From a former anti-war soldier

[DialecticMaterialist]

I took this post from a message board on a thread saying "War on Iraq equals genocide", one of firece debate.

Well, again my $.02

Since I'm actually writing this from a cot located within a tent somewhere in Northern Iraq, I have more of a personal interest in the things that go on here. I can honestly tell you that before I was deployed over here, I was against this war. Not a very 'patriotic' or 'soldierly' view for a military member, I assure you, and since I'm in an ultra-conservative and patriotic unit, I pretty much kept my mouth shut, and 'closed the blinds', so to say.

I'm glad I did.

Once over here, it's amazing. The news reports that you see about people welcoming us 'with open arms'? It's not just propaganda. When we drive down the street, people come out of their hovels (sanctions, although necessary, were hard on the people here) to greet us, waving, even offering us some of what little meager trinkets they can in a show of gratitude. You must understand, these people have NOTHING. Most of thier 'gas stations' are merely plastic jugs on the sides of roads, infrequently used due to an overall lack of traffic because few can afford automobiles. And this in one of the richest oil-producing areas in the world...

And the children. Just seeing the looks on their faces when we drive by, when they realize that they might now stand a chance to live a free life, and finally have access to the basic necessities of life, such as food, water, shelter, etc. The smiles on their faces, their shy waves, their gratitude; this is that makes all of this worthwhile in my opinion.

Like I said, I started out against this war, for many of the same reasons that some of you posted. But I've had my eyes open, and can now see that whatever the reasons we're here, it's for the best.

[Mr Manifesto]

sanctions, although necessary, were hard on the people here

(emphasis added)

Comedy is not dead.

[Tony]

Another meaningless post by Ms. Manifesto.

[Mr Manifesto]

I also wonder how he wrote it on a cot in Northern Iraq? One soldier I knew had to use snail mail and didn't have access to a computer until he got to near Kuwait.

I am willing to be wrong on this. I'm not in Iraq so I don't know who has access to computers and who doesn't. What I do know is that each soldier is not issue a laptop with a mobile phone. The skeptic in me is raising an eyebrow.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony
Another meaningless post by Ms. Manifesto.

What's wrong Tony... Can't find a link that tells you what your opinion is?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


What's wrong Tony... Can't find a link that tells you what your opinion is?

No, I cant, do you know where I can find one? :D

[Earthborn]

Not a very 'patriotic' or 'soldierly' view for a military member, I assure youI think it is strange that someone would consider their own opinion to be unpatriotic or unsoldierly...It's not just propaganda.But it is not impossible that this letter is propaganda itself.And the children. Just seeing the looks on their faces when we drive by, when they realize that they might now stand a chance to live a free life, and finally have access to the basic necessities of life, such as food, water, shelter, etc.Here the writer of the letter is trying to read the minds and intentions of the kids he meets. I think most likely the kids are smiling because they think: "Cool, tanks!"But I've had my eyes open, and can now see that whatever the reasons we're here, it's for the best.Let's hope the families of the 4065-5223 civilians (from here (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm)) who died because of this war feel the same way.

Sadly enough, that's almost double the amount of the people who were killed at the moment this war supposedly ended... :(

[Mr Manifesto]

Many Iraqi civilians inconveniently do not die straight away when shot or blown up. I believe American soldiers are still on a hair trigger in Iraq, too. Never mind the amount of people who have died because of the chaos Iraq is in.

Yes, the best thing that could have happened to Iraq was being blown up by America. I only wish America would blow up my country too so I can share the good times.

[Earthborn]

Many Iraqi civilians inconveniently do not die straight away when shot or blown up. (snip) Never mind the amount of people who have died because of the chaos Iraq is in.But those deaths are not counted by that website, as they are more difficult to count. Click on Methodology to read how the casualties are counted: I can't think of a more conservative way to estimate civilian casualties. No doubt there must be more because of the reasons you mention. :(

[UnrepentantSinner]

This letter sums up how a lot of people who felt ambivalent about the timing feel about the ultimate results.

I still question the timing, and we're really dropping the ball on peace (so far), but imagine what it must be like to have wondered for 20 years "what happened to my brother Hassan" and finally being able to find out.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Here the writer of the letter is trying to read the minds and intentions of the kids he meets. I think most likely the kids are smiling because they think: "Cool, tanks!"

You say that the writer is "trying to read the mind of the kids". Then in the next sentence you do the exact damn thing!!!!

[Earthborn]

Yes, Tony, that is true.

However, I do not claim that this is the reason these kids are smiling, I said that I think it is. Subtle difference.

I also think my interpretation is more likely. Just imagine you are a kid and tanks start rolling into your streets. Would you think: "I realize that I might now stand a chance to live a free life, and finally have access to the basic necessities of life, such as food, water, shelter, etc." or would you think "Cool, tanks!" ? :)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Yes, Tony, that is true.

However, I do not claim that this is the reason these kids are smiling, I said that I think it is. Subtle difference.

I also think my interpretation is more likely. Just imagine you are a kid and tanks start rolling into your streets. Would you think: "I realize that I might now stand a chance to live a free life, and finally have access to the basic necessities of life, such as food, water, shelter, etc." or would you think "Cool, tanks!" ? :)

I dunno, if I was a kid it would depend on what my parents told me. If they told me the tanks and soldiers were "bad people" and that they were coming to hurt us, I would be scared ****-less. However, if they told me the tanks and soldiers were "good people" and were coming to help us, I would be happy. If I was a kid.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tony
Another meaningless post by Ms. Manifesto.

You should put him on the "short bus" list like I did.

[Earthborn]

I dunno, if I was a kid it would depend on what my parents told me. If they told me the tanks and soldiers were "bad people" and that they were coming to hurt us, I would be scared ****-less.Now you are empathizing in their situation!

Now suppose your were told by your parents that these are bad people coming to hurt you. But you are one of those mischievous kids who tries to do everything your parents warned you against. ("Remember: don't play with fire!" makes you think "Where can I get a lighter?")
If you are a kid like that, you probably would want to see for yourself just how bad these bad people are. Although you are scared you go out to look at them, see the inherent coolness of the tanks. Filled with a mixture of pleasure and fear you laugh nervously and you wave to attract the attention of those bad people... But when of them looks in your direction from his menacing military goggles you quickly run out of the way...

Then one of these soldiers misinterpretes your behavior as shyness and happiness and thinks you must have behaved in this way because according to him you believe you "now stand a chance to live a free life, and finally have access to the basic necessities of life, such as food, water, shelter, etc."...

I don't claim it happened exactly like that. I just say that this interpretation is more likely IMHO.However, if they told me the tanks and soldiers were "good people" and were coming to help us, I would be happy. If I was a kid.After having recieved bombs from these people, which filled the hospitals with dead and injured people, how many parents will tell their kids that these are 'good people coming to help us', do you think?but imagine what it must be like to have wondered for 20 years "what happened to my brother Hassan" and finally being able to find out.I can only imagine that it must feel great! And at the same time, I would think: "was this all worth it to find out?" This war did hurt many people, and at the same time many (often the same people) will benefit from it.

I think we should not only emphasize the benefits or the misery caused and realize that most of these people will mostly feel confusion...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Now you are empathizing in their situation!

Now suppose your were told by your parents that these are bad people coming to hurt you. But you are one of those mischievous kids who tries to do everything your parents warned you against. ("Remember: don't play with fire!" makes you think "Where can I get a lighter?")
If you are a kid like that, you probably would want to see for yourself just how bad these bad people are. Although you are scared you go out to look at them, see the inherent coolness of the tanks. Filled with a mixture of pleasure and fear you laugh nervously and you wave to attract the attention of those bad people... But when of them looks in your direction from his menacing military goggles you quickly run out of the way...



You're reaching.


After having recieved bombs from these people, which filled the hospitals with dead and injured people, how many parents will tell their kids that these are 'good people coming to help us', do you think?

I give these people more credit than that, this is something a pathetic anti-war protester would say. Unlike the anti-war morons, these people understand the benefits for their country and the future if Hussien is removed. And after 30 years of living under hussien's boot, I would be willing to assume they are desperate for liberation and would sacrifice for it. Check this out. (http://assyrianchristians.com/i_was_wrong_mar_26_03.htm)


Furthermore,

If they hate saddam, it seems logical to assume the parents would tell the kids the soldiers are there to help them.

[DialecticMaterialist]

I think it is strange that someone would consider their own opinion to be unpatriotic or unsoldierly...


Why? Never heard of hindsight?

Here the writer of the letter is trying to read the minds and intentions of the kids he meets. I think most likely the kids are smiling because they think: "Cool, tanks!"

So plausible, nevermind that you don't even know if he is in a tank....

Let's hope the families of the 4065-5223 civilians (from here) who died because of this war feel the same way.

Oh the body count from such an objective research institute?

In any event how would I feel if they backed down from freeing me from totalitarianism just because 4,000 people would die via accidental bombings?

Not very good. This war has saved the freedom, lives and futures of millions.

I wonder how people in Japan felt about losing family members to the allies...not good? Guess that means we should have left them fascist.

[Earthborn]

Why? Never heard of hindsight?Yes, I have. I still can't imagine why anyone would think their own reservations against military action would be unpatriotic. Do you think people should consider all of their own questions on government policies to be unpatriotic?So plausible, nevermind that you don't even know if he is in a tank....Indeed, I don't. I just assumed it. Not quite unlikely that he did move in a military vehicle of some kind that resembles a tank, since I doubt he moved around on a bicycle.Oh the body count from such an objective research institute?Do you know a more objective research institute? Have you read their Methodology and can you come up with an even more objective methodology they are using?In any event how would I feel if they backed down from freeing me from totalitarianism just because 4,000 people would die via accidental bombings?

Not very good.You would not even worry and ask "were these 4000 deaths actually necessary?" or "Couldn't it be done with less?"This war has saved the freedom, lives and futures of millions.Yes, let's hope so.I wonder how people in Japan felt about losing family members to the allies...not good?I wonder how people in Japan felt about hundreds of thousands of people vaporized, millions made homeless, many suffering from radiation sickness, two huge cities simply obliterated from the face of the earth... Good? Not likely. They may have been glad their oppressive regime fell, but they certainly didn't immediately trusted the Americans. That trust came very slowly afterwards. A job well done! Of all the people of the world, none have as much good reason to hate the Americans as the Japanese. The fact that they don't, proves that peace and liberation are possible.

Let's hope history repeats itself in Iraq.fascistHey, 'fascist' always was the way extreme leftists call rightist. How did that change? :)

[RandFan]

The most significant and telling things that I have seen come out of Iraq are the people who are franticly searching for lost loved ones. They are searching in sewers and under the desert for hidden prisons. Thousands are lost and there is finally some hope that the truth will come out as to what happened to these people.

Sadly we are finding mass graves and not hidden prisons. I guess the human desire to believe that loved ones are still alive is so powerful that they will cling to anything.

There is no doubt in my mind that the deaths of the Iraqis from the war pale in comparison to those who were killed weekly by Saddam's regime. And this of course does not take into account the thousands that were and the thousands that would have been tortured.

I suspect that the letter is a fake. That the murders and torture of Iraqis has stopped is a reality

[DialecticMaterialist]

Yes, I have. I still can't imagine why anyone would think their own reservations against military action would be unpatriotic. Do you think people should consider all of their own questions on government policies to be unpatriotic?

Nope. That's kinda an ad homined. The man just considered his own questioning unpatriotic it seems.



Indeed, I don't. I just assumed it. Not quite unlikely that he did move in a military vehicle of some kind that resembles a tank, since I doubt he moved around on a bicycle.

Ok, and according to the reactions they seemed grateful and no just amazed. Your suggestion is far fetched.


Do you know a more objective research institute?

A nit defensive. But I'll play along, Fox news for starters. ;)


Have you read their Methodology and can you come up with an even more objective methodology they are using?

They seemed like a rather small, very biased group. The plain dropping bombs in the background didn't help much.


Not very good.You would not even worry and ask "were these 4000 deaths actually necessary?" or "Couldn't it be done with less?"

"Necessary" I suppose they wouldn't be absolutely necessary if we for example were willing to risk our own men. Reagrdless I'd say only 4k dead was a great job. Sure they could have killed less but at great risk to themselves. If anything I'd be understanding if they killed far more.



I wonder how people in Japan felt about hundreds of thousands of people vaporized, millions made homeless, many suffering from radiation sickness, two huge cities simply obliterated from the face of the earth... Good? Not likely. They may have been glad their oppressive regime fell, but they certainly didn't immediately trusted the Americans. That trust came very slowly afterwards.

Well that is how societies work. You don't trust a former enemy immediately, bomb or no bomb. And what of the millions of soldiers who actually died in the war under fascist orders? Or the entire nation being opressed far into the future?

Is being vaporized so much worse then being shot?

What you don't seem to consider is the tens and hundreds of millions that are now free in one of the most successful countries in the world today. The fact that the Nukes headed off Soviet invasion and intensive bombing campaigns against all of Japan.


A job well done! Of all the people of the world, none have as much good reason to hate the Americans as the Japanese. The fact that they don't, proves that peace and liberation are possible.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. But I think the Japanese have more reason to like us then hate us. We freed them, and we gave them a democracy.

We helped them rebuild their nation after a war. Something pretty rare and unprecedented. Do you think if Japan beat us they would have helped us rebuild? They would have given us a democracy?

If anything I think the fact that don't hate us does not prove that they have "reason to" but that they realize they are better off now because of the US and even because of the Atom Bombs.

We could have done what every other power does after a big war: conquer and loot. The US did not, despite the fact that Japan did that to other nations it conquered. The US instead liberated and helped them.

"They should hate you."

"They obviously don't."

"Well that's cause peace and liberation are possible."

Fitting the facts to the theory like a square peg to a round hole.

Let's hope history repeats itself in Iraq.


Yes now that Saddam is gone Iraq may have a future. Time will tell.



Hey, 'fascist' always was the way extreme leftists call rightist. How did that change?

I have no idea of how that is relevant to the issue. Are you saying right-wingers think that fascists do not exist? Or its a smear word abused by liberals? Was the above supposed to amuse me?

If so, then I got to tell you I'm not really a right-winger and I didn't find it very clever.

[Earthborn]

The man just considered his own questioning unpatriotic it seems.And that's what I think is strange about it. I don't claim to have evidence or even have an opinion on whether the letter is fake or not, but I do consider the possibility that it is a letter actually written by a pro-war soldier for propagandandistic purposes.Ok, and according to the reactions they seemed grateful and no just amazed.According to what the author of the letter perceived the reaction to be...They seemed like a rather small, very biased group.Yes, they are. They are biased against the war. And they can back up every single casualty by a multitude of sources."Necessary" I suppose they wouldn't be absolutely necessary if we for example were willing to risk our own men. Reagrdless I'd say only 4k dead was a great job. Sure they could have killed less but at great risk to themselves. If anything I'd be understanding if they killed far more.So when liberating a people from a dictator it is preferable to kill many of those who suffer from that dictator than to risk some of your own men? I don't know whether I like that logic... :( Well that is how societies work. You don't trust a former enemy immediately, bomb or no bomb.Exactly. Which makes me very skeptical that many Iraqi parents told their children the US-led forces are there to help...What you don't seem to consider is the tens and hundreds of millions that are now free in one of the most successful countries in the world today.If you would read carefully and not just assume that you are against what I say, you would see that I do consider them.But I think the Japanese have more reason to like us then hate us. We freed them, and we gave them a democracy.

We helped them rebuild their nation after a war. Something pretty rare and unprecedented. Do you think if Japan beat us they would have helped us rebuild? They would have given us a democracy?

If anything I think the fact that don't hate us does not prove that they have "reason to" but that they realize they are better off now because of the US and even because of the Atom Bombs.Except for 'they are better off because of the Atom bombs' that's pretty much my point. No country in the world suffered more from US military actions as Japan. But because the US did something right after them, the Japanese don't hate the US."They should hate you."I didn't say the Japanese should hate the Us, I said that they have more reason to than any other people in the world. But they don't.

That's something the Osamas and Saddams of the world should realize... That the Japanese have more reason to hate America then they have, and since they don't hate America, neither should they.Or its a smear word abused by liberals?Well, yes. Never heard it?Was the above supposed to amuse me?Maybe. :)

[DialecticMaterialist]

And that's what I think is strange about it. I don't claim to have evidence or even have an opinion on whether the letter is fake or not, but I do consider the possibility that it is a letter actually written by a pro-war soldier for propagandandistic purposes.

Well that's certainly at odds with some logical principles but oh well. In any event I feel my thoughts to be unpatriotic at times, but I realize patriotism isn't everything.



According to what the author of the letter perceived the reaction to be...

Ah yes, but what he has seems to be more then what you have (armchair plasubilities).



Yes, they are. They are biased against the war. And they can back up every single casualty by a multitude of sources.

And so can every other fringe group out there, even extremists for the war.



So when liberating a people from a dictator it is preferable to kill many of those who suffer from that dictator than to risk some of your own men? I don't know whether I like that logic...

It's prefferable to find a reasonable balance between ending the war swiftly, keeping your own men safe and keeping civilian casualities down. I believe all things being equal, the former two outweigh the latter.



Exactly. Which makes me very skeptical that many Iraqi parents told their children the US-led forces are there to help...

They may not have considered us the enemy. I imagine many Iraqis still distrust us as well.



If you would read carefully and not just assume that you are against what I say, you would see that I do consider them.

Not really. You give a quick mention of it and then rant on and on about how HORRIBLE i.e. bad civilian casualties were. How they were unecessary, how the war was bad etc.

Sure you mention that there is another weight in this scale but you don't really seem to consider it.



Except for 'they are better off because of the Atom bombs' that's pretty much my point. No country in the world suffered more from US military actions as Japan.

I really don't believe that. Germany seemed to suffer far worse. I believe more people in Germany were killed with conventional arms then Japanese with atom bombs. The death rate for a Japanese soldier was about 3 percent. Compare that to the 30 percent death rate of a US soldier held by the Japanese.


But because the US did something right after them, the Japanese don't hate the US.

But you must realize the US was only able to do something after dropping the bombs and ending the war.



I didn't say the Japanese should hate the Us, I said that they have more reason to than any other people in the world.

Two TOTALLY different things. Also I question that statement very much.


That's something the Osamas and Saddams of the world should realize... That the Japanese have more reason to hate America then they have, and since they don't hate America, neither should they.

Total value judgement, one unwarranted. Sometimes hate is a necessary/desired emotion. I really don't see why the Japanese should hate us. You go back and forth, from saying Japan has good reason to hate us but doesn't because we helped them.

But if we helped them so much, does Japan really have a good reason to hate us?

If anything I'd say Russia has much more reason to hate us then Japan, as does China.

I think what the Osama's have to realize is that if they attack the US they will lose that which they value most. And that their religious fanaticism is bankrupt.

Perhaps they should follow Japan's lead, not because Japan overcame "good reasoned" hate but because it embrassed progress over dead traditions and fundamentalism. It evolved. They should evolve too.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by corplinx


You should put him on the "short bus" list like I did.

I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore
I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore
I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore
I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore
I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore
I've got Mr Manifesto on ignore

Notice no matter how many times you say it, the same number of people care? Why don't you do something constructive with your internet time?

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
They seemed like a rather small, very biased group. The plain dropping bombs in the background didn't help much.

What does background have to do with methodology? If I say the moon orbits the Earth on a website with hammers and sickles in the background does that make me any less correct?

[DialecticMaterialist]

Makes you more dubious. Truth be told I don't have enough to time to look into the methodology and sources of every site I come across. Terrible tragedy, but that's how it is. So when I come across a site that looks very fringe/extreme I usually don't put much stock in it. Not enough to do heavy research on the subject. I can't for example go to Iraq and interview Iraqis. So for the most part, I'm taking the person's word on it.

So when I see a site with extreme propoganda on it, that is also making some very strong/extreme value judgements, for example:

Civilian casualties are the most unacceptable consequence of all wars. Each civilian death is a tragedy and should never be regarded as the "cost" of achieving our countries' war aims, because it is not we who are paying this price.

I am hesistant to accept its research especially if it is at odds with my background knowledge. Especially when some of their sources seem dubious (Al Jazeera, Christian "science" monitor, commondreams.org). Perhaps they are right, however I probably will not fully believe it until I find a another source. Though I will entertain it.

[Mr Manifesto]

So you admit you can't be bothered analysing the methodology looking at the arguments the site presents but because it uses wallpaper and "extreme" value judgements (like civilains being killed is a tragedy- this is extreme? It could only come from one whose country has never been bombed) you don't like you discount it. That speaks volumes.

[PogoPedant]

The death rate for a Japanese soldier was about 3 percent. Compare that to the 30 percent death rate of a US soldier held by the Japanese.
You're comparing two different things here. A better comparison would be between the death rate of Japanese soldiers vs. the deathrate of US soldiers, or that rate for prisoners held by both sides.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Earthborn

Not a very 'patriotic' or 'soldierly' view for a military member, I assure you

I think it is strange that someone would consider their own opinion to be unpatriotic or unsoldierly...

It seems obvious to me by the quote marks that he is viewing himself under someone else's standard for patriotism and soldierly, not his own.

MattJ

[DialecticMaterialist]

You're comparing two different things here. A better comparison would be between the death rate of Japanese soldiers vs. the deathrate of US soldiers, or that rate for prisoners held by both sides.

Actually you are right. I meant to say the death rate for a Japanese soldier held as a US prisoner was 3 percent. Messed up on the typing.

[DialecticMaterialist]

So you admit you can't be bothered analysing the methodology looking at the arguments the site presents but because it uses wallpaper and "extreme" value judgements (like civilains being killed is a tragedy- this is extreme? It could only come from one whose country has never been bombed) you don't like you discount it. That speaks volumes.

Sure you can believe it speaks as many volume as you want. Though I doubt you yourself deeply analze all sources you come across nor anyone for that matter. Which makes me question your standard.

Either that or you don't get into too many issues.

Also a researcher should try and be objective. Saying before hand that your motivation is a political or an ethical one somewhat makes you lose credibility as an objective source.

[Earthborn]

Though I doubt you yourself deeply analze all sources you come across nor anyone for that matter.I don't think you need to deeply analyze the methodology to understand it. It is very simple and easy to understand...

The website uses many sources. many of which are sources you would undoubtedly consider credible, others you might believe to be biased. Obviously the number of casualties those different sources report will vary, and this is why they give two figures: the minimum reported casualties and the maximum. You can choose for yourself whether you prefer to think the actual number is closer to the minimum or the maximum. But it must be somewhere in between.

Can you think of a fairer way to represent the number of casualties?Also a researcher should try and be objective. Saying before hand that your motivation is a political or an ethical one somewhat makes you lose credibility as an objective source.Just as a researcher employed by a pharmaceutical company can still perform objective research, despite not being independant, these people can give objective figures despite being politically motivated. It is true that being dependant must make you careful in assesing the results, but the objectivity is defined by the fairness of the methods used.

At least they are completely honest about their ethical stance. One which I personally don't think is all that extreme at all...We believe it is a moral and humanitarian duty for each such death to be recorded, publicised, given the weight it deserves and, where possible, investigated to establish whether there are grounds for criminal proceedings.