IDF apologizes -- Gaza Beach Tragedy

[Skeptic]

Again I searched and again I failed to find any confirmation.

Until you provide evidence, I assume your implication is false.

Well, if you ignore the land mine that blew up on the beach which the Palestinians blamed on nonexistent "155 shells", which is what we're talking abut here, there's really no evidence for mining the beaches.

[webfusion]

Actually, the Palestinians themselves originally, mere hours after the event happened, were blaming it on the IDF navy, shelling from a patrol boat offshore.

They released a professionally-edited video 'proving' that fact, with their eyewitnesses pointing out to the sea, and telling how they saw the boat firing at the beach and that those shells landed, killing the Ghaliyas.

That is the Palestinian narrative. That is in evidence. I even offered the video earlier in this thread, from a broadcast on Al-Jazeera TV, the ostensibly reliable news-gathering source in the Arab world.

After carefully reconstructing the events objectively, as skeptics, we have to agree that several things don't add up:

1. The IDF naval vessel stopped firing around noon.

2. The IDF naval vessel has 76mm guns.

3. Something exploded on the beach after 4:30pm, and it was not a 155mm IDF artillery shell. Forensics testing eliminated that as a source for the shrapnel removed from the victims in Israeli hospitals. The Israeli doctors were shocked to find that the victims they received had been cleaned of shrapnel, despite there being no medical reason for doing that, and only these two pieces were able to be recovered. Both fragments went through independent (non-IDF) forensics and the results were declared, unequivocally, 100%, not to be from 155mm shells.

Mr Garlasco, finally, admitted that he recognizes those foresnics are accurate, and that the tragedy must have been the result of UXO or IED detonation.

I happen to believe IED, based on the Palestinian proclivity of setting up IED booby-traps to thwart IDF infiltrations into areas such as that gaza beach, which only several days before (during the night of May 29-30th) had been used by IDF commandos, resulting in the killing of several Islamic Jihad terrorists, who were caught in the process of launching qassems. The IDF Major-General Kalifi said their well-placed palestinian informers revealed that the IED's had been set up along the beach.

Abu Ahmad, Islamic Jihad spokesman, in the aftermath of that May 30 attack, threatened massive retaliation, threatened to open the gates of hell against the Israelis, threatened to connect a string of booby traps across the beach, threatened to resist the occupation with every means possible. These same threats are repeated by them every Monday and Thursday.

varwoche, what are you looking to prove?

We will never know the exact facts, and it really doesn't matter at this late date. Sh8t happens.

Say it could have been Palestinian I-E-D and move on with your life.

[a_unique_person]

We will never know the exact facts, and it really doesn't matter at this late date. Sh8t happens.

Say it could have been Palestinian I-E-D and move on with your life.

Hang, that is a non-sequitor.

We will never know the exact facts.
Say it could have been Palestinian.

[varwoche]

varwoche, what are you looking to prove? I'm just trying to nail down the facts. To review:

You claimed something, sans a citation.
I couldn't find any evidence of your claim via google.
I asked you to post evidence.
You declined.
Again I googled and couldn't find supporting evidence.
I again prompted you to post evidence.
Again you declined.

Do you have evidence that Islamic Jihad stated they were going to mine the beach, yes or no? And if yes, will you cite your evidence please? (third request)

[fuelair]

To me, the important point in all this is if I was in charge in Israel, there would be a lot more dead Palestinians than there are - and I would not feel a second of guilt. Too many of them are nothing but common murderers (to be fair, I feel the same about the IRA, the Basque seperatists, the ethnic cleansing groups anywhere, the armed fundies in the US, any armed cult,sect, etc., etc.). In the film Untouchables, the Sean Connery character had it right except: kill one of ours, we'll take 1000 of yours. Learn or die. (Yet, surprisingly to many, I think little kids are neat - just keep them from learning stupid hates !!!!!!!)

[Dcdrac]

And what if you are trying to to be strictly nuetral, it is not impossible to be so, in this conflict and look at the actions of both sides and judge accordingly. No one side has a dvine right to that land, they should share it together, two states if necesarry, together they could work to make an area of stability in the Middle East. It is time to stop the violence and harking back.

If you saw the Sunday Times this weekend you would have seen a story of how when a plistinian child was killed by the IDF and his parents instead of calling on the vengence of god etc, etc, donated their child organs, this single act has saved 5 lives, three of them israeli.

And this rubbish about if you support the arabs you mudt support the holocaust is truely benaeth contempt and if anything sullies the memory of it, becasue it is such a cheap nasty swipe, it is degrading to stoop so low.

I have spent a lot of my time up against revisionist and extrmee nutcases who deny it happened, to say that if you are capable of seeing both sided to this conflcit that somehow means you support the holocaust is not just absurd it is sick.

[Jocko]

And what if you are trying to to be strictly nuetral, it is not impossible to be so, in this conflict and look at the actions of both sides and judge accordingly. No one side has a dvine right to that land, they should share it together, two states if necesarry, together they could work to make an area of stability in the Middle East. It is time to stop the violence and harking back.

Great. We'll just clap our hands and shout how much we believe in fairies and that'll do the trick.

Every bit as much as another disingenuous if well-meaning cry for patience, love and universal understanding. Like faires, it's a myth in these cases.

If you saw the Sunday Times this weekend you would have seen a story of how when a plistinian child was killed by the IDF and his parents instead of calling on the vengence of god etc, etc, donated their child organs, this single act has saved 5 lives, three of them israeli.

Yes, anecdotal evidence abounds. Properly framed, it can "prove" virtually anything. That's why such emotionally-driven tidbits are not counted as evidence.

Now, show me 10,000 Palestinians marching for an end to all violence, and that's a lot less anecdotal.

And this rubbish about if you support the arabs you mudt support the holocaust is truely benaeth contempt and if anything sullies the memory of it, becasue it is such a cheap nasty swipe, it is degrading to stoop so low.

Missed this one... who said it? You should really quote who you're responding to.

I have spent a lot of my time up against revisionist and extrmee nutcases who deny it happened, to say that if you are capable of seeing both sided to this conflcit that somehow means you support the holocaust is not just absurd it is sick.

Are you saying you understand both sides of the "did the holocaust really happen" debate (for lack of a better word)? Because that's the obvious conclusion to your statement.

[Dcdrac]

No what i mean is that if you are able to see that there are two sides to the Israrali/Pal conflict it does not automatically follow that you also suppport holocasut denial and or the killing of jews.

The remarks are not being direceted to anyone poster just to the gneral feel and them of the posts I have seen here.

[Jocko]

No what i mean is that if you are able to see that there are two sides to the Israrali/Pal conflict it does not automatically follow that you also suppport holocasut denial and or the killing of jews.

The remarks are not being direceted to anyone poster just to the gneral feel and them of the posts I have seen here.

So, you're responding to something no one said? Right.

[webfusion]

varwoche --

I do not have access to the Hebrew press archives, where I originally noticed the report quoting the Islamic Jihad spokesman, Abu Ahmed, after his organization suffered yet more and more deaths during the few weeks at the end of May and early June 2006, saying that his organization would 'act to protect the beaches from further infiltrations by the IDF' ---- and under the ongoing circumstances of IDF raids from land sea and air, this was a reasonable comment for him to make. After all, the Gaza Strip was under intense assault, as the Islamic jihad terrorists were being killed left and right by various IDF operations. Setting up a series of IED's on the Beit Lahiya shoreline was a perfectly logical thing for them to do. In fact, the jihadists were clearly engaged during this time period in setting several mines/IED's, and the IDF killed several of these guys in the process of trying to plant these high-explosives charges ----
6-15-06
The IDF said Thursday evening that an aircraft opened fire at three Palestinians as they were attempting to plant a roadside bomb near the Kissufim crossing, along the Gaza Strip security fence


Sorry I can't locate the original article.
AFAIK, it was not covered in the English-language media, which may explain why your google search has come up empty.

The news on the day in question (May 31st):
Ma’ariv’s website reports that the IDF ground troops, who were members of a special forces unit ('Shaldag'), went well beyond the Israeli border into Beit Lahiya, where they encountered a group of Islamic Jihad activists preparing to fire rockets into Israel. The Israeli troops opened fire, and subsequently called in a helicopter gunship for backup firepower.

Anyway, I think we have pretty much moved beyond questioning what happened on the beach that fateful day.
Too many fateful days have passed since, and it is not particularly important to continue focusing our collective (limited) attention on the June 9th events, while the Palestinians in Gaza are now on the verge of the largest assault by Israel Armored troops since 1967.

That single tragic explosion on the beach will amount to nothing, compared to what may be about to commence...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4758477

(note date on article)

[a_unique_person]

So, you're responding to something no one said? Right.

Skeptic says it, in this thread.

[varwoche]

varwoche --

I do not have access to the Hebrew press archives, where I originally noticed the report quoting the Islamic Jihad spokesman, Abu Ahmed, after his organization suffered yet more and more deaths during the few weeks at the end of May and early June 2006, saying that his organization would 'act to protect the beaches from further infiltrations by the IDF' Seeing as this mysterious quote would be a significant piece of information if true, and yet neither of us can find it, causes me to be highly dubious.

Surely you understand that this does not even vaguely qualify as evidence, no matter how persistently you tout it.

[webfusion]

Can you locate any quotes of Abu Ahmed?

[Skeptic]

No what i mean is that if you are able to see that there are two sides to the Israrali/Pal conflict it does not automatically follow that you also suppport holocasut denial and or the killing of jews.

You're correct, of course, but can you tell me why, exactly, you are "willing to see both sides" of a conflict where one side's explicit goal is the destruction and genocide of the other?

I'm not saying you SUPPORT that goal, mind you, but I wonder why you would even both to UNDESTAND that. My point is, that some views--e.g., support of genocide--have no moral right to even be "understood".

To put it a bit crudely: suppose a would-be murderous rapist wanted to rape and kill your wife (I assume you're a male). Would you consider it morally acceptable to "try and understand both sides"--the pro-rape-and-murder side, and the anti-rape-and-murder side?

No, in both cases, the only morally honorable reply to such views as those supporting genocide and rape/murder is to simply ignore them, or fight them, not "understand" them, since the very act of trying to "understand" them tends to puts perpertrator and victim, genocider and genocide victim, on a morally equivalent plane.

[varwoche]

Can you locate any quotes of Abu Ahmed?Yes. Why do you ask?

[webfusion]

I ask because maybe you could locate the full transcript of his comments directly after the May 30th IDF incursion to Beit Lahiya ---- I know such a transcript must exist, since I specifically recall reading that he promised to stop another incursion along the beaches, using "all available means".
I saw his comments reported (in the Hebrew media) on May 31st or June 1st.

Abu Ahmad consistently makes comments about how Israel will pay a dear price for their ongoing elimination of these IJ terror masterminds.

"Today we have lost another hero (Dadouh, May 20th), but Allah willing the Israeli government will drink the same bitter drink that Dadouh's family and our people have been swallowing for a long time," said Abu Ahmed, the spokesman for Islamic Jihad's military wing.

"The blood and the flesh of our leader today is the fuel for the resistance vehicle. There will be no limitations and no borders for our coming reprisal. All possible means of resistance will be used," Abu Ahmed said.

[Dcdrac]

if Hamas is sincere in what it has said today, and i will only passjudgement once i see what they put out, then there appears there is movement from both sides, Olmerts paln however flawed, and Hamsass move today, which could be simply a cynical political move.

[Jocko]

Skeptic says it, in this thread.

Dcdrac doesn't seem to think so:

The remarks are not being direceted to anyone poster just to the gneral feel and them of the posts I have seen here.

Anything else you'd like to contribute? I'm always on the lookout for interesting posts.

[Mycroft]

if Hamas is sincere in what it has said today, and i will only passjudgement once i see what they put out, then there appears there is movement from both sides, Olmerts paln however flawed, and Hamsass move today, which could be simply a cynical political move.

What has Hamas said today that gives you hope?

[Mycroft]

Anything else you'd like to contribute? I'm always on the lookout for interesting posts.


:big:

[Dcdrac]

What has Hamas said today that gives you hope?

Check out Darats thread, but as i said I will pass judgement when i see what they produce not before, the fact they are even considering accepting Israel is movememnt if it is true.

[Skeptic]

What has Hamas said today that gives you hope?

It will limit its jew-killing to the territories, as long as it is understood that that would only be a stage in the war for israel's complete destruction.

[Dcdrac]

Just been sent these links by my mate in the IDF

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en
http://www.rhr.israel.net/
http://www.alternativenews.org/
http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/Index.asp

This was in resposne to an email isent him for non governemtal sources of inforamtion in Israel.

[webfusion]

The fact they are even considering accepting Israel is movement if it is true.

It's not true.

Thanks for playing along with the JREF "Is It True?" Game ---
You will be mailed the Home Edition, for your enjoyment.

[Mycroft]

Just been sent these links by my mate in the IDF

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en
http://www.rhr.israel.net/
http://www.alternativenews.org/
http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/Index.asp

This was in resposne to an email isent him for non governemtal sources of inforamtion in Israel.


Wow, Dcdrac, your buddy is a hard-core lefty.

[webfusion]

I sure hope that dcdrac's mate isn't in the IDF division that's moving towards invading gaza tonight, it sure will present a dilemma for the poor guy ---- save a fellow soldier or refuse to go along with the invasion of gaza on 'humanitarian grounds'

Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if the Islamic Jihad & HAMAS have set up any IED's (booby traps) on the beaches in anticipation of the invasion which is now looking like it's about to begin?

Ya think?

[webfusion]

Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if the Islamic Jihad & HAMAS have set up any IED's (booby traps) on the beaches in anticipation of the invasion which is now looking like it's about to begin?

Ya think?

For the record:

Gaza Strip, July 6th
Overnight, the IDF targeted a cell of militants in northern gaza laying explosives, killing two of them. A third Palestinian militant was killed by an Air Force raid in southern Gaza.

Palestinians also reported that at least one person was killed in an explosion caused by IDF shelling on Beit Lahiya's beach. The military said that it was not responsible for the blast.

I just had to bump this thread, after reading that update. Here we have the Palestinians laying mines and IED's all over the place, including the beach at Beit Lahiya (scene of the June 9th incident). One of those IED's blows up while it is being armed, and guess what ??!!!! The IDF is blamed.
Now, the IDF is engaged in open combat operations inside the gaza strip, yet the IDF spokesperson takes the effort to review the night's actions and denied that any shelling was being targeted to the Beit Lahiya beach!
One of two things is happening ----------- the IDF is lying, or the palestinians are lying.

You decide.

(I'll tell you my choice: The Palestinians once more laid IED's/mines on the same beach they booby-trapped in early June, and are now embarrassed to admit they are doing it again, because it provides evidence of their own actions leading to the deaths of the Ghalia family).

[Dcdrac]

Wow, Dcdrac, your buddy is a hard-core lefty.

He never used to be, it is what he has seen and been a part of during his time as a career officer inthe IDF that has changed his outlook, he was an out and out Likkudite when we first met 15 years ago. And yes his unit is in Gaza at the moment. He is the type of officer who cares what happens to the soldiers under his command he does not cut and run.

[BPSCG]

(I'll tell you my choice: The Palestinians once more laid IED's/mines on the same beach they booby-trapped in early June, and are now embarrassed to admit they are doing it again, because it provides evidence of their own actions leading to the deaths of the Ghalia family).See, I think you're wrong there, because you're working from the premise that the Palestinians are capable of being embarrassed in the first place. As Claus would say, "evidence?"

[BPSCG]

He is the type of officer who cares what happens to the soldiers under his command he does not cut and run.Are you suggesting this distinguishes him from other IDF officers?

[Dcdrac]

Are you suggesting this distinguishes him from other IDF officers?

No not at all, but there is definite species of officer in all armies that have atendency to drop their troops right in it and then run

[David Swidler]

No not at all, but there is definite species of officer in all armies that have atendency to drop their troops right in it and then run

Except that's not how the IDF operates at all. The officers tend to go first. Hell of a morale booster for the line troops.

[Dcdrac]

Except that's not how the IDF operates at all. The officers tend to go first. Hell of a morale booster for the line troops.


I know they do i know 2 majors and one colonel in the IDF two of which are in Gaza now. The othre is over in Jerusalem.

[webfusion]

See, I think you're wrong there, because you're working from the premise that the Palestinians are capable of being embarrassed in the first place. As Claus would say, "evidence?"

Tough audience.

It's obvious they are embarrassed, they go around wearing masks!
(IMAGE LINK)
http://www.vrtnieuws.be/nieuwsnet_master/versie2/mediatheek/audio_060510wapenspalestina/N_060221_hamas_militant_b.jpg

[Mycroft]

See, I think you're wrong there, because you're working from the premise that the Palestinians are capable of being embarrassed in the first place. As Claus would say, "evidence?"


Uhm, I think you're right that they're not capable of being embarrassed, but they still work hard to create some sort of vaguely plausable alternative narative to excuse their wrong-doings.

[webfusion]

Photo of Islamic Jihad/HAMAS/Unidentified Terrorist Maniac
laying IED bombs in gaza today ---
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D060706/lahiyeh_reish_ap.jpg

Vaguely plausible alternative narrative -- I like that term.
VPAN for today:

Assailants kill senior Hamas official in Gaza, Dr. Hussein Abu Ajwa.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735471.html

Whodunnit? Dunno.
Say IDF. Why not. VPAN.