Heres a hard proposition..If you lost your child..would you ask God for help..

[De_Bunk]

I dunno...

I don't believe in God...

Not at all....

But.. to be honest,...i think i would....

Is that the question of belief...????

Maybe i shouldn't play over here...

But its still a valid question...

DB

[Dancing David]

Depends I wouldn't pray to JHC or JHVH, but I would pray. Prayer is beneficial even to skeptics.

Funk On

[Wile E. Coyote]

I probably would at this point.

Probably just from habit.

Probably just to make myself feel better, like I had some sort of control over a terrible situation.

Not because I thought it would do any good.

[Nyarlathotep]

Your question is really a variant of the old 'are there any atheists in foxholes?' argument. And I have always held that the answer is going to vary not only from person to person but also from time to time. Intellectually, I would like to think I would be too busy doing things that might actually help find my kid. I wouldn't have time to pray.

On the other hand, until one is in that situation (and luckily I never have been), I couldn't say 100% for sure

[Barkhorn1x]

No I honestly would not as I 've never seen is a shred of evidence that I shows me I would receive any aid that way.

Like Nyarlathotep, I would concentrate my energies on practical steps that would get my child found rather than waste time on special pleading to the fairy sky-god.

Barkhorn.

[Skeptical Greg]

Nope..

[Yahzi]

Wouldn't Santa Claus be a better choice? I mean, he has that list, and he sees them when they're sleeping and awake. And SC makes regular appearences every year, as opposed to certain deities that haven't been seen since a certain bush burnt down.

I think I'd ask Santa Claus first.

[synaesthesia]

There's no way that I would appeal to God. Despite the smugly confident assurances of many people, perhaps in part because of them, there's not the least possibility. I might suffer to the point of hallucinations, but I would hallucinate twelve-headed-bugbladderbeasts rather than God.

[Mercutio]

As N'tep said, one never knows until one is there, but...It is my belief that not only would I not ask god for help, I would encourage my helpers not to waste time with prayers that would be better spent looking for my kid.

Reminds me of the miners trapped in the coal mine last year. Everybody was calling for prayer; I was hoping that at least one person would actually do some work. I noticed they thanked god an awful lot, but nobody thanked the teachers & researchers responsible for the GPS technology. I suppose, for future disaster reference, they should emulate that rescue; for that purpose, we need to find out exactly what each person's prayers were. Forget the triginometry involved, which sect tipped the scales?

[billydkid]

I've seen essentially this same question a bunch of different times cloaked in different ways. We are all human. In times of stress and turmoil and sorrow and great difficulty we all grasp at straws. That this suggests anything significant other than the fact that we we are human and vulnerable I seriously doubt. I know that self righteous "believers" find great satisfaction at the notion of a despicable athiest crying out to "god" in the face of tragedy. Far more telling about the believers than about the atheists.

[justsaygnosis]

This is one of many problems with religious inconsistencies.
If you and your child should be together why would this god allow the two of you to be seperated?
The reasonable deduction is random and unpredictable occurrences happen.
They're not the will of god.
Elizabeth Smart wasn't spotted by an angel, a real flesh and blood human being spotted her and called real flesh and blood police.
Unfortunately there are hundreds of children missing, some for many years and no one knows their whereabouts.
An injured fish moves differently than a healthy fish so a predator fish detects them more readily and eats them.
If psychics can pick up 'vibrations', a kidnapped child should be akin to a beacon of bad vibes yet we all know the success rate of psychics locating lost children. I'll go out with a well trained search and rescue dog before a psychic any day of the week.
As for praying I agree that duress may make the notion seem more palatable than calmer times but counseling is a better bet. At least a counselor will answer you and give you advice on how to cope; they can even get you a prescription for tranquilizers to ease the strain.

[Hazelip]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
But its still a valid question...



Really now... You're actually proposing that a silly hypothetical (all hypothetical are silly, actually) is a valid question? Do you really think everyone here is a Dukakis?

[Dymanic]

Losing a child is a mind-altering experience. You can't really predict what you'd be thinking or feeling. It's like asking, "If you did Jimson weed and acid together, would you have conversations with the furniture?"

I lost a child some years ago, back before my 'spiritual quest' (or is it a logical quest?) brought me to where I am now (atheism).

I did some stuff you might call praying during that time, but what I really wanted was to get my hands around The Bastard's neck (I guess He has a neck... let's see...made in His image...yep. Neck for sure.)

I think Yahzi's idea is absolutely brilliant. Santa makes much better sense.

[peptoabysmal]

This is precisely the kind of human frailty that religion preys upon.

[evildave]

Then there are those who define "prayer" so widely and wildly that just HOPING your kids are OK is "prayer".

When viewed through this lens (or funhouse mirror) naturally, every statement like "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems valid.

It's like asking "Gosh, wouldn't you cry if your kids went missing? Wouldn't you pray ALONG with your spouse is they asked you to, in order to comfort them?" and then shouting triumphantly: "YOU ARE PRAYING! I WIN!"

Or perhaps another way to look at this would be to make the claim that ALL people who play the lottery (or otherwise gamble) don't understand math. Then you could claim that a math teacher isn't qualified to teach anything at all about arithmetic because they spent a pocket full of quarters in Vegas.

[KelvinG]

I've always said that if I was on a plane and it was heading out of control to the ground, I would quickly convert and start praying like crazy. Does that mean I believe that there is a God who listens and possibly answers prayers.
Absolutely not.
It means that I am human, and intense fear or desperation can lead to otherwise improbable acts.

In fact, such last minute desperation might bode well as an argument against faith in God. Do think there are any Christians on plummeting airplanes who sit back comfortably and say "I'm not worried. God is real and I'm going to heaven. No need to freak out." If one truly had 100% faith, wouldn't a fear of death reaction be pointless? But, of course, the Christian is human just like me. The same sense of desperation that would cause me to start praying, would cause the Christian to freak out just as much.

Desperate emotions can cause desperate acts. It shouldn't lessen my disbelief in God or a Christian's belief.

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by KelvinG
I've always said that if I was on a plane and it was heading out of control to the ground

I would start yelling "AH hahaha, there is no God to save you now!"

And some would know it's true.

[hammegk]

A prayer requesting strength to endure -- made to 'the center of Good Orderly Direction' -- may at minimum help with one's ability to cope.

Has anyone seen any studies on biochem-neuronal changes occasioned by "prayer"?

[DialecticMaterialist]

No.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
No.

http://www.psychjournal.com/interviews/Vol_3_03_Newberg_1.htm

All bs? The article does disagree with you. ;)


Er, or was the "no" in response to the original question?

[evildave]

Oh, I'm certain that pretending there's "a way out" can make you feel better when it's certain you're gonna die.

And naturally there will be "biochemical reactions" to prayer. There are "biochemical reactions" to eating CHOCOLATE, too.

Is chocolate prayer?

Some say yes. Of course, some people say chocolate is better than gods (http://www.catalaw.com/detox/better.shtml).

[Baker]

If you have already lost the child it would be to late to pray shouldn’t the question be if your child was dieing would you pray to god in hopes it might save him.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Baker
If you have already lost the child it would be to late to pray shouldn’t the question be if your child was dieing would you pray to god in hopes it might save him.
That would depend on the usage of "lost". It would also depend on the usage of "help".

Perhaps De_Bunk would like to clarify.

[Pyrrho]

Yes, De_Bunk, I'd ask God for help, and then I'd go out hunting. I'd ask everyone and everything for help...I'd even ask Invisible Pink Unicorns for help...even knowing that it wouldn't make a difference. If my child was lost it would be no time for me to stand on philosophical principles.

And heaven help the perpetrator, 'cause then I'd be asking the Devil for help.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by evildave
.....naturally there will be "biochemical reactions" to prayer. There are "biochemical reactions" to eating CHOCOLATE, too.

Is chocolate prayer?



No, but chocolate is a perceived-as-physical thing, and iirc does effect brain biochem.

Is prayer chocolate? I guess a materialist must say it's a result of a prior neuronal-biochem change. Weird huh?


On topic, yes.

[FaithlessInTx]

I doubt it. I might meditate, though. Especially after reading so much Buddhist lit. lol

My daugher was born about 6 or 7 weeks early and had to spend some time in the NICU becuase she couldn't breath right. I know, that's not as life threatening as a child born with a bad heart or many other things but a new mother who has just given birth isn't that rational (or at least I wasn't). Anyway, to answer the question. No, praying never entered my mind. Honestly, not the entire time she was in the hospital.

Here's another example. When I was 18 years old I almost drowned in Missouri. My canoe got sucked up against a huge tree that was in the water. The boat flipped and I went with it. I ended up being wedged (face down) to the bottom of the river with a boat and a tree on top of me. My brain went straight to action plans not gods. I remember thinking... well sh** I"m NOT dying this way!" (I"m stubborn lol) Then I fought the boat, tree and rocky riverbed till I dewedged myself. Damn that was horrible. I had nasty bruises and screw holes dug in my back for at least a month after that. :eek:

[evildave]

Originally posted by hammegk


No, but chocolate is a perceived-as-physical thing, and iirc does effect brain biochem.

Is prayer chocolate? I guess a materialist must say it's a result of a prior neuronal-biochem change. Weird huh?


On topic, yes.

Yes, and depression (also a "purely mental" thing, as well as a "purely biochemical" thing) is treated by medication. One of the nifty things with a state machine built using chemicals. Thinking "what a nice day it is today" is also a biochemical effect.

So, perhaps chocolate == prayer.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Er, or was the "no" in response to the original question?

No in response to the original question.

[Peach Jr.]

I'm not sure what I would do if that happened. By the way, that's one of the things that keeps me awake at night now - the fear of losing our baby.

I would like to think that I would look for help from somebody who I know exists. Like a police officer or a group of neighbors.

But if the worst were to happen - anything is possible. I might even reach out to Santa or Barney for their help if I was desperate enough.

[jimmygun]

I can't for the life of me figure out why believers pray so why would I, an atheist? If someone offered to pray for my lost child I would reply,"Get off your lazy knees and actually contribute something useful to the search."

[evildave]

Like say maybe, "Here's a stack of fliers with the picture, description, name, tip hotline, etc. Take it to your church and circulate it. Maybe while you and your friends are praying, look at the picture and try to remember if you've seen him/her."

Something like that. No reason to alienate someone who's offering help, even if it's utterly ineffective help. At least with THIS technique, you can give some slight guidance to the way you'd like the prayer channelled.

[TylerD]

If I lost my child, I'd ask the police for help. Not some nonexistent God.

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Yes, De_Bunk, I'd ask God for help, and then I'd go out hunting. I'd ask everyone and everything for help...I'd even ask Invisible Pink Unicorns for help...even knowing that it wouldn't make a difference. If my child was lost it would be no time for me to stand on philosophical principles.

And heaven help the perpetrator, 'cause then I'd be asking the Devil for help.

To De_Bunk and Perro:

WHat is your opinion about the believers in God and prayers?

[Cinorjer]

No, of course I wouldn't ask God for help. I suppose it might help the Believers feel like they're not totally helpless, but since I'm not a believer, it would not help my state of mind one bit. My energy would be put into doing whatever I could to locate my child.

Feeling helpless is terrible. Our minds will latch onto almost anything just to be thinking that we're doing SOMETHING about the situation. Psychics know this. Preachers know this. I won't deny anyone their right to a little comfort in times of trial, but in my case I'd have a real problem begging an all-powerful God for help, when that God put my child in danger in the first place.

Jerry

Does the proposition is valid for other relatives?