DJLegacy of LC Forum Proves Gravy Dead Wrong!

[Gravy]

As soon as he gets here, that is.... (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1686616&postcount=1779)


eta: link

[Belz...]

As soon as he gets here, that is....

Isn't a very prolific writer, is he ?

[Apollyon]

How long has DJLegacy been making the claim that he is in the process of debunking your debunking, Gravy? It sure seems like it's been quite a while now.

Must be all that careful, in-depth research that's taking so much time.

[delphi_ote]

Be vigilant, my ninja brethren! He could strike at any moment!

Must... stay... alert...
:s2:

[Hellbound]

*Huntmans sneaks in and ties a tripwire with enpty tin cans around the trhead*

There, now it's got an alarm and we can take a nap.

[chipmunk stew]

He's busy training. Working hard on mastering his Tu Quoque Technique.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5147

[kookbreaker]

Someone told him about this at LC forum, right?

[XXX]

How long has DJLegacy been making the claim that he is in the process of debunking your debunking, Gravy? It sure seems like it's been quite a while now.

Must be all that careful, in-depth research that's taking so much time.

Exactly. Always a work in progress. And the LCers can sleep at night knowing that, even though THEY don't know exactly how Gravy has been debunked, that Mr DJ man does and he's hard at work on the guide. So they can just ignore Gravy's guide because it has been "debunked" (even though it hasn't). Nice little arrangement. It's like when they post a like to that pathetic "debunking" of 911 myths, and act like they've actually made a point. (That one too of course is still a work in progress of course) I wounder if they've even read it.

[strathmeyer]

I like how the guy just keeps saying that he is working on it, and can't actually point out anything that Gravy said that was wrong, or... you know... that thing that forums are meant for... involve himself in a discussion with other people about it.

[Gravy]

He's busy training. Working hard on mastering his Tu Quoque Technique.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5147
Thanks a LOT, chipmunk

I will respond to Gravy not because that goofball article does anything to discredit the movement, but because the dude is a complete tool and a hypocrite.

Skeptics use his article like the bible and all it is, is a bunch of garbage. He draws a conclusion is his head then finds unsourced quotes to try to turn the tide his way...just like he blames LC of doing...go figure....

You people blame followers of LC for backing a documentary that "is full of rhetoric and lacks substance"...but yet you all quote Gravy like his article isnt complete ********....

Time for these types of people to be put in their place...Period...You want to discredit Dylan and the group...I'll show you how much ******** your side is as well...

Im not doing this to defend LC, we all admit their are problems with it, this is a about the truth...

Gravy is a hypocritical peice of trash....period.

Clear enough?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5147&view=findpost&p=4965896
Okay, y'all don't need to post any more links to how much DJ thinks I'm full of it. You're upsetting the corgi.

[azazal]

hmmm, scans Gravy's debunk of LC, yeap I see some sources there. Checks LC, holds back urge to vomit, nope, no real sources there.

Must be the ninja vision getting in my way.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Thanks a LOT, chipmunk


Okay, y'all don't need to post any more links to how much DJ thinks I'm full of it. You're upsetting the corgi.

You have to admin though, it is par for the course for them. Make an accusation and don't back it up with any evidence.

[dubfan]

None of these Gravy "debunkings" will address any of his facts.

They will cherry pick spots where Gravy stated a personal opinion, used sarcasm, or dropped a footnote. Then they'll yell..."see he's just as bad as Loose Change!" without a hint of irony.

And that will be their "debunking".

ETA: the walkback has already started (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5147&view=findpost&p=4932816).

[Orb]

DK says he is awaiting account approval. I wonder if there was an issue with his registration? I seem to remember others at LC didn't like our registration process.

[chipmunk stew]

DK says he is awaiting account approval. I wonder if there was an issue with his registration? I seem to remember others at LC didn't like our registration process.Well, it is a moderated registration process--if he just now registered, he may not be approved for another 24-48 hours. I'll back off until he shows.

[Gravy]

hmmm, scans Gravy's debunk of LC, yeap I see some sources there. Checks LC, holds back urge to vomit, nope, no real sources there.

Must be the ninja vision getting in my way.
There's plenty to criticize in the way I put my critique together. But I think DJ misses something vital when he talks about sources. I didn't criticize Avery simply for not footnoting every statement. I criticized him for making statements that facts, evidence, and logic don't support. Likewise, I don't footnote every statement of mine. My critique wasn't meant for academic journals. But I tried to make sure that my statements are supportable, should someone want to look at the truth behind them.

As for the sarcasm, it may be counterproductive, but it's nothing compared to how I really feel about Avery and his followers. I am absolutely furious that these people can't be bothered with the facts of 9/11. It's despicable behavior.

[Gravy]

DK says he is awaiting account approval. I wonder if there was an issue with his registration? I seem to remember others at LC didn't like our registration process.
It can take time. In the meantime, he has my email address....

[chipmunk stew]

None of these Gravy "debunkings" will address any of his facts.

They will cherry pick spots where Gravy stated a personal opinion, used sarcasm, or dropped a footnote. Then they'll yell..."see he's just as bad as Loose Change!" without a hint of irony.

And that will be their "debunking".

ETA: the walkback has already started (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5147&view=findpost&p=4932816).I don't believe this guy! Roxdog is accusing Gravy of "hiding"! Roxdog's got an active account here, for godsake! And he also never got back to dubfan, who had agreed to go on his show. This guy is a piece of work.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5683&view=findpost&p=5089690
DJ and Gravy, come on my show together. http://www.proxyfoxy.com/index.php?q=aHR0cDovLzY3LjE1LjEyOS4xMzkvNjAxNC8xNT IvZW1vL2JveGluZy5naWY%3D

Come on GRavy, don't be such a p&ssy. Come "flap your gums" on my show and stop hiding. Stop making excuses about WHY you won't come on my show and just do it. If the roles were reversed I certainly wouldn't hide from you. Let's do this. http://www.proxyfoxy.com/index.php?q=aHR0cDovLzY3LjE1LjEyOS4xMzkvNjAxNC8xNT IvZW1vL3RodW1ic3VwLmdpZg%3D%3D

[XXX]

He's already got the excuse machine going, saying he'll just get personally attacked and we'll all gang up on him, so he'll just walk away from our "immature crap".

BTW, it'll probably be tommorow when hs acount gets validated. Mine took 24 hours, and I even got rejected my first time!

[kookbreaker]

Doesn't Roxdog lobby for the banning of skeptics at LC the moment they show up?

[dubfan]

I don't believe this guy! Roxdog is accusing Gravy of "hiding"! Roxdog's got an active account here, for godsake! And he also never got back to dubfan, who had agreed to go on his show. This guy is a piece of work.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5683&view=findpost&p=5089690

That's a funny thread.

At least one JREF member that I know of has agreed to do Rox's show. It was discussed at least twice, and each time Rox abandoned the thread after it was shown that he refused to provide details.

I don't blame Gravy (or anyone else) for not wanting to do his show. Rox has shown he won't give any detail about which specific issues he wants to discuss, or who else will be on the show discussing it. Classic talk-show ambush technique.

[Gravy]

I don't believe this guy! Roxdog is accusing Gravy of "hiding"! Roxdog's got an active account here, for godsake! And he also never got back to dubfan, who had agreed to go on his show. This guy is a piece of work.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1619715&postcount=2859

Not that he ever asked me do do his show anyway!

[chipmunk stew]

Doesn't Roxdog lobby for the banning of skeptics at LC the moment they show up?I know Zor and jenabell have in the past. Roxdog's actually been pretty tolerant of skeptics, if I remember correctly. That doesn't excuse the fact that he's issuing taunts and challenges from behind locked doors, when he has an active account over here.

[Abbyas]

Gravy, I don't know how comfortable you would be, but I would pay money to hear you on his podcast.

At the same time, good lord, why is this so important to these people? Shouldn't they be trying to find a single structural engineer who agrees with them? Or do they expect that some high up government official will listen to this guys internet cast and finally justice will be done!

These people don't care about a new investigation, they care about "pwnage".

[chipmunk stew]

Gravy, I don't know how comfortable you would be, but I would pay money to hear you on his podcast.

At the same time, good lord, why is this so important to these people? Shouldn't they be trying to find a single structural engineer who agrees with them? Or do they expect that some high up government official will listen to this guys internet cast and finally justice will be done!

These people don't care about a new investigation, they care about "pwnage".I would pay money to hear that, too. But only under mutually agreeable terms.

Hey, Roxdog! Since you have an active account over here, come negotiate some terms, instead of lobbing mudballs from your treehouse--"NO SKEPTIKZ ALLOWD".

[dubfan]

All the details have been posted. ONE person said they MIGHT come on. We emailed each other and it ended up he was busy until halfway through my show. So, I told him he could come on then and have not heard from him since.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5683&view=findpost&p=5094450

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

That lying sack of ****.

[XXX]

These people don't care about a new investigation, they care about "pwnage".

Ok, I have to admit, I'm not familiar with this internet lingo.

What does "pwnage" (or "pwned") mean? Is that like "owned"?

[Bronze Dog]

Yes. It's a deliberate typo of "ownage," since O and P are right next to each other on most keyboards.

[CptColumbo]

Ok, I have to admit, I'm not familiar with this internet lingo.

What does "pwnage" (or "pwned") mean? Is that like "owned"?

Put Well North After General Electric?

[dubfan]

Gravy, I don't know how comfortable you would be, but I would pay money to hear you on his podcast.

The cage match *I* want to see is Gravy vs. Dylan.

[Gravy]

Now, people. You don't really believe that more information can be disseminated in a few minutes of a podcast that few will ever hear, than can be disseminated here – and that will remain here – for thousands to see, do you?

Roxdog, do you believe that? This is a forum where thousands of people will see your clear thinking and solid evidence. What are you waiting for? All we ask is that you not dump pages of links and then run away.

Oh, and an apology for your rudeness wouldn't hurt.

[Abbyas]

What does "pwnage" (or "pwned") mean? Is that like "owned"?

Yes, I just learned about it recently actually. It comes from a typo in an old computer game. It means "owned". Which apparantly is much more important than avenging the deaths of thousands.

[sat556]

What exactly does 'owned' mean?

[dubfan]

What exactly does 'owned' mean?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=owned

[Gravy]

What exactly does 'owned' mean?
It means the claimant is a moron.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1570302&postcount=125

[sat556]

Oh I seeeee! Ffs.

[Mr. Skinny]

While looking at the LC forum from a link someone provided, I read a post there that suggested that DJLegacy and Gravy be allowed to debate in a closed thread (so to speak) and that anyone who posted there other than Gravy and DJ would have their post deleted. (or something like that)

They seemed to fear a pile on by JREF folks, and I can't really blame them, in a way. Also, I think a thread like this might be interesting.

Thoughts?

[WildCat]

While looking at the LC forum from a link someone provided, I read a post there that suggested that DJLegacy and Gravy be allowed to debate in a closed thread (so to speak) and that anyone who posted there other than Gravy and DJ would have their post deleted. (or something like that)

They seemed to fear a pile on by JREF folks, and I can't really blame them, in a way. Also, I think a thread like this might be interesting.

Thoughts?
Hehe, I'd love to see that! Gravy would eat that yahoo for lunch. Not that the yahoo would realize it, of course. I really doubt he'd do anything else the other LC morons haven't done - just come here, post a bunch of Jeff King, Steven Jones, Alex Jones nonsense, ignore all questions asked of them, and then run away.

If the Loosers had any brains or critical thinking ability, they'd wonder why no structural engineer on the planet supports them, and why their TRUTH experts (http://www.911revealingthetruth.org/) consist of Reiki practitioners, dream interpreters, college dropouts, etc.

If the subject wasn't so serious, it would be funny.

[Mr. Skinny]

Well, that's kind of why I'm thinking it would be a good idea. It might condense a lot of the data from both the LC and the JREF forum into a smaller thread that would state the postiions of the two posters into something more readable and understandable.

I'd like it to be as neutral a meeting point as possible, given that the thread might be here on JREF turf, but I think anything said there should be attributable to only either Gravy or DJLegacy, rather than the JREF or the LC forums.

Eta remove a double word usage.

[dubfan]

Roxdog, you are a despicable liar (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&view=findpost&p=5097964). My account is suspended at LC, but I know you're reading this, so I'm going to do a little recap -- right here, in public -- for you.

Rox initially invited me to go on his radio show and asked me to email him for details. I did. Here is the record of that email exchange:

Email 1: dubfan to Roxdog

From: dubfan
Mailed-By: gmail.com
To: roxdog@gmail.com
Date: May 5, 2006 10:27 AM
Subject: Radio show

Roxdog: as I replied at the LC Lounge, I'm happy to come on your radio show.

With all due respect, though, I think a better, more entertaining show would be to have a debate between "Gravy" (from the JREF skeptics forum) and Dylan Avery.

Regards,

Email 2: Roxdog's reply

From: Concerned Citizen <roxdog@gmail.com>
Mailed-By: gmail.com
To: dubfan
Date: May 5, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Radio show

Great man. You can come on next Tuesday night or the week after that if it's better for you. Gravy should contact Dylan. I can get them both on if they are willing and want to do it on my show.

Cheers,

Rox

Email 3: dubfan's reply to Roxdog

From: dubfan
Mailed-By: gmail.com
To: Concerned Citizen <roxdog@gmail.com>
Date: May 5, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Radio show

Can you do any other night besides Tuesdays? I have commitments from 7-9:30PM (EDT) on 5/9, 5/16, and 5/23. The first Tues. evening that's clear for me is 5/30.

I am in Orlando, btw. Where are you? I'm assuming this will be a phone interview?

Note: I asked a question at the end of this email. I have yet to receive a reply from Roxdog. This is the sum total of our email correspondence to date.

The next thing that happened was Roxdog accused me of "not getting back to him" (much like he's doing now). I told him to check his mail, that I *had* in fact gotten back with him, and if he would kindly provide the call-in phone number and answer a couple of questions (who else would be on that night, and what specific aspect of 9/11 he'd like to discuss), I'd be happy to appear on his show.

That reply was made in this post: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3343&view=findpost&p=4270100, which has now either been archived or deleted, or something. When I attempt to follow the link, I'm kicked out to the LC Forum login page, and since my account is suspended, I can't access it. The important thing to note: I responded to Roxdog, agreed -- AGAIN -- to be on the show if only he'd provide details, and (again) he did not respond.

He accused me a SECOND time of not responding to him here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4772&view=findpost&p=4667424

and I called him on this second lie here, two posts down:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4772&view=findpost&p=4669313

Now, he has the gall to accuse me a THIRD time of not responding to him here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&view=findpost&p=5097964

I don't know what more he wants. I've emailed him and received no response to my questions. I responded to him on the boards -- TWICE -- and received no response. And now he's lying a third time about the whole sequence of events -- knowing that my account over there is suspended and I can't respond to him -- and saying that I "never got back to him".

He is a blatant liar and he damn well knows it.

[Gravy]

Roxdog, you are a despicable liar (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&view=findpost&p=5097964). My account is suspended at LC, but I know you're reading this, so I'm going to do a little recap -- right here, in public -- for you.
Well, Roxdog? You have an account here. Why not explain why you're accusing dubfan of avoiding you?

I know from personal experience that you're not big on apologies, but, really, isn't it time to be a man?

[WildCat]

Well, Roxdog? You have an account here. Why not explain why you're accusing dubfan of avoiding you?

I know from personal experience that you're not big on apologies, but, really, isn't it time to be a man?
He claims he forgot the password for the conspiracybeliever account, and apparently he's too stupid to follow simple instructions to make his own.

[WildCat]

Oh and BTW Roxdog, none of the mods or admins here will post your IP info like the scum over at LC do when they get their butts handed to them in an argument. Quite a group you guys have over there. :rolleyes:

[WildCat]

Aw look! DJLegacy is crying about my post!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5730
:D

eta: These morons think Randi is a ghost hunter! This is the kind of reading comprehension that makes them so gullible to the CT nonsense.

[Apollyon]

"My first issue with JREF is that most of them appear to be very poor thinkers. This over-emphsis on critical thinking at the expense of other types of thinking such as creative and lateral thinking."

More proof that CT is not necessarily an acronym for critical thinking. It could be Creative Thinking. Or even Crazy Train.

[Pidge]

What exactly does 'owned' mean?

Clearly you are not a "gamer".

133t sk1||z (*) are required to understand the concept of "pwned" (+), and how to "pwn".

Or have the mental development of a adolescent male with too much free time to play online on his xbox/ps2/gamer pc.

I'm not sure which is correct. It could be both...

(*) "elite skills"
(+) may also be presented as "PVVN3D"

[delphi_ote]

Clearly you are not a "gamer".

133t sk1||z (*) are required to understand the concept of "pwned" (+), and how to "pwn".

Or have the mental development of a adolescent male with too much free time to play online on his xbox/ps2/gamer pc.

I'm not sure which is correct. It could be both...

(*) "elite skills"
(+) may also be presented as "PVVN3D"
But never, ever mention

OMFG!!11 t0T@1 pvvn3d@9ez0r2 n00B!!111!!!!11one!!!

or ninjas will murder you in your sleep.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

But never, ever mention

OMFG!!11 t0T@1 pvvn3d@9ez0r2 n00B!!111!!!!11one!!!

or ninjas will murder you in your sleep.

lol! zomgwtfbbq! n3wb! roflcopter! lollerskates!

[RandFan]

Clearly you are not a "gamer".

133t sk1||z (*) are required to understand the concept of "pwned" (+), and how to "pwn".

Or have the mental development of a adolescent male with too much free time to play online on his xbox/ps2/gamer pc.

I'm not sure which is correct. It could be both...

(*) "elite skills"
(+) may also be presented as "PVVN3D"I'll stick with the joystick thank you.

[Pidge]

But never, ever mention

OMFG!!11 t0T@1 pvvn3d@9ez0r2 n00B!!111!!!!11one!!!

or ninjas will murder you in your sleep.

Thanks delphi. I'd forgotten "n00b" and "OMFG". Damn, losing my gamer creds.

Back to the topic.

Gravy, the LCer's do raise a valid point about the emotional content and (perceived?) ad homiens. Maybe a co-operative effort could be done to build on your excellent work, provide references for counter-claims or rebuttal evidence which are missing them (if there are any) so as to not repeat one of many mistakes DA has made.

Perhaps a (closed access) Wiki would be useful to set up.

PS Look at the top ranking search on Google for "attack the messenger fallacy"... (http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=attack+the+messenger+fallacy&btnG=Google+Search)

[Pidge]

Gravy, the LCer's do raise a valid point about the emotional content and (perceived?) ad homiens.

Maybe you could provide references that support you when you call DA an idiot, imbecille, deluded, lunatic etc ;)

When I read the guide, all of the direct rebuttal of "evidence" (*) is very well done. However, when I do get to some ad hom or "name calling", I cringe a bit. It seems to detract from the purpose of the guide.

Though I've only got to the end of the first section (Pentagon) so far. (time, time, time)

(*) Calling anything supplied in LCII evidence is a huge injustice to the word.

[Gravy]

DJLegacy AKA "The Truth" on LC forum
He want's me to debate with him...how cute...Aka, he wants to say what he has to say while all of his little buddies back him up and try to attack me and discredit any points I make...

Sounds fair huh?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5683&view=findpost&p=5089694
No, DJ, you only have to respond to me. I promise I won't call you any names. Did I ever? You've been calling me names constantly.

I'm assuming that you can find at least one supportable claim in LC, right? Just bring your facts and sources, and I'll bring mine.

Judging by what you've been saying in every post about me, you'll have no problem putting me – and by extension all of my ghost-hunting bootlicking lackeys – in our places. I'm willing and able to defend my statements. Are you? The honorable choice awaits you.

I will respond to Gravy not because that goofball article does anything to discredit the movement, but because the dude is a complete tool and a hypocrite.

Skeptics use his article like the bible and all it is, is a bunch of garbage. He draws a conclusion is his head then finds unsourced quotes to try to turn the tide his way...just like he blames LC of doing...go figure....

You people blame followers of LC for backing a documentary that "is full of rhetoric and lacks substance"...but yet you all quote Gravy like his article isnt complete ********....

Time for these types of people to be put in their place...Period...You want to discredit Dylan and the group...I'll show you how much ******** your side is as well...

Im not doing this to defend LC, we all admit their are problems with it, this is a about the truth...

Gravy is a hypocritical peice of trash....period.

Clear enough?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=4965896

eta quote

[Gravy]

When I read the guide, all of the direct rebuttal of "evidence" (*) is very well done. However, when I do get to some ad hom or "name calling", I cringe a bit. It seems to detract from the purpose of the guide.
Yes, that's a common and correct criticism. Believe it or not, folks here warned me about the cutting remarks in my first version, so I edited most of them out. Yoiks! I would have done the same with the rest in the past month, but I have a very difficult time forcing myself to wade through the material. I REALLY don't enjoy doing this stuff.

[Regnad Kcin]

Aw look! DJLegacy is crying about my post!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5730
:D

eta: These morons think Randi is a ghost hunter! This is the kind of reading comprehension that makes them so gullible to the CT nonsense.Disgusting. Why is it these days so many are proud to be ignorant asses?

[hellaeon]

While looking at the LC forum from a link someone provided, I read a post there that suggested that DJLegacy and Gravy be allowed to debate in a closed thread (so to speak) and that anyone who posted there other than Gravy and DJ would have their post deleted. (or something like that)

They seemed to fear a pile on by JREF folks, and I can't really blame them, in a way. Also, I think a thread like this might be interesting.

Thoughts?

I suggested this to DJ, im hoping something can be arranged maybe with Darat or we just all agree not to get involved. Darat?

[hellaeon]

Aw look! DJLegacy is crying about my post!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5730
:D

eta: These morons think Randi is a ghost hunter! This is the kind of reading comprehension that makes them so gullible to the CT nonsense.

I must say, I wanted to come to the defence of randi, but its just frustrating to deal with, so I have bitten my tongue. Its just cheap trash talk. Attacking a character to win an arguement is poor, so I am just looking past it.

[Gravy]

I suggested this to DJ, im hoping something can be arranged maybe with Darat or we just all agree not to get involved. Darat?

My suggestion was that he can reply to anyone he wants to, but he only has to reply to me. Why in the world should we make special arrangements for this guy? He has done NOTHING but rudely rail against us. Did we request special treatment on the LC boards? No, we put our arguments up for anyone to debate.

[hellaeon]

My suggestion was that he can reply to anyone he wants to, but he only has to reply to me. Why in the world should we make special arrangements for this guy? He has done NOTHING but rudely rail against us. Did we request special treatment on the LC boards? No, we put our arguments up for anyone to debate.

Your very correct.
I think his main complaint is that our admins wont let him register. I highly doubt this coming from him since his character assassination of all things JREF is hardly tame.

[Hutch]

I'm going to suggest it again, once DJ gets registered and is on-board, several formal threads should be set up to argue a speicific point.

such as:

Resolved: That the destruction of WTC 7 was a controlled demolition

Resolved: That Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon

Resolved: That a Plane crash and fire were not sufficient to coause WTC1 and WTC2 to fail.

Resolved: That Flight 93 did not crash in Pennsylvania.

Those seem to me to be the most debatable points and avoids the more woosih (nuclear weapons! $2.3 Trillion missing!) stuff and allows folks to concentrate on the major issues.

Just my 2 Egyptian pounds worth...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm going to suggest it again, once DJ gets registered and is on-board, several formal threads should be set up to argue a speicific point.

such as:

Resolved: That the destruction of WTC 7 was a controlled demolition

Resolved: That Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon

Resolved: That a Plane crash and fire were not sufficient to coause WTC1 and WTC2 to fail.

Resolved: That Flight 93 did not crash in Pennsylvania.

Those seem to me to be the most debatable points and avoids the more woosih (nuclear weapons! $2.3 Trillion missing!) stuff and allows folks to concentrate on the major issues.

Just my 2 Egyptian pounds worth...


Good grief, don't use formal logic verbage! They'll take it to mean the question is "resolved" in the manner listed, not that it is a proposition.

[CptColumbo]

As I wrote in the LC thread, I seriously doubt that they know what a debate is. I hope they look it up and study past debates, or attend some. Unfortunately, television has given people the wrong idea of how to get a point across. Simply shouting louder than your opponent seems to be the prevailing tactic on the talking head shows, or poisoning the well (which is the favorite on internet sites). It is also my suspicion that they would not be able to stick to one subject, and if someone points it out to them they would call foul and use this as a defense on their website. My hope is that they do come and we can have a lively debate, and both sides will come away a little wiser.

[Kiwiwriter]

As I wrote in the LC thread, I seriously doubt that they know what a debate is. I hope they look it up and study past debates, or attend some. Unfortunately, television has given people the wrong idea of how to get a point across. Simply shouting louder than your opponent seems to be the prevailing tactic on the talking head shows, or poisoning the well (which is the favorite on internet sites). It is also my suspicion that they would not be able to stick to one subject, and if someone points it out to them they would call foul and use this as a defense on their website. My hope is that they do come and we can have a lively debate, and both sides will come away a little wiser.

My copy of "Nazis, Communists, Klansmen, and Others on the Fringe: Political Extremism in America" tells me that one of the many defining features of extremissts is their

"Tendency to use argument by intimidation." Extremists tend to frame their arguments in such a way as to intimidate others into accepting their premises and conclusion. To disagree with them is to "ally oneself with the devil" or to give aid and comfort to the enemy. They use a lot of moralizing and pontificating, and tend to be very judgmental. This shrill, harsh rhetorical style allows them to keep their opponents and critics on the defensive, cuts off troublesome lines of argument, and allows them to define the parameters of the debate."

Written by John George and Laird Wilcox, published by Prometheus Books in 1992, which I think also publishes Jim Randi's stuff, so they are a reliable sauce. Page 58.

So that sums up the LC views (and Holocaust deniers') view of "debate" nicely. They don't want a "debate." They want a "confrontation," preferably on their terms and parameters, so their opponent either explodes, walks off in tears, or converts. The parameters are set such that a skeptic or Holocaust defender's evidence is all ruled as fake. The only terms of truth are those set by the conspiracy theorist or neo-Nazi. It's a rigged game. But extremists also believe that if they don't win a conflict, the situation was merely rigged against them. So they rig right back, as they also belioeve that it's okay to do bad things in the service of a "good thing."

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
Written by John George and Laird Wilcox, published by Prometheus Books in 1992, which I think also publishes Jim Randi's stuff, so they are a reliable sauce. Page 58.

So that sums up the LC views (and Holocaust deniers') view of "debate" nicely. They don't want a "debate." They want a "confrontation," preferably on their terms and parameters, so their opponent either explodes, walks off in tears, or converts. The parameters are set such that a skeptic or Holocaust defender's evidence is all ruled as fake. The only terms of truth are those set by the conspiracy theorist or neo-Nazi. It's a rigged game. But extremists also believe that if they don't win a conflict, the situation was merely rigged against them. So they rig right back, as they also belioeve that it's okay to do bad things in the service of a "good thing."

Like Roxdog's podcast.

[kookbreaker]

Like Roxdog's podcast.

The world needs a good stock word to describe the pathetic little fringe podcasts of the net like Roxdog's. 'Piddlecast', or 'Patheticast', only better.

[Pardalis]

I must say, I wanted to come to the defence of randi, but its just frustrating to deal with, so I have bitten my tongue. Its just cheap trash talk. Attacking a character to win an arguement is poor, so I am just looking past it.

Good posting over there Hellaeon.

[Bronze Dog]

The world needs a good stock word to describe the pathetic little fringe podcasts of the net like Roxdog's. 'Piddlecast', or 'Patheticast', only better.
Maybe "Peacast" ... Or "Peecast."

[Apollyon]

How about "pudcast"? It has the appropriate quality of allusion inherent in it.

[Shrinker]

Pimplecast... small, irritating, inflamed, mostly of concern to teenagers etc...

[Pardalis]

How about "potcast"?

[The_Fire]

"Spewcast"?
"Spitcast"?
"Pewcast"?
"Pisscast"?

ETA:
"Pusscast" sounds nice....

[chipmunk stew]

Dudcast.

[Ducky]

Fact of the matter is Roxdog isn't coming here to debate because he can't control the debate, therefore he can't call foul for getting his ass handed to him by logic and evidence.


What a coward.

[chipmunk stew]

"henhouse", stirring the pot:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5730&view=findpost&p=5119220


FYI:


conspiracybeliever,

Roxdog has forgotten the log-in information that you gave him to log in to the JREF forum.

For some reason, he doesn't want to contact you himself.

Would you please PM him the information again, so he can issue his challenge to the skeptics over there, rather than from the safe distance of this forum?

I see that you logged in this morning, so I know you're still an active member. I'll check to see if you log in again so that I'll know whether you received this message.

I'm going to post this in the Skeptic forum, too, and ask that someone copy it over at the JREF forum as well, just so there's no miscommunication in the future.

Best regards,
henhouse
Would someone from JREF please post this over there? Thanks.

[dubfan]

Rox,

I guess if you keep repeating the lie enough times, people will start to believe it -- is that the strategy here?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5730&view=findpost&p=5121244

And why haven't you addressed exMLRStroop's post here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5603&view=findpost&p=5109663

And knock it off with the "you know my email" fallacy. You know mine too, and any time you care to provide me with the call in number and the answer to the other two questions (who else will be on, and what specific 9/11 subject you want to discuss), I'm ready. I have the entire hour free next Tuesday night.

[Hutch]

dubfan, just linked your "despicable liar" post to a reply to DJLegacy in that thread so everyone can see the evidence--not that it will last there very long...

[dubfan]

dubfan, just linked your "despicable liar" post to a reply to DJLegacy in that thread so everyone can see the evidence--not that it will last there very long...

Thanks Hutch.

[Disco]

"Spewcast"?
"Spitcast"?
"Pewcast"?
"Pisscast"?

ETA:
"Pusscast" sounds nice....

Pussycast, perhaps?

MHB

[DJLegacy2k5]

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages...the LC forums proudly brings to you the #1 9/11 Admin in the WOORRRRLLLLDDD...He is DJ Legacy!

(Crowd Goes Wild)

[The_Fire]

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages...the LC forums proudly brings to you the #1 9/11 Admin in the WOORRRRLLLLDDD...He is DJ Legacy!

(Crowd Goes Wild)
*Quirks an eyebrow*
Ok. Now what do you want to discuss?

[DJLegacy2k5]

You all invited me here with a nice little thread about well...ME....so ummm I just stopped in for the free food and drinks...

[The_Fire]

Good, then perhaps you won't mind providing evidence of where Gravys debunk of the Loose Change is wrong?

[DJLegacy2k5]

Oh dear god....How about the whole first page lmao

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Oh dear god....How about the whole first page lmao

Evidence?

[The_Fire]

Can you provide evidence and instances?

[DJLegacy2k5]

Well let's see:

First off let's find your stance on "critical thinking".

If I said I was planning to egg your house tonite, and then tonite your house get's TP'ed, would I be the major suspect?

[The_Fire]

That have nothing to do with the subject at hand. If you have the evidence to back your assertion that Gravy is wrong, then post it!

[DJLegacy2k5]

If you can't think more openly than the close mind batch of people on here then you will never understand anything, because you try to find something that your small brians can wrap around and close your mind off to anything you don't understand or don't want to understand.

[Pardalis]

DJ, let's start with the first thing in Gravy's paper that you find wrong.

[sat556]

Hi DJ.

I would like to ask you a question. It's not loaded, honest. :D

Is there anything that could make you change your mind on this CT? That would make you believe the official reports?



Edit. Oopsy, sorry, did I pick the wrong thread?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If you can't think more openly than the close mind batch of people on here then you will never understand anything, because you try to find something that your small brians can wrap around and close your mind off to anything you don't understand or don't want to understand.

Critical thinking and scientific methodology are the ultimate in neutral, objective approaches to understanding something. Since they deal with the physical world, they are testable, verifiable/falsifiable, and third-party reproducible. Again, if you want to start a thread on "What is critical thinking?" feel free, but this thread is for discussion of Gravy's critique, and peoples' objections to his critique.

[DJLegacy2k5]

First things first:

Gravy states that Operation Northwoods has no baring on any thoughts of 9/11.

Sure there is no way to say that project Northwoods, itself had anything to do with 9/11. because obviously it didn't, but that is not to say that the people in government that approved the plan before, would not draw up similar plans again later.

I have documented evidence of a man that was a part of a military study in which these men were asked to plan an "attack" that would hijack planes with boxcutters and use explosives to bring down the world trade centers. The EXACT plans that took place on 9/11. Of course the governemnt claimed they wanted this plan so they could make a defense for it, but this man then tells of a back up plan in case these plans were used agianst the USA. This man has taken a lie detector test to prove the validity of his claims.

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com

Check that out, scroll down the left hand side and listen to the Black Op Radio Interview. He goes into details about what exactly happened and how the planning for this went.

As I said before, if I threatened to EGG your house tonite, but your house got TP'ed tonite, don't you still think I would be the main suspect.

To say that none of this would at least make you feel the need to look into government involvement would be rediculous.

[milesalpha]

If you can't think more openly than the close mind batch of people on here then you will never understand anything, because you try to find something that your small brians can wrap around and close your mind off to anything you don't understand or don't want to understand.


Wow, is it me or does this sound suspiciously like the sort of thing a psychic/dowser/homeopath/etc. says when trying to provide pre-made excuses?

[Bronze Dog]

The "closed-minded" thing is just a bunch of Doggerel (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/05/doggerel-4-closed-minded.html) that amounts to little more than a distraction from the issue.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Here, I'll even kick things off:

On http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/lcg2.html, under the second section of comments by Gravy the follow statement is made

Yes, Wittenburg is a pilot. He is also a conspiracy theorist who does not believe that ANY aircraft hit the Pentagon, which makes him stupid or insane. Too bad, because his former co-workers were on that plane. I wonder what he thinks happened to them. He believes a missile hit the Pentagon. He has not produced a single piece of evidence to back that belief. He has not attempted to account for the dozens of eyewitnesses who saw the crash. He also believes that the other 3 flights were not piloted by Arabs, because they wouldn't have the skills. I believe that Russ Wittenburg wouldn't have the skills to be an investigator.
This could be considered an ad hominem attackhttp://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20hominem

[The_Fire]

As I said before, if I threatened to EGG your house tonite, but your house got TP'ed tonite, don't you still think I would be the main suspect.

That fully depends on where the HARD evidence of the event is pointing as your statement in regards to your plans are only anecdotal.

Are there any forensics evidence? Fingerprints? Tracktires? Surveilance videos? Anything at all?

[DJLegacy2k5]

Wow...

No no evidence except I said I was going to do it...and it was recorded and documented.

[60hzxtl]

First things first:

Gravy states that Operation Northwoods has no baring on any thoughts of 9/11.

Sure there is no way to say that project Northwoods, itself had anything to do with 9/11. because obviously it didn't, but that is not to say that the people in government that approved the plan before, would not draw up similar plans again later.

I have documented evidence of a man that was a part of a military study in which these men were asked to plan an "attack" that would hijack planes with boxcutters and use explosives to bring down the world trade centers. The EXACT plans that took place on 9/11. Of course the governemnt claimed they wanted this plan so they could make a defense for it, but this man then tells of a back up plan in case these plans were used agianst the USA. This man has taken a lie detector test to prove the validity of his claims.

.


War games are just that, and LOTS of things get war gamed.

You say that you have " documented evidence of a man that was a part of a military study "

I took Latin in HS. I've yet to speak it to someone.

A study equals guilt?

Geeze! They must be expecting a fire here, they built a fire escape.

I'm going to be in a crash someday - look somebody put seatbelts in my car!

[The_Fire]

Wow...

No no evidence except I said I was going to do it...and it was recorded and documented.
Then it is not evidence merely suspicion.

ETA: *Points one post up. *

[DJLegacy2k5]

If the "study" was asking a group of military men to plan out an attack that used boxcutters to take of planes to fly them into the WTCs and to also use explosives in the process...You don't find that to suggest anything?

[Pardalis]

If the "study" was asking a group of military men to plan out an attack that used boxcutters to take of planes to fly them into the WTCs and to also use explosives in the process...You don't find that to suggest anything?

No.

[The_Fire]

If the "study" was asking a group of military men to plan out an attack that used boxcutters to take of planes to fly them into the WTCs and to also use explosives in the process...You don't find that to suggest anything?
No.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If the "study" was asking a group of military men to plan out an attack that used boxcutters to take of planes to fly them into the WTCs and to also use explosives in the process...You don't find that to suggest anything?

No more so than Tom Clancy having DEBT OF HONOR end with a terrorist flying a plane out of Dulles into the Capital building. It is an example of thinking like the enemy. White hat hackers do this all the time.

[60hzxtl]

If the "study" was asking a group of military men to plan out an attack that used boxcutters to take of planes to fly them into the WTCs and to also use explosives in the process...You don't find that to suggest anything?


It might.

But you might ask why the military ever practices landing on a beach, parachuting onto a mountain, or flying in formation.

Now where is the evidence of explosives?

Not explosions.

Explosives.

Things that go boom might be explosions, but they might not be explosives.

Your can of shaving cream is not an explosive.

But if you put it in the fire, I wouldn't stand too close for fear of being hit with a jagged piece of metal from the explosion.

It suggests a lot of things

[DavidJames]

Wow...

No no evidence except I said I was going to do it...and it was recorded and documented.Was anything about any of this recorded and documented prior to 9/11?

[DJLegacy2k5]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

Its quite sad...If I had a close mind like what you all have, Id probably slit my wrists...Thats a sad way to live.

[60hzxtl]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

Its quite sad...If I had a close mind like what you all have, Id probably slit my wrists...Thats a sad way to live.


With apologies to Pardalis, have you considered Cananda?

They take in refugees.

[DJLegacy2k5]

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com

[DJLegacy2k5]

As I said...This wasnt a plan about hijacked airplanes, it was specifically for the use of boxcutters, airplanes, and explosives.

[SBrown]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

Its quite sad...If I had a close mind like what you all have, Id probably slit my wrists...Thats a sad way to live.

There was a lot of proof.....it was all over the news. They also found some of the hijackers passports and I think they found a few bandannas. They also found a complete copy of the plans and everyones name in some luggage that got misplaces. It is not to hard to see they had all the smoking guns within the first few days. Open and shut case. You need to look up on this subject.:jaw-dropp

[Johnny Pixels]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

No, no-one told me what to BELIEVE, they showed me evidence of what happened, and I looked at it, and came to my own conclusions. If someone told me there were bombs in the builidings I'd look at evidence,videos and the like (as I did when CTs said there were) and I'd see how that statement compared to the evidence.

[XXX]

I do think that their might...but that's not were I'd start out.

There have been several "I was involed with the military" (or "I was a secret agent and I knew") type stories out there, some that come from some real whakos. First thing's first, try to figure out if this guy is a loon, if he really is who he says he is, if he was were he says he was, and if these exersises in question were actually what he claims that they were (like many of the other alledged pre 9/11 exersises that turned out to quite be so ominous).

You'll forgive me if I approach this story with skeptisism.

[60hzxtl]

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com


25 years before?

Passed a poly?

Wow! He knew!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

Its quite sad...If I had a close mind like what you all have, Id probably slit my wrists...Thats a sad way to live.

No, the answers you received to your "egg" scenario are specific to the egg scenario. You said, in your hypothetical, that you said you would egg so-and-sos house, the house was subsequently TP'd, and there is no other evidence available to base your decision upon. This is not analogous to 9/11 as their is ample evidence available for review, analysis; and, if appropropriate, refutation.

Stop with the personal attacks and present some evidence that can be reviewed.

[Pardalis]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...

I believe I can think for myself thank you.

[Johnny Pixels]

As I said...This wasnt a plan about hijacked airplanes, it was specifically for the use of boxcutters, airplanes, and explosives.

That's not bizzarre. Airports check for explosives, so firearms are diffcult to smuggle onto planes. Why carry out an exercise dealing with an event that is unlikely to ever happen?

[DavidJames]

I have documented evidence of a man that was a part of a military study in which these men were asked to plan an "attack" that would hijack planes with boxcutters and use explosives to bring down the world trade centers.

As I said...This wasnt a plan about hijacked airplanes, it was specifically for the use of boxcutters, airplanes, and explosives.Which is it?

[DJLegacy2k5]

All you people do is make excuses....

You lack the ability to connect 2 and 2 to make 4. To you all and Negative times a Negative would NEVER equal a positive...

It's quite sad.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Which is it?


The statement is that is was not for your normal hijacking...it was very specific.

[60hzxtl]

2 and 2 = 4 is based on evidence.

So far, you have not provided evidence.

Just innuendo.

[DavidJames]

All you people do is make excuses....

You lack the ability to connect 2 and 2 to make 4. To you all and Negative times and Negative would NEVER equal a positive...

It's quite sad.As predicted, you've also changed the subject from refuting Gravy's rebuttal to Loose Change.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

All you people do is make excuses....

You lack the ability to connect 2 and 2 to make 4. To you all and Negative times and Negative would NEVER equal a positive...

It's quite sad.

Well, apparently you lack the ability to convey why 2 and 2 should make 4. Here, let me help you out with a little outline

Proposition (this is the claim being made, the more specific the better)
Evidence (this supports the proposition and is factual, and objective)
Counter argument (here is where people opposed to the Proposition make their case, it must also be based on factual, objective evidence)
etc

[Johnny Pixels]

All you people do is make excuses....

You lack the ability to connect 2 and 2 to make 4. To you all and Negative times and Negative would NEVER equal a positive...

It's quite sad.

I agree, I am thick. You'll have to join the dots for me.

[Bronze Dog]

The statement is that is was not for your normal hijacking...it was very specific.
Kind of like how my driver's ed teacher was preparing me for a specific collision because he presumed it would involve an automobile, beer, and someone on a cell phone. Gotcha.

[Kent1]

I have documented evidence of a man that was a part of a military study in which these men were asked to plan an "attack" that would hijack planes with boxcutters and use explosives to bring down the world trade centers.

Could you give me a link to the part about explosives in the towers.
I want to read more.

[Pardalis]

You lack the ability to connect 2 and 2 to make 4.

You see, we lack the paranoia needed to make these arbitrary connections you are making.

[DJLegacy2k5]

First off I dont work on your alls time...

Second off, I'll mosey on through these topics as I see fit...

Do I really care what a bunch of close minded skeptics think?...No. lmao

I came here for some entertainment, and Im getting it :-)

Along with free Pie and Chips.

[sat556]

Hang on... The plan says explosives. The towers didn't have explosives.
One thing only works if the other is true. If one is false then the other is irrelevant.

[Bronze Dog]

There he goes again about "closed-minded (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/05/doggerel-4-closed-minded.html)" despite doing nothing to test our open-mindedness. He's just assuming we're closed-minded a priori so that he can have an excuse when he fails to present evidence.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, apparently you lack the ability to convey why 2 and 2 should make 4. Here, let me help you out with a little outline

Proposition (this is the claim being made, the more specific the better)
Evidence (this supports the proposition and is factual, and objective)
Counter argument (here is where people opposed to the Proposition make their case, it must also be based on factual, objective evidence)
etc

Actual, found a great example of why it is important to present evidence. Here is info on the mathematical proof that "2+2=4":

2 + 2 = 4 Trivia

We used to think that if we knew one, we knew two, because one and one are two. We are finding that we must learn a great deal more about `and'.
—Sir Arthur Eddington

The complete proof of a theorem all the way back to axioms can be thought of as a tree of subtheorems, with the steps in each proof branching back to earlier subtheorems, until axioms are ultimately reached at the tips of the branches. An interesting exercise is, starting from a theorem, to try to find the longest path back to an axiom. Trivia Question: What is the longest path for the theorem 2 + 2 = 4? Orange julia butterfly with 2+2=4 dots. Credit: N. Megill 2004. Public domain.

Trivia Answer: The longest path back to an axiom from 2 + 2 = 4 is 132 levels deep! By following it you will encounter a broad range of interesting and important set theory results along the way. You can follow them by drilling down this path. Or you can start at the bottom and work your way up, watching mathematics unfold from its axioms.

2p2e4 (2+2=4) <- 2cn <- 2re <- readdcl <- axaddrcl <- addresr <- 0idsr <- addsrpr <- enrer <- addcanpr <- ltapr <- ltaprlem <- ltexpri <- ltexprlem7 <- ltaddpr <- addclpr <- addclprlem2 <- addclprlem1 <- ltrpq <- recclpq <- recidpq <- recmulpq <- mulcompq <- dmmulpq <- mulclpq <- mulpipq <- enqer <- mulasspi <- nnmass <- omass <- odi <- om00el <- om00 <- omword1 <- omwordi <- omword <- omord2 <- omordi <- oaword1 <- oaword <- oacan <- oaord <- oaordi <- oalim <- rdglim2a <- rdglim2 <- rdglimt <- rdglim <- rdgfnon <- tfr1 <- tfrlem13 <- tfrlem12 <- tfrlem11 <- tfrlem9 <- tfrlem7 <- tfrlem5 <- tfrlem2 <- tfrlem1 <- tfis2 <- tfis2f <- tfis <- tfi <- onsst <- ordsson <- ordeleqon <- onprc <- ordon <- ordtri3or <- ordsseleq <- ordelssne <- tz7.7 <- tz7.5 <- wefrc <- epfrc <- epel <- epelc <- brab <- brabg <- opelopabg <- opabid <- opex <- prex <- zfpair <- 0inp0 <- 0nep0 <- snnz <- snid <- snidb <- snidg <- elsncg <- dfsn2 <- unidm <- uneqri <- elun <- elab2g <- elabg <- elabgf <- vtoclgf <- hbeleq <- hbel <- hbeq <- hblem <- eleq1 <- eqeq2 <- eqeq1 <- bibi1d <- bibi2d <- imbi1d <- imbi2d <- pm5.74d <- pm5.74 <- anim12d <- prth <- imp4b <- imp4a <- impexp <- imbi1i <- impbi <- bi3 <- expi <- expt <- pm3.2im <- con2d <- con2 <- nega <- pm2.18 <- pm2.43i <- pm2.43 <- pm2.27 <- com12 <- syl <- a1i <- ax-1

The list above was produced by typing the commands "read set.mm" then "show trace_back 2p2e4 /essential /count_steps" in the Metamath program. By the way, the complete proof of 2 + 2 = 4 involves 2,109 subtheorems including these. (The command "show trace_back 2p2e4 /essential" will list them.) These have a total of 22,607 steps — this is how many steps you would have to examine if you wanted to verify the proof by hand in complete detail all the way back to the axioms.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html#trivia

[DavidJames]

First off I dont work on your alls time...

Second off, I'll mosey on through these topics as I see fit...

Do I really care what a bunch of close minded skeptics think?...No. lmao

I came here for some entertainment, and Im getting it :-)

Along with free Pie and Chips.This is a thread dedicated to proving Gravy wrong. Are you going to contribute?

[DJLegacy2k5]

Paranoia?...

I had never followed government or conspiracies before 9/11. I could have honestly cared less...

But anyone who can watch what happened that day and say the planned it in a cave, and pulled off their plans the way they did...Are nutjobs.

there was no paranoia because I hadn't exposed myself to it, so I had nothing to be pananoid about...

You people make me sick...

I feel bad for everyone who died on 9/11 and you all choose to turn a blind eye to finding out what really happened to them. "CT'ers at least want to know what happened, they care more than someone who is just going to turn their back and make excuses to go with the official story...WHICH THE NIST ADMITS IS JUST A THEORY!

[DJLegacy2k5]

I'll contribute when I see fit...I mean you all did make it 3 pages long before I showed up, so I figure you can go on for a little while while I eat my chicken and laugh at your mindset's.

[Bronze Dog]

But anyone who can watch what happened that day and say the planned it in a cave, and pulled off their plans the way they did...Are nutjobs.
What? I suppose next you're going to tell me humans can't do a simple thing like crop circles or pyramids.

I feel bad for everyone who died on 9/11 and you all choose to turn a blind eye to finding out what really happened to them.

So why are you being so mute about it?

[Johnny Pixels]

I feel bad for everyone who died on 9/11 and you all choose to turn a blind eye to finding out what really happened to them. "CT'ers at least want to know what happened, they care more than someone who is just going to turn their back and make excuses to go with the official story...WHICH THE NIST ADMITS IS JUST A THEORY!

I feel bad too. How is the official story wrong? How is Gravy's debunk wrong?

[Harlequin]

25 years before?

Passed a poly?

Wow! He knew!

Look at the questions he was asked. There's very little detail.
Boxcutters mentioned in the polygraph? No
World Trade Center mentioned in the polygraph? No
Use of fake/real bombs mentioned in the polygraph? No
Anything on the size of plane, departure location, destination, number of people involved, pentagon, or even any useful specifics at all? No.

I'd say this guy took part in a reasonable "what-if" kind of scenario. Perhaps he just "remembers" a few things "more accurately" now...

[DJLegacy2k5]

Perhaps

Perhaps everything you every thought you knew about anything is WRONG...

[Apollyon]

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com
I smell something worse than fishyness. This guy claims this "study" supposedly took place between 1975 -1976. Yet in one part of his affidavid he claims the following, and I quote:

One day Lt. Teague asked what type of Politcal Climate the Country would be in when this Attack would take place (?) and we came up with "Hamstringing" that is when one political party sets up the incoming Adminsitration with a disaster to happen. When asked who might do this (?) one of the participants that I was not allowed to see answered. When Lt. Teague asked me what I thought: I did an imperonation of Bill Clinton as a boy shaking Kennedy's hand, like in the picture that ran in the newspapers of him doing this and said that I went along with it and would wait and see if his answer was correct; It was!

I made an agreement that the person who named the "Suspect Person" that I would allow him to make the name public first; in my Western Washington University Presentation I presented a question about this person and named his wife Hilary Rodham - Clinton so someone from the audience could say his name to comply with my agreement not to say his name first in public and that it has been I will tell you; it was Bill Clinton.

Excuse me. Maybe I'm confused by the terrible grammar and spelling, not something I'd expect of a supposedly brilliant military operative with almost 30 years of experience. But is this guy claiming he was claravoyant or something? He accused Bill Clinton of doing this when he was in a study waaaayy back in the mid-70s?

That's just amazing.

Sounds like absolute bunk as well. DJ. You should vet your sources a bit better before puting them out there. This one stinks to high heaven.

[Pardalis]

Perhaps

Perhaps everything you every thought you knew about anything is WRONG...

Now what is that if not paranoia?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Paranoia?...

I had never followed government or conspiracies before 9/11. I could have honestly cared less...

[nitpick] The phrase is "I could not have cared less." Your phrase indicates it would be possible for you to care less.


But anyone who can watch what happened that day and say the planned it in a cave, and pulled off their plans the way they did...Are nutjobs.

Argument to personal incredulity.

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, or alternately that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

Both arguments commonly share this structure: a person erroneously regards the lack of evidence for one view (or alternately, regards their personal bias against the view) as constituting evidence or proof that another view is instead true. In reality this is not valid evidence or proof, as further described below. The types of fallacies discussed in this article should not be confused with the reductio ad absurdum method of argument, in which a valid logical contradiction of the form "A and not A" is used to disprove a premise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


...
You people make me sick...

Noted.


I feel bad for everyone who died on 9/11 and you all choose to turn a blind eye to finding out what really happened to them. "CT'ers at least want to know what happened, they care more than someone who is just going to turn their back and make excuses to go with the official story

False dichotemy. There is no reason why a person who has come to the decision that the OV is correct can not also feel bad about the people who died that day. It is also false to claim that just because someone has come to a different conclusion than you means they are not interested in the actualities of the events that occurred.


...WHICH THE NIST ADMITS IS JUST A THEORY!
Theory -- A well-supported and well-tested hypothesis or set of hypotheses. It isn't just a wild guess. A theory, as used in science and forensics, is based upon evidence and has gone through the rigors of review.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Perhaps

Perhaps everything you every thought you knew about anything is WRONG...

Let's not turn this thread into a discussion of solipism or nihilism, we've got a whole subforum for philosophy and religion.

[Bronze Dog]

Perhaps

Perhaps everything you every thought you knew about anything is WRONG...
Perhaps...
Perhaps my blog partner's [hiney] gnomes are real. (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2005/07/where-do-you-draw-line.html)

Less hypothetical stuff, more real world stuff, please.

[aggle-rithm]

Perhaps

Perhaps everything you every thought you knew about anything is WRONG...

True. That's why it makes sense to assume that the simplest explanation -- the one with the fewest number of unknown entities -- is the correct one, until better evidence comes along.

Believing a conspiracy requires the existence of all the evidence that led to the "official" story, as well as a bunch of assumed unknowns that merely complicate the issue. Too complicated, and therefore highly unlikely to be correct.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Maybe your paranoia is the fact that you feel pananoia exists...therefore you need to find answers so that you feel you have suppressed the pananoia which doesn't accually exist and it is just a mental block you have against learning things that you do not understand.

[milesalpha]

I have been labouring to read through this "agent's" (he hasn't explained how he became an agent so far) site and there are a lot of things that are giving me pause (ignoring the atrocious use of the English language, apparently agents don't have to learn how to write). Just a few notes on my first scan through.
First, he claims it was he who suggested the 'box knife" idea, in response to a question from a Sergeant on what types of weapons to use.
Second, he notes letters of support from Canadian officials. Carolyn Parrish may be known to some Americans. She is the Liberal MP backbencher who called Bush a moron (as well as numerous other anti-American tantrums) and was expelled from the liberal caucus. she did not run for re-election. Minster of Defense McCallum's letter is a standard form letter. The others are e-mails.
Third, there is simply no documentation here. Absolutely nothing that would serve as an independent confirmation of any of his assertions.
Fourth, I don't find anything that indicates he supports a CT theory beyond the LIHOP idea, suggesting incompetence, not conspiracy.
Fifth, the polygraph lends credence to his belief in his claims, not necessarily the claims themselves. Most christians would pass a polygraph on the existence of god, but this would hardly serve as evidence of anything but their belief.

I think i'll go try and some mention of this study, should be some sort of congressional record on it.

[Pardalis]

Maybe your paranoia is the fact that you feel pananoia exists...therefore you need to find answers so that you feel you have suppressed the pananoia which doesn't accually exist and it is just a mental block you have against learning things that you do not understand.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Johnny Pixels]

Maybe your paranoia is the fact that you feel pananoia exists...therefore you need to find answers so that you feel you have suppressed the pananoia which doesn't accually exist and it is just a mental block you have against learning things that you do not understand.

Maybe you're stalling for time because you don't have anything of any substance to post.

[Bronze Dog]

Maybe your paranoia is the fact that you feel pananoia exists...therefore you need to find answers so that you feel you have suppressed the pananoia which doesn't accually exist and it is just a mental block you have against learning things that you do not understand.
Or maybe your incessant bad psychology games convinced us that CTers have no evidence.

[XXX]

Exactly my point...You all have no proof of anything that went on on 9/11....except someone TOLD you what to believe...If they had said "bombs blew up in the buildings" you all would say "yeah I see that, look at all the reports of explosions"...you wouldnt be trying to DISPROVE something that you cant understand...

Its quite sad...If I had a close mind like what you all have, Id probably slit my wrists...Thats a sad way to live.

OK, so no one ever "told' you that there might have been explosives in the building, you came to that conclusion all by yourself prior to any suggestion?

Just because someone believes the official version of 9/11 is more truthful than the conspiracy versions do not make one close minded. You may want to think that you have to go against the crowd in order to be open minded, but that's not true. You are pigenholing people.

You say we lack the ability to make the connections, but many times people (especially conspiracy theorists) only make the connections that support what they want. There better be a lot more dots to connect in order to prove the things that you guys are saying, not to mention that there are "dots" on the other side as well that you ignore.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

I think he is suggesting we are suffering from a form of displacement.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Do you really think I came here to debate a whole site full of scared little kids?

I came here out of sheer boredom till Gravy and Dubfan get their scared asses to go on a "small little internet radio show" so they dont have their Ninja team to come in with all of this BS lol

I told you Im just here for the Free Pie and Chips...maybe some Kool Aid.

[Pardalis]

I think he is suggesting we are suffering from a form of displacement.

I'm afraid this is going to lead to some kind of "frontal lobe" theory again. If so I'm going to freak out!

[DJLegacy2k5]

I beleive my Pananoia Theory could be a reason for you alls behavior, or it could be group hysteria.

[60hzxtl]

I beleive my Pananoia Theory could be a reason for you alls behavior, or it could be group hysteria.


Pot

Kettle

[SBrown]

Why are you guys hanging on every word this tin foil hat wearing CT'er is saying? I do not understand this forum.

[Bronze Dog]

Do you really think I came here to debate a whole site full of scared little kids?
No. You came here to post cookie-cutter doggerel to make yourself feel big. Debate would require evidence, which you don't have.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Do you really think I came here to debate a whole site full of scared little kids?

I came here out of sheer boredom till Gravy and Dubfan get their scared asses to go on a "small little internet radio show" so they dont have their Ninja team to come in with all of this BS lol

I told you Im just here for the Free Pie and Chips...maybe some Kool Aid.

So, you have no evidence; and can't present a convincing argument; so you came here to just troll and throw around personal insults? Way to forward your cause.

[DJLegacy2k5]

No I will take the debate to a LIVE broadcast so as to not have 90 little ninjas bothering the posts...and you all wont have the LC board bothering you on there, solves all of the problems...

Tin Foil Hat...hmmm shows how very close minded and pathetic some of you are...Tin Foil hats are references to aliens and/or mind control neither of which I study or look into.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Why are you guys hanging on every word this tin foil hat wearing CT'er is saying? I do not understand this forum.

You haven't met Claus yet have you? We look like puppies nipping at heels compared to Claus' pitbull like tenacity.

As to why? Same reason we still talk to Iacchus (when he's not suspended), hammegk, and others. Intellectual sparring.

[DJLegacy2k5]

So, you have no evidence; and can't present a convincing argument; so you came here to just troll and throw around personal insults? Way to forward your cause.


Wow I didnt see this done on the LC forums dozens of times...

Hi Pot Im Kettle...

You guys can dish it out but cant take it?

[Johnny Pixels]

Do you really think I came here to debate a whole site full of scared little kids?

Translation: I came here for a debate but I realised I don't have anything to go on.

I came here out of sheer boredom till Gravy and Dubfan get their scared asses to go on a "small little internet radio show" so they dont have their Ninja team to come in with all of this BS lol

Translation: I'm totally out of my depth so I'm backtracking and trying to pretend I'm still cool

I told you Im just here for the Free Pie and Chips...maybe some Kool Aid.

Translation: I've got one joke and I'm sticking with it

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

No I will take the debate to a LIVE broadcast so as to not have 90 little ninjas bothering the posts...and you all wont have the LC board bothering you on there, solves all of the problems...

Tin Foil Hat...hmmm shows how very close minded and pathetic some of you are...Tin Foil hats are references to aliens and/or mind control neither of which I study or look into.

So, you're will to do a live, formal, judged debate on neutral grounds?

[Pardalis]

Why are you guys hanging on every word this tin foil hat wearing CT'er is saying? I do not understand this forum.

It's because people who claim extraordinary things, must be dealt with extraordinary means.

Glad to see you're still around.;)

[Bronze Dog]

No I will take the debate to a LIVE broadcast...
The least honest format for a debate.
Tin Foil Hat...hmmm shows how very close minded and pathetic some of you are...Tin Foil hats are references to aliens and/or mind control neither of which I study or look into.
So, why are your posts structured in exactly the same manner as theirs? They ramble on about our "closed-mindedness" in order to stall having to present cogent arguments.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Sure thing Spanky

[Johnny Pixels]

No I will take the debate to a LIVE broadcast so as to not have 90 little ninjas bothering the posts...and you all wont have the LC board bothering you on there, solves all of the problems...

Translation: I can talk over people on the radio, rather than having to anwers their questions.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wow I didnt see this done on the LC forums dozens of times...

Hi Pot Im Kettle...

You guys can dish it out but cant take it?

This is not the LC forums. If you want to discuss JREF members behavior on those forums, at least do so in a new thread.

[Pardalis]

Once Gravy is back online we should let these two debate this one on one.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Sure thing Spanky
To whom were you replying?

[DJLegacy2k5]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc9.jpg

[XXX]

Of course...come over here and talk about how you were just bored, and that you really don't care what any of us think, that it's just for entertainment. You already setting up your "I don't care" cop-out.

You claim to care about the victims and to be be seeking truth about 9/11, so do that. Present your evidence and try to get at the truth with us.

You might want to stop with the whole "They couldn't have planned this in a cave" and "they couldn't have pulled this off" arguments.

[SBrown]

To whom were you replying?


This whole thread seems to be moving at break neck speed but it is just full of one liners........what is it supose to be about?

[Johnny Pixels]

Hotlinking isn't allowed on this forum

[Pardalis]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc9.jpg

How did you know?

[DJLegacy2k5]

I have been telling people for a while along with Rox that if they would like to debate live without 500 little ninja skeptic n00bz talking about their L33tness and their Pwnage....We can do it, he has a media outlet for it.

You all and your never dieing love for the facts, should have them already and airtight to go debate right?

[DavidJames]

Tin Foil Hat...hmmm shows how very close minded and pathetic some of you are...Tin Foil hats are references to aliens and/or mind control neither of which I study or look into.
All you would have to do to shut us down would be to provide genuine, verifiable evidence of your beliefs, do you have any? Trust me, if you can provide some, things will get pretty quiet, well?

[SBrown]

Hey can we talk about this??

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Chip_Implants/index.html

Who is getting one??:jaw-dropp

[DavidJames]

You all and your never dieing love for the facts, should have them already and airtight to go debate right?The facts have been presented by NIST and others. Gravy has provided facts to refute Loose Change.

Do you have any facts to refute NIST or Gravy?

[treble_head]

*Huntmans sneaks in and ties a tripwire with enpty tin cans around the trhead*


Gaaagh! What the hell? I take a nap for an hour, and I wake up with wire and tin cans tied to me! What the crap is going on?

[DJLegacy2k5]

*sings a song and eats his chicken*

[Johnny Pixels]

*sings a song and eats his chicken*

There you go folks. Conclusive proof of a 9/11 conspiracy. Let's all go home now, and tomorrow we can overthrow the goverment with this stack of evidence.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Im waiting for the Magical Gravy ... (looks at watch)

[XXX]

Chicken, Gravy...I'm getting hungry.

[milesalpha]

Wow I didnt see this done on the LC forums dozens of times...

Hi Pot Im Kettle...

You guys can dish it out but cant take it?

You should have some fun with this. Find a thread over on LC in which a JREF person acted like you have. In which they should have: spent the first 20 odd posts just insulting some other nut; insulted the nature of the forum; insulted people who will not "think" like they do; failed to provide a single cohesive argument (I sure hope your double naught secret agent website wasn't your best) despite repeatedly bragging how easy it would be to do so.

Ah well, at least we have learnt that you are a DJ, it explains a bit to me (due to my age-induced natural hatred of modern music, I can now infer that all that techno-pop has fried your brain cells:D ).

[DJLegacy2k5]

Tater-Tots too!

[dubfan]

Do you really think I came here to debate a whole site full of scared little kids?

I came here out of sheer boredom till Gravy and Dubfan get their scared asses to go on a "small little internet radio show" so they dont have their Ninja team to come in with all of this BS lol

We're not scared of you, boy. I agreed to be on Roxdog's show a MONTH AGO. And it took someone outing THREE of his lies to answer the questions put to him, and he has YET to send me the phone number.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Techno and Pop?...Not exactly...and I don't like all of this new hip hop garbage either...

But it's ok you tried your best to classify waht I do, thank you *cough cough*

[XXX]

Seriously though, so far you have implied that "there's no way THEY could have done this", without backing that statement up (or even elaborating on what exactly you meant), given only one real piece of "evidence" that is being discussed and looked into, and accused everyone of being close minded and unable to "connect" things...oh and told us all that you don't really care what we think and you're just here for entertainment.

And you wounder why it's hard to take you seriously? You're going to have to do better than this.

[kookbreaker]

Im waiting for the Magical Gravy ... (looks at watch)

I waded through three pages of you playing games and trying (badly) to insult everyone. There's nothing you have said that is worthy of a reply. You have produced no evidence, you have argued lame platitudes, you paved yourself a well-worn 'out' to run away back to your hidey-hole, you whined, you complained, you pulled lame stock phrases from your kit o' conspiracy junk, etc. etc.

You're not very good at this, are you?

[Hutch]

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com

OK, I read it. Obviously confirming his story will assist in your favor.

The DD Form 214 is a valid form, been around since forever in the Military, but the copy posted is hard to read (and even harder to copy), so I will try an obtain one this week for comparison purposes (noting that forms can change over 20-30 years, but when it comes to the US Army, not by very much.)

Mr. McNiven is very positive that this was a Congressionally mandated study and mentions the words "Congressional Commissioned" more than once in his website. I have therefore inquired of my Congressman if he or his staff could research and find if this study was done and if the results are releaseable to the public. I rather hope he does take me seriously and I will be able to report back to the group(s).

In regards to the "Northwest Drug Task Force" the only references I could find in Google were for local, i.e. state (Montana/Washington) organizations and no independent source tracking back to a DoD Task Force (which I bleieve would be illegal anyway, the US Army is enjoined by law (IIRC) from doing law officer work in the United States, unless directly linked to Military personnel...but I could be wrong.

Based on the above, I am not sure, DJ, that I completely accept the testimony of Mr. McNiven, and will await further information before entertaining the possibility that a 1976 study was an over-arching influence on what happed 25 years later.

[DJLegacy2k5]

You all are still under the impression that I bolted right over here to debate...I will set something up with Gravy when he gets online...I only started posting when I didn to reply to Paul Isaac Jr...Playing Mr stalker again.

[kookbreaker]

You all are still under the impression that I bolted right over here to debate...

While some were optimistic that you would, I had little doubt that you would be just like every other CT'er in the CT sack: Full of platitudes, kook links, weak insinuations, and absolutely no evidence.

[DJLegacy2k5]

While some were optimistic that you would, I had little doubt that you would be just like every other CT'er in the CT sack: Full of platitudes, kook links, weak insinuations, and absolutely no evidence.


Sort of like all you freaks over here that spend your days debating big-foot and evp, that come over to the LC boards to stir the pot?..

[Johnny Pixels]

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages...the LC forums proudly brings to you the #1 9/11 Admin in the WOORRRRLLLLDDD...He is DJ Legacy!

(Crowd Goes Wild)

And yet the #1 9/11 admin has nothing to say on the matter of 9/11? How did you get to be #1 on a subject you refuse to talk about?

[DJLegacy2k5]

I will talk about it, when the single person involved wit hthe topic is here...

I did not come here for an unstructured debate against a group of ninja skeptics.

[Kage]

A flaw in the "I say I'm going to egg your house tonight and it is TPed instead" argument is that in this case they "say" they are going to egg another country 25 years ago and we wake up and a city within our own country is TPed 25 years later.


What the LCers believe is "I said I am going to egg a house in my neighborhood when I was 8" is sufficient evidense to justify my arrest when I am 23 for a burglary that occured in Japan.

[DJLegacy2k5]

Your also thinking on a much smaller scale on the time and effprt that would have to go into coordinating something on that large of a scale.

As far as I can think...It wouldn't be an over night thing.

[Apollyon]

I came here out of sheer boredom till Gravy and Dubfan get their scared asses to go on a "small little internet radio show" so they dont have their Ninja team to come in with all of this BS lol
You're bored?

Great! I guess that means you've nothing else to do and have finished with the incredibily footnoted and diligently researched Gravy debunking that you continually crow about but have yet to produce. (And you've finished up your 4 other simultaneous projects as well.)

So let's see it.

[kookbreaker]

Paranoia?...

I feel bad for everyone who died on 9/11 and you all choose to turn a blind eye to finding out what really happened to them.


I do not. I have listened to what the CTs have said. The difference is: I didn't just stop there. I did other research and foudn out there was a mountain between what the evidence indicated and what the CTs claim

Now, when you accuse us of being close-minded, what you are really doing is whining "Wah! You won't beleive my nonsense". Close minded is a different animal. Keep in mind we are actually listening to what you are saying, even though what you say is junk. The vast, vast, majority of people in this world would glance at your junk and walk away mutter that you should be in the funny farm.


"CT'ers at least want to know what happened,


No, they want to pretend they are super-slueths cracking the world's biggest case. They are living in a fantasy world where they are privy to seekrit nowledge that lets them know things the rest of the world does not.

Sadly, what they 'know' is nonsense.


they care more than someone who is just going to turn their back and make excuses to go with the official story.


Yeah, we have such lame excuses too: "All the evidence points to that conclusion", "Experts in their fields throughout the world agree this is what caused this to happen."and of course "CT'ers haven't got a brain cell with any understanding of science and technology between the lot of them."


..WHICH THE NIST ADMITS IS JUST A THEORY!

I see that the aforementioned brain cell is still missing. You might want to learn a bit about science before you embarass yourself this way: Bush loves guys like you who say 'This is just a theory'. It weakens the basis of scientific foundation and understanding and let's Bush's buddies creep things like 'Intelligent Design' into our schools. Thanks for paving the way with your ignorance.

So you say NIST's work is 'just a theory'? Well, it happens to be a theory based on the hundreds of experts, all of whom are drawing 100 to 3000 years worth of engineering experience in their respective. That give NIST the kind of 'theory' status in the same realm as the theory of gravity. Or do you consider gravity to be a plot by Bush as well?

[DJLegacy2k5]

You're bored?

Great! I guess that means you've nothing else to do and have finished with the incredibily footnoted and diligently researched Gravy debunking that you continually crow about but have yet to produce. (And you've finished up your 4 other simultaneous projects as well.)

So let's see it.

Yes 4 projects are underway...Sorry Im not going to be Gravy who looks for anything that might work for his arguement, kind of, sort of, and then add personal opinion to finihs up trying to make my point. Real research takes time.

And Ive only been talking about it for 2 weeks tops.

[Johnny Pixels]

I will talk about it, when the single person involved wit hthe topic is here...

I did not come here for an unstructured debate against a group of ninja skeptics.

Start a new thread while you are waiting. You pick the topic, structured debate ensues. Everyone stays on topic, anyone who doesn't, you simply ignore. Magic eh? Or doesn't the world's #1 9/11 admin know enough about 9/11 to debate it?

[kookbreaker]

Sort of like all you freaks over here that spend your days debating big-foot and evp, that come over to the LC boards to stir the pot?..

No, we provide evidence. You won't recognize what evidence is 9 times out of 10, but we provide it.

[DJLegacy2k5]

I don't know a single thing...

Obviously why I am stalling...

Not that I said several times on the LC boards that I would not take part in a 50 person debate with all of JREF trying to team up.

I said I would come here to set somethign up with Gravy and handle things from there///for now im just passing the time....DAMN IT THE SIMPSONS ARE ON!

[Kent1]

You all are still under the impression that I bolted right over here to debate...I will set something up with Gravy when he gets online...I only started posting when I didn to reply to Paul Isaac Jr...Playing Mr stalker again.

Speaking of him, whats up? I had read an article stating that he thought 9/11 was an inside job. Yet other things I've seen show something quite different.
OH Nevermind....