Nothing Fails Like Prayer (not)

[woodguard]

Did God listen to the prayer?

I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?
It even started to go down for a while.

How is this proof nothing happened?

I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have.
Maybe is graph should go in the "file drawer" and find another one, that shows you evidents better.

[CP489]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

And the "Gas Price Prayer" is a fail-proof prayer. If at ANY POINT in the future, gas prices fall, they can claim success.

[Pyrrho]

Washington DC really is the capital of the United States of America.

It would be just like God to raise gasoline prices in response to prayer...as if Almighty God is concerned with worldly matters.

Or, one could argue that the Devil had more influence because people are so wicked. Or, one could argue that not enough people prayed. The beat goes on...

[case sensitive]

All mighty and all knowing God listens to a prayer and then does nothing to lower the price. I see no evidence of a miracle. And without evidence of a miracle there is no miracle.

[Pyrrho]

"That's all part of God's plan."

"God must have a good reason for not lowering gas prices."

"Who are we to question God?"

Might as well get the usual answers out of the way.

The notion of praying for lower gasoline prices is manifestly ridiculous and silly, and just about as self-serving as US of Americans can get.

[Beleth]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.

I'm not saying that the two had anything to do with each other. I'm just saying that the evidence provided does not disprove the hypothesis that praying has no effect.

Who knows exactly what all those clergymen actually prayed for? Maybe a bunch of them prayed for "gas prices to stop rising" instead of for "gas prices to go down".

While I am a firm believer that prayer is ineffectual, this study does not add to the data supporting that belief.

[case sensitive]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.

I'm not saying that the two had anything to do with each other. I'm just saying that the evidence provided does not disprove the hypothesis that praying has no effect.

Who knows exactly what all those clergymen actually prayed for? Maybe a bunch of them prayed for "gas prices to stop rising" instead of for "gas prices to go down".

While I am a firm believer that prayer is ineffectual, this study does not add to the data supporting that belief.

Maybe but if we did a little research about changes in oilprices and the real reasons behind this curve I am sure we would find nothing strange at all.

[woodguard]

All mighty and all knowing God listens to a prayer and then does nothing to lower the price. I see no evidence of a miracle. And without evidence of a miracles there is no miracle.


Open you eyes and look at the graph. No one is saying God or Proof of miracle. The graph shows an effect around the time of the praying.

[woodguard]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

And the "Gas Price Prayer" is a fail-proof prayer. If at ANY POINT in the future, gas prices fall, they can claim success.

Is’t that a woowoo tactic. If you can not attack the evidents, attack the person.

And if your going to correct my grammar, please show what you mean.
I learn from my mistakes. :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Petroleum comes from under the earth, so perhaps supplications to cthonic entities would be more effective than prayer to "heaven".

[amhartley]

People so often think of a miracle as a suspension or breaking of natural laws. In “case-sensitive’s” words, a miracle is “something strange.”

But the biggest miracle is that God loved us enough to send Jesus, even to die for us, & even when we hated Him. And the next biggest (although one that preceded the stable & the Cross) is that He upholds this world, i.e., that He has put those natural laws in place.

It is tragic that, since the time of Descartes (recall his “substances”) & even before, Western culture has thought of the world as self-sufficient. According to this (deist) conception, a miracle is God intervening in the world that can get along just fine without Him, as if He were a blind watchmaker who had set the world in motion on its own. But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.

Come to think of it, this naturalist idea of a self-sufficient world is also a religion of sorts. Everybody has a divinity belief of some kind; the naturalist divinity belief is that the physical world came from nothing & has always existed.

Our view of God’s involvement with the world is quite a bit more important than grammar. Or even gas prices.
-Andrew

[Beleth]

But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro. Please feel free to repost this over in the "Religion and Philosophy" section of this forum, where it will get the responses it deserves.

Posting it here is less appropriate than posting it there, since it no longer has any applicability to the latest commentary.

[amhartley]

Beleth,
thx for the tip; I intend to.

Also, I will assume you mean that my post is relevant in both sections. Because the thread above assumes a certain picture of miracles, God & His involvement in the world. I think you will agree that JREF members are interested in questioning assumptions?

[CP489]

Did God listen to the prayer?

I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?
It even started to go down for a while.

How is this proof nothing happened?

I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have.
Maybe is graph should go in the "file drawer" and find another one, that shows you evidents better.


"I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?" should be "I'm looking at a graph that stops going up and flattens out.

Evidents should be evidence.

"I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have." Should be "I don't think it is acceptable to take a stance on a subject without looking at the available evidence."

I don't even know what you meant by the last sentence.

[Beleth]

Beleth,
thx for the tip; I intend to. Good to hear.

Also, I will assume you mean that my post is relevant in both sections. Err, no. I meant what I said. For a clarification, see below.

Because the thread above assumes a certain picture of miracles, God & His involvement in the world. I think you will agree that JREF members are interested in questioning assumptions?Of course. But the assumptions relevant to the latest commentary (and thus this forum) belong to the clergy doing the praying, and not to Randi. Therefore discussing them here is not very useful.

[amhartley]

Good to hear.

Err, no. I meant what I said. For a clarification, see below.

Of course. But the assumptions relevant to the latest commentary (and thus this forum) belong to the clergy doing the praying, and not to Randi. Therefore discussing them here is not very useful.

Beleth,
thx for clarifying. The assumptions relevant to the latest commentary, at least (I won't refer to those of Randi in general), have to do with what constitutes a "miracle." Both the clergy and Randi are assuming certain definitions of one. As I've said, that's not necessarily the biblical definition.

Your reply could be interpreted as an implicit denial that our discussants are assuming anything, or at least anything relevant. I certainly hope you're not trying to squash a questioning of assumptions, 'cuz as far as I can tell that's not what Randi is to be about.

[psy kick]

I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.

[CP489]

Hey! The same thing happens when I do nothing. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't...weird.

[psy kick]

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

[woodguard]

I did find it odd. Looking at one little graph showing an effect. Just one test that is statically meaningless. But already God, the bible and miracles are on the table.

Do you see the bias?

I thought that in science(and skepticism) you looked at the facts and I did not see God or a miracle in the test. All I saw, was one little test that was reported wrongly. I do wonder how many other prayer studies are rejected this way.

You can’t judge things based on what you think is right or wrong. Thank GOD, science came along and show us the truth. Intuition is a bad science tool.



CP489 Thanks for the grammar tips. How, that I see it, I was typing worst then normal. I am trusting my grammar checker too much. And will work on it. :blush:

[Beleth]

Beleth,
thx for clarifying.
You are welcome. As you might have noticed, I have also responded to your post over in R&P.

[CP489]

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.


I somehow doubt this happened.

[psy kick]

Well, it did.

[psy kick]

Well, it did. I know, you don't Want to believe.

[woodguard]

I somehow doubt this happened.


Statically, this is possible.
If a hundred people pray for twenty dollars, a few will get or find twenty dollars or close to it.
This is a fallacy of prayer and magical thinking. Only recording your hits and do not count the misses.

Looking hard enough, there will always be something to find to count as a hit.
But then again “God gives you what you need, not what you want!” :confused:

[gnome]

Well, it did. I know, you don't Want to believe.

But, it is very easy to say that it did, whether it happened or not, and so it doesn't come off as very convincing. Especially over something anonymous like the Internet, personal testimony of an unusual event is not very convincing.

Some details might help though... who did it turn out to be? did they say why they sent the money? What form was the money in? cash, check, money order? Was it a personal payment or related to a business? Lots of information would help us decide whether it makes sense.

That's if you care to convince, which it sounds like you do.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

OK.

What was the amount?

What was the money needed for?

Not asking for proof, just some more details of the story.

[Mr. Scott]

I had a Born Again Christian friend who once assured me that if I prayed to Jesus for anything I wanted, my prayers would absolutely, positively be answered. I asked him what would happen if I prayed to have sex with a specific sexy movie star. He said that Jesus would change my heart, so I no longer wanted that.

Since the prayers for lowering gas prices were, for all intents and purposes, unanswered, he must conclude that god wants gas prices high and those who prayed have had their hearts changed and now favor gas pump sticker shock.

I do see WoodGuard's point that the graph Randi shows does not make it obvious that prayer fails, since prices did at least stop rising and dipped a little after the prayers were cast. If god had any effect on gas prices, he seemed to be thumbing his nose at those praying. Judging by the graph, his message appears to be a passive-aggressive "Yes, I can control gas prices, but I refuse to lower them for you because I won't be bullied by you praying fools."

[LostAngeles]

OK.

What was the amount?

What was the money needed for?

Not asking for proof, just some more details of the story.

I actually did have the same thing happen to me.

It was at the beginning of the semester and I really needed my dispersement to cover the high cost of science textbooks and lab manuals. So I got down and my knees and prayed in supplication to the God of Financial Aid. When I got home, I checked the mail and there was my dispersement check! Sent to me by a complete stranger from the District!

What happened was, the District who runs the schools tends to screw up regularly. In this case, they screwed up in my favor. I had a library fine that I had just paid the day before that should have been holding my dispersement back. However, the District, being a very incompetant entity, still sent out the check. +1 them for that time, -1 googleplex for everything else.

So see, it does sometimes happen...

[woodguard]

since prices did at least stop rising and dipped a little after the prayers were cast. If god had any effect on gas prices, he seemed to be thumbing his nose at those praying. Judging by the graph, his message appears to be a passive-aggressive "Yes, I can control gas prices, but I refuse to lower them for you because I won't be bullied by you praying fools."

Or was God just saying, keep up your FAITH! :scared:

[case sensitive]

Or was God just saying, keep up your FAITH! :scared:

Or maybe God was saying: I don't exist. But very quiet.

[woodguard]

Or maybe God was saying: I don't exist. But very quiet.


But wait, GOD CAN’T LIE!!!!! :faint:

[case sensitive]

But wait, GOD CAN’T LIE!!!!! :faint:

I thought he could do anything. But he doesn't have to because people make up their on miracles. Maybe the world should go together and demand a miracle from God. Maybe he could give a speach during the World Cup in Germany.

[psy kick]

Some details might help though... who did it turn out to be? did they say why they sent the money? What form was the money in? cash, check, money order? Was it a personal payment or related to a business? Lots of information would help us decide whether it makes sense.

That's if you care to convince, which it sounds like you do.
Okay. A few months ago, I prayed for some cash, as I have been unemployed a while. I go online on a christian board. I posted we were having financial troubles. A nice stranger got my address from me and said God told her to send this exact amount (a round number) which I hadn't mentioned any amount to her.
God doesn't always answer; I know for a fact.
So throwing prayers out-sometimes something will stick.

[LostAngeles]

Okay. A few months ago, I prayed for some cash, as I have been unemployed a while. I go online on a christian board. I posted we were having financial troubles. A nice stranger got my address from me and said God told her to send this exact amount (a round number) which I hadn't mentioned any amount to her.
God doesn't always answer; I know for a fact.
So throwing prayers out-sometimes something will stick.

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

My story works better, considering it was 100% true when I told it the first time and every time, unlike yours.

[deBergerac]

I go online on a christian board. I posted we were having financial troubles. A nice stranger got my address from me and said God told her to send this exact amount (a round number) which I hadn't mentioned any amount to her.

It sounds to me as if you were asking a lot of people for help, and you were asking people that might be inklined to help you because of the fact that you were sharing the same faith.
In fact you were doing more than praying in order to get the money.

[Mr. Scott]

A long time ago after I took Silva Mind Control (which was Christian-oriented then) I prayed for $10 as a test. That day I found 10 cents, doubtless because I was carefully watching the ground. I told the instructor that his course was only 1% effective and therefore I owed him only 1% of the tuition fee (it was money-back guaranteed). He gave me all my money back because he was disappointed in me. This allowed him to save face and put the blame on me for the failure, just like the standard excuse that, if your prayers were not answered, your faith must have been inadequate.

Has anyone pressed the point to the people praying for low gas prices that they just needed to crank up their faith a few notches?

[psy kick]

My story works better, considering it was 100% true when I told it the first time and every time, unlike yours.Mine was true. I told no one the amount.

[LostAngeles]

Mine was true. I told no one the amount.

No, you said the first time around that you had told no one. You said nothing about any amount. Your statement implied that you had told no one that you had, "...asked for a certain amount of money..."

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

Question though, say God really did have this happen. Why has this God not healed cancer-stricken children who have prayed for healing and had others pray for it? What people in general who have asked for things that they desperately need to live and not gotten it, but God could send you this money?

Are you somehow more Christian or more deserving? Why does this God need these people to suffer and die?

I'm just curious about this God's priorities here.

[Forty-Two]

I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no. Realization of this aspect of prayer was the first step on my path to agnosticism. If it's unpredictable and unreliable, why bother?

[SezMe]

LostAngeles hit it out of the park with her questions. So, psy kick, what say you?

[Hellbound]

Just to point out that psy had prayed for a round number.

Since most people, if sending money, will send a round number, this really isn't very miraculous. Sounds more like coincidence.

Something similar happened to me this weekend, sans prayer. I wanted to buy some new weight plates for my weight bench. I needed $40 to buy the plates I needed. Suprise suprise, I got exactly $40 in a birthday card from my parents.

Coincidence <> God.

[jj]

Well now, let's be reasonable. The graph COULD be interpreted to show that dog is less powerful than Dick Cheney and the Oil Companies :)

[Thanz]

No, you said the first time around that you had told no one. You said nothing about any amount. Your statement implied that you had told no one that you had, "...asked for a certain amount of money..."
To be fair, I think that there is enough ambiguity in the first statement so that it can be read as consistent with the more detailed account. Of course, the less detail the more impressive it seems.

[LostAngeles]

To be fair, I think that there is enough ambiguity in the first statement so that it can be read as consistent with the more detailed account. Of course, the less detail the more impressive it seems.

Yes, but literal reading can go both ways, m'dust ball.

[gnome]

It's not much of a coincidence that someone from a group of people that knew he needed help sent an amount of money that happened to match an amount he was thinking of... certainly not the powerful statement psy kick was hoping would convince us that prayer beats wishing in the results department.

[Thanz]

It's not much of a coincidence that someone from a group of people that knew he needed help sent an amount of money that happened to match an amount he was thinking of... certainly not the powerful statement psy kick was hoping would convince us that prayer beats wishing in the results department.
True. Especially when one considers that it was a round number. Praying for $187.16 to pay the long overdue electrical bill and getting it is a lot more impressive than thinking "If I can just get a hundred bucks, I can make it through the month" and getting that.

[Skeptic Ginger]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.

I'm not saying that the two had anything to do with each other. I'm just saying that the evidence provided does not disprove the hypothesis that praying has no effect.

Who knows exactly what all those clergymen actually prayed for? Maybe a bunch of them prayed for "gas prices to stop rising" instead of for "gas prices to go down".

While I am a firm believer that prayer is ineffectual, this study does not add to the data supporting that belief.Of course it doesn't add to the mounting evidence prayer is ineffectual. It doesn't add to the evidence of anything. A poorly designed study shows nothing. Nothing, as in no evidence.

If I pray for the Sun to come up in the morning and it does, is that failing to disprove prayer works as well? Maybe, but is it worth even mentioning that it fails to disprove the effect of prayer? In the last hour my actions have not added to the evidence prayer is ineffectual. There is no evidence here one way or the other.

Fantasy in the eyes of those praying perhaps, which reminds me of childhood rituals that some people carry over into adulthood. I couldn't sleep at night, (I believed anyway), unless my closet door was shut. Ever watch a highly paid basketball player perform a ritual before shooting a free throw?

So here are all these 'believers' performing their 'worship rituals' to get through the day. "I better pray and go to church lest the Lord raise gas prices." "If I pray, God may lower those prices." That is all that is going on here. There is no evidence here because there is no study, no test, no research.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is’t that a woowoo tactic. If you can not attack the evidents, attack the person.

And if your going to correct my grammar, please show what you mean.
I learn from my mistakes. :p
evidence not evidents

Addressing your grammar and stating it was common among believers was indeed irrelevant to the issue.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hey, I have a couple of great atheist stories.

On one trip to Canada as a young college student I had gone with a boyfriend hitchhiking and traveling around the country. I have several great and very true stories from that trip alone.

We couldn't get a ride out of Banff as there were too many hitchers and not enough rides so we started walking. My only pair of shoes literally fell apart. I had no other shoes and we were going to have to walk a ways when right there at the very time my shoe broke, on the side of the road was a nice pair of Puma tennis shoes. Not only did they fit exactly, I ended up wearing them for a year or more.

We couldn't get a ride one night late and my boyfriend said if we lit a candle a truck driver would pick us up. Within minutes of lighting it, a truck stopped for us.

We had been camping at night in various places off the road just like the bums do. We camped one night in the dark. When we woke up there were many many cacti with big thorns all around us, yet we hadn't stepped nor slept on any of them in the dark.

We ran out of money and just happened on this little weekend rock festival. We were able to work for free admission and managed to take a fair amount of money away as well.

We had to toss our pot, (in those days, I don't smoke now, really), to cross the border yet found a bag full later on the other side just lying on the side of the road. (Probably that one is easy to explain. I hope the folks who left it got ours. :wink:)

And to think, I didn't have to perform any rituals for any of my miracles unless you consider lighting the candle a ritual.

[Beleth]

Of course it doesn't add to the mounting evidence prayer is ineffectual. It doesn't add to the evidence of anything. A poorly designed study shows nothing. Nothing, as in no evidence. I agree, which is why I am taking exception to Randi saying that this test "failed grandly (http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-06/060206nothing.html#i1)".

It neither succeeded nor failed. It simply did nothing.

[Jackalgirl]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.


Hi, Beleth --

I thought the same thing, and it got me thinking for a bit. But I looked at it several more times, and I realized that the graph levels out BEFORE the "prayer mark". The units of time are 24 days between marks, so -- doing a little eye-integration here -- the prices had been relatively level for maybe, uh, 6 or or so days? by the time the prayer test occured. So nothing really changed. I'm not sure I would call it a "grand failure" either, because it seems that "lower gas prices" is a pretty vague goal.

Mind you, I don't think that anyone who's really investing energy is going to pray and mean "5 cents lower" when they pray for "lower gas prices". If I were going to pray, I'd pray for something like "50 cents a gallon". And I'd expect the results within a couple of days. If /that/ happened, oh yeah, I'd be a believer. If they had claimed those kinds of results, then this definitely would have been a "grand failure". But of COURSE, nothing that specific was defined.

-- Kat

[macgyver]

Childhood rituals carried forward to adulthood; that's why I say Jesus is Santa Claus for adults!

I think LostAngeles hit probably the most compelling argument against God and prayer - why did the semi-truck run over a four year old boy in my town a couple weeks ago? Right in front of his mother and siblings on the way to pre-school? Thanks God....you suck...

Even if there is a God, he's a total bastard...so why would I suck up to Him?

[Medb]

I agree, which is why I am taking exception to Randi saying that this test "failed grandly (http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-06/060206nothing.html#i1)".

It neither succeeded nor failed. It simply did nothing.

But .... if you invent a death ray and you aim it at something and pull the trigger and nothing happens, isn't that a grand failure? It doesn't have to blow up in your face to be considered so.

[psy kick]

It's not much of a coincidence that someone from a group of people that knew he needed help sent an amount of money that happened to match an amount he was thinking of... certainly not the powerful statement psy kick was hoping would convince us that prayer beats wishing in the results department.I wasn't trying to convince that. I believe I said something to the order of "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Maybe just like chance."
Those were not my exact words, but i never said it worked often. it doesn't.
And I'm a she.

[psy kick]

I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.See?

[macgyver]

See?


See what? That prayer is identical to chance? Or in other words; that whether you pray or not it doesn't make any difference, you'll get the same result regardless?

I have an invisible, silent, floating, incorporeal dragon living in my garage....

[psy kick]

See where I said it doesn't seem to matter whether one prays or not.

Is that a 2 dragon garage?

[joller]

Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.
I might be a bit late with this, but I just wanted to point out that 'no' is an answer as well.

Actually, how do you know whether god answers with a 'no' or he doesn't answer at all?

Hey, the other day, I prayed so the world doesn't end on 6/6/6, and it didn't!
And boy, you got lucky with the guy who sent you money saying that god told him to do that..

Imagine if god told him to kill you!

[Beleth]

But .... if you invent a death ray and you aim it at something and pull the trigger and nothing happens, isn't that a grand failure? It doesn't have to blow up in your face to be considered so. There are failures, and there are grand failures. Having nothing happen is not a grand failure; it is a simple failure. But even so (and please pardon the double negative), nothing didn't happen in this case.
If you invent a death ray and pull the trigger and the person you aimed it at falls asleep, is that a failure?

[case sensitive]

There are failures, and there are grand failures. Having nothing happen is not a grand failure; it is a simple failure. But even so (and please pardon the double negative), nothing didn't happen in this case.
If you invent a death ray and pull the trigger and the person you aimed it at falls asleep, is that a failure?

Of course it is a failure. Now a sleep ray could be very usefull too.

Please define a grand failure. How can it be "grander" than zero results?
If you are trying to build a pyramid and end up with absolutely nothing. Is that a grand failure?

[Cheesejoff]

There are failures, and there are grand failures. Having nothing happen is not a grand failure; it is a simple failure. But even so (and please pardon the double negative), nothing didn't happen in this case.
If you invent a death ray and pull the trigger and the person you aimed it at falls asleep, is that a failure?

It didn't do what it was supposed to do, so the death ray is a failure. However you have now apparently invented a sleeping ray which is a success.

Anyway that doesn't matter: Take a look at the graph again! The graph starts levelling off several days BEFORE they make the prayer. Why did they start praying when the gas prices were steady? Doesn't it make more sense to pray when the gas prices are rising?

Apparently not. They knew that the price was going to stay roughly the same so they made their prayer at that specific time. They could have prayed just after 3/13 on the graph for a similiar effect.

[macgyver]

See where I said it doesn't seem to matter whether one prays or not.

Is that a 2 dragon garage?

Actually, you didn't say that it doesn't seem to matter, you said that sometimes prayer is definitely answered. My point is that it's not definite at all, you can't tell whether it's been answered or not. I would say that chance and coincidence would easily explain why you THINK that your prayer had an effect. However, the events you claim had devine intervention, would have occured (or not) regardless of whether or not you talk to yourself....

Since there's no way to determine from observation any qualities of my dragon (it requires faith to believe in him) there is an infinite number of dragons occupying no space in my garage.

[fuelair]

http://www.bandoli.no/sayings.htm

It includes my beloved "he is a malign thug." from Clemens and other appropriate. Enjoy freely and of your own will!!;)

[LostAngeles]

Still wondering if psy kick is going to answer about why this God has priority problems.

[Skeptic Ginger]

But .... if you invent a death ray and you aim it at something and pull the trigger and nothing happens, isn't that a grand failure? It doesn't have to blow up in your face to be considered so.Dunno if it's the same thing. In your example you built something. That would be a model. Models don't have the same rules a prospective study would have.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Still wondering if psy kick is going to answer about why this God has priority problems.Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God", or "Gosh, so burning those children alive in that house the other day makes so much sense now."?

[macgyver]

Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God"?

I don't think he needed a good reason to do this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

I guess he didn't have time to pray for help?

Probably too many people praying that it would end just like it did....

Was that a conincidence?

[gnome]

I wasn't trying to convince that. I believe I said something to the order of "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Maybe just like chance."
Those were not my exact words, but i never said it worked often. it doesn't.
And I'm a she.

And the backpedaling continues--let's review the entire record, shall we?

I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.

Hey! The same thing happens when I do nothing. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't...weird.

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

So here you're contradicting the idea that it's no better than chance.

Just in case you're worried, I'm not saying these things to be mean to you because you believe. I'm saying them because you've been inconsistent in your arguments. Have a look around and you'll see anyone else get the same treatment when that happens.

[psy kick]

Yeah, and I wonder if any of the people claiming, "God has his reasons" and "The reasons will be revealed" have thought about whether or not after hearing those supposed reasons they will say, "Gee, OK, I see now how wonderful you are, God", or "Gosh, so burning those children alive in that house the other day makes so much sense now."?Exactly. I had either of two options-either God isn't all powerful (if he was, he would stop illness and abuse) or he was, but just was very selective about who he helped (meaning he wasn't loving to some people).
There is no "reasons we can't know yet". I hate when people tell me that.
I am trying to decide between the two options. I hope he is not all powerful.

[Beleth]

Of course it is a failure. Now a sleep ray could be very usefull too. What makes you think it was a sleep ray? It could have been coincidence.

Please define a grand failure. How can it be "grander" than zero results?
If you are trying to build a pyramid and end up with absolutely nothing. Is that a grand failure? Grand (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=grand), def. 4: "large and striking in size, scope, extent, or conception"
Failure (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=failure), def. 1a: "omission of occurrence or performance"

So a "grand failure" is a "large and striking omission of occurrence or performance".

Zero results is neither large nor striking. Thus, it is not grand. Medb gave a good example of something blowing up in your face. If you are trying to build a pyramid and you end up with nothing, that is a failure. If you end up with a smoking radioactive hole in the ground, that is a grand failure.

What is it when, like in this case, you end up with something that looks like a half-built pyramid?

[Beleth]

Take a look at the graph again! The graph starts levelling off several days BEFORE they make the prayer. Why did they start praying when the gas prices were steady? Doesn't it make more sense to pray when the gas prices are rising? Good point. There is indeed one pixel's worth of leveling off before the marker line. Let me know the results of your research into those questions!

They knew that the price was going to stay roughly the same so they made their prayer at that specific time.Please show evidence that they knew this. Perhaps it's true that they did not know that prices had stabilized, so they prayed anyway.

They could have prayed just after 3/13 on the graph for a similiar effect.Hindsight's always 20/20...

[case sensitive]

What makes you think it was a sleep ray? It could have been coincidence.

Grand (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=grand), def. 4: "large and striking in size, scope, extent, or conception"
Failure (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=failure), def. 1a: "omission of occurrence or performance"

So a "grand failure" is a "large and striking omission of occurrence or performance".

Zero results is neither large nor striking. Thus, it is not grand. Medb gave a good example of something blowing up in your face. If you are trying to build a pyramid and you end up with nothing, that is a failure. If you end up with a smoking radioactive hole in the ground, that is a grand failure.

What is it when, like in this case, you end up with something that looks like a half-built pyramid?

Are you referring to the prayer results when you talk about half-built pyramid. Cause I didn't see any half result there.

So if you have 50 000 men working around the clock for 400 years trying to build a pyramid and ending up with nothing. That isn't a grand failure? I don't think the Egyptians would have agreed with you.

[LostAngeles]

Exactly. I had either of two options-either God isn't all powerful (if he was, he would stop illness and abuse) or he was, but just was very selective about who he helped (meaning he wasn't loving to some people).
There is no "reasons we can't know yet". I hate when people tell me that.
I am trying to decide between the two options. I hope he is not all powerful.

Well, I'm happy to know you're thinking about it at least.

[Beleth]

Are you referring to the prayer results when you talk about half-built pyramid. Cause I didn't see any half result there.You don't? I do. The slope of the graph changes dramatically at around that point. Perhaps a pixel before that point, as I have mentioned. It's be really nice to have a more detailed graph, but given what we have, it's clearly unreasonable to conclude that nothing happened at or around the point marked by the red line.


So if you have 50 000 men working around the clock for 400 years trying to build a pyramid and ending up with nothing. That isn't a grand failure? I believe I've answered this already.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think he needed a good reason to do this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/od_nm/ukraine_lion_dc

I guess he didn't have time to pray for help?

Probably too many people praying that it would end just like it did....

Was that a conincidence?
That one's being discussed in this thread. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57997#post1689731)

[Yahzi]

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.
Do you know what I ask God for? Right now, somewhere in this country, a child is being raped. It happens every few minutes. It is happening now. What I ask God for, every single day, every single night, every hour of every week, is to call me on the phone and give me an address.

He doesn't have do to anything more than that. He doesn't have to interfere with anybody's free will. I'll do that. He doesn't have to reveal himself - if he wants to keep it anoynomous, that's fine. I'll keep his name out of the papers. He doesn't have to send angels or move bridges or anything. Just give me an address. I'll take myself there and accept full responsiblity for the consequences. Heck, he can call me collect if he can't afford the long-distance fees. I'll pay for the call. All I want from God is an address.

That's all. Just pick up the phone, punch in my number, and whisper an address.

But my phone never rings.

I guess God was too busy sending you money to call me.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Good answer, Yahzi.

[politas]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?
Yeah, it's something I've noticed. if you base your decisions on what to believe entirely on the quality of grammar used by Internet supporters, you end up with the skeptical position being overwhelmingly convincing.

[psy kick]

Do you know what I ask God for? Right now, somewhere in this country, a child is being raped. It happens every few minutes. It is happening now. What I ask God for, every single day, every single night, every hour of every week, is to call me on the phone and give me an address.



But my phone never rings.

I guess God was too busy sending you money to call me.
I wish he would call you instead, too. I can't make him.

[macgyver]

I wish he would call you instead, too. I can't make him.

Isn't that what prayer is for?

Also, could you expand on the meaning of your signature? "Evolution is false", I find it a confusing statement if there's no "because" after it.

[ChaoticLimbs]

I always love dealing with people who believe there's a benevolent God watching over them and taking care of them.
The reason this is absurd to me is that I usually see it in the First World, where bad things are statistically less likely to happen to them than in the Third World. I've been to the Third World and let me tell you guys one thing:
Being born in Europe, or the USA basically means that unless you screw up REALLY bad, you're gonna have a statistically high likelihood of being all right.
If you're born in Haiti, or one of the central or west central African republics, you're pretty much screwed.
What I want to know is how come God's been spending so much time making sure Americans are okay, when they're surrounded by opportunity and wealth, while he systematically and callously allows over 20,000 children to die in Africa in one day? I mean really, I'm good, get your butt over there and fix some stuff, great and powerful creator!
I used to be a Christian. For 30 years. Then I realized that all the good fortune and charmed life that I had for so long attributed to a benevolent God was more adequately explained by the favorable situation of my birth, and that had I been born somewhere else, this benevolent God would have been a no-show.
Once I saw how the situation on Earth is so ridiculously unfair, unjust and horrible, I realized that there can be no benevolent God, and no story about how it's all related to FRUIT can POSSIBLY convince a rational person that the overwhelming lack of any action of benevolence from God is explained away by how "bad" humans are or were in the beginning.
I won't worship a deity who's less forgiving and enlightened than I am, and I won't admire a parent who sentences their child to death at the first infraction. Such a thing simply is not admirable. If there's a God, I reject him as capricious, hateful, unforgiving, nasty, callous, and utterly unredeemable as a being.
An all powerful being has an OBLIGATION to oversee the development of his subjects/children, and to supervise and control the circumstances of their development. If this were not the case, our children would be born not into carefully prepared sterile linens, but into the desert to fend for themselves and pass or fail the test of life. For how much more powerful is God in comparison to a parent?
Sorry, but prayer to an all powerful but still arbitrary deity has to be a hopeless exercise. And studies show that it is. They don't prove that he doesn't exist, they prove that he is not active as a force on this planet. This can mean he doesn't exist, doesn't care, or, per Schroedinger, both.

[slingblade]

Nominated!

[Mick Houlahan]

Regular $3.09 a gallon today in Ohio.

Praise Jesus!

[slingblade]

Yeah, it's something I've noticed. if you base your decisions on what to believe entirely on the quality of grammar used by Internet supporters, you end up with the skeptical position being overwhelmingly convincing.

Well, I think of it this way: if you're not concerned about the details, the little things, the picky stuff, why should I trust you with the big things, the things that really matter? Like your arguments?

If you've read enough, learned enough, and explored enough to at least have some grounding for your opinions, wouldn't your writing reflect that? Maybe you haven't read much, explored much, or learned much. Maybe your opinions reflect that, as well as your grammar and spelling?

If you care enough to create a post, don't you care enough when you're done to go back over it, examine it for flaws, errors, maybe even read it aloud, as written, to yourself, before you hit "send?" You know: maybe raise your credibility points a little?

Look, if you don't care, you don't care. But in that case, when you make it so obvious, you can't expect me to care, either.

(Should have used the neutral "one," instead of "you," but am too lazy to recast, so take it as given, please.)

[politas]

Well, I think of it this way: if you're not concerned about the details, the little things, the picky stuff, why should I trust you with the big things, the things that really matter? Like your arguments?

But there's a bigger question, and that is why do so many woos have such poor grammar? Setting aside those for whom English is a second language, I suspect it is a matter of habits of thought.

I like to do things properly and well. In my writing, I try to use correct grammar and spelling. In my thinking, I try to do likewise. I like to examine my thoughts in the same way that I proofread my writing. Interestingly, I find that people who get upset by corrections to their grammar tend to be the same people who get upset about challenges to their arguments.

I actually don't mind a proper grammar or spelling flame. Typo flames are a different thing, of course.

(Should have used the neutral "one," instead of "you," but am too lazy to recast, so take it as given, please.)

No, it's fine as it is. I generally find it a better way to cast such statements in a gender-neutral way than messing about with "one."

[articulett]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

And the "Gas Price Prayer" is a fail-proof prayer. If at ANY POINT in the future, gas prices fall, they can claim success.

But if prices never go down, does that mean Satan wins? And is invoking Satan still called prayer?

Oh the conundrums!

[CFLarsen]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

They only speak in tongues?

[slingblade]

But there's a bigger question, and that is why do so many woos have such poor grammar? Setting aside those for whom English is a second language, I suspect it is a matter of habits of thought.


:) I think that's a large part of my point, as well: careless habits of mind, which come through in the writing, and in the reaction to correction.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Had there been proper data collection about that bad grammar-evangelical preponderance? Or is it a potentially faulty anecdotal data analysis?

If it is a factual conclusion I think it has significance.

[KelvinG]

People, people. This whole thread is a waste of time.
A couple of simple sentences will put all you nasty skeptics in your place:

God works in mysterious ways. It is not our place to question his methods.

There you go. Threads over. Believers win.
I think the moderators should lock this thread.

[articulett]

They only speak in tongues?

...and thus write in jibberish...

[politas]

Had there been proper data collection about that bad grammar-evangelical preponderance? Or is it a potentially faulty anecdotal data analysis?

If it is a factual conclusion I think it has significance.

Oh, at this stage, it's entirely anecdotal. I certainly know of no studies into this area.

However, anecdotal evidence of this sort is a perfectly acceptable basis for a hypothesis. It's a hypothesis I doubt will ever be tested in a meaningful way, but as long as no one starts claiming it to be some kind of law, or making a theory out of it without sufficient study, it can remain a harmless amusement.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh, at this stage, it's entirely anecdotal. I certainly know of no studies into this area.

However, anecdotal evidence of this sort is a perfectly acceptable basis for a hypothesis. It's a hypothesis I doubt will ever be tested in a meaningful way, but as long as no one starts claiming it to be some kind of law, or making a theory out of it without sufficient study, it can remain a harmless amusement.Just trying to keep the skeptics honest. ;)

[slingblade]

Had there been proper data collection about that bad grammar-evangelical preponderance? Or is it a potentially faulty anecdotal data analysis?


I don't know; maybe it's simply where research questions begin?

"Hmmm...I've noticed that folks who tout woo the hardest also seem to have problems with proper grammar and spelling. I wonder if there's some connection? Hey, you guys! Yeah, you! Have you noticed this, too? You have? Maybe it bears looking into........"

Like that. :)