The Bible is Word of God!

[PetriFB]

Scriptures of the Bible are born from the influence of God. The message of the Bible is condensed in this:





God announces Himself to mankind. He has prepared salvation for sinners through Jesus Christ. Through His word, God teaches basic values of life, according to which it is good to live. God announces coming events by way of His word. God announces in His word the way to the source of eternal life.



Central to the Bible is the Description of Jesus Christ



The Bible describes the phases of the nation of Israel and the life wandering of individual persons and their relationship to God. The Bible also includes the feelings and thoughts of people, including their pleasures, griefs, failures, successful choices, and so on. However, in all these different dimensions we can see God and His will. The Bible announces the Word of God to mankind, because the Bible is His word. The centre point of all in the Bible is God and salvation, which He has prepared. This salvation is in Jesus Christ.

[Zep]

I'll be kind to the first-timer...

Have you taken the time to read through the myriad of threads already here that discuss this issue in considerable depth? If not, can I suggest you do so BEFORE you get back to us with an update?

Unless you are just a drive-through poster...

[PetriFB]

I'll be kind to the first-timer...

Have you taken the time to read through the myriad of threads already here that discuss this issue in considerable depth? If not, can I suggest you do so BEFORE you get back to us with an update?

Unless you are just a drive-through poster...

I just put my thoughts to the screen ...... I think everyone has still his rights to believe where he likes ... you have also similar rights ...

[wollery]

I just put my thoughts to the screen ...... I think everyone has still his rights to believe where he likes ... you have also similar rights ...That's fair enough, and I support that right, just don't expect too many people here to agree with you, but provided you don't try to preach too much you may get into some interesting discussions.

Of course, if you're only here to preach then you're in for a rough ride, there are plenty of people here who have been devout christians and become agnostics or atheists, and have little or no patience for being preached at, and many who you'll find can probably quote scripture better than you can.

[Gravy]

Aah, Wollery beat me to it. Welcome, PetriFB. Is there something in particular you wish to discuss?

[PetriFB]

That's fair enough, and I support that right, just don't expect too many people here to agree with you, but provided you don't try to preach too much you may get into some interesting discussions.

Of course, if you're only here to preach then you're in for a rough ride, there are plenty of people here who have been devout christians and become agnostics or atheists, and have little or no patience for being preached at, and many who you'll find can probably quote scripture better than you can.

If I say to where I believe..it is not preaching, but saying of my life values....

I know also people who has left God. General reason for this is that they have not been ready to change their life according to it what is will of God. And some people may have insult them and they don't wanna forgive......or they have been some things, which they would have change in their life or their neighbour life; but when any change has not happened, they have become bitter and left God .....

Yes, there can be many who can quote Scripture better than I can... fortunately being disciple of Jesus Christ is not only quoting the word, but living according to the Word....

More my thoughts:

In the original language of Hebrew, the Bible has no vowels, because it was written only with consonants, since Jews were able to read and to pronounce the Scriptures of the Bible just as they are pronounced. Jewish scribes, during 400 B.C., added vowels to the Old Testament. However, the message of the Bible was not changed, but vowels eased the reading of the Old Testament for those whose mother language was not Hebrew. Also in today’s Israel, many printed texts appear without vowels because Jews can read a text in their mother language without vowels. The Old Testament has been written in Hebrew and a few verses are also in the Aramaic language, which was the common language during the time of Jesus Christ. The original language of the New Testament is Greek, which is a very wise decision on God’s part because Greek was the common language of the world at the time when the gospel was first preached. In this way, the gospel spread quickly around the world. Since none of the original Hebrew or Aramaic text has been found, we have to stay in the Greek language as the original text of the NT. But if sometime in the future we might find Hebrew or Aramaic texts of the NT, which are proved to be original texts, but until this happens, we must stay in the language of Greek as the original language of the NT.



Translation of the Bible is not a problem, because all texts can always be translated into some other language. Most translations of the Bible are extremely accurate. The message of the word of God is intended to be preached to the whole world. That's why it is translated extremely accurately into every language. But there exist also so called liberal translations, which are not as accurate in many places.



A translation of the Bible is not a replacement for the original text, because a copy is always a copy. But the translation doesn’t prevent the Bible from being the word of God. For example, translations of the old King James Bible and James (Jay) P. Green’s literal translation are really close translations to the original text.



Liberal translations have been translated according to the principle of dynamic equivalence, which means that the word in the original language has not been translated literally. Instead, the liberal translation attempts to convey the thoughts of the Biblical writers and is in many places the interpretation of translators. In this way, liberal translations earn the title of “liberal translation”. It is absolutely clear that this kind of translating destroys much of the content of the original text of the Bible.

[PetriFB]

Aah, Wollery beat me to it. Welcome, PetriFB. Is there something in particular you wish to discuss?

I'm discussing about the Bible and that it is word of God .......

[The_Fire]

I'm discussing about the Bible and that it is word of God .......

Why?

[PetriFB]

Why?

Because it is word of God....and it is very important to me ......... you can also start your own topic and tell there what is important in your life or tell it here .. I don't attack you .........I only discuss ......

[The_Fire]

Just to clarify: That was not an attack.

I am, however, a little bit puzzled at why you think that your belief that the bible is your gods word and subsequently true would make a good discussion topic here.

[SezMe]

I'm inclined, like Zep, to resist my baser typing skills...so

PetriFB, welcome to the Forum and Happy Birthday.

Your points are quite general so maybe we could engage in a more productive conversation if we focused in on one of your (I presume) important points:

God announces coming events by way of His word.
To Christians, and presumably to you, prophecy is both a very important evidence for god and for confirmation of the validity of the bible. So, could you please specify IN DETAIL an event that god has announced that will come true shortly. By that I mean in the next few months.

If you cannot do that, what DETAILED prophecy can you show us that will come true at any time in the future.

[Diabolos]

I'm discussing about the Bible and that it is word of God .......
And your evidence that the Bible is the word of God is...?

[PetriFB]

Just to clarify: That was not an attack.

I am, however, a little bit puzzled at why you think that your belief that the bible is your gods word and subsequently true would make a good discussion topic here.

I didn't say that you attacked against me. I said that I woun't attack...

It is good topic for me ........

[PetriFB]

I'm inclined, like Zep, to resist my baser typing skills...so

PetriFB, welcome to the Forum and Happy Birthday.

Your points are quite general so maybe we could engage in a more productive conversation if we focused in on one of your (I presume) important points:


To Christians, and presumably to you, prophecy is both a very important evidence for god and for confirmation of the validity of the bible. So, could you please specify IN DETAIL an event that god has announced that will come true shortly. By that I mean in the next few months.

If you cannot do that, what DETAILED prophecy can you show us that will come true at any time in the future.

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....

[PetriFB]

And your evidence that the Bible is the word of God is...?

few things is:

The message of the Bible is so deep, that no one can ever understand the whole meaning of it.



Now faith is the substantiation of things having been hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen. For by this the elders obtained witness. By faith we understand the ages to have been framed by the word of God, so that the things seen should not come into being out of things that appear.

Hebr 11:1-3



From this Biblical verse comes the understanding that God’s acts and words can’t be understood other than by faith.



And as they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace to you! But being terrified and filled with fear, they thought they saw a spirit. And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts. See My hands and My feet, that I am He? Feel Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having. And saying this, He showed them His hands and feet. But yet they not believing from the joy, and marveling, He said to them, Have you any food here? And they handed a broiled part of a fish to Him, and from a honeycomb. And taking these before them, He ate. And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you yet being with you, that must be fulfilled all the things having been written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me. Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Luke 24: 36-48



After His death, Jesus appeared to His disciples and opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. Think about this! The disciples wandered three years with Jesus Christ and during this time they saw many miracles, which Jesus Christ performed. However, these miracles couldn't help them to understand the word of God and its prophetical message. Jesus Christ opened their understanding to comprehend the Biblical Scriptures



When a man admits his sinfulness before God, then God will regenerate him from above, whereby the man receives the Holy Spirit. By the Holy Spirit God opens His word to the man, to those who believe in Him. Understanding of the Bible is dependant upon faith and not on the intelligence of a man. Through his own understanding, a man can only partially understand the word of God. This amount is not enough to save us. The word of God, the Holy Spirit and prayer are necessary for an understanding that leads to salvation. Otherwise the word of God remains one book among other books.



The Bible was born from the influence of the Spirit of God



knowing this first, that every prophecy of Scripture did not come into being of its own interpretation; for prophecy was not at any time borne by the will of man, but having been borne along by the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke.

2 Peter 1:20,21



I will add to this a few examples, which indicate clearly to us that the Bible has born from the influence of the Spirit of God.


Dividing of the continent



And two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

1 Moos 10:25



The Bible speaks about the great flood, which covered and drowned the whole earth. After this flood, the earth was divided into many parts from which different continents originated. Today's science is of the strong opinion that originally the globe was only one large continent. Continental plates have moved and consequently, our current continents came into existence.



The book of Genesis was written thousands of years ago. Where could one of the writers of the Bible have known that the earth was divided? The Spirit of God has been leading this verse to be placed in the Bible.



If you look at a map of the planet and start to combine the different continents, you will notice that they combine together surprisingly well. Scientists have proven with their own measurements, that continental plates belong perfectly together and in the beginning composed one continent. But for some reason continental plates have started to move away and have divided.



The Bible tells us, that the nation of Israel is in the pole of the earth, Eze 36:12. When the continental plates are adjusted to their original position, we can see one continent whose centre point is the country of Israel. How did the prophet Ezekiel know this? The Spirit of God also guided this information into the Bible.


Form of the earth is round



Have you not known? Have you not heard? Was it not told to you from the beginning? Did you not discern from the foundations of the earth? He who sits on the circle of the earth, even its dwellers are like grasshoppers; He who stretches the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Isa 40: 21-22



The prophet Isaiah speaks by the inspired Spirit of God that God sits above the earth, which has the shape of a circle. In the 22nd verse, the word for circle in the Hebrew language is Chug - in other words, God sits above the circular earth. The prophet Isaiah knew that the earth is circular in form and he lived about 700 B.C., almost 2700 years ago.

[wollery]

If I say to where I believe..it is not preaching, but saying of my life values....

I know also people who has left God. General reason for this is that they have not been ready to change their life according to it what is will of God. And some people may have insult them and they don't wanna forgive......or they have been some things, which they would have change in their life or their neighbour life; but when any change has not happened, they have become bitter and left God .....And there are many people who have read the bible and become disturbed by it's internal contradictions, and the apparently changing behaviour of the god it describes, coming to the conclusion that it was simply written by men who were trying to ascribe meaning to apparently random events and to explain the world around them.

Yes, there can be many who can quote Scripture better than I can... fortunately being disciple of Jesus Christ is not only quoting the word, but living according to the Word....My point really is that many people come here quoting selected verses from the bible and apparently expecting others to read them and be inspired to become devout christians. They fail in that regard because for almost any bible verse it is possible to find another which contradicts it or shows god in a different light.

More my thoughts:

In the original language of Hebrew, the Bible has no vowels, because it was written only with consonants, since Jews were able to read and to pronounce the Scriptures of the Bible just as they are pronounced. Jewish scribes, during 400 B.C., added vowels to the Old Testament. However, the message of the Bible was not changed, but vowels eased the reading of the Old Testament for those whose mother language was not Hebrew. Also in today’s Israel, many printed texts appear without vowels because Jews can read a text in their mother language without vowels. The Old Testament has been written in Hebrew and a few verses are also in the Aramaic language, which was the common language during the time of Jesus Christ. The original language of the New Testament is Greek, which is a very wise decision on God’s part because Greek was the common language of the world at the time when the gospel was first preached. In this way, the gospel spread quickly around the world. Since none of the original Hebrew or Aramaic text has been found, we have to stay in the Greek language as the original text of the NT. But if sometime in the future we might find Hebrew or Aramaic texts of the NT, which are proved to be original texts, but until this happens, we must stay in the language of Greek as the original language of the NT.



Translation of the Bible is not a problem, because all texts can always be translated into some other language. Most translations of the Bible are extremely accurate. The message of the word of God is intended to be preached to the whole world. That's why it is translated extremely accurately into every language. But there exist also so called liberal translations, which are not as accurate in many places.



A translation of the Bible is not a replacement for the original text, because a copy is always a copy. But the translation doesn’t prevent the Bible from being the word of God. For example, translations of the old King James Bible and James (Jay) P. Green’s literal translation are really close translations to the original text.



Liberal translations have been translated according to the principle of dynamic equivalence, which means that the word in the original language has not been translated literally. Instead, the liberal translation attempts to convey the thoughts of the Biblical writers and is in many places the interpretation of translators. In this way, liberal translations earn the title of “liberal translation”. It is absolutely clear that this kind of translating destroys much of the content of the original text of the Bible.
The main problem with translating from one language to another is that any translation requires a change in the use of words, because every language has its own colloquial phrases and grammar. This means that truly literal translations are virtually impossible, and since the English language versions are translations from Latin, which are translations from Greek (and in the case of the OT the Greek versions are translations from either Hebrew or Aramaic), the likelihood of them being literally accurate are fairly low.

As an example, do you know which sea Moses parted during the Exodus from Egypt?

[wollery]

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....So your evidence that biblical prophecies come true is a biblical account of a prophecy coming true? Sorry, that's not sufficient evidence.

Please supply us with an instance where the bible makes a clear and unambiguous prophecy which has been recorded as having occured by a non-biblical source.

[Zep]

Just to give you an example, PetriFB:

It is prophecied that my wife will have a birthday some time before the end of the year. It's written in that great and holy book, my scribbly desk calendar. What is more, the calendar prophecied that she would have one last year...and guess what! It's TRUE! :D She DID have a birthday last year! So I'm really expecting my desk calendar to come through with fulfilling this prophecy this year too.

Which means, seriously, at this point in time, my desk calendar with all its scribblings in it is running neck-and-neck with the bible in prophecy accuracy. Perhaps more so - it has been right nearly 50 times before for my wife AND me alone, and about 20 times for my daughter. Not to mention my parents, or friends too. Its prophecying powers are absolutely proven reliable and accurate.

So perhaps you can tell me again why the bible is any more special than my desk calendar, given that you put great store in its prophecying accuracy as your main attribute? If that is your main criteria, perhaps you should worship the people mentioned in my desk calendar...Dilbert and Wally and the Pointy-Haired Boss and so on. Yes?

Please consider this a serious response. Over to you now.

[PetriFB]

And there are many people who have read the bible and become disturbed by it's internal contradictions, and the apparently changing behaviour of the god it describes, coming to the conclusion that it was simply written by men who were trying to ascribe meaning to apparently random events and to explain the world around them.

My point really is that many people come here quoting selected verses from the bible and apparently expecting others to read them and be inspired to become devout christians. They fail in that regard because for almost any bible verse it is possible to find another which contradicts it or shows god in a different light.


The main problem with translating from one language to another is that any translation requires a change in the use of words, because every language has its own colloquial phrases and grammar. This means that truly literal translations are virtually impossible, and since the English language versions are translations from Latin, which are translations from Greek (and in the case of the OT the Greek versions are translations from either Hebrew or Aramaic), the likelihood of them being literally accurate are fairly low.

As an example, do you know which sea Moses parted during the Exodus from Egypt?

Sea is in hebrew yam soof which means red sea ....

Many contradictions are because of wrong translated verses and so on...

By the way my task is not convert anybody, but tell about Him, who can convert .....

[PetriFB]

So your evidence that biblical prophecies come true is a biblical account of a prophecy coming true? Sorry, that's not sufficient evidence.

Please supply us with an instance where the bible makes a clear and unambiguous prophecy which has been recorded as having occured by a non-biblical source.


The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction. The only reasonable explanation for the formation of this lake is the flood. Titicaca was originally a deep valley, which became full of the water during the flood.



When we speak about the biblical flood, we don't have to only look for information given by nature, but also traditional knowledge of nations proves that the flood has taken place. These stories have been found from all over the world. Many details from these stories have changed, however common elements exist, for example, that water is mentioned as the originator of the devastation. Many of these stories also mention falling into sin and the mixture of languages in Babel (Babylonia), which also the Bible speaks of.



These stories appear among different tribes, such as Babylonians, Australian natives, China Miao tribe, African dwarfs of Efe, the Hopi Indians of America and Padago tribe in North America. The flood story has spread around the world. This is a clear indication that the flood has, after all, taken place.



We all remember the story of Noah and how he went into the ark, and there were with him seven others persons - in other words eight people in the ark. (Gen 7:7, 1 Peter 3:20).



It's very interesting that the number eight and a clear reference to the flood comes into view in Chinese characters. In Chinese characters, the symbol for ship describes a boat with eight people. In other words, just the same number as in the ark of Noah! In the same way, the Chinese character for flood is the figure eight! It can't be a coincidence that the same number eight is connected both to the ship symbol and the flood symbol. The connection is there because the Chinese have preserved the traditional knowledge of the same global flood as other nations. This can’t be accident, but confirms that this Chinese tradition is compatible with the testimony of the Bible



Also, there's another peculiarity in Chinese characters - the word righteous. The character for righteous is composed from two different parts: the upper part means a lamb and lower side is the personal pronoun I. This is very interesting because man can't by himself become righteous, but when he has faith in the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ), can he become righteous.

[PetriFB]

The death of Jesus is prophesied in the Bible very accurate way and history has also recorded His death:

The notes of Josephus. Firstly the Jewish historian Josephus has mentioned Jesus. In his notes there appear several persons of the Bible - John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, Cyrenius, Archelaus, the clergy of Jerusalem... - he also tells us in some passages of how the Sanhedrin was called together and its task was to condemn “Jacob, who was the brother of the man called Christ ". He so referred to Jacob, Jesus’ brother, child of Mary and Joseph who was one of "the pillars" of the congregation of Jerusalem. This man had been condemned by the Sanhedrin because he had followed Jesus Christ.

Josephus has preserved another longer statement about Jesus. In this one he mentions that Pilate sentenced Jesus, and he also speaks of his crucifixion and resurrection. He also mentions in an earlier passage how Jesus taught and worked miracles. He also had followers:



"At that time lived Jesus, the man filled by wisdom, as far as he can be called man. He did quite unbelievable things and was a teacher of all of them who gladly heard the truth. Many Jews and Greeks followed him. He was Christ. Provoked by our influential men Pilate condemned him to death on the cross. However they who earlier had loved him, held fast to him. He appeared as alive to them on the third day such as the prophets sent by God have prophesied about him in thousands of marvellous prophecies. There is still a sect, which calls themselves after him: Christians.”



Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus is one of those who has mentioned the death of Jesus and also the fire of Rome in 64. He mentions in his writings that Jesus died on the cross - just as is described in the gospels – during the reign of Caesar Tiberius (14-37 A.D.) and when Pontius Pilate (26-36 A.D.) was a judge. He also points out that the Christian faith had spread to Rome from Judea – where it had started:



"A popular belief is that Caesar Nero was the one who set this fire. In order to suppress this rumour, he accused a sect called the Christians of this crime. They were commonly shunned because of their customs and services. The name had been given to them because of a certain Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate condemned and nailed on the cross during the reign of Tiberius. This dangerous sect, whom I have described earlier, has not only taken root in Judea, from where it has come from, but also in Rome, where all frightening and shameful matters gather and find there their home.”



Thallus, a Samaritan by birth has mentioned Jesus. In his history book, written in about 52 A.D. that the darkness that fell at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus would have resulted from an eclipse of the sun.



From the Talmud we can find passages, of which several are convergent with the gospels. There we are told how Jesus was known by the name of Jesus the Nazarene; he said that he had not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it; he mocked teachers, who interpreted the law in the way of Pharisees; the miracles which he worked were explained to be sorcery (this can be found in the gospels, when the Pharisees accused Jesus.) and it was also said that Jesus led people astray; he was crucified on Easter eve as an instigator of people; he had five disciples; the disciples preached the teaching of Jesus to others; his disciples healed the sick in his name, but believing them was not allowed under the threat of mortal death.



The Roman Suetonius, who was a contemporary of the historian Tacitus, also refers to Jesus. In his book "The life of Caesar". He speaks about Caesar Claudius (41-54 as Caesar) and also about Jesus. He, as does Tacitus, refers to how the Christian faith had already reached Rome at that time, but Claudius had expelled the Jews, because so many of them believed in Christ (compare Acts 18:2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them):



"Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome as confusion had resulted from them converting to become followers of Christ."

[Diabolos]

The message of the Bible is so deep, that no one can ever understand the whole meaning of it.

Surely an all-powerful God would be capable of making things understandable to all?


Now faith is the substantiation of things having been hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen. For by this the elders obtained witness. By faith we understand the ages to have been framed by the word of God, so that the things seen should not come into being out of things that appear.

Sorry, you've lost me.


From this Biblical verse comes the understanding that God’s acts and words can’t be understood other than by faith.

Faith wiithout evidence?


And as they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace to you! But being terrified and filled with fear, they thought they saw a spirit. And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts. See My hands and My feet, that I am He? Feel Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having. And saying this, He showed them His hands and feet. But yet they not believing from the joy, and marveling, He said to them, Have you any food here? And they handed a broiled part of a fish to Him, and from a honeycomb. And taking these before them, He ate. And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you yet being with you, that must be fulfilled all the things having been written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me. Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Luke 24: 36-48

So?



After His death, Jesus appeared to His disciples and opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. Think about this! The disciples wandered three years with Jesus Christ and during this time they saw many miracles, which Jesus Christ performed. However, these miracles couldn't help them to understand the word of God and its prophetical message. Jesus Christ opened their understanding to comprehend the Biblical Scriptures

How do you know these events really happened?


When a man admits his sinfulness before God, then God will regenerate him from above, whereby the man receives the Holy Spirit. By the Holy Spirit God opens His word to the man, to those who believe in Him. Understanding of the Bible is dependant upon faith and not on the intelligence of a man. Through his own understanding, a man can only partially understand the word of God. This amount is not enough to save us. The word of God, the Holy Spirit and prayer are necessary for an understanding that leads to salvation. Otherwise the word of God remains one book among other books.

In other words, don't use your brain to try and figure out the real world, just believe in any old crap you're told.


I will add to this a few examples, which indicate clearly to us that the Bible has born from the influence of the Spirit of God.

Dividing of the continent

And two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

1 Moos 10:25

The Bible speaks about the great flood, which covered and drowned the whole earth. After this flood, the earth was divided into many parts from which different continents originated. Today's science is of the strong opinion that originally the globe was only one large continent. Continental plates have moved and consequently, our current continents came into existence.

Today's science is of the strong opinion that there was not a "great flood" as described in the Bible.


The book of Genesis was written thousands of years ago. Where could one of the writers of the Bible have known that the earth was divided? The Spirit of God has been leading this verse to be placed in the Bible.

Do you know how long it's been general knowledge that there are separate continents?

If you look at a map of the planet and start to combine the different continents, you will notice that they combine together surprisingly well. Scientists have proven with their own measurements, that continental plates belong perfectly together and in the beginning composed one continent. But for some reason continental plates have started to move away and have divided.

The Bible tells us, that the nation of Israel is in the pole of the earth, Eze 36:12. When the continental plates are adjusted to their original position, we can see one continent whose centre point is the country of Israel. How did the prophet Ezekiel know this? The Spirit of God also guided this information into the Bible.

Evidence?


Form of the earth is round

Have you not known? Have you not heard? Was it not told to you from the beginning? Did you not discern from the foundations of the earth? He who sits on the circle of the earth, even its dwellers are like grasshoppers; He who stretches the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Isa 40: 21-22

The prophet Isaiah speaks by the inspired Spirit of God that God sits above the earth, which has the shape of a circle. In the 22nd verse, the word for circle in the Hebrew language is Chug - in other words, God sits above the circular earth. The prophet Isaiah knew that the earth is circular in form and he lived about 700 B.C., almost 2700 years ago.

This could be interpreted to mean that the Earth is flat; after all, circles are two-dimensional. The correct word would be "sphere" (or more correctly, "spheroid"). Surely God would know this?

[ExitDose]

By the way my task is not convert anybody, but tell about Him, who can convert .....
Hmm...my reception must be bad. All I get is static. I thought I heard a voice talking about GEICO. Does Him care about my car insurance?

Should I jiggle the handle? Hit control+alt+delete?

Why do I always get the broken deities? ;)

[CP489]

The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction. The only reasonable explanation for the formation of this lake is the flood. Titicaca was originally a deep valley, which became full of the water during the flood.

So anything we can't explain yet is confirmation of some Biblical story or religious superstition. Sorry we've seen this song and dance before, lightning, solar and lunar eclipses, earthquakes, etc. etc.



When we speak about the biblical flood, we don't have to only look for information given by nature, but also traditional knowledge of nations proves that the flood has taken place. These stories have been found from all over the world. Many details from these stories have changed, however common elements exist, for example, that water is mentioned as the originator of the devastation. Many of these stories also mention falling into sin and the mixture of languages in Babel (Babylonia), which also the Bible speaks of.

Scientific evidence points to no worldwide flood, ever. It's more logical to assume that all of these stories evolved (!) out of one myth.



These stories appear among different tribes, such as Babylonians, Australian natives, China Miao tribe, African dwarfs of Efe, the Hopi Indians of America and Padago tribe in North America. The flood story has spread around the world. This is a clear indication that the flood has, after all, taken place.


Of course the mere existence of these people in different parts of the world in ancient times is evidence against the flood. The story of Santa Clause has also spread across the world. This is a clear indication that Santa does, after all, exist.


We all remember the story of Noah and how he went into the ark, and there were with him seven others persons - in other words eight people in the ark. (Gen 7:7, 1 Peter 3:20).



It's very interesting that the number eight and a clear reference to the flood comes into view in Chinese characters. In Chinese characters, the symbol for ship describes a boat with eight people. In other words, just the same number as in the ark of Noah! In the same way, the Chinese character for flood is the figure eight! It can't be a coincidence that the same number eight is connected both to the ship symbol and the flood symbol. The connection is there because the Chinese have preserved the traditional knowledge of the same global flood as other nations. This can’t be accident, but confirms that this Chinese tradition is compatible with the testimony of the Bible



Also, there's another peculiarity in Chinese characters - the word righteous. The character for righteous is composed from two different parts: the upper part means a lamb and lower side is the personal pronoun I. This is very interesting because man can't by himself become righteous, but when he has faith in the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ), can he become righteous.

Congratulations, you've found patterns and correlation where none exist, thus providing evidence that you have a very human brain.

[Beady]

The notes of Josephus.

Actually, this particular entry in Josephus has been challenged as a forgery. For that matter, the siege of Masada has also been challenged as a historical incident, because Josephus is apparently the only source and is considered unreliable.

ETA: BTW, you forget that Tacitus et al were not writing of Jesus, they were writing of the followers of Jesus, and their beliefs. At best, they were repeating oft-told tales that had already changed in the telling. Also, if you're going to cite Roman sources as accurate accounts of the early Christians, then you are inherently agreeing with the Roman belief that Christians were cannibles, demon-worshippers, etc.

[Oleron]

The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction. The only reasonable explanation for the formation of this lake is the flood. Titicaca was originally a deep valley, which became full of the water during the flood.

(Quoted from PetriFB)


This is wrong. Totally wrong.

More than 25 rivers empty into Titicaca, and the lake has 41 islands, some of which are densely populated.

Titicaca is fed by rainfall and meltwater from glaciers on the sierras that abut the Altiplano. It is drained by the Desaguadero River, which flows south through Bolivia to Lake Poopó.

From here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca)

Next time someone tells you something, spend 20 seconds checking it out before you base your beliefs on it.

[SezMe]

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....
That is in the past (whatever it means) and is so vague that it cannot serve as a response to my request.

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....
I don't mean to be harsh here, PetriFB, but that is gibbrish. It is not an English sentence, it does not respond to my question and, to be frank, betrays a lack of thoughtfulness.

I'll repeat my question: Please identify a SPECIFIC prophecy which will come true. Saying something like "nations will start to hate Christians" is utterly useless.

[Mojo]

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....Apart from this being in the past, you are also using a biblical story as evidence that a biblical prophecy has come true. You can't use the Bible to authenticate itself. You need to demonstrate an accurate prophecy of an event for which there is good evidence outside the Bible.

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....This is a little vague: "all nations start to hate those who believe to Jesus Christ" isn't a specific event. Or are you claiming that the second coming will occur within the next few months?

[elliotfc]

The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world.

Titicaca.. Heh heh.

[elliotfc]

I'll repeat my question: Please identify a SPECIFIC prophecy which will come true. Saying something like "nations will start to hate Christians" is utterly useless.

If I may pipe-in...I think you're confusing prophecy with prediction. A prophecy can be a prediction, it's true, but in no way does it have to be...as a prediction is quite specific.

For example, in all Catholic Christian baptisms, the baptized is called to be a priest, prophet, and king. It doesn't mean that every Catholic is nominated to be a reigning celibate monarch of a religious order who makes yearly predictions on the Larry King show. Those words have deeper, and non-specific meanings as well. -Elliot

[Freethinker]

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....

Jesus also said he would be back before the people listening to him had died. Where is he? Maybe he overslept. Where are these 2000 year old people?

[This Guy]

First, welcome to the forums! :)

Scriptures of the Bible are born from the influence of God. The message of the Bible is condensed in this: (snip)


It would seem that God's influence was a bit lacking, or not followed well. As one example, he influenced the writer of Ezekiel to write -
And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD(Ezekiel 26:14).

He was speaking of Tyre (Tyrus being the Latin word for Tyre). God is quoted as saying that Nebuchadnezzar would do this. It appears that it had to wait till Alexander the Great came calling though, and in spite of God's influence, the town exist today - "Tyre was an ancient Phoenician city and today is the fourth largest city in Lebanon." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre

There are other examples of God's words not being confirmed by history, but I don't have time or willingness to list more now.

And why did He influence the writers of the gospels to give four disagreeing accounts of what may be the most important event reported by all four writers (the resurrection)? Feel free to correct me on this by writing an account of the resurrection that uses all the details from all four accounts, leaving nothing out, and adding nothing, and having something that makes some kind of sense when finished :)

I believe your bible provides little more than some decent history (and some indecent) mixed in with some tales of fantasy. Makes for some fair adult reading material, but I won't give it much more than that.

As pointed out above, most of the Josephus quote is believed to have been added to what he actually said (and some question if the Testimonium Flavianum isn't a total add in). It's strange to me that he would make a statement like the one alleged in the Testimonium Flavianum, and yet make no mention of Herod's killing of the innocents. Even though he did write quite a bit about Herod, and not all of it was flattering.

And it's strange that other than one obscure quote that might be talking about a quote that might be talking about the darkness at the death of Jesus (yes, I meant to type those words twice;-) there is nothing about all the other great things that are alleged to have taken place. No one bothered to write about all the dead saints walking around town for instance. Josephus' father lived in the area at the time I believe. Strange that Josephus never heard tales of these events. I know I would have told my son if I knew something like that happened in my town before he was born!

Most of the other sources speak only of a Christian relegion. I think few sane people will argue that there was not a Christian relegion in the mid to late first centry.

As for -
From the Talmud we can find passages
Could you be speaking of the Jesus (or perhaps he was called Christ?) that was stoned on the Passover Eve? I can't come up with a link to back this claim up at the moment. But there was a Jesus that was stoned, then hanged, after a crier went out for 40 days to see if anyone wanted to come speak in his defense (if I remember correctly). Most of the facts in this story would be in stark contrast to the bible account of Christ's death.

[Beady]

As for - "From the Talmud we can find passages..."

Could you be speaking of the Jesus (or perhaps he was called Christ?) that was stoned on the Passover Eve? I can't come up with a link to back this claim up at the moment. But there was a Jesus that was stoned, then hanged, after a crier went out for 40 days to see if anyone wanted to come speak in his defense (if I remember correctly). Most of the facts in this story would be in stark contrast to the bible account of Christ's death.

Try here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/talmud.html

This looks like what you might mean:


Only the tiniest portion of the Talmud may refer to Christianity in any definite way. The three most noteworthy references are given in links above: the hanging of Yeshu on the eve of Passover, the bastard son found in a book of genealogies, and the account of a certain Yeshu of around 100 BCE. Only the first of these can be related to Christianity with reliabilty.




Here is what is written in Baraitha Bab. Sanhedrin 43a, probably second century:On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! - Ulla retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a _Mesith_ [enticer], concerning him Scripture says, _Neither shalt though spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?_ With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government for royalty [i.e., influential]. Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.


ETA: Once again, written well after the purported event.


Without attempting to be sarcastic, PetriFB, your scholarship so far has been less than impressive.

[slingblade]

Wow. Another one. How do we get so lucky?

[I less than three logic]

The Bible speaks about the great flood, which covered and drowned the whole earth. After this flood, the earth was divided into many parts from which different continents originated. Today's science is of the strong opinion that originally the globe was only one large continent. Continental plates have moved and consequently, our current continents came into existence.
This is quite a gross misrepresentation of the theory of plate tectonics and continental drift.

Yes, science is of the strong opinion that there was a time when there was only one large continent, but it hardly consisted of the globe. Science is also of the strong opinion that the separation of Pangaea (which I believe is the continent you’re thinking of) happened long before humans existed.

You may like to know that Pangaea wasn’t the only time there was one continent on earth, there was also Pannotia and Rodinia, and chances are quite good that in the future there will be another time where the earth has only one continent again.

[PetriFB]

The Bible tells us also that in the beginning, the age of the people was very high. Man could live over 900 years. This is often difficult to believe, but because the Bible is the word of God and true, then this longevity of people can't be nonsense.



Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory. Some scientists believe, that in the early years of mankind, a very large, worldwide devastation has had to take place. Fossils have been found from which have been found the remains of destroyed animals and remains of species of animals (for instance dinosaurs and mammoths). Fossils of such animals have been found in areas in which they wouldn’t live normally. This would prove that in the beginning only one large continent existed. Large lizard animals have become extinct, and many species are extinct. Fossils prove this. Also remains of animals have been found on the highest mountains. These all prove that a great flood has covered the earth and animals had climbed to the highest places to search for rescue, but the water covered the whole earth. From the highest mountain have also been found fish fossils, which is evidence on behalf of the flood. Fish don't live naturally on the mountains.



In Antarctica and Greenland, fruit and palm trees have been found. This all proves that in the beginning there was only one large continent. In Alaska, the fossils of lions, antelopes, camels, and horses have been found.



All these discoveries have been found in a frozen state. Many think that this advocates for an ice age theory and not for the flood.



Now we are also starting to understand that in the beginning, the globe was covered with water canopy. This water cloak prevented harmful space radiation from affecting the earth. Our globe was like a greenhouse, in which was a global tropical. The advantage of this water canopy was to increase human longevity by preventing harmful cosmic radiation from reaching the surface of the planet. It’s because of the cosmic radiation that astronauts wear space suits. Harmful space radiation is calculated to reach down to 14 metres (45 feet) under the water’s surface. The long- aged tortoise lives deep in the sea and some even live up to a few hundreds years of age. Comparable species on the earth don't live as long, but perhaps at the most up to 40 years of age. This water canopy really enabled people to live for over 900 years. The Bible also teaches that God decreased the age of man just before the flood.



The Bible teaches that because of the wickedness of people, God opened the windows of heaven and water from the sky fell for forty days. The water canopy, which protected the earth, now rained down and caused a large catastrophe in which almost all of mankind and animals drowned. When the water canopy, which had surrounded the earth, plunged down, it achieved so large a pressure, that it froze the North Pole and the South Pole. As a consequence of the flood, the continental plates moved and formed many smaller continents. Because of this freezing of the poles, evidence has been left which shows that the earth had been one large tropical continent before the flood.

[Meffy]

The awfullest thing about floods is being totally out of one's depth.

[Donks]

The Bible tells us also that in the beginning, the age of the people was very high. Man could live over 900 years. This is often difficult to believe, but because the Bible is the word of God and true, then this longevity of people can't be nonsense.
Feel free to present evidence of it.
Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory. Some scientists believe, that in the early years of mankind, a very large, worldwide devastation has had to take place.
Who are these scientists? Names? Publications?
Fossils have been found from which have been found the remains of destroyed animals and remains of species of animals (for instance dinosaurs and mammoths). Fossils of such animals have been found in areas in which they wouldn’t live normally. This would prove that in the beginning only one large continent existed. Large lizard animals have become extinct, and many species are extinct. Fossils prove this. Also remains of animals have been found on the highest mountains. These all prove that a great flood has covered the earth and animals had climbed to the highest places to search for rescue, but the water covered the whole earth. From the highest mountain have also been found fish fossils, which is evidence on behalf of the flood. Fish don't live naturally on the mountains.
Wrong. It is evidence that those mountains were once the sea bed. Plus you seem to be casually disregarding the different ages of fossils. Mamoth fossiles are thousands of years old, while dinosaur fossils are millions of years old.
In Antarctica and Greenland, fruit and palm trees have been found. This all proves that in the beginning there was only one large continent. In Alaska, the fossils of lions, antelopes, camels, and horses have been found.
Pangea existed. Continents shift.
All these discoveries have been found in a frozen state. Many think that this advocates for an ice age theory and not for the flood.
Uh, what are "all these discoveries" which have been found in "frozen state"? Surely if all discoveries were found in "frozen state" we'd have a few frozen dinosaurs.
Now we are also starting to understand that in the beginning, the globe was covered with water canopy.
Evidence?
This water cloak prevented harmful space radiation from affecting the earth. Our globe was like a greenhouse, in which was a global tropical. The advantage of this water canopy was to increase human longevity by preventing harmful cosmic radiation from reaching the surface of the planet. It’s because of the cosmic radiation that astronauts wear space suits. Harmful space radiation is calculated to reach down to 14 metres (45 feet) under the water’s surface. The long- aged tortoise lives deep in the sea and some even live up to a few hundreds years of age. Comparable species on the earth don't live as long, but perhaps at the most up to 40 years of age. This water canopy really enabled people to live for over 900 years. The Bible also teaches that God decreased the age of man just before the flood.
Wait, so it was God or the canopy that allowed humans to live 900 years? And again, you seem to be condensing the history of Earth to a very short timespan.
The Bible teaches that because of the wickedness of people, God opened the windows of heaven and water from the sky fell for forty days. The water canopy, which protected the earth, now rained down and caused a large catastrophe in which almost all of mankind and animals drowned. When the water canopy, which had surrounded the earth, plunged down, it achieved so large a pressure, that it froze the North Pole and the South Pole. As a consequence of the flood, the continental plates moved and formed many smaller continents. Because of this freezing of the poles, evidence has been left which shows that the earth had been one large tropical continent before the flood.
Uh... are you saying that man was around when Pangea was around? No.

[Trantor]

PetriFB,

It is easy to see that you actually know very little about the Bible, it's history, and Christian history in general. I suggest that you do a little research on your own, and that doesn't mean going to your preacher/church for your data.

A parrot can also quote the preacher word for word, and probably with a similar level of understanding to that expressed by most fundies.

[AWPrime]

Circular reasoning at full drive???

[slingblade]

It's not a very fun game. The pieces are glued to the board, so no one goes anywhere.

I'm gonna go play the Sims. Did you know your character can get abducted by aliens and come back home pregnant? Even if they're guys? And that the babies are green with big, black eyes? I'm gonna go build a church and install a green reverend. Then I'm going to use the Tombstone of Life and Death to make all the parishoners "alien pregnant."

Have fun storming the castle!

[I less than three logic]

Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory.
First, what scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory? Ok, I’ll let evolution slide this time, no sense opening that can of worms for more pointless debate, but honestly can you find any evidence of these scientists suspicious of the ice ages (there was more than one, in cased you didn’t know)?

Some scientists believe, that in the early years of mankind, a very large, worldwide devastation has had to take place. Fossils have been found from which have been found the remains of destroyed animals and remains of species of animals (for instance dinosaurs and mammoths). Fossils of such animals have been found in areas in which they wouldn’t live normally. This would prove that in the beginning only one large continent existed. Large lizard animals have become extinct, and many species are extinct. Fossils prove this.
Again, this didn’t happen in the "early years of mankind". It happened millions of years before humans existed. The fossils do provide evidence supporting the idea of one continent, and that many species (including dinosaurs and mammoths) have become extinct. How exactly does this support the bible in anyway? There are many, many more ways for creatures to become extinct than by a flood; more likely ways as well.

Also remains of animals have been found on the highest mountains. These all prove that a great flood has covered the earth and animals had climbed to the highest places to search for rescue, but the water covered the whole earth. From the highest mountain have also been found fish fossils, which is evidence on behalf of the flood. Fish don't live naturally on the mountains.
I suggest you retake a geology class or two. The theory of plate tectonics clearly explains how those fish fossils are within the mountains. I’d advise you pay particular attention to the chapters concerning folding and faulting.

In Antarctica and Greenland, fruit and palm trees have been found. This all proves that in the beginning there was only one large continent. In Alaska, the fossils of lions, antelopes, camels, and horses have been found.



All these discoveries have been found in a frozen state. Many think that this advocates for an ice age theory and not for the flood.
I’d like some evidence of these all being found in a frozen state. Unless you mean it was freezing out when they discovered the fossils, since that would make sense in those areas.

Now we are also starting to understand that in the beginning, the globe was covered with water canopy. This water cloak prevented harmful space radiation from affecting the earth. Our globe was like a greenhouse, in which was a global tropical. The advantage of this water canopy was to increase human longevity by preventing harmful cosmic radiation from reaching the surface of the planet. It’s because of the cosmic radiation that astronauts wear space suits. Harmful space radiation is calculated to reach down to 14 metres (45 feet) under the water’s surface. The long- aged tortoise lives deep in the sea and some even live up to a few hundreds years of age. Comparable species on the earth don't live as long, but perhaps at the most up to 40 years of age. This water canopy really enabled people to live for over 900 years. The Bible also teaches that God decreased the age of man just before the flood.



The Bible teaches that because of the wickedness of people, God opened the windows of heaven and water from the sky fell for forty days. The water canopy, which protected the earth, now rained down and caused a large catastrophe in which almost all of mankind and animals drowned. When the water canopy, which had surrounded the earth, plunged down, it achieved so large a pressure, that it froze the North Pole and the South Pole. As a consequence of the flood, the continental plates moved and formed many smaller continents. Because of this freezing of the poles, evidence has been left which shows that the earth had been one large tropical continent before the flood.
This remaining stuff seems like nonsense ranting.

[Mojo]

The Bible tells us also that in the beginning, the age of the people was very high. Man could live over 900 years. This is often difficult to believe, but because the Bible is the word of God and true, then this longevity of people can't be nonsense. On the other hand, if the Bible isn't the word of God...

What evidence do you have that the bible is the word of God?



Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory. Evidence, please. Names, citations, that sort of thing...

Some scientists believe, that in the early years of mankind, a very large, worldwide devastation has had to take place. Who?

Fossils have been found from which have been found the remains of destroyed animals and remains of species of animals (for instance dinosaurs and mammoths). Fossils of such animals have been found in areas in which they wouldn’t live normally. This would prove that in the beginning only one large continent existed. There is certainly good evidence for this, but the same evidence also shows that this was many million years before mankind appeared.

Large lizard animals have become extinct, and many species are extinct. Fossils prove this. Certainly, fossils of extinct species prove that species have become extinct, but this doesn't prove that there must have been a flood, or any other form of worldwide devastation.

Also remains of animals have been found on the highest mountains. These all prove that a great flood has covered the earth and animals had climbed to the highest places to search for rescue, but the water covered the whole earth. From the highest mountain have also been found fish fossils, which is evidence on behalf of the flood. Fish don't live naturally on the mountains. This is quite easily explained without needing to invoke a global flood. The rocks in question were formed on seabeds, but raised up into mountains when the rocks were folded as a result of the movements of the crust resulting from the break up of the single large continent you mention above and the gradual movement of the major land masses into the positions in which we see them today. And of course, all this happened many million years before mankind.


Now we are also starting to understand that in the beginning, the globe was covered with water canopy. This water cloak prevented harmful space radiation from affecting the earth. Our globe was like a greenhouse, in which was a global tropical. The advantage of this water canopy was to increase human longevity by preventing harmful cosmic radiation from reaching the surface of the planet. It’s because of the cosmic radiation that astronauts wear space suits. Harmful space radiation is calculated to reach down to 14 metres (45 feet) under the water’s surface. The long- aged tortoise lives deep in the sea and some even live up to a few hundreds years of age. Comparable species on the earth don't live as long, but perhaps at the most up to 40 years of age. This water canopy really enabled people to live for over 900 years. The Bible also teaches that God decreased the age of man just before the flood. Do you have any evidence for the existence of this "water canopy"?

The Bible teaches that because of the wickedness of people, God opened the windows of heaven and water from the sky fell for forty days. The water canopy, which protected the earth, now rained down and caused a large catastrophe in which almost all of mankind and animals drowned. When the water canopy, which had surrounded the earth, plunged down, it achieved so large a pressure, that it froze the North Pole and the South Pole.do you have any evidence for this?

As a consequence of the flood, the continental plates moved and formed many smaller continents. Because of this freezing of the poles, evidence has been left which shows that the earth had been one large tropical continent before the flood.Do you have any evidence that this breaking up of a single continent into smaller ones occurred in historical times?

NB: When I say "evidence" I don't mean anything written in the Bible. You are trying to establish that the Bible is the word of God, and therefore cannot rely on the Bible as an authority.

[Freethinker]

Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory.

No they aren't. My understanding is that according to your bible, lying is a sin. Making false scientific statements in an attempt to support your ludicrous belief in a sky-fairy is lying. Here's your statement, made into a true one:

"Today, more and more religious nutballs are trying to play scientist and using disconnected random facts to reach illogical conclusions unsupported and even unrelated to the evidence they present. "

[Cleon]

The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction. The only reasonable explanation for the formation of this lake is the flood.


Sounds like something your preacher said that you took at face value.

Lake Titicaca has over 25 rivers flowing into it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca). Your claim is incorrect.


When we speak about the biblical flood, we don't have to only look for information given by nature, but also traditional knowledge of nations proves that the flood has taken place. These stories have been found from all over the world. Many details from these stories have changed, however common elements exist, for example, that water is mentioned as the originator of the devastation.

Many of these civilizations arose in flood plains, as those lands were the most fertile for developing agriculture. For example: Mesopotamia, the Yangtse, Indus river valley.

Interestingly, Egyptian civilization, which arose on the banks of a river (Nile) with a fairly predictable flood cycle, has no "flood destroyed civilization" myth. When you consider that at the time the Noachian flood supposedly happened the Egyptians were quite merrily building their civilization, this fact is significant.


It's very interesting that the number eight and a clear reference to the flood comes into view in Chinese characters. In Chinese characters, the symbol for ship describes a boat with eight people.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you can't read or write Chinese at all. Here (http://www.formosa-translation.com/chinese/s/szz224.html)is the symbol for "ship."

The connection is there because the Chinese have preserved the traditional knowledge of the same global flood as other nations. This can’t be accident, but confirms that this Chinese tradition is compatible with the testimony of the Bible

Yet, like the Egyptians, while the global flood was supposedly going on, the Chinese didn't actually notice. They kept on going.

[Cleon]

The Bible tells us also that in the beginning, the age of the people was very high. Man could live over 900 years. This is often difficult to believe, but because the Bible is the word of God and true, then this longevity of people can't be nonsense.

Unless, of course, the Bible isn't the word of God or true.


Today, more and more scientists are suspicious of the theory of evolution and the ice age theory.

First, no, this isn't true, but it sounds like a nice creationist talking point.

Second, "ice age theory?" Since when is the Ice Age a theory? There have been several ice ages. They happened. There is no doubt of this whatsoever. That's like calling the sinking of the Titanic a "theory."


Some scientists believe, that in the early years of mankind, a very large, worldwide devastation has had to take place.

Name one.

Fossils have been found from which have been found the remains of destroyed animals and remains of species of animals (for instance dinosaurs and mammoths).

Yes, because--get this--animals spend a lot of time killing and eating each other. They also tend to have a 100% mortality rate.


Fossils of such animals have been found in areas in which they wouldn’t live normally. This would prove that in the beginning only one large continent existed.

Congratulations, you at least stayed awake for part of your geology class in high school.

Large lizard animals have become extinct, and many species are extinct. Fossils prove this.

No, the fact that the fossils exist and said animals no longer do prove it.


Also remains of animals have been found on the highest mountains. These all prove that a great flood has covered the earth and animals had climbed to the highest places to search for rescue, but the water covered the whole earth. From the highest mountain have also been found fish fossils, which is evidence on behalf of the flood. Fish don't live naturally on the mountains.

No. I see you fell back asleep after the bit about Pangea.

What it proves is that geology is constantly changing; land masses move, mountains are created, areas that were once under water then become dry land. This is nothing new, and has been known for a long, long time. Just look at the way the Mississippi has changed course over just the past hundred years.


All these discoveries have been found in a frozen state.

What the hell does "in a frozen state" mean? If they're fossils, they're not frozen corpses, they're rocks.


Now we are also starting to understand that in the beginning, the globe was covered with water canopy.

Erm...No.

As a consequence of the flood, the continental plates moved and formed many smaller continents.

Erm....No. The continental plates have always been moving, and there was no great catastrophe that set them off.

[headscratcher4]

Seems to me that fewer and fewer scientists doubt "evolution" theory...more and more Xians, on the otherhand, are trying to use the political process to promote their beliefs as "science" or verifiable as "sicence".

If more and more science are challenging evolution, it seems to me that the proof would have been in the Dover School trial...the IDers and Creationist could only come up with the most "marginal" kinds of experts available...no rush by those hordes of evolution-skeptic scientists to get in there and mix-it up.

[I less than three logic]

It’s always fun repeating things I learned in 6th grade science class. Well, actually it is a little disturbing that some people have such little understanding of these basic sciences. :(

[Meffy]

Circular reasoning at full drive???
http://www.freewebtown.com/meffy/stuffs/arsch_daggl.gif

@slingblade: I'm not too big on the Sims but am anxi^H^H^H^Hpatiently awaiting the release of Spore. =@.@= Verrry patiently. Yuppers, patiently.

[Anacoluthon64]

I see you people are doing excellently in here without me.

Call me on 666-EVIDENCE if you need some tech support. ;)

'Luthon64

[Beady]

Is it just me, or is there very littleo actual discussion going on, here? PetriFB makes a series of statments, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass without comment, he makes another series of statements, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass...

I smell a rat.

[This Guy]

Try here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/talmud.html

This looks like what you might mean:




ETA: Once again, written well after the purported event.


Without attempting to be sarcastic, PetriFB, your scholarship so far has been less than impressive.


That's it :-)

Thanks!

[Meffy]

"There were rats in the souffle again."

[H3LL]

I was going to respond to PetriFB but got an overwhelming feeling of sickness and sadness immediately followed by a strong desire to sell him something.....

I have this nail............


.

[headscratcher4]

Is it just me, or is there very littleo actual discussion going on, here? PetriFB makes a series of statments, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass without comment, he makes another series of statements, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass...

I smell a rat.

Did you expect actual discussion?

PetriFB seems to be the typical troll...more interested in hearing himself talk than defending or discussing his assertions...which, btw, leads easilly to the conclusion that he really doesn't believe much/anything he's written...just throwing a little red meat into the cage...

Anyone have some katsup?

[H3LL]

Is it just me, or is there very littleo actual discussion going on, here? PetriFB makes a series of statments, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass without comment, he makes another series of statements, we refute each one, he lets our refutations pass...

I smell a rat.

Just though it worth quoting.

Anyway, about this nail.......


.

[slingblade]

@slingblade: I'm not too big on the Sims but am anxi^H^H^H^Hpatiently awaiting the release of Spore. =@.@= Verrry patiently. Yuppers, patiently.

It's a Will Wright game, so it's good for me! :)

[Meffy]

Soooo... anyone got some good recipes for manna? Darned stuff keeps falling or sprouting, whatever the stuff does -- it's like zucchini, can't give it away this time of year. Kitchen sink's full. Help needed. Microwave recipes preferred.

[edit] Ha! There's an answer for another thread.

[Kiwiwriter]

Did you expect actual discussion?

PetriFB seems to be the typical troll...more interested in hearing himself talk than defending or discussing his assertions...which, btw, leads easilly to the conclusion that he really doesn't believe much/anything he's written...just throwing a little red meat into the cage...

Anyone have some katsup?

Yeah, it's just the same stuff. I work in a very fundamentalist city, so I recognize a lot of this material.

When I was a kid, I wasted my time arguing this stuff with those folks. Now I don't do that any more.

Usually when they come to my door, I say in a soothing voice, "I'm already very active in my religion." I don't tell them that I worship the atomic bomb and the New York Yankees. If they do ask, I tell them that I worship Gozer the Gozerian, who will come in one of the pre-chosen forms...:D

[PetriFB]

PetriFB,

It is easy to see that you actually know very little about the Bible, it's history, and Christian history in general. I suggest that you do a little research on your own, and that doesn't mean going to your preacher/church for your data.

A parrot can also quote the preacher word for word, and probably with a similar level of understanding to that expressed by most fundies.

I have taught Bible over 10 years ...I'm not perfect, but can understand something from His mercy ....

By the way: 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[PetriFB]

Did you expect actual discussion?

PetriFB seems to be the typical troll...more interested in hearing himself talk than defending or discussing his assertions...which, btw, leads easilly to the conclusion that he really doesn't believe much/anything he's written...just throwing a little red meat into the cage...

Anyone have some katsup?

It is very difficult to discuss when against is many people and a lot of challenges... I can't spend all my day to answer all of you and all of your comments, because those are too much........

Sorry about that ......

[PetriFB]

It’s always fun repeating things I learned in 6th grade science class. Well, actually it is a little disturbing that some people have such little understanding of these basic sciences. :(

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply, hypothesis, assumption, estimation, assessment, about, around and so on.....

When you are so well educated and wise why you believe to those things which are only assumptions and hypothesis?

I don't wanna believe mere hypothesis, but the truth ....but I'm not wise like you are ....

[slingblade]

Then stop posting more and more crap, will you?
Post a little crap, let people tell you how crapulent it is, and then post some more crap.

You can't flood the board and then whine that the board is flooded.

[Mojo]

It is very difficult to discuss when against is many people and a lot of challenges... I can't spend all my day to answer all of you and all of your comments, because those are too much........Hmm...

Maybe we need somebody to assemble them into a Larsen ListTM.

[PetriFB]

Hmm...

Maybe we need somebody to assemble them into a Larsen ListTM.

There is my list:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/BibleiswordofGod

You are welcome ... it is one of my articles ......

[Mojo]

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply ...Nope, don't know that one. Would you care to define it and provide examples of the circumstances in which "science very often uses" it?

[Anacoluthon64]

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply, hypothesis, assumption, estimation, assessment, about, around and so on.....

When you are so well educated and wise why you believe to those things which are only assumptions and hypothesis?

I don't wanna believe mere hypothesis, but the truth ....but I'm not wise like you are ....
Clearly, you haven't bothered to check how those terms are properly used in scientific discourse, nor how science proceeds as an enterprise. It may prove useful for you to brush up on a topic called "the scientific method" instead of immersing yourself in attractive fairy tales.

'Luthon64

[Donks]

Nope, don't know that one. Would you care to define it and provide examples of the circumstances in which "science very often uses" it?
I'm getting flashbacks of Kumar. Science is bad because things can change with new information. <Put belief here> is good because things are set in stone. If you have evidence against <Put belief here>, the evidence must be wrong. Time to dig around for the jewels of mass believe in long time.

[Mojo]

Clearly, you haven't bothered to check how those terms are properly used in scientific discourse, nor how science proceeds as an enterprise. Heck, he hasn't even bothered to check how to spell them!

[Mojo]

There is my list:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/BibleiswordofGod

You are welcome ... it is one of my articles ......I recognise it. It's the stuff you've been spamming the thread with in posts number 1, 6, 15, 20 (you got that one out of order), and 36.

[Metullus]

There is my list:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/BibleiswordofGod

You are welcome ... it is one of my articles ......
So your posts are all just cut & paste from your article? I gather you do not intend to engage in a discussion with these good people; people who have taken the time and effort to read your posts and respond.

There is a word for posters who engage in that type of behavior.



Edited to fix awkward syntax and speeling.

[Mojo]

I'm getting flashbacks of Kumar. Science is bad because things can change with new information. <Put belief here> is good because things are set in stone. If you have evidence against <Put belief here>, the evidence must be wrong. Time to dig around for the jewels of mass believe in long time.We seem to have had China, Egypt, Peru and Antarctica introduced into the thread, so I guess this stuff is well distributed... :D

[strathmeyer]

I don't wanna believe mere hypothesis, but the truth ....but I'm not wise like you are ....

What steps are you taking to figure out the truth? Perhaps we could help?

[This Guy]

There is my list:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/BibleiswordofGod

You are welcome ... it is one of my articles ......

I don't have a problem with the cut and paste, myself.

I do feel it would have been better to perhaps start with a small section, that expressed one or two points, allow and engage in debate on that before pasting more though.

That is of course assuming you believe the points will stand up to debate.

As it is, it appears that you simply want another outlet for your opinions, and have little intent to offer a defense of those opinions.

[I less than three logic]

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply, hypothesis, assumption, estimation, assessment, about, around and so on.....

When you are so well educated and wise why you believe to those things which are only assumptions and hypothesis?

I don't wanna believe mere hypothesis, but the truth ....but I'm not wise like you are ....
Despite the sarcastic tone I detect in your response, I’ll refrain from using too cynical of a reply in light of your birthday. Consider it a gift. :)

I don’t believe in only assumptions and hypotheses, but I do trust the theories and/or laws extracted from those hypotheses through meticulous investigation and/or experimentation. A good understanding of the scientific method is required before one can move on to more detailed understanding of the higher concepts of science. This is true for any field.

[Anacoluthon64]

Heck, he hasn't even bothered to check how to spell them!
True, but I wasn't going to get into the spelling thing for fear of digressing into an impolite rant. It's a pet peeve of mine, and it seems to be inordinately common with this type of poster. I may be deluded in this though.

There is a word for posters who engage in that type of behavior.
And that would be? Wait, let me get some tea and a roll... :rolleyes:

'Luthon64

[Donks]

There is my list:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/BibleiswordofGod

You are welcome ... it is one of my articles ......
So... are you going to respond to our comments regarding your article? Cause if not, I have to start googling for kitten recipes. Or kitten pictures. Or pussy.... nevermind.

[This Guy]

In defense of his spelling, from his link above I see -

"Petri Paavola from Finland"

There is also a bible quote in 4 languages -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sillä niin on Jumala maailmaa rakastanut, että hän antoi ainokaisen Poikansa, ettei yksikään, joka häneen uskoo, hukkuisi, vaan hänellä olisi iankaikkinen elämä.

Also hat Gott die Welt geliebt, daß er seinen eingeborenen Sohn gab, auf daß alle, die an ihn glauben, nicht verloren werden, sondern das ewige Leben haben.

Ty så älskade Gud världen, att han utgav sin enfödde Son, på det att var och en som tror på honom skall icke förgås, utan hava evigt liv.
Joh 3:16 -

I'm guessing one of those is what he normally speaks, though they might as well all be Greek as far as I'm concerned ;)

Point is, I've ignored the spelling/grammar for two reasons.

1 - English does not appear to be his native language.

2 - I ain't got no good English either (though I don't have his excuse;-)

[Starrman]

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply, hypothesis, assumption, estimation, assessment, about, around and so on.....


So we can either hypothesize about things, and try to deduce the facts about them to the best of our abilities, or we can grab an ancient text declare it 100% true and stop learning on the spot.

Science admits it doesn't know everything, you say you hold the absolute truth in your hands. Who is committing the sin of Pride in this case?

--

By the way, I was just on Google Earth checking out the many rivers that feed Titicaca (why can't I type that without laughing).

Will you admit that your 'facts' about Titcaca are wrong, and do not support the idea of a global flood?

[Mojo]

Will you admit that your 'facts' about Titcaca are wrong, and do not support the idea of a global flood?And while you're at it perhaps you should remove the offending "facts" from your website.

Doesn't the Bible have something to say about bearing false witness? Somewhere in Exodus or Deuteronomy...

[Miss Whiplash]

There has been many things which has happened in very short period:

One thing is when Jesus prophecied that Peter will deny Him .....

In the future:
Jesus prophecied that little before He comes back all nations start to hate those who believe to Christ Jesus.....


But written after it happened. Perhaps Sylia Browne is Jesus reborn.

[Trantor]

I have taught Bible over 10 years ...I'm not perfect, but can understand something from His mercy ....

By the way: 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ah, I see. You are a Bible teacher, with ten years experience. Ten full years of repetition! And of course I'm assuming that your students are learning the same skillls that you have mastered.

I'm suddenly filled with sadness.:(

[PetriFB]

What steps are you taking to figure out the truth? Perhaps we could help?

Man has no truth, but assumptions ...

[Anacoluthon64]

Man has no truth, but assumptions ...
Including yourself, of course. If not, how so?

'Luthon64

[Mojo]

Man has no truth, but assumptions ...Man may have no truth, but you have been perpetrating some actual falsehoods. It has been pointed out to you, for example, that Titicaca has many rivers feeding water into it. Are you prepared to concede that you were wrong about this and remove the claim that it doesn't from your website?

[PetriFB]

The flood is that kind of incident:

Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction. The only reasonable explanation for the formation of this lake is the flood. Titicaca was originally a deep valley, which became full of the water during the flood.

(Quoted from PetriFB)


This is wrong. Totally wrong.

More than 25 rivers empty into Titicaca, and the lake has 41 islands, some of which are densely populated.

Titicaca is fed by rainfall and meltwater from glaciers on the sierras that abut the Altiplano. It is drained by the Desaguadero River, which flows south through Bolivia to Lake Poopó.

From here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca)

Next time someone tells you something, spend 20 seconds checking it out before you base your beliefs on it.

Originally that lake can't be exist on so high .....initially it must have water somewhere and that is the Flood ....mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water ..............so only explanation is fierce rain as happened on the Flood ....

[Cetecea]

Dumbass.

[tanto]

Petri,

Vet du att det finns flera svenska organisationer liknande JREF? Vet inte hur det ligger till i finland men jag skulle gärna se att du diskuterade dina synpunkter på följande adresser:

www vof se
www humanisterna se

mvh

[Meffy]

mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water
So you claim. Back it up. Show us the calculations. YOUR calculations.

[Mojo]

...mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water...So are you claiming that all lakes are evidence for the flood?

[alfaniner]

Originally that lake can't be exist on so high .....initially it must have water somewhere and that is the Flood ....mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water ..............so only explanation is fierce rain as happened on the Flood ....

...or it could be sad little alien tears...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You are so well educated man, that I guess that you also know these words, which science very often uses: presumaply, hypothesis, assumption, estimation, assessment, about, around and so on.....

When you are so well educated and wise why you believe to those things which are only assumptions and hypothesis?

I don't wanna believe mere hypothesis, but the truth ....but I'm not wise like you are ....


Elements of the scientific method ( hypothetico-deductive):

Induction -- Forming a hypothesis by drawing general conclusions from existing data.

Deduction -- Making specific predictions based on the hypothesis.

Observation -- Gathering data, driven by hypothesis that tell us what to look for in nature.

Verification -- Testing the predictions against further observations to confirm or falsify the initial hypothesis.

Through the scientific method, we may form the following generalizations:

Hypothesis -- A testable statement accounting for a set of observations.

Theory -- A well-supported and well-tested hypothesis or set of hypotheses.

Fact -- A conclusion confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer provisional agreement.

Through the scientific method, we aim for objectivity: basing conclusions on external validation. And we avoid mysticism: basing conclusions on personal insights that elude external validation.

Science leads us toward rationalism: basing conclusions on logic and evidence. And science helps us avoid dogmatism: basing conclusions on authority rather than logic and evidence.

It is important to recognize the fallibility of science and the scientific method. But within this fallibility lies its greatest strength: self-correction.

A scientific law is a description of a regularly repeating action that is open to rejection or confirmation.

http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/jarrett/talks/LiU/sci_method_2.html

[I less than three logic]

Originally that lake can't be exist on so high .....initially it must have water somewhere and that is the Flood ....mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water ..............so only explanation is fierce rain as happened on the Flood ....
I suppose that the Great lakes here in North America are also evidence of the flood and were not created by glaciers?

How about the 10,000 lakes Minnesota claims on our license plates? They sure look like kettle lakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_%28geology%29) to me.

[Trantor]

PetriFB,

Speaking of Lake Titicaca. Did you know that it is infested with UFO's. Perhaps it's the UFO's that are at work here and not the Biblical flood. People report that they are constantly coming and going from that body of water. The UFO's are the one's that keep the lake filled deep with water, it makes for a better place to hide and keep their alien eyes on Man.

[PetriFB]

Titicaca lake water is saltier as content of salt on the sea......

Usually lakes are not saltier as seas ...... and water, which melts away from glaciers is fresh water not salt water .....

Salt content of Titicaca shows us that it is acheviement of the Flood .... and after Flood has come radical changes us freezing of poles... and climate has changed and cold winter affects in some area ..... and also has forms new rivers and hills and so .....

and by the way there has been found on the high mountains fish fossils, which prove that the Flood has really happened .....

How we can other way explain existence of those fish fossils?

[Mojo]

Titicaca lake water is saltier as content of salt on the sea......BZZZT (http://www.orient-express.com/web/tper/tper_destination_laketiticaca.jsp)! Today, Titicaca has a salt content of just 0.1% and is designated a fresh water lake.

[Trantor]

...or it could be sad little alien tears...

Looks like we were thinking along the same lines...

[Cleon]

Originally that lake can't be exist on so high .....initially it must have water somewhere and that is the Flood ....mere rainfall can't born a lake and not glaciers melted water ..............so only explanation is fierce rain as happened on the Flood ....

:notm

[PetriFB]

Petri,

Vet du att det finns flera svenska organisationer liknande JREF? Vet inte hur det ligger till i finland men jag skulle gärna se att du diskuterade dina synpunkter på följande adresser:

www vof se
www humanisterna se

mvh

Jag är finsk och jag kan inte tala god svensk ...but I can discuss tolerably english ...

[I less than three logic]

and by the way there has been found on the high mountains fish fossils, which prove that the Flood has really happened .....

How we can other way explain existence of those fish fossils?
You are quite dense. We already addressed your fish fossil problem. See:
I suggest you retake a geology class or two. The theory of plate tectonics clearly explains how those fish fossils are within the mountains. I’d advise you pay particular attention to the chapters concerning folding and faulting.
Here (http://www.mountainnature.com/geology/platetectonics.htm) is a site for you to look over; maybe it can explain a little bit for you.

[Trantor]

PetriFB,

Since the Earth was covered with water, even over the highest mountains; when the waters receeded, where did it go? `

[Starrman]

Titicaca lake water is saltier as content of salt on the sea......

Usually lakes are not saltier as seas ...... and water, which melts away from glaciers is fresh water not salt water .....

Salt content of Titicaca shows us that it is acheviement of the Flood .... and after Flood has come radical changes us freezing of poles... and climate has changed and cold winter affects in some area ..... and also has forms new rivers and hills and so .....

OK - second sentence in the already referenced Wikipedia article: 'It is also South America's largest FRESHWATER (caps mine) lake, with a surface area of approximately 8300 square kilometres.'

ETA: I see Mojo beat me to it

If you are going to keep making up stuff to prove this lake was caused by a global flood, we are going to be here for a while.

and by the way there has been found on the high mountains fish fossils, which prove that the Flood has really happened .....

How we can other way explain existence of those fish fossils?

How do we ever learn - if we simply give up on all explanations and assume god did it? What if Louie Pasteur would have thought of that way, or Jonas Salk?

Let me ask you this, the high mountains that have fish fossils in them, were they always high mountains? Do you know what plate tectonics are?

[PetriFB]

BZZZT (http://www.orient-express.com/web/tper/tper_destination_laketiticaca.jsp)!

Today its salt content is lower because of glacier and rainfall.....

But how you explain fish fossils on hogh mountains?

[PetriFB]

OK - second sentence in the already referenced Wikipedia article: 'It is also South America's largest FRESHWATER (caps mine) lake, with a surface area of approximately 8300 square kilometres.'

ETA: I see Mojo beat me to it

If you are going to keep making up stuff to prove this lake was caused by a global flood, we are going to be here for a while.



How do we ever learn - if we simply give up on all explanations and assume god did it? What if Louie Pasteur would have thought of that way, or Jonas Salk?

Let me ask you this, the high mountains that have fish fossils in them, were they always high mountains? Do you know what plate tectonics are?

How you explain fish fossils ...?

If mountain has not always been high it refers strongly to flood, because then is logical that those fishes swim on the sea and died in this disaster where shape of earth was formed and high mountains born ......How else those fishes could climb to high mountains? did they walk with fin?

and if those high mountains was high it is logic that they died on the flood and remained on high mountains ...

[Nyarlathotep]

But how you explain fish fossils on hogh mountains?

Depending on the circumstances, there are several explanations. One is, as has already been explained to you, plate tectonics pushing the mountians up after the fossils have been deposited. The other is that sometimes a lake or river existed in the spot that has long since dried up. For example, you will find aquatic fossils all over Nevada, including up in the mountains, because Nevada was mostly one big lake, several million years ago.

[De_Bunk]

PetriFB...

How do you logically explain a big invisible being that lives in the sky, that has never, ever proven itself to exist...

Until then...

DB

[PetriFB]

The beginning of the universe. Also the scientists believe that the present universe can’t be eternal. Therefore it has been presented different theories such as the initial explosion theory and theories about that, how the galaxies, stars, solar system and globe have been born.



Life on earth can’t be eternal, because limited energy reserves of the sun are as an obstacle. It can’t have warmed eternally, otherwise its energy reserves would have failed. Without the sun the temperature of the air would be almost –273 degrees, in other words a condition, in which everything would be frozen and life wouldn’t be possible.



The initial explosion theory is clearly the most general theory about the beginning of the universe. According to it from one small point, of which volume was perhaps only the size of the point of a pin, has come the present universe: billions of galaxies, in which everyone there are a hundred billion stars, the sun which is warming, the globe and other planets, the mountains, seas and rivers, trees, fishes, mankind, mosquitoes, birds, giraffes… It is required a lot of belief, if it is thought that all these things have come from this kind of small space.



About the birth of galaxies and stars is discussed and problematic is, how gas suddenly would have started to condense to large objects. Many deny this theory. Problematic are also such things, that from which have been born the revolving and rotary motions, which can be observed everywhere in space, because the initial explosion couldn’t have caused them.

In the same way as a problem is to see birth of these heavenly bodies also nowadays. For if the galaxies and stars have been born during 10 – 20 billions years, so according to it should be born every year an average 10 new galaxies and 1000 billions new stars. Why the birth of them is not however observed?



In the birth of solar system are problematic for instance the composition of the planets and their composition compared with their own moons and the sun. For example the small inner planets are solid and are composed of heavy elements while in the sun there is only light elements such as hydrogen and helium.

In addition to this problematic are the atmospheres and motions of the planets and the moons, because they are not uniform.



The birth of life. When it is a question of the birth of life, so there is still an abyss between living and lifeless material. In laboratories it has not been able to create life, but only those materials, which are connected with it. In fact a dead body contains just right materials, but in it there is neither life.



The life birth experiments require an atmosphere free from oxygen, but the Precambrian rocks indicate that in them there has been oxygenated iron minerals, in other words then there has been free oxygen. It would be also strange that there wouldn’t have been oxygen, because at the same time there has been water and water vapour together with hydrogen. The composition of the initial atmosphere should have also been just opposite compared with the current; for then it was lacked oxygen and was hydrogen, while the current atmosphere is opposite of this.

One great problem of the life birth experiments is also, that the water surplus would have immediately dispersed combinations back to their structural elements and the forming of proteins wouldn’t have succeeded.



The remains of the Cambrian period and other fossils. According to an ordinary view evolution has gone from simple beginning to more and more complicated forms. However, for example the remains of the Cambrian period appear into layers suddenly, plentifully and fully prepared and developed without simpler forms, which preceded them.

The other intermediate fossils – with their half developed wings, hands, feet and senses – are missing too, even though there should be in the ground plenty of them. In the same way, observing of the similar intermediate fossils is difficult also nowadays.



Prokaryotes and eukaryotes are two cell types, between which it has not been found any intermediate forms from the ground and neither nowadays, but between them there is a steep border. The latter of them have a nucleus and they are about 1000 times larger than prokaryotes.



Multicellulars. When it is a question of multicellulars and their evolution, so there is not clear proofs that they would have come from monocellurars. Their birth is still an enigma.



The evolution of the plants. The plants appear into the layers suddenly and fully prepared, and it is difficult to find any preceding simpler evolution phases from the layers.



Moving from sea onto land is a problem, because how the fishes could breathe, eat and reproduce on dry land.



From small to big. How it was possible that organism, of which size was like the size of a bacterium or a fly, could change into elephant or other big animals?



Complicated organs such as breathing, circulation, digestive system and reproductive organs are problematic, if they were not ready immediately. As a consequence would have been immediately or quite soon becoming extinct.

On the other hand, the fossils, which have been found from the ground, are not half- but fully developed.



Mutations. When it has been considered, what matters take evolution forward, generally the mutations and natural selection has been mentioned as the most important factors.

The mutation experiments, which have been made millions and millions of times for example with banana fly, have however indicated that any new species has not been born. Banana fly has not changed for example into wasp, worm or butterfly, but in the experiments has been observed certain borders, which have been impossible to cross.



Natural selection has been mentioned as the second factor, which takes evolution forward. It can’t however create anything new, but it selects only from that, which is old and ready. In addition to this, selection carried out by man, in other words refining, has indicated that in it there are certain borders, which have been impossible to cross.



Archaeopteryx is used as one of the best proofs of evolution and as the intermediate form between lizards and birds. However, other birds have been found from “millions of years older” layers than it, and therefore it can’t be the progenitor of them and neither any intermediate form.



The evolution series of horse is not from the same overlapping layers, but it has been collected even from different continents. Anything doesn’t prove that they are in some descending relationship with each other. Remains of the current horse have been found from older layers than the bones of Eohippus, in other words on grounds of this Eohippus can't be at least the progenitor of the current horse.



Peppered moths and bacteria, which have been used as convincing arguments of evolution, are as a matter of fact all the time the same species. For example in peppered moths there is difference only in number of dark and light modifications, but the species is all the time the same – such as there are long and short, black and white people. The bacteria are neither changing into other species, but there is only a question of bacteria with better resisting power, and increasing of their populations.



Rudiments are one of those matters, which may have been used as a important proof of evolution, even though nowadays it has been noted that almost each of them have their own important task. On the other hand the rudiments are not any proof of evolution, but of regression. Real evolution is only that, if new and useful organs were born.



The evolution of embryo and similar early stages don’t necessarily be any proof of evolution. A surprise would rather be, if all the organisms had quite different early stages. On the other hand the seeds of plants can resemble mostly each other, but in any case from them becomes quite different plants.



Similar structure (in feet, hands) is a proof of it, that the animals have been made for the similar world; it is not necessarily a proof of evolution. On the other hand a bat wouldn’t be a bat and a horse wouldn’t be a horse, if their limbs were different. What kind of the structure of animals then should be, and what benefit of them then would be, if they were quite different?



Similarity of blood is a matter, which has been used as a proof of evolution. However according to it whale and tiger should be close relatives, such as also man and rat.



Australopithecus, which is regarded as the progenitor of man, is on grounds of its skull form and also on grounds of its size clearly apish. The volume of its brains (400 cm3) is the same as of the current chimpanzees and gorillas. Many researchers deny its position as the progenitor of man.



The Man of Java was regarded for many decades as the most important find on this area. However the found parts of it - a piece of a skull, 3 teeth and a left femur - were situated from each other at its best at a distance of 15 metres, and still the sixth part, in other words the part of a mandible, was found from the other side of the island at a distance of about 40 kilometres from the other parts. In the same way from the area of the first find place was found still about 27 relics of other different animals.

In addition to this Eugene Dubois, who made the finds, said himself many years later that that the piece of the skull was indeed a skull of a Gibbon. In the same way he said, that from the same layers has been found also bones, which clearly belonged to today's man.



Pildtown man, which for a long time was regarded as the second important find just after the Man of Java, and on whom was written over 500 dissertations, was a fake.



The slight evidence. When it is a question of the evidence of man’s evolution, it has been said, that there are researchers more than fossils, and that the whole evidence would go in one coffin and space would remain still also over it.



Today's people in older layers. One remarkable point is that remains of today’s people have been found several times from older layers than their fossilised forefathers – in other words they must have been at least as old as these "old forefathers".

For example Lady Guadeloupe and Calaveras-skull are examples of this. They resemble perfectly remains of today’s man, but they were found from layers, of which age was “25-28 million years”, in other words they should have been many times older than their fossilised forefathers.



The use of language is not a proof of evolution, but of regression. Every known primitive tribe has its own grammar and the vocabulary of thousands of words.



The interpretation value of red shift has been used to support the present view on old age of the universe. However, it is significant, that as value of drawing away was regarded before only about tenth part of the current value. This would mean, that the universe would then have been ten times younger than the current supposed age.



The small amount of space dust for instance on moon and on earth proves that they can’t be tremendously old. If this nickel-ferrous dust would have come onto moon and onto earth about for 5 billion years, we should see it on their surfaces about 50-200 meters ( 54-218 yards). In fact there is it for example on moon only about a few millimetres, which proves against long periods.



Comets. It is known about comets that the largest part of them evaporates away about in 10,000 years. On the other hand that, that there is still motion of comets and that there is not clear proofs of the birth of new comets, indicates, that they in any way can’t be 5 billion years old.



The earth’ s magnetic field loses half of its strength at intervals of about 1400 years. If the weakening of the field has continued as similar for 50,000 years, the strength of the field would have then been formerly like of a white dwarf star.



The contraction speed of the sun is according to some examinations about 0,1 % per century, in other words 38 metres per day. This would have made life impossible already less than million years ago.



Drawing away of the moon. It has been noticed that the moon escapes away from the earth continually about 4,5 centimetres (1.7 inches) every year. According to these calculations the moon should have even been fastened to the earth about 1,4 billion years ago.



The pressure of oil in oil wells indicates that they have at the most age of 10,000 years.



The accumulation of sediments onto the river deltas, the flow of minerals into seas are some ways to measure time. These observations of practise don’t indicate any age of billions of years, but many times smaller readings, in other words from a few hundred years to some millions of years.



The history of the mankind. The earliest notes about the history of the mankind reach only about 5000 years backwards in time. In addition to this the archaeological finds indicate that such things as using of metals, ceramics, buildings, ability to write and farming have all come up simultaneously into the world only some thousands years ago.



Increase in population. If there were people already 16,000 years ago, so according to the present increase in population there should be on earth now about 1 099 510,000 000 residents, which is almost 200 times larger than the current population. According to the same increase in population there should have been on the globe 4000 years ago about 5 million residents, which seems to be quite a right estimate.



The radioactive measurements are based on suppositions, which can’t be proved. The best method is carbon-14 method (organic specimens), but in it the earth’s magnetic field can distort timings so that they are older than in fact are.

The results with these methods have changed strongly so that from stones have been measured very different contents, in other words assumed ages (For example, when it has been examined age of Grand Canyon’s strata, was got "to the young" basalt rock of the uppermost strata 270 million years more than "thousands of million years old" stone stratum, which was on the bottom of the canyon.) The contents of stones don’t necessarily be in any connection with their real age.



The strata of the earth. According to the evolution view the strata of the earth have been born during millions of years. However, the observations of practise indicate that they have been born quickly, because…



- Inside from the earth’s strata are found long trunk- and other fossils, which can go through “millions of years old” strata. Certainly these trees are not millions of years old, but the ground masses (as a consequence of the Flood?) have been formed around them very quickly, perhaps only in a few days.



- In connection with St Helen’s volcano eruption in 1980 it happened, that it was formed a series of overlapping strata, of which thickness was at its best almost two hundred metres, and only during a few weeks. To this everything didn’t so need millions of years, but only a few days.



- Lacking of erosion between the strata indicates that they have formed over each other quite in a very short time and not during millions of years.



- One clear proof of fast stratification of the strata are the fossils in them. They can't be born in any other way except by being buried very quickly, because otherwise the plants and the animals would have putrefied quickly or other animals would have eaten them. The Flood mentioned in the Bible can certainly best explain this kind of being buried, because in normal conditions they are not born. Generally the researchers admit that the birth of fossils and strata can be explained best by unusual catastrophes in nature.



- One indication of that, that the strata can’t be millions of years old, are the finds made from them. So for example from the very oldest Precambrian stratum has been found 4000 years old tree and pollen. On the other hand things and skulls belonged to man has been found from “300 million years old” coal seams, in other words at time, which had to be long before the dinosaurs. In the same way it has been found human skeletons from cretaceous sediments and foot prints from “250 million years old” strata from several separate areas. If these strata really are so old, so man must have lived then, but hardly any scientist believes in this kind of possibility.

Also it has been found remains of trilobites under a child's footprint and under a sandal. These animals is believed to have died already long before the dinosaurs.



The geological chart is one method in definition of age. It is however good to notice that from any part of the world has not been found any perfect stratigraphic sequence, but only parts of it. For example from Grand Canyon has been found only five of the twelve most important strata.

The strata are also in incorrect order so that many "old" strata are over of "younger" (the Alps, Pakistan, Grand Canyon), even though their should be just on the contrary.

It is also good to notice that this chart has been formed originally on an area, which covers only small part of the globe, and it has been made during at the time when people didn’t know much about fossils, which are inside of the ground.



The periods of millions of years or ecological compartments? When it has been presented that the fossils, which have been found from the ground, testify of evolution from sea onto land and the order of evolution (1. trilobites and other organisms, of which many lived on silt bottoms of seas, 2. fishes, 3. frog animals, 4. reptiles, 5. birds and mammals), so they testify rather of ecological compartments, not of that, that they would have lived in different time.

For nowadays too there are sea-, marsh-, highlands-, mountain- and other corresponding zones, in which live different animals. It would rather be a surprise, if the trilobites and other animals of the sea-bed had lived on dry land or in the mountains. It would also be a surprise, if the bears, cows and other mammals had lived on the sea-beds – it certainly wouldn’t have succeeded. In other words these animals can have lived simultaneously, but only in different zones. The trilobites and other animals of the sea-bed would be buried also nowadays in the lowest layers, while the frog animals, reptiles, mammals and birds would be left above them. Their find places are not a proof of evolution or that they would have lived in different time on earth, but only a proof of ecological compartments.



The living fossils indicate how people can be wrong with tens of millions of years.

[Trantor]

Let me ask you this, the high mountains that have fish fossils in them, were they always high mountains? Do you know what plate tectonics are?

Fundies don't believe in plate tectonics, or carbon dating, or evolution, or astronomy, or secular history, or genetics...

Everything they need is in their little black Bible. And even that is cherry-picked.

[PetriFB]

PetriFB...

How do you logically explain a big invisible being that lives in the sky, that has never, ever proven itself to exist...

Until then...

DB

To me and many He has proved Himself .....

He have healed my hip, which was many years very bad ......... He has express Himself to me by many ways ..........

[De_Bunk]

PertitFB

How did God heal your hip...What did they do...???


DB

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

RE PetriFB post #107: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

[Nyarlathotep]

Ah, another person whose philosophy is "I can't understand the explanations for some things, so God must have done it"

Yawn.

[PetriFB]

PertitFB

How did God heal your hip...What did they do...???


DB

By prayer in the name of Jesus Christ He removed pain away from it ....

and those pains haven't come back to hip, but are away .....doctors didn't believe me, but I know that pain is gone and has been gone many years ...lol

[This Guy]

Today its salt content is lower because of glacier and rainfall.....

But how you explain fish fossils on hogh mountains?

From the link on the Lake -

"This immense body of water was formed by tectonic movements. When the Nasca plate met the Andes plate the latter was pushed up to form the world’s longest mountain chain and between its eastern and western ranges, what was once the ocean floor became the altiplano, covered still by sea water. "

No flood needed for the salt. The water that initially formed the lake was sea water. It's been diluted over the years from rain and river input, along with it's feed off.

As for the fish on mountains, think of someone making fresh raisin bread by hand. sprinkling some raisins on top of the flat dough, then rolling and kneading it until the raisins are spread throughout the dough. (NOTE:I've never made, or watched anyone make raisin bread, but it seemed like a good way to picture the effect :-)

When the land masses shift around, the "things" that are in/on the earth being shifted (dead fish in that part of the earth that started on the ocean floor) get spread out in a similar fashion. So, what was at the bottom of the ocean, ends up on top of a mountain. Once again, no need for a flood to explain it.

By the way, if Noah took the only surviving animals, and Australia broke off from the other land masses over 100,000 years ago, why are Kangaroos (and other animals) only native there? Did Noah toss the roos from the mountain he landed on? I believe the bible only allows a few thousand years (6000-7000) from creation till now. An after thought on God's part? Aliens maybe?

Also, nice to see your at least sticking around to defened your views! I think your wrong, but nice that you trying. Maybe we'll all learn something from this.

I've already learned of a lake with a name that makes people laugh (including me;)

[Cetecea]

I repeat... Dumbass.

Makes claim.


Claim challenged and disproved.


Makes claim again.


Claim disproved. Again


Does not address that claim was disproved.


Makes new claim.


Perpetual dumbass.

[Nyarlathotep]

I repeat... Dumbass.

Makes claim.


Claim challenged and disproved.


Makes claim again.


Claim disproved. Again


Does not address that claim was disproved.


Makes new claim.


Perpetual dumbass.

Close. The "Makes new claim" part should read "Makes a gazillion new claims, in hopes that everyone will miss or not bother with one of them, thus allowing him to claim victory." Fairly standard tactic, really.

[Cleon]

The beginning of the universe. Also the scientists believe that the present universe can’t be eternal. Therefore it has been presented different theories such as the initial explosion theory and theories about that, how the galaxies, stars, solar system and globe have been born.
No. You've got it backwards. Scientists believe the universe isn't eternal because of the evidence in favor of the Big Bang theory.


Life on earth can’t be eternal, because limited energy reserves of the sun are as an obstacle. It can’t have warmed eternally, otherwise its energy reserves would have failed. Without the sun the temperature of the air would be almost –273 degrees, in other words a condition, in which everything would be frozen and life wouldn’t be possible.

Uh, so?


The initial explosion theory is clearly the most general theory about the beginning of the universe. According to it from one small point, of which volume was perhaps only the size of the point of a pin, has come the present universe: billions of galaxies, in which everyone there are a hundred billion stars, the sun which is warming, the globe and other planets, the mountains, seas and rivers, trees, fishes, mankind, mosquitoes, birds, giraffes… It is required a lot of belief, if it is thought that all these things have come from this kind of small space.

Yes, said point (called a "singularity") was of incredibly high density. Density is measured by mass divided by volume; you'll notice that lead has a higher density than, say, helium.


About the birth of galaxies and stars is discussed and problematic is, how gas suddenly would have started to condense to large objects.
That's only problematic to someone who's never seen water vapor condense into droplets. Size is immaterial, the concept is the same.


Many deny this theory.
Only if by "man" you mean "creationists who don't want to accept it."


Problematic are also such things, that from which have been born the revolving and rotary motions, which can be observed everywhere in space, because the initial explosion couldn’t have caused them.

It's called gravitation. It hasn't been problematic for a couple centuries now.


In the same way as a problem is to see birth of these heavenly bodies also nowadays. For if the galaxies and stars have been born during 10 – 20 billions years, so according to it should be born every year an average 10 new galaxies and 1000 billions new stars. Why the birth of them is not however observed?

You're obviously as educated about astronomy as you are about Lake Titicaca.


In the birth of solar system are problematic
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


for instance the composition of the planets and their composition compared with their own moons and the sun. For example the small inner planets are solid and are composed of heavy elements while in the sun there is only light elements such as hydrogen and helium.
I see you are educated about physics as you are about astronomy and Lake Titicaca.


The birth of life. When it is a question of the birth of life, so there is still an abyss between living and lifeless material. In laboratories it has not been able to create life, but only those materials, which are connected with it. In fact a dead body contains just right materials, but in it there is neither life.
Finally, a cogent point. However, if it can be shown that the building blocks of life can arise spontaneously, why is it such a stretch to think that said building blocks can become more substantial?


The life birth experiments require an atmosphere free from oxygen,
No, they don't.


One great problem of the life birth experiments is also, that the water surplus would have immediately dispersed combinations back to their structural elements and the forming of proteins wouldn’t have succeeded.
You really know very little about these experiments, don't you?



The remains of the Cambrian period and other fossils. According to an ordinary view evolution has gone from simple beginning to more and more complicated forms. However, for example the remains of the Cambrian period appear into layers suddenly, plentifully and fully prepared and developed without simpler forms, which preceded them.

No.


The other intermediate fossils – with their half developed wings, hands, feet and senses – are missing too, even though there should be in the ground plenty of them. In the same way, observing of the similar intermediate fossils is difficult also nowadays.

What? No, this doesn't make any sense at all.


The evolution of the plants. The plants appear into the layers suddenly and fully prepared, and it is difficult to find any preceding simpler evolution phases from the layers.

This is not correct.


Moving from sea onto land is a problem, because how the fishes could breathe, eat and reproduce on dry land.

Oh, sweet jumping juicy jebus. There are plenty of aquatic creatures that breathe. There are also plenty that occasionally come on land.



I'm stopping there. It's clear that you prefer bald assertion to any sort of actual research. You simply do not know what you're talking about.

[Beady]

It is very difficult to discuss when against is many people and a lot of challenges... I can't spend all my day to answer all of you and all of your comments, because those are too much........

OK, fine. Let's discuss just one of your assertions at a time. Just one. I propose, for openers, your assertion that Lake Titicaca is proof that the flood happened because there are no known sources for its water. Others have countered that no fewer than 5 rivers empty into Lake Titicaca.

So, is Lake Titicaca proof of the Flood, or not? Do fiverivers empty into Titicaca, or dont they? If they do, why did you state that they don't exist; if they don't, how do you account for the map?

[Donks]

Ok, I can now see where this is going...
Lake Titicaca in Peru is the highest altitude lake in the world. The existence of the lake is a large enigma, which has occupied many researchers. Water doesn't flow into the lake from any direction.
This is wrong. Totally wrong.

More than 25 rivers empty into Titicaca, and the lake has 41 islands, some of which are densely populated.
Titicaca lake water is saltier as content of salt on the sea......
BZZZT (http://www.orient-express.com/web/tper/tper_destination_laketiticaca.jsp)!Today, lTiticaca has a salt content of just 0.1% and is designated a fresh water lake.
Today its salt content is lower because of glacier and rainfall.....

This is a clear pattern of falsehoods and shifting the goalposts. You are clearly a dumbass. If you are going to claim that the lake takes no water from anywhere, you can't say that the water it takes is the reason why another of your idiotic assertions is not really false, even if it clearly is. Try to keep at least some semblance of cohesiveness in your arguments, otherwise you look completely idiotic.

[Forty-Two]

I repeat... Dumbass.

Makes claim.


Claim challenged and disproved.


Makes claim again.


Claim disproved. Again


Does not address that claim was disproved.


Makes new claim.


Perpetual dumbass.
We all know where this leads... An eventual breach of either Rule 4 or Rule 8, a "PetriFB has been suspended" thread, then an "I protest PetriFB's suspension!" thread...

All kidding aside, PetriFB, I urge you to examine the posts where people have replied to your statements. You claim to have come here for discussion, but instead of a dialogue, you post the same statements without addressing the issues raised by other participants. Follow their example -- they quote a portion of your post, write a response that deals directly with the quoted text, and move the conversation forward. Please keep up.

[PetriFB]

No flood needed for the salt. The water that initially formed the lake was sea water. It's been diluted over the years from rain and river input, along with it's feed off.


How you explain it that why it was initially salt sea water?

lol.......

All scientist admit that some big catastrophic has happened to the earth....

- It has been estimated that in the Karroo region of South-Africa there would be about 800 billions of skeletal remains of vertebrates (Robert Broom's article in the Science newspaper of January, in the year 1959). This large grave find indicates that it cannot be a question of any natural event. The animals must have been buried very quickly. Generally, this kind of burial is explained in the best way by mass destruction such as the Flood, which can also accumulate strata on animals instantaneously.

- One special matter is the permafrost in Alaska and Siberia, because it can include millions of tons of animals’ bones. Significantly, several of these animals have been large mammals, which would not get along in cold conditions and they themselves could not be buried in any way, or be put into the ground. The next description, which is from the book "Maailman Luonto”, discusses this matter. It indicates how these large animals were found deep in the underground together with different kinds of vegetation:

... Of particular interest here is the fact that the permafrost in Alaska and in Siberia can include noticeable amounts of bones and meat, and half-rotted vegetation and other remains of the organism world. In some places, these form a notable part of the whole soil. A considerable part of the remains is from large animals such as from hairy rhinoceroses, giant lions, beavers, buffaloes, musk, oxen, mammoths, and hairy elephants, which have become extinct. That is why it is clear that the climate of Alaska was much warmer before it became frozen.

- An indication of the large mass graves are also the remains of rhinoceroses, camels, wild-boars and innumerable other animals in Agate Spring of Nebraska. According to the experts on this area, over 9000 remains of these large sized animals have been buried here.

- From Odessa of Russia, remains of animals were excavated in 1845 and bones belonging to more than 100 bears and of horses, boars, mammoths, rhinoceroses, buffaloes, deer, wolves, hyenas, different insect eaters, rodents, otters, pine-martens and foxes were found. These were upside down with different plant remains and birds, and even with fishes (!). This presentation of fishes among these country animals seems to be a clear reference to the Flood.

- In Palermo, Italy, mounds with a large quantity of hippo’s bones were found. As there are also young hippos' bones among the finds, they did not die in natural circumstances. The presence of these young hippos refers clearly to the Flood.

- Cave finds in Yorkshire in England, in China, in the east coast of USA and in Alaska, where a large number of skeletal remains of herbivores and carnivores were discovered. In Yorkshire, England skeletal remains of elephants, rhinoceros, hippo, horse, wild reindeer, tiger, bear, wolf, horse, fox, rabbit, and many birds were found in a cave. Generally, these animals, which can eat each other, would not in any case stay together.

- One example of large grave finds is from France, where more than 10,000 skeletal remains of horses were found.

- Finds of large cemeteries of dinosaurs have also been made. For example, in Belgium many hundreds, even thousands of bones of small dinosaurs were found 300 metres deep in clay stratum. In Montana of USA, about 10,000 bones of duck lizard were found, and from Canadian Alberta graves in which many hundreds of bones of rhinoceros lizards were also found. In addition to this, smaller grave finds related to dinosaurs have been made in different places around the world. It is likely that these animals have been simultaneously devastated. (For example in the book "The age of dinosaur", by well-known evolution researcher Björn Kurten, it is mentioned that several fossils of dinosaurs have been found in the swimming position, their heads twisted backwards, as in a mortal struggle.)

Trunk fossils in disorder and upside down.

Such as has been earlier noted, trunk fossils have been in different parts of the world that are located underground and they reach through many different layers. Very often these trunks and logs are as one mass with sludge, bones and mud, and theirs roots are also upside down, which is evidence of a large devastation. They must have been buried very quickly into stratums of the ground - otherwise there would not have been so many of these fossils found of these trees and animals.

[Moochie]

Fundies are such fun :D

M.

[Freethinker]

Petri,

If you really believe all of this, you need to seek professional help. I'd recommend a psychiatrist so you can get the medication you need.

You haven't stated one true fact in any of your delusional rantings. Your attempts to support your outlandish theories with lies and twisted facts is laughable and pathetic.

[Cleon]

Do a google on the crap he's posting. Not only is he just repeating the crap he posted on his website, he's spamming other boards, as well.

[Donks]

Petri: If you are going to try, in yet another laughable attempt to appear to have brain function, to suport your ************ theory about the flood with the existance of fossils I suggest you on;y provide fossils that died all at the same time. Otherwise it's just more evidence of your lack of a brain.

[PetriFB]

Fundies are such fun :D

M.

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lol

[Cleon]

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lol

You're assuming that everyone who's calling you on your ********* is an atheist. Once again, and hardly a surprise this time, you are in error.

[Donks]

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lol
Then there are those that use strawmen and believe their arguments are actually valid.

[PetriFB]

Carbon method is based on there, that plants suck from the air carbon dioxide and radioactive isotope, C14. From the plants it gets into body of herbivores and carnivores. After the death, its acquisition ceases and amount slowly reduces. What less radiocarbon is in specimen , it older it is in principle. In carbon-method is in any case its own problems. One example about that are bones, which dated 30,000 years old, and bones were on top of tree, which dated 16,000 years old. Another classical C14-problem examples are 11 specimens in Iraq in prehistoric village called Jarmo, and ages of those 11 specimens changed from the few year to the 6000 year. However, the analysis of the archeological proves indicated that village has been exist at the most 500 year, and after that it was perfectly deserted.

From the castle of Oxford taken stucco specimens gave age of 7 270 year; However, castle was built only 800 years ago. This indicate, that we cannot know absorption and fragmentation of carbon.

From Shefferville's iron mine in Canada was found for petrifaction tree for layer (which in every tables are based behind 600 million years) later it was said originated for younger period, 'only ' from period of 100 million year. Two independent carbon research gave its age however only about 4000 year.

Carbon method is unreliable method and we cannot trust to it!

You can trust such kind ot methods, which are false and making wrong timings ..lol

[Cleon]

Carbon method is based on there, that plants suck from the air carbon dioxide and radioactive isotope, C14. From the plants it gets into body of herbivores and carnivores. After the death, its acquisition ceases and amount slowly reduces. What less radiocarbon is in specimen , it older it is in principle. In carbon-method is in any case its own problems. One example about that are bones, which dated 30,000 years old, and bones were on top of tree, which dated 16,000 years old. Another classical C14-problem examples are 11 specimens in Iraq in prehistoric village called Jarmo, and ages of those 11 specimens changed from the few year to the 6000 year. However, the analysis of the archeological proves indicated that village has been exist at the most 500 year, and after that it was perfectly deserted.

From the castle of Oxford taken stucco specimens gave age of 7 270 year; However, castle was built only 800 years ago. This indicate, that we cannot know absorption and fragmentation of carbon.

From Shefferville's iron mine in Canada was found for petrifaction tree for layer (which in every tables are based behind 600 million years) later it was said originated for younger period, 'only ' from period of 100 million year. Two independent carbon research gave its age however only about 4000 year.

Carbon method is unreliable method and we cannot trust to it!

You can trust such kind ot methods, which are false and making wrong timings ..lol

Also posted here (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t62806.html).

I could write a Perl script that would post everything Petri does and ignore the responses just as efficiently.

[Donks]

Carbon method is based on there, that plants suck from the air carbon dioxide and radioactive isotope, C14. From the plants it gets into body of herbivores and carnivores. After the death, its acquisition ceases and amount slowly reduces. What less radiocarbon is in specimen , it older it is in principle. In carbon-method is in any case its own problems. One example about that are bones, which dated 30,000 years old, and bones were on top of tree, which dated 16,000 years old. Another classical C14-problem examples are 11 specimens in Iraq in prehistoric village called Jarmo, and ages of those 11 specimens changed from the few year to the 6000 year. However, the analysis of the archeological proves indicated that village has been exist at the most 500 year, and after that it was perfectly deserted.

From the castle of Oxford taken stucco specimens gave age of 7 270 year; However, castle was built only 800 years ago. This indicate, that we cannot know absorption and fragmentation of carbon.

From Shefferville's iron mine in Canada was found for petrifaction tree for layer (which in every tables are based behind 600 million years) later it was said originated for younger period, 'only ' from period of 100 million year. Two independent carbon research gave its age however only about 4000 year.

Carbon method is unreliable method and we cannot trust to it!

You can trust such kind ot methods, which are false and making wrong timings ..lol

Let's see... Carbon dating is only good for up to 50-60k years, so who used it to date something 600 million years old? Nobody, it's yet another lie from you. Doesn't the Bible say something about bearing false witness?

[thaiboxerken]

Your god is weak, Petri. I could kick his ass, heck Jacob already did and I'm sure I could kick Jacobs ass too. Find a better god to worship.

[PetriFB]

Fragmentation phases of the earth's radioactive material have been held as the most accurate evidences about billion years age of the globe. Resulting as the fragmentation of Helium- gas, however has not been found for the atmosphere. Helium-content of the atmosphere is indeed strong proof for the young age of the globe. The conflict between these two matters has been already over 50 year.

Year 1969 Nobel-candidate, professor Melvin Cook, examined many years amount of helium which was in the atmosphere and its accrual. On the basis of his research, he came to this result, that helium-4, which was in the atmosphere slight amount derives for the young age of the globe. Part for helium-4 of the atmosphere is born for breaking of active isotopes (eg. uranium). Deep in the depth of the earth been born slippery motion helium gets through a stone and a ground stratums and mixes finally to the group of other gases in the atmosphere.

In the earth being amount of radioactive materials fragmentation, which produce helium has been been able to assess accurately. However, there can't found enough amounts for the atmosphere. In the atmosphere being amonut of helium should be million times larger as is current, if globe would be 4.5 billion year old. Melvin Cook indeed asked in Nature-journal already in year 1957 for supporters of evolution: "where is as the result of the radioactive subjects fragmentation being born helium? ( "Where is the Earth´s Radiogenic Helium? " Nature, Vol. 179 No 213/1957 ja "Prehistory and Earth Models ", 1966).

Slight amount of helium has been significant scientific proof for the young age of the globe atmosphere.

[Cleon]

Let's see... Carbon dating is only good for up to 50-60k years, so who used it to date something 600 million years old? Nobody, it's yet another lie from you. Doesn't the Bible say something about bearing false witness?

"Torah does not prohibit a person from being stupid." - Rabbi Aviezer Ravitzky

[Moochie]

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lol

My, you are so droll! :D

Surely you realize you're wasting your time here?

Evidence is like oxygen -- without it we are reduced to recipes.

M.

[PetriFB]

What more measurements we examine so they are more unreliable. From the shellfish which are living in the sweet water was taken specimens and they gave in carbon measurement the age of the thousands years; Science, Vol. 141/1963 . 30 years old seal carcasses age were 4600 year in carbon measurments; Antartic Journal of the US. Just shot seal age was got 1300 year in carbon measurments. When from the same plot was taken different measurements, measurement difference were over 15000 years; New Zealand Journal of Geology and Geophysics, Vol 21/1978.

American professor the expert of Nile valley professor Brew told, that archeologists define age of archeological discovery often themselves according to their own view point.

Carbon is very unreliable and we cannot hold it as the fact, but only as estimation!

Fragmentation phases of the earth's radioactive material have been held as the most accurate evidences about billion years age of the globe. Resulting as the fragmentation of Helium- gas, however has not been found for the atmosphere. Helium-content of the atmosphere is indeed strong proof for the young age of the globe. The conflict between these two matters has been already over 50 year.

Year 1969 Nobel-candidate, professor Melvin Cook, examined many years amount of helium which was in the atmosphere and its accrual. On the basis of his research, he came to this result, that helium-4, which was in the atmosphere slight amount derives for the young age of the globe. Part for helium-4 of the atmosphere is born for breaking of active isotopes (eg. uranium). Deep in the depth of the earth been born slippery motion helium gets through a stone and a ground stratums and mixes finally to the group of other gases in the atmosphere.

In the earth being amount of radioactive materials fragmentation, which produce helium has been been able to assess accurately. However, there can't found enough amounts for the atmosphere. In the atmosphere being amonut of helium should be million times larger as is current, if globe would be 4.5 billion year old. Melvin Cook indeed asked in Nature-journal already in year 1957 for supporters of evolution: "where is as the result of the radioactive subjects fragmentation being born helium? ( "Where is the Earth´s Radiogenic Helium? " Nature, Vol. 179 No 213/1957 ja "Prehistory and Earth Models ", 1966).

Slight amount of helium has been significant scientific proof for the young age of the globe atmosphere.

[Nyarlathotep]

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lol

Oooooh, argument by bad analogy is so much fun, let me take a crack at it.

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is a cave with stalactites, stalagmites, neat rock formations, a source of water and blind cave fish. Believers believe someone must have dug a big hole in the ground, carved the stalactites and stalagmites out of rock, glued them in place, set up a water supply, genetically engineered the fish to be blind then stocked the cave with them.....lol

Other group decides the water cut a channel into soft limestone, caused the stalactites and stalagmites by natural means and the fish that lived int he water all along, before there was a cave, lost their sight because it no longer posed an advantage for them to have it in their new environment.

See, constructing a strawman from an analogy is easy and fun.

[PetriFB]

To the famous Torino shroud was made C-14-radiocarbon measurement in year 1988. Was aspired to clarify, when linen has been prepared. For the age of the linen was got 610 - 740 year. Age assessment didn't correspond their expectations, which claimed that in the linen was image of death Jesus. For preserving of belief was admitted, that to C-14 radioactive constant basing age assessment has proved to be very inaccurate. Even inventor of the examination Willard F . Libby informed, that C-14-method is not useful to the purpose. However C-14-measurement is wanted renew. Why?

Measurements, which are based to radioactive material fragmentation give only values connected to material contents. On the contents are not informed time, but the amount of the radioactivity, which remains in specimen or examining material composition.

Defining of the time base always to various presumptions and assessments. Almost always can have several various measurement results and like this also age assessments can be made according to need. We can say that is wanted, that measurements can have values wanted by orderer, and on those basis they believe that age of that Torino shroud is about 2000 years.

Personally I believe that Torino shroud is big deception. And carbon measurements are big cheat. But if somebody wanna live in lies, so he lives!

[Donks]

Year 1969 Nobel-candidate, professor Melvin Cook
Evidence that he was a Nobel candidate? For what research?
Evidence that Helium does not escape at a rate close to production? (hint, it does)

[Cleon]

How does it feel to fail the Turing Test, Petri?

[SuperCoolGuy]

Petri,

If you really believe all of this, you need to seek professional help. I'd recommend a psychiatrist so you can get the medication you need.

You haven't stated one true fact in any of your delusional rantings. Your attempts to support your outlandish theories with lies and twisted facts is laughable and pathetic.


Okay folks.

Calling PetriFB "dumbass" or recommending professional help is not constructive. If PetriFB's aim is to merely slap a lot copied texts from other websites, let the forum adminstrators handle it.

PetriFB, if you want a discussion, pick a specific point and actually discuss it. Kudos to all for the Lake Titicaca and tectonic plates posts (Cleon, This Guy and Mojo come to mind), because it SPECIFICALLY addressed some points that PetriFB needs to think about and come back with. And seriously PetriFB, please think about it.

Unfortunately, this thread started with a bunch of Bible quotes and has devolved to various arguments over geological and anthropological specifics.

This is an appeal to PetriFB to reduce things down to one specific topic at a time. And an appeal to all not to attack one personally because of one's beliefs or approach to discussion.

Attack the words, not the person.

And PetriFB, if you are indeed merely spamming, which appears to be the case, consider:

1 Peter 3:15 -- "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

[Donks]

But if somebody wanna live in lies, so he lives!
Yes, you have shown that already.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

To the famous Torino shroud was made C-14-radiocarbon measurement in year 1988. Was aspired to clarify, when linen has been prepared. For the age of the linen was got 610 - 740 year. Age assessment didn't correspond their expectations, which claimed that in the linen was image of death Jesus. For preserving of belief was admitted, that to C-14 radioactive constant basing age assessment has proved to be very inaccurate. Even inventor of the examination Willard F . Libby informed, that C-14-method is not useful to the purpose. However C-14-measurement is wanted renew. Why?

Measurements, which are based to radioactive material fragmentation give only values connected to material contents. On the contents are not informed time, but the amount of the radioactivity, which remains in specimen or examining material composition.

Defining of the time base always to various presumptions and assessments. Almost always can have several various measurement results and like this also age assessments can be made according to need. We can say that is wanted, that measurements can have values wanted by orderer, and on those basis they believe that age of that Torino shroud is about 2000 years.

Personally I believe that Torino shroud is big deception. And carbon measurements are big cheat. But if somebody wanna live in lies, so he lives!


Did you even look at the link I provided to you?

If you want to discuss something, pick one item and discuss it. If not, then http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.php

[Cleon]

PetriFB, if you want a discussion, pick a specific point and actually discuss it. Kudos to all for the Lake Titicaca and tectonic plates posts (Cleon, This Guy and Mojo come to mind), because it SPECIFICALLY addressed some points that PetriFB needs to think about and come back with. And seriously PetriFB, please think about it.

Once we pointed out his errors, he simply kept going, cutting and pasting more "articles" from his website. There is no intent of discussion here. He has no interest in learning or discussing anything. He's 1inChrist without the "HELLFIRE" bit. Petri is a total waste of time.

[Donks]

Okay folks.

Calling PetriFB "dumbass" or recommending professional help is not constructive.
I beg to differ. It makes me fill marginally better. It is painfully obvious that he is not here to debate, he is here to post his texts and go away eventually.

[PetriFB]

Job 36:27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly

KJV text is accurate according to original language and that place is surprising!

In this verse is significant announcement, where there is also scientific perspective, in that: From water vapour forms clouds, from there it condenses for small drops of water. After which it drips down to the ground.

During time of Job has not been possible know scientifically as consequence of the cloud evaporation oncoming rain.

Also this information gave God to the Bible!

[RayG]

But how you explain fish fossils on hogh mountains?

For a teacher you're quite ignorant, and I'm very pleased you're not teaching my children.

Since you're quite convinced a global flood took place, please explain how Noah crammed all those animals, birds, and insects into the ark. I'm dying to know.

I heard Noah was later promoted to logistics officer of a Naval base.

RayG

[PetriFB]

Once we pointed out his errors, he simply kept going, cutting and pasting more "articles" from his website. There is no intent of discussion here. He has no interest in learning or discussing anything. He's 1inChrist without the "HELLFIRE" bit. Petri is a total waste of time.

I can say same that many post that I have posted shows errors of science and evolution theory ........ but you are still going with closed lamps ....

[Donks]

Job 36:27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly

KJV text is accurate according to original language and that place is surprising!

In this verse is significant announcement, where there is also scientific perspective, in that: From water vapour forms clouds, from there it condenses for small drops of water. After which it drips down to the ground.

During time of Job has not been possible know scientifically as consequence of the cloud evaporation oncoming rain.

Also this information gave God to the Bible!
Oh really?
23And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
So according to god Pi=3. Bad at math, is he? Go back to elementary school, should be? Talk like Yoda, do I?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Job 36:27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly

KJV text is accurate according to original language and that place is surprising!

In this verse is significant announcement, where there is also scientific perspective, in that: From water vapour forms clouds, from there it condenses for small drops of water. After which it drips down to the ground.

During time of Job has not been possible know scientifically as consequence of the cloud evaporation oncoming rain.

Also this information gave God to the Bible!

Yet, oddly enough, the Greeks had their own take on this; in 400 BCE no less:

...
As the air in those regions is constantly clear, and the country warm through the absence of cold winds, the sun in his passage across them acts upon them exactly as he wont to act elsewhere in summer, when his path is in the middle of heaven- that is, he attracts the water. After attracting it, he again repels it into the upper regions, where the winds lay hold of it, scatter it, and reduce it to a vapor, whence it naturally enough comes to pass that the winds which blow from this quarter- the south and south-west- are of all winds the most rainy. The sun, therefore, I regard as the sole cause of the phenomenon".
Herodotus: II 19-31 http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/sci/earlygrksc.htm


STREPSIADES But by the Earth! is our father, Zeus, the Olympian, not a god?
SOCRATES Zeus! what Zeus! Are you mad? There is no Zeus.
STREPSIADES What are you saying now? Who causes the rain to fall? Answer me that!
SOCRATES Why, these [clouds], and I will prove it. Have you ever seen it raining without clouds? Let Zeus then cause rain with a clear sky and without their presence!
STREPSIADES By Apollo! that is powerfully argued! For my own part, I always thought it was Zeus pissing into a sieve. But tell me, who is it makes the thunder, which I so much dread?
SOCRATES These [clouds], when they roll one over the other.
STREPSIADES But how can that be?
SOCRATES Being full of water, and forced to move along, they are of necessity [note the use of this word; is it a substitute for divine intervention?] precipitated in rain, being fully distended with moisture from the regions where they have been floating; hence they bump each other heavily and burst with great noise.

420 BCE Aristophanes

[Nyarlathotep]

I can say same that many post that I have posted shows errors of science and evolution theory ........ but you are still going with closed lamps ....


Nope, you have not shown the errors in science and evolution theory. you have pretty well shown that you have no idea what you are talking about when you are discussing it, though.

[PetriFB]

For a teacher you're quite ignorant, and I'm very pleased you're not teaching my children.

Since you're quite convinced a global flood took place, please explain how Noah crammed all those animals, birds, and insects into the ark. I'm dying to know.

I heard Noah was later promoted to logistics officer of a Naval base.

RayG

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

[PetriFB]

Nope, you have not shown the errors in science and evolution theory. you have pretty well shown that you have no idea what you are talking about when you are discussing it, though.

Check my post about radiocarbon timings and other things ....

[Donks]

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
I guess the meaning of "explain" escapes you.

[Cleon]

I can say same that many post that I have posted shows errors of science and evolution theory

Not with any shred of honesty, you can't.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

He asked for an explanation of how it worked, not a quote about it.

[PetriFB]

Oh really?
23And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
So according to god Pi=3. Bad at math, is he? Go back to elementary school, should be? Talk like Yoda, do I?

The aforementioned scripture states that the molten sea was “ten cubits from brim to brim” and “a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about;” thus, its diameter was 10 cubits, and its circumference 30 cubits. Dividing this circumference of 30 by a diameter of 10 gives a value of exactly 3. This is where the questions arise. It is commonly known that the value of π is approximately 3.14159265358979. In fact, this value has been proven so exactly, that its value is known to hundreds of thousands of digits.

Why then does the Bible appear to give the value of π to be 3? A diameter of 10 cubits should yield a circle having a circumference of more that 31.4 cubits--not 30 cubits. Is the Bible just rounding things off? Are the Biblical values just approximate and not really exact? If we see here that the scripture is not exact, what other passages also contain words that cannot be received with complete accuracy?

Let us examine the passage more carefully. First, the Bible says that the molten sea was “ten cubits from brim to brim.” This logically would be from the very edge of the rim on one side to the very farthest point on the opposite side. Second, the same verse declares that “a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.” What is the antecedent of “it?” Clearly it is the molten sea mentioned previously in the verse; therefore, the “line of 30 cubits” compasses the sea, or the liquid contained in the vessel. Taken exactly as described, the measurement appears to be the inner diameter of the basin--the distance around the sea.

When we realize that this molten sea has a thickness associated with it, the 10 cubits from brim to brim becomes the outer diameter, while the 30-cubit measurement describes the inner circumference. Since the diameter is obtained by simply dividing the circumference by (pi), the inner diameter can be calculated as 9.549 cubits. Additionally, the thickness of the vessel is found by taking half of the difference between the inner and outer diameter. Using the inner diameter just calculated and the given outer diameter of 10 cubits, the thickness is 0.225 or approximately 4 inches.

Furthermore, verse 5 of the same chapter adds validity to this conjecture. “And the thickness of it [the molten sea] was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies, and it received and held three thousand baths.” The outer brim was ornamented with lilies; thus, the outer rim had a jagged-like shape, and was not round like the inner rim. Henceforth, giving a dimension for the outside circumference would not have much meaning. Additionally, verse 5 indicates that the thickness of the vessel was “an handbreadth.” While the exact length of the Biblical handbreadth differs according to various scholars, it literally means the breadth of a hand, or approximately 3 to 4 inches--precisely the same thickness as previously calculated!

Consequently, while this appears to be a straightforward error, a careful examination of the Biblical wording along with some common sense confirms that the Word of God is, in fact, infallible.

http://www.learnthebible.org/molten_sea_value_of_pi.htm

[BenK]

No flood needed for the salt. The water that initially formed the lake was sea water. It's been diluted over the years from rain and river input, along with it's feed off.



So does that make it a homoepathic lake? :p

[Donks]

Consequently, while this appears to be a straightforward error, a careful examination of the Biblical wording along with some common sense confirms that the Word of God is, in fact, infallible.

http://www.learnthebible.org/molten_sea_value_of_pi.htm
"careful examination" otherwise known as handwaving.

[Ducky]

oh ffs. Another one?

Something tells me kathy called in reinforcements.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Carbon method is based on there, that plants suck from the air carbon dioxide and radioactive isotope, C14. From the plants it gets into body of herbivores and carnivores. After the death, its acquisition ceases and amount slowly reduces. What less radiocarbon is in specimen , it older it is in principle. In carbon-method is in any case its own problems. One example about that are bones, which dated 30,000 years old, and bones were on top of tree, which dated 16,000 years old. Another classical C14-problem examples are 11 specimens in Iraq in prehistoric village called Jarmo, and ages of those 11 specimens changed from the few year to the 6000 year. However, the analysis of the archeological proves indicated that village has been exist at the most 500 year, and after that it was perfectly deserted.

From the castle of Oxford taken stucco specimens gave age of 7 270 year; However, castle was built only 800 years ago. This indicate, that we cannot know absorption and fragmentation of carbon.

From Shefferville's iron mine in Canada was found for petrifaction tree for layer (which in every tables are based behind 600 million years) later it was said originated for younger period, 'only ' from period of 100 million year. Two independent carbon research gave its age however only about 4000 year.

Carbon method is unreliable method and we cannot trust to it!

You can trust such kind ot methods, which are false and making wrong timings ..lol

# CD010. Radiometric dating gives unreliable results. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD010.html

* CD011. Carbon dating gives inaccurate results. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011.html
o CD011.1. Variable C-14/C-12 ratio invalidates C-14 dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_1.html
o CD011.2. Vollosovitch and Dima mammoths yielded inconsistent C-14 dates. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_2.html
o CD011.3. Living snails were C-14 dated at 2,300 and 27,000 years old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_3.html
o CD011.4. A freshly killed seal was C-14 dated at 1,300 years old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html
o CD011.5. Triassic wood from Australia was dated at 33,000 years old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_5.html
o CD011.6. Ancient coal and oil are C-14 dated as only 50,000 years old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_6.html
* CD012. U-Th dating gives inaccurate results for modern volcanic rocks. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD012.html
* CD013. K-Ar dating gives inaccurate results for modern volcanic rocks. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013.html
o CD013.1. K-Ar dates of 1986 dacite from Mount St. Helens are very old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013_1.html
* CD014. Isochron dating gives unreliable results. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD014.html
o CD014.1. Isochron date of young Grand Canyon lava is excessively old. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD014_1.html
* CD015. Zircons retain too much helium for an old earth. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD015.html
* CD016. The U-Th-Pb method, properly corrected for neutron capture, gives recent dates. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD016.html

# CD020. Consistency of radiometric dating comes from selective reporting. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD020.html
# CD031. KBS Tuff shows the flaws of radiometric dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD031.html

[RayG]

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Quoting the Bible is no explanation. Assuming they DID enter the ark two-by-two, HOW did they all fit? Keep in mind he supposedly took EVERY beast, fowl, and creepeth thing and SOMEHOW crammed them into a wooden structure he built. HOW did he do that? Did he somehow pull a David Blaine and make some of them disappear? Alien technology? HOW? (in YOUR words, not mindless prattle from the Bible).

RayG

[PetriFB]

Not with any shred of honesty, you can't.

Fragmentation phases of the earth's radioactive material have been held as the most accurate evidences about billion years age of the globe. Resulting as the fragmentation of Helium- gas, however has not been found for the atmosphere. Helium-content of the atmosphere is indeed strong proof for the young age of the globe. The conflict between these two matters has been already over 50 year.

Year 1969 Nobel-candidate, professor Melvin Cook, examined many years amount of helium which was in the atmosphere and its accrual. On the basis of his research, he came to this result, that helium-4, which was in the atmosphere slight amount derives for the young age of the globe. Part for helium-4 of the atmosphere is born for breaking of active isotopes (eg. uranium). Deep in the depth of the earth been born slippery motion helium gets through a stone and a ground stratums and mixes finally to the group of other gases in the atmosphere.

In the earth being amount of radioactive materials fragmentation, which produce helium has been been able to assess accurately. However, there can't found enough amounts for the atmosphere. In the atmosphere being amonut of helium should be million times larger as is current, if globe would be 4.5 billion year old. Melvin Cook indeed asked in Nature-journal already in year 1957 for supporters of evolution: "where is as the result of the radioactive subjects fragmentation being born helium? ( "Where is the Earth´s Radiogenic Helium? " Nature, Vol. 179 No 213/1957 ja "Prehistory and Earth Models ", 1966).

Slight amount of helium has been significant scientific proof for the young age of the globe atmosphere.


Carbon method is based on there, that plants suck from the air carbon dioxide and radioactive isotope, C14. From the plants it gets into body of herbivores and carnivores. After the death, its acquisition ceases and amount slowly reduces. What less radiocarbon is in specimen , it older it is in principle. In carbon-method is in any case its own problems. One example about that are bones, which dated 30,000 years old, and bones were on top of tree, which dated 16,000 years old. Another classical C14-problem examples are 11 specimens in Irak in prehistoric village called Jarmo, and ages of those 11 specimens changed from the few year to the 6000 year. However, the analysis of the archeological proves indicated that village has been exist at the most 500 year, and after that it was perfectly deserted.

From the castle of Oxford taken stucco specimens gave age of 7 270 year; However, castle was built only 800 years ago. This indicate, that we cannot know absorption and fragmentation of carbon.

From Shefferville's iron mine in Canada was found for petrifaction tree for layer (which in every tables are based behind 600 million years) later it was said originated for younger period, 'only ' from period of 100 million year. Two independent carbon research gave its age however only about 4000 year.

Carbon method is unreliable method and we cannot trust to it!

What more measurements we examine so they are more unreliable. From the shellfish which are living in the sweet water was taken specimens and they gave in carbon measurement the age of the thousands years; Science, Vol. 141/1963 . 30 years old seal carcasses age were 4600 year in carbon measurments; Antartic Journal of the US. Just shot seal age was got 1300 year in carbon measurments. When from the same plot was taken different measurements, measurement difference were over 15000 years; New Zealand Journal of Geology and Geophysics, Vol 21/1978.

American professor the expert of Nile valley professor Brew told, that archeologists define age of archeological discovery often themselves according to their own view point.

Carbon is very unreliable and we cannot hold it as the fact, but only as estimation!


To the famous Torino shroud was made C-14-radiocarbon measurement in year 1988. Was aspired to clarify, when linen has been prepared. For the age of the linen was got 610 - 740 year. Age assessment didn't correspond their expectations, which claimed that in the linen was image of death Jesus. For preserving of belief was admitted, that to C-14 radioactive constant basing age assessment has proved to be very inaccurate. Even inventor of the examination Willard F . Libby informed, that C-14-method is not useful to the purpose. However C-14-measurement is wanted renew. Why?

Measurements, which are based to radioactive material fragmentation give only values connected to material contents. On the contents are not informed time, but the amount of the radioactivity, which remains in specimen or examining material composition.

Defining of the time base always to various presumptions and assessments. Almost always can have several various measurement results and like this also age assessments can be made according to need. We can say that is wanted, that measurements can have values wanted by orderer, and on those basis they believe that age of that Torino shroud is about 2000 years.

Personally I believe that Torino shroud is big deception. And carbon measurements are big cheat. But if somebody wanna live in lies, so he lives!

[PetriFB]

Quoting the Bible is no explanation. Assuming they DID enter the ark two-by-two, HOW did they all fit? Keep in mind he supposedly took EVERY beast, fowl, and creepeth thing and SOMEHOW crammed them into a wooden structure he built. HOW did he do that? Did he somehow pull a David Blaine and make some of them disappear? Alien technology? HOW? (in YOUR words, not mindless prattle from the Bible).

RayG

I believe what Bible says .....

Can you tell me accurate how the planets and earth has born ..... and tell all phases of them ....

[I less than three logic]

So does that make it a homoepathic lake? :p
I would guess so. Anyone know what diluted salt cures, hypertension maybe? :D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Fragmentation phases of the earth's radioactive material have been held as the most accurate evidences about billion years age of the globe. Resulting as the fragmentation of Helium- gas, however has not been found for the atmosphere. Helium-content of the atmosphere is indeed strong proof for the young age of the globe. The conflict between these two matters has been already over 50 year.
<snipped for brevity>

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1679531#post1679531

[Cleon]

Repitition of incorrect statements do not magically make them correct, Petri. Your ability to cut and paste is, indeed, admirable. Perhaps your time would be better spent learning about the stuff you're professing to know about.

[PetriFB]

Quoting the Bible is no explanation. Assuming they DID enter the ark two-by-two, HOW did they all fit? Keep in mind he supposedly took EVERY beast, fowl, and creepeth thing and SOMEHOW crammed them into a wooden structure he built. HOW did he do that? Did he somehow pull a David Blaine and make some of them disappear? Alien technology? HOW? (in YOUR words, not mindless prattle from the Bible).

RayG

By the way I haven't seen my own brains, but after all I'm thinking ....I haven't seen how my own heart pumps, but it is pumping .....

I can't explain to you how I can see with my eyes, but after all I can see.......


Can yoy explain accurate how accident could form life and man and woman and how accident succeed form to them genitals, that they can have children?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I believe what Bible says .....

Can you tell me accurate how the planets and earth has born ..... and tell all phases of them ....

There is ample material available for your reading enjoyment: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/13453/ref=br_bx_c_2_1/102-3994982-8890560

The key to which, is that these scientific theories have been given provisional agreement by the scientific community because they have made testable predicitions and have been independently verified.

Now, back to the ark... How did this work again?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

By the way I haven't seen my own brains, but after all I'm thinking ....I haven't seen how my own heart pumps, but it is pumping .....

I can't explain to you how I can see with my eyes, but after all I can see.......


Can yoy explain accurate how accident could form life and man and woman and how accident succeed form to them genitals, that they can have children?

Perhaps you need a brush up on how science works:

Elements of the scientific method ( hypothetico-deductive):

Induction -- Forming a hypothesis by drawing general conclusions from existing data.

Deduction -- Making specific predictions based on the hypothesis.

Observation -- Gathering data, driven by hypothesis that tell us what to look for in nature.

Verification -- Testing the predictions against further observations to confirm or falsify the initial hypothesis.

Through the scientific method, we may form the following generalizations:

Hypothesis -- A testable statement accounting for a set of observations.

Theory -- A well-supported and well-tested hypothesis or set of hypotheses.

Fact -- A conclusion confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer provisional agreement.

Through the scientific method, we aim for objectivity: basing conclusions on external validation. And we avoid mysticism: basing conclusions on personal insights that elude external validation.

Science leads us toward rationalism: basing conclusions on logic and evidence. And science helps us avoid dogmatism: basing conclusions on authority rather than logic and evidence.

It is important to recognize the fallibility of science and the scientific method. But within this fallibility lies its greatest strength: self-correction.

A scientific law is a description of a regularly repeating action that is open to rejection or confirmation.

Scientific progress is the cummulative growth of a system of knowledge over time, in which useful features are retained, and nonuseful features are abandoned, based on the rejection or confirmation of testable knowledge.

http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/jarrett/talks/LiU/sci_method_2.html

[Nyarlathotep]

Check my post about radiocarbon timings and other things ....


My mistake, you have also shown that you know squat about radiocarbon dating, too. I should have included that in my post, terribly sorry.

Radiocarbon dating, like any method if measring anything, will give bad results if done incorrectly. This is why results should be rechecked from time to time. That's as true for radio carbon dating as it is for reading the thermometer to tell you how warm it is outside. Finding a few examples where it gave wildly inaccurate results proves nothing. The clock in my kitchen is about 4 hours off right now (because the battery is dying), does that "prove" that clocks are utterly useless?

As for the carbon dating of The Shroud of Turin, any remaining contoversy over the age of the shroud has more to do with where they took the sample from than from any widespread disagreement over the accuracy of carbon dating. The controversy stems from where they took the sample they tested, whether they took an orignal piece of the shroud or a piece from a 14th century patch. The controversy surrounding that says more about the fact that believers will grasp at straws to discredit anything that contradicts their beleif than about any problems with radio-carbon dating.

[Nyarlathotep]

Can yoy explain accurate how accident could form life and man and woman and how accident succeed form to them genitals, that they can have children?

Yes, but not in a brief enough manner to make a post on a forum about it. I suggest you go to your local community college or whatever, and take a biology course, they can explain it in great detail.

[RayG]

I believe what Bible says .....

Then you should be able to tell me HOW all those critters were crammed into the ark. Please do so.

Can you tell me accurate how the planets and earth has born ..... and tell all phases of them ....

I'm asking you to logically explain an event that supposedly transpired and was reported in the Bible. If you're such an expert on the Bible, you should be able to explain how something that seems quite impossible was carried out by a glorified zoo keeper. Your question is not an answer and only deflects from what I've asked.

RayG

[Moochie]

My mistake, you have also shown that you know squat about radiocarbon dating, too. I should have included that in my post, terribly sorry.

Radiocarbon dating, like any method if measring anything, will give bad results if done incorrectly. This is why results should be rechecked from time to time. That's as true for radio carbon dating as it is for reading the thermometer to tell you how warm it is outside. Finding a few examples where it gave wildly inaccurate results proves nothing. The clock in my kitchen is about 4 hours off right now (because the battery is dying), does that "prove" that clocks are utterly useless?

As for the carbon dating of The Shroud of Turin, any remaining contoversy over the age of the shroud has more to do with where they took the sample from than from any widespread disagreement over the accuracy of carbon dating. The controversy stems from where they took the sample they tested, whether they took an orignal piece of the shroud or a piece from a 14th century patch. The controversy surrounding that says more about the fact that believers will grasp at straws to discredit anything that contradicts their beleif than about any problems with radio-carbon dating.


That's the chief problem with fundies, they're looking for anchorage in a fluid universe. Bespeaks a frightened human, IMO.

M.

[Meffy]

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

No, I'm sorry, that must be a lie. The Bible says so, in Genesis 7:1 through 7:3...

1 Then YHWH said to Noah, "Go, you and all your household into the ark, because you I have seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 From all the clean beasts take seven pairs, each with its mate, and from the beasts which are not clean take two, each with its mate. 3 Also from the birds of heaven, seven pairs, male and female, so there will be seed on the face of all the land. (emphasis mine)

>:-( I thought you claimed to believe what the Bible told you? For shame.

[I less than three logic]

By the way I haven't seen my own brains, but after all I'm thinking ....I haven't seen how my own hearts pumps, but it is pumping .....

I can't explain to you how I can see with my eyes, but after all I can see.......


Can yoy explain accurate how accident could form life and man and woman and how accident succeed form to them genitals, that they can have children?
Look, a classic argumentum ad ignorantiam. Just because you do not understand how it works, that does not make it false, nor does it make your alterative idea that “God did it” true. Science can explain much of this in great detail, all you need to do is take the time to study and learn it.

"It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham

[PetriFB]

There is ample material available for your reading enjoyment: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/13453/ref=br_bx_c_2_1/102-3994982-8890560

The key to which, is that these scientific theories have been given provisional agreement by the scientific community because they have made testable predicitions and have been independently verified.

Now, back to the ark... How did this work again?

So they are theories, not accurate information about those incidents ....

Theories and assumptions, hypothesis ...and so on ...

And back to the ark ; it is for me possible know only those things about Bible, which has been written to Bible.......

So I stick to there what the Bible has told ...

[Meffy]

And back to the ark ; it is for me possible know only those things about Bible, which has been written to Bible.......

So I stick to there what the Bible has told ...
Okay, we can stick with the Bible. In which of those two passages from Genesis is God lying?

[edit] For the moment, I'll assume for the sake of argument that one or the other is true.

[RayG]

By the way I haven't seen my own brains, but after all I'm thinking ....I haven't seen how my own heart pumps, but it is pumping .....

I'm pretty sure if multiple brains and hearts were crammed into my body they wouldn't fit properly.

I can't explain to you how I can see with my eyes, but after all I can see.......

Nor did I ask you. I did ask you how Noah was able to magically cram a pair of each and every living thing on earth into a boat. If you cannot offer a logical explanation then please do not trouble us anymore with your book of magical creatures, invisible gods, tall takes, and horse pucky.

RayG

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So they are theories, not accurate information about those incidents ....

Theories and assumptions, hypothesis ...and so on ...

And back to the ark ; it is for me possible know only those things about Bible, which has been written to Bible.......

So I stick to there what the Bible has told ...

Elements of the scientific method ( hypothetico-deductive):
Induction -- Forming a hypothesis by drawing general conclusions from existing data.
Deduction -- Making specific predictions based on the hypothesis.
Observation -- Gathering data, driven by hypothesis that tell us what to look for in nature.
Verification -- Testing the predictions against further observations to confirm or falsify the initial hypothesis.

Through the scientific method, we may form the following generalizations:
Hypothesis -- A testable statement accounting for a set of observations.
Theory -- A well-supported and well-tested hypothesis or set of hypotheses.
Fact -- A conclusion confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer provisional agreement.

Through the scientific method, we aim for objectivity: basing conclusions on external validation. And we avoid mysticism: basing conclusions on personal insights that elude external validation.

Science leads us toward rationalism: basing conclusions on logic and evidence. And science helps us avoid dogmatism: basing conclusions on authority rather than logic and evidence.

It is important to recognize the fallibility of science and the scientific method. But within this fallibility lies its greatest strength: self-correction.

A scientific law is a description of a regularly repeating action that is open to rejection or confirmation.

Scientific progress is the cummulative growth of a system of knowledge over time, in which useful features are retained, and nonuseful features are abandoned, based on the rejection or confirmation of testable knowledge.

[roger]

I wouldn't waste my time with this one. Evidence shows (http://www.google.com/search?hs=dXF&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=petrifb&btnG=Search) that he is a hit and run poster who doesn't answer questions and quotes extensively from his own web site (http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/petrienglish).

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I wouldn't waste my time with this one. Evidence shows (http://www.google.com/search?hs=dXF&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=petrifb&btnG=Search) that he is a hit and run poster who doesn't answer questions and quotes extensively from his own web site (http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/petrienglish).

Nope. Quit smoking this week and I'm going to take my frustration out on somebody, and since the 9/11 CT'ers aren't posting much...

[Ducky]

Nope. Quit smoking this week and I'm going to take my frustration out on somebody, and since the 9/11 CT'ers aren't posting much...

Arkan, you and I could have fun over on the LC forum pointing out the finer intricacies of copyright violation....

[SezMe]

I'm with roger...he has become boring.

[PetriFB]

In Finland time 11.30 pm .. good night ....

[Meffy]

They grow up and away so soon... *sniffle* Fly, little troll, fly awaaaay!

*listens for flapping of tiny, leathery wings*

[edit] Whoa, he did! How 'bout that?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Arkan, you and I could have fun over on the LC forum pointing out the finer intricacies of copyright violation....

I'm banned over there until June 24th, 2006.

[Meffy]

Opened up a can of paper towel tube on 'em, didja? O_:-}

[alfaniner]

The beginning of the universe. Also the scientists believe that the present universe can’t be eternal. Therefore it has been presented different theories such as the initial explosion theory and theories about that, how the galaxies, stars, solar system and globe have been born.



Life on earth can’t be eternal, because limited energy reserves of the sun are as an obstacle. It can’t have warmed eternally, otherwise its energy reserves would have failed. Without the sun the temperature of the air would be almost –273 degrees, in other words a condition, in which everything would be frozen and life wouldn’t be possible.



The initial explosion theory is clearly the most general theory about the beginning of the universe. According to it from one small point, of which volume was perhaps only the size of the point of a pin, has come the present universe: billions of galaxies, in which everyone there are a hundred billion stars, the sun which is warming, the globe and other planets, the mountains, seas and rivers, trees, fishes, mankind, mosquitoes, birds, giraffes… It is required a lot of belief, if it is thought that all these things have come from this kind of small space.



About the birth of galaxies and stars is discussed and problematic is, how gas suddenly would have started to condense to large objects. Many deny this theory. Problematic are also such things, that from which have been born the revolving and rotary motions, which can be observed everywhere in space, because the initial explosion couldn’t have caused them.

In the same way as a problem is to see birth of these heavenly bodies also nowadays. For if the galaxies and stars have been born during 10 – 20 billions years, so according to it should be born every year an average 10 new galaxies and 1000 billions new stars. Why the birth of them is not however observed?



In the birth of solar system are problematic for instance the composition of the planets and their composition compared with their own moons and the sun. For example the small inner planets are solid and are composed of heavy elements while in the sun there is only light elements such as hydrogen and helium.

In addition to this problematic are the atmospheres and motions of the planets and the moons, because they are not uniform.



The birth of life. When it is a question of the birth of life, so there is still an abyss between living and lifeless material. In laboratories it has not been able to create life, but only those materials, which are connected with it. In fact a dead body contains just right materials, but in it there is neither life.



The life birth experiments require an atmosphere free from oxygen, but the Precambrian rocks indicate that in them there has been oxygenated iron minerals, in other words then there has been free oxygen. It would be also strange that there wouldn’t have been oxygen, because at the same time there has been water and water vapour together with hydrogen. The composition of the initial atmosphere should have also been just opposite compared with the current; for then it was lacked oxygen and was hydrogen, while the current atmosphere is opposite of this.

One great problem of the life birth experiments is also, that the water surplus would have immediately dispersed combinations back to their structural elements and the forming of proteins wouldn’t have succeeded.



The remains of the Cambrian period and other fossils. According to an ordinary view evolution has gone from simple beginning to more and more complicated forms. However, for example the remains of the Cambrian period appear into layers suddenly, plentifully and fully prepared and developed without simpler forms, which preceded them.

The other intermediate fossils – with their half developed wings, hands, feet and senses – are missing too, even though there should be in the ground plenty of them. In the same way, observing of the similar intermediate fossils is difficult also nowadays.



Prokaryotes and eukaryotes are two cell types, between which it has not been found any intermediate forms from the ground and neither nowadays, but between them there is a steep border. The latter of them have a nucleus and they are about 1000 times larger than prokaryotes.



Multicellulars. When it is a question of multicellulars and their evolution, so there is not clear proofs that they would have come from monocellurars. Their birth is still an enigma.



The evolution of the plants. The plants appear into the layers suddenly and fully prepared, and it is difficult to find any preceding simpler evolution phases from the layers.



Moving from sea onto land is a problem, because how the fishes could breathe, eat and reproduce on dry land.



From small to big. How it was possible that organism, of which size was like the size of a bacterium or a fly, could change into elephant or other big animals?



Complicated organs such as breathing, circulation, digestive system and reproductive organs are problematic, if they were not ready immediately. As a consequence would have been immediately or quite soon becoming extinct.

On the other hand, the fossils, which have been found from the ground, are not half- but fully developed.



Mutations. When it has been considered, what matters take evolution forward, generally the mutations and natural selection has been mentioned as the most important factors.

The mutation experiments, which have been made millions and millions of times for example with banana fly, have however indicated that any new species has not been born. Banana fly has not changed for example into wasp, worm or butterfly, but in the experiments has been observed certain borders, which have been impossible to cross.



Natural selection has been mentioned as the second factor, which takes evolution forward. It can’t however create anything new, but it selects only from that, which is old and ready. In addition to this, selection carried out by man, in other words refining, has indicated that in it there are certain borders, which have been impossible to cross.



Archaeopteryx is used as one of the best proofs of evolution and as the intermediate form between lizards and birds. However, other birds have been found from “millions of years older” layers than it, and therefore it can’t be the progenitor of them and neither any intermediate form.



The evolution series of horse is not from the same overlapping layers, but it has been collected even from different continents. Anything doesn’t prove that they are in some descending relationship with each other. Remains of the current horse have been found from older layers than the bones of Eohippus, in other words on grounds of this Eohippus can't be at least the progenitor of the current horse.



Peppered moths and bacteria, which have been used as convincing arguments of evolution, are as a matter of fact all the time the same species. For example in peppered moths there is difference only in number of dark and light modifications, but the species is all the time the same – such as there are long and short, black and white people. The bacteria are neither changing into other species, but there is only a question of bacteria with better resisting power, and increasing of their populations.



Rudiments are one of those matters, which may have been used as a important proof of evolution, even though nowadays it has been noted that almost each of them have their own important task. On the other hand the rudiments are not any proof of evolution, but of regression. Real evolution is only that, if new and useful organs were born.



The evolution of embryo and similar early stages don’t necessarily be any proof of evolution. A surprise would rather be, if all the organisms had quite different early stages. On the other hand the seeds of plants can resemble mostly each other, but in any case from them becomes quite different plants.



Similar structure (in feet, hands) is a proof of it, that the animals have been made for the similar world; it is not necessarily a proof of evolution. On the other hand a bat wouldn’t be a bat and a horse wouldn’t be a horse, if their limbs were different. What kind of the structure of animals then should be, and what benefit of them then would be, if they were quite different?



Similarity of blood is a matter, which has been used as a proof of evolution. However according to it whale and tiger should be close relatives, such as also man and rat.



Australopithecus, which is regarded as the progenitor of man, is on grounds of its skull form and also on grounds of its size clearly apish. The volume of its brains (400 cm3) is the same as of the current chimpanzees and gorillas. Many researchers deny its position as the progenitor of man.



The Man of Java was regarded for many decades as the most important find on this area. However the found parts of it - a piece of a skull, 3 teeth and a left femur - were situated from each other at its best at a distance of 15 metres, and still the sixth part, in other words the part of a mandible, was found from the other side of the island at a distance of about 40 kilometres from the other parts. In the same way from the area of the first find place was found still about 27 relics of other different animals.

In addition to this Eugene Dubois, who made the finds, said himself many years later that that the piece of the skull was indeed a skull of a Gibbon. In the same way he said, that from the same layers has been found also bones, which clearly belonged to today's man.



Pildtown man, which for a long time was regarded as the second important find just after the Man of Java, and on whom was written over 500 dissertations, was a fake.



The slight evidence. When it is a question of the evidence of man’s evolution, it has been said, that there are researchers more than fossils, and that the whole evidence would go in one coffin and space would remain still also over it.



Today's people in older layers. One remarkable point is that remains of today’s people have been found several times from older layers than their fossilised forefathers – in other words they must have been at least as old as these "old forefathers".

For example Lady Guadeloupe and Calaveras-skull are examples of this. They resemble perfectly remains of today’s man, but they were found from layers, of which age was “25-28 million years”, in other words they should have been many times older than their fossilised forefathers.



The use of language is not a proof of evolution, but of regression. Every known primitive tribe has its own grammar and the vocabulary of thousands of words.



The interpretation value of red shift has been used to support the present view on old age of the universe. However, it is significant, that as value of drawing away was regarded before only about tenth part of the current value. This would mean, that the universe would then have been ten times younger than the current supposed age.



The small amount of space dust for instance on moon and on earth proves that they can’t be tremendously old. If this nickel-ferrous dust would have come onto moon and onto earth about for 5 billion years, we should see it on their surfaces about 50-200 meters ( 54-218 yards). In fact there is it for example on moon only about a few millimetres, which proves against long periods.



Comets. It is known about comets that the largest part of them evaporates away about in 10,000 years. On the other hand that, that there is still motion of comets and that there is not clear proofs of the birth of new comets, indicates, that they in any way can’t be 5 billion years old.



The earth’ s magnetic field loses half of its strength at intervals of about 1400 years. If the weakening of the field has continued as similar for 50,000 years, the strength of the field would have then been formerly like of a white dwarf star.



The contraction speed of the sun is according to some examinations about 0,1 % per century, in other words 38 metres per day. This would have made life impossible already less than million years ago.



Drawing away of the moon. It has been noticed that the moon escapes away from the earth continually about 4,5 centimetres (1.7 inches) every year. According to these calculations the moon should have even been fastened to the earth about 1,4 billion years ago.



The pressure of oil in oil wells indicates that they have at the most age of 10,000 years.



The accumulation of sediments onto the river deltas, the flow of minerals into seas are some ways to measure time. These observations of practise don’t indicate any age of billions of years, but many times smaller readings, in other words from a few hundred years to some millions of years.



The history of the mankind. The earliest notes about the history of the mankind reach only about 5000 years backwards in time. In addition to this the archaeological finds indicate that such things as using of metals, ceramics, buildings, ability to write and farming have all come up simultaneously into the world only some thousands years ago.



Increase in population. If there were people already 16,000 years ago, so according to the present increase in population there should be on earth now about 1 099 510,000 000 residents, which is almost 200 times larger than the current population. According to the same increase in population there should have been on the globe 4000 years ago about 5 million residents, which seems to be quite a right estimate.



The radioactive measurements are based on suppositions, which can’t be proved. The best method is carbon-14 method (organic specimens), but in it the earth’s magnetic field can distort timings so that they are older than in fact are.

The results with these methods have changed strongly so that from stones have been measured very different contents, in other words assumed ages (For example, when it has been examined age of Grand Canyon’s strata, was got "to the young" basalt rock of the uppermost strata 270 million years more than "thousands of million years old" stone stratum, which was on the bottom of the canyon.) The contents of stones don’t necessarily be in any connection with their real age.



The strata of the earth. According to the evolution view the strata of the earth have been born during millions of years. However, the observations of practise indicate that they have been born quickly, because…



- Inside from the earth’s strata are found long trunk- and other fossils, which can go through “millions of years old” strata. Certainly these trees are not millions of years old, but the ground masses (as a consequence of the Flood?) have been formed around them very quickly, perhaps only in a few days.



- In connection with St Helen’s volcano eruption in 1980 it happened, that it was formed a series of overlapping strata, of which thickness was at its best almost two hundred metres, and only during a few weeks. To this everything didn’t so need millions of years, but only a few days.



- Lacking of erosion between the strata indicates that they have formed over each other quite in a very short time and not during millions of years.



- One clear proof of fast stratification of the strata are the fossils in them. They can't be born in any other way except by being buried very quickly, because otherwise the plants and the animals would have putrefied quickly or other animals would have eaten them. The Flood mentioned in the Bible can certainly best explain this kind of being buried, because in normal conditions they are not born. Generally the researchers admit that the birth of fossils and strata can be explained best by unusual catastrophes in nature.



- One indication of that, that the strata can’t be millions of years old, are the finds made from them. So for example from the very oldest Precambrian stratum has been found 4000 years old tree and pollen. On the other hand things and skulls belonged to man has been found from “300 million years old” coal seams, in other words at time, which had to be long before the dinosaurs. In the same way it has been found human skeletons from cretaceous sediments and foot prints from “250 million years old” strata from several separate areas. If these strata really are so old, so man must have lived then, but hardly any scientist believes in this kind of possibility.

Also it has been found remains of trilobites under a child's footprint and under a sandal. These animals is believed to have died already long before the dinosaurs.



The geological chart is one method in definition of age. It is however good to notice that from any part of the world has not been found any perfect stratigraphic sequence, but only parts of it. For example from Grand Canyon has been found only five of the twelve most important strata.

The strata are also in incorrect order so that many "old" strata are over of "younger" (the Alps, Pakistan, Grand Canyon), even though their should be just on the contrary.

It is also good to notice that this chart has been formed originally on an area, which covers only small part of the globe, and it has been made during at the time when people didn’t know much about fossils, which are inside of the ground.



The periods of millions of years or ecological compartments? When it has been presented that the fossils, which have been found from the ground, testify of evolution from sea onto land and the order of evolution (1. trilobites and other organisms, of which many lived on silt bottoms of seas, 2. fishes, 3. frog animals, 4. reptiles, 5. birds and mammals), so they testify rather of ecological compartments, not of that, that they would have lived in different time.

For nowadays too there are sea-, marsh-, highlands-, mountain- and other corresponding zones, in which live different animals. It would rather be a surprise, if the trilobites and other animals of the sea-bed had lived on dry land or in the mountains. It would also be a surprise, if the bears, cows and other mammals had lived on the sea-beds – it certainly wouldn’t have succeeded. In other words these animals can have lived simultaneously, but only in different zones. The trilobites and other animals of the sea-bed would be buried also nowadays in the lowest layers, while the frog animals, reptiles, mammals and birds would be left above them. Their find places are not a proof of evolution or that they would have lived in different time on earth, but only a proof of ecological compartments.



The living fossils indicate how people can be wrong with tens of millions of years.

Quoting possibly the longest post ever that says absolutely nothing of value.

So, if you copy and paste (at length!!!) stuff from your own website, does this put you in breach of Rule 4?

How long until this dodo gets suspended?

[Moochie]

Speaking of trilobites... I said to the missus just the other day, "It would rather be a surprise, if the trilobites and other animals of the sea-bed had lived on dry land or in the mountains."

The missus pointed me at the lawnmower.

M.

[Meffy]

The missus pointed me at the lawnmower.
Hard, but it could be worse. Could be the other way 'round.

[Kiwiwriter]

...This Finnish fella comes right out of the Big Book.

I like that line about not knowing or seeing hearts and brains working. He's welcome to come down to the Emergency Room at University Hospital on a Saturday night, when they bring in victims of car crashes and heart attacks, and hang out in the O.R. He'll see hearts, brains, lungs, and spleens at work and being repaired.

The value of religion to me is that it should, in theory, teach people moral values through allegory and philosophy. Unfortunately, too often, it's used to promote ignorance, bigotry, war, and corruption. We've seen too many examples of all of these, all through human history.

My pal Anne, an archeologist who has studied the ancient cultures of the Bible and the time period thereof, commented acidly on these kind of folks, "That's what happens when you insist on going around believing in God."

And that's all I have to say about that.

[cbish]

It's definitly time for kittens and recipes. I'll start:

1 lb of 16-20 count prawns. Deveined and butterflied.
marinate prawns in fresh squeezed OJ and a slug or two of Chardonay
To one package of soften goat cheese, add Herbs de Provence.
Stuff goat cheese mixture into butterflied portion of shrimp and wrap in a slice of prosciutto.
Brown quickly with a little EVOO in a skillet.
Transfer to a baking dish and bake for about 15 minutes at 350 F.

Yummy!

[Meffy]

If one were looking for a godlike super alien spirit to channel, one could do a lot worse than naming it EVOO. It'd be fun seeing who figured it out and who didn't.

[Dr Adequate]

PetriBF --- Reading through your post, I'm astonished at how much of it is simply lies. Not misunderstandings, not misinterpretations, just flat untruths.

Or course, I know that they are not your lies, because like most your posts don't contain anything original. It's the same old nonsense I've read a million times --- you're just repeating lies which you've heard other people tell.

But this does not absolve you from guilt, because it was incumbent upon you to find out if you were speaking the truth before you passed these lies on to others.

This is laziness and credulity, then, rather than deliberate dishonesty. BUT IT IS STILL "BEARING FALSE WITNESS".

Now, please go away and try to find out if anything on your website is true.

[cbish]

If one were looking for a godlike super alien spirit to channel, one could do a lot worse than naming it EVOO. It'd be fun seeing who figured it out and who didn't.LOL
Okay, you just made me spit Pepsi out my nose!
Evoo would be the god of what? How about the god of culinary virtue. Or the god of grease. god of viscous liquid? god of lubrication?

[Beady]

By the way I haven't seen my own brains, but after all I'm thinking ....

Hold me back! Someone take pity on me and don't let me say it! It's just too easy ! :hit:

[This Guy]

...Can yoy explain accurate how accident could form life and man and woman and how accident succeed form to them genitals, that they can have children?

Well, I was gonna drop out of this, since it appears your either not looking at, or are ignoring information being offered. You aren't offering a counter point, or argument against the facts being presented, your ignoring them.

BUT! I can't help but respond to this!

So, your saying God made me stick out, and my potential mate have a hole? Now, if I were an all knowing God, I would have foreseen that this arrangement is not only messy and inconvenient, but it also allows for (promotes?) rapes and unwanted pregnancies.

I think I would have come up with a method that would be much more convenient, and something that required mutual consent for procreation. Something that didn't feel quite so good, so people would only do it for procreation, not for fun, which I would have known would cause much sin and decadence in the world.

Of course, the current system works exactly like it does in the animal kingdom for other life forms with a body build similar to ours (and in similar ways for many other body styles). Almost as if we evolved from some lower animal form, and that function hasn't evolved much. Even to the detail that we desire to perform the act, because it feels good, and that in turn causes us to promote our species. Just like the lower animals....

Things that make you go hmmmm......

[Meffy]

Evoo would be the god of what? How about the god of culinary virtue. Or the god of grease. god of viscous liquid? god of lubrication?
Maybe Evoo is the god of Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers, aka Tom and Ray Magliozzi of the "Car Talk" radio show, and of their weekly (when they've got one) Puzzler.

P.S.: This Guy, we like to think of ourselves not as "lower" but "closer to the ground."

[This Guy]

Maybe Evoo is the god of Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers, aka Tom and Ray Magliozzi of the "Car Talk" radio show, and of their weekly (when they've got one) Puzzler.

P.S.: This Guy, we like to think of ourselves not as "lower" but "closer to the ground."

Had to look up Evoo. lol

And sorry. Didn't mean to offend ;)

[Meffy]

:-D

Ah, how much better this thread has become. Aimless, it's so, but vastly improved.

[Whydoe]

Some people have a few friends over on their birthday. You know, have a little party; talk about interesting things that interest you and your friends. Some people aren't so lucky.

[AWPrime]

LOL
Okay, you just made me spit Pepsi out my nose!
Evoo would be the god of what? How about the god of culinary virtue. Or the god of grease. god of viscous liquid? god of lubrication?

God of Adequacy.

[Dr Adequate]

There can only be one!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If one were looking for a godlike super alien spirit to channel, one could do a lot worse than naming it EVOO. It'd be fun seeing who figured it out and who didn't.

I'm guessing that the masses would only be ~30 minutes long?

[Mojo]

Today its salt content is lower because of glacier and rainfall.....

But how you explain fish fossils on hogh mountains?Plate tectonics. This had been pointed out to you before you made this post (and probably since, as another three pages seem to have appeared since I went down the Pub).

Oh, and by the way, you were claiming that there is no rainfall (or glaciers) flowing into the lake...

[Mojo]

There are differences between those who believe God and who don't believe..

I enlight this matter:

There is hammers, saw, nails, bricks and many kind of buliding materials ....... belivers believe that there must somebody who makes a plan how to build house and someones who must build the house .....

Other group is those who don't believe that there is needed any plans and workers, but they believe that hammers, saws and nails by itself with period of millions years can make a house ........lolDonks is right: this is beginning to sound like Kumar.

[Meffy]

I'm guessing that the masses would only be ~30 minutes long?
??? Just felt a breeze in my headfur -- must've been that one going over my head. :-} Elucidate, please, and I'll dutifully "d'oh."

[Genesius]

If one were looking for a godlike super alien spirit to channel, one could do a lot worse than naming it EVOO. It'd be fun seeing who figured it out and who didn't.

Possibly, could his cosmic adversaries be DEVO, the Gods of De-evolution?

:D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

??? Just felt a breeze in my headfur -- must've been that one going over my head. :-} Elucidate, please, and I'll dutifully "d'oh."

Sorry, thought chain went such:

EVOO -> Extra Virgin Olive Oil -> Rachael Ray -> 30 Minute Meals

[slingblade]

EVOO -> Extra Virgin Olive Oil ...

Oh no. Popeye is God, and Swee' Pea is Jebus?

"I yam what I yam."

Oh, crap. Good thing I like spinach.

[thaiboxerken]

Plate tectonics. This had been pointed out to you before you made this post (and probably since, as another three pages seem to have appeared since I went down the Pub).

Oh, and by the way, you were claiming that there is no rainfall (or glaciers) flowing into the lake...

This shows that creationism is not only absurd on biological issues, but geographical issues as well. It's also stupid in astronomical fields.

[Meffy]

@Genesius: Long as it's not Disney's new, improved Devo 2.0. =>_<=

@Arkan: Ohhhh! D'oh. My mate watches Food Channel and would've got that one...

[PetriFB]

...This Finnish fella comes right out of the Big Book.

I like that line about not knowing or seeing hearts and brains working. He's welcome to come down to the Emergency Room at University Hospital on a Saturday night, when they bring in victims of car crashes and heart attacks, and hang out in the O.R. He'll see hearts, brains, lungs, and spleens at work and being repaired.

The value of religion to me is that it should, in theory, teach people moral values through allegory and philosophy. Unfortunately, too often, it's used to promote ignorance, bigotry, war, and corruption. We've seen too many examples of all of these, all through human history.

My pal Anne, an archeologist who has studied the ancient cultures of the Bible and the time period thereof, commented acidly on these kind of folks, "That's what happens when you insist on going around believing in God."

And that's all I have to say about that.


I agree that religions have cause many wars ...... and I don't like religions...

Jesus Christ didn't found any religion, but He came that we would get through faith close relationship with His Father.......

[PetriFB]

According to those who believe to evolution theory:

All plants and animals are result of slow development. By accident from dead material born initial cell happened copying faults, thanks to cell database grew and million years later diversified. Stronger cells ate weak cells and like this better survived to increase and to diversify. In some phase was born original form of plants, after every fern phases formed various increase alternatives and finally also basic form of apple and so on. At the same time by accident developed other kind of living organisms. For those developed by way of accident and mutations senses and to moving necessary limbs. In some phase they noticed by accident for colourful changed blossom of plants and knew by accident tempting fragrance, which plants spread. Developed ecological system of apple plant and insects co-operation.

Difficulty to evolution is, that researchers have not found any intermediate form for indication about development of millions different plants and species of animals. Known fact is, that assumed development events are among other things against following law of nature: law of thermodynamics, law from the birth of life and law from information (increasing of information by itself). Cell activity regulating Dna-program does not accept addition of information, which comes from outside, which is to evolution theory also large difficulty. It, that over 99% from observed mutations are harmfuls, and yet any improving competitiveness individual mutation have not found. Evolution believers says that this shouldn't shake to believe to evolution. Also not it, that nature selection don't improve kinds, but selection is directed only already existing kinds.

Despite from all conflicts they wanna believe, that accident, mutations and nature selection are efficient elemental force, which had been ability and skill bring about this beautiful world, in which we live. Fossils, all living marks and natural phenomenons would come to explain thus, that they support evolution theory and this belief would come to move also all possible ways to next generations.

So we see how some people believe to deception and things which are impossible ......

But everybody can choose his way and he is in charge of about his life ... and one day he has to face his Creator ...

[LarsLuthor]

PetriFB
every once in awhile...I see/read a post from such a level of moronic idiocy that I cannot stop myself from screaming out and or attacking but I will try my hardest to refrain from asking this idiot to explain why, with all the years and all the fictional characters conjured up in the bible, why there is not a single record of anyone, anything, any event, recorded in STONE in any of the hundreds of thousands of hieroglyphs put down by every Pharoah, King of egypt's scribes?? Go ahead PetriFB show me one wall, one tomb, one vase, one anything that tells the story of anything that was supposed to have happened in that book of fairytales you call the bible??? There is no mention of Moses' plagues on the pharoah...no exodus of his people..nothing, no mention, yet there are extensive stories in the various hieroglyphs describing all kinds of activities of daily life, historical events in and all around egypt. Events were chiseled in stone or recorded on parchemnt about the mundane to the sublimest of events. There is even the entire story of a set of thieves caught robbing a king's tomb, their trial and punishment, yet not one mention of a single event, a person, anything from all those chapters of the bible about years and years of all kinds of stories in egypt. Hell the biggest lie of all is this wild assed story of a Joseph, son of this or that begated jacob, or aron or whoever winding up being KING of egypt, pharoah of all!!!! But where is the evidence in stone?? Hell these so called scholars of the bible cannot even agree when anything actually occured.. if you use one date then all the rest of the fairy tale goes out the window.. so they "adjust" everything to make it fit. Yet the hieroglyphs flow from one king to the next, year after year... with very little actually being left out! But you have some all powerful God that can't seem to get anyone over 3000 years to write anything down when it happened, saved a single anything from anything supposed to have occured. Yet not one story, not one second hand reference to anything claimed in that stupid fairytale bible! nothing...and I am only talking about Egypt and the hieroglyphs...you still have all the other surrounding countries OF THAT TIME that also have no records of anything claimed to have happened in the bible. And it does not count to use historical records from times 600 years AFTER all this was supposed to happen.. which is what you will drag out to try and prove he and it existed and is real and factual! I am talking about the exact supposed place and time your own damned book says it all was happening!!
Here I have another goody for you PetriFB.. this will toast your buns...
Do you all know what the favorite past time of desert tribesman, that lived at this time of the bible, was??? Ready, the favorite social thing to do everyday, in the evening, whenever there was nothing else to do was to light up and smoke Hashhish!!!! Hash was a kind of currency during this time in the world, but the bible conveniently leaves out any mention of this cultural phenom, that they were all stoned because they were smoking hash all the time!!!! Now just imagine the tales, the yarns these stoned arabs, hittites, israelites etc could spin sitting under the stars whacked on hash?? every day, every nite!!! the entire bible, every story in it is based on yarns spun by stoned out desert nomads!!! Skip the fictitious Da Vinci Code...make this into a movie and see how the christians, catholics etc go ballistic from fear! I can hear the corner stones of your religion and god and bible.... cracking and crumbling....so pull up a chair, break off a little piece and light up...might as well get stoned while your reality burns down around you!!! Now that is a movie I would pay for everyone to see!!!! oh yeah!!!
So please.. explain why almost 2500 years of Egyptian scribes, scribes by the thousands by the way, failed to record from the most remote to most notorious events concerning anything described in the bible as having happened? Yet events like comets are recorded, yet nothing about plagues of locusts, first born sons dying thru out the country or the RED SEA parting in half. Now that is an event they could have had quite the time with telling. yet nada, nothing...BECAUSE NONE OF IT EVER HAPPENED that's why!!
I am now done but please do not believe me. I do not want you to believe me, instead I want you to go and learn how to read hieroglyphics, research the historical records for yourself, see with thine own eyes!! search wide and deep, you will become frantic as you read and learn there is nothing, when you read your bible and then read the actual reports, laid down at the very time it happened unlike the bible and you find nothing, no mention of even a single person claimed in the bible! no references to the events claimed by moses, or jacob or joseph or anyone from over half the bible!! of events that spanned 2500 years!!! please do not believe me, go research for yourself show me the pillars with the hieroglyphs proclaiming HIS name???? go ahead and copy and paste it here for me to read with my own eyes. I can read over 400 plus hieroglyphic characters from the middle kingdom period!! I will be waiting for your proof...NOT!!

[PetriFB]

The most important proofs of Darwin from evolution were eg. Finches of Galapagos-islands, whose beak form had changed with years. Development of those birds has now followed over 100 year. In research has been stated, that as dry period their beaks thicken and its size grows. As moist period beaks return as before, because soft food is so plenty of that dry seeds do not need to use. From this returning of beak never talk anything, because it cancels beliefs of evolution. Nobody tell also it that finches have remain as finches. Of these is not developed new bird kinds.


And for example is taken research for support of evolution from butterflies (Biston betularius), which live in England. Dark individuals of kind can be seen against light trunks in so way, that birds found them and ate. Light individuals were preserved to continue to akin. When trunks came dark as a result of air's pollutants was destiny of light individuals that bird ate them and by that way now dark individuals increased.


Science magazine The Scientist 3 published from the beginning of year- 99 an article, in which was exposed, that for supporting of evolution is continually set up props. Because those mentioned butterflies don't naturally rest on the trunks (they move in the branches) and therefore butterflies are not visible to birds, researchers glued those butterflies to the trunks. Then they photographed these butterflies, for proof that light butterfly can be seen better against dark trunk and dark ones are in safety because of their protective colouring. For support of evolution theory Theories is often built faked stages and faked proofs. Makers of textbooks (supporting evolution) don't tell, that butterflies remain as butterfly, even though colour sometimes changes. Is used " only expression "evolution". Those proofs are not proofs developing of kind to another kind (macro-evolution) but inside of kind happening variation (micro-evolution).

This kind of deception and lie don't give reliable picture about evolution science, but shows to us that it is ready to make fake, that it can hold on to false beliefs... and makes about it science!

Planned refining work

As proof of evolution Darwin used also refining of domestic animals. Was claimed, that because man can refine from same basic form various races and conditions of the nature can change form of finches beak, and then developing of kind during hundred million years for another kind is not to accident and nature selection difficult challenge.

According to evolution microevolution (changing of butterfly colour for other) proves on behalf of macroevolution, in other words developing of kind for another kind (example developing of cloven-hoofed animal for whale. Because of this supporters of evolution don't want to speak about two different evolutions. Both prove same according to evolutionist.

Dog races is methodically refined over thousands years. Proofs from this have been found in connection with archaeological discoveries. For example nowadays popular Afghan hound is described in Egyptian papyrus scroll, which has timed for years 4000-3000 BC. But in dogs refining comes very well into view that dogs in refining remain as the dogs. New species of animal has not been create. In the question is microevolution variation, where kind remains as its own kind.

Scientific facts indicate however to us, that in animal refining even though it has practised over 4000 year has not succeeded to make new species of animal. Horse has remain to be as horse and dog as dog. Results of the animal refining function as strong proof against evolution theory. On the basis of experience during millenniums we can hold as sure matter it that kind can't by way of hard effort change for another kind. In refining of the animals (on the micro-evolution), is not anything to do with macro evolution (changing of kind for another kind).

So evolutionists live in a big lie ..........

[Kopji]

Has he mentioned the perfection of bananas yet?

[Gravy]

...By the way my task is not convert anybody, but tell about Him, who can convert .....
PetriFB, do you really think there is anyone here who has not heard of this "Him" you speak of? I have heard of "Him" all my life. I have also studied the Bible. If "He" wanted to "convert" me from atheism, why has "He" not done so? What is "He" waiting for?

[Gravy]

Has he mentioned the perfection of bananas yet?
No need to mention it when you can display it by going perfectly bananas.

[Diabolos]

PetriFB,

Please refer to this official God F.A.Q. - it will answer everything you need to know:

Official God FAQ (http://www.400monkeys.com/God/)

[Beady]

I'm bored. I've seen all this before. Be seein' most of you in other threads. Bye.

[Mojo]

Science magazine The Scientist 3 published from the beginning of year- 99 an article, in which was exposed, that for supporting of evolution is continually set up props. Because those mentioned butterflies don't naturally rest on the trunks (they move in the branches) and therefore butterflies are not visible to birds, researchers glued those butterflies to the trunks. Then they photographed these butterflies, for proof that light butterfly can be seen better against dark trunk and dark ones are in safety because of their protective colouring. For support of evolution theory Theories is often built faked stages and faked proofs. Makers of textbooks (supporting evolution) don't tell, that butterflies remain as butterfly, even though colour sometimes changes. Is used " only expression "evolution". Those proofs are not proofs developing of kind to another kind (macro-evolution) but inside of kind happening variation (micro-evolution).

This kind of deception and lie don't give reliable picture about evolution science, but shows to us that it is ready to make fake, that it can hold on to false beliefs... and makes about it science! The textbook photograph was set up as an illustration. It was not part of the research. You might equally argue that because Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of the last supper is obviously posed (Leonardo was not a witness to the actual event) the Gospels are untrue. For more information about the moths, see here (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html).

[Mojo]

So evolutionists live in a big lie ..........Locusts do not go upon all fours (they have six feet, not four, in case you weren't aware of this, or are taking your "facts" from Leviticus 11:20-23). So believers in the Bible live in a big lie (in addition to the ones you have posted in this thread..........).

[PetriFB]

Fable tells about the hare, which found big cabbage. When hare started to eat it, under the cabbage heard sound of the tortoise: "Cabbage belongs to me". In order to get cabbage for itself, hare proposed competition. It, which runs faster to field end and back, win the cabbage. Nimble-footed hare surprised, when slow tortoise agreed running race. Tortoise required however, that competition must be following morning. Hare agreed to this. In the morning observant magpie gave competitors starting signal, hare scampered to run. Surprise was large when on the end of field hare saw that tortoise was already there. "Improve your speed, if your intention is win": said tortoise. And so hare ran its best possible speed back, but when hare came to goal tortoise was already there. Hare was confused and he gave up the cabbage to tortoise and left as bitter from its loss on his way. In the evening tortoise couple enjoyed cabbage meal and laughed their cunning an it, how easily can cheat those, who look only at exterior. In both end of field had been different tortoise.

Is similar likeness kinship?

Evolution teaches very same way as the fable, that similar likeness is proof from the common origin kinship of kinds. In the fable tortoise was of course similar kind, but they faked there, that there was two tortoises, although there was only one. According to this belief kinds, which remind from their external appearance each others, are in development line their close relatives in other words they have developed from the same pre- form. On the basis of this idea German, enthusiastic supporter of Darwin, Ernst Haeckel planned a pedigree to people, which root was plasm and its highest branch was the man. Was lived year 1866. Haeckel was few year previously copied fetus pictures from known researchers (made byBischoff1845 and Ecker1851-59) and faked them thus, that he got form of fetus to agree to his idea of evolution. These faked fetus designs live still in current textbooks even though Haeckel was forced to go court and was condemned from his fakes . Haeckel drew his first pedigree merely on the basis of t imagination. There apes and gorillas, which on behalf of their external appearance look like people; those apes and gorilals were in drawing with nearby branches. Haeckel developed in his imagination life plasm "Monera", which was on the root of pedigree as initiator of the life. Enthusiastic englishman and Darwinist Thomas Huxley also found by accident from base of the sea this life plasm, which for name came Bathybius haeckelii. As a matter of fact this material was only mixture of plaster and alcohol, but at that time plasm cheating support suitably progressing of Darwin's evolution theory. Because weakness of Haeckel's first evolution tree could easily indicate, he planned new Monera-plasm growing organisms pedigree in year 1874. This drawing spread with the help of different medias both to science books and to textbooks. But to people does not tell, that information of those books are based on to imagination and that all proofs about developing of the man from lower kind is missing.


Idea of pedigree was stated so good to spreading work of evolution, that all possible animals were drawn their own pedigree. Also to schoolbooks were taken picture eg. from pedigrees of horses, whales, birds and the man. To support those drawings were compiled age charts of earth’s surface layers, in which age of the life by the degrees was got about 3.5 billion year. Layers was put fossils, which support different branches and age calculations in the pedigrees. These fossils were little by little call for leading fossils, with whose help were accompanied define age of stratums for suitable to evolution theory.

In year 1927 belgian G Lamaitre idea from initial explosion got among evolution supporters enthusiastic acceptance. According to this idea all material got its beginning from the smaller energy point than pin, every by accident exploded and spread all around forming nowadays known macrocosm with its galaxies. Our own the milky way was there atom in the smaller packet. Initial explosion placed the life plasm of Monera to development tree ideas and to current textbooks. Like this tree, which described from all developing got form of fan, in which initial point describes Big-Bang-explosion and in the end are species of animals which have clarified to this day.

1950's upset science world. Inside cell living (DNA) being building program structure clarified Francis Crick and Fred Hoyle. Started examining of cells and protein kinship. Was concluded, that in accordance with evolution gradually development line can be found also from birth history of living cells structures. In very large headlines were publish research results, in which so said. cell clock and changes which affected to structures of protein, support the evolution theory lines .


Truth as accidentally to the publicity

Darwin himself believed, that from ground settling we will come to find proofs that animal and plant kinds have developed from lower form to higher forms. Default demanded absolutely, that in fossil material is abound required intermediate forms from kinds, which move from kind to another kind. Darwin informed, that if this intermediate form does not be found, is his evolution theory declare for incorrect. Even though to science institutions were been able to put strong belief to competence of evolution, during over 100 years carried out searches didn't brought wished results. Researchers was forced to reveal, that in layers, in which should appear only elementary life, can be found al nowadays known species of animals and not at all intermediate forms. New Scientist-magazine wrote in year 1985 : " ...Most fossils appear quickly to layers, remain there as unchangeable some million year and disappear after that in the same way". Known evolution biologist Stephen J. Gould bring into view "Cambrise explosion". On this he describes life from under stratum found, ready species of animals. All kinds as vigorous and current richer. Under this life abuzz layer don’t found any proofs about the life, and above of it being layers amount of the kinds has reduced. Has born tree of development, which roots stick up and diverse set of living organisms is lowest.

When known development line researcher Richard Leakey was demanded in Walter Universe-program of Cronkite information from development line of the man, he was forced to admit: "If he would make development tree of the man, he would do only question-mark. " Dr.W.R informed as result of research, that common background of the man and ape is only imagination.

Evidence of cells

Evidences of cells and protein evolution fall down. Has resolved, that as proof used comparison charts was got from computers, which were thus programmed, that they formed from given differences suitable results from the point of view of evolution. When to computer was given basic data without command: "Form development tree", connections no more found. Known researcher and medicine doctor Michael Denton expose in his book these bluffs and that we can't find evolution supporting evidences of different molecules comparison. Results prove it, that each organism group is their own entirety and those can't classify to any development order on the basis of structure molecules.


In textbook of physics "Vuorovaikutus/WSOY-1996", is said that birth of macrocosm begins from initial explosion and comes to an end to the man; and that this information is based on to scientific truth. Account of textbook from developing of all beginning exceeds in its imagination many children storybooks. How many teacher dare to tell to his students, that this account is based on only to imagination and strong belief, that all however developed.


American chemist F. Doolittle presented as result of 4 DNA-research, that on the basis of cells building materials made development tree does not remind tree, but cruller.

Progressing of research researchers have reached to destination also from internal structures of cells and their operating principle. At the end of 1990’s internationally known cell researcher Michael J. Behe proved in his book, that complicated structure of cell and that it reminds large industrial establishment and activity of energy reclaiming- and operating system and different materials transport systems, haven't been able to born haphazardly and by the degrees. Forming of different cells and their produced effect- and structure materials are clear proofs that behind of that all must be extremely high intelligence.

By the degrees also different parts to the world teaching school official of evolution and to parents of children has been exposed, that so said. scientific evidences from the competence of evolution are missing. Development trees are like fairytales from pea stem, which reached to the sky. During last years in different states of USA has held quick-tempered conversations supporters of evolution have could only argue against, that people must trust to them even though proofs from macroevolution is not exist (developing of kind for another kind). There, why for supporting of evolution is continually sought safety about half truths, covering the truth and serious deceptions, they don't wanna answer in publicity. This is still clearer, that almost of 150-year time evolution theory has proved only stories, which based to imagination. As starting-point has been powerful belief, that evolution theory is true and we can’t examine its absurdity. As task of researchers has been only inventing various background accounts about that, how development has possibly taken place. Like this was born story collections, which win in their imagination fairytales of children and which serious faces scientists invent and tell to one another.



References:
1) New Scientist, 108 / 5.12.1985,
2) The Bone Peddlers / William R. Fix,
3 Evolution, A Theory in Crisis / Michael Denton
4) Scientific 2 of American / 2000,
5) darwin Black Box / Michael J. Behe


You guys are deceived by fairytales and imagination .....

[I less than three logic]

:words:
I don’t think you read the member’s agreement, specifically rule 4 about copyrighted material. All that stuff you click ok to does have a purpose you know. You should read that stuff before you just accept it.

Try putting these things in your own words, not pasting them. This will do two things for you. First, you won’t breach any rules. Second, it forces you actually understand all this stuff, which should help you to properly support your argument(s).

[Whydoe]

Oh, but it's gods words. He has to post them like that. :boggled:

[PetriFB]

I don’t think you read the member’s agreement, specifically rule 4 about copyrighted material. All that stuff you click ok to does have a purpose you know. You should read that stuff before you just accept it.

Try putting these things in your own words, not pasting them. This will do two things for you. First, you won’t breach any rules. Second, it forces you actually understand all this stuff, which should help you to properly support your argument(s).

Links are mine site and most of text is mine .........and I have also permission to use some material, which shows deception of evolution.. and I'm also a webmaster one of these sites .... .....

I understand when you "holy" cow has fall you try to boycott me in all ways, because you have nothing evidences to cancel about errors and arranged fakes of evolutionist science ....

[Whydoe]

One might just provide a link to these wonderful sites so that you can stop flooding this forum with crap. Then perhaps our "holy" cow won't fall.... or whatever you mean by that.

[Mojo]

I understand when you "holy" cow has fall you try to boycott me in all ways, because you have nothing evidences to cancel about errors and arranged fakes of evolutionist science ....I've linked you to a rebuttal of your "butterflies" (actually they were moths) argument. I suggest that you look up the rest of your points on the same site.

Now, can you provide some evidence that locusts only have four feet?

[arthwollipot]

...arranged fakes of evolutionist science ....

Um, did I miss something or was the peppered moth "fake" explained to you already?

[Mojo]

You guys are deceived by fairytales and imagination .....:i:

[Mojo]

Um, did I miss something or was the peppered moth "fake" explained to you already?Maybe he's accepted the point about Da Vinci's Last Supper proving that the gospels are fakes.

[arthwollipot]

No, I expect he's just ignored it like most creationists are wont to do. Since their opposition to evolution is based on religious conviction, and not on logic or common sense, they feel that they are free to ignore any argument they like the same way they ignore the arguments of different religions. I skipped some of this thread - has PetriFB tried to claim that evolution is a religion yet? If not, he will.

[Donks]

Difficulty to evolution is
Here we go...
that researchers have not found any intermediate form for indication about development of millions different plants and species of animals.
Ah yes, claim CC200 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html) which is of course wrong.
Known fact is, that assumed development events are among other things against following law of nature: law of thermodynamics
Morons still use claim CF001 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html)? That's just sad.
law from the birth of life
Uh, what law is that?
law from information (increasing of information by itself). Cell activity regulating Dna-program does not accept addition of information, which comes from outside, which is to evolution theory also large difficulty.
Back to standard claim CB102 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html).
It, that over 99% from observed mutations are harmfuls
Here is claim CB101 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html).
and yet any improving competitiveness individual mutation have not found.
With claim CB101.2 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101_2.html) as a tag along.
Evolution believers says that this shouldn't shake to believe to evolution.
Yes, it is so hard to accept evolution in light of your debunked claims.
Also not it, that nature selection don't improve kinds, but selection is directed only already existing kinds.
Wow, claim CB901.1 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB901_1.html) thrown in there for good measure! I did not expect that.
So we see how some people believe to deception and things which are impossible ......
Oh, and an argument from ignorance too!
But everybody can choose his way and he is in charge of about his life ... and one day he has to face his Creator ...
I fart in his general direction.

Petri: If you don't read the links I have provided, I'll just have to accept you as a troll with no interest in learning.

[Zep]

Thank goodness pillory is the right type of Finn, and not like this deliberate ignoramus.

[slickcat]

PetriFB,

Please refer to this official God F.A.Q. - it will answer everything you need to know:

Official God FAQ (http://www.400monkeys.com/God/)

:D

[Dr Adequate]

According to those who believe to evolution theory:

All plants and animals are result of slow development. By accident from dead material born initial cell happened copying faults, thanks to cell database grew and million years later diversified. Stronger cells ate weak cells and like this better survived to increase and to diversify. In some phase was born original form of plants, after every fern phases formed various increase alternatives and finally also basic form of apple and so on. At the same time by accident developed other kind of living organisms. For those developed by way of accident and mutations senses and to moving necessary limbs. In some phase they noticed by accident for colourful changed blossom of plants and knew by accident tempting fragrance, which plants spread. Developed ecological system of apple plant and insects co-operation. This is the most pathetic attempt to explain the Theory of Evolution that I have ever seen.

Difficulty to evolution is, that researchers have not found any intermediate form for indication about development of millions different plants and species of animals. This is a lie.

Intermediate Forms Between Classes

Known fact is, that assumed development events are among other things against following law of nature: law of thermodynamics... This is a lie.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

law from the birth of life This is a lie. There is no "law from the birth of life" which is why this phrase gets no hits on Google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=WZPA,WZPA:2006-22,WZPA:en&q=%22law+from+the+birth+of+life%22)

and law from information (increasing of information by itself). This is a lie. There is no law in information theory which says that information cannot increase. My authority here would be myself: I have a PhD in maths and have studied information theory.

Cell activity regulating Dna-program does not accept addition of information, which comes from outside, which is to evolution theory also large difficulty. This is a lie. Mutation can indeed increase the quantity of information in the genome.

It, that over 99% from observed mutations are harmfuls, This is a lie. No such observation has been made.

and yet any improving competitiveness individual mutation have not found. This is a lie. The examples of mutation which increase fitness are countless.

Evolution believers says that this shouldn't shake to believe to evolution. This is a lie. What we actually say is "The examples of mutation which increase fitness are countless"

Also not it, that nature selection don't improve kinds, but selection is directed only already existing kinds. This is nearly true, but pointless. Natural selection selects advantageous mutations --- you know, those things you just lied about? This "improves kinds".

Could you try to argue for your point of view without continually lying to me?

[Moochie]

PetriFB,

You have not offered any reproducible proof of anything thus far. Instead, you regale us with fanciful verbiage from your site(s) and perhaps other sites with a vested interest in pushing your agenda.

I ask you to please desist, or at least provide evidence from accredited psychologists/psychiatrists that you are of sound mind and in full possession of your faculties. Some of us have serious doubts about the soundness of your mind.

No offense intended, but you come across as someone in dire need of help.

Take care,

M.

[I less than three logic]

Links are mine site and most of text is mine .........and I have also permission to use some material, which shows deception of evolution.. and I'm also a webmaster one of these sites .... .....
First, because of the English grammar used by you in posts such as this, in contrast to the grammar used in “your” web sites, I’d concluded that you did not write both. Second, even if you took the text from your web sites, if the text you put on your web sites was taken directly from another source, that still counts as a breach of the copyright rule since the text you are quoting is still copyrighted by the original source. Plagiarizing onto your sites first, then taking the text off your site instead of the original does not exempt you from the rule.

I understand when you "holy" cow has fall you try to boycott me in all ways, because you have nothing evidences to cancel about errors and arranged fakes of evolutionist science ....
I have no “holy” cow, as you put it, my opinion is based and subject to change entirely upon the evidence. Every one of your “errors and arranged fakes” has been disputed, yet you offer no evidence supporting you claims. You simply preach the same tired responses over and over.

So far, in this thread alone, you’ve been shown wrong more times than I have patience to count. You’ve demonstrated an abysmal understanding of even the most basic of sciences, you seem to have no concept of the scientific method, and have shown no intention of actually learning anything about that which you’re attempting to discredit. As I’ve already said before in this thread, your inability to understand how a particular theory works (be it plate tectonics or evolution) does not make the theory false, nor does it make your alternative idea that “God did it” true, your entire presence in this thread is simply a drawn out argument from ignorance fallacy.

[Meffy]

Folks, looks to me as if Petri is a gelatinous cube. Doesn't notice anything, can't be reasoned with. Only thing to do is let it slurp along the corridor while heading some other way. My opinion merely.

[This Guy]

Folks, looks to me as if Petri is a gelatinous cube. Doesn't notice anything, can't be reasoned with. Only thing to do is let it slurp along the corridor while heading some other way. My opinion merely.

Maybe if we put some EVOO on the floor, it would slurp along faster ;)

(We could all grab a spoon and eat it, but it's prolly Lime. I hate Lime)

[Meffy]

Evoo, help us now! We invoke thee! Maybe a little tarragon too, to leave the corridor smelling cucina-fresh.

[elliotfc]

Folks, looks to me as if Petri is a gelatinous cube. Doesn't notice anything, can't be reasoned with. Only thing to do is let it slurp along the corridor while heading some other way. My opinion merely.

Hey, that's a Petri diss!

-Elliot

[Meffy]

True. This does not agar well.

(Friends, remember this discussion if anyone says JREF posters lack culture.)

[Donks]

(Friends, remember this discussion if anyone says JREF posters lack culture.)
Yes, let it never be said that JREFers can't make awful, awful puns.

[Meffy]

My worst puns are too obscure for anyone to get. :-( Like a pathogen that kills its host, they're failures. I'll try to avoid those.

[arthwollipot]

So far, in this thread alone, you’ve been shown wrong more times than I have patience to count. You’ve demonstrated an abysmal understanding of even the most basic of sciences, you seem to have no concept of the scientific method, and have shown no intention of actually learning anything about that which you’re attempting to discredit. As I’ve already said before in this thread, your inability to understand how a particular theory works (be it plate tectonics or evolution) does not make the theory false, nor does it make your alternative idea that “God did it” true, your entire presence in this thread is simply a drawn out argument from ignorance fallacy.

Like I said, when arguing from religious conviction it is safe to ignore logic and common sense.

[St_Hereticus]

I'm discussing about the Bible and that it is word of God .......


The Bible cannot be the "word of God", since, according to 1 Corinthians 14:33, "God is not the author of confusion", and the Bible is the most confusing piece of writing ever written!

[kurious_kathy]

PetriFB, do you really think there is anyone here who has not heard of this "Him" you speak of? I have heard of "Him" all my life. I have also studied the Bible. If "He" wanted to "convert" me from atheism, why has "He" not done so? What is "He" waiting for?
How about a heart that's open to Him?

If I was an atheist, and I never have been or will be, but I would be quite intrigued with reading up on some of the other ex-atheists testimonies that have been converted to Christianity like Lee Strobel and C.S. Lewis for starters. These guys took many years to come to faith, but when they truely endevoured to find God, they did.