My aunt fell for spam...

[Dark Jaguar]

Someone who I thought had a better head on her shoulders... She's now out $3200, and the bank is not doing a thing to help her. At any rate, from what little I've heard of the email she got, it was that nigerian royalty scam. :jaw-dropp

Yeah, you wonder exactly who could fall for such a thing, but apparently my aunt can. Pretty sad story really, but at the very least I hope she's learned something. Thing is, she always seemed one of the smarter people in my family.

[Kiwiwriter]

Don't feel so bad...the 419 ring is the third-largest industry in Nigeria, the first being oil, the second being something in agriculture, I forget what.

All kinds of people of high rank get conned by them. All the time. At least your aunt didn't fly to Nigeria to get her money...she might have been kidnapped, beaten, and killed.

There are several good web pages of people who devote their lives to harassing and hounding 419ers, driving them berserk. Some of them even squeeze money out of the con men, or get them to pose with signs that read "I am a plonk artist" or "I am a doofus" and so on. Hilarious stuff. These clever guys make con men think they're on line with James T. Kirk, John Wayne, Princess Margaret, and keep them believing for months and years that they will get their payday...it drives them to distraction.

www.scamorama.com is the best for those.

Sorry about your aunt.

[tkingdoll]

I am also sorry to hear your aunt got scammed, although I have fairly limited sympathy for victims of these Nigerian emails because the emails usually make it fairly obvious that the person receiving it is being asked to do something illegal, or something to get around Nigerian laws, for which they will receive a cut of the illicit booty. That's why the banks don't tend to do much - you give up your account details freely because you think you can make a fast buck from something dodgy.

Lesson learned, I guess, but it's a shame she had to learn the hard way.

[Meffy]

www.scamorama.com is the best for those.
Another's www.sweetchillisauce.com (warning [or enticement as the case may be]: ribald, not politically correct)

Sorry about your aunt.
Me too, and I ought to temper what I said in another thread... hem, hem...

[Piscivore]

I recently got a 419 fax that offered not just money, but free gas as a bonus.

Sign of the times.

[JamesDillon]

There was a good article about the 419 scam in the New Yorker recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact

Sounds like your aunt is lucky to have only lost $3200.

[Dark Jaguar]

Indeed. At first when my mom was describing it to me she misspoke and said $32000, which is certainly much worse. At least this can be paid off, but she isn't exactly well to do so it'll be a bit of a struggle, but that's what family is for.

By the way, yes the bank is doing little because she was skirting the law. In her defense, she saw absolutly no problem in breaking some OTHER country's laws because, under the same impression I was under, she thought that the only laws an AMERICAN should ever have to pay attention to, until they are physically in some other country, is their own. She had no idea she was obligated to obey other nation's laws while dealing with other people online.

[tkingdoll]

By the way, yes the bank is doing little because she was skirting the law. In her defense, she saw absolutly no problem in breaking some OTHER country's laws because, under the same impression I was under, she thought that the only laws an AMERICAN should ever have to pay attention to, until they are physically in some other country, is their own. She had no idea she was obligated to obey other nation's laws while dealing with other people online.

So by that logic you could hire a hitman in Nigeria over the internet to kill a person also in Nigeria?

[Dark Jaguar]

I'm not saying it was GOOD logic, but that's the impression she (and I, up until this point) was under. However, it's illegal to kill people under American law, and I was under the impression America's laws don't stipulate the nationality, that it's illegal for an American to kill anyone. I'm sure you could find a better example though, like I dunno, pirating from another country not protected by US copyright law.

[tkingdoll]

I'm not saying it was GOOD logic, but that's the impression she (and I, up until this point) was under. However, it's illegal to kill people under American law, and I was under the impression America's laws don't stipulate the nationality, that it's illegal for an American to kill anyone. I'm sure you could find a better example though, like I dunno, pirating from another country not protected by US copyright law.

There are some laws that aren't enforceable in other countries, but this isn't one of them. The killing analogy is apt, because what the Nigerian scams tend to request would also be illegal in America if they happened to be run by a guy in Texas instead (although of course there are various versions so it does depend which your aunt received). The lost funds are often given freely because the scammers request money to bribe government or bank officials the get the money out of the country - which of course is a lie but the person giving up the cash thinks they have millions coming so it's a small trade-off.

I recently heard an interview with a Nigerian official who was investigating the scam from their end, he was calling for the people worldwide who fall for the scam to also be prosecuted - a bit harsh as they've already been punished by losing their money, but an interesting point. It is pretty disingenous to happily volunteer to break another country's laws, especially if you think your own country's will protect you, so perhaps it should be prosecutable as a deterrent (I don't mean I'd like your aunt to go to prison, of course not, I mean that she may have been less likely to give them money if she knew she could go to prison for it, thereby saving her all this unpleasantness).

[Deus Ex Machina]

Indeed. At first when my mom was describing it to me she misspoke and said $32000, which is certainly much worse. At least this can be paid off, but she isn't exactly well to do so it'll be a bit of a struggle, but that's what family is for.

By the way, yes the bank is doing little because she was skirting the law. In her defense, she saw absolutly no problem in breaking some OTHER country's laws because, under the same impression I was under, she thought that the only laws an AMERICAN should ever have to pay attention to, until they are physically in some other country, is their own. She had no idea she was obligated to obey other nation's laws while dealing with other people online.

While I certainly feel sympathy for you and the others in your family, I have to admit I feel none at all for your aunt. I am constantly amazed at how little it takes for some people to act dishonestly - wave the imagined possibility of a few thousand immoral dollars in some people's face and they will quite happily sell their soul.

Personally I do not think these type of people "learn a lesson" from this sort of thing - maybe they will get a little smarter is all.

[MRC_Hans]

Well, must be the skeptic in me, but the first time I got a Nigeria mail, that must have been at least 10 years ago, my first thought was not "this is probably illegal". It was: "Nobody offers me that amount of money, if there is no risk involved, so it must be a scam". The legality issue was only my second thought, and I can't entirely swear that if I could be convinced no risk was involeved (including the risk of being found out), that I wouldn't at least consider playing. However, since I cannot conceive of a risk-free scheme worth millions (except lottery), that part is rather hypothetical.

Hans

[JamesDillon]

However, since I cannot conceive of a risk-free scheme worth millions (except lottery), that part is rather hypothetical.

Hans
Since when is the lottery risk-free? It's the riskiest investment out there!

[geni]

I'm sure you could find a better example though, like I dunno, pirating from another country not protected by US copyright law.

Stuff from Iran is currently PD in the US.

[Kiwiwriter]

Another's www.sweetchillisauce.com (warning [or enticement as the case may be]: ribald, not politically correct)


Me too, and I ought to temper what I said in another thread... hem, hem...

Yes, I'm familiar with sweetchilisauce. I had a chat with that page's proprietor. He's got it well-organized, and it's a hoot. Highly recommended.

[HeyLeroy]

http://eyeshot.net/lipshitz.html

This is a good friend of mine. His name is Matt, not Xavier, but he's had some fun with these scammers. His fourth book is coming out soon.

[Kiwiwriter]

Well, must be the skeptic in me, but the first time I got a Nigeria mail, that must have been at least 10 years ago, my first thought was not "this is probably illegal". It was: "Nobody offers me that amount of money, if there is no risk involved, so it must be a scam". The legality issue was only my second thought, and I can't entirely swear that if I could be convinced no risk was involeved (including the risk of being found out), that I wouldn't at least consider playing. However, since I cannot conceive of a risk-free scheme worth millions (except lottery), that part is rather hypothetical.

Hans

It came from some guy pretending to be a Nigerian general. The danger for me was that my family was short on money, so for a few seconds I thought, "here is hope." Then I thought, "Wait a second, why is this jerk reaching out to ME, of all people?"

So I hit search under the general's name and learned of the 419 fraud. Since then, I've deleted, junked, or reported such spam. Most of it is hilarious, though.

One guy wrote, "The government is threatening me with levity." Yeah, they surrounded his home with stand-up comedians and loudspeakers.

"These two 419ers walk into a bar..." :D

[Kaylee]

DJ, it seems that you think that your aunt acted out of character:

Someone who I thought had a better head on her shoulders
...
Thing is, she always seemed one of the smarter people in my family.

Just in case, perhaps someone should make sure that she's OK financially (financial stress may have caused her to do something stupid or toss out her values momentarily) or that she isn't in the very early stages of dementia (I understand that can affect judgement). It's rare, but dementia can start early for some people.

I obviously don't know your aunt and this may be very far off base -- but I'd just thought I'd toss that idea out there.

<personal anecdote> As my dad got older, his personal judgement got worse, much worse. </end personal anecdote>

[Almo]

There was a good article about the 419 scam in the New Yorker recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact

Sounds like your aunt is lucky to have only lost $3200.

Wow! Excellent article. :eek: It's really amazing.

[Dark Jaguar]

DJ, it seems that you think that your aunt acted out of character:



Just in case, perhaps someone should make sure that she's OK financially (financial stress may have caused her to do something stupid or toss out her values momentarily) or that she isn't in the very early stages of dementia (I understand that can affect judgement). It's rare, but dementia can start early for some people.

I obviously don't know your aunt and this may be very far off base -- but I'd just thought I'd toss that idea out there.

<personal anecdote> As my dad got older, his personal judgement got worse, much worse. </end personal anecdote>

Well she wasn't what I would call "doing well" financially, to the best of my knowledge she was "afloat", which is basically the standard financial situation of the majority of my family. As for dimentia, my family doesn't have much of a history of mental illness. About the worst of it is mild memory loss from what I understand. Maybe I'm in "couldn't happen to anyone I know" mode, but I don't see much reason to think this is a sign of some form of mental disorder, unless gullibility counts.

[MRC_Hans]

Since when is the lottery risk-free? It's the riskiest investment out there!Yeah, well. It's a small risk. At least the way I'm playing.

Hans

[roger]

There was a good article about the 419 scam in the New Yorker recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact

Sounds like your aunt is lucky to have only lost $3200.Good dog, even after having been convicted on all counts, and packing to go to prison for two years, the man is still hoping that the Nigerians will contact him so they can continue his business deall, and opines that if they sent him a check, he'd deposit it in the bank (which is what got him sent to prison in the first place).

His wife calls him naive. I have a different word.

[geni]

Good dog, even after having been convicted on all counts, and packing to go to prison for two years, the man is still hoping that the Nigerians will contact him so they can continue his business deall, and opines that if they sent him a check, he'd deposit it in the bank (which is what got him sent to prison in the first place).

His wife calls him naive. I have a different word.

Not really. It is hard to admit you were wrong when you invested so much.

[Meffy]

Yeah, well. It's a small risk. At least the way I'm playing.
High risk factor times small investment?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Someone who I thought had a better head on her shoulders... She's now out $3200, and the bank is not doing a thing to help her. At any rate, from what little I've heard of the email she got, it was that nigerian royalty scam. :jaw-dropp


Why should they?

[Kaylee]

Well she wasn't what I would call "doing well" financially, to the best of my knowledge she was "afloat", which is basically the standard financial situation of the majority of my family. As for dimentia, my family doesn't have much of a history of mental illness.


Oh, by dementia, I didn't mean mental illness. I just meant that some older people as they age get more prone to memory loss and taking longer to remember things or reason things out. It seems to me that quit a few of them come to conclusions they wouldn't have when they were just a little younger, perhaps because it takes does take them longer to reason things out and they may stop the thinking process to soon as a result.



As for financial issues, sometimes older people just tend to get more anxious about things, including their budget, even if there is no reason for them to be. I think it’s a side effect of things just getting harder for them because of the aging process.


I have no expertise in this area, just things I've noticed from my elderly neighbors and relatives. My dad, who when he was younger use to have a lot of common sense, at one point was buying anything from anybody as long as he thought they were "nice".


He did get diagnoised with Alzheimer's, and is the first one in a fairly large family to have it AFAIK.


About the worst of it is mild memory loss from what I understand. Maybe I'm in "couldn't happen to anyone I know" mode,


Could very well be. I just wanted to throw out another possibility to not only you but to the lurkers out there. Often there's a lot of denial in the family when this first occurs to a relative -- it's hard to see this happen to someone you love, and denial is a common reaction.

[Dark Jaguar]

Thought I'd point out that she's only a year older than I am.

[Dark Jaguar]

Why should they?
Altruism? :D
But really they are out some money and you'd think they would want to aid her if it meant they could get it back. I dunno, can't really think of much they could do aside from NOT holding all the checks she's getting from her job.

[Kaylee]

Altruism? :D
But really they are out some money

Are they? As far as your aunt's money goes, it was always her money -- the bank was just holding it in custody for her.

That's probably one of the reasons they are not helping her, because they don't want to actually be out any money!

[Zbu]

So the moral is: feel free to put 'Nigeria' into your email spam filter.

[Dark Jaguar]

Indeed. At least she's facing the reality of the situation that it was a scam and she fell for it, rather than the guy in that article's stubborn refusal to accept that not even a small part of it was legit.

I will say this. I'm not sure of the details of the email so I don't really even know if she was willingly trying to break some laws or not. The details I've heard make it clear it is some sort of Nigerian scam but I'm just not sure what mutation this virus is.

I'll tell you right now, I intend on actually talking to her directly sometimes this weekend to get some actual details on key things, such as what exactly led her to believe the mail was legit.

At any rate, yes it was a pretty stupid thing, but as of yet I don't know yet if it was a willingly evil act she was trying to do.

[kevin]

Are they? As far as your aunt's money goes, it was always her money -- the bank was just holding it in custody for her.

That's probably one of the reasons they are not helping her, because they don't want to actually be out any money!

banks make money holding it for you. if there is no money in the account they make no money.

at the very least your aunt should shut down her account. Should she open a new account at the same bank? I wouldn't, but if she wants to she should make sure her original account is shutdown.

[Dark Jaguar]

I should rephrase. She's $3200 IN THE HOLE. She owes the bank money at this point.

[Vitnir]

I read a article by a journalist from Expressen www.expressen.se who pretended to fall for the scam, he noted the power of greed was realy strong. Even as he knew it was a scam he could have doubts and think to himself, "But what if it is true, I'd be rich". He followed the trail as far as Netherlands, a hub for the scams in Europe but was advised to leave it alone once he got there (by the Swedish police). I have never been near to feel that greed surge myself but by reading the testimonials over the net I would have to say it's powers seem pretty great.

[MRC_Hans]

I should rephrase. She's $3200 IN THE HOLE. She owes the bank money at this point.So, she needs to pay it back. Of course she might try to persecute the scammers, but I doubt it is worth the trouble. It is certainly not worth spending monet on it.

I know it is a bad situation, but hey, she spent the money, so who else can pay it?

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Altruism? :D
But really they are out some money and you'd think they would want to aid her if it meant they could get it back. I dunno, can't really think of much they could do aside from NOT holding all the checks she's getting from her job.Well, that does look a bit harsh. Can't she get an agreement with them on reasonable monthly installments. After all, banks make a living lending money. It will cost her some additional money in interests, of course, still....

Hans

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Thought I'd point out that she's only a year older than I am.

You're 83? :eek:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

banks make money holding it for you. if there is no money in the account they make no money.

And if they help every person who has fallen for a scam, they lose money.

[strathmeyer]

There was a good article about the 419 scam in the New Yorker recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact

Sounds like your aunt is lucky to have only lost $3200.

Does anyone think this guy is just playing along and pretending that he actually believes because he thinks people will feel sorry for him? His wife has got to be in on it to. I've never really understood the New Yorker, but the whole story just seems so weird. It talks about what a great guy he must be, and then goes on to describe all the fraud he commits and illegal things he does. It obvious that he is highly immoral and can't bear the thought that he may have done something wrong.

[kevin]

And if they help every person who has fallen for a scam, they lose money.

Plenty of other banks seem to do it. My brother had an identity theft pulled on his account and the bank put the money back, it was roughly the same amount as at issue here.

If someone came up to me on the street an mugged me I wouldn't expect the bank to put the money back. But if the money was stolen from the bank, i shouldn't be expected to cover for that. So in this situation did the bank play any role in allowing this to happen. Personally if my account suddenly had transfers in thousands of dollers that hadn't happened before, I'd like a phone call (which is how my brother found out about his issue, the bank called. Although they had already stupidly transfered the funds.)

Basically on pr/marketing level helping the lady out would be very positive, espeically if you made a big deal out of it and commented on new security policies being in place to prevent these types of issues. The bad word of mouth from the incident could cost the bank far more than $3200. Espeically if they don't review their practices and their other accounts suffer similar fates.

[tkingdoll]

Plenty of other banks seem to do it. My brother had an identity theft pulled on his account and the bank put the money back, it was roughly the same amount as at issue here.



That's a totally different thing, identity theft is out of your control. With the Nigerian scams, you freely give them your money under the belief that you will get millions back.

[Dark Jaguar]

You're 83? :eek:

o_o

I don't recall actually ever STATING my aunt's age, but if the definition of aunt requires that the individual is, and ever shall be, permanently age locked at 84, I can see how you would reach that conclusion.

At any rate, the suggestion to try and get the bank to agree to not hold it by setting up a loan situation is a good one. When I get in contact with her, I'll suggest it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Plenty of other banks seem to do it. My brother had an identity theft pulled on his account and the bank put the money back, it was roughly the same amount as at issue here.

If someone came up to me on the street an mugged me I wouldn't expect the bank to put the money back. But if the money was stolen from the bank, i shouldn't be expected to cover for that.

The money wasn't "stolen" from the bank. It was withdrawn by the account holder.

Personally if my account suddenly had transfers in thousands of dollers that hadn't happened before, I'd like a phone call.

What if it was hundreds of dollars? Would you want the bank to call you everytime you made a withdrawl? I wouldn't.

[Dark Jaguar]

This is another important detail I need to know. Was this the scam asking for her "account details" so they could put the money INTO her account (but instead they took more than she actually had) or was she asked to wire them the money, in which case in her zeal she took out more money than she actually had?

I'm thinking the former simply because from what I understand, that seems to be the case, but I'll find out soon enough.

[Angus McPresley]

I think it's imperitive on one to give a primer[1] to friends and relatives who are new to the internet about these sorts of things (especially the "Nigerian" and phishing scams). Maybe even send them one and see if they fall for it.

I totally believe that guy in the article still believes that there was some truth to the deal. The power of denial is ginormous. Plus I don't think it garners much sympathy anyway -- it just makes people think he's even a bigger idiot.

[1] Off topic: did you know that "primer", properly pronounced, rhymes with "trimmer"? I never knew that until just recently. I've been saying it wrong for years.

[BPSCG]

[1] Off topic: did you know that "primer", properly pronounced, rhymes with "trimmer"? I never knew that until just recently. I've been saying it wrong for years.

What's even stranger is that "trimmer" rhymes with "timer."

[geoman]

Only modestly off-topic, a couple of years ago I started a study to see whether the increasing numbers of Nigerian scam emails had led the scammers to increase the value of the deals (in order to woo potential mugs into choosing THEIR deal rather than the one from the brother-in-law-of-the-ousted-president in the next email). A sort of scam inflationary pressure, if you will.

Unfortunately my company started spam filtering our emails a year and a half into the process so I never got enough data to be statistically significant. However the trend seemed to be that the headline figure ("I have $xxMM to transfer") went up whereas the scammee's cut ("You can have xx% of the total transfer") went down such that the total gain was about flat.

Also the ones actually claiming to come from Nigeria were more clustered around the mean values, and emails from other miscellaneous countries tended to be outliers.

This would be a fine study for an economics journal & I commend it to the myriad professional economists out there!