Heat from water, potash, and electricity

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

It's not cold fusion, but I'm still getting a deja voodoo:

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F05%2F18%2Fncell18. xml

~~ Paul

[neutrino_cannon]

I dunno about this one, they might be onto something, but from the sounds of it it might be something small and silly.


Prof Smith said he was sceptical about the theory put forward by the company. He conceded, however, that scientists had also been baffled by the source of energy driving radioactivity, as the key equation involved - Einstein's famous E=MC2 - had yet to be discovered.


OH no! Not scepticism (sic)!

[JamesM]

calculations based on quantum theory, the laws of the sub-atomic world, suggest that hydrogen can exist in a
so-called metastable state that harbours a potential source of extra energy.

Anyone care to have a stab at suggesting what these calculations might be, and how likely they are to be the source of the observations?

[garys_2k]

My bet: measurement error. They mention the electrodes arc, that creates enormously difficult to measure high frequency power flow and the arc itself is entirely nonlinear.

After they sort out how much energy that cell really consumes they'll go away. If not, I'll buy one at Home Depot in a year.

[MRC_Hans]

Har, har. Kook alert, condition purple!
"We are offering to risk-share on it, as it will need about £200,000 to prove the principle behind it."

1) They want you to fund them.

According to the Gardner Watts team, it will take about six months to carry out tests putting the reality of the effect beyond all doubt.

2) But they dont guarantee that the stuff works

The company then plans to develop a prototype capable of turning less than one kilowatt of electrical power into 10 kilowatts of heat.

3) They go for small fry, when their "discovery", if valid, could change the World.

Mr Davies said: "The technology could be licensed by a company making household boilers for the domestic market. "

4) Trying to sell licenses for household use, when a true invention would sell to military for zillions.

He added that the plan is to have the first thermal energy cell devices on the market within two years.

5) Pay now, cry later

That's five sure kook signs, without even looking at the technical details!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hans

[garys_2k]

Well, they IMPLY it uses vacuum energy, another item on our woo-woo list.

Is that list still available? I'd bet there are more correlations with it.

Edit: Here's the thread. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15433&highlight=vacuum+and+patent+and+world+and+changing )

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Try a little Googling for "Gardner Watts". Can you find this company?

How about Christopher Eccles?

~~ Paul

[edthedoc]

Any electronic engineers here who can help with this:

I can't believe it's that difficult to measure energy in/out. Energy in involved measuring the wattage (volts and amps) and time. Energy out more difficult but they claim the energy is in the form of heat so some way of measuring temperature rise.

They seem just a bit reluctant to prove whether it really works or not. My woo-woo alarm is sounding, especially when I saw a picture of one of the scientists!

[Dr. Popalot]

If this doesn't make your baloney detectors go off nothing will.


" The findings were widely challenged and the scientists, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, accused of incompetence, fled America to set up labs in France."


I woneder why they picked France? Maybe it's because that's where Homeopathy was proven and written up in "Nature", at least until James Randi showed up and made them redo the experiment which it then failed.

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by edthedoc
Any electronic engineers here who can help with this:

I can't believe it's that difficult to measure energy in/out. Energy in involved measuring the wattage (volts and amps) and time. Energy out more difficult but they claim the energy is in the form of heat so some way of measuring temperature rise.

They seem just a bit reluctant to prove whether it really works or not. My woo-woo alarm is sounding, especially when I saw a picture of one of the scientists!
No, it is STUPENDOUSLY difficult to measure total power input to a very high frequency, non-linearly loaded device like the one described. You'd have to figure out the phase angles for all the frequencies involved (likely high MHz) and know how they were reacting to the varied impedances of the spark gap. Tough stuff. In fact, the BEST ways to estimate the input power to a gadget like this is to measure the heat it's making.

I expect this will go nowhere very fast.

Alright, I'm actually one of those "old energy suppression" agents just trying to keep the lid on new overunity technology. I'll get back in my black helicopter and fly over to my secret underground submarine base now.

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Dr. Popalot
If this doesn't make your baloney detectors go off nothing will.

" The findings were widely challenged and the scientists, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, accused of incompetence, fled America to set up labs in France."
Just to clarify, that quote is in relation to the non-discoverers of cold fusion, not this current experiment.

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by garys_2k
No, it is STUPENDOUSLY difficult to measure total power input to a very high frequency, non-linearly loaded device like the one described. You'd have to figure out the phase angles for all the frequencies involved (likely high MHz) and know how they were reacting to the varied impedances of the spark gap. Tough stuff.
While that may be the method used by the researchers, and the reason they've found an apparent energy surplus, it is a simple matter to work out exactly how much energy was delivered by the spark:

- First charge up a large storage device from a power supply, the equation that defines the charge transfer over time for charging capacitor is simple and well known.

- Next, deliver the required spark or sparks from the capacitor to the test apparatus.

- Finally, discharge the capacitor through a load and again the equations for capacitor discharge are simple.

The difference between the energy loaded onto the capacitor and the energy drained from it is the total energy that was delivered by the spark or sparks. Damn, that IS simple.

[MRC_Hans]

I guess you're both right: It is very difficult to determine the precise amount of energy delivered to the device, but it is not difficult to get a good estimate. These people claim that their device is outputting some ten times more energy than it receives; it does not require any complex methods to verify such a thing.

The input to the power supply providing the energy can be easily measured. The various losses can be estimeted to within 10-20%, and finally, the output can be quite precicely measured as temperature rise in the device.

When the results are evaluated, chemical reactions must be taken into account; it is quite possible that various reactions take place that give rise to some energy output.

Hans

[Trollbane]

Do I get this straight.. The guys induce a free flow of electrons to an aqua solution containing K+ ions and are surprised when a certain HIGHLY reactive metal that burns when it is in contact with water produces a large amount of heat?

Edited to add:

Quickly trying to figure out the reactions there it would produces something like this:

K(+) + CO3(2-) + H2O ----> KHCO3+OH(-)
KHCO3 + H2O -----> K + CO2 + OH(-)
K+H2O ----> KOH + H2 + energy

Im a bit too tired to sort out the multipliers and look for tables of thermal energy released on the reactions..

[JamesM]

Interestingly, Blacklight Power also claim excess heat from a light water/potash/nickel electrode cell:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/techarchive.shtml

Perhaps this is the source of your deja-vu, Paul? Maybe those supposed QM calculations invoking a metastable H atom involves the word "hydrino". Hmmm.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I sent a message to Dr. Jason Riley, the person at Bristol University who tested the aparatus. I asked him for a copy of the written report he produced about the device. Here is his response:The paper is totally confidential and remains the property of Gardner Watts.
Big announcement for something that is a secret.

~~ Paul

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I sent a message to Dr. Jason Riley, the person at Bristol University who tested the aparatus.

Jason Riley was my physical chemistry tutor for a couple of years when I was an undergrad. However, I have a feeling that he won't be persuaded to send a copy of the report to me simply for old time's sake.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

James, tell us more! Was he a reasonable fellow?

~~ Paul

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
James, tell us more! Was he a reasonable fellow?


Yes, he was quite a nice chap. I don't know if that qualifies him to pronounce on this technique, though (let us hope he has learnt the calorimetry lessons of cold fusion). Perhaps I should send him an email and see if I can get any details, although I've not seen him for about six years, so he won't remember me.

The problem is that almost certainly, he signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement, which (in my limited experience of these things) will probably have a limit of 5 or 10 years. If so - and my mind would be boggled by the incompetence of the people involved if he wasn't asked to sign a NDA - there will be no way he will be able to talk about this until it expires, even if he wanted to.

The next logical step would be contact Gardner Watts and see if they would let you see the report. I bet you could, if you were able to convince them you were a venture capitalist looking to invest some capital gains tax into something speculative. Of course, almost certainly, then you would have to sign a NDA and so you couldn't tell the rest of us...

Unfortunately, I'm no longer an electrochemist, otherwise I might have run into him at a conference and got him to spill the beans over some beers. I could code-name him "deep electrode" or something.

edited for punctuation

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

James, I can't find Gardner Watts on the Web. Can you find a phone number and give them a call?

~~ Paul

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
James, I can't find Gardner Watts on the Web. Can you find a phone number and give them a call?

I was looking for them via the web, too. And also came up with nothing. I'll try directory enquiries (probably tomorrow).

[JamesM]

Originally posted by me

I'll try directory enquiries (probably tomorrow).

Nothing on them via directory enquries, either. Hey ho...

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I guess you're both right: It is very difficult to determine the precise amount of energy delivered to the device, but it is not difficult to get a good estimate. These people claim that their device is outputting some ten times more energy than it receives; it does not require any complex methods to verify such a thing.

The input to the power supply providing the energy can be easily measured. The various losses can be estimeted to within 10-20%, and finally, the output can be quite precicely measured as temperature rise in the device.

When the results are evaluated, chemical reactions must be taken into account; it is quite possible that various reactions take place that give rise to some energy output.

Hans
Depending on the definition of "easily," that is likely not true. Very high frequency RF power is very difficult to measure. Very few instruments exist that can give true RMS current readings into the MHz bands, for instance. Combining those instrumentation issues with the nonlinearity of spark gaps and you have LOTS of trouble measuring true RMS power.

Here's more overunity (courtesy of Don Lancaster): Take a hardware store light dimmer, a 100 watt 32 volt bulb, a 100 watt 120 volt bulb and an "ordinary" AC ammeter and voltmeter. Setup the circuits so you have the 120 volt lamp plugged directly into the 120 VAC mains and put the 32 volt bulb into the dimmer circuit. Now adjust the dimmer so the 32 volt lamp is producing the same light (and heat, if you care to measure it) as the 120 volt lamp.

Finally, measure the current and voltage the 32 volt bulb seems to be operating at. With most instruments you'll find it operating at just about 32 volts and drawing about 1/3 of an amp, for a total power of about 11 watts! Now you have an overunity heater just as good as the one in the article!

The measurement error you just experienced is probably 100 times harder to resolve in the spark gap circuit due to the very high frequencies involved. Trust me, it is NOT easy to measure AC power.

[JamesM]

In case anyone wants to find out a little more detail on this, a patent application exists. The number is GB2343291. I found it through the European Patent Office (http://ep.espacenet.com/) - search for either the patent number of by the inventor name: Eccles. The patent application title is "Energy Generation".

Annoyingly, you can only download the patent as 33 separate PDF files, one for each page. Hats off to anyone who finds a way to download it as one 33 page document.

That said, it's still probably worth a look. All your favourites are there: talk of plasma discharges, fundamental change of hydrogen atoms, photon interactions, and - oh yes - fusion of both deuterium and light hydrogen. It's also satisfyingly vague about how this ties in with the known laws of physics.

It's highly reminiscent of the hydrino claims of Blacklight Power. Could there be some lawsuits in the pipeline?