system in the US.

Indeed. I got only so far before my eyes rolled completely back into their sockets. First they post shots of a fire at night. then compare it to a photos and films of fires shot during the day. Can you say 'invalid comparison'?

Then after Gravy's comment about 90%+ of the plane being recovered they reply with 'Is that of the quality of recovered plane at the Pentagon'. Classic begging the question. Let's attack a valid premise using an unsupported assumption.

I gave up looking after that. But they really are not very good at this.

[rwguinn]

We're ALL holograms!

Also, I think we're all bozos on this bus.

back from the shadows again....
Welcome to the "....Reservation and Cobalt testing Range"

What reservation was that?

[kookbreaker]

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=563016&func=3&channel=News

The message board for the article is very telling of how sick people are of hearing from the CT crowd.

Not surprising. We're coming up on the 5th anniversery of the event and people are starting to reminice about their experiences that day. Like knowing exactly where you were when you heard JFK was shot (In my case, not born yet). People tell the tales, and its not hard to find folks who were near or at the various ground zeros.

WHat is happening now is that when a thread or two of these things starts up its only a matter of a 1/2 dozen posts talking about before some 911 CT'er comes screaming in with a pile of stock links and cut n' paste screed saying how it was an inside job, yadda yadda. Rude in the extreme, and very disrespectful. Yet its happening more and more. The Flight93 movie board was shut down with screed and the CT'ers declared it a 'victory'. This is the shining example of all that the childish, tantrum-prone, selfish, paranoid, self-centered, egotistical, monomanical 911 CT'ers are.

Conspiracy theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.

[JamesB]

That argument always cracks me up. They are always quibbling over what percentage of wreckage and bodies were recovered from the crash site. Uhh... short of some other explanation of how it got there, wouldn't "any" percentage of wreckage and bodies prove the plane crashed there? You can't have it both ways, either the wreckage is there, or it isn't. Everything else is just details.

[kookbreaker]

Some recent attempts:
http://911matrix.blogspot.com/


From that:

LC2E: August, 1997. The cover of FEMA's "Emergency Response to Terrorism" depicts the World Trade Center in crosshairs.

The dude says nothing about this.


Say what?! I thought you specifically pointed out that the towers were bombed in 1993? Did you drop this in a later version or something?

[Manny]

That argument always cracks me up. They are always quibbling over what percentage of wreckage and bodies were recovered from the crash site. Uhh... short of some other explanation of how it got there, wouldn't "any" percentage of wreckage and bodies prove the plane crashed there? You can't have it both ways, either the wreckage is there, or it isn't. Everything else is just details.Ah, but you're missing the "middle ground." Specifically, not only did the US Government, in a conspiracy which would only take a few to carry out, launch a missile at the Pentagon and fly an unknown something into Shanksville, PA, it sent in operatives to -- get this -- sprinkle evidence around. But you're right that it's impractical to plant a whole plane as evidence (as opposed to the eminently practical other parts of the plot) so the government only planted some of a plane at each crash site.

Seriously. You'll often find these guys referring to remains of the aircraft as being sufficiently small to be carried by hand, as if that's what happened.

[chipmunk stew]

I wonder. Does anyone know:

Is the letsroll911.org forum just as intolerant of dissent as the LC forum?

Team JREF Ninja Wave! Go!

[Pardalis]

Well you've heard of "tit for tat", well where can I get some tat and trade it in?

(thank you Dennis Miller)

Ah... If I get this straight, what "constitution" meant was that because the Army would be cooporative (tit), therefore the protesters would use that to react the same way in payment (tat) for future cooperation from the Army. Hence, the "coup de tat" by the protesters, assuming they are the "they" in:

Knowing the army tho they would just use it to perform a coup de tat


I still don't get what this has to do with anything.

[kookbreaker]

That argument always cracks me up. They are always quibbling over what percentage of wreckage and bodies were recovered from the crash site. Uhh... short of some other explanation of how it got there, wouldn't "any" percentage of wreckage and bodies prove the plane crashed there? You can't have it both ways, either the wreckage is there, or it isn't. Everything else is just details.

Its also another case of: Do you understand the difference:

1) Plane hitting ground.

2) Plane slamming into reenforced concrete building.

If you don't, can I push you into the ground, and then slam you into a brick wall to explain the difference?

[JamesB]

If you want to see a Looser get quiet really quickly ask them about the light poles, which were supposedly "laid there like they were pulled out of the ground". I have repeatedly asked them if they were left by the light pole fairy, but I have yet to receive a response.

[Hellbound]

Might be able to get some info, but I'd have to register over there.

I suppose it is time to test my l33t N1nj4 skills ;)

Nope, no IP or email information is accessible. So I can't veirfy anything about exactly which government IP he is using.

And I refuse to do anything illegal to obtain the info. Just have to wait and see.

[Hellbound]

Its also another case of: Do you understand the difference:

1) Plane hitting ground.

2) Plane slamming into reenforced concrete building.

If you don't, can I push you into the ground, and then slam you into a brick wall to explain the difference?

Just to add to this, the latest analyses suggest that the left wing of the plane actually impacted with the ground just before or at the same time as the plane impacted the Pentagon. Pieces of the wing were found buried 2 feet into the ground.

[Orb]

Someone has asked for a skeptical analysis of this video. Anyone still have an account to reply? Looks like just a case of over-confidence to me, or taken out of context maybe? The CTer at the LC forum seems to imply that its proof that Bush rigged his election.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5609

[XXX]

Wow that's pathetic.

I wouldn't mind debunking the first guy.

Save some for me. I gotta get a piece of this.

[kookbreaker]

From that:


Say what?! I thought you specifically pointed out that the towers were bombed in 1993? Did you drop this in a later version or something?

Wait, further down he concedes the point:

Response: I can actually agree that the reason the DoD put the WTC in crosshairs is because it was attacked before. Strange that the dude didn't say anything about FEMA having the WTC in crosshairs.

WHAT IS THE FREAKING DIFFERENCE! BOTH ARE CONCERNING TERRORIST ATTACKS!!!

[Pardalis]

Someone has asked for a skeptical analysis of this video. Anyone still have an account to reply? Looks like just a case of over-confidence to me, or taken out of context maybe? The CTer at the LC forum seems to imply that its proof that Bush rigged his election.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5609

Is he saying "county" or "counting"?

[farrisjs]

"working for the GOV" Maybe he's just a postman.

"Thermite my not be the answer, I'm currently working on a PET Fusion Scanner."
Maybe that part of his post has nothing to do with 9/11 conspiracies and he's really working on a PET Fusion Scanner at the time he wrote this. You know like:

"I think the government is corrupt, I'm eating a delicious ostrich egg." LOL

Every thing I posted was true, I just wanted to see how they would take it.

I am a proud memeber of JREF and I work for the FED Gov.

[Shrinker]

Someone has asked for a skeptical analysis of this video. Anyone still have an account to reply? Looks like just a case of over-confidence to me, or taken out of context maybe? The CTer at the LC forum seems to imply that its proof that Bush rigged his election.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5609

Aha, the first rule of conspiracy: always be sure to tell the press exactly what you're up to. Even if they don't ask.

[Hellbound]

Every thing I posted was true, I just wanted to see how they would take it.

I am a proud memeber of JREF and I work for the FED Gov.

Ah, so that's you?

St. Louis, are you at HRC, by any chance?

By the way, if you need a straight man over there, I'm registered now. Although I can only get posted from a government system one weekend a month :). This coming weekend I'll be at drill, though.

[juryjone]

back from the shadows again....
Welcome to the "....Reservation and Cobalt testing Range"

What reservation was that?

That would be the "Stinking Water National Indian Reservation and Cobalt Testing Range".

Sorry for the derail. Back to the magical lightpoles and misunderstood crosshairs....

[kookbreaker]

Every thing I posted was true, I just wanted to see how they would take it.

I am a proud memeber of JREF and I work for the FED Gov.

You Magnificent B*stard! :D

[Orb]

Is he saying "county" or "counting"?


You know, it does sound a bit like county. Hard to tell from that short clip. At worst it just looks like he's being a bit cocky.

[Hutch]

Every thing I posted was true, I just wanted to see how they would take it.

I am a proud memeber of JREF and I work for the FED Gov.


Ah, so Gov = farrisjs?

And as for the PET Fusion, it is an actual device: http://www.fwradiology.com/pet.htm which increased my sum total of knowledge about the universe by abour 3/4 of a iota..;) :)

St. Louis and US GOV? Goodfellow Blvd.? (was in ATCOM)

[Pardalis]

Every thing I posted was true, I just wanted to see how they would take it.

I am a proud memeber of JREF and I work for the FED Gov.

Wow, you really got us going there! LOL

That last comment about the PET scanner came so much out of left field, I'm surprised none of the LC posters noticed it!

[Walk The Line]

The "debunking" of Gravy's debunking makes for good comedy:

The dude(Gravy): I have yet to come across a 9/11 conspiracy theorist who DID NOT use this quote as "evidence" that the terrorist attacks were an "inside job" by the neo-cons in the U.S. government. However, the PNAC quote is about the typically slow growth of military technology, abetted by budget cuts in defense R&D. It is in no way a plan or suggestion for a "new Pearl Harbor."

Response: PNAC saying that they needed a new pearl harbour is quite telling, and if it was what they needed, is it not possible that they made it happen? Or was it merely coincidence that the new pearl harbour arrived a few months later?

Currently the History Channel is running a serious of shows on "Mega-Disasters" that could happen here in the United States. Using CT logic, this means that should any of these Mega-Disaster's actually happen, the History Channel is obviously responsible. After all, if governments kill their own citizens, why shouldn't CT's believe that TV shows will kill their own viewers?

It's all perfectly reasonable to the CT.

[dubfan]

Some recent attempts:
http://911matrix.blogspot.com/
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14065
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14165

Prediction:

Several "debunkings" (and I use that term with all the derision I can muster with two ASCII quotation symbols) will soon appear that attempt to rebut Gravy's work. A common pattern will emerge: these "debunkings" will tend to ignore all of the factual content of Gravy's piece and will instead focus on his use of sarcasm, editorial comment, and lack of attribution in spots. They will conclude that Gravy is guilty of the same crimes that Loose Change is, therefore, his Viewer's Guide can be safely ignored.

[Pardalis]

You know, "the Dude" is really how I imagine Gravy to be like. ;) :D

[CptColumbo]

"The Dude abides."

[MarkyX]

Prediction:

Several "debunkings" (and I use that term with all the derision I can muster with two ASCII quotation symbols) will soon appear that attempt to rebut Gravy's work. A common pattern will emerge: these "debunkings" will tend to ignore all of the factual content of Gravy's piece and will instead focus on his use of sarcasm, editorial comment, and lack of attribution in spots. They will conclude that Gravy is guilty of the same crimes that Loose Change is, therefore, his Viewer's Guide can be safely ignored.

I think the good outweighs the bad here. I admit that I wished I never went with the whole 'sarcastic bastard' approuch and acted a little more professional, but even so, you cannot deny LC is full of crap.

The people who ignore this guide, my video, or other pieces of evidence have little interest in "truth seeking" or the concern of the families of 9/11, but instead rather take the lazy man's way out and simply protest the government. It's much easier to hold a sign and yell than do something useful in your life.

[joseph k.]

I've been trying to find a decent rebuttal to "Crossing the Rubicon" by Ruppert.

Not surprisingly, a google search yields mostly CT related stuff.

Does anyone have any good links?
I asked something similar in this thread and was pointed to:
http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/
and to David Corn.

[Hutch]

Somebody on the Skeptics Forum asked about the purpose of said Forum. And geez, I just had to go open my big mouth...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356

If The quest sees it, I'm gonna get banned again...

[Pardalis]

Somebody on the Skeptics Forum asked about the purpose of said Forum. And geez, I just had to go open my big mouth...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356

If The quest sees it, I'm gonna get banned again...

Can I nominate this post even if it's on another forum?

[juryjone]

I think the good outweighs the bad here. I admit that I wished I never went with the whole 'sarcastic bastard' approuch and acted a little more professional, but even so, you cannot deny LC is full of crap.

The people who ignore this guide, my video, or other pieces of evidence have little interest in "truth seeking" or the concern of the families of 9/11, but instead rather take the lazy man's way out and simply protest the government. It's much easier to hold a sign and yell than do something useful in your life.

Don't be too hard on yourself, thinking that you should have been more polite. After all, these people have been led astray by their "feelings" in the first place. They blatantly disregard the facts as well as the feelings of others. Couching the facts in pleasantries will not bring them to their collective senses. (Should that be plural in this case?)

Consider this thread. Gravy, delphi, Pardalis, kookbreaker and many others too numerous to mention have dealt with the loosers in a calm, collected manner for a long time after I had written them off in my own mind. Superhuman patience, in my opinion. Yet the response has never been to examine the evidence. It's evade and "ask questions". These people don't deserve a professional response. All they deserve is dismissal.

[Pardalis]

Somebody on the Skeptics Forum asked about the purpose of said Forum. And geez, I just had to go open my big mouth...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356

If The quest sees it, I'm gonna get banned again...

Say Hutch, could you post what you wrote here for everyone to enjoy? ;)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Somebody on the Skeptics Forum asked about the purpose of said Forum. And geez, I just had to go open my big mouth...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356

If The quest sees it, I'm gonna get banned again...

DJLegacy2k1 is a lying sack of bovine excrement. Please, have him point to a single post I made that used an insult/slander/etc. I was suspended w/o reason or explanation; and he has the gall to claim he stood up for people? :mad:

[Belz...]

Is your name Lister? ;)

That was Rimmer, Hunstman.

[Belz...]

Indeed. I got only so far before my eyes rolled completely back into their sockets. First they post shots of a fire at night. then compare it to a photos and films of fires shot during the day. Can you say 'invalid comparison'?

Then after Gravy's comment about 90%+ of the plane being recovered they reply with 'Is that of the quality of recovered plane at the Pentagon'. Classic begging the question. Let's attack a valid premise using an unsupported assumption.

I gave up looking after that. But they really are not very good at this.

What do you expect ? Considering how poor their judgment is already, is it any wonder their ability to debate is non-existent, even when they do it at their leisure in TEXT format and in their own time ?

[Belz...]

Team JREF Ninja Wave! Go!

...

[farrisjs]

Ah, so that's you?

St. Louis, are you at HRC, by any chance?

By the way, if you need a straight man over there, I'm registered now. Although I can only get posted from a government system one weekend a month :). This coming weekend I'll be at drill, though.

No I work for the VAMC as a computer specialist in medical imaging, ie Radiology, Nuclear Medicine....

I'm not sure what I want to do over I just thought I would do something and see how they reacted to the truth.

[Polaris]

Let me take this opportunity to thank all those who have posted on this and the previous thread. You have forced me to look more deeply into the events of 9/11, and have armed me with information I need if I ever encounter a CTist (although I have only encountered them on the internet, which may explain a lot). I have been flexing my investigative journalism muscles again, and started to visit the public library after a long absense. It's inspired me to work on other writing projects that I abandoned long ago (i.e. a screenplay about the presidency of John Tyler). I had lost some of my passion for history over the last few years, but now I feel that old spark again.

Good luck on the screenplay - if there's any way to throw in some explosions and CGI (but no nudity, God forbid!) and keep it PG-13 (maybe with Will Smith as Tyler), Universal might buy the rights.

[Polaris]

If they are still alive, why in 5 years haven't they spoken out, made conferences, interviews? If I was wrongly accused of such acts, I wouldn't stay silent.

They were all promised a free Frogurt.

Does anyone else get tired of hearing these idiots say "I draw the line at the MIHOP stuff, maaaaaan. I mean, there are lots of inconsistancies with the 9/11 Commission Report that are getting ignored 'cause of it, maaaaaaaaan."

WHAT inconsistancies?! It sounds like they want to believe Loose Change soooooooooooooo bad but they still have that last lingering thread of common sense and logic keeping them from crashing on the jagged rocks below. Every inconsistancy they blather about is just another CT fabrication, just in varying degrees of nuttiness.

[Polaris]

Is your name Lister? ;).

I think you mean Rimmer.

[realitybites]

Well I'm glad to see that the CTs Holy Trinity has their site back up and running after their little run-in with the Naudets.

Below is the promotion for LC2E that they have on the home page. Unfortunately for them, a friend of mine gave me the orignal unedited promo. (For some reason, all the stuff in bold was taken out.)

"Loose Change 2nd Edition" is the follow-up to the most hysterically contrived, utterly baseless, and provocative 9-11 documentary on the market today.

This film shows how easily 3 wannabe bigshots who never got enough love from daddy can imply a direct connection between the attacks of September 11, 2001 and the United States government.

Evidence is derived from editing and carefully selecting news footage, compiling scientific fact from the planet Xanthon, and most important, cherry picking the quotes of Americans who suffered through that tragic day. (Oh, and we also mock those who actually died too! Total effing laugh riot!!)

IT IS EVERYONE'S duty TO **** THEIR PANTS LAUGHING WHEN THEY VIEW THIS FILM!

In honor of those who died that day.

[Mr. Skinny]

Somebody on the Skeptics Forum asked about the purpose of said Forum. And geez, I just had to go open my big mouth...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356

If The quest sees it, I'm gonna get banned again...
Well, I hope henhouse from the LC forum wanders over here and evaluates the evidence himself/herself.

And to you Ninja Wave folks...I'm feeling left out, being a lowly government shill who's never posted at LC. I think I'm gonna join that Humor Revolution thingy, cause then I'll feel just a little more, ya know, special. Have you totally joined forces with them, or not? Cause I don't have time for the Humor thing if it doesn't get me closer to ninja wave status.

Is there a JREF government shill avatar?

[steve s]

I've discovered something interesting. Sometimes, when you bring up a valid point to the CTers, they resort to insults. Sometimes they change the subject. Sometimes they deny your evidence.


Exactly. In one thread over there I used a basic priniciple of physics to prove a point. I got a lot of responses which consisted of insults and namecalling, but not one person could refute the point I made. Yet they still think that they shot down my argument. Amazing, isn't it?


In keeping with the Ninja theme I've updated my avatar.
Lil' Ninja Spaceman Rules!!!!

Steve S

[JamesB]

That was great Hutch. They are lying through their teeth saying you only get banned for being disrupting. I got banned after posting just half a dozen times on a thread that was made in honor of my own blog for God's sake.

[RandFan]

DJLegacy2k1 is a lying sack of bovine excrement. Please, have him point to a single post I made that used an insult/slander/etc. I was suspended w/o reason or explanation; and he has the gall to claim he stood up for people? :mad:This pisses me off to no end. When I was there I had to put up with all sorts of BS, harassment, slander, and bad behavior. I never once acted badly and was even banned for awhile. Though to be honest I left there permanently on my own because I just couldn't stand that kind of crap.

[farrisjs]

Good job Hutch, the LC groupies have alot to learn about the "Truth".

[RandFan]

DJLegacy2k1

A skeptics Forum was made because, before JREF started coming here, "skeptics" handled things respectfully and like normal adults. Then we started seeing an influx of people that were name calling, spreading disinformation such as Gravy's article and Im doing a VERY extensive Debunk of. We all admit there are errors in Loose Change, Dylan is the first one to admit it...

Im for equal rights and freedoms of both skeptics and truthers, and you can ask anyone on this board about that. I was accually asked to leave because I was standing up for a VERY select few from the JREF boards so that they were NOT banned. If you can act maturely and like a normal adult, feel free to question and talk about the 9/11 issues anywhere on the board. But do not go into the research section telling people they are "wackjob tin hat wearers" and that the Commission Report is 100% truth, because if you have a 100% opinion of what exactly happened, you obviouslyarent here to RESEARCH or help people out, your just here to inturrupt others from doing their own truth searching.

Bottom line is, help everyone be productive...Or don't come here, basically.What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@

[JamesB]

We all admit there are errors in Loose Change, Dylan is the first one to admit it...

There are errors in Loose Change. That is like saying there is sand in the desert.

[delphi_ote]

What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@
I'm afraid his quote there needs a little editing to be true. Here's the revised version:

I'm not for equal rights or freedoms for skeptics, only truthers, and you can ask anyone on this board with any common sense about that. I was accually asked to leave because I was standing up for a VERY select few from the JREF boards so that they were NOT banned disagreeing with other mods. If you can act maturely and like a normal adult, feel free to question and talk about the 9/11 issues anywhere, but not on this board. Do not go into the research section telling people they are "wackjob tin hat wearers" totally mistaken about 9/11 and that the Commission Report is 100% truth has any facts in it at all, because if you have a 100% opinion of what exactly happened aren't one of the strawmen we've constructed, we obviously arent here to RESEARCH or help people out don't want to talk to you, your just here to inturrupt others from doing their own truth searching fantasy role playing.

It's really hard to fact check these guys!

[Hutch]

Say Hutch, could you post what you wrote here for everyone to enjoy? ;)

Pardalis (and everyone else), thank you for the kind comments. However, I cannot access Loose Change from home, and I suspect when I go into work tomorow that ISP will similiary be locked out.

Utterly humorless bunch....

I will admit that there will be some withdrawal symptoms, not being able to comment on the absolute loonieness (I had a couple of posts in mind for the Moon Hoax and "Nuclear bomb in WTC's that probably would have banished me anyway) but it was fun while it lasted.

And if they haven't closed my back door...heheheheheheheh..Rotary Aircraft Hellfire Ninja Attack!!!

[Pidge]

Say Hutch, could you post what you wrote here for everyone to enjoy? ;)

Does Hutch have to do it? Is it simply bad etiquette or contrary to JREF forum rules to post someone else's post from another forum?

Anyway, I'll stick my neck out since I seem to be able to get in to the LC forum. Please feel free to correct me if I'm in the wrong to do this.

Hutch's post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&st=0&#entry5060356)

Well, as I understand it (and I could well be wrong, I didn't join until after this Sub-Forum was established)....

It didn't exist at first because everybody here all agreed with each other and everything was sweetness and light--and then....

Some nasty JREF Ninja Wave skeptics showed up and began asking questions and posting evidence contradictory to the prevaling wisdom. A campaign was begun to debunk these folks, but finding them rather immune to the "Oh Yeah?" school of debunking, the Admin began banning the evil JREF Ninja's. In fact, our lead Sensei, Gravy, remains permanently banned from this Forum.

But that created a problem, because for a Forum dedicated to Truth with a capital "T", this intolerance and dismissal of dissenting opinion looked suspiciously like the same intolerance and dismissal the LC'ers were receiving from the Government and the Powers-that-be. And since this was intolerable, some wise LC'er came up with the idea of a Skeptics Forum.

I believe the intent was to contain us there. Problem is, it has often been the liviest place on the Forum because rather than just posting clips and others admiring them, people actually debate and discuss things here.

And while we are supposed to be limited, wily JREF Ninjas occassionally break quarantine and creep into other threads wielding our Ockham's Razor-Swords and our motto "Free Gravy" (especially on Biscuits).

At least-that's my story. Might not be 100% accurate like some of the LC claims I have seen made, but it's written better than most of them--IMHO of course.

Press on.


Oh, and a bonus:

I love the Amazing Randi. I would have thought the people from his forum would be really well-educated and well-spoken for the most part. If what you say is true, I\'m disappointed. I\'ll have to pay them a visit.

Come, henhouse, turn to the, um, oh damn, what was I going to say, Dark side, nononono, not right. Paisley? no. Light. Hmmm. Truth. Oppps, capital T. truth? hmm, not impressive. Oh well...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

There are errors in Loose Change. That is like saying there is sand in the desert.

This just in: Water still wet; film at 11! ;)

[Brainster]

I think the good outweighs the bad here. I admit that I wished I never went with the whole 'sarcastic bastard' approuch and acted a little more professional, but even so, you cannot deny LC is full of crap.

I've been torn on this over at Screw Loose Change, but my thought is that we have to fight fire with fire. Loose Change has caught attention because it aims to entertain and "educate", with the emphasis on the first part. Well, we've gotta do the same thing.

You can't feel sorry for the people who are involved in this movement. They're wrong, and they're dangerously wrong. You've gotta aim your efforts at the folks on the fence, and believe me, sarcasm backed up by facts works terrifically with them.

[Pardalis]

Does Hutch have to do it? Is it simply bad etiquette or contrary to JREF forum rules to post someone else's post from another forum?

Actually, I wanted Hutch to post it here so that I could nominate it. :D

[ktesibios]

Well, after some time spent using the facilities available to me at work to double-check my observations, I tried posting my analysis of the stereo imaging in the phony audio clip, which I consider the most damning evidence of fakery, in the comments page on the mediumrecords site- politely, I might add.

The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.

[Gravy]

.The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments
I think I found the problem: your analysis doesn't take into consideration the echoing inside his empty skull.

[Manny]

I've been torn on this over at Screw Loose Change, but my thought is that we have to fight fire with fire. Loose Change has caught attention because it aims to entertain and "educate", with the emphasis on the first part. Well, we've gotta do the same thing.

You can't feel sorry for the people who are involved in this movement. They're wrong, and they're dangerously wrong. You've gotta aim your efforts at the folks on the fence, and believe me, sarcasm backed up by facts works terrifically with them.Here's something I might spend some time on, though. Maybe pick each of the various CTs topics, including the ones not addressed by LC and create a debunking folder that can be pulled out for debates, message boards or whatever. "No, that's not a JT8D piece, it's an RB211; here's a picture." "Yes, Northwinds existed. But you have to realize that even the geniuses who came up with the Bay of Pigs rejected it as too wacky." "In fact. Coroner Miller said he recovered over 600 pounds of human remains," etc. Then let each arguer pick his/her own level of sarcasm. If it rains again this weekend I might get a start on it.

[60hzxtl]

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.

Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.

(At this point I pop a brown paper bag, and announce "Sounds like an explosion to me!")

Speaking of which, I love how all the explosives the CT'er refer to are allways "high powered" explosives.

[Gravy]

Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.
Great reply, 60hz. Worth viewing, folks http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

[Regnad Kcin]

[The JREF] is full of Commission Report lovers...Although the NIST report is admittedly a THEORY, these people hate Conspiracy Theorists...and many of them like to resort to name calling and causing problems on the board....

Some are ok and act like normal humans but that's hard to find.I love the Amazing Randi. I would have thought the people from his forum would be really well-educated and well-spoken for the most part. If what you say is true, I\'m disappointed. I\'ll have to pay them a visit.
Perhaps someone registered there should PM henhouse and issue an invite.

Oh, and who here is a "Commission Report lover?" Show of hands.

[dubfan]

What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@

Translation:

Disinformation = anything that upsets the CT applecart.

Somewhat paradoxically, in the CT universe, disinformation is a label that can be applied both to a fact and its contradiction. Thus we have the situation where any facts that support AA77 being flown into the Pentagon are considered disinformation by the Loosers, while the whole no-plane-hit-the-Pentagon theory itself is considered disinformation by others.

Hey, these guys are nothing if not incoherent.

[dubfan]

Here's something I might spend some time on, though. Maybe pick each of the various CTs topics, including the ones not addressed by LC and create a debunking folder that can be pulled out for debates, message boards or whatever. "No, that's not a JT8D piece, it's an RB211; here's a picture." "Yes, Northwinds existed. But you have to realize that even the geniuses who came up with the Bay of Pigs rejected it as too wacky." "In fact. Coroner Miller said he recovered over 600 pounds of human remains," etc. Then let each arguer pick his/her own level of sarcasm. If it rains again this weekend I might get a start on it.

I'm envisioning we could use that as a database to feed an Eliza-type program that would dialog with conspiracy theorists.

I think we could automate this entire debate.

[RandFan]

Oh, and who here is a "Commission Report lover?" Show of hands.And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foriegn policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foriegn policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war.

It's also willful ignorance in DJ's case, as (in my <2 week lifespan over there) I made it clear that in terms of scientific methodology that the NIST report would be considered the accepted theory (paradigm) and all others are alternate theories. Of course in angsty CTerland that means that all theories are equal. *mutter*

[RandFan]

And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foreign policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war. To be clear I have supported Bush and the war. I have been critical of his domestic response to 9/11. I think Katrina shattered any notion that we had made any significant progress in preparing to deal with a large scale attack. I'm also quite certain that a year after Katrina we have not made any sufficient progress.

Give me a Democrat that will fix these problems and I will vote for her (or him, I'm not particular).

Sorry for the derail. I won't do it again.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think Katrina shattered any notion that we had made any significant progress in preparing to deal with a large scale attack. I'm also quite certain that a year after Katrina we have not made any sufficient progress.

<Derail>
Popular Mechanics, in the spirit of thier 9-11 conspiracy debunking, came out with another debunking of Katrina myths.

Thier conclusions were that Katrina showed room for improvement but was not quite the massive goat rodeo that the media made it out to be.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html

</Derail>

Linking this back to Loose Change, the media tends to thrive on many of the same flaws in human thinking that Avery & Co. have with thier con job. Though the major media tends not to throw any bilge they come up with to the public with reckless abandon like the LC crowd, they are the ones who invented the mantra "if it bleeds, it leads".

[Ducky]

Well, after some time spent using the facilities available to me at work to double-check my observations, I tried posting my analysis of the stereo imaging in the phony audio clip, which I consider the most damning evidence of fakery, in the comments page on the mediumrecords site- politely, I might add.

The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.



You are absolutely correct, for sound to "change" then either the source changes, or the surrounding envorinment changes.

That said, sound does do funny things at times. Phase cancellation is a real and predictable (in controlled environments) event, however in the field, it is often very difficult to predict what your surroundings will do, therefore close mic techniques are used. Shotgun mics are very localized, to avoid just such problems with surrounding noise. Reverberation and reflection is very much predictable, given knowledge of room type, and size and shape etc. If you want a very real and easy to produce example of its predictability? Check out the digitally created reverbs in any recording software. ANY of them.

Sound real? Of course they do. Even free software developed quickly has convincing reverbs encoded. The reverbs in Cool Edit Pro 2 have just as much convincing reality as they do in Logic 7. They may not sound the same to each other (nor should they), but they still sound "real."

To produce that effect through programming means it HAS to be predictable, and it means that if we have the layout of the area in question, the types of materials the boundries and obsstructions are made of, and the decibel levels of the originating sound along with location of origination we can predict quite accurately.

However, I am interested to hear the answer as to why that source sound is stereo, when iirc that camera has one microphone.

If it was panned out to a stereo image for production purposes, then it shows that it certainly has been tampered with.


PS. Your analysis is dead on. When I asked if anyone sees something interesting when analyzing the sound, I was wondering if anyone would notice it is stereo, and the "echoes" have no direct attack, but are spread wide.


ETA:

It strikes me that if the source recording was rolled out to a stereo image in production, and it was lifted from a DVD like is claimed, then importing the source to a low end program like Cool Edit Pro would import it to a single, stereo track. If the person doing this thought they were clever by using a reverb effect to recreate the sustained repeated explosions, their echoes created by the reverb program would be repeated in a stereo image, not as the original source was in mono, thusly making the effect we have here. Single sound with clear attack and direction, with repeated echoes without direct attack to the sound, and coming from the spread of the stereo recording. This is a very specific trick used by recording engineers with bands for vocal echoes and effect. the echoes spread out give bigger presence to the single source vocal track on the recording. Listen closely to Floyd or Tool. Echoes like this have been a mainstay of rock ever since stereo recording became standard. This tool unintentionally created the effect that shows us this recording has had production done to it.

My guess is: He imported the audio not realizing it was folded out to stereo, and used a program that imports stereo sounds into one track as a stereo image. A very novice move at best. This is downright bungled.

ETA2:

If he *wanted* to make it sound authentic, then he should have taken the first sound as a mono image in another track, and create a mono echo. Then mix the track back into the stereo image leaving it panned center. That would have sounded more convincing. But I digress, now I'm just educating the frauds on how to do convincing fakes.

[Ducky]

Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.

(At this point I pop a brown paper bag, and announce "Sounds like an explosion to me!")

Speaking of which, I love how all the explosives the CT'er refer to are allways "high powered" explosives.



Good reply.

60hz, out of curiosity is there any way we can get our hands on the source recording to compare to the altered one?

[Pardalis]

BTW, this is a question for Mutton-Head and XRaye:

How's your research going?

[60hzxtl]

Good reply.

60hz, out of curiosity is there any way we can get our hands on the source recording to compare to the altered one?

Thank you.

Not to my knowledge - the tape "belongs" to Evan Fairbanks - a freelancer working for Trinity on 9/11. He grabbed Trinity's camera, with Trinity's tape, on Trinity's time, and went out to shoot what was going on. He informed the FBI that he had the footage. FBI marked it as evidence, then returned the tape, which Fairbanks marketed.

I would have thought that with all the things I included above, that the tape would belong to Trinity. Trinity's lawyers said that because it was evidence, they were not going to pursue ownership. (?)

They went to law school I didn't.

Fairbanks $old the tape as his. It is still purchasable as $tock footage (Hear that Dylan? Bring your check book!) and it's digital, one's and zero's so there will be no quality loss.

And before you guys pile on me, no I don't still use 60Hz Xtl - the Nagra sits in the basement, haven't recorded with it in 10 years, but people bring me old tapes once in a while to listen to. I am still a field guy.

[Ducky]

Thank you.

Not to my knowledge - the tape "belongs" to Evan Fairbanks - a freelancer working for Trinity on 9/11. He grabbed Trinity's camera, with Trinity's tape, on Trinity's time, and went out to shoot what was going on. He informed the FBI that he had the footage. FBI marked it as evidence, then returned the tape, which Fairbanks marketed.

I would have thought that with all the things I included above, that the tape would belong to Trinity. Trinity's lawyers said that because it was evidence, they were not going to pursue ownership. (?)

They went to law school I didn't.

Fairbanks $old the tape as his. It is still purchasable as $tock footage (Hear that Dylan? Bring your check book!) and it's digital, one's and zero's so there will be no quality loss.

And before you guys pile on me, no I don't still use 60Hz Xtl - the Nagra sits in the basement, haven't recorded with it in 10 years, but people bring me old tapes once in a while to listen to. I am still a field guy.


So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

Either way, the fact that this new recording is stereo is enough for me to note that it was altered, and there is no way to pin down how altered it has become without comparing it to the original mono source. Therefore: not good evidence of anything, get out the big red rubber "debunked" stamp and slap it on the forehead of whatever asshat brought that thing forward as evidence of a CT.

On a side note, peer review of my assessment above is welcome. I wholly admit it is a theory with little evidence, but it is a very plausible explination of how a mono recording becomes stereo with added content in my opinion. ;)

[60hzxtl]

[QUOTE=fowlsound;1685934]So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

QUOTE]


I'm just a soundman.

I was told by Trinity, that their lawyers said they had no grounds, and the higher ups said that since they were not in the stock footage business, they let it go. They are in the church business.

I'm just a soundman.

Ok, ok soundperson.

[60hzxtl]

Let me also add that Fairbanks is a cameraman, NOT a soundman.

I never met him - my experience with Trinity's gear began a week and a half later.

If I had set the camera mike, ch 1 would have been a preset, ch 2 auto,

or, Ch 1 preset, and ch 2 preset -3db.

(I would not set -6db that would have meant I knew what was going to happen, and had foreknowledge!)

[Ducky]

Let me also add that Fairbanks is a cameraman, NOT a soundman.

I never met him - my experience with Trinity's gear began a week and a half later.

If I had set the camera mike, ch 1 would have been a preset, ch 2 auto,

or, Ch 1 preset, and ch 2 preset -3db.

(I would not set -6db that would have meant I knew what was going to happen, and had foreknowledge!)



Which is why I don't operate cameras. I am merely a fader jockey that makes crap bands sound less crap...

[kookbreaker]

I am merely a fader jockey that makes crap bands sound less crap...

Is that quote on your resume? :D

[Ducky]

Is that quote on your resume? :D



It should be...

[Gravy]

So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

Either way, the fact that this new recording is stereo is enough for me to note that it was altered, and there is no way to pin down how altered it has become without comparing it to the original mono source. Therefore: not good evidence of anything, get out the big red rubber "debunked" stamp and slap it on the forehead of whatever asshat brought that thing forward as evidence of a CT.

On a side note, peer review of my assessment above is welcome. I wholly admit it is a theory with little evidence, but it is a very plausible explination of how a mono recording becomes stereo with added content in my opinion. ;)

Fairbanks might part with a copy for free if you explain what the use is and offer to write up your findings for him. I'm sure he'd be interested to know if a fake is out there.

[Ducky]

Fairbanks might part with a copy for free if you explain what the use is and offer to write up your findings for him. I'm sure he'd be interested to know if a fake is out there.


I'd be happy to contact him, but I have no idea how.

So if I do this analysis, do I get to be a JREF ninja?

[60hzxtl]

Also, there is no sound on his footage of the second plane hitting the second tower.

Camera mike was not yet switched on.

Mike switched on later.

[Ducky]

Also, there is no sound on his footage of the second plane hitting the second tower.

Camera mike was not yet switched on.

Mike switched on later.



Just out of curiosity, has anyone claimed to have sound from your camera for that incident?

[60hzxtl]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone claimed to have sound from your camera for that incident?


Not to my knowledge. But that is a heads up if it "does appear"

And its not my camera.

Also heading off the "it was erased" CT.

[Hellbound]

I think you mean Rimmer.

GAH!

Been too long since I've seen the show. Still, can't believe I mixed up THAT.

No I work for the VAMC as a computer specialist in medical imaging, ie Radiology, Nuclear Medicine....

I'm not sure what I want to do over I just thought I would do something and see how they reacted to the truth.

You know, I should have realized this, since you mentioned PET scanning. My brain must not have turned on yesterday.

[Ducky]

Not to my knowledge. But that is a heads up if it "does appear"

And its not my camera.

Also heading off the "it was erased" CT.



I stand corrected, and your exceptions are noted.

Anyone wanna bet if those claims show up?

[chipmunk stew]

I'd be happy to contact him, but I have no idea how.

So if I do this analysis, do I get to be a JREF ninja?I think you've proven yourself to be totally ninjarrific already.

You, 60hzxtl, and ktesibios combine to form a Ninja Wall of Sound, obliterating woos with your Sonic Wave of Doom.

[farrisjs]

You know, I should have realized this, since you mentioned PET scanning. My brain must not have turned on yesterday.

There brains are all turn off at the LC forum, I think they thought I was talking about a weapon. I don't think they do any thinking over there. It didn't take people on this forum very long to see I wasn't saying much.

[60hzxtl]

I think you've proven yourself to be totally ninjarrific already.

You, 60hzxtl, and ktesibios combine to form a Ninja Wall of Sound, obliterating woos with your Sonic Wave of Doom.


Sounds like an explosion to me!

[Johnny Pixels]

Here's a video of a controlled demolition link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm)

Note the amount of wiring required to ensure the charges blow in the correct order.

[MarkyX]

Need a quick help.

Can someone link me to a quote Dylan saying (including date and source) along the lines of distributing on any public place as much as he can...

Going to pull a nasty on him on the Screw Loose Change video site. Just need a quote.

[dubfan]

You, 60hzxtl, and ktesibios combine to form a Ninja Wall of Sound, obliterating woos with your Sonic Wave of Doom.

Frequency Ninja!

Amplitude Ninja!

RMS Ninja!

[60hzxtl]

Frequency Ninja!

Amplitude Ninja!

RMS Ninja!


Ahhh Criminy, now I'm gonna need a new avatar!

Yippeeee! 100 posts

[Belz...]

I think you've proven yourself to be totally ninjarrific already.

You, 60hzxtl, and ktesibios combine to form a Ninja Wall of Sound, obliterating woos with your Sonic Wave of Doom.

[Roy Scheider voice]We're gonna need a bigger dojo.[/Roy Scheider voice]

[delphi_ote]

So if I do this analysis, do I get to be a JREF ninja?
Can you strike with the fury of a storm yet rest with the calm of a mountain? Do you move like the wind through the grass? Is your mind more deadly than your blade?

Look deep inside yourself and ask your consciousness, "Am I a ninja?"

If the answer is "yes," then take up your Sword of Occam against the darkness of the Looser Zombies and join the JREF Ninja Wave!

[Ducky]

Frequency Ninja!

Amplitude Ninja!

RMS Ninja!


How about:

Phase-Cancellation Ninja

Summing Amp Ninja

Signal Path Ninja

2-Track Ninja

Compression Ninja

Reverb Ninja

Effects Ninja

Foley Ninja

Studio Ninja

Preamp Ninja

Pickup Ninja

Dynamic Ninja

Condensor Ninja




I could go on for hours...

[Ducky]

Can you strike with the fury of a storm yet rest with the calm of a mountain? Do you move like the wind through the grass? Is your mind more deadly than your blade?

Look deep inside yourself and ask your consciousness, "Am I a ninja?"

If the answer is "yes," then take up your Sword of Occam against the darkness of the Looser Zombies.


The answer is "YES" at a resounding 160db.

Gimme a f***ing sword...

[delphi_ote]

The answer is "YES" at a resounding 160db.

Gimme a f***ing sword...
Look in your hand and you will see your sword was there all along. A ninja and his sword are one.

No, fowlsound. Not THAT sword. Put that thing away!

[Ducky]

I need a ninja avatar