Answering the Lou Gentile Issue

[KevinM]

Since Lou is obviously unable to respond(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count). Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Regardless of the accuracy of any of these statements the majority of people who believe in psychic phenomenon believe them. Several people have claimed to have passed the test, or to have been refused to be tested or some thing of the sort. By itself this is not proof of any thing. JREF's inconsistency in response and carelessness in communication does NOT lend any credence to the challenge. Sending a message via the contact form on the Radio Show web site as opposed to sending a direct email, sending via us mail, or simply calling is an obviously stupid way to communicate some thing of this importance. Any one can claim to be any one on it so when Lou got one claiming to be from James Randi he fairly reasonably disregarded it.

As to taking the time whats the problem? Do I really need to point out the ammount of jerking around thats gone on on JREFs side. Taking months to respond, not informing claiments of Krammer no longer handling claims or Randi's illness(sure its on the web site but in whats supposed to be an organization some one should be capable of this kind of basic communication don't expect people to rush to respond to you). Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam and we never received. Aside from which we've found a large problem with the new protocol after consulting a professional magician of our aquantance. Any one with a reasonable ammount of training as a magician should be able to see into, manipulate or change the contents of envelopes. While we are confident Randi will make sure we can not do this the very real question remains of what prevents some one from JREF from manipulating the envelopes. I"m sorry but promises of honesty aren't going to cut it any more then Randi would rely solely on a claiments word they won't manipulate the test. When Mr Gentile does recover we will be looking into the matter and trying to find a viable solution. JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.

[MWare]

JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.

Take a look at the Sylvia clock on the main page. You'll see waiting is not something to which we're unaccustomed.

[macgyver]

KevinM, if you're associated with Lou Gentile, and you're concerned with proper communication, then why are you posting on an open forum rather than contacting Jeff Wagg at JREF directly?

[greyfeather75]

noone from JREF will have to manipulate the envelopes as all rational human beings know psychic phenomena do not exist.....why would any skeptic bother? Just let them make fools of themselves, don't need anyone's help for that.....

[KevinM]

I would assume that Randi is capable of checking his own message board. Other wise it can wait for Lou to recover and deal with him directly. Sides this makes it a public matter instead of one sided comments from Mr Randi.

Now in regards to the kiddy answer about fiddling with envelopes. Are you joking? Seriously thats quite possibly the dumbest excuse you could possibly have given for why we should leave it wide open for cheating on JREF's side. You may think theres no need to cheat but as we beleive in the phenomenon exactly why should we trust that some one isn't going to try to protect the million dollars at stake? I'm not a fan of blind faith especially in an organization with a substantial ammount of money on the line. We need either a proper test the guarantees honesty on both sides or theres no point in continuing with this becuase no results in either direction will prove any thing.

[macgyver]

I'm not a fan of blind faith

I beg to differ.

[RSLancastr]

Kevin, Mr. Randi rarely visits the forum. And, although some of his employees are regulars here on the forum, it is definitely not the place to post something, assuming it will be brought to his attention in a timely manner (if at all).

It is a good place to make a copy of something available for the public to read, but don't rely on it as a means of communicating with The Amazing One.

As far as the three common misconceptions you point out in your original post:

Common Misconception/Excuse #1) Randi doesn't really have the money

As has been mentioned both on this forum and in Mr. Randi's weekly column many times, the funds exist, as is easily proven. Have you taken the few minutes it would take to establish this?

Common Misconception/Excuse #2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria

Randi insists that the protocol include results which are easily determined, with no need for judgement calls. If he and Mr. Gentile agree on such a protocol, there is no room for either party to weasel out of it. Either the test is passed, or it isn't.

Common Misconception/Excuse #3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

The protocol is agreed to by both parties, in writing, ahead of time.

If you (or abnyone else) can come up with any examples of times when Mr. Randi has done this, many here would be interested in hearing about it.

Assuming that you are correct, in that the JREF could have handled communications better - so what? If I were someone with an actual, provable paranormal claim, I would patiently but firmly go through the process, document it publically as it happens, and see what happens.

After all, anyone who beats the challenge will end up with:

1. A Million Dollars
2. A ton of free publicity
3. The admiration and gratitude of fans of the paranormal everywhere

Sounds like its worth some patience.

[macgyver]

After all, anyone who beats the challenge will end up with:

1. A Million Dollars
2. A ton of free publicity
3. The admiration and gratitude of fans of the paranormal everywhere



I would add to this list:
4. The gratitude and admiration of the Scientific community

Since you have just added to the body of knowledge something that was previously thought impossible. Once the scientific community can replicate the experiments multiple times, and have the results peer reviewed, you'll all go down in history like Newton or Einstein..

Technology and human progress will not have seen anything quite so important since the dawn of radio communications.

Then again.....you have to at least get through some simple paperwork...

[KevinM]

The problem youre missing is the difference between perception and reality. Your answers are certainly the official answers to the issues raised. The problem is the paranormal community as a whole isn't buying those answers. A lot of it relies on what is in fact blind faith in a man who doesn't believe. As for an example thats easy. Mr Randi did eventually reject the original protocol. He didn't email Mr Gentile regarding this, Krammer didn't email Mr Gentile regarding this nor did any other representitive of JREF. Randi created an altered form based on a sugested alternate test from us and sent a copy to a radio show host but either didn't send one to Lou or it got mislabeled as spam in the subject field and was automaticly deleted. Randi then raised this as an example of Lou dodging the issue on a radio show. Thats not dodging thats mismanagment on JREF's part. As to sending it to Randi I could but why? He expects us to check his web site for updates and communication(no contact that the challenge was on hold, no contact Kramer was not handling them).

[KevinM]

I have to disagree with that list. If some one suceeds they would get:
1) A million dollars
2) The support of JREF and scientists that support its work
3) Derided by the scientists who don't
4) Treated as a messiah by some and the devil himself by others and facing death threats from both

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Several people have claimed to have passed the test...

Of course these people have video recordings of themselves passing the test. May we see them? No? I didn't think so....:rolleyes:

[macgyver]

I have to disagree with that list. If some one suceeds they would get:
1) A million dollars
2) The support of JREF and scientists that support its work
3) Derided by the scientists who don't
4) Treated as a messiah by some and the devil himself by others and facing death threats from both

#4 is a bit melodramatic don't you think?

As for #3, that's in essence the scientific process at work. Science wouldn't get anywhere if certain ideas weren't proven wrong. It's how science progresses.

There is no blind faith in somebody who chooses NOT to believe in something until it can be proven with EVIDENCE...

faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Webster)

Do you actually think Randi doesn't want you to prove him wrong? He doesn't need the million dollars, but I bet you could use a little jingle in the jeans...

Prove him wrong! That's the challenge! Every skeptic and scientist on the planet truly wants to see it happen! WE WANT YOU TO SUCCEED!

Then we want to study it, pick it apart, and understand it....

There's no conspiracy to keep your "truth" hidden...honestly!

[KevinM]

You know for as inteligent as skeptics think they are you could use some work on your reading comprehension. People CLAIM to have passed the test isn't the same thing as people have passed it. The problem is that Randi has easy answers to every question of the sort but not every one takes him at his word on that. Between those rumors and the way the challenge has been handled so far its no suprise people don't beliee Randi won't pay up. Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.

[macgyver]

You know for as inteligent as skeptics think they are you could use some work on your reading comprehension. People CLAIM to have passed the test isn't the same thing as people have passed it. The problem is that Randi has easy answers to every question of the sort but not every one takes him at his word on that. Between those rumors and the way the challenge has been handled so far its no suprise people don't beliee Randi won't pay up. Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.

To whom was this addressed?

You could employ the use of a spelling checker, it would help us with our inferior comprehension skills.

[RSLancastr]

Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.Do you know of any instances of someone who is suing him because of him not paying up after they passed the test?

[macgyver]

Why are the paranormal apologists always so concerned with the legitimacy of the million dollar payout?

Just do the freakin' test, and worry about the money after you've won.

Even if the whole thing is rigged, what have you got to lose?

You obviously believe in what you believe in, so you should also consider it an easy win! If it turns out that you were right all along and JREF doesn't hold up it's end of the bargain, then you've got plenty of ammo to go to the media with and tar and feather them.

Go for it! You've got nothing to lose but a little bit of time and a modicum of effort.

[Gr8wight]

This conversation is totally useless. Mr. Gentile is unable to undertake the challenge at this time due to his injury. We all wish Lou a speedy recovery, and at such a future time as he is healthy enough to resume his daily activities we will enjoy re-entering this discussion. Until then, all we are doing here is spinning wheels.

Vilifying the JREF and Randi is something that is routinely done by those who cannot, or will not undertake the challenge. Do not lead us to suspect that Mr. Gentile falls into that category. When he is well enough, he can speak for himself, and then we shall see (or hear) what we shall see (or hear).

edited to add: I am a big fan of Blind Faith. I wish they had recorded more than one album.

[KevinM]

what do we have to gain? Frankly I don't think JREF declaring some one psychic is going to have a great impact on world events or the scientific community as a whole. The same people who don't believe will continue not to believe and scientists will continue to dismiss it. Science for all that it should be has never been quick to accept a new theory even when its been tested over and over again. For what skeptics seem to think I don't agree that skeptics are more likely to change there oppinions then religious people or beleivers(and the idea that religion does not change over time is such a patently ubsurd one I've never understood why any one believes it five minutes perusing the history of Catholicism can prove it wrong(to give one example) it just takes time. Often in both cases the time it takes is the length of time before the old guard dies or retires and new minds not as rigid in old beliefs can take over.

As to what we have to lose how about the time, money and the effort involved. Its up to us to cover travel expenses and the like so in fact we do have some thing fundamental to lose in wasting time chasing what may in fact be a scam of some sort. Arguing Randi would be happy to lose the money is in fact a non helpful arguement. IT requires us to believe his motives are on the up and up and that unlike most other people he isn't so set in his beliefs he'll never except the paranormal just because it doesn't fit his world view. He may think he is adaptive and willing to change but that doesn't mean he'll admit he's wrong if he's proven wrong. He certainly seems stuborn enough.

[macgyver]

This conversation is totally useless. Mr. Gentile is unable to undertake the challenge at this time due to his injury. We all wish Lou a speedy recovery, and at such a future time as he is healthy enough to resume his daily activities we will enjoy re-entering this discussion. Until then, all we are doing here is spinning wheels.


edited to add: I am a big fan of Blind Faith. I wish they had recorded more than one album.

It appeared that KevinM is somehow working closely with Mr. Gentile based on his language early in this thread. If he is not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone involved with Lou Gentiles application, then I suppose you are right.

[Zep]

OK, I'm going to try and paraphrase KevinM's concerns a bit more concisely. Please correct me if I'm wrong, KevinM:

1) The Challenge rules as publshed are all well and good. Anyone with at least half a brain can understand them.

2) The PERCEPTION of how the Challenge is managed has been hugely negatively influenced by the paranormal community, especially in the electronic media.

3) Randi/JREF does not address this issue of misperception adequately. Responses are slow, inadequate, not widely distributed, and/or absent.

4) The twain shall never meet until the issues ARE addressed, by some means as yet to be determined.

Is that it?

[Zep]

IT requires us to believe his motives are on the up and up and that unlike most other people he isn't so set in his beliefs he'll never except the paranormal just because it doesn't fit his world view. He may think he is adaptive and willing to change but that doesn't mean he'll admit he's wrong if he's proven wrong. He certainly seems stuborn enough.And this is where you are wrong.

It is NOT NECESSARY THAT RANDI AGREE IF ANYTHING IS PARANORMAL OR NOT TO PASS THE CHALLENGE. If the protocols are agreed beforehand, Randi will have nothing to do with any subsequent pass/fail. At that point, before the testing takes place, JREF has already agreed that the money IS winnable and that it WILL be passed over on success. No matter how much he personally may grumble and dislike it afterwards, no matter how much it may not be his "world view", JREF is legally bound to pass it over if the challenger passes the testing. Randi cannot adapt the situation to his advantage - you could sue the ass off him and JREF if he did, and he knows that full well.

Which is why the testing protocol is necessary to have a definite unjudgeable pass/fail criteria. That way, Randi has no input on the judging process, and so he has no comeback on the results. Exactly the same as the challenger.

Now is there anything about that not quite clear?

[Randi]

The strange mis-spelled and rambling tirade that "KevinM" has put up here, needs a response. I'll do this in steps, replying to about 100 words at a time, since those who make irresponsible claims and/or statements about the JREF challenge, and my involvement in it, seem to need to be fed no more than a spoonful at a time; more than that strains their capacity. To begin:
................................

(1) "Since Lou is obviously unable to respond(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count)."

An incomplete sentence, but why is this such a huge surprise?
................................
(2) "Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money

Dummy, it clearly, plainly, coherently, states in the challenge rules -- if you'd ever troubled to read them, before shooting off your mouth -- under Rule 8: "One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail." Gee, "KevinM," I don't recall your ever contacting us for validation! Some others, obviously smarter than you, have asked for the validation, and have received -- free of any charge -- a dated copy of the account information, the account balance, and the details of the account. READ THE RULES.
..................................
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria

Where did this revelation come from? Since, in all the scores of tests done, no one has ever passed the preliminary test, no formal test has taken place. How then was the conclusion reached that I -- more properly, the JREF, since the million dollars is not mine -- would not "pay up"? And as for offering excuses, that is not possible by the rules; both sides are committed to the decisions made in the agreed-upon protocol. There are no escape clauses. READ THE RULES.
...................................
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Another divine revelation? No changes to the agreed-upon protocol can be made -- by either party. READ THE RULES.
.................................

That's all for now. As soon as "KevinM" has read -- and understood -- this beginning, I'll move on.

James Randi.

[KevinM]

Glad to see you responded althoiugh not exactly in awe of your continual need to insult.

I suggest you reread what I wrote since you missed the fairly obvious point. I did not say I don't believe you have the money. What I did point out is that among the multiple complaints raised against you thats a common one. I doubt your ignorant of the fact the majority of the paranormal community seems to think this is some kind of scam. While I"ve got your attention any chance you'd address your communication problems? I know you think every one reads your site but reasonable update(ie changes in the personel we should deal with) would be emailed out instead of making us come to you.

[KevinM]

The question isn't what they say its what happens. Do we really need to go back over the incident you and Lou and had regarding the protocol change? The whole lack of an email was rather interesting. As was the incredible lack of communication beofre hand.

[Zep]

So is your problem, KevinM, that you are complaining that Randi has not emailed you soon enough for your liking. Is THAT it?

[Gr8wight]

Can we please stop talking to KevinM like he has some official standing in this matter. Any discussion in this matter needs to be between the JREF and the challenge applicant, Mr. Lou Gentile. KevinM has no authority to negotiate on behalf of Mr. Gentile, and I am saddened that Mr. Randi felt it necessary to become involved in this discussion. The last thing he should be doing is lowering himself to the level of these deluded people.

[CFLarsen]

KevinM,

Let's stop for a moment here, shall we?

Let's clear up one thing: The money.

It exists.

As is clearly stated by JREF, you can get validation of the account by contacting JREF, by phone, fax or mail.

Heck, you can even see a print-out right here:

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/investmentaccount.gif

Do you acknowledge that the money exists, yes or no?

I am not saying that you claimed the money doesn't exist. I just want to get that issue out of the way. I am sure you are very interested in that, too.

[Zep]

Can we please stop talking to KevinM like he has some official standing in this matter. Any discussion in this matter needs to be between the JREF and the challenge applicant, Mr. Lou Gentile. KevinM has no authority to negotiate on behalf of Mr. Gentile, and I am saddened that Mr. Randi felt it necessary to become involved in this discussion. The last thing he should be doing is lowering himself to the level of these deluded people.To be honest, up until now, KevinM has yet to actually make a straight-out point we can actually get annoyed about. He doesn't seem to want to either. I wish he would...

So far, he has simply parrotted back all the usual gobbledegook we hear with monotonous regularity from the less credible sections of the woo population, but has not actually argued for any them. I don't think that makes him a spokesperson for anyone, perhaps just someone who has previously accepted at face-value some of the woo stances, but now is realising it just isn't so. Could be he is even re-evaluating his position entirely? Or maybe he just doesn't like the JREF email server, I don't know...

Well, Randi is over 80 now, and has a long-standing reputation for being a cumudgeon. I'd say he has earned his right to cumudgeon-ness! Would we expect any less now? ;)

[macgyver]

Well, Randi is over 80 now, and has a long-standing reputation for being a cumudgeon. I'd say he has earned his right to cumudgeon-ness! Would we expect any less now? ;)

I consider myself a curmudgeon in training, I only hope to attain Randi's stature as such. My father is also over 80 (and oddly enough looks like Randi's doppleganger) and he has certainly earned his right to be grumpy if he likes.

I say revel in one's curmudgeoness!

[CFLarsen]

Well, Randi is over 80 now

Since when? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi)

Get your facts straight, damn Aussie... :p

[RSLancastr]

Since when? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi)

Get your facts straight, damn Aussie... :pWell, he didn't say years!

[CFLarsen]

Well, he didn't say years!
80 what?

Let's just hope that, whatever it is, it's the metric system....

[RSLancastr]

80 what?Degrees Farenheit.

[CFLarsen]

Degrees Farenheit.
What's that in real measurements?

ETA: And it's "Fahrenheit", dimbo... :p

[Zep]

Okay, okay Claus. He's 78 or thereabouts. Pointless pedantry. Even so, I'd say he's still entitled to a great deal of cumudgeoninity. And heaven knows what YOU will be like when you get to his age (IF you get to his age...) starting from where you are now. ;)

[macgyver]

Ummm, guys? Sorry to get in the middle of your mudslinging....but the word is curmudgeon.

There's an "r" in there....

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.

[Zep]

Ummm, guys? Sorry to get in the middle of your mudslinging....but the word is curmudgeon.

There's an "r" in there....

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.Noted with thanks.

Please read throughout:

curmudgeon
curmudgeonness
curmudgeoninity

[strathmeyer]

I doubt your ignorant of the fact the majority of the paranormal community seems to think this is some kind of scam.

Yeah, right, it's a giant scam. The JREF tricks people with paranormal abilities into trying to display these abilities to independant third parties, and these people with the paranormal abilities seem to not have them when in the presence of these independant third parties. Man, that's some scam. They must be rolling in the dough.

[CFLarsen]

Okay, okay Claus. He's 78 or thereabouts. Pointless pedantry.

You should know better than me that, when you get up there, each year counts. :)

Even so, I'd say he's still entitled to a great deal of cumudgeoninity.

I am perpetually surprised that he has so little of it.

And heaven knows what YOU will be like when you get to his age (IF you get to his age...) starting from where you are now. ;)

I'm mellowing out with age....

[Metullus]

I'm mellowing out with age....
:dl:
I done spit my coffee!

[CFLarsen]

It's True!

[valis]

Dummy

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?

[CFLarsen]

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?
How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

[pmckean]

Well, my respect for James Randi has just moved down a notch; albeit from a pretty high point!

I'm massively skeptical of the paranormal in all shapes and sizes and have seen no evidence EVER that it exists, so I'm certainly not pro-psychic. Neither am I a fanboy for James Randi, though. I simply believe that there is such a thing as objective truth, as difficult as it can be to find.

KevinM's mail communicated with absolute unequivocal clarity what he believes is the consensus opinion of the paranormal community. He was addressing a problem of perception, not stating his own views or making a direct accusation. Whether or not paranormal practitioners disseminate doubt about the million dollar prize fund as a means of legitimising their avoidance of it is another issue; I suspect, with no evidence, that it is both genuinely doubted by some, honestly accepted by others and cynically criticised by many.

Randi's posting completely missed KevinM's point, and he engaged in some fairly insulting language. It just wasn't called for. Egg on face, I think.

I'm sure that the JREF isn't the first example of an entirely perfect organisation. Mistakes can get made, and possibly have been, over its long history.

Perhaps there DOES need to be some thought out into a campaign which will educate people as to the definite existence of the prize fund, silencing the naysayers - cynical or otherwise.

Perhaps there HAS been occasional administrative lapses which could contribute to unintentional miscommunication and delayed correspondence between the parties involved on opposite sides of the challenge.

Oh, and I think James Randi does superb work, but before he criticises the misspellings of others, he should learn to get his own name correct..! (see the end of his posting)

[valis]

How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

I don't know; does a rule of thumb count as a rule?

In his notice about acceptable posting behaviour Darat said:

A good rule of thumb as to what is OK here in terms of politeness and civility is “Attacking the argument is fine attacking the Member isn’t”.

Unless of course the point was that Kevin is a mute.

[CFLarsen]

valis,

If you noticed, Randi also attacked the argument.

You have to admit that it doesn't instil the greatest confidence in someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

[valis]

valis,

If you noticed, Randi also attacked the argument.

You have to admit that it doesn't instil the greatest confidence in someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

Actually it appeared in the case of his Dummy comment he misunderstood the argument and attacked a posistion that Kevin did not hold.

Either way I fail to see how saying 'Dummy' addresses the facts of the argument?

Yes it is within the letter of the rules to call names. But some also took the time to stick, right up at the top of every forum a note that includes:

A good rule of thumb as to what is OK here in terms of politeness and civility is “Attacking the argument is fine attacking the Member isn’t”.

I am just wondering aloud if that no longer applies or if it applies to some but not others?

[Darat]

I don't know; does a rule of thumb count as a rule?

In his notice about acceptable posting behaviour Darat said:


Unless of course the point was that Kevin is a mute.

You may not have noticed but this is the James Randi Educational Foundation Forum, I think he can say what he can do on this forum better then what I can do!

Plus you also are quoting out of context from the rest of my announcement, I also said:

As is clear from that paragraph there is no expectation that everyone will be perfectly civil and polite all the time, that occasionally someone’s emotions won’t get the better of them and they’ll post something that isn’t civil or polite. But of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to be as civil and polite as we can be when we post here.

If Randi was a normal Member and someone had reported his post we wouldn't have taken any action for the word "dummy" given the context.

And the context here is that Kevin is decrying the very foundation (pun intended) of the JREF, anyone who thinks Randi should doff his cap to that and say "thanks very much for your insults and attempts to belittle and undermine everything I've been working to achieve over the last 40 years or so" is ignoring (despite rumours to contra) the fact that Randi is indeed a human being!

Anyway this is rather a digression - do you have anything to contribute regarding the topic of this thread?

[pmckean]

Claus,

Please reread the original post. KevinM never complains about the rules, and there is no indication either way as to whether he has read them.

[CFLarsen]

Claus,

Please reread the original post. KevinM never complains about the rules, and there is no indication either way as to whether he has read them.
I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?

[pmckean]

I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?

No idea.

However most of us on this board are not associated with James Randi, yet quite often mount a spirited defence of him and the prize fund on other bulletin boards.

[valis]

Plus you also are quoting out of context from the rest of my announcement, I also said:

As is clear from that paragraph there is no expectation that everyone will be perfectly civil and polite all the time, that occasionally someone’s emotions won’t get the better of them and they’ll post something that isn’t civil or polite. But of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to be as civil and polite as we can be when we post here.

No I made reference to that when I said:
Yes it is within the letter of the rules to call names.


Anyway this is rather a digression - do you have anything to contribute regarding the topic of this thread?

Yes; it appears to me Kevin was stating how other people felt, not himself. Further I am not the only one that read it that way appearently.

I did misunderstand CF Larsen's point when he said:
How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?
In reply to my first post. I thought he was stating that I was complaining about the rules allowing name calling and that was the reason I quoted your notice. Apparently Mr. Larsen was reffering to Kevin not reading the rules.

My mistake and I am sorry for any confusion my reply caused.

That said my personal opinion, for what it is worth is that name calling cheapens the caller and not the subject. It is indeed Randi's forum and he can certainly say whatever he likes. I assume since he posted said thoughts in a public forum that he meant for them to be read and commented upon.

[CFLarsen]

Here is his post, with comments. It is one, long whine:

Since Lou is obviously unable to respond

"Lou"? Kinda familiar tone, hm?

(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count). Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Regardless of the accuracy of any of these statements the majority of people who believe in psychic phenomenon believe them. Several people have claimed to have passed the test, or to have been refused to be tested or some thing of the sort. By itself this is not proof of any thing.

If this is not something Kevin believes, why bring it up at all? To cast suspicion on Randi and the Challenge, of course.

JREF's inconsistency in response and carelessness in communication does NOT lend any credence to the challenge. Sending a message via the contact form on the Radio Show web site as opposed to sending a direct email, sending via us mail, or simply calling is an obviously stupid way to communicate some thing of this importance. Any one can claim to be any one on it so when Lou got one claiming to be from James Randi he fairly reasonably disregarded it.

Why is that an "obviously stupid" way? Huge companies rely on online forms to do business, so why not JREF? If the contact form is there, why not use it?

A cheap attack, nothing more.

As to taking the time whats the problem? Do I really need to point out the ammount of jerking around thats gone on on JREFs side. Taking months to respond

Randi can acknowledge that Lou Gentile has been out for a while, but Kevin can't acknowledge that the same has happened to Randi? Nice...

, not informing claiments of Krammer no longer handling claims

Why on Earth is that relevant? Applicants are dealing with JREF, not a specific person.

or Randi's illness(sure its on the web site but in whats supposed to be an organization some one should be capable of this kind of basic communication don't expect people to rush to respond to you).

Give me a break! Putting that kind of information on the website is the best way to communicate.

Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam

That is not Randi's fault.

and we never received.

"We"? That definitely speaks in favor of Kevin being closely associated with Lou Gentile.

Aside from which we've found a large problem with the new protocol after consulting a professional magician of our aquantance. Any one with a reasonable ammount of training as a magician should be able to see into, manipulate or change the contents of envelopes.

The protocol that was suggested by Kevin et al, yes.

While we are confident Randi will make sure we can not do this the very real question remains of what prevents some one from JREF from manipulating the envelopes.

Talk to the magician, then, and set it up in the protocol.

I"m sorry but promises of honesty aren't going to cut it any more then Randi would rely solely on a claiments word they won't manipulate the test.

Huh? The protocol is there to ensure that there won't be any need of "promises of honesty".

When Mr Gentile does recover we will be looking into the matter and trying to find a viable solution.

"We", again. It looks very much to me as if the good Kevin is heavily involved with Lou Gentile.

JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.

And that's what they have said they will do.

[Zep]

...and we've come back round the circle.

I do believe I already noted that KevinM had not actually made a direct point on which to argue, just a whine about...something.

[Aepervius]

...and we've come back round the circle.

I do believe I already noted that KevinM had not actually made a direct point on which to argue, just a whine about...something.

most of the time up to now I was on JREF side against woo, even in the thread about reciprocibility (sp?) on suing.

But here I have to "slightly" side on KevinM. The protocol is made to eliminate bias and possibility of Fraud. But what you have to agree to, is that it is perfectly understandable that the "testee" wish the same protection .against JREF, aka elimination of bias manipulation risk within the protocol. Kinda a double blind to eliminate bias on experimentater side too.

Now where I totally disagree with him, is the way he is handling it (if we assume he is speaking officialy for Lou Gentile) instead of asking to have an additional blinding and negociating protocol change for that, well he is instead picking up a tantrum. This is the point on which KevinM is wrong (mind you I think also randi reaction isn't correct either, but everybody seems to boil up quicker than milk these day)

[Kimpatsu]

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.
I didn't think Randi believed in spells... :p

[Kimpatsu]

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?
I am NOT calling you "Mr. Randi"! :D

[Raphael]

I love it that The Amazing One doesn't suffer fools- he's earned it!

Also, I don't give a whit if some applicants feel they haven't been treated like royalty. Anyone who can really do what they say, has the motivation to continue, while those who are deluded and/or looking for attention will look for excuses in etiquette.

[RSLancastr]

I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?According to this early post of KevinM's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1445312#post1445312):

"Ok first I'm a coleague of Mr Gentile and in fact was co author on both the original press release and on the application. As such I can probably clear a few things up."So apparently, he is associated with Mr. Gentile, or at least says that he is.

[CFLarsen]

Thanks.

[kieran]

What I did point out is that among the multiple complaints raised against you thats a common one. I doubt your ignorant of the fact the majority of the paranormal community seems to think this is some kind of scam.
... and since when did the "paranormal community" have even the slightest ability at spotting scams?:confused:

If they believe ten things and nine of them are shown to be scams / hoaxes / frauds ... is their first thought "I wonder if that other thing I believe in could also be a scam?" .... or is it "At least I still have that other thing to believe in."?:rolleyes:

Well people on this forum are advocating that the "paranormal community" (whom you seem to be acting as a spokesperson for) should look at the evidence - they are saying that this "community" should investigate whether any of their beliefs about the challenge are well founded? Implicitly, this whole JREF community is saying that we should all look for evidence for the things we believe ... why is the "paranormal community" so scared of facing up to that? I wonder ....

[pmckean]

Kieran,

Don't understimate people's ability to maintain a skewed worldview and still be rational in other ways. In my anecdotal experience, we all have nurtured misconceptions that we don't critically scrutinise or evaluate on a daily basis.

For example, I know plenty of people who exhibit heavy skepticism on supernatural matters whilst still maintaining a profound religious faith.

[deBergerac]

For example, I know plenty of people who exhibit heavy skepticism on supernatural matters whilst still maintaining a profound religious faith.
Sorry but religious beliefs are beliefs in the supernatural. The point you might be trying to make is that there are some people that differentiate between testable and non-testable claims.
To believe in something that it is not possible to test is irrational, but it is not as bad as to believe in something that has been tested and does not work.
At least in my opinion.

[CFLarsen]

I agree. It's the testing, stoopid.

What is very interesting is how people exhibit skeptical thinking in some areas of the supernatural, while going completely overboard in others.

[kieran]

Kieran,

Don't understimate people's ability to maintain a skewed worldview and still be rational in other ways. In my anecdotal experience, we all have nurtured misconceptions that we don't critically scrutinise or evaluate on a daily basis.

For example, I know plenty of people who exhibit heavy skepticism on supernatural matters whilst still maintaining a profound religious faith.
Thanks - I am aware, and wary, of that.:)

[pmckean]

Of course religious belief is supernatural. My point is simply that people are quite capable of simultaneously accepting some principles, however silly they may sound to others, on faith, whilst critically scrutinizing others.

I don't think this cognitive dissonance is just for what this site terms 'Woos' (don't like the word). It's all of us. I have a materialist worldview, and I'm only going to accept infomation which I think is properly tested. But the reality is that I haven't personally done all of the testing required to prove everything that I believe.

Do Antibiotics work?
Does the Moon influence tides?
Can I catch AIDS through contact with infected blood?
Was there a Big Bang?
Did human beings and Apes evolve from a common ancestor.

In each case, I can't say that I can find an intuitively correct answer myself. It isn't obvious, and I don't have the scientific faculties or education to prove these to my own satisfaction.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether I trust the empirical evidence presented by scientists. I have to take their results on faith. I have to assume they're not falsified. I have to assume they're not flawed. I have to take people at their word. We all do - there's just no alternative.

Don't tell me that skeptics require proof of everything; because unless you perform the verification personally, we're all, skeptics or not, taking a hell of a lot on faith.

The only difference between skeptics and believers is who we relax our critical muscles for, and who we accept. Some people will implicitly trust a priest. Some a scientist.

[petre]

Doesn't this all boil down to the common misconception that the existance of irrational thinking and blind faith is a problem that JREF intends to fix?

Perhaps we can distract such people by pointing out that most dictionaries are defective to the point of uselessness, since they cannot perform their intended function at all for most people (since most are printed in a single language that is spoken by a minority of people in the world).

[macgyver]

The only difference between skeptics and believers is who we relax our critical muscles for, and who we accept. Some people will implicitly trust a priest. Some a scientist.

Interesting take on the subject, I'll give you that...

However, we can decide on the governing body that we decide to trust, based on results and evidence. The Scientific community has plenty of both, the religious community has none....

[Darat]

...snip..


The only difference between skeptics and believers is who we relax our critical muscles for, and who we accept. Some people will implicitly trust a priest. Some a scientist.

I totally and utterly disagree with this summary.

I treat what scientists and priests tell me in exactly the same way, I consider what they say, what support they call on for their arguments and conclusions and so on.

However I will admit since only one of those two professions actually offers any evidence for what they tell me is the truth I do tend to be more willing to listen to a "new" scientist rather then a "new" priest.

[Gr8wight]

KevinM's mail communicated with absolute unequivocal clarity what he believes is the consensus opinion of the paranormal community. He was addressing a problem of perception, not stating his own views or making a direct accusation.

A common rhetorical trick. By stating the opinions of other people, you get those opinions on the record without the appearance of having them attached to you. Of course, if one does not share those opinions, why state them?

I have stated those exact opinions in the past. In that case, my purpose was to express suggestions of how to improve the public's perception of the JREF. What were KevinM's reasons, do you think?

[Mr. Scott]

Clearly the woos take a "conclusion first" approach to understanding things like pseudoscience and the Million Dollar Challenge. They start with the conclusion that the supernatural is real, and then they proceed to dismiss all evidence in conflict with their conclusion. To me, the failure of anyone to even come close to winning the million is virtual proof that there is no supernatural, but to the woos, it is proof that JREF and its challenge are invalid -- somehow fatally flawed (e.g. the contest is somehow "fixed" against the woos.)

As much as I love Randi and the JREF, I can see how the challenge seems to be spinning its wheels and not getting the traction it needs to proceed down the road to dismissing all the supernatural bunk.

PS: Anyone notice that there is a KevinM posting on the Lou Gentile forum (http://www.lougentile.com/)? Here's what KevinM claims as his web site (http://www.demonologyresearch.com/). It says "We are a professional research group headed by Lou Gentile" investigating "Ghosts, Poltergeists, Violent Hauntings, Paranormal, Demonic, Diabolical & Occult / Cult Activity."

[CFLarsen]

As much as I love Randi and the JREF, I can see how the challenge seems to be spinning its wheels and not getting the traction it needs to proceed down the road to dismissing all the supernatural bunk.

What are your suggestions?

[Mr. Scott]

What are your suggestions?

This is a dilemma that Randi must be aware of, and I'd be a damn fool to think I could suggest something Randi hasn't already considered. It's probably too broad a topic to hide in the Lou Gentile commentary thread. Give me 24 hours to think this one through.

[CFLarsen]

This is a dilemma that Randi must be aware of, and I'd be a damn fool to think I could suggest something Randi hasn't already considered. It's probably too broad a topic to hide in the Lou Gentile commentary thread. Give me 24 hours to think this one through.
Take all the time you need.

[Flange Desire]

Since Lou is obviously unable to respond(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count). Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Regardless of the accuracy of any of these statements the majority of people who believe in psychic phenomenon believe them. Several people have claimed to have passed the test, or to have been refused to be tested or some thing of the sort. By itself this is not proof of any thing. JREF's inconsistency in response and carelessness in communication does NOT lend any credence to the challenge. Sending a message via the contact form on the Radio Show web site as opposed to sending a direct email, sending via us mail, or simply calling is an obviously stupid way to communicate some thing of this importance. Any one can claim to be any one on it so when Lou got one claiming to be from James Randi he fairly reasonably disregarded it.

As to taking the time whats the problem? Do I really need to point out the ammount of jerking around thats gone on on JREFs side. Taking months to respond, not informing claiments of Krammer no longer handling claims or Randi's illness(sure its on the web site but in whats supposed to be an organization some one should be capable of this kind of basic communication don't expect people to rush to respond to you). Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam and we never received. Aside from which we've found a large problem with the new protocol after consulting a professional magician of our aquantance. Any one with a reasonable ammount of training as a magician should be able to see into, manipulate or change the contents of envelopes. While we are confident Randi will make sure we can not do this the very real question remains of what prevents some one from JREF from manipulating the envelopes. I"m sorry but promises of honesty aren't going to cut it any more then Randi would rely solely on a claiments word they won't manipulate the test. When Mr Gentile does recover we will be looking into the matter and trying to find a viable solution. JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.

OK, so the woos don't want to collect $1,000,000 by simply demonstrating their claims.
Please spare us all the usual limp excuses.

[Flange Desire]

The problem youre missing is the difference between perception and reality.
I hate it how all the woos generalise all the time.

Just kidding.

[Flange Desire]

You know for as inteligent as skeptics think they are you could use some work on your reading comprehension.

Forget the personal attacks, just collect the easy $1 mill.

[Flange Desire]

what do we have to gain?
$1 million dollars US.
Duh!

[Mr. Scott]

What are your suggestions?

The woos need proof the JREF and its agents won't reach a false negative conclusion.

Definitions:

Positive: Paranormal power is demonstrated under controlled conditions and the million dollars is awarded.

Negative: Paranormal power is not demonstrated and the prize remains unclaimed.

False Positive: An applicant without paranormal power fools the observers and wins the million.

False Negative: An applicant who actually has paranormal power fails to win the million.

The False Negative is the possibility that the woos are worried about.

Alarms to detect and report extremely unlikely events need to be tested periodically to make sure they work. Verbal assurances that real paranormal power would be revealed and the money would be awarded are not sufficient. What's needed is an actual demonstration that the prize could be won by someone with true supernatural powers. Oddly, this is like showing a mirror to Randi: "You say you'll award a million for a successful demonstration of paranormal ability? Prove it!"

The details are not easy to work out. Ideally it would need to be double blind, so that not Jeff Wagg, Randi, the organization executing the test, nor Goldman Sachs were aware they were being tested. The test would be considered successful for Randi if the funds actually end up in the false claimant's bank account.

A pie-in-the-sky plan perhaps, but my point is to show the concept, not to suggest we have something ready to roll with.

Granted the hardest part is finding someone with supernatural abilities or enough expert trickery to pretend to have them and not get caught. I haven't got all the answers -- just a starting point for the discussion.

[petre]

The woos need proof the JREF and its agents won't reach a false negative conclusion.

Definitions:

Positive: Paranormal power is demonstrated under controlled conditions and the million dollars is awarded.

Negative: Paranormal power is not demonstrated and the prize remains unclaimed.

False Positive: An applicant without paranormal power fools the observers and wins the million.

False Negative: An applicant who actually has paranormal power fails to win the million.

The False Negative is the possibility that the woos are worried about.

Alarms to detect and report extremely unlikely events need to be tested periodically to make sure they work. Verbal assurances that real paranormal power would be revealed and the money would be awarded are not sufficient. What's needed is an actual demonstration that the prize could be won by someone with true supernatural powers. Oddly, this is like showing a mirror to Randi: "You say you'll award a million for a successful demonstration of paranormal ability? Prove it!"

The details are not easy to work out. Ideally it would need to be double blind, so that not Jeff Wagg, Randi, the organization executing the test, nor Goldman Sachs were aware they were being tested. The test would be considered successful for Randi if the funds actually end up in the false claimant's bank account.

A pie-in-the-sky plan perhaps, but my point is to show the concept, not to suggest we have something ready to roll with.

Granted the hardest part is finding someone with supernatural abilities or enough expert trickery to pretend to have them and not get caught. I haven't got all the answers -- just a starting point for the discussion.

An excellent idea. Just handle the first step of identifying someone with supernatural abilities, and then I'm sure there'll be lots of folks here that can help with the rest (we won't let on that your claimant is the real thing--it'll be a more fun surprise for everyone that way). I look forward to news of your success.

[macgyver]

The details are not easy to work out. Ideally it would need to be double blind, so that not Jeff Wagg, Randi, the organization executing the test, nor Goldman Sachs were aware they were being tested. The test would be considered successful for Randi if the funds actually end up in the false claimant's bank account.



So basically the test is to have somebody win the challenge?

I have a better idea:

Why doesn't somebody claiming to have paranormal abilities JUST TAKE THE DAMN CHALLENGE!!!

The woos need proof? Since when?

[Gr8wight]

The woos need proof the JREF and its agents won't reach a false negative conclusion.

All that talk about negatives and positives, and false results completely misses the point. The claimant describes the talent, ability, or phenomenon he or she is going to demonstrate. The claimant describes exactly how he or she is going to demonstrate that talent, ability, or phenomenon. The claimant describes the level or rate of success he or she is able to achieve. The claimant then proceeds to demonstrate their claim. If they are able to achieve the level or rate of success they claimed to be able to, the test is considered successful.

The only way the JREF is involoved is in making sure the demonstration protocol, as designed by the claimant, contains sufficient controls to eliminate the possibility of a mundane explanation being responsible for a successful test. After the protocol has been agreed upon by both parties, the JREF is incapable of "reaching a false negative conclusion." Either the claimant is successful in demonstrating his or her claim to the level or rate of success he or she predicted, or they are not. It is only numbers at that point.

If the claimant genuinely believes that they have the talent or ability, but is unable to reach the level or rate of success that they predicted, they fail the test. They can claim all day that they truly do have the powers they claim, and that the result was a false negative. The JREF doesn't care, because they did not reach the false negative conclusion. The claimant did when they failed to demonstrate their claimed ability in a test they designed to the level or rate of success that they predicted.

That is why claimants are free to apply again after a year. If it truly was a false negative result, they have the opportunity to try again. The point is, it is not the JREF who reached the false negative result, it is the claimant.

[CFLarsen]

The woos need proof the JREF and its agents won't reach a false negative conclusion.

Stop right there.

First, it is clearly stated in the terms of the challenge that it isn't up to JREF and its agents to reach a conclusion, regardless of it being positive or negative:

All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, and no judging process is required.
Source (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html)

Second: What, exactly, in the terms of the challenge, makes it possible for JREF to reach a false negative conclusion, if a paranormal phenomenon has been demonstrated?

[Mr. Scott]

An excellent idea. Just handle the first step of identifying someone with supernatural abilities, and then I'm sure there'll be lots of folks here that can help with the rest (we won't let on that your claimant is the real thing--it'll be a more fun surprise for everyone that way). I look forward to news of your success.

Yes, sarcasm always clears things up ;). I don't think anyone has any supernatural abilities, so I wouldn't seriously suggest finding someone who has them to test the challenge. The challenge could periodically be tested with trickery -- just to see if it's possible to get any positive, false or not.

So basically the test is to have somebody win the challenge?

I have a better idea:

Why doesn't somebody claiming to have paranormal abilities JUST TAKE THE DAMN CHALLENGE!!!

The woos need proof? Since when?

Well, yes, the way woos think, proof is irrelevant to them. But if we could prove that the Challenge is winnable then it would defuse one of their arguments against applying. Isn't testing claims part of the purpose of the challenge, or is it the paper tiger too many woos claim it to be?

Stop right there.

First, it is clearly stated in the terms of the challenge that it isn't up to JREF and its agents to reach a conclusion, regardless of it being positive or negative. (quote snipped)

Second: What, exactly, in the terms of the challenge, makes it possible for JREF to reach a false negative conclusion, if a paranormal phenomenon has been demonstrated?

For one thing, the challenge also involves the application and protocol negotiations. A far as I can see, Randi is in complete control of those steps, and that is where it seems 99% of applicants flounder. Is it the applicant's fault? Sure! But one goal is to defuse potential applicant's complaints they are being sabotaged by Randi's pre-acceptance maneuvering.

Secondly, how do we know if, when the results of the formal test are supposedly self-evident, the money would really be forthcoming?

Here's my point: How are potential applicants to be assured that the million can be won by a successful paranormal demonstration if the challenge process has never been demonstrated to its conclusion?

The Challenge is like a Ferrari that's never backed out of the garage. I'm suggesting we take it down to a test track periodically. Or try and outrun smokie. It's not enough to point to every part of the car and say, "see, it should all work, but it's never been driven. We don't even like to start the engine."

I'll ask Randi if he wouldn't mind letting a skeptic disguised as a woo take The Challenge for a test drive once in a while.

Would some woos would simply claim that Randi was in on the drill and it was all part of his trickery intended to supress belief in the supernatural? Yup. Does that mean The Challenge should never be given a test drive? Nope. Testing The Challenge can only support its validity and never harm it, in my opinion.

[deBergerac]

I totally and utterly disagree with this summary.

I treat what scientists and priests tell me in exactly the same way, I consider what they say, what support they call on for their arguments and conclusions and so on.

However I will admit since only one of those two professions actually offers any evidence for what they tell me is the truth I do tend to be more willing to listen to a "new" scientist rather then a "new" priest.

I totally and utterly disagree with this summary.

I tend to listen very different to a priest and a scientist although not because of their professions. I expect a scientist to have evidence for his position if he is talking about something that is testable (not necessarily testable at the moment). I do not require of the priest to have any evidence for his position if he is talking about something that is not testable.

The point is that it is what is being discussed that determines what it is necessary to consider. If the discussion is about the value of human life or what is the best music, it is outside of science and an evidence-based discussion is not possible. If the discussion is about quantum mechanics it is probably not a good idea to listen to a priest.

[CFLarsen]

Well, yes, the way woos think, proof is irrelevant to them. But if we could prove that the Challenge is winnable then it would defuse one of their arguments against applying. Isn't testing claims part of the purpose of the challenge, or is it the paper tiger too many woos claim it to be?

Of course it's winnable. Just. Do. It.

For one thing, the challenge also involves the application and protocol negotiations. A far as I can see, Randi is in complete control of those steps, and that is where it seems 99% of applicants flounder. Is it the applicant's fault? Sure! But one goal is to defuse potential applicant's complaints they are being sabotaged by Randi's pre-acceptance maneuvering.

There is no "maneuvering" other that making sure that no trickery is involved, by any party. That's one hell of a defuse.

Randi is not in complete control of those steps: The protocols are negotiated together with the applicant. It goes pretty much like this:

Applicant: "For me to do it, I need to do A".

JREF: "Yeah, but that opens up for trickery in this manner (blah blah). How about B?"

Appplicant: "No, that makes my abilities go away. How about C?"

JREF: "Yeah, but that opens up for trickery in this manner (blah blah). How about D?"

And so on. If any "maneuvering" takes place, it is by the applicants.

Secondly, how do we know if, when the results of the formal test are supposedly self-evident, the money would really be forthcoming?

Because the results would be published, for all to see. It would be a devastating blow to JREF, should they still refuse to pay up.

Here's my point: How are potential applicants to be assured that the million can be won by a successful paranormal demonstration if the challenge process has never been demonstrated to its conclusion?

Just. Do. It.

The Challenge is like a Ferrari that's never backed out of the garage. I'm suggesting we take it down to a test track periodically. Or try and outrun smokie. It's not enough to point to every part of the car and say, "see, it should all work, but it's never been driven. We don't even like to start the engine."

I'll ask Randi if he wouldn't mind letting a skeptic disguised as a woo take The Challenge for a test drive once in a while.

Would some woos would simply claim that Randi was in on the drill and it was all part of his trickery intended to supress belief in the supernatural? Yup. Does that mean The Challenge should never be given a test drive? Nope. Testing The Challenge can only support its validity and never harm it, in my opinion.

If the woos won't be persuaded by such a test drive, why do it at all? Like I said, it's winnable alright: Just. Do. It.

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*

I'm mellowing out with age....Then you should apply for the challenge, since you are evidently currently getting younger.

Hans :D

[Mr. Scott]

Of course it's winnable.

Evidence?

[Gr8wight]

The Challenge is like a Ferrari that's never backed out of the garage. I'm suggesting we take it down to a test track periodically. Or try and outrun smokie. It's not enough to point to every part of the car and say, "see, it should all work, but it's never been driven. We don't even like to start the engine."

Bad analogy. By my count, three applicants suuccessfully negotiated a protocol and took the preliminary test last year. Sounds like a pretty good test drive to me.

I'll ask Randi if he wouldn't mind letting a skeptic disguised as a woo take The Challenge for a test drive once in a while.

::cough::Lost Angeles::Cough::

[CFLarsen]

Then you should apply for the challenge, since you are evidently currently getting younger.

Hans :D
Har-de-har.....come over here and let me stomp on your pinkie toe.

Evidence?
Just. Do. It.

[Aepervius]

Evidence?

I do not speak very well english so follow carefully here :
* applicant propose a protocol
* if JREF thinks it is ok it is accepted. If not JREF ask modification (mostly to avoid fraud or to make sure that any 3rd party can accept the results impartially as negative or positive without interpretation ).
* if applicant accept that final negociated protocol then the test can proceed.
* applicant do the test. Since due to protocol any 3rd party can judge the result, then it is immediatly nown whether it is positive or negative
* if positive randy has to cough up the dough
* if it is negative the applicant can try again 1 year later

1) where do you see anything or any point making the challenge unwinnable ?
2) how the hell are we to provide evidence of the challenge is winnable, baring winning it ourselves ?
3) woo will try every excuse in the book, even if you debunk those excuse, they still won't take the challenge. Maybe you know this expression : there is no worst deaf than one which do not want to hear. Thus trying to show them anything about the challenge is a WASTE OF TIME.

[Reno]

Applicant: I can telekinesethetize a bottle from one end of a table to another. I need compleete darkness for my powers to come forth manifestingly.

JREF: Fair enough, we'll use infra-red cameras to monitor the demonstration.

Applicant: I knew it!!!!!! Randy are maiking it imporsible to win!!!!!!!!! Theres no money in his bank and hes not giving it out anyway. Sylvia was right about him.

[macgyver]

Well, yes, the way woos think, proof is irrelevant to them. But if we could prove that the Challenge is winnable then it would defuse one of their arguments against applying. Isn't testing claims part of the purpose of the challenge, or is it the paper tiger too many woos claim it to be?


The problem is you've only proven that the challenge can result in false positives unless, of course, the claimant has actual paranormal ability. In that case, however, you haven't done anything but finally get a claimant through the challenge successfully - something Randi's been trying to do for decades....

I'll ask Randi if he wouldn't mind letting a skeptic disguised as a woo take The Challenge for a test drive once in a while.


You can ask him, but I'd be surprised if he saw any point to it. I certainly don't see the point.

I understand your argument, and the idea that the JREF needs to be a "kinder gentler JREF" so as not to scare away the skittish woos may have some minor merit. However, to suggest that the woos require evidence and proof so as not to be scammed by the JREF is the very definition of irony.

The proof is there, the legally binding documents are there, the woos are too lazy to do any legwork and see an easy "out" to explain why they don't take the challenge.

The fact that nobody has claimed it EVER is largely the point....

[Mr. Scott]

1) where do you see anything or any point making the challenge unwinnable ?


From what I've read of woo's complaints, since they are sure supernatural abilities exist, they assume Randi made the challenge unwinnable to save face.

2) how the hell are we to provide evidence of the challenge is winnable, baring winning it ourselves ?


Yes, that's the only way I can see to do it, but if testing the challenge is revealed to be an "inside job" then unfortunately we are back to square one.

3) woo will try every excuse in the book, even if you debunk those excuse, they still won't take the challenge. Maybe you know this expression : there is no worst deaf than one which do not want to hear. Thus trying to show them anything about the challenge is a WASTE OF TIME.

Randi agrees. Here's his reaction to the idea of test-driving the challenge:


A waste of time and facilities...

[Mr. Scott]

And now back to Lou...

Mr. Gentile's agents say (http://www.lougentile.com/modules.php?name=CHALLENGE_CLAIM) he'll be back on the air June 19. That's four days from now. Until then we can't fairly say he's AWOL.

Their web site seems to be a takeoff of the JREF web site. They even have a Million Dollar Challenge Clock (http://www.lougentile.com/modules.php?name=PR7) that echoes the JREF's Sylvia Browne clock (http://www.randi.org/sylvia/index.html). In a recent online poll (http://www.lougentile.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2185#2185) there, respondents voted that Randi was "sketchy" by a small margin.

I can't wait to see if any of these obnoxious guys will really take the challenge.

[KevinM]

I've come back to make some final factual comments and to leave it at that. I will not be bothered to read this message board again as it has become very clear to me that many of you are little different then the average religious zealot. You THINK your smarter, better informed and wise then any one who disagrees with you and you consider Randi's word innviolate. For thsoe who might be bothered to listen let me make some very real problems clear:
1) JREF has grossly mismanaged communication. Randi has sent exactly 1 communication to Mr Gentile(for the record I am the Co host of the Lou Gentile Show, the longest standing investigator for DVDR, and yes very close to Mr Gentile having co authored both the original press release that started the matter and the original challenge application this email is a direct result of my discussion with Mr Gentile via phone from his hospital room). No effort was also ever made to communicate Randi's illness(he claimed that every one in the world knew really which media outlets mentioned it since the vast majority of the general public have little to no idea who Randi is thats a very innaccurate statement), that Krammer was no longer handling applications, or that Randi had a new protocol to offer(which was first mentioned on a radio show and sent to the shows host but not Mr Gentile). In all fairness Randi had a perfectly legitimate reason for not communicating much of this as he had far more important things to worry about(of course one must love his need to kick Mr Gentile when he was down by complaining about a delay in response which was only posted after his accident).

2)Theres a major issue of integrity over the suggested protocol. Randi has not been forth comming so far and frankly he has presented a protocol that is flawed. With out some way to guarantee that those administering the test will not directly interfere to preserve there own tightly held beliefs there has to be a major change in protocol. Randi would not accept no more then promises of good intentions and honesty from us so why should we be expected to do the same?

3) I will not continue to stroke Randi's ego. The more I hear about this the more I sympathisize with others who've gotten involved like Sylvia Browne. Randi makes a big deal about not catering to test subjects egos(NOT that he should) but he obviously expects the test subjects to kiss up to him. JREF can take months to respond to a claim, ignore emails, and use unreliable means of communication but heaven forbid a challenger not sit up and beg when he wants a response. I'm not as old as Randi or Mr Gentile but I am certainly to older for these kinds of childrens games(and frankly the grade school name calling was completely uncalled for) and I would have thuoght Randi was also beyond this kind of nonsense. Just goes to show skeptics can act a lot like the religious nuts they loathe.

4) Finally in regards to the recorder. A lot of entertaining claims have been made about why it was discontinued. Prove it. Show me an announcement from Panasonic(I can be reached via email at kmeares@rocketmail.com) to that effect. Panasonics official position is that they discontinued the recorder to make way for new technology. Do the anomolous voices test out as human voices using recognition software? No they dont. Of course that only suprises the careless. A simple test of running a known speakers recording through the same soft ware from the same recorder will also not detect as human speech.

Regardless I'm done. I have no doubt mud slinging and egotistical rants about the great omnipotence of all skeptics and stupidity of believers will go on in my absense(why not it went on when I was here). Hopefully those who feel the need to act in that matter will try acting like the intelectuals they claim to be.

[Chaos]

From what I've read of woo's complaints, since they are sure supernatural abilities exist, they assume Randi made the challenge unwinnable to save face.*snip*

Let them prove their *********** abilities, for Ed´s sake. If they can do that, and Randi doesn´t pay, THEN I´m going to listen to their complaints. THEN. Not before.

[KevinM]

its probably obvious but i should point out any further comunication regarding the challenge will have to wait till Lou's recovered(and it will be a some time yet). Incidentaly to Chaos your also assuming that they haven't proven it there certainly are scientists that would say some of what Randi's denouncing has been proven.

[CFLarsen]

I've come back to make some final factual comments and to leave it at that. I will not be bothered to read this message board again as it has become very clear to me that many of you are little different then the average religious zealot. You THINK your smarter, better informed and wise then any one who disagrees with you and you consider Randi's word innviolate.

Yeah, yeah, the same old whining rant...

For thsoe who might be bothered to listen let me make some very real problems clear:
1) JREF has grossly mismanaged communication. Randi has sent exactly 1 communication to Mr Gentile(for the record I am the Co host of the Lou Gentile Show

Really? According to your own homepage, you are a cashier at a local grocery store (http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/id1.html) in a small town in PA. (http://www.city-data.com/city/New-Hope-Pennsylvania.html)

the longest standing investigator for DVDR

I assume you are referring to this:

an investigator and message board moderator for the Deleware Valley Demonology Research a link to which you can find on my links page. As to what that all means the dvdr is a christian based spirit investigation group. We differ from a parapsychological organization in that we beleive in the existence of angels and demons as well as human spirits and because when necissary we will involve the services of a priest of the families appropriate religion for blessings and the like.
Source (http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/id1.html)

Gee, you believe in angels, demons and human spirits....

, and yes very close to Mr Gentile having co authored both the original press release that started the matter and the original challenge application this email is a direct result of my discussion with Mr Gentile via phone from his hospital room). No effort was also ever made to communicate Randi's illness(he claimed that every one in the world knew really which media outlets mentioned it since the vast majority of the general public have little to no idea who Randi is thats a very innaccurate statement),

Now you are flat-out lying. As soon as it was possible, there was a notification on Randi's website. In these modern times, that's where you go first, if you want the best information.

You know...just like I did, when I found your own webpage.

that Krammer was no longer handling applications

"Kramer". It is completely irrelevant who handles the applications within JREF.

, or that Randi had a new protocol to offer(which was first mentioned on a radio show and sent to the shows host but not Mr Gentile). In all fairness Randi had a perfectly legitimate reason for not communicating much of this as he had far more important things to worry about (of course one must love his need to kick Mr Gentile when he was down by complaining about a delay in response which was only posted after his accident).

If you think Randi had a perfectly legitimate reason, why bring this up at all?

2)Theres a major issue of integrity over the suggested protocol. Randi has not been forth comming so far and frankly he has presented a protocol that is flawed. With out some way to guarantee that those administering the test will not directly interfere to preserve there own tightly held beliefs there has to be a major change in protocol. Randi would not accept no more then promises of good intentions and honesty from us so why should we be expected to do the same?

Please point out precisely how people can "directly interfere" with the test.

3) I will not continue to stroke Randi's ego. The more I hear about this the more I sympathisize with others who've gotten involved like Sylvia Browne. Randi makes a big deal about not catering to test subjects egos(NOT that he should) but he obviously expects the test subjects to kiss up to him. JREF can take months to respond to a claim, ignore emails, and use unreliable means of communication but heaven forbid a challenger not sit up and beg when he wants a response. I'm not as old as Randi or Mr Gentile but I am certainly to older for these kinds of childrens games(and frankly the grade school name calling was completely uncalled for) and I would have thuoght Randi was also beyond this kind of nonsense. Just goes to show skeptics can act a lot like the religious nuts they loathe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... :rolleyes:

4) Finally in regards to the recorder. A lot of entertaining claims have been made about why it was discontinued. Prove it. Show me an announcement from Panasonic(I can be reached via email at kmeares@rocketmail.com) to that effect. Panasonics official position is that they discontinued the recorder to make way for new technology.

What, exactly, are these claims, Kevin?

Do the anomolous voices test out as human voices using recognition software? No they dont. Of course that only suprises the careless. A simple test of running a known speakers recording through the same soft ware from the same recorder will also not detect as human speech.

Kevin, isn't there a alarm bell going off in your head right now? You need a specific piece of technology to achieve this phenomenon? Not just a kind of hardware, but one particular model from one particular vendor?

Can you tell me where in science we have to resort to one particular model of thermometer from one particular vendor to measure temperature?

Don't you think it is more likely that it is due to some sort of production flaw in the product itself?

Regardless I'm done. I have no doubt mud slinging and egotistical rants about the great omnipotence of all skeptics and stupidity of believers will go on in my absense(why not it went on when I was here). Hopefully those who feel the need to act in that matter will try acting like the intelectuals they claim to be.

There's a Danish saying: "Listen to a flea bark".

its probably obvious but i should point out any further comunication regarding the challenge will have to wait till Lou's recovered(and it will be a some time yet). Incidentaly to Chaos your also assuming that they haven't proven it there certainly are scientists that would say some of what Randi's denouncing has been proven.

In which case you should extend the same courtesy to Randi. Yet, you seem unwilling to do so...

[Chaos]

its probably obvious but i should point out any further comunication regarding the challenge will have to wait till Lou's recovered(and it will be a some time yet). Incidentaly to Chaos your also assuming that they haven't proven it there certainly are scientists that would say some of what Randi's denouncing has been proven.

Sure there are. There are also "scientists" who "would say" that creationism is the cutting edge of modern science, or that earth is a flat disc, or that sugar pills and tap water can heal people. You´ll notice that none of these clowns provide evidence for their crap, either.

[macgyver]

Something tells me that KevinM does a lot of <fingers in ears> "la la la la la la la la la la la I'M NOT Listening!!!LA La la la la la la la la"

[KevinM]

Frankly the hypocracy here is funny. I'm waiting for one of you to post according to the Book of Skepticism CHapter 1 Verse 1. You sound like religious nuts defending there beliefs not rational adults discussing a topic.

While its a waste(you can't see Randi as fallable) lets point out what the inteligent should not miss.

Yes Randi posted to his web site. Thats about it. Great communication there. LIke every other important detail about claims JREF felt no need to communciate to claiments this information. Of course this in the minds of the randi ites is perfectly acceptable. Kramer not being the person to email regarding the challenge wasn't important? Explain this please. To me it sounds ubsurd. Of course you'd probably rationalize it that we should read Randi's web site and his organization doesn't have to bother with proper communication.

As to the recorder whats your point? That one piece of equipment is currently the best at doing some thing isn't that unusual(no where did I or Mr Gentile once claim only this recorder could get EVPs most of them can). ITs just this recorder is the most effective at doing so. People claim it has some manufacturing flaw but where's the proof? If you can't prove it its speculation and I still don't see any actual proof such a flaw exists.

As to the test being flawed I would recommend any number of books on magic tricks. A magician of reasonable skill is capable of manipulating information inside a sealed envelope using a number of published methods. Even given that Randi will not be present hardly proves no one else JREF sends would not have the talent.

Frankly this is a waste of my time and yours writting about this. You will see me as a ignorant believer acting on blind faith no matter what I say. I will see you as fanatics so desperate to prove your belief system you can't even listen to any evidence to the contrary. I've met my share of zealots in my time and its always nice to be reminded just how many of them think they are inteligent and superior to every one else. Good bye, and good luck with the whole single mindedness thing I've got better things to do with my time(watch paint dry, count ceiling tiles).

[CFLarsen]

I assume this is for me.

Frankly the hypocracy here is funny. I'm waiting for one of you to post according to the Book of Skepticism CHapter 1 Verse 1. You sound like religious nuts defending there beliefs not rational adults discussing a topic.

Excuse me, but what "Book of Skepticism" are you referring to? Just so we know what you expect us to do.

While its a waste(you can't see Randi as fallable) lets point out what the inteligent should not miss.

Your poor spelling makes it very hard to understand you.

Yes Randi posted to his web site. Thats about it. Great communication there. LIke every other important detail about claims JREF felt no need to communciate to claiments this information. Of course this in the minds of the randi ites is perfectly acceptable. Kramer not being the person to email regarding the challenge wasn't important? Explain this please. To me it sounds ubsurd. Of course you'd probably rationalize it that we should read Randi's web site and his organization doesn't have to bother with proper communication.

Did Lou Gentile contact Randi and tell him of his own illness immediately after it happened?

As to the recorder whats your point? That one piece of equipment is currently the best at doing some thing isn't that unusual(no where did I or Mr Gentile once claim only this recorder could get EVPs most of them can). ITs just this recorder is the most effective at doing so. People claim it has some manufacturing flaw but where's the proof? If you can't prove it its speculation and I still don't see any actual proof such a flaw exists.

Don't you think it is the most likely explanation? E.g., like a certain type of radio might, due to design flaws, once in a while switches bands?

What is it about the specifications of this particular piece of equipment that makes it the best?

The onus is on you to explain this. Not on us.

As to the test being flawed I would recommend any number of books on magic tricks. A magician of reasonable skill is capable of manipulating information inside a sealed envelope using a number of published methods. Even given that Randi will not be present hardly proves no one else JREF sends would not have the talent.

Please point out precisely how people can "directly interfere" with the test.

[KevinM]

why I bother I don't know but as I'm bored why not.

As to what book of skepticism I mean I hope your joking. As should be patently obvious the statement was sarcastic. Meant to draw a comparison between the average bible thumper who parrots bible quotes as evidence and the average Randi devotee who parrotes Randi's or other skeptics words like they are gospel.

As to Lou contacting Randi imediately no he didn't nor do I expect you thought he should. Did I expect Randi to email Mr Gentile from the hospital? Hardly. Yet Randi is not the only person working with JREF(unless I am very much mistaken). An email at some point from some one from JREF is entirely reasonable. Mr Gentile didn't immediately notify about his problems but some one associated with DVDR and The Lou Gentile Show obviously has made the effort unlike what JREF choose to. If your curious you can also find a complete copy of all communication between Mr Gentile and Randi at JREF.

As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.

As to the onus to explain the recorder sorry but your quite wrong. My statement is that anomolous voices appear that can specificly answer questions. If the offered explanation is to be random noises produced by flaws in the recorder and furthere that the recorder was discontinued for that reason some one should substantiate that claim. Saying its the more likely explanation isn't good enough frankly since the most likely explanation is not always true. Especially when this most likely explanation is weighed agains the observed phenomenon (how does that explain a name given with in a minute of asking for an entities name or other specific explanations). Also simply put the originaly posted arguement was that not only did the recorder have this problem but that it was discontinued because of it. Can any one substantiate this claim? Its not Panasonic's official stance(panasonic proclaimed it was discontinued because of improvements in technology). If you can't substantiate it don't ask me or any one else to take the statement seriously. As to why this recorder works better then any other I honestly don't know. Does that change how often it gets voices or the clarity? No.

Again this is a waste of time. Most of the people here won't consider any explanation except that I'm a gullable idiot who follows Mr Gentile blindly. Of course I don't think much more of the people who treat me like this.

[pmckean]

Kevin,

Actually, I think you made some valid points. No one's perfect - James Randi included. I don't have all the facts, but from the missives you've posted, I would come to the conclusion that there has been a little bit of understandable miscommunication, regardless of the staunch, argumentative defence that's been presented by some posters.

I imagine the JREF is quite small, so when people are leaving and principles are ill, a little bit of leeway is required.

Also, people of a skeptical bent, like anyone else, are not always happy to concede strongly held opinions - it's human nature. As much as I try and affect neutrality as a position when discussing the paranormal, I can't help but secretly think: "this is utter nonsense" (EVP included, of course). I THINK I'd be happy for my current understanding of the world to be challenged, but for some, skepticism crosses the line from methodology to belief system (not an accusation I can back up with hard evidence, by the way, just an opinion). Belief systems are hard to shake - and I think it isn't paranoid of Kevin to want a protocol that would rule out cheating by EITHER party. No reflection on the protocols to date, incidentally, which I haven't read.

That this thread veered into unwarranted abuse, occasionally, is a little sad....

[CFLarsen]

why I bother I don't know but as I'm bored why not.

As to what book of skepticism I mean I hope your joking. As should be patently obvious the statement was sarcastic. Meant to draw a comparison between the average bible thumper who parrots bible quotes as evidence and the average Randi devotee who parrotes Randi's or other skeptics words like they are gospel.

If you spend a little time here, you will discover that this is simply not true. Randi does receive criticism, also from fellow skeptics.

As to Lou contacting Randi imediately no he didn't nor do I expect you thought he should. Did I expect Randi to email Mr Gentile from the hospital? Hardly. Yet Randi is not the only person working with JREF(unless I am very much mistaken). An email at some point from some one from JREF is entirely reasonable. Mr Gentile didn't immediately notify about his problems but some one associated with DVDR and The Lou Gentile Show obviously has made the effort unlike what JREF choose to. If your curious you can also find a complete copy of all communication between Mr Gentile and Randi at JREF.

Did Lou Gentile at some point email Randi/JREF to let them know why he didn't respond? No? Don't you think it is terribly unfair of you to criticize Randi for not contacting Lou Gentile directly, when Lou Gentile didn't contact Randi as well?

As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.

How could the contents be altered or the envelope be switched? Please point to the part in the protocol that allows for these possibilities.

As to the onus to explain the recorder sorry but your quite wrong. My statement is that anomolous voices appear that can specificly answer questions. If the offered explanation is to be random noises produced by flaws in the recorder and furthere that the recorder was discontinued for that reason some one should substantiate that claim. Saying its the more likely explanation isn't good enough frankly since the most likely explanation is not always true. Especially when this most likely explanation is weighed agains the observed phenomenon (how does that explain a name given with in a minute of asking for an entities name or other specific explanations). Also simply put the originaly posted arguement was that not only did the recorder have this problem but that it was discontinued because of it. Can any one substantiate this claim? Its not Panasonic's official stance(panasonic proclaimed it was discontinued because of improvements in technology). If you can't substantiate it don't ask me or any one else to take the statement seriously. As to why this recorder works better then any other I honestly don't know. Does that change how often it gets voices or the clarity? No.

Does "improvements in technology" tell you that the technology was not exactly up to standard? It happens, you know: Companies do make bad products from time to time.

Again this is a waste of time. Most of the people here won't consider any explanation except that I'm a gullable idiot who follows Mr Gentile blindly. Of course I don't think much more of the people who treat me like this.

You have not given us any reason to think otherwise. You are not prepared to consider natural explanations, your excuses wrt the test are invalid and you seem to have a grudge against skeptics in particular.

[Gr8wight]

As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.

Of course it's a valid concern that needs to be not only considered, but addressed. That's why the challenge protocol needs to be negotiated between both parties. You and the JREF need to work together to come up with a protocol that will be satisfactory to both of you. If one side wants to include a specific control, or eliminate one, the reasons for that must be stated clearly and concisely. So far, it appears to me that Lou submitted a protocol. There were aspects of it that concerned Randi, so he suggested changes. And that's where you stand. There's a lot of negotiation to come. That is, if Lou intends to follow through with his application. If he intends to drop it, and tool around the Internets claiming Mr Randi wouldn't test him, then the course you are currently travelling is the right one.

If he intends to pursue the challenge but is, as yet, still unable to do so, then the best thing you could do is to just go away, and come back when Lou is ready to proceed.

[Jeff Wagg]

I would jump in here, but to what end? The facts speak for themselves.

[macgyver]

why I bother I don't know but as I'm bored why not.


You honour us with your presence...



As to what book of skepticism I mean I hope your joking. As should be patently obvious the statement was sarcastic. Meant to draw a comparison between the average bible thumper who parrots bible quotes as evidence and the average Randi devotee who parrotes Randi's or other skeptics words like they are gospel.



Was this meant to be ironic? I think that you are projecting here. The parallels you are drawing are much closer to you and your beloved Lou Gentile. However, just because you are familiar with that way of thinking, doesn't mean that it applies to the JREF. Do we all share a respect and admiration for James Randi? Of course we do! Do we hesitate to correct him when he's mistaken, or out and out wrong? NO! And one of the reasons Randi has earned our respect, is that he takes that criticism humbly and with mutual admiration, and updates his knowledge base.

That's what it is to be a skeptic. To question everything, and demand evidence and proof from those making extraordinary claims. A true skeptic is not trying to protect a "belief system", there's no Bible of Skepticism that we use to try and shoehorn our observations into to make them agree with scripture. If it sounds like we're all quoting from the same book, it's because the basic concept of skepticism is simple and universal: "Don't believe it, until it's been proven scientifically"



As to Lou contacting Randi imediately no he didn't nor do I expect you thought he should. Did I expect Randi to email Mr Gentile from the hospital? Hardly. Yet Randi is not the only person working with JREF(unless I am very much mistaken). An email at some point from some one from JREF is entirely reasonable. Mr Gentile didn't immediately notify about his problems but some one associated with DVDR and The Lou Gentile Show obviously has made the effort unlike what JREF choose to. If your curious you can also find a complete copy of all communication between Mr Gentile and Randi at JREF.



You keep harping on the "poor communication issue". What will it take to help you get past this? An open apology? A gift basket and card from Randi? I seem to recall in an earlier message of yours that you even blame your OWN EMAIL SYSTEM FOR DELETING JREF COMMUNICATION AS SPAM:


Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam and we never received.


This is a result of YOU not configuring YOUR spam filter correctly, this has nothing at all to do with the JREF


As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.


Once Lou is up and about, then you can continue to negotiate the protocol. No testing will continue until both parties are satisfied.....next problem?


As to the onus to explain the recorder sorry but your quite wrong. My statement is that anomolous voices appear that can specificly answer questions. If the offered explanation is to be random noises produced by flaws in the recorder and furthere that the recorder was discontinued for that reason some one should substantiate that claim. Saying its the more likely explanation isn't good enough frankly since the most likely explanation is not always true. Especially when this most likely explanation is weighed agains the observed phenomenon (how does that explain a name given with in a minute of asking for an entities name or other specific explanations). Also simply put the originaly posted arguement was that not only did the recorder have this problem but that it was discontinued because of it. Can any one substantiate this claim? Its not Panasonic's official stance(panasonic proclaimed it was discontinued because of improvements in technology). If you can't substantiate it don't ask me or any one else to take the statement seriously. As to why this recorder works better then any other I honestly don't know. Does that change how often it gets voices or the clarity? No.



Part of the exercise is to understand where the voices are coming from, and whether or not there's a logical explanation (your explanation is anything but logical). This is why Occam's Razor is regularly applied in skeptical scientific inquiry. Here's a possible explanation for how voices could be answered:

Much EVP has been shown to have the simple explanation of being radio transmissions from devices such as baby monitors. Any electronic device can demodulate an AM or FM transmission, if the circuitry has a flaw that allows it to receive the radio transmission (to prove the simplicity of AM demodulation, make a crystal radio set this weekend, it will be especially good for EVP reception). If a microphone with radio transmitter was placed within range of the test, then it could pick up the question, transmit it to somebody speaking into a baby monitor, and the "answer" could be transmitted back to the Panasonic Digital recorder...

So here's a question: If these "spirits" can speak through electronic devices, is it necessary for you to audibly ask the questions? Couldn't you just write the question on a big card and hold it up? Then the "spirit" could answer through EVP? If you'd agree to this test methodology, then I think it might speed things up a bit towards getting the test done.



Again this is a waste of time. Most of the people here won't consider any explanation except that I'm a gullable idiot who follows Mr Gentile blindly. Of course I don't think much more of the people who treat me like this.

Agreed, you are wasting a lot of time. As for what most people here think of you, it is only based on the evidence you have presented. Lastly, I'm sorry your feelings were hurt, but what did you expect?

[RSLancastr]

So here's a question: If these "spirits" can speak through electronic devices, is it necessary for you to audibly ask the questions? Couldn't you just write the question on a big card and hold it up? Then the "spirit" could answer through EVP? If you'd agree to this test methodology, then I think it might speed things up a bit towards getting the test done.[Devil'sAdvocateMode]

This assumes that the "spirits" can see as well as hear, and that they are literate.

[/Devil'sAdvocateMode]

[macgyver]

A new scale of measuring this type of individual has been created by UnrepentantSinner in the Comedy:Answers in Genesis thread:

The Hovind scale.

I rate KevinM to be 4 Hovinds out of 5:

[KevinM]

Yeah Lou's not gonna put up with Randi's grade school chest puffing. Maybe after we get the suggested op on Lou they can shrink Randi's giant head.

[RSLancastr]

Yeah Lou's not gonna put up with Randi's grade school chest puffing. Maybe after we get the suggested op on Lou they can shrink Randi's giant head.And then they can operate on whoever is responsible for the content on Lou's web site and give him or her some writing skills.

Now that the ad homs are out of the way...

I hope Lou gets the operation and that it is a total success.

I also hope that he and Randi can negotiate a protocol acceptable to all parties.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Is there no new commentary this week, or am I just missing something?

[Apathia]

Is there no new commentary this week, or am I just missing something?
Click "James Randi Education Foundation"
(In Red at the top of the page)
(other links don't show it.)

[a_unique_person]

Do you actually think Randi doesn't want you to prove him wrong? He doesn't need the million dollars, but I bet you could use a little jingle in the jeans...


Nitpick. Randi doesn't actually have any personal access to the money, IIRC, it's held in trust on his behalf to hand out if the challenge is ever met.

Randi could quite easily make some easy money by just colluding with somone, and splitting the takings. After many years, however, he hasn't done that....

[Flange Desire]

Your answers are certainly the official answers to the issues raised. The problem is the paranormal community as a whole isn't buying those answers.

No problem Kev!
Don't get into a lather about it.
It is 100% normal for the 'paranormal community' to ignore the truth in these matters. It can't be helped - you can try to educate them all you like, but these fools are just stubbonly ignorant.

(excuse me while i catch up on the backlog - just returned from leave)

[macgyver]

Nitpick. Randi doesn't actually have any personal access to the money, IIRC, it's held in trust on his behalf to hand out if the challenge is ever met.

Randi could quite easily make some easy money by just colluding with somone, and splitting the takings. After many years, however, he hasn't done that....

Actually I think you missed my point.

Randi, as the result of a long and successful career, isn't in need of winning a prize of a million dollars. I wasn't suggesting that he'd need to win his own prize.

However, I WAS suggesting that KevinM and ilk could probably use the leg up.

My point was to illustrate that in terms of motivation for winning/losing Randi has little to actually "lose" by losing the challenge and Lou has everything to gain...

[macgyver]

(excuse me while i catch up on the backlog - just returned from leave)

Well, not surprisingly, Lou has withdrawn from the challenge, citing through KevinM that they "weren't going to pander to Randi's chest thumping" or some such bullocks..

I think they were upset that they couldn't use their defective digital recorder or something.

It's a shame, really, because I thought we'd actually get to see a test take place for once.

[a_unique_person]

Actually I think you missed my point.

Randi, as the result of a long and successful career, isn't in need of winning a prize of a million dollars. I wasn't suggesting that he'd need to win his own prize.

However, I WAS suggesting that KevinM and ilk could probably use the leg up.

My point was to illustrate that in terms of motivation for winning/losing Randi has little to actually "lose" by losing the challenge and Lou has everything to gain...

No, I didn't think you were. As I said, *nitpick*.

The next paragraph was gratuitous musings of my own.

[Psiload]

Check this out:

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-254257A1.html



Before the Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554

In the Matter of

Lou Gentile

Philadelphia, PA

1. In this Notice of Apparent Liability for Forfeiture
("NAL"), we find that Lou Gentile apparently willfully violated
Section 301 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended
("Act''), by operating an unlicensed radio transmitter on the
frequency 107.7 MHz in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.1 We
conclude, pursuant to Section 503(b) of the Act, that Mr.
Gentile is apparently liable for a forfeiture in the amount of
ten thousand dollars ($10,000).

So much for the Lou Gentile "Radio" show.

[Randi]

Gentile was certainly permitted to use his specialized recorder. Where did the notion that he couldn't, originate?

Randi

[macgyver]

Check this out:

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-254257A1.html





So much for the Lou Gentile "Radio" show.


Does that take his "show" off the air, or does it shut down the transmitter he was using to transmit "spirit" EVP messages to his defective digital recorder?

[macgyver]

Gentile was certainly permitted to use his specialized recorder. Where did the notion that he couldn't, originate?

Randi

Actually, that was pure speculation on my part, I was trying to come up with a "good" reason why he would withdraw.

In part it came from discussions about how one would shield such a device adequately from non-paranormal transmissions. But perhaps this wouldn't be necessary in the test protocol?

My apologies.

[Randi]

And, where did the notion come from that Gentile and I had protocol differences? We agreed completely on the protocol, then he withdrew! I wish that those who comment on such matters, would better inform themselves... Gentile is typical: much noise and complaining, confronting, and finally agreeing -- then backing out. The JREF has never backed out, ever.

Randi

[macgyver]

And, where did the notion come from that Gentile and I had protocol differences? We agreed completely on the protocol, then he withdrew! I wish that those who comment on such matters, would better inform themselves... Gentile is typical: much noise and complaining, confronting, and finally agreeing -- then backing out. The JREF has never backed out, ever.

Randi

I believe that notion came from comments by KevinM who is a cohort of Lou Gentile. He definitely gave the impression that he felt the challenge was tipped unfairly in your favour.

Most of us on this forum were attempting to straighten KevinM out on that perception.

Also, I've been following Lou's website to see what's been posted there regarding the application, and oddly he still has his "Silvia Browne" type clock ticking away which suggested the application was still ongoing, but a protocol was yet to be agreed upon.

[Kimpatsu]

I believe that notion came from comments by KevinM who is a cohort of Lou Gentile.
There's six centuries between them...?! :D

[macgyver]

There's six centuries between them...?! :D

Cute...

Well, these people are no doubt counting "past lives" as well, so I suppose your definition could be true!

[Chaos]

There's six centuries between them...?! :D

I can just see their insignia:
Legio I Credula

;)

[Foster Zygote]

I this age, in which we know that we are literally bathed in EM emissions of natural and artificial origin it astounds me that anyone hearing an extraneous signal from a radio receiver would conclude that he or she was hearing a ghost or demon. Right now as I sit in my living room typing this post there are innumerable radio transmissions passing through my body unseen. As a child, in the days before cable transmission, I can remember our television occasionally speaking with a strange, loud voice due to our neighbors ham radio transmitter. Hardware has improved much with the advent of digital tuners but extraneous signals are still as normal and expected as hubcaps along the highway. Yet we are told that this very natural phenomenon is supernatural. Don't get me wrong, radio is an amazing technology but I was under the impression that the practical end of electromagnetism was well understood as a science.

Steven

[Ducky]

If KevinM is still around, I'd like his comments on Lou's backing out of the application as noted by Jeff in the Challenge Applications section (and I am not looking for a fight, I was contacted by Randi about this issue in researching the Panasonic Device inisted upon by Mr. Gentile, and as of yet Panasonic has not returned my calls or letters regarding that specific device.)

I hope it is not his health that is preventing his continuance. What happened? Also, I apologize if this has been addressed in this thread before and I missed it.

Thanks.

[RSLancastr]

I hope it is not his health that is preventing his continuance.I first read that as "comeuppance." :)

[Humanists Harbor]

I googled "Lou Gentile" and "Randi" and came across this on Barnesandnoble.com on the page for Randi's "The Faith Healers":


Kevin (kmeares@rocketmail.com), Co-host of The Lou Gentile Show, September 22, 2003, 5 out of 5 stars
A Slam to Frauds Everywhere
As both a believer in the supernatural world and a Christian I can do nothing but stand up and applaud James Randi for this book. He goes through some of the biggest charlitans and frauds in the business and prove the lot of them are nothing but con artists protected by outdated laws. The particular example of Leroy Jenkins claim regarding challenging Randi to prove him wrong. As the reproduced advertisement blatently shows any reader this was grand standing at its worst. He did it for publicity knowing full well no skeptic would take him up on it because his premise was patently impossible. Why? For the same reason you can't prove that the moon is not made out of a particularly rock like brand of green cheese or that Santa Claus does not exist. Its impossible to prove a negative and simply enough thats not the point of science. It's Jenkin's responsibility to prove his claims some thing he is incapable of doing.

[RSLancastr]

I googled "Lou Gentile" and "Randi" and came across this on Barnesandnoble.com on the page for Randi's "The Faith Healers":Interesting.

[CFLarsen]

Gentile was certainly permitted to use his specialized recorder. Where did the notion that he couldn't, originate?
Out of the fox hole he dug for himself? ;)

[WillM]

I googled "Lou Gentile" and "Randi" and came across this on Barnesandnoble.com on the page for Randi's "The Faith Healers":


Kevin (kmeares@rocketmail.com), Co-host of The Lou Gentile Show, September 22, 2003, 5 out of 5 stars
A Slam to Frauds Everywhere
As both a believer in the supernatural world and a Christian I can do nothing but stand up and applaud James Randi for this book. He goes through some of the biggest charlitans and frauds in the business and prove the lot of them are nothing but con artists protected by outdated laws. The particular example of Leroy Jenkins claim regarding challenging Randi to prove him wrong. As the reproduced advertisement blatently shows any reader this was grand standing at its worst. He did it for publicity knowing full well no skeptic would take him up on it because his premise was patently impossible. Why? For the same reason you can't prove that the moon is not made out of a particularly rock like brand of green cheese or that Santa Claus does not exist. Its impossible to prove a negative and simply enough thats not the point of science. It's Jenkin's responsibility to prove his claims some thing he is incapable of doing.

We sent people to the Moon and they brought back rocks that prove the Moon is not made of green cheese. Santa brought me a DVD Player last year, so no additional proof is necessary.