Loose Change - Part II

[Kiwiwriter]

Split from "Loose Change" to try and make it more accessible. Part 1 can be found here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102
I heard about this DVD from seeing it advertised on E-Bay for $1 a pop ad nauseum. I read the screenplay on a website that debunked it, and got very angry after reading it.

Stuff like "Loose Change" and all these conspiracy theories are a massive insult to the cops, firefighters, PA cops, and PA employees who died in that building on September 11. Through my wife, I know 85 of the PA guys who died in it. A high school classmate died in it (a big wheel in the PA), and so did the brother of another alumnus (and son of one of my teachers).

My pal Mike Sheridan was operations manager of the WTC during the 1993 blast. Not AN operations manager, THE operations manager. He had a key ring that would cost him $75,000 to replace. He could open every door in the building. He saved lives in 1993, then retired to Florida. But because of his post and importance in the union, he was in touch with all the PA people from top to bottom. He got to see the people he saved in 1993 die horribly in 2001, watching it from his lounger in Boca Raton.

Mike and I have discussed the WTC bombings many times, and he's made it clear that the conspiracy theories are horse manure on a grand scale. Yes, the building could be knocked down by planes full of jet fuel. Yes, it was knocked down by planes full of jet fuel. Yes, the official story is what happened. No, George Bush, the Mossad, the Masons, the Bilderbergers, and the World Wildlife Fund did NOT blow up the buildings and kill thousands of innocents to cover up launching a war, stealing gold, or imposing a Fascist dictatorship on the United States.

The real problem, as I see it, is that thanks to Vietnam, Watergate, and the scandals since then, we now have whole generations of intelligent people in the United States, who simply do not believe anything authority tells them. They are completely cynicized, regard everything but urban legends, conspiracy theories, and Comedy Central as being part of some grand conspiracy, and nothing but liars.

They don't trust anybody...except their psychic. :boggled:

[Regnad Kcin]

Excellent post, Kiwiwriter. And welcome to the forum!

[kookbreaker]

Explosives...mixed...with concrete?

Mixed?

Explosives?

*Huntsman shakes it off*

You know, I can mix a couple hundred eggs with concrete, but it doesn't leave me with anything useable in an omelet.

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.

[Gravy]

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.
That was "love" (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1340538&postcount=116) in the "Any Conspiracy Busters..." thread. If anyone reading this thread finds CTs to be obstinate lunkheads, try reading that one. It's absolutely brutal. geggy is a breath of fresh air and light comedy compared to "thesyntaxera" on that thread. In his first post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1336872&postcount=21), he gets almost everything wrong, despite having been "researching (not just debating)" (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1336995&postcount=28) these issues for four years. I wish I had found that thread before jumping into this stuff. The logic and evidence demonstrated by Year Zero, Kevin Lowe, kookbreaker, CurtC, MRC Hans, Manny, and others, combined with he moonbat claims of thesyntaxera, make for a good introduction to debunking of any kind.


eta link

[aggle-rithm]

Someone actually may have said as much earlier in this thread, although it may have been in the 'Any Conspiracy Busters in here" thread.

In any case, he was impervious to the idea that mixing the two leaves you with something that is neither good for demolition or for structuring.

I saw a special on the building of the Hoover Dam where the question arose of whether any workers were entombed in the concrete after accidentally falling in. An expert said, "Of course not! They would never let that happen. The bodies would have weakened the concrete."

You can imagine what tons of explosives would have done.

[Hellbound]

Not to mention that the explosives most likely would not work.

Scratch that, it would not work, not if there was enough concrete left to still function function as concrete.

I mean, these people apparently think that all you have to do to get plastic explosive is mix some smokeless powder with some Play-DohTM. It doesn't work that way.

The depths of ignorance never cease to astound me.

[Correa Neto]

What exactly are the CT's "proposals" that would work? Still have not seen any.

All I see is stupidity. Like the small nuke and the thermite "theories". The "theories" involving missiles and UAVs can be easilly debunked by reading info and specs readilly avaliable in defense magazines and sites.

[Hellbound]

Yeah, but there are levels of ignorance.

You know, the thermite claim shows an ignorance of explosives and structural engineering. The Concrete-explosives mixed claim shows an ignorance of chemistry, physics, explosives, structural engineering, and construction techniques.

Just seems to be a broader, deeper ignorance than the run-of-the-mill stupidity.

[Correa Neto]

You know, just like some woos, these guys seem to take ideas right up from the lower end of their digestive system... Never check, never care about considering feasibility. The explosives/concrete mix is an example. Note that besides the obvious problems related to strenght of the concrete, explosive location, concentration, and placement of detonators, it would imply WTC was meant to be destroyed since it was planned!!!!

Its stupid.

They spend days checking the latest CT buzz but never care to check, say, the specs of a sidewinder missile to see if it can do what they claim it did!!!

Its stupid.

[Hellbound]

Yep.

The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google.

Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most.

But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion).

[Ramooone]

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4711&view=findpost&p=4627571

[Overman]

I am on page 13, I plan on reading this whole thing. I am currently argueing (I don't know why I am, but I feel compelled to) with a couple CTers on www.stereokiller.com

The first 5 pages were just about all I needed to refute many of their claims. I can't wait till I get to page 78!!(holy crap this is a monster thread)

Thanks for all the info everyone!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated.

[Gravy]

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4711&view=findpost&p=4627571
Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: (http://www.xanga.com/pr0mythius)

Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time
But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction."

1) I hate David Icke.

2) If you're going to discuss the Annunaki then you need to do a little homework on them first. Long story short. 12th planet on a crazy orbit enters close to our planet every 1,200 or 12,000 years I forget. The Anunnaki are "God". They played scientist with the monkey DNA in order to create a slave race to mine gold for them. Gold is their oil. Thus this is the reason we have a gold based economy. They were worshipped by the Sumerians I believe.

3) If you really want to learn about the Annunaki then you need to visit Zecharia Sitchin and stay away from Icke.

[Hutch]

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4711&view=findpost&p=4627571

Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread--:covereyes

That one killed brain cells.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yep.

The majority of their claims could be disproven with 5 minutes on Google.

Heck, even with 10 minutes and a good encyclopedia, for most.

But, as much as they talk about how important it is, and how dedicated they are, and how the truth must be found...they don't do even the basic checking of facts. They don't even attempt to find unbiased sources. They look only for CT sights and CT papers, assuming that only those who already believe are objective. It's an odd case of begging the question. Beggint he question by proxy, maybe (they only look for or accept evidence from those who already agree with their pre-formed conclusion).

I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims.

[Hellbound]

I'd disagree on the Google point. There is so much drek from CT sites cluttering search results it gives me a headache trying to do fact checking against their claims.

Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that :)

[dubfan]

Yeah, I have been following that myself--David Icke and Planet X and terrorcell (who started his post sounding quite sane) dragging in Stichin and somebody else mentioning Hovind---all in the same thread--:covereyes

That one killed brain cells.

Not there now. Following the link returns an error.

ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, I limit most of my searches to .edu and .gov domains, so perhaps I miss a lot of that :)

Probably. I find that I end up with a search string of "<stuff i'm looking for> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> -<ct website> etc"

[kookbreaker]

Not there now. Following the link returns an error.


Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it?

[Hutch]

....If they ever do, must be problems in giving a name, location, and birthdate--heck, some regulars here left because of the rule, can you imagine the CT'ers take on asking for that info???

Anyway, rather than keep this thread going-to very likely answer the same questions again--I would propose that 4-5 threads be started with titles much like a HS Debate for each of the major topics. For example:

Resolved: Flight 77 Hit the Pentagon

Resolved: Flight 93 Crashed in Pennsylvania

Resolved: Flights 11 and (sorry, I vapor lock) hit the WTC 1 and 2.

Resolved: WTC 1 and WTC 2 were brought down by demolition charges

Resolved: WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition

This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete)

Just a though if/when the LC'ers get approval.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Can woowoo's make a theory so goofy that even they can't stand it?

As a whole? No. On an individual basis? Yes.

[Correa Neto]

All I can get is a
You do not have permission to view this topic
Message.

And checking LC forum main page I can not find a link to Alternative Theories. Quite possibly, its only for members.

[CFLarsen]

I'm there. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4910&st=0&#entry4727506)

[Hutch]

I'm there. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4910&st=0&#entry4727506)

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) :eek: :cool:

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.

[pgwenthold]

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if R & Q were eliminated.

Hey, you took that from Mitch Hedberg's letter to his dad!

(I think it was Mitch Hedberg - there is another comedian named Mitch that is kind of similar, but in a cruder way - Ducks eat free at Subway!)

[CFLarsen]

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) :eek: :cool:

Hehehe....

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.

Yep, I noticed the flustered responses too.

Gee, someone could actually check what they claimed. And rebut it too, by pointing out that the story came from AP and not the Danish journalist!

One false story down, a million to go...

[money]

Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive...

[Pardalis]

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4711&view=findpost&p=4627571

Forget about all the physical evidence and basic logic to try to convince anyone that LC is wrong. All we need to do is show anybody who is "on the fence" some of these LC threads and they'll realise how nuts these conspiracists are.

[Gravy]

Not there now. Following the link returns an error. ETA: weird, you have to log in to see it. I wonder if "Alternative Theories" is viewable only to registered members. The skeptics forum was that way for a while, too.
I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site.

Now they're for it; JREF has deployed its WMP (Weapon of Mass Posting) :eek: :cool:

Seriously, I think that is why the few skeptics posting there cause so much consternation--I mean, they reference a Danish newspaper, we have a bloody Dane to rebut it. They are quite unused to having people with knowledge and skills opposing them, IMHO.
That Ekstra Bladet article made as much sense to me as anything i've seen on the LC forum, and I don't speak Danish.

[dubfan]

I simply couldn't allow that thread to go on, so I psychically vampirically sucked it off the site.

If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now.

[Mr. Skinny]

Wow, this thread is up over 100,000 views. That's pretty impressive...
Not really. 237.5 of those views are mine. We government shills have to monitor the thread closely, but only post the occasional disinformation needed to prop up the "Skeptics Theory (ST)" We ST'ers are sneaky that way!:)

Edited for mis-acronyming?

[WildCat]

This would at least quantify the arguments and focus them on the major points, rather than being all over the place like this thread and also will dispense with some of the odder ideas (Icke's reptiles, explosives in concrete)
Hutch, CT'ers cannot stay on topic, it's programmed into their DNA. I guarantee you their first post in the Pentagon thread would involve WTC 7.

[hellaeon]

Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: (http://www.xanga.com/pr0mythius)


But the funniest thing on that thread is when "Terrorcell" gets involved with a "correction."

Isnt the planet Tiamat, and expected every 3600 years?
I need to go and get my 12th planet book!

[Beleth]

Originally Posted by Beleth http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/misc/backlink.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1654812#post1654697):
What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?
So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11? Your questions don't answer my question.

What is left to investigate further?

[Correa Neto]

If only. I just talked to one of the mods over there. The "Alternative Theories" Forum should be visible to non-members now.
Thank you.

You just showed me drinking alcohol is not the only way to burn neurons. This one really sucks...

[NoZed Avenger]

Unfortunately not a joke, just another moron. This is from that guy's website: (http://www.xanga.com/pr0mythius)


Expertise: really messed up ****, the illuminati, anunnaki, psychic vampirism, witchcraft, giving advice(more like showing options, but yea), i pretty much become a mild expert at anything i show an interest in .. i'm the type to research stuff hardcore for months at a time


I hope his next project is "grammar and punctuation." Geeze.

[dubfan]

Thank you.

You just showed me drinking alcohol is not the only way to burn neurons. This one really sucks...

It hurt me worse than it hurts you.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<Gomer Pyle>
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!
</Gomer Pyle>

Arkan_Wolfshade,
Your member account at Loose Change Forum has been temporarily suspended.

Your account will not be functional until Jun 24 2006, 02:31 AM (depending on your timezone). This is an automated process and you do not need to do anything to expediate the unsuspension process.

Board Address: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php

[dubfan]

Me too. Not sure what I did (or didn't do) to warrant the lesser punishment, though.

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on May 26 2006, 08:29 AM.

ETA: looks like an IP ban, too.

[Ramooone]

The CT claim that silverstein made alot of money off the collapse of WTC 7 is completely untrue.

His lease only covered WTC 1 and 2. It was on the news today because of the new WTC7 opening up, they explained about how his lease and insurance worked and WTC7 was not part of it. if i can find the clip i'll post it.

[chucksheen]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.

[dubfan]

Welcome to the JREF forums, chuck.

[Pardalis]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Kind of a rude way to start, but welcome anyway...

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org

The site starts with :'It is the duty of EVERY citizen of Earth to view this film!!!"

Kind of demagogic isn't it?


b) Watch all documentaries and get informed

I suggest you read this entire thread too, should take you as long and it would inform you too.

c) Form an opinion

Already have, don't need advice from you.


d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

I will try to watch them, just for the sake of argument. But you have to read this whole thread as well.


UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.

All right already. Don't judge us before we have said anything. Keep it cool.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.

Two posts in and already he's being arrogant and calling names.

This should be short, but entertaining.

[Manny]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Welcome to the forums, C. Here's the thing: On the top list of videos, I've already seen LC, of course. Turns out, Every. Single. Material. Factual. Allegation. Is. False. That has been demonstrated by Gravy's as yet un-rebutted guide to that particular piece.

Then, moving to the second list of videos, I notice that the second video, the one which is bolded, is from a person, Jesse MacBeth, who was in fact not an Army Ranger and did not say or do the things he claims to have said or done-- indeed, there's no small question as to whether he was ever in the army at all!

So my question is this: If the very table of contents of your link is full of documented lies, what incentive does a fair-minded person have to spend literally 13 hours wading through the videos themselves?

[Regnad Kcin]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here...Dear Conspiracy Theorist:

You are 100% wrong.

Love,

RK

[dubfan]

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs.

70 Million Americans Can't Be Wrong! (http://universalseed.org/)

If that wasn't enough to get your attention, the site also features a prominent, highlighted link to discredited fraud Jesse Macbeth.

FWIW, I started your challenge. Viewed Pentagon Strike, Thermite Experiments, South Tower Collapse, and of course, have already seen Loose Change.

Nothing new in any of these.

Not an auspicious debut, chuck.

[Pardalis]

Now I'm almost half-way throught the first movie (I admit I fast-forwarded alot of the long bits and the interview with the non-expert-in-anything-witness-from-the-other-side-of-the-river-guy). They are trying to make us believe that there were multiple explosions before the first collapse. But they only rely on the footage of a camera set on the other side of the river, so we can't really see or hear anything (except some wind blowing into the camera's mic).

There's also speculations about helicopter having something to do with the collapse because of "suspicious" flashes of light... Gosh... How can I take this seriously?

Anyway, just for the sake of argument, I'll finish watching it...

[bob_kark]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.

Charles! Glad to see you finally made it! I had a question for you. What type of explosives were used to demolish the WTC?

[hellaeon]

Dear Conspiracy Theorist:

You are 100% wrong.

Love,

RK

hahahaha

Interesting to note members from here are told to practice tolerance?

Anyway, ill have a squiz to, the good thing about it is perhaps another wave of properly researched critiques can be made from these other vids?

I'd like to ask CS, what do you think could explode in a building besides explosives? nothing?

Does it disturb you that the official story stays very much the same and only expands as answers are found but every conspiracy theory is beaten, changed, mangled, manipulated to fit the 'current' facts? - each supported by similar distorted half truths and misquotes, illogic

[karim]

chucsheen Google Jesse Macbeth. Looks like he's not quite honest. And by the way I just visited an islamic forum and there it was, Jesse Macbeth video. Can you guess the reaction. So thank you "Jesse Machbeth" for making the anger even more deeper.

[Gravy]

Howdy, sports fans.

I've been thinking about the problem of people coming here for our take on 9/11 issues and quickly being overwhelmed. Not wanting to repeat the same arguments, we ask newcomers to read this thread before debating us. While that may be a good idea, I doubt if many people have the time or patience to make it through 4,600 posts.

I've made a clickable index of what I consider to be the most informative (and a few of the funniest) of the recent 9/11 posts here and on other JREF 9/11 threads. It's an Excel spreadsheet, and the link to it is in my signature below. Any spreadsheet program should open it.

The index only goes back to November, 2005, so I apologize to anyone who posted great 9/11 material before that. I reviewed over 7,000 posts, and that's enough for now!

The spreadsheet file has three pages (tabs at the bottom of the window), each with the same links but sorted differently:
Page 1: sorted by category
Page 2: sorted by date, oldest to newest (links contain chronological page and post numbers)
Page 3: sorted by poster.

Of course, you can sort this info any way you like, create more categories, highlight your favorite entries, etc. To save time I made just a few broad categories.

To me, by far the most interesting info is in the "Conspiracy Thought" category. It's a clinic on critical thinking and how to confront complex questions – and difficult people – logically. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I can't tell you how many times I had "Why the hell didn't I think of that?" experiences while reading your posts.

I hope this will be a useful resource for newcomers and old-timers alike.

-G

[CptColumbo]

I only have dial-up, so I'm afraid you have to present your arguments in your own words.

I'm sorry we don't have cool smilies here, we just have good posts.

[Gravy]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.
Welcome, chucksheen!
First, I'd like to point out that there's more than one way to take this statement:
If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention.
I've been extremely appalled since I started looking into the truth behind 9/11 conspiracy claims, including the claims made in several videos on your list.

I probably won't get to all of the items on that list soon. I've seen LC2 and 911 Eyewitness, and I'm familiar with the work of Jones and Griffin. Aside from those, which video do you recommend first as being particularly impressive and accurate?


edited to rearrange

[Pardalis]

Man, I can't watch this junk, this is torture! Forget it, I can't do it.

Chuck, why don't you raise a specific question regarding 9/11 and we'll try our best to debate it, because this is indeed a discussion forum, not a boxing arena. I'm afraid your "challenge" to watch all these "movies" is just humanly impossible to accomplish. You win. It's too horribly wrong and insane.

Now lets debate.
pardalis

[karim]

There's also speculations about helicopter having something to do with the collapse because of "suspicious" flashes of light... Gosh... How can I take this seriously?

Yeah, what are they trying to say or what have flashes from a chopper got to do with the collapse. I guess it's up to us trooth seekers to make our own minds. It could have something to do with alien technology, right?


Chucsheen, I watched the "road to tyranny" like two years ago and at that time it was like the most hilarious film I'd ever seen. AJ is crazy but in an entertaining way if you don't take him too seriously. ;)

[Pardalis]

I've made a clickable index of what I consider to be the most informative (and a few of the funniest) of the recent 9/11 posts here and on other JREF 9/11 threads.

Wow, what a brilliant and resourceful guy you are Gravy! This will come in handy!

I was starting to think the large extent of this thread would become it's own flaw, that newcomers wouldn't dare to read it because of that.

Great work Gravy!

[dubfan]

Scholars for 9/11 Truth buy into the Jesse MacBeth fraud (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArWeAreTerrorists23May2006.html).

[chipmunk stew]

Me too. Not sure what I did (or didn't do) to warrant the lesser punishment, though.



ETA: looks like an IP ban, too.*sigh*
stipmunk chew,
Your member account at Loose Change Forum has been temporarily
suspended.

Your account will not be functional until Jun 24 2006, 02:27 AM
(depending on your timezone). This is an automated process and you do not need
to do anything to expediate the unsuspension process.

Board Address: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php)
I didn't even stray from the Skeptics forum...

[fsol]

All that measuring of photos to "prove" the drone theory reminds me somewhat of all that measuring of photos to "prove" that Patty exists.

"No no, it's all in the ratios..."

[SezMe]

Dear Conspiracy Theorist:

You are 100% wrong.

Love,

RK
Rk, this seems to be a damn poor way to welcome a new poster. Sure, he may have proven himself a nutter elsewhere, but I have not been "elsewhere" so have no preconceived notion; I suspect the same is true for most others on this forum. If he is "100% wrong" welcome him with open arms and let the facts fall where they may. Let the EVIDENCE prove him "100% wrong". Your "welcome" is anything but. Sure we're skeptics but let the sketicism work, not your harsh prejudgement.

[SezMe]

It's an Excel spreadsheet, and the link to it is in my signature below.
Why did you put it in your sig? I have sigs turned off so can't get at it. Why not just imbed the link in your post? With the link in your sig, it will show up in Humor, Forum Management, or wherever else you may post. It will be irrelevant there. But putting it in your post will attrack the attention of those who are reading this thread and, thusly, really interested.

[Ducky]

Why did you put it in your sig? I have sigs turned off so can't get at it. Why not just imbed the link in your post? With the link in your sig, it will show up in Humor, Forum Management, or wherever else you may post. It will be irrelevant there. But putting it in your post will attrack the attention of those who are reading this thread and, thusly, really interested.


Conversely, I also show up in humor, forum management and wherever else and am rather irrelevent there too.

[kookbreaker]

Me too. Not sure what I did (or didn't do) to warrant the lesser punishment, though.

ETA: looks like an IP ban, too.

Looks like their little dictator instincts kicked in again.

I expect Hutch and Claus to be banned by the end of the day.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It's reaching critical mass over there. I fully expect massive bannings of everyone that does not follow the Gospel of Dylan in the near future.

I want my million from Randi! :D

Mine's just an account ban, not an IP ban (or at least not my home IP, find out if my work IP is banned when I get there)

[aggle-rithm]

Man, I can't watch this junk, this is torture! Forget it, I can't do it.

Chuck, why don't you raise a specific question regarding 9/11 and we'll try our best to debate it, because this is indeed a discussion forum, not a boxing arena. I'm afraid your "challenge" to watch all these "movies" is just humanly impossible to accomplish. You win. It's too horribly wrong and insane.



Maybe it's like that movie "The Circle", and your brain will explode in seven days if you don't make copies and distribute it...

No, I'm sure that's not true. Try not to think about it. ;)

[Shrinker]

I want my million from Randi! :D

Mine's just an account ban, not an IP ban (or at least not my home IP, find out if my work IP is banned when I get there)
I wonder what our new (and very welcome) guest, chucksheen has to say about this?

Chucksheen, what is the real-life equivalent of a forum account suspension? If the US government were comprised entirely of LC forum moderators, what would happen to people who engaged in political debate?

[kookbreaker]

It looks like Gravy is really, really getting to poor old Dylan.

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/05/do-something.html

Now he has to refer to 'sekrit nowlege' to back up his laughable arguements.

[Gravy]

Why did you put it in your sig? I have sigs turned off so can't get at it. Why not just imbed the link in your post? With the link in your sig, it will show up in Humor, Forum Management, or wherever else you may post. It will be irrelevant there. But putting it in your post will attrack the attention of those who are reading this thread and, thusly, really interested.
I'll admit I forgot that the sigs could be turned off. If I get more requests I'll reconsider what I've done. Here's why I posted the link in my sig:

Visibility: I've made 716 posts. If anyone, from here or via any search engine, goes to any post of mine, they'll see the links in my sig.

Flexibility: I've already revised the document twice, and plan to do so weekly.

Portability: I like to think that the documents I link to, and the reasons that I created them, are relevant wherever I post on this forum, and I hope others pick up on the idea. For instance, since you mentioned it, I'd love to see someone's personal "best of the Humor subforum."

I like the way this forum is organized, and I like its ease of use. My dream forum would include the option for a poster to enter more metadata (category, subject, keywords, etc.) as well as for a reader to be able to flag favorite posts, so that everything could be sorted like a database and we could each have a favorites list in any category or thread.

[Belz...]

The real problem, as I see it, is that thanks to Vietnam, Watergate, and the scandals since then, we now have whole generations of intelligent people in the United States, who simply do not believe anything authority tells them. They are completely cynicized, regard everything but urban legends, conspiracy theories, and Comedy Central as being part of some grand conspiracy, and nothing but liars.

They don't trust anybody...except their psychic. :boggled:

Nice post, man. Welcome.

[Gravy]

So that's three JREF bans in one day at LC? Does anyone have any idea why? Did group 2 forget to stay after class?

By the way, does anyone expect chucksheen to show up here again to actually discuss anything? I certainly don't.

[Hutch]

Looks like their little dictator instincts kicked in again.

I expect Hutch and Claus to be banned by the end of the day.

Well, as of 0630 CST Thursday, I am still in there; maybe because I have been nibbling around the edges and haven't gone head-to-head on any of the big-ticket items.

We shall see.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So that's three JREF bans in one day at LC? Does anyone have any idea why? Did group 2 forget to stay after class?

By the way, does anyone expect chucksheen to show up here again to actually discuss anything? I certainly don't.

Mu. He'll brag at LCf (1) we won't "watch the movies and learn the truth".

[Belz...]

oh man, i hope this thread is a joke, if not then...i dont even know, im speechless

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4711&view=findpost&p=4627571

Agh!

Man, I'd really HATE to find out the whole alien bit is true.. I don't think I can handle another traumatic awakening on top of the 911 one...

Is there an eye-twitching smiley ?? I'm feeling a stroke coming on...

[Belz...]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.

What's your point, really ?

[WildCat]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.
Chuck, this is not the way things work around here. This is not a movie critic forum - it's a forum for debating facts and forming opinions based on those facts that pass muster.

You've done what every other Loose Change afficiendo has done, which is simply to post links to movies, conspiracy web sites, and threads in conspiracy forums. That dog don't hunt here.

I've lurked on the LC forum enough to know that there probably aren't 2 people there who agree on a single conspiracy theory - pod or no pod? Missile or drone? Bombs or thermite? Etc etc...

So, why don't you stick around here and argue your beliefs in your own words. You will not be banned here simply for disagreeing, a far cry from the LC forum.

So how about you post your theory of what happened on 9/11, and the reasons why you think so. Then we have a starting point for a debate.

Good luck!

[WildCat]

It looks like Gravy is really, really getting to poor old Dylan.

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/05/do-something.html

Now he has to refer to 'sekrit nowlege' to back up his laughable arguements.
Haha!This is great news, poor little Dylan!
Stop bitching about our movie, and make your own. Prove us wrong, instead of relying on petty insults and ridiculous assumptions about three people you know nothing about, except maybe our names.

Now that is rich! What is it w/ these people and movies? Does everything have to be in movie form to be admissable as evidence?
If you really want somewhere to shoot your mouth off, again, that's what the forums are for. Go nuts.
Perhaps we have the reason for the recent suspensions there?

[Gravy]

It looks like Gravy is really, really getting to poor old Dylan.
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/05/do-something.html
Now he has to refer to 'sekrit nowlege' to back up his laughable arguements.
From Avery's blog
If you guys really knew what went on behind the scenes 24-7, and if you actually took the time to meet us in person before drawing conclusions about us or our work, then your assinine websites and your "Viewer Guides" would drop off the radar pretty damn quick.
Dylan, you're forgetting two things:

1) I asked you guys in person (I asked Bermas while you were there), "Do you stand behind your work?" He said "Damn right." So what's this about "drawing conclusions?" Since we aren't in your inner sanctum, on what should we base our conclusions if not on the work that you produce, feverishly promote, and boast about?

2) I REQUESTED a meeting with you before your last visit to New York. Why didn't you respond? If you can show me that you've taken a drastic turn towards producing valid work, I think I can be influential in changing people's minds here.

I'm posting this here because you haven't responded to my emails, your mods have banned me from your site (although I broke no rules), and you no longer allow comments on your blog.

Here's something to think about: I never would have produced my "Viewer's Guide" if your website allowed free discussion. In the past few hours three more JREF people have been banned from that site. Perhaps you can explain how this is in keeping with a search for knowledge.

[Gravy]

Did you know that the Loosers are expecting a tsunami to hit the east coast of the U.S. today?

No, really. They are.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4933&view=getnewpost

[Darat]

Did you know that the Loosers are expecting a tsunami to hit the east coast of the U.S. today?

No, really. They are.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4933&view=getnewpost

As are we: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660513#post1660513

I can do you an inflatable dinghy - it's yours for the deeds to your house...

[Hutch]

.....What is it w/ these people and movies? Does everything have to be in movie form to be admissable as evidence?

I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.

[chipmunk stew]

I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.Don't worry. I was young and stupid once, too--and not terribly long ago.

[kookbreaker]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.


Dear CHUCKSHEEN,

Thank you for your submission of _STOCK PHRASES_ and _CHEST BEATING COMMENTARY_.

We regret that we must refuse your sumbission for now as it:

( ) Does not suit our present needs
( ) Clashes with the decor
( ) Is not OCEA certified
(*) We already have ample supply of _STOCK PHRASES & CHEST BEATING COMMENTARY_

Please note that if 'ample supply' is checked, we request that you do not resubmit your submission, as in many cases a little of these things goes a long way.

Thank you for your continued interest,

The Management

[Gravy]

As are we: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660513#post1660513

I can do you an inflatable dinghy - it's yours for the deeds to your house...
Aah, but our thread started with a smiley face...a BIG GREEN smiley face.

Hmm. That could just mean the poster doesn't live on the east coast.

Now I'm bummed that I sold my canoe last year.

[Pardalis]

Now I'm bummed that I sold my canoe last year.

What about a kayak?;)

[Pardalis]

I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.

Chucksheen's: "Here is the challenge should you accept" did sound alot like "Mission Impossible".

[Stellafane]

I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here...[typical CT stupidity that proves he doesn't know the meaning of rational, reasonable, or critical...or thinker for that matter]

Welcome, chucksheen. Assuming that you're the real Chuck Sheen (and not just one of those lonely little boys who wishes he were), are you still dating whores?

(I know I know, ad hom, ad hom...)

[chipmunk stew]

Don't worry. I was young and stupid once, too--and not terribly long ago.I was never this stupid, though:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4831

[sophia8]

Welcome, chucksheen. Assuming that you're the real Chuck Sheen (and not just one of those lonely little boys who wishes he were), are you still dating whores?

(I know I know, ad hom, ad hom...)Oh, leave him alone! He's only little - go pick on somebody your own size...

Anyway, welcome Chuck. In response to your challenge, how about you reading through every single post on this thread, then giving us your opinion?

[Pardalis]

I was never this stupid, though:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4831

According to these CT nuts, there seems to have been an inordinate number of flashes of light that day (on the second plane, on helicopters, before and during the collapse). Wouldn't it be possible that it was because this was early in the morning and the sun was still low when these pictures were taken (thus these flashes could be simply light reflections on metal) ? Why jump to the conclusion that these were explosions?

100% proof? Give me a break.

[Belz...]

I'll admit I forgot that the sigs could be turned off. If I get more requests I'll reconsider what I've done. Here's why I posted the link in my sig:

Visibility: I've made 716 posts. If anyone, from here or via any search engine, goes to any post of mine, they'll see the links in my sig.

Flexibility: I've already revised the document twice, and plan to do so weekly.


Great ressource, Gravy. Once again, you are our saviour.

Didn't expect to find some of my own posts in there. Thanks!

[Belz...]

Did you know that the Loosers are expecting a tsunami to hit the east coast of the U.S. today?

No, really. They are.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4933&view=getnewpost

<Giggling uncontrolably>

[Kiwiwriter]

If that wasn't enough to get your attention, the site also features a prominent, highlighted link to Jesse MacBeth.

FWIW, I started your challenge. Viewed Pentagon Strike, Thermite Experiments, South Tower Collapse, and of course, have already seen Loose Change.

Nothing new in any of these.

Not an auspicious debut, chuck.

What amuses and frightens me at the same time about these conspiracy theories is that they all seem to wind down to the same basic idea, in the end: rehashing the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion." In the end, they all blame the same target: Satan's tools, the evil Jews.

If there hadn't been so much genocidal slaughter over the centuries because of this idiotic theory -- more survivable than cockroaches after a nuclear war -- it would be funny.

And if there really was a "Jewish conspiracy," I'd be earning a LOT more money.

[Abbyas]

So that's three JREF bans in one day at LC? Does anyone have any idea why? Did group 2 forget to stay after class?

Four. I was also suspended. No idea why.

[Kiwiwriter]

Excellent post, Kiwiwriter. And welcome to the forum!

And your warm words.

I also applaud your use of Mr. Peabody as your avatar. He was always one of my favorite cartoon characters.

Back in my misspent days as a Navy radio broadcaster, I did Bullwinkle the Moose on radio spots, but we had a guy who did him better, so we did a spot in which Bullwinkle (him) pulls Marvin the Martian (me) out of that hat.

The conspiracy theories about 9/11 irritate me on so many levels. Not only because of my intense dislike of such nonsense, but because I'm on Newark's Emergency Operations and Homeland Security Committees. On 9/11, I wrote the press releases and statements from the city to our residents from our command center. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies were there, activated.

I can assure you...they were taken by complete surprise, too.

Another one that irritates me is the story that 4,000 Jews were "warned to leave" New York and the World Trade Center. Those obviously did not include my brother, my wife, my best friend's wife, the executive director of the Port Authority (Neil Levin); and the executive secretary of the PA, who was a high school classmate, Daniel Bergstein. The latter two died in the North Tower.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can understand extremely complicated conspiracy theories, heavily dependent on "dangerous speculation," but can't accept or understand simple answers. I often wonder if the conspiracy theory precedes the event or the other way around.

[kookbreaker]

Four. I was also suspended. No idea why.

Thoughtcrime.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Thoughtcrime.

Well that's double-plus ungood!

[Kiwiwriter]

Well that's double-plus ungood!

Obviously, you don't "bellyfeel Ingsoc."

I'm amused that the authors of a conspiracy theory DVD that questions the government would ban commentary on their own words. But I've noticed a similar thing in Holocaust denial...they will tolerate no criticism of Adolf Hitler, no matter how mild.

"Loose Change is double-plus goodful duckspeak!" :D

[Gravy]

What about a kayak?;)
Sorry, one blade is all a man needs if he knows how to use it.

[kookbreaker]

Obviously, you don't "bellyfeel Ingsoc."

I'm amused that the authors of a conspiracy theory DVD that questions the government would ban commentary on their own words. But I've noticed a similar thing in Holocaust denial...they will tolerate no criticism of Adolf Hitler, no matter how mild.

"Loose Change is double-plus goodful duckspeak!" :D

Loose change forum rectify. Milliplentyfy skeptic thoughtcrime. Rectify. Skeptic unperson. Minitrue forum plusgood Goodthink. Dylan Avery doubleplusgood!

[Gravy]

The conspiracy theories about 9/11 irritate me on so many levels. Not only because of my intense dislike of such nonsense, but because I'm on Newark's Emergency Operations and Homeland Security Committees. On 9/11, I wrote the press releases and statements from the city to our residents from our command center. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies were there, activated.

I can assure you...they were taken by complete surprise, too.

Another one that irritates me is the story that 4,000 Jews were "warned to leave" New York and the World Trade Center. Those obviously did not include my brother, my wife, my best friend's wife, the executive director of the Port Authority (Neil Levin); and the executive secretary of the PA, who was a high school classmate, Daniel Bergstein. The latter two died in the North Tower.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can understand extremely complicated conspiracy theories, heavily dependent on "dangerous speculation," but can't accept or understand simple answers. I often wonder if the conspiracy theory precedes the event or the other way around.
Welcome, Kiwiwriter. Your insights are very much appreciated here.

[SBrown]

Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

Thanks

[chipmunk stew]

Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

ThanksHow 'bout his email address: randi@randi.org

[Gravy]

Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

Thanks
Welcome!
Couple of questions:

1) Why should we believe the Zogby poll, which was written by the leaders of 911truth.org?

2) Have you asked Mr. Randi?

[Mutton-Head]

I ran across this site, and had to comment

Forget for a moment the “conspiracy theory.” I always like to take it a step at a time. Let’s pretend we’re on CSI. (I think I’ve seen one episode.) Our first is task to determine: “What happened?” It’s not yet our job to determine “Who did it?” or “How many were involved?” or “How much did they spend?” or “Why did they do it?” These questions would be premature at this point.

Also, let’s keep it simple. I like to use the following rule:
If I can’t verify a piece of information, I throw it out. (For example, this witness said, this video is missing, I see missile launchers, etc. Yes, some or allot of this stuff is laughable.)
Let’s start with things that are incontrovertible. (At least as close to incontrovertible as one can get.)

A little physics.

An object falling to earth falls with a specific amount of force:
The mass of the object multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity.

Mass x Acceleration = Force.

Think of this force as money in a bank account. You only have a specific amount that you can spend. No more.

It takes force to accelerate any object. Even a falling object.

When an object falls to earth, all of its potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. Its force (M x A = F) is used-up (spent) to accomplish this acceleration. This is called free-fall. If any solid object is situated below this falling object, some of this “free-fall” force will be absorbed (used) (spent). The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent). Force was also used to cut up the vertical steel beams. All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound. Also, all of the concrete was turned into powder. This like-wise took force.

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.

As I said, the equation is way out of balance. If you add up the cost of:
1.) accelerating the top floors to free-fall speed
2.) cutting beams into pieces
3.) throwing beams out away from the building
4.) pulverizing the concrete (and everything else) to powder.
… You have a total that was more than we had in our bank account.

The next step then, would be to find out where this extra force came from. Explosives are the only plausible explanation that I can come up with. This also would solve the problem that the building collapsed symmetrically in its own foot-print. This has NEVER happened spontaneously, from a fire, or earthquake, or hurricane, or plane crash. But we have seen it occur hundreds of times from controlled demolitions. (Explosives inside the building at predetermined locations, exploded in a predetermined sequence.)

Thanks for your time.

Please excuse the excessive use of alliteration.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Would Shermer do?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000

editors' commentary on the response to the piece:
http://sciam-editor.typepad.com/weblog1/2005/05/a_conspiracy_of.html

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip for brevity>
(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)
</snip for brevity>

Show your math please.

[milesalpha]

I don't think this is quite Randi's field. Anyway I can't quite see what the 9/11 "truth" movement needs with another series of questions they can't answer.

[Gravy]

I ran across this site, and had to comment

Forget for a moment the “conspiracy theory.” I always like to take it a step at a time. Let’s pretend we’re on CSI. (I think I’ve seen one episode.) Our first is task to determine: “What happened?” It’s not yet our job to determine “Who did it?” or “How many were involved?” or “How much did they spend?” or “Why did they do it?” These questions would be premature at this point.

Also, let’s keep it simple. I like to use the following rule:
If I can’t verify a piece of information, I throw it out. (For example, this witness said, this video is missing, I see missile launchers, etc. Yes, some or allot of this stuff is laughable.)
Let’s start with things that are incontrovertible. (At least as close to incontrovertible as one can get.)

A little physics.

An object falling to earth falls with a specific amount of force:
The mass of the object multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity.

Mass x Acceleration = Force.

Think of this force as money in a bank account. You only have a specific amount that you can spend. No more.

It takes force to accelerate any object. Even a falling object.

When an object falls to earth, all of its potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. Its force (M x A = F) is used-up (spent) to accomplish this acceleration. This is called free-fall. If any solid object is situated below this falling object, some of this “free-fall” force will be absorbed (used) (spent). The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent). Force was also used to cut up the vertical steel beams. All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound. Also, all of the concrete was turned into powder. This like-wise took force.

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.

As I said, the equation is way out of balance. If you add up the cost of:
1.) accelerating the top floors to free-fall speed
2.) cutting beams into pieces
3.) throwing beams out away from the building
4.) pulverizing the concrete (and everything else) to powder.
… You have a total that was more than we had in our bank account.

The next step then, would be to find out where this extra force came from. Explosives are the only plausible explanation that I can come up with. This also would solve the problem that the building collapsed symmetrically in its own foot-print. This has NEVER happened spontaneously, from a fire, or earthquake, or hurricane, or plane crash. But we have seen it occur hundreds of times from controlled demolitions. (Explosives inside the building at predetermined locations, exploded in a predetermined sequence.)

Thanks for your time.

Please excuse the excessive use of alliteration.

Since you know the "equations don't balance," please present your math.

[Shrinker]

the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more.

Welcome Mutton-Head, I'm sure we all (especially the non-physics-experts) appreciate your detailed and hyperlink-free explanation. You have mixed up the concepts of force and energy pretty badly, but your point still works for me.

The above quote does not however. A 'few seconds' means a lot in freefall calculations. In this thread is has already been shown that the acceleration of the towers was only about 60-70% of freefall acceleration, even when using timings supplied by CT advocates. This means at least 30% of the potential energy of the tower was available for the destructive process you describe. That's A LOT.

[Hellbound]

Also, present your evidence that it "fell within it's own footprint", especially since your earlier statements contended that pieces of steel were thrown "hundreds of yards from the building". Also in light of the fact that buildings over a huge area were damaged by the fall, and photos of the aftermath clearly show debris shtrewn for a wide area outside the footprint.

[chipmunk stew]

All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long.
It wasn't "cut". The towers were built up in sections (look at your picture again). You didn't think they used 415-meter lengths of steel, did you?

We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)
You seem to have a fairly good grasp of physics, but you need to hunker down and follow through. Since time is squared when you're dealing with acceleration, a few seconds ends up making a monumental difference, especially when you're dealing with masses as large as the WTC. Before you go any further, see if you can work out the ratio between energies of a mass falling 415 meters in 9.2 sec (time at free-fall) and one falling 415 meters in 14 sec (time at actual acceleration). The difference, you'll find, is quite large--sufficient to account for "lost" energy.

Another illustration to chew on: an object dropped from twice the height of the WTC would hit the ground only about 4 seconds after an object dropped from the top of the WTC.

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.
Drop it from how high? If I drop it from a plane, not only would it be obliterated into a fine powder, but also it would cause a massive earthquake, levelling other surrounding structures.

[CurtC]

The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent).Your analysis confuses force and energy, but I can figure out what you mean. I agree that some of the energy of the collapsing tower would be used to pulverize the concrete and to fling those beams outwards.

But you can also see that the avalanche of collapse falls slower than the debris that's free-falling, right? For your analysis to be taken seriously, you need to actually do the math and show how much energy pulverizing the concrete, and flinging out beams takes, then show that the amount the building is slowed is not consistent with that. If you can't do that, you're just spouting hot air.

[chipmunk stew]

Welcome Mutton-Head, I'm sure we all (especially the non-physics-experts) appreciate your detailed and hyperlink-free explanation. You have mixed up the concepts of force and energy pretty badly, but your point still works for me.

The above quote does not however. A 'few seconds' means a lot in freefall calculations. In this thread is has already been shown that the acceleration of the towers was only about 60-70% of freefall acceleration, even when using timings supplied by CT advocates. This means at least 30% of the potential energy of the tower was available for the destructive process you describe. That's A LOT.Aw man, Shrinker already supplied you with the answer, Mutton-Head. Anyway, I suggest you still crank through the calculations on your own--it's mind-boggling when you realize the magnitude of the dynamics involved in the collapses. Don't go looking for a pre-conceived answer, though. Be honest with your variables and constants.

[CurtC]

I'll admit I forgot that the sigs could be turned off.Not only can sigs be turned off, but to me, that's the only way to read these forums. Avatars too. It's just clutter that's not needed.

You can also turn off sigs and avatars at the LC forum, which is almost a necessity over there. I've also used the Adblock extension in Firefox to block all their damn smileys, which makes reading that forum much more tolerable.

By the way, I have not been banned from the LC Forum. I was suspended a couple of weeks ago because I questioned TheQuest's opinions on depleted uranium, then by the help of dubfan the suspension was rescinded, and so far I'm still posting.

[Belz...]

The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower.

So far so good. This means we don't need explosives...

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

Alarm bells start ringing.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

So many pretty words, and so little actual demonstration. You, of course, DO have the actual mathematical calculations used to reach this conclusion, don't you ?

Of course you don't.

Oh, and welcome, and such.

[Belz...]

Not only can sigs be turned off, but to me, that's the only way to read these forums. Avatars too. It's just clutter that's not needed.

Weakling. ;)

[chipmunk stew]

Reporting to base:

Like I said this is NOT the UN it is loose Change and if you are NOT one of us and are NOT interested in the movement and are Here for sport....time to go hit the road they are here for sport only. That is a key word , they are NOT here for truth and are NOT here to promote Loose Change matter a fact they think the Movie is SH**...WTF....

The trolls/shills/feds will come and the F*** you will come and that is to be expected we will deal with them, but be goddamned if we are going to let members from another board that supports, promotes, and distributes a HIT PIECE on Loose Change come on this board and try to make us look like fools and argue until we are blue in the face, they hate this Movie and It's maker, they think CT are clowns and will NEVER join our Cause they believe what the Boss told them and are having a good laugh at what we post and discuss over here. We believe that the Boss has LIED to us and Killed 3,000 Civilians for crying out loud they were Americans at that.. This is NOT a Joke or a game or for sport. They @ JREF have there bi***es that come over here and "report" back to base

This is NOT the UN...if that were the case....Hell you might as well give Gravy an account on this board (LC) and have him post up his HIT PIECE in the Skeptics Forum. That should go over real well with Dylan and the Members Here

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4948&view=findpost&p=4753002

Oh, he just cracks me up! I just love having a good laugh at his expense! ROFLMAO!!!

Long live Teh BOSS!!!

[Manny]

All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound.Below is a picture of one of the conspirators cutting the steel into those convenient sections. He's obviously a slacker, as he has waited until after the buildings collapsed to do his job.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Reporting to base:



http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4948&view=findpost&p=4753002

Oh, he just cracks me up! I just love having a good laugh at his expense! ROFLMAO!!!

Long live Teh BOSS!!!

Pet Peeve Rant Mode On

Killed 3,000 Civilians for crying out loud they were Americans at that..


Known country
Australia 3
Bermuda 1
Britain 1
Canada 5
China 2
Dominican Republic 1
El Salvador 1
England 11
Germany 6
Israel 1
Japan 3
Mexico 10
USA 2902

Known foreign citizenship
Australian 1
Belgian 1
Brazilian 3
British 67
Chinese 2
Colombian 17
Congonese 2
Ecuadorian 3
Filipino 15
French 1
German 5
Ghanaian 2
Guyanese 3
Haitian 2
Honduran 1
Indian 1
Indonesian1
Irish 1
Israeli 2
Italian 4
Ivory Coast 1
Jamaican 16
Japanese 23
Lebanese 3
Lithuania 1
Mexican 15
Moldavian 1
Nigerian 1
Peruvian 5
Portuguese 3
Russian 1
Swedish 1
Taiwanese 1
Ukrainian 1
Uzbek 1
Venezuelan 1

from http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm

9/11 affected the world, not just the US. And this brings up an additional gripe of mine. Why would it be, if the evidence points to this being a US gov't operation that _all_ of the above countries are not asking for Bush's head?

[chucksheen]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.

2 quick must see videos:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4837634583766795751
BetterBadNews.com

[chipmunk stew]

CurtC demonstrates that they can't even get their "smoking gun" right.

Even after watching WTC7 collapse "about a million times", Roxdog missed the fact that the east penthouse collapsed about five seconds before the rest of the building started to collapse:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4733&view=findpost&p=4750036

[bob_kark]

Below is a picture of one of the conspirators cutting the steel into those convenient sections. He's obviously a slacker, as he has waited until after the buildings collapsed to do his job.

This one made me chuckle. You can't trust those union guys.

[chipmunk stew]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.

Perhaps you can put a good word in for those of us who have been suspended:
Arkan_Wolfshade: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660156#post1660156
dubfan: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660169#post1660169
"stipmunk chew": http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660383#post1660383
Abbyas: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660943#post1660943

[Regnad Kcin]

Dear Conspiracy Theorist:

You are 100% wrong.

Love,

RKRk, this seems to be a damn poor way to welcome a new poster. Sure, he may have proven himself a nutter elsewhere, but I have not been "elsewhere" so have no preconceived notion; I suspect the same is true for most others on this forum. If he is "100% wrong" welcome him with open arms and let the facts fall where they may. Let the EVIDENCE prove him "100% wrong". Your "welcome" is anything but. Sure we're skeptics but let the sketicism work, not your harsh prejudgement.SezMe, perhaps you have not followed this thread and its peripherals as I have, and in addition conversed with numerous CTers, each of whom displays ignorance coupled with arrogance as if it were a bright shiny badge. You may also have also missed the set-up to my little note above, which might've helped you understand.

Still, I accept your criticism. Thanks.

[bob_kark]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.

This one made me chuckle too. How can you have a serious debate when disagreeing with forum members gets you banned?

[money]

Oh, leave him alone! He's only little - go pick on somebody your own size...

Anyway, welcome Chuck. In response to your challenge, how about you reading through every single post on this thread, then giving us your opinion?

No way that's going to happen... after all, Xraye is obviously still working on it...

edit- oops I see he already owned up to it ten posts ago!

[chipmunk stew]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.
If you want serious debaters over there, talk to jackchit:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660943#post1660943

Time to clean up.... and get rid of the smell.
I hold my hands up I'm the one who suspended the accounts as i could feel the frustration and anger towards the cretious thinkers from my friends on the board.
But hey you guys still have the jref forum to post your views and i'm sure if anyone is interested enough and has been swayed by the posts made here by the jref'ers they will be welcomed over there with open arms..

good luck guys, Jack

[Abbyas]

Perhaps you can put a good word in for those of us who have been suspended:
Arkan_Wolfshade: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...56#post1660156
dubfan: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...69#post1660169
"stipmunk chew": http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...83#post1660383
Abbyas: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...43#post1660943
__________________

How can I figure out why I was suspended? Or should I just not care.

[Abbyas]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.

Or feel free to start a new topic. Maybe one with a specific point that can be discussed.

[Regnad Kcin]

Any serious debaters should join the LooseChange911.com forums. Videos speak many words and there are WAY too many posts here for me to read and carry on with my business.

2 quick must see videos:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4837634583766795751
BetterBadNews.comNo, videos do not "speak many words." The eyes are often unreliable. (For examples of this, try clicking here (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/).)

Sir, this is a forum dedicated to critical thinking. While this particular thread may be of epic length, it contains countless answers to your questions. Should you actually be interested in considered analysis of this topic, it would seem a relatively small task to read it though, a bit at a time. You will likely be enlightened.

Welcome to the forum.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Or feel free to start a new topic. Maybe one with a specific point that can be discussed.

Indeed, the more narrow the topic of discussion the better. I would, hestitatingly, suggest that perhaps it should be in the Politics forum.

[Hellbound]

How can I figure out why I was suspended? Or should I just not care.

Check chipmunk's post right before yours.

Apparantly, you were all suspended because "it was upsetting to the Loosers" to have to actually present valid evidence and use logic.

When their points were proven wrong, and you didn't respond to their arguments of "Is too!", they banned you, so they could continue with "open" debate.

OW!!!

Sorry, I think I just sprained by brain trying to do the mental gymnastics that Loosers do.

[Trifikas]

A few things to consider that might help out, as well. I admit this is overly simplified, others can flesh it out / correct mistakes as needed.

Remember those "Newton's Cradel" desktop toys? the 5 metal balls suspended In a line, and when you pull one away, and let it go, it hit's the line and the ball on the opposite end gets sent away? (and note that it takes practicly NO time for that transfer of energy to take place) That's your conservation of momentum at work. If you pull two of the five balls back, and release them, two go flying off from the other side.

Now, the tricky part - Pull back 3 balls. Since you have to conserve the momentum, when they collide with the other two, those two balls plus 1 of the three that were pulled back continue on. The mass has to be equal for the momentum to be conserved.

What does this have to do with WTC? Well, as the floors above the crash site drop, they have momentum. They impart that momentum onto the floors they crash into, so what you have isn't so much a collapse but a pile-driver breaking the floors below. You have "X" number of floors hitting one floor, some of the energy is lost breaking stuff, and the ball at the end of the line (in this case, the floor at the top of the Stack) loses it's momentum, but the rest of the mass keeps moving, it doesn't "Stop at each floor" like we've seen on some posts.

You don't see the top of the stack flying off at each floor because it's still effected by gravity, and still somewhat connected to the rest of the stack. So continues to be dragged down with the rest of the pile.

Now, your thinking, "wait a minute..It doesn't hit one floor, it hits the entire remaining mass of the tower". Well...yes and no.

Ever see a martial arts demonstration where they break many boards at once? Notice that they don't just stack the boards on top of each other, they have small "Spacers", maybe half an inch thick, between the boards? That's so you don't have to break the strength of all 10 boards (or however many), you just need the force to break 1 board 10 times. Some momentum is lost at each board, but the martial artist is still using his muscles to Compensate.

The WTC Towers are like that - each floor is a board, and are connected to the outside walls, the central colum, and various interior walls and such that act as the spacers do, making it easier for the X-number-of-stories mass to break through each floor. Now instead of trying to break the entire 70-some odd floors remaining, it only needs to do it one floor at a time. While a mathmatical amount of momentum is lost in each colision, Gravity was still accelerating the mass. Also, with the exception of what is ejected from the collision, each floor colided with adds its mass to the force comming down. even if it's pulverized, it still has mass, wich adds to the force applied on the floor below it.


Hope that makes sense, any corrections that need to be made, let me know. like I said, it's somewhat (allright, a lot) simplified. But the idea should be pretty clear.

[chipmunk stew]

Check chipmunk's post right before yours.

Apparantly, you were all suspended because "it was upsetting to the Loosers" to have to actually present valid evidence and use logic.

When their points were proven wrong, and you didn't respond to their arguments of "Is too!", they banned you, so they could continue with "open" debate.

OW!!!

Sorry, I think I just sprained by brain trying to do the mental gymnastics that Loosers do.It looks like they're starting to weed out the Skeptics subforum so that eventually they'll only be left with token skeptics who are easier to beat up on.

[kookbreaker]

If you want serious debaters over there, talk to jackchit:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1660943#post1660943

Wow. Sniveling intellectual cowardice at its most loathsome best. Have fun building your little fortress of fortitude, Loosers.

[Abbyas]

Apparantly, you were all suspended because "it was upsetting to the Loosers" to have to actually present valid evidence and use logic.

I guess it's not surprising. Some (not all) of those who question the government detest it when they, themselves are questioned.

Also, considering all the times I was called "b-tch", "bloodthirsty racist", "shill", "pathetic", etc, etc by those who believe, I can completely understand their needing to be protected from me.

It's exciting, I've never been suspended from a forum before! I have decided to blame the Illuminati.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Pet Peeve Rant Mode On


Known country
Australia 3
Bermuda 1
Britain 1
Canada 5
China 2
Dominican Republic 1
El Salvador 1
England 11
Germany 6
Israel 1
Japan 3
Mexico 10
USA 2902

Known foreign citizenship
Australian 1
Belgian 1
Brazilian 3
British 67
Chinese 2
Colombian 17
Congonese 2
Ecuadorian 3
Filipino 15
French 1
German 5
Ghanaian 2
Guyanese 3
Haitian 2
Honduran 1
Indian 1
Indonesian1
Irish 1
Israeli 2
Italian 4
Ivory Coast 1
Jamaican 16
Japanese 23
Lebanese 3
Lithuania 1
Mexican 15
Moldavian 1
Nigerian 1
Peruvian 5
Portuguese 3
Russian 1
Swedish 1
Taiwanese 1
Ukrainian 1
Uzbek 1
Venezuelan 1

from http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm

9/11 affected the world, not just the US. And this brings up an additional gripe of mine. Why would it be, if the evidence points to this being a US gov't operation that _all_ of the above countries are not asking for Bush's head?

Your list is off by about 20 canadians: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sep11/cdncasualties.html

But you make an excellent point. Knocking over the two biggest office buildings in the financial district of the financial capital of the worlds strongest economy will kill people from all over the world. Osama Bin Laden, for all his moral failings, is not a stupid person. He undoubtedly knew this and just didn't care. This war is for all of us, american or not.

[chipmunk stew]

I guess it's not surprising. Some (not all) of those who question the government detest it when they, themselves are questioned.

Also, considering all the times I was called "b-tch", "bloodthirsty racist", "shill", "pathetic", etc, etc by those who believe, I can completely understand their needing to be protected from me.

It's exciting, I've never been suspended from a forum before! I have decided to blame the Illuminati.Wow! "Bloodthirsty racist"? I'm jealous. Do you have a link to that thread?

[Hellbound]

IIt's exciting, I've never been suspended from a forum before! I have decided to blame the Illuminati.

Hey, don't blame us! We had nothing to do with this one!!

Um, that is, if we existed we wwouldn't have had anything to...Um..

I mean, ah...if the Illuminati existed, they, ah, would have had nothing to do with this.

Yeah, that's it.

:D

[aggle-rithm]

It's exciting, I've never been suspended from a forum before! I have decided to blame the Illuminati.

Hey! We had nothing to do with it! ;)

ETA: Dang, too slow!

[chucksheen]

The writing is on the wall. The cat is out of the bag. :catfight:

If you can prove the pancake theory, Jimmy Walters will reward you with $1,000,000. ReOpen911.org.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs.

[kookbreaker]

Uh-oh! Double Illuminati claim posts!

[aggle-rithm]

Hey, don't blame us! We had nothing to do with this one!!

Um, that is, if we existed we wwouldn't have had anything to...Um..

I mean, ah...if the Illuminati existed, they, ah, would have had nothing to do with this.

Yeah, that's it.

:D

I've never seen you at the meetings!

Not that there ARE meetings....

[Hellbound]

I've never seen you at the meetings!

Not that there ARE meetings....

Wait, are you Illuminati People's Front? Or the People's Illuminati Front? Or the People's Front of Illuminati?

Please don't tell me you're part of that wussy Front of Illuminati Peoples!!!!

[kookbreaker]

The writing is on the wall. The cat is out of the bag. :catfight:


The pontoon is one the river..yadda.yadda.yadda.


If you can prove the pancake theory, Jimmy Walters will reward you with $1,000,000. ReOpen911.org.


No thanks. Like Ken Hovind's bogus 'challenge' I consider proving things to deliberately ignorant people with absurd standards to be a waste of time.


UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs.

Why are there so many lies on your source for truth?

[aggle-rithm]

Wait, are you Illuminati People's Front? Or the People's Illuminati Front? Or the People's Front of Illuminati?

Please don't tell me you're part of that wussy Front of Illuminati Peoples!!!!

The Illuminati Frontispiece. It's a splinter group.

[Kiwiwriter]

Welcome, Kiwiwriter. Your insights are very much appreciated here.

Happy to help out. As I say, after 25 years in journalism, growing up in a science-minded household, I have little tolerance for frauds, quacks, demented ideoogues, conspiracy theorists, and con men.

Most of my work in this field (which isn't much) actually deals with Holocaust deniers and their ilk, who share many of the character traits of the 9/11 whackos, down to the conspiracy theory claims...Holocaust deniers create a topsy-turvy world where a vast and unseen Jewish conspiracy has fabricated a Holocaust myth for various nefarious purposes, 9/11 nuts do the same thing with the attacks on America.

Both seem to be fueled heavily by anti-Semitism, as far as I can tell. It's interesting to see how web pages like iamthewitness.com, which is full of vicious anti-Semitic material, or Stormfront, blast the Jews and the events of 9/11. The general theory is that the Jews are behind it all.

I wrote a column about the "mythical Jewish conspiracy" at my web page at http://davidhlippman.wildbillguarnere.com which goes into this in more detail.

I sure wish there was one...it would make my life easier, as I wrote on the page.

Three questions for the veterans around here: how does the ranking system work, second, when can I put in a signature block and an avatar?

Third, my other favorite paranormal lunacies are psychic "predictions" and the Bermuda Triangle. I haven't heard much about the latter lately. Is there a thread about it on this site?

[Abbyas]

Wow! "Bloodthirsty racist"? I'm jealous. Do you have a link to that thread?

Would show you if I could, but I can't even read the thing. If I try, I get the suspended error message. But it was along the lines of Jennabel asking me to let go of my hate. Kind of a reverse Emperor Palpatine.

[Kiwiwriter]

Nice post, man. Welcome.

Thanks for that welcome. Interesting bunch of folks here. It's actually quite refreshing.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Would show you if I could, but I can't even read the thing. If I try, I get the suspended error message. But it was along the lines of Jennabel asking me to let go of my hate. Kind of a reverse Emperor Palpatine.

Delete the cookie from invisionfree.

[Kiwiwriter]

Loose change forum rectify. Milliplentyfy skeptic thoughtcrime. Rectify. Skeptic unperson. Minitrue forum plusgood Goodthink. Dylan Avery doubleplusgood!

Wow! You got it exactly! Winston