Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

[Christophera]

wow! I missed all that stuff about native american spirits and numbers and all that good stuff.

dude is crazy.

There is a big difference between ignorant and crazy.

[beachnut]

and you have them both down pat

[Alt+F4]

Again, you sound just like our moron president.

That's what confuses the CTers and gives them headaches. They think that people who don't believe in their conspiracy lunacy are all George Bush fans.

I stick pins in my George Bush doll daily. I want to punch him through the TV when he mispronounces nuclear. He's committed at least ten impeachable offenses, none of which involve a 9/11 conspiracy.

[Christophera]

and you have them both down pat

You are wrong because you haven't explained any event feasibly and realistically (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)as they actually happened.

[Powa]

Of course they could, but I'm not trying to harm them. Have you not been following the links maccy provided on the preceding page?

I understand them, that they are controlled by unreasonable fear which endangers their children as well as ours. I'm trying to help them to recover from the manipulations which have caused their fear.

You sound rather like "they" have appointed you.
By "they" I meant the "conspirators". I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

[beachnut]

fema core or the wrong core from the uk explains ignorant, you can find a different source or open your eye - prove you may lack the ability to think

due to the fact you could be crazy cause you keep pointing to this web site that is very poorly reseached, why?

What it the point of that web site?

Have to run five miles, see you later crazy core man of the truth cult

[Christophera]

fema core or the wrong core from the uk explains ignorant

Apparently you have not read what I say about the BBC core (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/images/_1540044_world_trade_structure300.gif) at the concrete core (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) page. Yamasaki rejected that design and went with a standard steel reinforced cast concrete tubular design (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG) with concrete shear wall (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif).

[delphi_ote]

That's what confuses the CTers and gives them headaches. They think that people who don't believe in their conspiracy lunacy are all George Bush fans.
I don't mean to make this about politics, but the other half of the insanity is that the Troofers are guilty of using the exact same rhetoric as the president. How can you hate someone so much and at the same time sound exactly like them? If Chris was talking about the "the truth" about the Iraq war instead of "the truth" about 9/11, it would be impossible for me to tell the difference between his posts and White House talking points.
They have to have information <about 9/11> that makes sense before their courage will awaken. It appears you do not want them to have that.
They have to have information <about the Iraq war> that makes sense before their courage will awaken. It appears you do not want them to have that.
Unsubstantiated andpolitical beliefs and condecending propaganda sound exactly the same no matter whose mouth they are coming out of.

[Christophera]

No is sufficient Chris.

Not for people who will not recognize the veracity of raw evidence.

[delphi_ote]

Not for people who will not recognize the veracity of raw evidence.
You don't cook your evidence? You know that might give you salmonella, right?

[Oliver]

Not for people who will not recognize the veracity of raw evidence.

What does veracity mean? Is it a town in concrete Lala-Land? :confused:

[Christophera]

Sorry.

Have you ever tried to defend common sense backed with quality evidence against overwhelming odds having no evidence?

We are trying and trying and trying. Thanks for asking, though...

I'm not at all omnipotent, I just have evidence (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) to work with whereas the large team of deniers have none.

[delphi_ote]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/face_of_sleeping_kitten.jpg
The time has come...

[Christophera]

Observe. Parts of the building fall onto WTC 3. No core is observable. Perhaps that is because the core would be in the centre of the building and not on the outside, if there was in fact a concrete core. Which there wasn't.

You cannot be serious. Do you see the grey brown block inside the perimeter box columns. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2coreonto3.gif) That IS the concrete core.

[delphi_ote]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/1280-BlueMosqueCat.jpg
No thread has ever needed this more...

We've gone round and round this subject for months now. Christopheria will always see what he wants to see. Let's have some fuzzy kittens instead.

[maccy]

A thought experiment.

You're standing in a field, looking at a cow.

A man comes up to you and tells you it's a rabbit.

How long do you argue with him about this, before just walking away and leaving him to his own devices?

Does it really matter if gets the last word? If he never changes his mind?

Also:

XgQx-ZYwHyA

[Bell]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/1280-BlueMosqueCat.jpg
No thread has ever needed this more...

We've gone round and round this subject for months now. Christopheria will always see what he wants to see. Let's have some fuzzy kittens instead.

Kittens rule the world :c1:

[defaultdotxbe]

Let's have some fuzzy kittens instead.
http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/6/66/Site1092.jpg

[Bell]

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/6/66/Site1092.jpg

I swear default has a load of pwetty pictures he is dying to post, he only needs the right post to reply to :)

[Christophera]

So you admit that we cannot see a concrete core in that photo?

Correct, it is up to 80 feet below the top floor. Most importantly is that no steel core columns are seen. the columns labeleed "MASSIVE BOX COLUMNS" (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/interiorboxcolumnsarrow.jpg) are the only columns even near the core and they are outside of the concrete acting to suppor the outer forms.

[Christophera]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/1280-BlueMosqueCat.jpg
No thread has ever needed this more...

We've gone round and round this subject for months now. Christopheria will always see what he wants to see. Let's have some fuzzy kittens instead.

That's the way real Americans do it. Nice, warm fuzzy feelings. Now go watch the news.

[Christophera]

That's because you ASSUME that there were cutting charges, an entirely circular line of reasoning.

On the left is a tempered steel column that was 1300 foot tall, continuous, butt welded.

Sheared & Torch Cut Columns (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc.box.shear.torch.gif)

You certainly have not provided and explanation. This does Cutting charges built into the floors (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383) does explain the cut columns and what is happening here. (http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0069b_3_towerexplo1_explosion_below.jpg)



None of which show concrete. You're saying that one shows box columns, and THEN we see rebar ?

Yes, the spire (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg) is an interio box column, not inside the core area, and the other is rebar (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg) which is center inside the concrete shear wall (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif). Four such walls comprise the tunular concrete core. (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

[stateofgrace]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/1280-BlueMosqueCat.jpg
No thread has ever needed this more...

We've gone round and round this subject for months now. Christopheria will always see what he wants to see. Let's have some fuzzy kittens instead.

I object to fuzzy kittens taking contol of this thread!! ( I have two cat and am only joking)

Although kittens are cute and cuddly I offer up one of my dogs in an attempt to turn this thread around.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/100_0085.jpg

[tsig]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/face_of_sleeping_kitten.jpg
The time has come...


Time and past time.

I have a 19 year old cat and she rules.

[delphi_ote]

Christopheria, you are repeating yourself. Either come up with a coherent argument or support your current hypothesis with evidence (I don't care if it's raw or cooked.) Until then, we will enjoy these soothing pictures of fuzzy animals...
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/5thGRRASweetDreams.jpg
This one has a little bit for the dog and kitten lovers.

[uruk]

For god's sakes. Is there anybody here who doesn't think this wack job is completly detached from reality?

He willfully ignores evidence presented to him. He relies on a Canadian high school website for support. He points to empty space and says there's a concrete wall there.



Oh BTW, theres a documentary on the History channel about the people who were trapped in the WTC elevators. It's called "Trapped in the towers".

[Christophera]

For god's sakes. Is there anybody here who doesn't think this wack job is completly detached from reality?

If the side of a tower blows out it is called premature explosion (http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0069b_3_towerexplo1_explosion_below.jpg) not "detached from reality". You are ignoring your responsibility.

He willfully ignores evidence presented to him.

I don't ignore what your term "evidence". I debunk your misrepresentations such as trying to term the elevator guide rail supports as "core columns. They are "MASSIVE BOX COLUMNS" (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/interiorboxcolumnsarrow.jpg) which only exist outside the core area.

He relies on a Canadian high school website for support. He points to empty space and says there's a concrete wall there.

What is empty about the space in the core area? (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

[stateofgrace]

Chris where is the concrete core?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/construction_1.jpg

[delphi_ote]

Chris where is the concrete core?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/30KittenFight.jpg

[Christophera]

Chris where is the concrete core?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/construction_1.jpg

The concrete is 1 or 2 floors below the top floor inside the interior box columns. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif)

[Horatius]

Chris where is the concrete core?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/30KittenFight.jpg

It might be in this shoe!

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/9490455687724e957.jpg

Or maybe this sink!

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904556878f8963d.jpg

Nope, no concrete cores, and no tasty mousies either, more's the pity!

Now I'm just annoyed at you.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904555496e8385d.jpg

[defaultdotxbe]

maybe its up this tree?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/things/dog.jpg

[Horatius]

Chris where is the concrete core?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/30KittenFight.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/949045568a8c60014.jpg

Found it!

[stateofgrace]

"Wait, ...............we see the concrete core"

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/100_0725.jpg

"Oh no, .............. we got locked up for seeing it."

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/100_0705.jpg

[Bell]

:beaver: :bunnyface :c1: :catface: :ferret: :fox: :kangaroo: :squirrel: :bearface: :dogt: :kiwibird: :lion: :monkey4: :mouse: :panda: :tiger:

and for old times sake...

:dl:

[orphia nay]

:bunpan

[orphia nay]

Bugger, I deployed the pancake bunny before remembering I had one question.

Does this (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG) look like a floor? Does it look like steel core columns?

Does it look like the steel column core with some gyprock walling remaining and a lot of dust?

[beachnut]

Bugger, I deployed the pancake bunny before remembering I had one question.

Bugger, I deployed the pancake bunny before remembering I had one question.

Originally Posted by Christophera http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2088343#post2088343)
Does this (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG) look like a floor? Does it look like steel core columns?
Does it look like the steel column core with some gyprock walling remaining and a lot of dust?

Does it look like the steel column core with some gyprock walling remaining and a lot of dust?

second that, score is now 2 to 1

[Garb]

The concrete is 1 or 2 floors below the top floor inside the interior box columns. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif)

Obviously you have contradicted yourself, because there must be concrete in that picture since it is the LOWEST FLOOR.

[defaultdotxbe]

Obviously you have contradicted yourself, because there must be concrete in that picture since it is the LOWEST FLOOR.
and chris has stated that they built the core up from street level, then built the exterior structure around and above it (why they reversed the build order is beyond me though)

[Bell]

and chris has stated that they built the core up from street level, then built the exterior structure around and above it (why they reversed the build order is beyond me though)

Nope, it's the other way around, actually. First the outside and the floors were build (attached to some... hell, I don't know, invicicore I guess) and the concrete core followed 7 floors behind the rest of the building.

[Garb]

Yamasaki and engineers John Skilling and Les Robertson worked closely, and the relationship between the towers' design and structure was clear. Faced with the difficulties of building to unprecedented heights, the engineers employed an innovative structural model: a rigid "hollow tube" of closely spaced steel columns with floor trusses extended across to a central core. The columns, finished with a silver-colored aluminum alloy, were 18 3/4" wide and set only 22" apart, making the towers appear from afar to have no windows at all.

http://www.skyscraper.org/TALLEST_TOWERS/t_wtc.htm

Is this a site bribed by the government?

[Christophera]

Does it look like the steel column core with some gyprock walling remaining and a lot of dust?

No way would gypsum or dry wall be there after hundreds of thousands of tons of steel crashed over it.

[Christophera]

http://www.skyscraper.org/TALLEST_TOWERS/t_wtc.htm

Is this a site bribed by the government?

Yes, probably created by the infiltrators, they do sloppy work. I have reason.

Yamasaki did not come in until Robertson had already designed the whole center in concept. Robertson brought Yamasaki in. All Yamasaki did was design the core and certify the building safe. Worthington, Skilling, Helle and Jackson were the conceptual architects and requested because they brought him in. Yamasaki did request Emery Roth & Sons finish engineering specs for construction of the floors but Yamasaki designed the steel reinforced concrete tube.

I have an incomplete set of plans from Skilling and Yamasakis name is on them but it is no more than a name at that point. He hadn't even tested and rejected the original steel core columns Robertson had concieved yet.

Construction of a world trade facility had been under consideration since the end of WWII. In the late 1950s the Port Authority took interest in the project and in 1962 fixed its site on the west side of Lower Manhattan on a superblock bounded by Vesey, Liberty, Church and West Streets. Architect Minoru Yamasaki was selected to design the project; architects Emery Roth & Sons handled production work, and, at the request of Yamasaki, the firm of Worthington, Skilling, Helle and Jackson served as engineers.

The Port Authority envisioned a project with a total of 10 million square feet of office space. To achieve this, Yamasaki considered more than a hundred different building configurations before settling on the concept of twin towers and three lower-rise structures. Designed to be very tall to maximize the area of the plaza, the towers were initially to rise to only 80-90 stories. Only later was it decided to construct them as the world's tallest buildings, following a suggestion said to have originated with the Port Authority's public relations staff.

Yamasaki and engineers John Skilling and Les Robertson worked closely, and the relationship between the towers' design and structure was clear. Faced with the difficulties of building to unprecedented heights, the engineers employed an innovative structural model: a rigid "hollow tube" of closely spaced steel columns with floor trusses extended across to a central core. The columns, finished with a silver-colored aluminum alloy, were 18 3/4" wide and set only 22" apart, making the towers appear from afar to have no windows at all.

[Garb]

Yes, probably created by the infiltrators, they do sloppy work. I have reason.

Yamasaki did not come in until Robertson had already designed the whole center in concept. Robertson brought Yamasaki in. All Yamasaki did was design the core and certify the building safe. Worthington, Skilling, Helle and Jackson were the conceptual architects and requested because they brought him in. Yamasaki did request Emery Roth & Sons finish engineering specs for construction of the floors but Yamasaki designed the steel reinforced concrete tube.

I have an incomplete set of plans from Skilling and Yamasakis name is on them but it is no more than a name at that point. He hadn't even tested and rejected the original steel core columns Robertson had concieved yet.

Source?

[delphi_ote]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/die.jpg
Please... think of the kittens!

[Christophera]

Obviously you have contradicted yourself, because there must be concrete in that picture since it is the LOWEST FLOOR.

Count again. The core begins 5 levels down. The first taller floor is the ground level. The next is the mezzanine. The top we see is the 3rd. So I might be wrong in that the core is right below the top level rather than 3 down but the mezzanine was taller so the height was almost equivalent to 2 floors for each, the ground and second.


http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4030&stc=1&d=1163311103

[Bell]

Count again. The core begins 5 levels down. The first taller floor is the ground level. The next is the mezzanine. The top we see is the 3rd. So I might be wrong in that the core is right below the top level rather than 3 down but the mezzanine was taller so the height was almost equivalent to 2 floors for each, the ground and second.


http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4030&stc=1&d=1163311103

:dl:

[Christophera]

Nope, it's the other way around, actually. First the outside and the floors were build (attached to some... hell, I don't know, invicicore I guess) and the concrete core followed 7 floors behind the rest of the building.

The documentary stated the bottom of the core needed to be constructed to get the elevator guide rail support steel lined up properly and then the building brought up around it.

This usenet comment confirms this.

"Tony Jebson" <jebbo@texas.net> wrote:

>......Apparently, the WTC towers had no internal
>structural columns but relied on the exterior structure for
>support / strength. No doubt the impact of an airplane does
>this no end of harm.
I worked in downtown NY in the late 1960's when the towers were
built! At lunch time we went to the construction site to watch the
progress. And we saw them first buildt an internal thick walled
rectangular concrete core inside which later the elevators ran. The
steel work was erected around this core several floors behind!

-=tom=-

Of course Tom couldn't see what was happening once the towers got over 5 floors or so and casting the concrete inside the interior box columns with them as support for the outer forms makes better sense.

I do feel that it was done differently for WTC 2 tho. WTC 2 went up much faster than did WTC 1. There was a major learning experience involved.

[Christophera]

Source?

Just the documentary. Not available, yet.

Got raw evidence of the steel core columns from the demo images? No.

The demo images clinch it. Forty seven 1300 foot columns would definitely be showing here (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg) if the spire is standing, which is outside the core area.

[Christophera]

"Wait, ...............we see the concrete core"

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/100_0725.jpg

"Oh no, .............. we got locked up for seeing it."

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/100_0705.jpg

Would it bother you more if somebody killed your puppies than your children?
I fail to see how this addresses the argument. Please refrain from this sort of thing.

[Garb]

Just the documentary. Not available, yet.

Got raw evidence of the steel core columns from the demo images? No.

The demo images clinch it. Forty seven 1300 foot columns would definitely be showing here (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg) if the spire is standing, which is outside the core area.

Raw evidence for concrete? No not pictures, I'm talking about actual peices of concrete. I mean, that is RAW evidence.

[Christophera]

Raw evidence for concrete? No not pictures, I'm talking about actual peices of concrete. I mean, that is RAW evidence.

Meaning you have no raw evidence of the 47 steel core columns FEMA says existed.

Plans denied to FEMA. NOTE:The site has the misrepresentation by FEMA wrong.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/blueprints.html

[Garb]

Meaning you have no raw evidence of the 47 steel core columns FEMA says existed.

I didn't say that, but if you say there are slabs of concrete around, you must have evidence of it.

[Christophera]

I didn't say that, but if you say there are slabs of concrete around, you must have evidence of it.

If you contend there were steel core columns then the demo images would show them to us. They do not. We instead see what can only be a concrete core (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

Yes, evidence of concrete,
Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg) masses of it.

[defaultdotxbe]

Meaning you have no raw evidence of the 47 steel core columns FEMA says existed.

what are those on the right side of this picture?

[Christophera]

what are those on the right side of this picture?

Those are interior box columns that have all been cut into equal lengths with nice square ends.

How did they get cut like that (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383) when they were originally 1300 foot long, 100% butt welded to be continous?

Tempered steel will snap befor it bends past a point. Do you know what that looks like?

[Architect]

I think that Chris has found the documentary, but ain't posting it because it doesn't back up his case. Doubtless he'll claim that it's been doctored

[maccy]

I didn't say that, but if you say there are slabs of concrete around, you must have evidence of it.

I hope that Chris' inability to change his mind in the face of evidence, or provide any of his own, isn't too vexing for you. If you're enjoying arguing with somebody who cannot argue and can only repeat their crazy unconvincing theory (very probably beause they are metally ill, and in way that is possibly made worse by confrontation and argument) then knock yourself out.

Personally, I think it is akin to asking to visit a lunatic asylum so you can argue with the paranoid delusions of the patients, but you don't have to accept my take on it.

If Chris' stubborness is getting to you, however, if you feel compelled to keep trying to change him, to make him see reason; if you're not enjoying the simple mental exercises of presenting evidence and of refuting his; if, indeed, you're doing this through gritted teeth, determined to win the argument or have the last word; then, for your own sake, I suggest relaxing and letting the whole thing go. Chris is not going to be convinced and is in no danger of convincing anybody else. Kick back, post some furry animals, post some recipes even. Or post in some of the other threads on this board.

I'm wondering if we can muster the collective discipline to stop posting in this thread alltogether before its 6-month anniversary (25th November). If Chris is the only person posting, I wonder how long it will continue.

Lastly, If you're not convinced about Chris' metal state, I suggest you take a quick look here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68391

[stateofgrace]

Would it bother you more if somebody killed your puppies than your children?

I have reported this offensive and inappropriate question directed towards my children.

[Garb]

If you contend there were steel core columns then the demo images would show them to us. They do not. We instead see what can only be a concrete core (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

Yes, evidence of concrete,
Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg) masses of it.

That wasn't the evidence I was looking for, but who am I to ask you for actual RAW evidence?

[defaultdotxbe]

Nope, it's the other way around, actually. First the outside and the floors were build (attached to some... hell, I don't know, invicicore I guess) and the concrete core followed 7 floors behind the rest of the building.
yeah,f ro the bulk of the building, but somehwere chris stated the core was built up a few stories from street level, THEN the built the surounding structure and passed the core

this was in response to a NY saying he remembered seeing the a huge concrete core, of course the only way chris could use this anecdotal evidence would be if he invisioned the core being visible outside the floor structures for some amount of time

[defaultdotxbe]

Those are interior box columns that have all been cut into equal lengths with nice square ends.

How did they get cut like that (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383) when they were originally 1300 foot long, 100% butt welded to be continous?

Tempered steel will snap befor it bends past a point. Do you know what that looks like?
could you tell the class how you are capable of seeing what the ends of those columns look like from that picture?

[Bell]

yeah,f ro the bulk of the building, but somehwere chris stated the core was built up a few stories from street level, THEN the built the surounding structure and passed the core

this was in response to a NY saying he remembered seeing the a huge concrete core, of course the only way chris could use this anecdotal evidence would be if he invisioned the core being visible outside the floor structures for some amount of time

He's making it up as he goes, isn't he?

[Christophera]

That wasn't the evidence I was looking for, but who am I to ask you for actual RAW evidence?

Predictable response, ............ because you have no raw evidence for the supposed steel core columns.

If you do not utilize existing evidence and insist on non existent evidence for analysis you are being unreasonably selective.

[Christophera]

I have reported this offensive and inappropriate question directed towards my children.

A lot of people lost children and fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters and husbands and wives and uncles and aunts and grandmothers and grandfathers and nieces and nephews on 9-11.

You mock their grief when posting pictures of puppies to mock my efforts to find justice and protect you children.

You endanger your own children becuase you KNOW laws were violated in the investigation of 9-11 by our infiltrated government with regard to the investigations of 9-11.

You may not know that what I allege here,

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Is correct, ....... but ............you know due process was violated in 3000 capitol crimes.

[Christophera]

could you tell the class how you are capable of seeing what the ends of those columns look like from that picture?

Apparently you do not know what broken tempered steel looks like. It would never have the obviously square cut ends consistently seen in the aerial.

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4032&d=1163315538

[defaultdotxbe]

Apparently you do not know what broken tempered steel looks like. It would never have the obviously square cut ends consistently seen in the aerial.

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4032&d=1163315538
you say the ends were welded, how can you tell a broken weld from a cut column in this picture?

[uruk]

I guess Giggles keeps forgetting these images. He seems to do that quite abit. But then you'd have to in order to keep hanging on to a delusion.

[uruk]

Apparently you do not know what broken tempered steel looks like. It would never have the obviously square cut ends consistently seen in the aerial.

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4032&d=1163315538

I see different lengths in that picture. You don't see it? Oh, that's right, You can't judge size and distance very well.

100% butt welded? What are those brackets on the ends of the columns in the picture I posted abouve?

[maccy]

I still don't know why you guys are trying to argue with the crazy guy who says that a cow is a rabbit.

Edited to add:

Since my post caused the page to roll over to 184, here's my first cut 'n' paste post:

OK I'm posting this once on every new page to ask people to stop responding to Christophera.

I think you're wasting your own time and not helping Chris' mental health.

The reason I'm posting this is that people just arriving may not have read the whole thread and so not realised how Chris' argument never changes, even over the course of nearly 6 months of refutation.

They may also not be aware of the evidence that Chris may well have a serious mental illness http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2087895#post2087895

I'm not going to argue any more, this post is a cut and paste job to stop the information from disappearing.

If anybody wants to know more about what I think, you can read my previous posts in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2089906#post2089906
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2088820#post2088820
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2087907#post2087907
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2086719#post2086719
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2085889#post2085889
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2085568#post2085568
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2084988#post2084988

[Powa]

............you know due process was violated in 3000 capitol crimes.
Capitol crimes? Whazzat?

[stateofgrace]

A lot of people lost children and fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters and husbands and wives and uncles and aunts and grandmothers and grandfathers and nieces and nephews on 9-11.

You mock their grief when posting pictures of puppies to mock my efforts to find justice and protect you children.

You endanger your own children becuase you KNOW laws were violated in the investigation of 9-11 by our infiltrated government with regard to the investigations of 9-11.

You may not know that what I allege here,

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Is correct, ....... but ............you know due process was violated in 3000 capitol crimes.

I mock you and have never mocked this event nor the grief of anybody.

You do represent nor speak for the victims of 911 nor their families. Save your pathetic lecture about your righteous efforts to protect my children.

You are not a hero out for justice; you are a seriously sick individual that is in desperate need of medical attention. Go get it.

The End.

[Bell]

Capitol crimes? Whazzat?

Members of gummit robbing gasstations?

[Christophera]

I mock you and have never mocked this event nor the grief of anybody.

You do represent nor speak for the victims of 911 nor their families. Save your pathetic lecture about your righteous efforts to protect my children.

You are not a hero out for justice; you are a seriously sick individual that is in desperate need of medical attention. Go get it.

The End.

And you have no evidence of anything. Only opinion while due process WAS violated in 3000 capitol crimes.

[Bell]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Socks_cat_1.JPG

[defaultdotxbe]

And you have no evidence of anything. Only opinion while due process WAS violated in 3000 capitol crimes.
and most CTers would have due process violated in order to arrest, charge and punish government officials for these capitAl crimes of yours

[rwguinn]

why in the name of bog would anyone use Tempered Steel on a building? Imagine the expense?
and, once you weld on it, you are back to the annealed condition around the weld.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...
And Chris--"Yoy are the weakest link!"

[Horatius]

If you contend there were steel core columns then the demo images would show them to us. They do not. We instead see what can only be a concrete core (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG)

Yes, evidence of concrete,
Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg) masses of it.

So, now we have TS saying these photos don't show any evidence of concrete, and Christophera saying they do.

Why don't we all just back out of this thread, and let them fight it out? We can come in and mop up after......

Oh, I almost forgot:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904557a151eaf2f.jpg

[Smiffy]

Chris, I have reason to believe that you are indeed part of this diabolical conspiracy. Quite simply you have been hypnotised so that you will energetically propagate an elaborate concrete core/wrong towers/mohawk theory. Ingenious, as it diverts and exhausts rational and intelligent minds from the real scheme. One hypnotised individual is clearly a great resource, evidenced by the enormity of this thread. Alas my dear Chris, you mean well but ironically you are undermining the cause you claim to support.

[Oliver]

Ooops...Sorry, WRONG THREAD!

[Horatius]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Socks_cat_1.JPG

Is that Socks, the First Cat? I always liked him!

[Garb]

Predictable response, ............ because you have no raw evidence for the supposed steel core columns.

If you do not utilize existing evidence and insist on non existent evidence for analysis you are being unreasonably selective.

The irony is crushing me guys...

[Bell]

Is that Socks, the First Cat? I always liked him!

Yep, that's Socks allright.
And here is a kitten:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Youngkitten.JPG/800px-Youngkitten.JPG

[defaultdotxbe]

Yep, that's Socks allright.
And here is a kitten:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Youngkitten.JPG/800px-Youngkitten.JPG
http://www.tynia.com/gallery2/kitten_in_glass.jpg

[Bell]

http://www.tynia.com/gallery2/kitten_in_glass.jpg

lol poor kitten. Is it drunk yet?

Remember kids, don't try this at home:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Cat_washing_mashing.jpg/450px-Cat_washing_mashing.jpg

[delphi_ote]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/cat_driving.jpg
There's nothing left to see in this thread. Take us home, kitty!

[Bell]

Those are nice cats... for me to POOP ON!

http://www.comedycentral.com/images/events/nycomedy/nycf_m4_triumph.jpg

[Christophera]

why in the name of bog would anyone use Tempered Steel on a building? Imagine the expense?
and, once you weld on it, you are back to the annealed condition around the weld.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...
And Chris--"Yoy are the weakest link!"

Tempered steel was used for strength, as it always is. The butt welled joints were staggered so the overall strength was basically uneffected by the de-tempering at the weld joints. Not the same as annealing when talking about hight carbon steel.

Not only were the interior box columns tempered but the perimeter columns were as well.

You realize these were the tallest buildings in the world at the time.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3DDraft.pdf

The chemistry of N99-C3M-FR-1 is also consistent with the Yawata Fy=65 ksi specification, Table 3–6,
which contemporaneous construction documents denote as WEL-TEN 60R. According to these
documents, this was the highest strength hot-rolled grade, and it was only used at thicknesses up to 0.5 in.
Thicker plates required the quenched and tempered WEL-TEN 60. The hot-rolled WEL-TEN 60R is
alloyed with V instead of Nb, and has added Cr.

[Christophera]

The irony is crushing me guys...

Yes, ironic. You think you are doing something patriotic by supporting the official story but you are ignoring evidence proving what I say and disproving what you say seriously compromising the fundamental principles of the Constitution.

[Horatius]

I could sic my attack cat on him....

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904557a77ad0777.jpg

[defaultdotxbe]

http://www.stuffonmycat.com/media/2/20060924-ABIGAIL.jpg

[Horatius]

compromising the fundamental principles of the Constitution.



Compromising the fundamental principles of the Constitution? WHERE?!?!?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904557a77a8d198.jpg

[stateofgrace]

I think this mammoth thread should end on a high, with pictures of happiness.

http://www.the-cats-meow.com/images/smile1.jpg

[Z]

Instead of wasting time with low-quality websites and posts to unimportant internet fora, why isn't Chris doing something with all this evidence he has?

Oh, wait - I know why.

He supports our Masters, and truly doesn't seek to rock the boat.

Chris - your crap website and your inane posts here do nothing. They evoke no change, no thought, no action. So what are you going to do? Anything? Anything at all? Sue someone? Press charges?

Nope.

You're gonna piss and moan like an impotent jerk, and in five years, none of us will even remember your name.

Later!

[Horatius]

I think this mammoth thread should end on a high, with pictures of happiness.

http://www.the-cats-meow.com/images/smile1.jpg

Sorry just had to quote that. That is one happy cat, all right!

[twinstead]

Sorry just had to quote that. That is one happy cat, all right!

Looks like me on a payday Saturday night about 1am....

[Bell]

This is NOT a happy cat...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Catskull.jpg/758px-Catskull.jpg

[tsig]

I think this mammoth thread should end on a high, with pictures of happiness.

http://www.the-cats-meow.com/images/smile1.jpg

My wife thinks that was photoshoped. If so very good job, if not ditto.

[tsig]

This is NOT a happy cat...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Catskull.jpg/758px-Catskull.jpg

So you're claiming you know the state of this cat's soul!!

[Oliver]

Chris Alfred´s Cat:

http://www.techimo.com/photo/data/500/medium/1116cat.jpg

http://alf.nonsence.de/cats/001.jpg

[Oliver]

His Car:

http://perso.orange.fr/leplusbeauchatdumonde/whymper/mediatheque/theme/funny-cat-car-mobile.jpg

[Bell]

So you're claiming you know the state of this cat's soul!!

I'm a cat whiskperer.

[Christophera]

inane posts here do nothing!

No sheet sherlock.

Consider that you are actually reacting to the fear of realization that you cannot reasonably prevail in logical debate with me.

I've shown that what you call evidence is really outright fraud or misinterpretation. On the other hand when I post a quality piece of evidence which shows concrete, (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif) you have no reasonable alternative suggestion of what it is if it is not concrete. All of it dsiproving the dispicable lie you so often fail to mention or support. Then, to escape you all collusively work to obsufucate the raw evidence when you cannot perform reasonably.

Sort of a lord of the flies syndrome where your inner children are raging because you cannot continue your comfortable ignorance any longer without having my factual invasions occur which compels cognitive dissonance making you uncomfortable so you collectively work to destroy that which you object to.

Since I won't stop, you have to do something to continue with the dissociation.

[jsfisher]

Consider that you are actually reacting to the fear of realization that you cannot reasonably prevail in logical debate with me.
Just out of curiosity, Chris, in any of the court proceedings with which you have been involved, has your mental stability ever been brought into question? Perhaps during either a divorce or child custody hearing, maybe? C'mon, now, be honest.

[beachnut]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/124474557d81fec0e0.jpg

[delphi_ote]

Consider that you are actually reacting to the fear of realization that you cannot reasonably prevail in logical debate with me.
You're precisely correct.
Nothing will convince me otherwise.
Since we'll never get anywhere by your own admission, here's a kitten scaling a wall!
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/normal_ninjakitten.jpg

[hellaeon]

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/09/ani_wombat_gallery__550x393.jpg

[Garb]

Yes, ironic. You think you are doing something patriotic by supporting the official story but you are ignoring evidence proving what I say and disproving what you say seriously compromising the fundamental principles of the Constitution.

I never said I was patriotic, lol.

[Z]

Consider that you are actually reacting to the fear of realization that you cannot reasonably prevail in logical debate with me.

You're right - I refuse to have a battle of the wits with an unarmed man.

[Horatius]

You guys keep forgetting the Cat Pictures.

Here's an extra one you might recognize....

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/94904557a6fddb617.jpg

[tsig]

You're precisely correct.

Since we'll never get anywhere by your own admission, here's a kitten scaling a wall!
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/normal_ninjakitten.jpg

I saw 3" rebar on 4' centers, just look to the right and the case is priven.

[Horatius]

Since we'll never get anywhere by your own admission, here's a kitten scaling a wall!
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/normal_ninjakitten.jpg

The real question is, why did he want that candle snuffer, and did he manage to get it?

[Christophera]

Just out of curiosity, Chris, in any of the court proceedings with which you have been involved, has your mental stability ever been brought into question? Perhaps during either a divorce or child custody hearing, maybe? C'mon, now, be honest.

No. They would like to tho but do not try because they end up appearing as criminals or grossly negligent. Once again, I have all the evidence. Consider it is similar to how you might feel if you were any knd of authority after all the unreasonable denial put forth here with the reasonable evidence I've produced here. Don't try and deny it, that is why you keep coming back. Your continued presense proves it. Even your own object.

I understand however. They cannot and you cannot because of a fear deeply lodged in your unconscious, so there really is no blame. It is just a bad thing that happened that needs to stop happening and it will only do so with understanding.

At the bottom I have in writing that the mental health department will not go 1,000 feet to examine arrest and bookings showing over 1,000 arrests for crimes of insanity. The same arrest and booking records the custodian of records failed to apperance with on subpoena (http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/images/subden.gif) after the county counsel interfered with appearance of witness.
I was trying to warn the local authority and prevent insane murders. I have done many other things in effort to protect life in official offices.

Following this there was the case of David Attias who ran over 4 college students in Isla Vista at 65 mph in his saab. His daddy was the producer of Amy McBeal. So we can see how media has been infiltrated. Try and get to the Amicus Curiae I filed to see how badly those involved do not want to know how they were involved.

http://truthasaur.com/local/secretcity25.html

Check out the bank robber story.

Then, just this February 1, 2006, the postal shootings occured. The indigenous people have known about this potential for hundreds of years that the US courts, controlled by religion will not acknowledge. We suffer.

http://truthasaur.com/local/secretcity48.html

These are just a few of the horrible things that have happened because of the denial. 9-11 is the worst, except for the wars that were created with it. How will you suffer by understanding? How will you suffer by not understanding?

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4057&stc=1&d=1163392662

[orphia nay]

I took this while the car was actually moving - meet Spod the wonder-dog:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/48844557f2bc1aa98.bmp

He'd been balancing there for a while as we drove through a bumpy paddock, and several seconds after I took the pic, we went over a large bump and he fell down - luckily inside the car.

[jsfisher]

I think this says it all:
The unconscious mind is in control of neurological functions. Instructions to have spasms or make other seemingly uncontrolled movements can be put into the same area of the mind that controls all neurological function. We know that we are totally unaware of any of the synaptic signals that control our motor functions. The post hypnotic instructions to act are in the same place of the mind making it so we will never know why we are doing what we are doing.

Source: http://truthasaur.com/local/secretcity25.html

[tsig]

I took this while the car was actually moving - meet Spod the wonder-dog:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/48844557f2bc1aa98.bmp

He'd been balancing there for a while as we drove through a bumpy paddock, and several seconds after I took the pic, we went over a large bump and he fell down - luckily inside the car.
sftey first

[jsfisher]

I took this while the car was actually moving - meet Spod the wonder-dog:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/48844557f2bc1aa98.bmp

He'd been balancing there for a while as we drove through a bumpy paddock, and several seconds after I took the pic, we went over a large bump and he fell down - luckily inside the car.
It's no wonder you hit a bump. Your steering wheel seems to have been installed on the wrong side of the car.

[Christophera]

It's no wonder you hit a bump. Your steering wheel seems to have been installed on the wrong side of the car.

Definately, but spods neurological functions seem to know where the ballast is so when the bumps get rad, he falls inside.

[tsig]

It's no wonder you hit a bump. Your steering wheel seems to have been installed on the wrong side of the car.

Looks like a concrete core.

[tsig]

Definately, but spods neurological functions seem to know where the ballast is so when the bumps get rad, he falls inside.

It alwys happens taht way!

Inside is werw it bis

[orphia nay]

Definately, but spods neurological functions seem to know where the ballast is so when the bumps get rad, he falls inside.

You know, I think I actually agree with the general premise of that statement.

Chris, have you looked at the voting in my poll?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68391

No-one voted that you should back down from your concrete core assertion, but the majority of the 63 voters (42.86% at last count) would respect you if you did.

How many friends or viewers of your website have told you they agree with your belief in a concrete core?

[delphi_ote]

The real question is, why did he want that candle snuffer, and did he manage to get it?
Like the rest of us JREF ninjas, the kitty wanted to snuff out The Truth(tm)!

Hmm... maybe the concrete cores are in here?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/My_cat_and_her_toilet_by_MajikkuSak.jpg
Nope.

[maccy]

I think the cute animals are winning the day, but just in case anybody's popped in and feels like arguing the toss with our beloved Chris:

OK I'm posting this once on every new page to ask people to not respond to Christophera.

I think you're wasting your own time and not helping Chris' mental health.

The reason I'm posting this is that people just arriving may not have read the whole thread and so not realised how Chris' argument never changes, even over the course of nearly 6 months of refutation.

They may also not be aware of the evidence that Chris may well have a serious mental illness http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2087895#post2087895

Confronting people with mental health issues can often confirm them in their delusions and possibly make them worse, therefore it's probably better not to respond.

I'm not going to argue any more, this post is a cut and paste job to stop the information from disappearing.

If anybody wants to know more about what I think, you can read my previous posts in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2089906#post2089906
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2088820#post2088820
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2087907#post2087907
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2086719#post2086719
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2085889#post2085889
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2085568#post2085568
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2084988#post2084988

[skeptifem]

aaaw! those pictures make me miss my pets. :(

I always wished that I could have a squirrel. those are some really cute animals.


the concrete core arrows were gold tho, lol! 4chan material almost.

[tsig]

aaaw! those pictures make me miss my pets. :(

I always wished that I could have a squirrel. those are some really cute animals.


the concrete core arrows were gold tho, lol! 4chan material almost.

sqirirrrls are rats. we harv a grey and a red that drinks at our fountain.

I feel sorrry for the animals.

[Christophera]

You know, I think I actually agree with the general premise of that statement.

Chris, have you looked at the voting in my poll?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68391

No-one voted that you should back down from your concrete core assertion, but the majority of the 63 voters (42.86% at last count) would respect you if you did.

How many friends or viewers of your website have told you they agree with your belief in a concrete core?

Probably only 20% of my friends or viewers doubt that the core was concrete or that the demolition was conducted as I've put forth.

What happened can only happen in a very limited number of ways.

I've recieved a number of comments from professionals in construction, demolition and the engineering field that see the explanation as the only one which fits the event.

Here is one of the best,


deception achieved

Awesome work, very well presented with great links. I am a demolition contractor for 30 years and it all fits and always believed this was the case.Now there needs to be the rest of the story.

[orphia nay]

20% of how many?

[delphi_ote]

deception achieved

Awesome work, very well presented with great links. I am a demolition contractor for 30 years and it all fits and always believed this was the case.Now there needs to be the rest of the story.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/cat.jpg

[maccy]

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/cats/batcountry3tv.jpg

With thanks to Bronze Dog (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=4502) who has initiated kittens in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2091660#post2091660) and pointed to a handy repository here (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/cats/cats.htm).

[defaultdotxbe]

i found the core!!! 4 of them!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/20061025-SOPHIE.jpg

[Christophera]

20% of how many?

Probably about 300 people. The image of the WTC 2 (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG) core is what makes it certain for them. They all realize that steel core columns would be protruding if they existed.

The other aspect is all the concrete particualte and the uniformity (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg) of 2 towers going to the ground at near free fall.

from reactions an boards where truth seekers gather its quite clear that the only opposition are disinformationalists who have no evidence and no support except from their own ranks. The rest are suddenly confronted with the fear of knowing the truth and the decision of whether to show they know it and confront the fear. Many truth seekers feel safe discussing nonsense, when it comes to discussing methods which actually are feasible and coprehensive to the event, most withdraw from the public area.

This is why most of what is though of as serious discussion about the actual methods of demo occurs on mailing lists. In reality those are festering pits of disinformation which is conducted outside the public view. I abhor them.

We need to publically create demonstrations of unreasonable, illogical behaviors which by default show that there is no real opposition to the evidence and it's logical uses. So you folks re doing a great job.

Got evidence of steel core columns in the core area at some elevation above the ground fro the raw images of the demolition?

[orphia nay]

So 60 people out of all your friends plus the whole WWW?

Whereas now at least 31 of 65 people just at this forum would respect you if you admitted you are wrong. Probably more - I blame Planet X.

Please read Kopji's post in the poll thread, Chris.

There are plenty of people here to help you through this.

I bet even Belz and Oliver, (who have been arguing over you like husband and wife trying to work out the best treatment for their ill child) would not laugh at you for admitting you made a mistake. OK, maybe out of relief.

[stateofgrace]

More happy cats

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/1010.jpg

[Garb]

No. They would like to tho but do not try because they end up appearing as criminals or grossly negligent. Once again, I have all the evidence. Consider it is similar to how you might feel if you were any knd of authority after all the unreasonable denial put forth here with the reasonable evidence I've produced here. Don't try and deny it, that is why you keep coming back. Your continued presense proves it. Even your own object.

I understand however. They cannot and you cannot because of a fear deeply lodged in your unconscious, so there really is no blame. It is just a bad thing that happened that needs to stop happening and it will only do so with understanding.

At the bottom I have in writing that the mental health department will not go 1,000 feet to examine arrest and bookings showing over 1,000 arrests for crimes of insanity. The same arrest and booking records the custodian of records failed to apperance with on subpoena (http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/images/subden.gif) after the county counsel interfered with appearance of witness.
I was trying to warn the local authority and prevent insane murders. I have done many other things in effort to protect life in official offices.

Following this there was the case of David Attias who ran over 4 college students in Isla Vista at 65 mph in his saab. His daddy was the producer of Amy McBeal. So we can see how media has been infiltrated. Try and get to the Amicus Curiae I filed to see how badly those involved do not want to know how they were involved.

http://truthasaur.com/local/secretcity25.html

Check out the bank robber story.

Then, just this February 1, 2006, the postal shootings occured. The indigenous people have known about this potential for hundreds of years that the US courts, controlled by religion will not acknowledge. We suffer.

http://truthasaur.com/local/secretcity48.html

These are just a few of the horrible things that have happened because of the denial. 9-11 is the worst, except for the wars that were created with it. How will you suffer by understanding? How will you suffer by not understanding?

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4057&stc=1&d=1163392662

Am I the only one having trouble understanding this guy? :confused:

[Garb]

I've recieved a number of comments from professionals in construction, demolition and the engineering field that see the explanation as the only one which fits the event.

Here is one of the best,


deception achieved

Awesome work, very well presented with great links. I am a demolition contractor for 30 years and it all fits and always believed this was the case.Now there needs to be the rest of the story.

Now THAT is a reliable source!!!

[Horatius]

i found the core!!! 4 of them!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/20061025-SOPHIE.jpg

I'm sorry, but those are obviously CardBoard Cores with 3'' Cat reinforcing on 4 of his feet centers. A radical design the Japanese used in the first HelloKitty Factory, that was discontinued after the entire buildng tried to climb its own curtains. Truly a tragic day.......

[Bell]

More cats in cars...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Chaton_Linus.jpg/800px-Chaton_Linus.jpg

... and a cat inspecting the 3" rebar on 4' centers...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Felis_silvestris_catus_%28kitten_in_cage%29.jpg/600px-Felis_silvestris_catus_%28kitten_in_cage%29.jpg

[Mancman]

Probably about 300 people. The image of the WTC 2 (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG) core is what makes it certain for them. They all realize that steel core columns would be protruding if they existed.


What about your single row of 'interior box columns'. Why aren't they protruding? :confused:

[delphi_ote]

More cats in cars...
The first apparently has a taste for old SAABs.

[NickUK]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/11019455868b5a176f.jpg

[Oliver]

http://dessent.net/tmp/fluffy.jpg

[Belz...]

Or there is the aerial photo which shows the interior box columns ringing the core, but none of the same large columns inside the core, where some pitifully duped german says, "Look at the core columns". When really the image shows elevator guide rail supports.

If there's no concrete to be seen, how can you know what's "outside" the core and "inside" the core and make that kind of distinction ?

Their favorite is the interior box column laying on the ground with floor beams conneted to it getting scrapped out where they say, "Look at the core columns"

Pray tell, what's the visual difference between the two ?

There is nothing to offer. No alternatives that are reasonable and logical.

Unless you are completely wrong about the whole thing.

We have 2 interior box columns on the left with torch cut ends and some men working with a salvage lance on the right. Note the cut on the end of the piece they work on is way smotter than any torch cut.

No, you really can't tell from that distance. Plus it's been explained to you that cutting charges don't produce anything that smooth.

Because of me and the fact that I actually have evidence and I have a website that does provide a comprehensive explanation speculation for this event.

Fixed it.

The official story is so incredible that many people just divorce themselves from any responsibility to thinking about it at all and have just gone on with their lives.

The official story is incredible ?

More incredible than a thousand-year old, shadowy organisation using mass hypnosis to control the world and who built the WTC 30 years ago with concrete that no one but you has ever seen and specially rigged for demolition decades later in a plan to control oil... ?

[maccy]

If there's no concrete to be seen, how can you know what's "outside" the core and "inside" the core and make that kind of distinction ?

<usual refutations snipped>

The official story is incredible ?

More incredible than a thousand-year old, shadowy organisation using mass hypnosis to control the world and who built the WTC 30 years ago with concrete that no one but you has ever seen and specially rigged for demolition decades later in a plan to control oil... ?

We almost went a whole page without anybody seriously trying to argue with Chris...

You realise he's going to come back at you with the same stuff again don't you?

Seriously, post a kitten, it's more fun.

[Belz...]

Do you realize how much credibility assasination would bring? You are naive.

And there we have it.

"You are naive. I KNOW the truth". Makes you feel special, doesn't it chris ?

That IS the concrete core.

Or dust. Your own admission.

You certainly have not provided and explanation. This does Cutting charges built into the floors does explain the cut columns and what is happening here.

Other people have, you just refused to listen. Cutting charges do not produce such a clean cut.

Yes, the spire is an interio box column, not inside the core area, and the other is rebar which is center inside the concrete shear wall. Four such walls comprise the tunular concrete core.

So, basically, what you're saying is that the rebar was sturdier than the concrete AND the columns and stood longer than the whole of the building ?

Some rebar.

[maccy]

I know I said I'd stop arguing about this. But, Belz, consider this:

A thought experiment.

You're standing in a field, looking at a cow.

A man comes up to you and tells you it's a rabbit.

How long do you argue with him about this, before just walking away and leaving him to his own devices?

Does it really matter if gets the last word? If he never changes his mind?

Also:

XgQx-ZYwHyA

[uruk]

Probably only 20% of my friends or viewers doubt that the core was concrete or that the demolition was conducted as I've put forth.


The other 80% probably just agree with you to keep you from wigging out or don't know or care about what your talking about.
If you get a chance read this:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2092408&postcount=30

[uruk]

Just in case Chris is too lazy:

Originally Posted by Christophera
You have changed the text of the page. Misrepresenting what I'm doing which is trying to save lives.

Well, your not going to save lives by posting a website.


:
I've lost 5 friends to suicide in 7 years and 2 to drugs and alcohol. The mother of an 18 year old next door who has herself a 6 month old baby was found decomposing in the bushes behind a shopping center 3 weeks ago from alcohol poisoning, her dad will be the next to go. Her grandmother, her Godmother and another woman and I filed suit in federal court in April 2006 to try and prevent the death of any family members by asking the Fed to compel specific performance according to California Health and Saftey Code 1370.4 (the mental health dept, had started in 1999 but was stopped by superiors). It has been dismissed with prejudice and appealled in the 9th circuit.

Wow. No wonder your having problems. I grew up in housing projects (government housing). I had to experiance drug bust at 4 in the AM, shootouts, spousal beatings next door, gangs, loud and violent block parties. I've lost more friends than I can count to drugs addiction, overdose. I even had a friend who was executed for killing his grandmother to get money for drugs. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/statisti...t/lokinbil.jpg
I lost three uncles to alchoholism. They died from cirrotic (sp?) livers.

The one thing I've learned is that you can't save anybody unless thier looking to be saved.
You also have to be able to save yourself first before you can be in a position to save anybody else. And from the looks of it Chris, you need alot of help yourself.



:
We no longer have a Constitution, (did we ever?)

Case No. CV. 06-2085

3000 are killed at the WTC, familys being destroyed by drugs and alcohol, I work to do something about all of it and you lie, distort and manipulate my efforts.

But doing the wrong thing or wasting your time and effort on something that is incorrect is just as bad. Besides pestering the the wrong authorities with incoherency and conjecture is not going to help your case. For them to respond requires massive amount of evidence and corroberating sources. Unfortunatly your website sadly lacks both. And you efforts are being directed at the wrong authorities and improperly so.
For instance, let's take alook at those documents you posted



You also left out important documents, See them at the bottom.

You are sick

I seek public records and the County of Santa Barbara fails to appear on subpoena
http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/images/subden.gif


In this letter you seem to be asking them for records that date back to 1876 to 1879. First, The Santa Barbara county sherriff's department wasn't formed untill 1850.you were asking for records that dated back to 26 years after the county was first formed. Second, most organizations do not have active records that date back that far. Documents that old are usually archived off site and usually with a university or historical society. You should have found out where the county historical records are stored, then asked whoever has them for access.
(also, you need to edit the document. It has your address listed on it.)


:
I use the Freedom of Information Act to get the response from the State Mental Health Department as promised in the letter from the County Mental Health Department below, no response.
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/foiarequestmh.gif

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.p...d=116331318

County facilities are not equiped or allowed to perform any experimental proceedures on patients. That is usually done through a research university. And that is only done after a collossal amount of research and study by competent doctors have propsed the procedure through the proper channels.

Also, The Freedom of Information Act has absolutly nothing to do with the conducting of experimental medical proceedures. This is further proof that you really don't know what you are doing.

Like I said before, doing the wrong thing is just as bad (if not worse) as doing nothing at all.


Chris, you really need to get help for yourself first. Maybe then you'll be able to think clearer and be able to help those you wish to help.

[Belz...]

No way would gypsum or dry wall be there after hundreds of thousands of tons of steel crashed over it.

Actually, It's just as likely as concrete to remain there. It's certainly more flexible.

Besides, yours is an argument from personnal incredulity.

Yes, probably created by the infiltrators, they do sloppy work.

Those infiltrators of yours must be the stupidest people on earth. They should've built the WTC with steel columns and simply ram them with airliners. That would've done the trick, just like IT DOES IN REALITY.

The core begins 5 levels down.

You're the one who said 7.

Just the documentary. Not available, yet.

And we know how poor your memory is concerning these matters.

Meaning you have no raw evidence of the 47 steel core columns FEMA says existed.

Oh, I'm sure we have a few, somewhere.

But a single piece of concrete from the core would validate your claim, at least to a degree.

How did they get cut like that when they were originally 1300 foot long, 100% butt welded to be continous?

Perhaps it's my imagination but I remember quite clearly that they were, in fact, bolted.

[Belz...]

We almost went a whole page without anybody seriously trying to argue with Chris...

You realise he's going to come back at you with the same stuff again don't you?

Seriously, post a kitten, it's more fun.

I'm sorry, I'd prefer not to act like a kid.

[maccy]

I'm sorry, I'd prefer not to act like a kid.

Fine, but do you really think it is worth arguing with someone who has no concept of of reality? Who shows no likelihood of ever accepting your arguments?

Bear in mind that there is plenty of evidence on his own website to show that Chris is mentally ill. Confronting him about his delusions is very unlikely to help with this and could well be worsening his condition.

Even if this isn't the case you're still arguing with someone who won't change their mind and whose arguments will convince nobody.

The argument is won, let it go.

The Kittens may be childish, but they have serious purpose - diffusing this thread and leaving Christophera be, in the hope that he will one day seek help.

---------------------

Edited to Add: Anybody just joining this thread, please don't just jump in, look around and consider if it is wise to argue with Christophera - you could save yourself a great deal of frustration this way.

[Z]

I thought the show was Ally McBeal, not Amy McBeal.

Another fine example of why we should trust Christophera's amazing photographic memory.

[Belz...]

Fine, but do you really think it is worth arguing withe someone who has no concept of of reality? Who shows no likelihood of ever accpeting your arguments.

I'm well aware of this.

Bear in mind that there is plenty of evidence on his own website to show that Chris is mentally ill. Confronting him about his delusions is very unlikely to help with this and could well be worsening his condition.

I'm no psi. How exactly do you propose we deal with it ? Ignoring him ? I'm not sure that'll change anything.

I'm just tagging along. If you don't like the thread, you can always leave. I've done it before.

The Kittens may be childish, but they have serious purpose.

No, no they don't.

[firecoins]

20% of how many?
Hes got 5 friends

[Christophera]

Am I the only one having trouble understanding this guy? :confused:

Your unconscious is not letting you understand. That is my point.

[maccy]

I'm well aware of this.

Then why are you still arguing? I'm curious to know what you get out of this.

I'm no psi. How exactly do you propose we deal with it ? Ignoring him ? I'm not sure that'll change anything.

I'll freely admit that I'm not an expert either but it seems to me that if we keep arguing with him then he won't change his mind (6 months of arguing and him not changing is mind is enough evidence of this for me). If we stop arguing then it shows that we don't care about his arguments, we're not giving him validation by replying. This may give him pause, it may not - but I am sure we're not going to change his mind by arguing, so we have nothing to lose by stopping.

I'm sure there are plenty of other forums where Chris is also pursuing this argument but the less time he spends repeating himself with us the more time he has do other things and the more likely it is that he may have a period of reflection and come to his senses a little.

Here is an academic source that suggests that arguing with Chris may make things worse:

Therapists who want to maintain a working alliance with a paranoid patient must avoid becoming the object of projection. They should provide models of non-paranoid behavior, and not allow themselves to become either an aggressor or a victim. The therapist must build trust gradually, without trying to be too friendly, and avoid showing of anger or defensiveness. Complete honesty is essential because people with paranoid tendencies are highly sensitive to deception and holding back.

Disputing or otherwise directly confronting paranoid beliefs is ineffective, and interpretations will be regarded mainly as accusations. Instead, the therapist must help patients acknowledge the feelings they have been defending themselves against.
http://hmiworld.org/hmi/issues/Jan_Feb_2005/around_paranoia.html emphasis mine.

This may not apply to Christophera, but are you willing to take the risk that it does? What are you getting from this argument that makes it worth taking this risk?

I'm just tagging along. If you don't like the thread, you can always leave. I've done it before.

I'll stick around for a bit, if only to encourage anybody new to the thread to think about whether they should get in involved or not.

I'm interested to see if I can convince people that it's better just to ignore Chris. I'm not going to get upset if you don't agree with me, but I think its worth having the argument.

Lastly, I'm interested in the psychology of the people who keep arguing.

You say you left, what made you come back?

[bonavada]

Fine, but do you really think it is worth arguing with someone who has no concept of of reality? Who shows no likelihood of ever accepting your arguments?
<snip>
The argument is won, let it go.


i tend to agree with you maccy. although it is difficult not to respond when chris continues to regurgitate his nonsense here. it's the newcomers to the thread that i feel sorry for. they read his guff then find one of the numerous flaws and like me just feel they have to put the poor sap right.

as a rookie debunker i have learned many things from this thread, in particular the mindset of your typical CT.....unwilling to see evidence that compromises their own theory, the inability to accept that they might be wrong, the total inanity of some of their claims.
chris might be an extreme case but what has stood out for me is the LIES he has told (the documentary, the mohawks etc etc) to bolster the otherwise flimsy "evidence" he feels he holds for his theory. i found this reprehensible. fair enough, stick to your guns as to what you might believe to be true but to tell blatant falsehoods is many rungs down the moral ladder and chris should be put in his place for that. in that sense i can see where belz is coming from.
for my part i am discontinuing to try and argue a decent case with christophera here, as you say he is beyond hope. although i will still take a look at the thread now and again. it's always good for a laugh.

BV

[Christophera]

I thought the show was Ally McBeal, not Amy McBeal.

Another fine example of why we should trust Christophera's amazing photographic memory.

I am corrected. I never have been able to get that right. Amy is stuck there, I don't watch TV, haven't for about 8 years and only watched it a few times and maybe saw the intro once. My memory often works better with images and then they trigger recall of verbal.

For example: Someone a couple of years ago sent me to watch that 18 minute celebratory documentary about the WTC. In it there was a shot looking down obto a scene where floors were being assembled 3 stories below and a crane was rapidly rotating and lifting a slowly spinning floor panel. The same shot was in the 2 hour documentary I saw in 1990. it kept bothering me, as if there was something important about it.

After maybe 8 months the image kept coming back and suddenly I remembered the narration talking about the fact that the videographers never found any images of the final work on the floors before the concrete was poured. Then I remembered about the detail drawings of the tempered plates that were used to fill in the truncated corners to the interior box columns and realized that the extraordinary tolerences the videographers remarked upon provided the perfect guide plates for optimized cutting charges built into the floors (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383).

[maccy]

Bonovada,

Where you see lies, I see delusions - which is what makes it easy for me avoid responding and encourages me to ask others to do the same.

I have to say that Chris is the only person on this board that I fell this way about. TruthSeeker1234 seems to have a normal (or at least functional) life outside of his CT theories (and extreme anarcho-capitalist ideas) - Chris' website shows plenty of evidence that his life is falling apart.

So if anybody does want to cut their teeth with so0meone with crazy ideas, I'd recommend TruthSeeker1234 rather than Christophera.

[tsig]

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/cats/batcountry3tv.jpg

With thanks to Bronze Dog (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=4502) who has initiated kittens in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2091660#post2091660) and pointed to a handy repository here (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/cats/cats.htm).

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, right?

[Christophera]

unwilling to see evidence that compromises their own theory, the inability to accept that they might be wrong, the total inanity of some of their claims.


If you had any evidence at all you might be able to pretend what you do have compromises the scenario which is assembled that does explain near free fall and total pulverization. (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)

You and yours have been totally unable to even produce one image of steel box columns inside the core are at some elevation off the gorund. Whereas I have numerous pictures of concrete (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) and they should show steel core columns if they existed, but they did not so they are never seen.

Here is a piece of the top of the concrete core of WTC 2 falling onto WTC 3. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2coreonto3.gif)

[slingblade]

....the extraordinary tolerences the videographers remarked upon provided the perfect guide plates for optimized cutting charges built into the floors (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383).

Christophera, when were the towers built? In what year was construction started?

[bonavada]

Bonovada,

Where you see lies, I see delusions - which is what makes it easy for me avoid responding and encourages me to ask others to do the same.

I have to say that Chris is the only person on this board that I fell this way about. TruthSeeker1234 seems to have a normal (or at least functional) life outside of his CT theories (and extreme anarcho-capitalist ideas) - Chris' website shows plenty of evidence that his life is falling apart.

So if anybody does want to cut their teeth with so0meone with crazy ideas, I'd recommend TruthSeeker1234 rather than Christophera.

noted..........

Q.E.D. the above also :-]

BV

[maccy]

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, right?

Yes. It seemed weirdly appropriate.

Everytime I venture into this thread I can see their wings, out of the corner of my eye...

:D

[bonavada]

If you had any evidence at all you might be able to pretend what you do have compromises the scenario which is assembled that does explain near free fall and total pulverization. (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)

You and yours have been totally unable to even produce one image of steel box columns inside the core are at some elevation off the gorund. Whereas I have numerous pictures of concrete (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) and they should show steel core columns if they existed, but they did not so they are never seen.

Here is a piece of the top of the concrete core of WTC 2 falling onto WTC 3. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2coreonto3.gif)

chris,
please, out of interest...how many hits have you had on your site(s) since this thread began? and how many before?

BV

[firecoins]

So what did happen on 9/11 Chris?

[maccy]

More definitions to consider:

The identifying mark of paranoid personality is fear (and expectation) of attack and betrayal. Paranoid personalities are suspicious, touchy, humorless, quick to take offense and slow to forgive, self-righteous, argumentative, often litigious. They seldom show tenderness and may avoid intimacy; often they seem tense and brusque. Paranoid personalities find causal connections everywhere; nothing is coincidental. They think that others are taking special notice of them and see references to themselves in innocuous behavior and irrelevant events. They are constantly on guard, searching for hidden motives and meetings.

Once they fix on an idea or explanation, they look for evidence to validate their prejudices, and it is almost impossible to change their minds. When something goes wrong in their lives, they believe that another person is to blame.

Paranoid schizophrenia is identified by prominent delusions or hallucinations in a person whose reasoning and emotional responses are relatively well preserved. Some believe it is a distinct type of schizophrenia; others regard it as one form or stage of an underlying schizophrenic condition that produces different symptoms at different times. Like paranoid personalities, schizophrenic patients in a paranoid state are angry, rigid, and argumentative, but unlike paranoid personalities, they have delusions — false beliefs about external reality that persist in contradiction to the beliefs of others and despite obvious and irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

from http://hmiworld.org/hmi/issues/Jan_Feb_2005/around_paranoia.html

some pages from Christophera's websites:

http://www.truthasaur.com/my_22/my22.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/nojustice/timeline.html

[uruk]

Chris must have me on "ignore"

Just in case Chris is too lazy:


:
Originally Posted by Christophera
You have changed the text of the page. Misrepresenting what I'm doing which is trying to save lives.

Well, your not going to save lives by posting a website.




I've lost 5 friends to suicide in 7 years and 2 to drugs and alcohol. The mother of an 18 year old next door who has herself a 6 month old baby was found decomposing in the bushes behind a shopping center 3 weeks ago from alcohol poisoning, her dad will be the next to go. Her grandmother, her Godmother and another woman and I filed suit in federal court in April 2006 to try and prevent the death of any family members by asking the Fed to compel specific performance according to California Health and Saftey Code 1370.4 (the mental health dept, had started in 1999 but was stopped by superiors). It has been dismissed with prejudice and appealled in the 9th circuit.

Wow. No wonder your having problems. I grew up in housing projects (government housing). I had to experiance drug bust at 4 in the AM, shootouts, spousal beatings next door, gangs, loud and violent block parties. I've lost more friends than I can count to drugs addiction, overdose. I even had a friend who was executed for killing his grandmother to get money for drugs. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/statisti...t/lokinbil.jpg
I lost three uncles to alchoholism. They died from cirrotic (sp?) livers.

The one thing I've learned is that you can't save anybody unless thier looking to be saved.
You also have to be able to save yourself first before you can be in a position to save anybody else. And from the looks of it Chris, you need alot of help yourself.





We no longer have a Constitution, (did we ever?)

Case No. CV. 06-2085

3000 are killed at the WTC, familys being destroyed by drugs and alcohol, I work to do something about all of it and you lie, distort and manipulate my efforts.

But doing the wrong thing or wasting your time and effort on something that is incorrect is just as bad. Besides pestering the the wrong authorities with incoherency and conjecture is not going to help your case. For them to respond requires massive amount of evidence and corroberating sources. Unfortunatly your website sadly lacks both. And you efforts are being directed at the wrong authorities and improperly so.
For instance, let's take alook at those documents you posted



:
You also left out important documents, See them at the bottom.

You are sick

I seek public records and the County of Santa Barbara fails to appear on subpoena
http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/images/subden.gif

In this letter you seem to be asking them for records that date back to 1876 to 1879. First, The Santa Barbara county sherriff's department wasn't formed untill 1850.you were asking for records that dated back to 26 years after the county was first formed. Second, most organizations do not have active records that date back that far. Documents that old are usually archived off site and usually with a university or historical society. You should have found out where the county historical records are stored, then asked whoever has them for access.
(also, you need to edit the document. It has your address listed on it.)



:
:
I use the Freedom of Information Act to get the response from the State Mental Health Department as promised in the letter from the County Mental Health Department below, no response.
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/foiarequestmh.gif

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.p...d=116331318

County facilities are not equiped or allowed to perform any experimental proceedures on patients. That is usually done through a research university. And that is only done after a collossal amount of research and study by competent doctors have propsed the procedure through the proper channels.

Also, The Freedom of Information Act has absolutly nothing to do with the conducting of experimental medical proceedures. This is further proof that you really don't know what you are doing.

Like I said before, doing the wrong thing is just as bad (if not worse) as doing nothing at all.


Chris, you really need to get help for yourself first. Maybe then you'll be able to think clearer and be able to help those you wish to help.

[uruk]

Here is a piece of the top of the concrete core of WTC 2 falling onto WTC 3. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2coreonto3.gif)

How can that be a piece of the concrete core if the concrete was totaly pulverized by explosives coated onto the rebar within the concrete?

Contradicting yourself again?

[Garb]

Your unconscious is not letting you understand. That is my point.

Maybe you are just insane...

[maccy]

Maybe you are just insane...

Actually, Christophera, I know that Garb is putting things harshly here but have you considered seeing a mental health professional, if only to have a chat about your life and the things that drive you?

I don't see that this would do any harm, if your beliefs are reasonable then they won't be cahnged by having a talk - and you'd receive some reassurance about your mental state.

Whatever you decide, I hope things work out well for you.

[Pardalis]

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/09/ani_wombat_gallery__550x393.jpg

Woah! :scared: Is that a wombat?

I've never seen one up close, and I thought they were cute...:(

[delphi_ote]

Hes got 5 friends
And four of them are in his head.

[delphi_ote]

Hes got 5 friends
And four of them are in his head.

[twinstead]

Somebody should put this thread out of its misery

[tsig]

I'm sorry, I'd prefer not to act like a kid.

An unresonable response to an unreasonable situation is quite reasonable.

[tsig]

Your unconscious is not letting you understand. That is my point.

Being unconscious could only help with my understanding your pic.

[tsig]

Yes. It seemed weirdly appropriate.

Everytime I venture into this thread I can see their wings, out of the corner of my eye...

:D

I'll never forgive HST.

[Darat]

I stopped following this thread a little time ago. However I have had to take action in this thread before and I will again if necessary.

Let me make it clear that Christophera is entitled (like we all are) to post in this Forum as long as he keeps to the few rules and guidelines outlined in the Registration & Membership Agreements.

If you cannot or do not want to respond to a Member's arguments and claims then do not post, do not turn to making personal attacks, doing so will put you in breach of your Membership Agreement.

[Christophera]

Christophera, when were the towers built? In what year was construction started?


Construction began in 1966.

[tsig]

I stopped following this thread a little time ago. However I have had to take action in this thread before and I will again if necessary.

Let me make it clear that Christophera is entitled (like we all are) to post in this Forum as long as he keeps to the few rules and guidelines outlined in the Registration & Membership Agreements.

If you cannot or do not want to respond to a Member's arguments and claims then do not post, do not turn to making personal attacks, doing so will put you in breach of your Membership Agreement.

Sorry

from where the sun now sets
I will post no more in this thread
forever.

[Christophera]

Actually, Christophera, I know that Garb is putting things harshly here but have you considered seeing a mental health professional, if only to have a chat about your life and the things that drive you?

I don't see that this would do any harm, if your beliefs are reasonable then they won't be cahnged by having a talk - and you'd receive some reassurance about your mental state.

Whatever you decide, I hope things work out well for you.

Your emotional responses to death and lawlessness are inappropriate. As I've said, it is you that are sick if we are supposed to be a part of a civilized society.

I've been investigating the field of psychology and I've discovered deep negligence and unreasonable, debilitating fears within their ranks. Here is basic evidence proving that. I've learned you cannot use my evidence as you operate with attitude rather than logic and reason so this is really for the viewer so they know I'm not ignoring you while recieving some knowledge about their world.

Here is the results of my approaches to the official authhority of psychology for California and the societal authority of psychology for the nation, the A.P.A.

http://members.tripod.com/truthasaur/2emo13.html

http://members.tripod.com/truthasaur/aparesponse.html

[maccy]

Your emotional responses to death and lawlessness are inappropriate. As I've said, it is you that are sick if we are supposed to be a part of a civilized society.

I've been investigating the field of psychology and I've discovered deep negligence and unreasonable, debilitating fears within their ranks. Here is basic evidence proving that. I've learned you cannot use my evidence as you operate with attitude rather than logic and reason so this is really for the viewer so they know I'm not ignoring you while recieving some knowledge about their world.

Here is the results of my approaches to the official authhority of psychology for California and the societal authority of psychology for the nation, the A.P.A.

http://members.tripod.com/truthasaur/2emo13.html

http://members.tripod.com/truthasaur/aparesponse.html

Christophera, I'm out of here. I've read Darat's warning and I agree that it is inappropriate to speculate about your mental health - even if I did so out of concern for your wellbeing and not as an attack. If you've felt offended or personally attacked by my posts then I apologise, it was not my intention.

I won't respond to your arguments except to say that I do not find them convincing and I have this in common with all the people on this thread, except you. Yet no counter-argument over the past 6 months has convinced you that you are fundamentally in error. You may wish to reflect on why this is. It is my hope that one day you'll take time out from defending your position and reassess your views on the world with a clear mind.

Good luck in all you do.

[slingblade]

Construction began in 1966.

Okay, well all I wanted to say about that is I think it's a little far-fetched to assume LBJ's administration pre-loaded the towers with explosives.

That's all. I'm not going to post here anymore, either. I hope things go well for you, Chris. I really do. Please take care.

[jsfisher]

Christophera, I'm out of here. I've read Darat's warning and I agree that it is inappropriate to speculate about you mental health ...
May I suggest a more focussed approach, then. I think the "free-for-all" we have had has given Christophera maximum wiggle room. Facts and rebuttals go ignored because there's always that next post to which Christophera can recycle old claims.

So, here's my suggestion:

(1) Only one question on the floor is allowed at a time. Posters that try to stray to another point are chastised until Christophera has had a reasonable opportunity to offer a *specific* response. Reminder posts may be necessary.

(2) Images of small furry animals are always appropriate.

(3) Specific questions and the specific response should be accumulated as a digest and periodically reposted so the rest of us don't waste a lot of time on recycled questions.

For the rest of this post, I will adopt tactic #2. Here's the NWO:

[Christophera]

Just in case Chris is too lazy:

Well, your not going to save lives by posting a website.

Perhaps you didn't notice. There are at least 6 completely different websites an perhaps 500 web pages altogether. You are wrong.

Finding those that accuse others of what they are guilty of is common. On the websites you were to lazy to examine you will find that there are details of perhaps 5 different lawsuits.

Wow. No wonder your having problems. I grew up in housing projects (government housing).

Sorry to hear you upbringing was so difficult and that your family has been so badly impacted. You might consider using my evidence to file a lawsuit.


The one thing I've learned is that you can't save anybody unless thier looking to be saved.
You also have to be able to save yourself first before you can be in a position to save anybody else. And from the looks of it Chris, you need alot of help yourself.

Further down that the experimental treatment I proposed, I believe has the potential to CHANGE the way a person feels and want to be "saved". Perhaps this is not ethical in all cases but in many it is.

I will not pretend that my anxiety is not off the scale. That is the price of knowledge.

But doing the wrong thing or wasting your time and effort on something that is incorrect is just as bad. Besides pestering the the wrong authorities with incoherency and conjecture is not going to help your case. For them to respond requires massive amount of evidence and corroberating sources. Unfortunatly your website sadly lacks both. And you efforts are being directed at the wrong authorities and improperly so.
For instance, let's take alook at those documents you posted.

Your appraisal of "wrong things and wasting time" or what is "correct" is deficient. Obviously so because you have not read enough, or correctly to inform yourself.

confirmation of a meeting with the director of the Santa Barbara County Mental Health Department and statement of intent to provide the response of the State Mental Health Departments response to their request to teh State for permission to administer an experimental treatment. (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/confirmsbcomh.jpg)

In this letter (http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/images/subden.gif) you seem to be asking them for records that date back to 1876 to 1879.

Firstly, that letter is not from me it is to me from the custodian of records at the Santa Barbara County Sherifs Department.

First, The Santa Barbara county sherriff's department wasn't formed untill 1850.you were asking for records that dated back to 26 years after the county was first formed. Second, most organizations do not have active records that date back that far. Documents that old are usually archived off site and usually with a university or historical society. You should have found out where the county historical records are stored, then asked whoever has them for access.
(also, you need to edit the document. It has your address listed on it.)

This is a link to a scan of a Declaration from person who saw the suboenaed records in the law library at the county jail one year before they were subpoenaed (http://members.fortunecity.com/nojustice2/images/skuse.jpg) Meaning I knew exactly where the records were before I subpoenaed them.

County facilities are not equiped or allowed to perform any experimental proceedures on patients. That is usually done through a research university. And that is only done after a collossal amount of research and study by competent doctors have propsed the procedure through the proper channels.

I've determined the universities have the same problems as the other official entities. I've discovered that psychology has forgotten about forgetting (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/humanmem.jpg), and memory controls our behaviors to a large degree. Dissociation is a phenomena of memory and MUST, reasonably be in the index of this book titled "Human Memory" (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/humanmem2.jpg)

Again homer, read the letter from the Santa Barbara County Mental Health Department (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/confirmsbcomh.jpg) and you will see they are looking for permission from the State to administer the experimental treatment. Examine California Health and Safety Code Section 1370.4l(b) at http://law.onecle.com/california/health/1370.4.htm and you will see that by law the counties operating under a state health plan MUST conduct experimental treatments under proper conditions. In this case the County Mental health Department Director AND the chief medical doctor for the department elected to work directly with me and my information. It was their superiors that stopped them and failed to respond to the Freedom Of Information Act request, which is why myself and 3 others are suing in Federal court.

Also, The Freedom of Information Act has absolutly nothing to do with the conducting of experimental medical proceedures. This is further proof that you really don't know what you are doing.

That is true, but that is not what I'm using it to request. I use the Freedom of Information Act to get the response from the State Mental Health Department as promised in the letter from the County Mental Health Department below, no response. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/foiarequestmh.gif) which is simple information already (or should be) produced. A point you missed, which doesn't matter is that the FOIA does not apply technically to any agencies except for federal agencies. I've discovered that the courts DO apply it to any governmental agency despite what the law reads. You might note that the defendants have not tried to say it does not apply but instead imply, erroneously, that I did not respond within the tolling of time in the process. A person has 20 days to appeal the denial of information AFTER the denial. The county never denied the request so my charges are valid.

Like I said before, doing the wrong thing is just as bad (if not worse) as doing nothing at all.

Chris, you really need to get help for yourself first. Maybe then you'll be able to think clearer and be able to help those you wish to help.

It should be clear that you do not know what you are doing. Stop trying to critique any of my actions. You are too lazy to research them deeply enough to do so. Also, your reading comprehension is not up to it. My anxiety is my only problem, and you are no help. You are a waste of time, but if I don't answer it might look like you know what you are talking about. You don't. So stop wasting my time.

If you want to help, save the links to the documents regarding the experimental treatment and find some alcoholics or their families and explain to the them how negligent psychology is. Then research your states laws to see if a law exists like 1370.4 (b) and use it to compel the local mental health department to administer the treatment.

[Bell]

Christophera, could you please stop calling him Homer? His user name is uruk

[Smiffy]

At last sense has been seen. I hope others follow maccy, slingblade and DHr's responsible sentiments. Any long time followers who continue to argue should let it go.

Over and out...

[Oliver]

So why do you think it was freefall, Christophera?`I still
don´t get this argument. And what is freefall - to make
clear that we agree about this one.

[stateofgrace]

At last sense has been seen. I hope others follow maccy, slingblade and DHr's responsible sentiments. Any long time followers who continue to argue should let it go.

Over and out...

I agree completely.

I fully agree everybody is entitled to their opinion and entitled to voice it.

I have made it clear on a number of occasions during the course of this thread I don't agree with these opinions and as such see no point in being involved in this thread.

This is my last post in this thread.

Signing out.

[Christophera]

So why do you think it was freefall, Christophera?`I still
don´t get this argument. And what is freefall - to make
clear that we agree about this one.


http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/Class/1DKin/U1L5a.html


It is most accurate to say the towers fell at near free fall because the exact moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined.

[NobbyNobbs]

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/Class/1DKin/U1L5a.html


It is most accurate to say the towers fell at near free fall because the exact moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined.

I don't follow this logic. In the absence of evidence, we should assume they fell at free fall? Why?

Actually, the most accurate thing you could say is "We can't determine at what rate the towers fell because the moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined."

[delphi_ote]

(1) Only one question on the floor is allowed at a time. Posters that try to stray to another point are chastised until Christophera has had a reasonable opportunity to offer a *specific* response. Reminder posts may be necessary.
This actually sounds really good to me. This thread actually might be interesting if we could keep some kind of focus. Someone should be in charge of the conch (Lord of the Flies?,) so to speak. That person asks one question, and we all stick to that one question until the questioner is satisfied. Then they pass the conch to the next person to request it, and that person asks one question. One topic, one issue, until we get to the bottom of it. We ignore any tangents from Chris. Laser focus. Tunnel vision. Discipline.

If someone strays, remind them in big letters to "Stay on Target," and make your best Star Wars nerd reference when you do so for extra style.

Sound reasonable? We can explain the rules periodically to lurkers. If you guys would like, we'll say I've got the conch and I'm ready to pass it. Whoever wants to be up first with their question, volunteer!

Appropriately, our conch will be :socks: Drop it at the end of your post to let people know you have it. e.g.

Has the :socks:

[delphi_ote]

I realize it might be folly to try and impose order on this thread, but by His Noodliness I'm going to try.

Has the :socks:

[Z]

Apologies to all, but I think we can engage a reasonable discussion on this point - if we move slowly and carefully.

Chris, what is near free fall? Would that include a rate of fall that takes air resistance into account? Or is there a +/- value you can give us that separates near free fall from some other category of fall?

Understand, the reason I ask this, is that clearly you wish to demonstrate that the rate of the tower's collapse is unusual or unexpected; but if your values for 'near free fall' are significantly different from 'free fall', they may well approach expected collapse rates for this situation, and thus no longer be a point.

After you've responded, I have another question relating to rate of fall...

[Z]

This actually sounds really good to me. This thread actually might be interesting if we could keep some kind of focus. Someone should be in charge of the conch (Lord of the Flies?,) so to speak. That person asks one question, and we all stick to that one question until the questioner is satisfied. Then they pass the conch to the next person to request it, and that person asks one question. One topic, one issue, until we get to the bottom of it. We ignore any tangents from Chris. Laser focus. Tunnel vision. Discipline.

If someone strays, remind them in big letters to "Stay on Target," and make your best Star Wars nerd reference when you do so for extra style.

Sound reasonable? We can explain the rules periodically to lurkers. If you guys would like, we'll say I've got the conch and I'm ready to pass it. Whoever wants to be up first with their question, volunteer!

Appropriately, our conch will be :socks: Drop it at the end of your post to let people know you have it. e.g.

Has the :socks:

Oh, sure, post that WHILE I'm posting...

Keep your :socks:...

[jsfisher]

Ok, then. Here's where we stand:
Q: Why do you think it was freefall?
A: It is most accurate to say the towers fell at near free fall because the exact moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined.
It was "near free fall," but why do you believe it it was too fast to fit the official explanation for the collapse?

ETA: Ignore my question. There is already another question on the floor, albeit similar.

[delphi_ote]

Oh, sure, post that WHILE I'm posting...

Keep your :socks:...
No no. You take the :socks:. That's the question: free fall We stay at it until Chris gives us a satisfactory answer.

ETA and the question:
Chris, what is near free fall? Would that include a rate of fall that takes air resistance into account? Or is there a +/- value you can give us that separates near free fall from some other category of fall?

zaayrdragon now has the :socks:

[Z]

Very well...

Reposted, just in case:

Chris, what is near free fall? Would that include a rate of fall that takes air resistance into account? Or is there a +/- value you can give us that separates near free fall from some other category of fall?

Understand, the reason I ask this, is that clearly you wish to demonstrate that the rate of the tower's collapse is unusual or unexpected; but if your values for 'near free fall' are significantly different from 'free fall', they may well approach expected collapse rates for this situation, and thus no longer be a point.

After you've responded, I have another question relating to rate of fall...

These are clean :socks: - yay

[Christophera]

I don't follow this logic. In the absence of evidence, we should assume they fell at free fall? Why?

Actually, the most accurate thing you could say is "We can't determine at what rate the towers fell because the moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined."

If NIST states that one fell at just over 10 seconds, to say they fell at near free fall is most accurate. To say We can't determine at what rate the towers fell" is not comprehensive and therefore not accurate.

it is a very minor issue when two towers of that nature fell basically identically completely to the ground with concrete turned to sand and gravel and dust and the heavyest steel in the buildings cut into neat equal lengths.

[bonavada]

Someone should be in charge of the conch

just don't call me piggy......

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/874845591af7e6f33.jpg

BV

[Christophera]

Very well...

Reposted, just in case:

Chris, what is near free fall? Would that include a rate of fall that takes air resistance into account? Or is there a +/- value you can give us that separates near free fall from some other category of fall?

Understand, the reason I ask this, is that clearly you wish to demonstrate that the rate of the tower's collapse is unusual or unexpected; but if your values for 'near free fall' are significantly different from 'free fall', they may well approach expected collapse rates for this situation, and thus no longer be a point.

After you've responded, I have another question relating to rate of fall...

These are clean :socks: - yay

As I say in my post to Nobby, the issue of free fall is minor. If they took 20 seconds is doesn't matter to me. The fact that they did so identically to the ground is ASTOUNDING. Defying logic totally if described as "collapse".

[Arus808]

If NIST states that one fell at just over 10 seconds

To the point where they couldn't see any more of the collapse. They didn't state how they determined that time period.

to say they fell at near free fall is most accurate. To say We can't determine at what rate the towers fell" is not comprehensive and therefore not accurate.

you can't say its near free fall unless the entire collapse was measured. the NIST admits they didn't see the entire collapse.

[delphi_ote]

If NIST states that one fell at just over 10 seconds, to say they fell at near free fall is most accurate. To say We can't determine at what rate the towers fell" is not comprehensive and therefore not accurate.
Okay... so far that's not really answering the question, Chris. Please specify what near free fall means, for a start.
it is a very minor issue when two towers of that nature fell basically identically completely to the ground with concrete turned to sand and gravel and dust and the heavyest steel in the buildings cut into neat equal lengths.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/Porkins.jpg
STAY ON TARGET!

[Z]

As I say in my post to Nobby, the issue of free fall is minor. If they took 20 seconds is doesn't matter to me. The fact that they did so identically to the ground is ASTOUNDING. Defying logic totally if described as "collapse".

Please keep your arguments from incredulity out of it, and focus on the question at hand.

Obviously, the issue of free fall is not minor, in context of this thread, as it's THE issue in the title.

Therefore, please answer the question at hand: how do you define 'near free fall'?

[Christophera]

Okay... so far that's not really answering the question, Chris. Please specify what near free fall means, for a start.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/Porkins.jpg
STAY ON TARGET!

I accept this as I posted above. Consider that it is actually unimportant as to the exact rate of fall. What is importnat is the explanation as to HOW they fell that fast, however fast it was.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2093905#post2093905

[jsfisher]

Where we stand:
Q: Why do you think it was freefall?
A: It is most accurate to say the towers fell at near free fall because the exact moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined.

Q: What is near free fall? Would that include a rate of fall that takes air resistance into account? Or is there a +/- value you can give us that separates near free fall from some other category of fall?
A: The issue of free fall is minor. If they took 20 seconds is doesn't matter to me. The fact that they did so identically to the ground is ASTOUNDING. Defying logic totally if described as "collapse".
Chris, I think your answer is something of an evasion. The opening post for this thread hinges on free fall. Also, to say you cannot determine the time for one collapse doesn't seem consistent with the claim both towers took the same time to come down.

So, I think the question hasn't yet been fully answered.

[delphi_ote]

I accept this as I posted above. Consider that it is actually unimportant as too the exact rate of fall. What is importnat is the explanation as to HOW they fell that fast, however fast it was.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2093905#post2093905
Do you retract your claim about "near free fall"? We are not leaving this subject until zaayrdragon says so.

[Christophera]

Do you retract your claim about "near free fall"? We are not leaving this subject until zaayrdragon says so.

Can you produce an image of the supposed steel core columns in the core area from the demo images showing the supposed columns at some elevation above the ground.

I know from 180 + pages you cannot. This means you answer is NO.

I've said I consider 20 seconds to be "near free fall" and that the issue is unimportant compared to the near identical events.

Are you trying to focus on unimportant issues?

[Z]

Chris, acceptable answers are:

1) Define 'near free fall', giving a rate of downward acceleration for comparison.
2) Retract 'near free fall', which eliminates the question in the title of this thread and half of your OP question.

Please, stay on target.

[Christophera]

Where we stand:

Chris, I think your answer is something of an evasion. The opening post for this thread hinges on free fall. Also, to say you cannot determine the time for one collapse doesn't seem consistent with the claim both towers took the same time to come down.

So, I think the question hasn't yet been fully answered.

Also, realize that this issue has been fully dealt with already in this thread (read it) and I've agreed to use the term "near free fall" for good reason. It is the most accurate term that can be selected.

[Z]

Also, realize that this issue has been fully dealt with already in this thread (read it) and I've agreed to use the term "near free fall" for good reason. It is the most accurate term that can be selected.

If you have already defined 'near free fall', giving a rate of downward acceleration, please repost it here (a simple copy/paste or quote function). Otherwise, please define 'near free fall', or retract this claim.

ETA: A time (20 seconds) is not a rate of downward acceleration. Hence, saying '20 seconds is near free fall' is inaccurate.

[jsfisher]

Also, realize that this issue has been fully dealt with already in this thread (read it) and I've agreed to use the term "near free fall" for good reason. It is the most accurate term that can be selected.
Chris, please understand the goal, here, is to give the discussion some focus. The thousands of posts that precede this one have an extremely low signal-to-noise ratio. We are simply trying to explore your reasoning and arguments without the asides into other issues or the "proof is left as an exercise for the reader" sort of links.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the opening post connotes your belief the towers came down in a free fall. One recent post says, no, not free fall, but near free fall. Yet another post says you don't know how fast they came down, and the rate is unimportant.

There are not consistent statements.

So, to resolve the current question, you need to either (a) retract the near free fall claim or (b) provide some guidance as to what you mean by near free fall.


ETA a Rule #2 contribution:
http://www.cutepuppydog.com/is48101_Golden_retriever.jpg

[uruk]

Perhaps you didn't notice. There are at least 6 completely different websites an perhaps 500 web pages altogether. You are wrong. Five times nothing is still nothing.

Finding those that accuse others of what they are guilty of is common. On the websites you were to lazy to examine you will find that there are details of perhaps 5 different lawsuits.
Filing a frivolous lawsuite is worse than doing nothing. It's tieing up the legal system with patent absurdity. That's probably why your lawsuits keep getting thrown out.
This page from your website proves what I'm saying:
http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/telepath2.html
http://algoxy.com/law/nojustice2/telepath3.html
The court document keeps repeating "Facts stated do not constitute a cause of action" and "plaintif has no relevent evidence to support his claim"

This seems to be a recurring theme on your research.

Sorry to hear you upbringing was so difficult and that your family has been so badly impacted. You might consider using my evidence to file a lawsuit. My upbring was fine, The situation around me was deplorable. But it did not adversly affect my imidiate family. Our experiances made us more closle knit. My uncles dived into thier alcoholisim whole heartedly. Even after they were diagnosed with cirrosis they continued to drink. That has to do more with learned behaviour than hypnosis.

And who would I sue? For what? My uncle's ignorance and willfull stubborness? Other peoples' lazyness and unwillingness to change thier situation in life?



Further down that the experimental treatment I proposed, I believe has the potential to CHANGE the way a person feels and want to be "saved". Perhaps this is not ethical in all cases but in many it is.

Hypnotherapy has been tried on sex offenders in the past with less than spectacular results:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FGV/is_1_2/ai_65014124

This page from your website http://algoxy.com/psych/2hypno1.html has a scan that says ( under the text box "who can be hypmotized") "This is because only someone who wants to be hypmotized and who trusts the therapist can truly achieve a trance state. That would seem to contradict you belief that a person can be hypmotized against thier will. Why do you have that on your web site?


I will not pretend that my anxiety is not off the scale. That is the price of knowledge. Then change your personal situation.



Your appraisal of "wrong things and wasting time" or what is "correct" is deficient. Obviously so because you have not read enough, or correctly to inform yourself. From what I've seen so far of your "research" you rely on outdated materials and use sources that contradicts your thoeries. You seem to need to take the advice your giving me.

confirmation of a meeting with the director of the Santa Barbara County Mental Health Department and statement of intent to provide the response of the State Mental Health Departments response to their request to teh State for permission to administer an experimental treatment. (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/confirmsbcomh.jpg)

The letter states that the institution could not perform experimental proceedures.
quote from the letter you posted:
"As we told you we are not able to try experimental treatments.."

They cannot for legal reasons. The administering of experimantal treatments has to go according to state laws.
Try looking here before you go pestering the wrong organization:
http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl?index=117525&query=experimental+treatments

Firstly, that letter is not from me it is to me from the custodian of records at the Santa Barbara County Sherifs Department. I know. I gathered from the Sheriff's response to you that you were asking for documents that were over a hundred years old. As I have said before, for reason concerning practicality and office space, records that old are usually archived at a historical facility such as a university or museum.
I ought to know. I used to work partime for a local historical society while I was going to college. We cataloged and archived documents dating back as recent as 75 years ago from many different sources including the police, sherriff and city govt.


This is a link to a scan of a Declaration from person who saw the suboenaed records in the law library at the county jail one year before they were subpoenaed (http://members.fortunecity.com/nojustice2/images/skuse.jpg) Meaning I knew exactly where the records were before I subpoenaed them.
I'm sorry but the link is broken. I think it's highly unlikely that the sherriff's department would hang on to 150 year old documents.


I've determined the universities have the same problems as the other official entities. I've discovered that psychology has forgotten about forgetting (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/humanmem.jpg), and memory controls our behaviors to a large degree. Dissociation is a phenomena of memory and MUST, reasonably be in the index of this book titled "Human Memory" (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/humanmem2.jpg) Wishfull thinking isn't going to get you anywhere. The books you are refrencing are outdated. The Roberta Klazky book was published in 1979 (2nd ED) The Hawley book you quote from dates back to the 1930's One of the doctors who responed to you even stated that your sources were out of date. Science has advanced in the years the books you use as source were first printed. You should try to update you research once in a while. As time goes on knowleged advances. If you did keep up with research you would know that experimental hypnotic therapy has already been tried on sex offenders with less that expected results. Please try to keep up.

Again homer, read the letter from the Santa Barbara County Mental Health Department (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/confirmsbcomh.jpg) and you will see they are looking for permission from the State to administer the experimental treatment. No it doesn't. it only states that they would pass your request along to the state and that they would discuss the matter further with "representatives form the SDMH" The letter itself does not state that they are asking for permission. If it is stated on another letter, you'll have to show me. Examine California Health and Safety Code Section 1370.4l(b) at http://law.onecle.com/california/health/1370.4.htm and you will see that by law the counties operating under a state health plan MUST conduct experimental treatments under proper conditions. In this case the County Mental health Department Director AND the chief medical doctor for the department elected to work directly with me and my information. It was their superiors that stopped them and failed to respond to the Freedom Of Information Act request, which is why myself and 3 others are suing in Federal court. The link you provided does not show the document you are referring to.



That is true, but that is not what I'm using it to request. I use the Freedom of Information Act to get the response from the State Mental Health Department as promised inthe letter from the County Mental Health Department below, no response. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/foiarequestmh.gif) which is simple information already (or should be) produced. A point you missed, which doesn't matter is that the FOIA does not apply technically to any agencies except for federal agencies. I've discovered that the courts DO apply it to any governmental agency despite what the law reads. You might note that the defendants have not tried to say it does not apply but instead imply, erroneously, that I did not respond within the tolling of time in the process. A person has 20 days to appeal the denial of information AFTER the denial. The county never denied the request so my charges are valid.
Then I'm sure you've read the FOIA site http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/index.html where it states:
"However, agencies may withhold information pursuant to nine exemptions and three exclusions contained in the statute. The FOIA applies only to federal agencies and does not create a right of access to records held by Congress, the courts, or by state or local government agencies. Each state has its own public access laws that should be consulted for access to state and local records."
Anyway, they cannot produce what does not exist. The SDMH probably gave your idea all the consideration it was due. Nothing.
Especially since it was tried before:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FGV/is_1_2/ai_65014124


It should be clear that you do not know what you are doing. Stop trying to critique any of my actions. You are too lazy to research them deeply enough to do so. Also, your reading comprehension is not up to it. My anxiety is my only problem, and you are no help. You are a waste of time, but if I don't answer it might look like you know what you are talking about. You don't. So stop wasting my time.

If you want to help, save the links to the documents regarding the experimental treatment and find some alcoholics or their families and explain to the them how negligent psychology is. Then research your states laws to see if a law exists like 1370.4 (b) and use it to compel the local mental health department to administer the treatment.

It is clear from your websites that you are indeed busy. Unfortunately it is efforts clearly wasted on absolutely frivolous, misguided, outdated, and poorly researched ideas. Besides. Nobody can be hypmotized without thier knowlege or constent.
http://www.brooksidecenter.com/hypnosis_faq.htm
http://www.hypnos.co.uk/hypnomag/whiawiin.htm
http://www.quaysclinic.co.uk/faq.htm
http://www.realhypnosis.com/html-pages/myths&misconceptions.htm
http://www.drcarlbarrister.com/faq.html
http://www.hypnosisgroup.com/hypnosis/index.html

[uruk]

I'm just asking him to use uruk's own screenname, instead of Homer. What's wrong with that?

That's alright. He can call me whatever he wants. It makes no difference to me. It's just a tactic that he thinks is effective. It's just a effective as all his efforts so far to convice people of hypno-telepathic boogie men and concrete cores.

Thanks for your concern though.

[Z]

You didn't have the :socks:.

:(

Chris, please - either define 'near free fall' or retract this claim.

Thank you.

[uruk]

Oops! I took so long to respond that I did not know there was a system going on here.
Anyhoos, After reading his websites about the hypnotizim garbage I think it's best to let this thing go. His delusion are pretty deep and tangled.

[Christophera]

You didn't have the :socks:.

:(

Chris, please - either define 'near free fall' or retract this claim.

Thank you.

ZD, either produce raw evidence to support the steel core columns from the images of the demolition or stop trying to focus on unimportant issues. Thank you.

The thread is also about "realistic explanations" for the rate of fall, what ever it was.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

I have mine, do you have yours

[Christophera]

Oops! I took so long to respond that I did not know there was a system going on here.
Anyhoos, After reading his websites about the hypnotizim garbage I think it's best to let this thing go. His delusion are pretty deep and tangled.

I have proof of Hyper amnesia (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/emomem175.jpeg), do you have proof the research is garbage? I've made an inference from that research that basically implies proof of my claims, can you show my inference is garbage.

Keep in mind every psychologist I've presented it to admitted I had made a valid INFERENCE (http://members.fortunecity.com/nojustice2/2emo6.html). I asked each one to sign a declaration formally stating what that had just informally agreed to and none would. I detected FEAR in their response.

http://members.fortunecity.com/nojustice2/2emo6.html

[bonavada]

The thread is also about "realistic explanations" for the rate of fall, what ever it was.


(my bold)

seems like a tacit implication that free-fall/near free-fall is retracted

BV

[uruk]

I have proof of Hyper amnesia (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/emomem175.jpeg), do you have proof the research is garbage?

The book is 45 years out of date.
You mean post hypnotic amnesia?
http://www.hypnos.co.uk/hypnomag/peltbook/chapter4p4.htm
"Post-hypnotic amnesia is not always complete, even after a deep trance, and there is some evidence to show that it is not real. Scientific tests show that subjects still react to conditioned reflexes, which have been set up during deep hypnosis, in the waking state. If the amnesia were real, they would have forgotten all about them and so remained indifferent."

Sorry for the inadvertant derailing guys. Last post from me untill Chris answers your question. I promise.

Chris Please answer thier question. we'll pick this up later.

[jsfisher]

seems like a tacit implication that free-fall/near free-fall is retracted
I would agree, but Chris needs to agree, too.

By the way, Chris, "near free fall" is a vague term. For it to have meaning, you would need to define it. Otherwise, you should retract the claim that used the term.


ETA the important word, 'but', and an example of non-free fall:
http://www.funnypostcard.com/funny/images/scubie.jpg

[Z]

ZD, either produce raw evidence to support the steel core columns from the images of the demolition or stop trying to focus on unimportant issues. Thank you.

The thread is also about "realistic explanations" for the rate of fall, what ever it was.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

I have mine, do you have yours
So, is that a retraction of the claim 'near free fall'? If so, I pass the socks. If not, please define 'near free fall'.

:socks:

[Christophera]

(my bold)

seems like a tacit implication that free-fall/near free-fall is retracted

BV

Free fall, near free fall, too fast, ......... all are appropriate descriptions, no retractions.

btw, no one here has ever produced raw evidence from the images of the demoltion of the supposed 47, 1300 foot steel core columns, the core you say (rarely) you think existed.

If you say there was no concrete core, and don't say there was a steel core, then you basically say there was no core at all. You support the "air core".

Here is what can only be concrete.

core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/core.corner.arrow.col.jpg)

[Christophera]

The book is 45 years out of date.
You mean post hypnotic amnesia?
http://www.hypnos.co.uk/hypnomag/peltbook/chapter4p4.htm
"Post-hypnotic amnesia is not always complete, even after a deep trance, and there is some evidence to show that it is not real. Scientific tests show that subjects still react to conditioned reflexes, which have been set up during deep hypnosis, in the waking state. If the amnesia were real, they would have forgotten all about them and so remained indifferent."

homer, you forgot to copy and paste this line which follows your copied paragraph! Very imporatant to my point. Good research but poor documentation.
"Nevertheless, after a very deep trance the patient usually maintains that he has no memory of the events"

Sorry for the inadvertant derailing guys. Last post from me untill Chris answers your question. I promise.

Chris Please answer thier question. we'll pick this up later.

Their question was answered 140 pages back.

What you are describing actually says the opposite of what you think it does and supports what I'm saying.

Conditional instructions.

That link is very good, one of the best I've ever seen,

http://www.hypnos.co.uk/hypnomag/peltbook/chapter4p4.htm

"Many apparently ‘occult’ phenomena depend upon these hallucinations."

"Post-hypnotic suggestions may keep their full force for years, and cases have been reported as responding to the suggestion after even twenty years."

"Another important phenomenon of hypnosis is amnesia. The very deep trance is usually followed by amnesia, although this is not always so. It is more likely to occur if suggested by the hypnotist. In any subsequent trance full memory of all that occurred in the first can be obtained. By constant probing and questioning, memory can often be brought back even in the waking state. It was this fact that led Freud to develop psycho-analysis."

INFERENCE ONE (http://members.fortunecity.com/nojustice2/2emo6.html)

thank you homer!

[Z]

Stay on target.

So, Chris, since you seem to be claiming that you're not retracting the 'near free fall' portion - please define what the rate of downward acceleration is for 'near free fall'.

:socks:

[delphi_ote]

btw, no one here has ever produced raw evidence from the images of the demoltion of the supposed 47, 1300 foot steel core columns, the core you say (rarely) you think existed.
We're not getting side tracked. Either discuss your "near free fall" claim or retract it.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/Porkins.jpg
STAY ON TARGET!!!

[Christophera]

Stay on target.

So, Chris, since you seem to be claiming that you're not retracting the 'near free fall' portion - please define what the rate of downward acceleration is for 'near free fall'.

:socks:

I've done this once on each of the 2 previous pages.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2093905#post2093905

But you still haven't produced any raw evidence from the demoliton images of the supposed 47, 1,300 foot columns. Whereas I've shown that they are never seen but concrete shear wall (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif) is.

Is the word "FAIRNESS" wasted on you?

[Christophera]

Either discuss your "near free fall" claim or retract it.


Either support your "47, steel core column" claim or retract it.

Consider this, far better raw evidence exists to prove the towers fell at rates nearly equal to free fall than does for the 47, steel core columns as being extant.

[Z]

I've done this once on each of the 2 previous pages.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2093905#post2093905

But you still haven't produced any raw evidence from the demoliton images of the supposed 47, 1,300 foot columns. Whereas I've shown that they are never seen but concrete shear wall (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corewallspirearrows.gif) is.

Is the word "FAIRNESS" wasted on you?

Chris, acceptable answers are:

1) Define 'near free fall', giving a rate of downward acceleration for comparison.
2) Retract 'near free fall', which eliminates the question in the title of this thread and half of your OP question.

Please, stay on target.

We will NOT discuss any other issues until you have acceptably answered this question, though I will point out that this thread contains more evidence and explanation for the fate of the steel columns than it does explanation of what you mean by 'near free fall'.

Your main tactic appears to be changing the subject when cornered. From now on, that tactic will no longer work.

I'm a Taurus; I'm stubborn. I can go another 188 pages asking you the same question.

This was your initial claim; there is no reason to proceed until that claim has been satisfactorily discussed. Either support your initial claim, or retract it.

[Belz...]

My memory often works better with images and then they trigger recall of verbal.

Are you aware of how unreliable memory can be ?

The same shot was in the 2 hour documentary I saw in 1990. it kept bothering me, as if there was something important about it.

Are you aware that, because of this, you might have "constructed" that memory ? Happens to ME.

If you had any evidence at all you might be able to pretend what you do have compromises the scenario which is assembled that does explain near free fall and total pulverization.

There was no near free fall. This has been explained before. Also, no total pulverization, or can't you see the large chunks of floor concrete in the pictures ?

Your emotional responses to death and lawlessness are inappropriate.

Says the one who appeals to emotion more times than I care to count.

I've been investigating the field of psychology and I've discovered deep negligence and unreasonable, debilitating fears within their ranks. Here is basic evidence proving that.

Convenient. So psychologists are unreliable, therefore you can't consider seeing one.

If NIST states that one fell at just over 10 seconds, to say they fell at near free fall is most accurate. To say We can't determine at what rate the towers fell" is not comprehensive and therefore not accurate.

It was an estimate. We can't see through the dust. Well, I know YOU can.

it is a very minor issue when two towers of that nature fell basically identically completely to the ground with concrete turned to sand and gravel and dust and the heavyest steel in the buildings cut into neat equal lengths.

It's worth mentioning that they were BUILT in neat equal lenghts. When they failed, isn't it reasonable to assume that they'd break BACK into their original size ?

The fact that they did so identically to the ground is ASTOUNDING.

Why ? They were similarily damaged and almost identically constructed. What's so astounding ?

Keep in mind every psychologist I've presented it to admitted I had made a valid INFERENCE. I asked each one to sign a declaration formally stating what that had just informally agreed to and none would. I detected FEAR in their response.

With your mind-probe ?

[bonavada]

thank zd and the others for some order to the "debate" here.
chris it's not that complicated at the moment:-
your quote

The thread is also about "realistic explanations" for the rate of fall, what ever it was


(my bold)

to find "realistic explanations for the rate of fall" we must first deduce what the rate of fall was. how can the debate continue otherwise?
are you saying now that it doesn't matter what the rate of fall was?

BV

[Belz...]

Free fall, near free fall, too fast, ......... all are appropriate descriptions, no retractions.

And yet you say that it's a minor issue, when it's the whole point of the thread.

btw, no one here has ever produced raw evidence from the images of the demoltion of the supposed 47, 1300 foot steel core columns, the core you say (rarely) you think existed.

Irrelevant. Even if said evidence didn't exist, YOU would have the burden of proof to show that the concrete core existed. Unfortunately for you, you've admitted it could be DUST, and not just concrete. Your proof is, therefore, inconclusive.

http://www.hypnos.co.uk/hypnomag/peltbook/chapter4p4.htm

From that site:

There is magic in the mind but it is only to be found in your own mind. With hypnosis, hypnotherapy and self hypnosis we can begin to use that magic for our own good ...

MAGIC ?

[Big Al]

to find "realistic explanations for the rate of fall" we must first deduce what the rate of fall was. how can the debate continue otherwise?
are you saying now that it doesn't matter what the rate of fall was?
BV

Don't you just love seeing the woosters trip themselves up, bonavada? It's interesting that making bizarre, unbelievable assertions and then making abrupt, angry U-turns is a hallmark of paranoid schizophrenia... :D

[bonavada]

It's interesting that making bizarre, unbelievable assertions and then making abrupt, angry U-turns is a hallmark of paranoid schizophrenia... :D

yep christophera's big problem now is during an angry u-turn he's going to meet high-speed well directed traffic coming the other way.
nice to see zd, maccy, + jsfisher injecting some "sanity" into the proceedings. if we can all stick to the guns and hold the format i cannot see how chris can wriggle out the way he has been for months.

no more side tracking chris......will you now retract free-fall/near free-fall?

a decent straight answer would be wonderful. something sadly missing for hundreds of pages

BV

[delphi_ote]

Either support your "47, steel core column" claim or retract it.

Consider this, far better raw evidence exists to prove the towers fell at rates nearly equal to free fall than does for the 47, steel core columns as being extant.
We're not talking about that right now, Chris, and I never made that claim anyway. One subject at a time. We can get to the columns later. Only one issue at a time. We're talking about "near free fall" now.

[delphi_ote]

Consider that it is actually unimportant as to the exact rate of fall. What is importnat is the explanation as to HOW they fell that fast, however fast it was.
Okay. Shall we review, Chris?
This thread is about towers falling near free fall.
If NIST states that one fell at just over 10 seconds, to say they fell at near free fall is most accurate.
It is most accurate to say the towers fell at near free fall because the exact moment they stopped falling cannot be exactly determined.
If you had any evidence at all you might be able to pretend what you do have compromises the scenario which is assembled that does explain near free fall and total pulverization. (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)
I know enough about the uses of high explosives to know that IF there were steel core columns the event of the towers falling at near free fall would have looked (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg) and sounded completely different than they did.
Here is the only feasible and realistic explanation for near free fall and total pulverization.
I noticed the one you support doesn't provide a reasonable explanation for rates of fall near free fall or the fact the towers are pulverized in mid air. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg)
And, I said "near" free fall because there is no real way to know the exact rate. Close is good enough it is all way too fast.
That 2 towers would fall at near free fall speeds almost identically to the ground demands consideration of everything OUTSIDE the official story because due process was violated in dealing with capitol crimes.
I explain near free fall and total pulverization.
Explained near free fall and pulverization.
In the many pages of this thread there is not one logical explanation for near free fall and total pulverization except for what is contained in this link.
The liar haveth not evidence, but I have much evidence, all compiled logically explaining near free fall and total pulverization.
And I could keep going. It seems to me you think that "near free fall" is important, so we're discussing it first before we move on to anything else.

[Gravy]

Apologies to all, but I think we can engage a reasonable discussion on this point - if we move slowly and carefully.zaayr, you are far in the lead for the Most Optimistic Post in the History of the Internet Award. :)

[NobbyNobbs]

I've said I consider 20 seconds to be "near free fall" and that the issue is unimportant compared to the near identical events.

Are you trying to focus on unimportant issues?


Are you now claiming that the rate of fall is an unimportant issue? If so, I'm awfully confused, because your original post is

Maxim:
If a suppossed explantion does not explain the event, it is not the truth. No explanation that does not explain the event can be the truth.

So far no explanation in existence explains free fall and total pulverization of the towers appears to exist. Has anyone seen one?


It seems that your entire reason for starting this thread was to address reasons for the rate of fall. If that is the case and those reasons are to be addressed, then the rate of fall is of primary importance to the discussion.


And thank you to whoever thought up the socks, and to everyone who is keeping this on track. It'd be nice if we could extend this policy to other threads.....

[jsfisher]

I've done this once on each of the 2 previous pages.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2093905#post2093905


Just to be clear, these two prior posts are not responsive answers to the question at hand. They both included a pointer to an off-forum web page and the directions (in effect) "go look here" with no clue for what one would be looking.

Admittedly, the page topic was the physics of gravity, but they did not provide any guidance whatsoever as to what you, Christopher, mean by "near free fall."

[Z]

Heh - the socks idea IS pretty brilliant. I believe that was Delphi who came up with it?

Meanwhile (though I'm sure there's another answer), it seems as if Chris is somewhat intimidated by being held to one point at a time.

Chris... stay with us, man!

[delphi_ote]

Heh - the socks idea IS pretty brilliant. I believe that was Delphi who came up with it?
Well, the inspiration came from jsfisher, actually.
May I suggest a more focussed approach, then. I think the "free-for-all" we have had has given Christophera maximum wiggle room. Facts and rebuttals go ignored because there's always that next post to which Christophera can recycle old claims.
He was right. This thread either needed to get focused or suffer death by mass kittening. I appreciate everyone taking part in this little experiment. It seems like this tactic might work out nicely when we're dealing with someone suffering from a sort of tourette's sydrome with claims.

ETA If we can keep this up to more than one question, I'll try and keep a summary of the questions asked and the answers received. Even if the questioner gives up, it would still be good to let everyone know that the question had already been asked and Chris just refused to answer it. Hopefully that's not the case with this question.

[Z]

Well, the inspiration came from jsfisher, actually.


I sit corrected.

If we can keep this up to more than one question, I'll try and keep a summary of the questions asked and the answers received. Even if the questioner gives up, it would still be good to let everyone know that the question had already been asked and Chris just refused to answer it. Hopefully that's not the case with this question.

I would have already passed the socks, except that this is the PRIMARY reason this thread even exists. Understanding this point is essential; and if Chris is withdrawing this point, there's no reason this thread needs to be open. He can certainly start a new thread...

And maybe spell 'Realistic' right this time...

[Christophera]

And yet you say that it's a minor issue, when it's the whole point of the thread.


Wrong, the explanation for the rate of fall is the point of the thread. If it is not exactly free fall, this is a minor issue. the rate of fall was way too fast.

The official explanation is grossly inadequate and does not make sense.

There is only a limited amount of room in the title field to delineate this.

Cut the selectivity and attempts to derail the point of the thread.

[Z]

Wrong, the explanation for the rate of fall is the point of the thread. If it is not exactly free fall, this is a minor issue. the rate of fall was way too fast.

The official explanation is grossly inadequate and does not make sense.

There is only a limited amount of room in the title field to delineate this.

Cut the selectivity and attempts to derail the point of the thread.


OK, so we can clearly dispense with 'near free fall'... now the claim is 'rate of fall was way too fast'.

I can live with this adjustment, as far as it goes.

Now, what, exactly, is the rate of fall (by which I mean, what is the rate of downward acceleration of main structure members), and what rate of fall is expected during a total structural collapse of this building?

And please hurry - these :socks: are getting stinky....

ETA: I propose the thread title be edited by a moderator to ;'Has Anyone Seen A Realistic Explanation For The Rate Of Collapse Of The Towers', or similar, as a result of his retraction of the 'free fall' and 'near free fall' claims.

[Christophera]

Just to be clear, these two prior posts are not responsive answers to the question at hand. They both included a pointer to an off-forum web page and the directions (in effect) "go look here" with no clue for what one would be looking.

Admittedly, the page topic was the physics of gravity, but they did not provide any guidance whatsoever as to what you, Christopher, mean by "near free fall."

It is not realistic that this should be an issue. This is selectivty which is designed to distract from the point of the thread which is the EXPLANATION.

My web site;

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Provides a realistic explnation for the high rates of fall.

Have you seen a realistic explanation for this phenomena? That is what the threads point is.

[Arus808]

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html



we are asking you by how you came to that conclusion. What mathematic basis do you have behind your claim?

please post your calculations in this thread.

[Christophera]

OK, so we can clearly dispense with 'near free fall'... now the claim is 'rate of fall was way too fast'.

I can live with this adjustment, as far as it goes.

Now, what, exactly, is the rate of fall (by which I mean, what is the rate of downward acceleration of main structure members), and what rate of fall is expected during a total structural collapse of this building?

And please hurry - these :socks: are getting stinky....

ETA: I propose the thread title be edited by a moderator to ;'Has Anyone Seen A Realistic Explanation For The Rate Of Collapse Of The Towers', or similar, as a result of his retraction of the 'free fall' and 'near free fall' claims.

As I've said, the title field only accomodates a certain amount of text. You are attempting to make a non issue, an issue.

It is not your role to decide what is most important in what I ask. Clearly, an explanation is the point not the exact rate.

Clearly, if you read the thread, that the historical posts in the thread accept that I have retracted "free fall" and adjusted it to "nearly free fall" and reasonably so because we simply do not know when the debris stopped falling.

This is not a physics discussion. If I intended it to be such I would have titled the thread, "What is free fall and did the towers do that?" Or something like that.

More pertinant to the gist of the issue is the strcuture that fell too fast. I'm certain FEMA lied. If you knew about materials you would know that steel core columns cannot be cut to fall instantly.

the underlying issue is the concrete core,

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

because concrete can be fractured to fall instantly. THSI FACTOR can EXPLAIN the high rate of fall. So the thread has been anturally an properly focused and your attempts to re focus it are diversionary tactic.

[Christophera]

we are asking you by how you came to that conclusion. What mathematic basis do you have behind your claim?

please post your calculations in this thread.

It is not mathematical and it does not need to be. In fact, that would be tremendously involved. None of us could handle it.

It is common sense and knowledge. If you've got it and can use it you may be capable of arguing reasonably here.

[Christophera]

He was right. This thread either needed to get focused or suffer death by mass kittening.

That is a spam threat.