Law lets (forces?) God into Ohio schools

[MrMonty]

from Friday, May 26th's Cleveland Plain Dealer (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1148632309130040.xml&coll=2)

I was surprised not to find a topic on this already.

So, the bill says that it is required, as long as someone donates them, to display the State motto, "With God all things are possible" and the National motto, "In God we trust."

The governor is expected to sign the bill into law.

The ACLU, of course, is fighting it.

I heard on the radio that some religious group has said they'll make sure every classroom in the state has a donated copy to display.

A choice quote from the article: "The goal is to make sure that students have a basis to talk about the historical aspects of how this country was founded," said state Rep. Keith Faber, who sponsored the bill.

"I don't think the mottoes are necessarily religiously based," the western Ohio Republican said.

Sure.... Thems po' kids would have to open a book or sumtin' to be able to talk about how this country were founded, and we don' want that. That second statement is just ridiculous. He's probably using the old "It doesn't specify which God" excuse to justify how it's not "religiously based."

The real problem in all this is the mottoes themselves should be changed. A minister tried to fight that battle some years ago to get the state motto changed. Not sure how it ended, but obviously he didn't get anywhere with it.


Monty

[andyandy]

it's kinda hard to understand the furoe.......

if i've got this right.....

these are the US's and Ohio state's mottos yeah?

and they're not normally allowed in school?? :confused:

[MrMonty]

it's kinda hard to understand the furoe.......

if i've got this right.....

these are the US's and Ohio state's mottos yeah?

and they're not normally allowed in school?? :confused:

Some people might object to them being prominently displayed in every classroom. This law would prevent anyone from objecting to them being displayed, actually forcing them to be displayed if they're donated. The donated part must be so people won't scream about their tax dollars being wasted on countless copies of mottoes, I believe they have to be framed, having to be hung in every classroom. Especially when a kid could easily open his textbook and read them, assuming one can't memorize it after hearing it once or twice. Not to mention, pull out any coinage if one wants to see the US motto.

In the schools I've been in, the State and National Mottoes might be found somewhere like the main office, in classrooms where Politics is regularly taught, or displayed when a class is currently discussing state history. I've seen Catholic schools where the US motto is painted on the gym wall in 3ft high lettering, but that's a private religious school where they cherish any chance they get to bring God and Jesus into the kids lives.

Monty

[Tony]

"The goal is to make sure that students have a basis to talk about the historical aspects of how this country was founded," said state Rep. Keith Faber, who sponsored the bill.

It's amazing that a "lawmaker" can be so ignorant of American History. Also, since when is "In God we Trust" the national motto?

[BPSCG]

It's amazing that a "lawmaker" can be so ignorant of American History. Also, since when is "In God we Trust" the national motto?Since 1956, unfortunately :(... Before that, it was E pluribus unum. I wish we could go back to the old one, since a lot of us seem to have forgotten its significance along the way.

[Art Vandelay]

I wonder if any teachers are being named as parties. Seems to me that they would have rather good standing for challenging this. As well as the pledge of allegiance.

[Beerina]

Hmmmm...wasn't there a SC ruling that "In God We Trust" was a meaningless cultural thing and not really religious? Looks like that buffoonery has come home to roost.

[MrMonty]

Hmmmm...wasn't there a SC ruling that "In God We Trust" was a meaningless cultural thing and not really religious?

A quick google search turns up this site (http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm) that says the SC has avoided ruling on it but has stated "[o]ur previous opinions have considered in dicta the motto and the pledge [of allegiance], characterizing them as consistent with the proposition that government may not communicate an endorsement of religious belief." Allegheny, 492 U.S.That page gives a complete history of the National motto, and IMO is an interesting read.

Also, here's an article (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/16/national/main279473.shtml) that covers the challenge in 2001, by the Presbyterian minister Matthew Peterson, that the Ohio Motto wasn't constitutional. On Rev. Peterson's losing the decision 9-4, Rep. Voinovich had this to say:This is great news. It really makes you believe that things are right with the world.In that ruling, as long as no connection was made to the New Testament where the motto was directly lifted from, it is considered constitutional.

The lengths people go to, to protect their beliefs, in the face of rational argument... it's amazing to me. It's a disheartening feeling that these high ranking judges, supposedly the most unbiased and just people we can find, act this way. It scares me to know that if I were facing any sort of criminal charges that, because of their obvious religious bias, my lack of religion would most definitely be a factor in their judgments despite it having no bearing on the facts of a case.

Monty

[chulbert]

This seems unlikely to survive a Constitutional challenge.

How the state obtained the materials, either through purchase or donation, should be only a minor consideration. The state is still endorsing the message by posting them on its property.

[MrMonty]

This seems unlikely to survive a Constitutional challenge.

In the link I posted above, they point out that the Supreme Court has probably avoided the issue since it might be embarrasing to them because it's prominently displayed in their courtroom. I figure the same is true of the Ohio Motto and Ohio's courthouses. Many of those buildings have the national or state mottoes carved in stone on or in the building itself.

Heck, that case by Rev. Peterson was catalyzed by such an instance.In May 1996, after returning from a trip to India where he saw the motto "Government Work Is God's Work" inscribed on a public building, Governor Voinovich recommended to the Board that the state motto be inscribed above the main entrance to the statehouse. In November, 1996, the Board adopted a modified version of the governor's recommendation and decided to engrave the state seal and motto on a granite plaza at the west entrance of the statehouse. The state seal and ribbon-like device bearing the motto, which the state proposes to install at the Capitol Square Plaza, will be made of bronze and embedded in a granite pavement at ground level. The combined display will be ten feet, nine inches by twelve feet, four inches. The letters of the motto will be six to eight inches in height.

Plaintiffs seek a declaratory judgment declaring the motto unconstitutional, and they request a permanent injunction enjoining the defendants from displaying the motto on the Capitol Square Plaza and from using it in any official way in the future.

Monty

[pounce]

yeah, being in ohio - this kind of thing irks me. i'd sure like to see a little less religion in schools and government. what an obnoxious state motto we have here. ugh.

[pgwenthold]

The lengths people go to, to protect their beliefs, in the face of rational argument... it's amazing to me.

On one hand, they argue, what's the big deal? It's not really about religion anyway.

But as soon as someone tries to prevent it, then they are all up in arms about taking god out of our society.