Any good news?How many Jews died today?

[Cleopatra]

I decided to start a thread that will make those who enjoy to justify the Arabic terrorism really happy.

All you have to do to make your day, is to check on this thread.

So, let us count how many Jews less we had today...

3 this afternoon.. Tsk tsk tsk ONLY THREE???

Yes, I know, we had the man and the pregnant on Saturday. On Sunday it was another 6 bad Jews
This morning was 3 soldiers ...

So what is for dinner?

Come - on Hamas heroes... you can do better than that, I know the 6.000.000 is a high score for you but with the support you enjoy all around the world you will make it. GO FOR IT!!!
Exterminate them all!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1053311609384

[Incitatus]

You are far too eager. Remember the Hamas slogan:

"We will have no Jew before his time"

Rember also that these so-called "terrorist" bombings are very considered and cannot be rushed. You make it sound like any nutsie arab can just strap on some explosives and arbitrarily blow himself up. Nonsence. Do you have any idea how long it took to find then target that pregnant Jew? Must have been 10-15 seconds.

I am glad that I had this opportunity to clear this up for you.

Kikey Dradel -- Self hating Jew and explainer of abstruce Arab customs

[DaChew]

Do you count a pregnant Jew as one or two? Are there points for half and quarter Jewish? What about if you blow their limbs off but you don't kill them? Maybe there ought to be additional points based on style. Like, say you dress in traditional Jewish garb and blow yourself up on a bus. That kind of effort has to be worth something.

[Cleopatra]

I appreciate the witty or "witty" inputs but this suppose to be a celebratory thread for the terrorists lovers and since most of them can't take pride in their abilities of perception, we need to make things simple.

Let's concentrate on the burning issue:


How many less Jews live on this Earth right now?

[basil_magic]

Salam.

I'm sorry to read such a subject!

What I want to say...

Do you know that, there are about 3000 Palestinians (Women,Child (Baybe),Oldies and men) has been killed by Israelies fire since year 2000...

So, what's make the palestinies Bombing them selfs?

They like to see the BLOODS??
the answer is 'NO, NEVER.'

No one like to see the BLOODS as 'Sharoon' !


But when the young guy lose his family by Israelies fires and change to be a homeless by Israelies Bulldozers..

What do you think he will Thinking of?
Go to Arafat or Abu Mazen and cry over there?

As a normal person,,, he will thinking of take the revenge.

and that is the main cause for what's going on ..


If you leave them alone...They will too...


Thank you.

[Cleopatra]

What an original and BRILLIANT I must say, post...

[schplurg]

Were you expecting intelligent responses to this thread?

from Cleopatra:
I decided to start a thread that will make those who enjoy to justify the Arabic terrorism really happy.

......

...this suppose to be a celebratory thread for the terrorists lovers...Looks like basil_magic gave you what you were asking for.

[DanishDynamite]

Sorry to interrupt this serious thread, but I have a perhaps naive question for those who take an interest in the Palestine-Israel problem:

What exactly is the fundamental problem which hinders a resolution?

Is it the question of who gets to have Jerusalem?

[Cleopatra]

No we just can't decide on other things.

Beer or malt?
Pork or Beef?
Vodka straight or on the rocks?

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
No we just can't decide on other things.

Beer or malt?
Pork or Beef?
Vodka straight or on the rocks? I was being serious.

[PogoPedant]

Your Majesty, you have my congratulations. Never before have I seen anybody loose a thread this quicklly. Already in your opening comment did you imply a comparison with Nazi's and thus invoke Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html). 'Grats!:D

[Cleopatra]

Since it hasn't exploded another bomb during the last two hours, I take the opportunity to invite you to check some other interesting threads like this one :

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464&perpage=40&pagenumber=6

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by PogoPedant
Your Majesty, you have my congratulations. Never before have I seen anybody loose a thread this quicklly. Already in your opening comment did you imply a comparison with Nazi's and thus invoke Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html). 'Grats!:D

Oh now what Pogopedant? May I take this as a prediction that no other killings of civilians will occur?

Oh no no no no Pleaseee! Don't be so pessimistic... you won't lose your fun... Arafat and Co can assure you about this

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra:Since it hasn't exploded another bomb during the last two hours, I take the opportunity to invite you to check some other interesting threads like this one :
Forget history, forget who did what to whom. The Palestinians want a country. Israel wants peace. What is the problem?

Let us for the moment assume that the state of Israel included the Gaza Strip and the West Banks. Why doesn't Israel just apportion a cohesive piece of land equivalent in size to these two areas, and give it to the Palestinians in exchange for peace and bilateral relations? What is the problem?

[renata]

DD,
I invite you to read the thread Cleopatra referenced. Some of the problems about peace and each people's attitudes are demonstrated very starkly there.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by renata
DD,
I invite you to read the thread Cleopatra referenced. Some of the problems about peace and each people's attitudes are demonstrated very starkly there. Well, OK. It seems faiurly long, though.

I'm trying to get to the core of the problem. Doesn't anyone know what the core disagreement is about?

[Cleopatra]

Sorry pal, I am counting my dead compatriots here for the sake of the "Hamas fan Club". If you have to make a pro Hamas remark,you are kindly invited to.

If you are interested in discussing with me, you might join the numerous discussions elsewhere, although judging by these posts of yours... I am certain that I will survive if you don't do me the honour...

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Sorry pal, I am counting my dead compatriots here for the sake of the "Hamas fan Club". If you have to make a pro Hamas remark,you are kindly invited to.

If you are interested in discussing with me, you might join the numerous discussions elsewhere, although judging by these posts of yours... I am certain that I will survive if you don't do me the honour... Is this a "No"? In other words, you don't know what the core problem is?

(BTW, while waiting for responses on this thread, I'm reading the thread you refered to.)

[Cleopatra]

Such a Good boy!

Do me a favour as a noble western european; It's late here, I must go to bed, if another blast occurs while I am asleep, something very possible, please update the thread for me...

You wouldn't want the Hamas Fan Club staying uninformed would you?

[renata]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Well, OK. It seems faiurly long, though.

I'm trying to get to the core of the problem. Doesn't anyone know what the core disagreement is about?

There is no "core" disagreement. There are hundreds of reasons, layers of history, layers of resentment. If anyone pinpoints 1 single reason, it is likely to be wrong. I am sorry, but if there was a simple answer, there would be no issue. Although the thread is long, we had some interesting participation by posters for Syria. Their posts are illustrative of remarkable misinformation and resentment. In one example, one poster simulatentously believes Jews were invented by Persians in 5th century and crucified Jesus. Most of the poster posted their desire to kill Israelis that resist and ship the ones that don't "where they came from". Read the thread, really.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Such a Good boy!

Do me a favour as a noble western european; It's late here, I must go to bed, if another blast occurs while I am asleep, something very possible, please update the thread for me...

You wouldn't want the Hamas Fan Club staying uninformed would you? Goodnight.

Does anyone else know what the core disagreement is?

[Cleopatra]

Please Renata ,don't confuse our friend and not put more burden on his tiny Danish shoulders .. He will keep the thread updated with the new heroic acts of Hamas as long as I am away.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Please Renata ,don't confuse our friend and not put more burden on his tiny Danish shoulders .. He will keep the thread updated with the new heroic acts of Hama as long as I am away. Well, I'm up to page 2 of the thread, you referenced, and so far it concerns Jews controlling the media and other crap. Perhaps it will at some point address my question.

[Cleopatra]

And one more thing!

DD please be carefull not to lose track with the dead Jews...

It happened to me at the beginning.

Then, most of my friends and neighbours got killed and I learned to count corpses.

It's always difficult at the beginning but then you learn. After all, they are only dead Jews.

Consider this as a new experience... participating in a tale that wasn't composed by Andersen!

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
And one more thing!

DD please be carefull not to lose track with the dead Jews...

It happened to me at the beginning.

Then, most of my friends and neighbours got killed and I learned to count corpses.

It's always difficult at the beginning but then you learn. After all, they are only dead Jews.

Consider this as a new experience... participating in a tale that wasn't composed by Andersen! I realize that there is pain on both sides of this conflict. What I'm trying to understand is what the core problem is which hinders a peace. (Almost finished with page 2).

[renata]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Well, I'm up to page 2 of the thread, you referenced, and so far it concerns Jews controlling the media and other crap. Perhaps it will at some point address my question.

I am sorry if I am oblique. You see, beliefs of the posters from Syria and their Palestinian brothers is a major part of the issue. That thread shows that even though some of these posters are posting from Europe, that they are educated, their beliefs about Jews and Israelis appear to be illogical at best. It is extraordinarily difficult to balance a need for security ( and it really is a need, if you read some of their desires and expressed opinions) and granting freedom and independence to a Palestinian state elements of which are hardily attempting to erase Israel and are cheered by the rest. There have been 5 suicide bombings in the last 48 hours. The reason more people were not killed is luck and sheer perceptiveness by security guards. It is my belief extremest elements are attempting to provoke an overwhelming response by Israel. Israel has two choices now- go in and shatter the latest peace initiative or sit back, let PA do it, and watch potentially hundreds more perish. If you ruled Israel, would that be an easy choice? How many bombings would you endure before you took the situation into your own hands and perpetuated the cycle of violence?

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Well, I'm up to page 2 of the thread, you referenced, and so far it concerns Jews controlling the media and other crap. Perhaps it will at some point address my question.

Hamas does not believe in negotiating with jews, period. It appears that their considered position is genocide. So, the jews can dismntle settlements, support a palestinian state, dance a vigorous hora it makes no never mind. Hamas wants the jews dead, the jews don't want to oblige. That is the issue.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by renata


I am sorry if I am oblique. You see, beliefs of the posters from Syria and their Palestinian brothers is a major part of the issue. That thread shows that even though some of these posters are posting from Europe, that they are educated, their beliefs about Jews and Israelis appear to be illogical at best. It is extraordinarily difficult to balance a need for security ( and it really is a need, if you read some of their desires and expressed opinions) and granting freedom and independence to a Palestinian state elements of which are hardily attempting to erase Israel and are cheered by the rest. There have been 5 suicide bombings in the last 48 hours. The reason more people were not killed is luck and sheer perceptiveness by security guards. It is my belief extremest elements are attempting to provoke an overwhelming response by Israel. Israel has two choices now- go in and shatter the latest peace initiative or sit back, let PA do it, and watch potentially hundreds more perish. If you ruled Israel, would that be an easy choice? How many bombings would you endure before you took the situation into your own hands and perpetuated the cycle of violence? The opinions of some Arab posters and the number of suiciude attacks are certainly concerns, but I'm still left with an unanswered question. What is the core problem? (Reading page 3, and so far it is about allocating blame and who has the right to what. Hope my question is answered at some point.)

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Incitatus


Hamas does not believe in negotiating with jews, period. It appears that their considered position is genocide. So, the jews can dismntle settlements, support a palestinian state, dance a vigorous hora it makes no never mind. Hamas wants the jews dead, the jews don't want to oblige. That is the issue. Extremists groups will always be around. If the Palestinians were given a viable homeland and people got jobs, a life, etc, in exchange for peace, would Hamas still be a serious factor?

[renata]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
The opinions of some Arab posters and the number of suiciude attacks are certainly concerns, but I'm still left with an unanswered question. What is the core problem? (Reading page 3, and so far it is about allocating blame and who has the right to what. Hope my question is answered at some point.)

You just answered your own question. The core prublem is a fundamental disagreement over allocating blame and who has the right to what.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by renata


You just answered your own question. The core prublem is a fundamental disagreement over allocating blame and who has the right to what. No, these are bargaining chips. What I am interested in is what is it that the Palestinian people as such want, completely and unnegotiable, which the Israelis are unwilling to give. And remeber, I'm not talking about what Hamas wants, but what a political leader of the Palestinians cannot survive giving away.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

LOL. That's funny. The probability of a comparison for anything goes towards one as any discussion grows longer. Godwin's law is a truism that can be said about anything.

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Extremists groups will always be around. If the Palestinians were given a viable homeland and people got jobs, a life, etc, in exchange for peace, would Hamas still be a serious factor?

Hamas wants the Jews dead or gone, maybe both. You tell me how much of a factor they are.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Incitatus


Hamas wants the Jews dead or gone, maybe both. You tell me how much of a factor they are. They are a factor now, but would they be a factor if the Palestinians got a viable homeland and were supported to a degree that people had hope and a better life to look forward to (or at least their children)?

Again, what is the main problem? (I'm on the last page of the referenced thread, and I have yet to see it mentioned.)

[DanishDynamite]

OK, Cleopatra and renata, I have finished reading the thread. I'm sorry to say that I am no wiser. There was a lot of talk about history, rights, atrocities, etc, etc. However, as far as I could see, there was no clear cut mention of what the Palestinian people want, which the Israelies won't give them.

I still think the main problem is the determination of who owns Jerusalem. Comments?

[Mr Manifesto]

Once upon a time, the Palestinian people did not like being displaced by the Israelis. That is where a lot of the violence originated from. The argument was that the Israelis had no claim to a land just because of some reference in a 2000 year old book.

But now the Palestinians realise the lid cannot be put back upon Pandora's box. They only want their own nation. The Israelis find the idea of Palestine having their own nation too threatening. They also do not have to comprimise because they have the unquestioning backing of America- a country who will never be the no 1 fan of Arabs.

That is the foundation. The rest is all politics and rhetoric. Look no further than Cleopatra's comments in this very thread. I can understand she is upset because she is close to the subject but it is interesting that she doesn't regard the unjust death of so many Arabs too. There are too many deaths on both sides- both sides have blood on their hands and no one is innocent. The only solution is peace and a starting point is a nation for Palestine.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
...snip...

The only solution is peace and a starting point is a nation for Palestine. Obviously. So what is the problem?

[Kevin_Lowe]

From the outside looking in, it looks to me like the problem is that none of the political leaders involved really want peace.

The last thing Arafat wants is peace and democracy. He'd be out of a job, and quite likely he'd be justifiably tried as a criminal.

The last thing Sharon wants is peace and democracy. (Israel is not a democracy, as I understand it). He'd be out of a job, and quite likely he'd be justifiably tried as a criminal.

(The last thing the US wants is peace and democracy. They like a chaotic Middle East, because it keeps the oil market competitive and means they can always find an excuse to bomb the place if the natives get uppity).

So how is peace ever going to be achieved, if both populations are "represented" by unrepresentative thugs who have an incentive to keep the mess rolling along?

[Questioninggeller]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
No we just can't decide on other things.

Beer or malt?
Pork or Beef?
Vodka straight or on the rocks?

(A litt off topic, but)

Beer and some malt.
No meat.
No vodka... I like Whiskey.

[renata]

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


The last thing Sharon wants is peace and democracy. (Israel is not a democracy, as I understand it). He'd be out of a job, and quite likely he'd be justifiably tried as a criminal.





Well, your understanding is wrong. Israel is a democracy.
http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng_mimshal_beh.htm

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata
DD,
I invite you to read the thread Cleopatra referenced. Some of the problems about peace and each people's attitudes are demonstrated very starkly there.

I don't think you understand the irony of what you have just said.



On the Palestinian side, what choices do folks have?

Well, there's Arafat and his entrenched kleptocracy with its impressive Swiss bank accounts. If you're unhappy with that choice, there is an alternative: Hamas. Hamas stands ready to lead the Palestinian people upward, onward, and into the Middle Ages --you know, the good old days of tossing homosexuals off rooftops, cutting hands off thieves, and throwing stones at adulterers.

From a distance, I can see the Intifada going off all around the Palestinian people, like a slow-motion suicide bomber's coat ripping apart in all directions. I think this event, this Intifada, may be something new in the history of humankind: the self-genocide of a people.

When Westerners hear the inflammatory rhetoric that passes for political discourse and serious journalism in the Arab world (Great Satan, anyone?), they come away with a different impression. Who could forget these recent examples of diplomatic Arab discussion:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor...,908386,00.html
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...9567870880.html

(And this is only the lighter side, of course.)

From PLO to Palestinian Authority : The Palestine Liberation Organisation was set up by the Arab League in 1964 to represent the Palestinians.

And of course the Arabs invaded Israel twice since then to wipe them out.
To claim the Palestine or any thing other then an Arab pawn to destroy Israel is absurd.

What can I say? Typical of the hypocritical and hate-filled Arab world. I could go on, criticizing the rest of AN@S's so-called "truths" about israel. But it should be obvious that criticism from Syria (of all places!) about being a nazi that doesn't respect human rights is a bit like criticism from a 500-pound man about not eating right.

It is astonishing that AN@S has the hutzpah (to use a Hebrew word) to even start a discussion about human rights, frankly. Refresh my memory, AN@S: just HOW many of his own citizens did Assad kill in ONE DAY in Hama when they dared to oppose him? 20,000 or 25,000? It was something around that figure. Oh, and when are the next elections in Syria? Just asking...

If you are really a Syrian, AN@S, then perhaps--just perhaps--you should try to rid your country of the evil thugs who rule it, instead of trying to destroy israel. Even if you succeed in destroying israel, you'll find that you're STILL ruled by the same evil thugs.

[PogoPedant]

Cleopatra,
Please forgive me if I made light of you loss. You simply came across as more of a crazy half-brain, than the cool, levelheaded queen that I've grown used to over the weeks. I should probably have thought my comment through more.

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Oh now what Pogopedant? May I take this as a prediction that no other killings of civilians will occur?


Not at all. From my admittedly far away point of view, there's enough pigheads on all sides to keep the killing up for quite some time. My point was merely that the 6.000.000 dead comment was in breach of Godwin's Law.

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I don't think you understand the irony of what you have just said.

AUP, perhaps you should read that thread as well. Electrix has posted a refutation of a claim you made about 4 times, still no answer from you. Yet you had the time to repeat the same claim in another thread. Won't you answer her?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by PogoPedant
Cleopatra,
Please forgive me if I made light of you loss. You simply came across as more of a crazy half-brain, than the cool, levelheaded queen that I've grown used to over the weeks. I should probably have thought my comment through more.



Not at all. From my admittedly far away point of view, there's enough pigheads on all sides to keep the killing up for quite some time. My point was merely that the 6.000.000 dead comment was in breach of Godwin's Law.

Unfortunately, that is one of the aims of terrorism. Unfortunately, it also works. However, I see that attitude developing on both sides of the fence. Terrorism is something that causes people to feel terror, it is not just bombing, but also humiliation, theft, destruction, intimidation, etc. The State of Israel is just more sophisticated in it's tools of terror, Hamas more crude.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata


AUP, perhaps you should read that thread as well. Electrix has posted a refutation of a claim you made about 4 times, still no answer from you. Yet you had the time to repeat the same claim in another thread. Won't you answer her?

Because I have not had the time yet. The issue of discrimination against Palestinians is one that is quite complex, and one that I intend to research more. I have heard some very convincing anecdotal evidence of the racism and discrimination the Arabs are subject to in Israel, both Palestinian workers and Israeli residents. When I have time, I intend to start a new thread on the issue.

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Because I have not had the time yet. The issue of discrimination against Palestinians is one that is quite complex, and one that I intend to research more. I have heard some very convincing anecdotal evidence of the racism and discrimination the Arabs are subject to in Israel, both Palestinian workers and Israeli residents. When I have time, I intend to start a new thread on the issue.

Why start a new thread when you can simply respond to Electrix's post? She has been waiting for a long time. I note your lack of time did not stop you from posting the same exact, disproved assertion in another thread.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
They are a factor now, but would they be a factor if the Palestinians got a viable homeland and were supported to a degree that people had hope and a better life to look forward to (or at least their children)?

Again, what is the main problem? (I'm on the last page of the referenced thread, and I have yet to see it mentioned.)

As in Norther Ireland, the terrorism Genie has been let out of the bottle. It cannot be put back in there. Only time, education, consideration for each other, and each side's moderates to take action against their extremists will work in the long run.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata


Why start a new thread when you can simply respond to Electrix's post? She has been waiting for a long time. I note your lack of time did not stop you from posting the same exact, disproved assertion in another thread.

Because I do not have the time to research it fully and provide some proper links. As I said, I have heard of the racism Arabs are subject to first hand, from visitors to Israel. To partake a proper debate will take more time, which I simply do not have.

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Because I do not have the time to research it fully and provide some proper links. As I said, I have heard of the racism Arabs are subject to first hand, from visitors to Israel. To partake a proper debate will take more time, which I simply do not have.

Then you should not repeat the assertion you know to be wrong elsewhere until you complete your research.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
OK, Cleopatra and renata, I have finished reading the thread. I'm sorry to say that I am no wiser. There was a lot of talk about history, rights, atrocities, etc, etc. However, as far as I could see, there was no clear cut mention of what the Palestinian people want, which the Israelies won't give them.

I still think the main problem is the determination of who owns Jerusalem. Comments?

I can accomplish many things but curing your defiency in reading comprehension, my dear, is not one of those.

Hmmm Methinks that this will be thread that will never die...

[karl]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
I realize that there is pain on both sides of this conflict. What I'm trying to understand is what the core problem is which hinders a peace. (Almost finished with page 2).

There is no core problem. Like a family feud or a bad divorce process, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is self-perpetuating. Each side has a hundred supposedly valid reasons for hating the other.

What hinders a peace is that most of the world likes to pretend the conflict is still about negotiable issues, and that it can be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves if they are handed a sensible plan.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by karl


There is no core problem. Like a family feud or a bad divorce process, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is self-perpetuating. Each side has a hundred supposedly valid reasons for hating the other.

What hinders a peace is that most of the world likes to pretend the conflict is still about negotiable issues, and that it can be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves if they are handed a sensible plan.

Indeed very scary prospects:(

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra:
I can accomplish many things but curing your defiency in reading comprehension, my dear, is not one of those.

Hmmm Methinks that this will be thread that will never die...What's with the hostile attitude?

karl:There is no core problem. Like a family feud or a bad divorce process, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is self-perpetuating. Each side has a hundred supposedly valid reasons for hating the other.

What hinders a peace is that most of the world likes to pretend the conflict is still about negotiable issues, and that it can be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves if they are handed a sensible plan.Yes, there is bad blood going back decades. However, I presume that (all things being equal) neither the Palestinians nor the Israelies wish to live in a perpetual state of conflict.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the PLO recognized the right of Israel to exist and hasn't Israel likewise recognized the right of Palestine to exist? It then remains to decide which part of the Israeli held territory should become Palestine. Why hasn't this been done?

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:
As in Norther Ireland, the terrorism Genie has been let out of the bottle. It cannot be put back in there. Only time, education, consideration for each other, and each side's moderates to take action against their extremists will work in the long run.

Actually the terrorism genie was released out of the bottle in Ireland as long ago as 1916. The Irish government were very successful at putting it back in again, so much so that the IRA was extinct by the 1960's.

It's just becoming apparent that the British were very successful at infiltrating the IRA. If the evidence just coming to light is factual, then it appears that the British had spies at the highest level of the IRA leadership. Couple that to the successes the SAS enjoyed against the IRA in the late '80s and early '90s. So terror genies can be successfully put back in bottles.

But back to the issue in question. How true is it that Arafat has been talking out of both sides of his mouth for ages now? One the one hand he appears conciliatory towards Israel, but on the other can be belligerant and go into jihad mode, depending on his audience? Didn't he get a good deal a few years ago on a Palestinian state (97% of the West Bank), only to reject it out of hand with nothing to offer himself as an alternative? HOw sure can we be of Arafats recognition of Israel's right to exist?

It is a fact, is it not, that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank came about because of continued Arab attempts to destroy Israel? Why doesn't the King of Jordan want it back? Has he good reason to fear the PLO?

[shemp]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I appreciate the witty or "witty" inputs but this suppose to be a celebratory thread for the terrorists lovers and since most of them can't take pride in their abilities of perception, we need to make things simple.

Let's concentrate on the burning issue:


How many less Jews live on this Earth right now?

Pardon me, but I must correct your grammar. You should write "How many fewer Jews live on this Earth right now?"

[max]

Shemp
You are so rude and arrogant at times. Plus I don't think English is Cleo's first language.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
From the outside looking in, it looks to me like the problem is that none of the political leaders involved really want peace.

The last thing Arafat wants is peace and democracy. He'd be out of a job, and quite likely he'd be justifiably tried as a criminal.

The last thing Sharon wants is peace and democracy. (Israel is not a democracy, as I understand it). He'd be out of a job, and quite likely he'd be justifiably tried as a criminal.

(The last thing the US wants is peace and democracy. They like a chaotic Middle East, because it keeps the oil market competitive and means they can always find an excuse to bomb the place if the natives get uppity).

So how is peace ever going to be achieved, if both populations are "represented" by unrepresentative thugs who have an incentive to keep the mess rolling along?

See also: http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19510&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by hisham
we accepted it because many huge powers have interests in the existence of Israel in the region, those powers created a state in the most important strategic region in the world where they can manage their interests.

You must don't believe that the problem is the suicide bombings or something like that because Israel created the roots of Hamas since 70s. we as people "am not talking about government now" really looking for Pease, but what we must do if this state can't live without war, they believe Israel will not live without it, am really sorry for Jews because they are used for playing this roll.

[Richard G]

What exactly is the fundamental problem which hinders a resolution?

Ignorant, blood thirsty, savage, fundamentalist Palestinian terrorists who refuse to behave civilized, and abide by the most basic of laws. They are lawless, murdering barbarians.

If ever there was a prize for the biggest tumor/ wart on the ass of humanity, it would go to the Palestinians.

[Tmy]

The problem is that you have terror organizatiosn vs a military.

Sheron has complete control over the military, the Pali leaders do not have the same. Ist not like the Pali's have thsi monolithic resistance. Its a mix of groups wh different agendas.

Every time the leaders come close to peacec you'll just have some rouge terror group turn up the bombings in order to destroy the process. Sad thing is that it works every time.

[karl]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
karl:Yes, there is bad blood going back decades. However, I presume that (all things being equal) neither the Palestinians nor the Israelies wish to live in a perpetual state of conflict.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the PLO recognized the right of Israel to exist and hasn't Israel likewise recognized the right of Palestine to exist? It then remains to decide which part of the Israeli held territory should become Palestine. Why hasn't this been done?

Who has the authority to make a decision that will be unpopular with both sides? The UN? Not while Israel can rely on an American veto. The Israelis and the Palestinians themselves? Not while so many people are convinced they can negotiate a better deal if they send in a few more tanks or suicide bombers first.

It's a hopeless situation. As an outside observer I always feel like saying, "Look, I don't care who started it. It doesn't matter who has the historical rights to what. I don't give a rat's ass whether the innocent deaths this week were a provocation or a retaliation. It's totally irrelevant at this point. Dozens, maybe hundreds of people on both sides will die each year as long as you keep this insane conflict going." But the answer from everyone is invariably, "Tell that to them! We're just defending ourselves."

[DaChew]

If you would like to really see exactly what the main issue of contention between the two sides is, you need look no further than at Arafat's shoulder. On the arm of his spiffy uniform is a patch. The patch is a drawing of a map (a map very familiar to Palestinian children as it is the one used in all of their textbooks) The map shows the entire area including Israel as Palestine.

The answer is quite simple. The Palestinians (a misnomer by the way) insist that Israel not exist. The Israelis would rather prefer to exist. That is the main point of contention.

[DanishDynamite]

karl:Who has the authority to make a decision that will be unpopular with both sides? The UN? Not while Israel can rely on an American veto. The Israelis and the Palestinians themselves? Not while so many people are convinced they can negotiate a better deal if they send in a few more tanks or suicide bombers first.Yes, but if both sides agree to something, no external force is required. So far, they agree that the other side has a right to exist. The next step would be a demarcation of Israel and Palestine. Since this hasn't happened, I assume that this is where the problem is.
It's a hopeless situation. As an outside observer I always feel like saying, "Look, I don't care who started it. It doesn't matter who has the historical rights to what. I don't give a rat's ass whether the innocent deaths this week were a provocation or a retaliation. It's totally irrelevant at this point. Dozens, maybe hundreds of people on both sides will die each year as long as you keep this insane conflict going." But the answer from everyone is invariably, "Tell that to them! We're just defending ourselves." Well said. This is exactly my feeling as well.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by DaChew
If you would like to really see exactly what the main issue of contention between the two sides is, you need look no further than at Arafat's shoulder. On the arm of his spiffy uniform is a patch. The patch is a drawing of a map (a map very familiar to Palestinian children as it is the one used in all of their textbooks) The map shows the entire area including Israel as Palestine.

The answer is quite simple. The Palestinians (a misnomer by the way) insist that Israel not exist. The Israelis would rather prefer to exist. That is the main point of contention. My understanding was that Arafat had acknowledged the right of Israel to exist.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
My understanding was that Arafat had acknowledged the right of Israel to exist.

Are you sure about this?

What Arafat thinks doesn't matter anymore, anyway.
He is History for the International Community.

[DanishDynamite]

Tmy:Every time the leaders come close to peacec you'll just have some rouge terror group turn up the bombings in order to destroy the process. Sad thing is that it works every time. It is sad indeed. And I simply don't understand why it works. I can understand how it could work for a few years. But I don't understand why it works after more than two decades, unless there is some fundamental disagreement.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Are you sure about this?

What Arafat thinks doesn't matter anymore, anyway.
He is History for the International Community. Well, according to this, (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9812/14/clinton.gaza.03/) it would seem that such is the case.

I don't know if Arafat is irrelevant, but the recognition of Israel's right to exist was (according to the above link) done by the Palestine National Council.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Well, according to this, (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9812/14/clinton.gaza.03/) it would seem that such is the case.

I don't know if Arafat is irrelevant, but the recognition of Israel's right to exist was (according to the above link) done by the Palestine National Council.

Yes I had to ask you because you declared ignorance on the subject.

As you know (? ) Arafat is excluded from the Peace Talks, so, for the International Community is History.

[DanishDynamite]

Cleopatra Yes I had to ask you because you declared ignorance on the subject.I don't recall declaring ignorance. And if I had, why not just enlighten me?
As you know (? ) Arafat is excluded from the Peace Talks, so, for the International Community is History. I don't care if Arafat or Billybob is representing the Palestinians. My question, which you have so far avoided answering, is what is the main problem. Care to answer?

[Cleopatra]

I have already replied but you didn't believe me. This is not my fault.

Beer or Malt?

Straight vodka or on the rocks?

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I have already replied but you didn't believe me. This is not my fault.

Beer or Malt?

Straight vodka or on the rocks? Thanks. Your insight is beyond words. :rolleyes:

[Cleopatra]

You are welcome Danish Dynamite. Always at your disposal :)

When you do some reading on the subject and when you will get over your fears of serious debating, it will be an honour for me -and the others I guess- who spent time in composing serious answers to the appropriate thread, to discuss with you.


Until then,

Love and Kisses.

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata

one poster simulatentously believes Jews were invented by Persians in 5th century and crucified Jesus.

Please see Dr Michael Magee's book on How Persia Created Judaism (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0180PersiaJudaism.html)

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I have already replied but you didn't believe me. This is not my fault.

Beer or Malt?

Straight vodka or on the rocks?

You are not helpful in anyway what-so-ever, please leave.

Your behaviour and attitude are more appropriate for a bunch of twelve year olds. Grow up.

Adam

[Cleopatra]

Renata, will you ever read a book??? You illiterate girl!!!! :p

Hey Hisham I have homework for you: Check in Google what the term "Romaniotes Jews" mean ;)

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You are welcome Danish Dynamite. Always at your disposal :)

When you do some reading on the subject and when you will get over your fears of serious debating, it will be an honour for me -and the others I guess- who spent time in composing serious answers to the appropriate thread, to discuss with you.


Until then,

Love and Kisses. Always at my disposal? And yet you refuse to answer the single question I posted.

Will you answer if I ask the question in "the appropriate thread"?

[Cleopatra]

Of course I will. Try me Danish Dynamite.At least, give me some credit.

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Of course I will. Try me Danish Dynamite.At least, give me some credit.

You have shown no reason to give you any credit at all and he has tried you, multiple times.

Adam

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Cleopatra:
Forget history, forget who did what to whom. The Palestinians want a country. Israel wants peace. What is the problem?

Let us for the moment assume that the state of Israel included the Gaza Strip and the West Banks. Why doesn't Israel just apportion a cohesive piece of land equivalent in size to these two areas, and give it to the Palestinians in exchange for peace and bilateral relations? What is the problem?

Not sure. Last time Arafat turned down the largest offer of Land Israel had ever provided or is likely to offer again. Seems the PLA logo tells more about their motives than their ostensive policy.*

*The Palestinian Authority logo depicts palestine as including all of Israel.

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by karl
It's a hopeless situation. As an outside observer I always feel like saying, "Look, I don't care who started it. It doesn't matter who has the historical rights to what. I don't give a rat's ass whether the innocent deaths this week were a provocation or a retaliation. It's totally irrelevant at this point. Dozens, maybe hundreds of people on both sides will die each year as long as you keep this insane conflict going." But the answer from everyone is invariably, "Tell that to them! We're just defending ourselves."

9 out of 10 suicide bombers are stopped. That rate would be impossible were it not for the proactive hunting of terrorists - a strategic reality acknowledged by the American handing of their own terrorist problems.

The process of peace inevitably demands that Israel make itself more vulnerable to terrorist attack. This is a steep price to pay when groups aiming to destroy it are still active and internationally popular.

[DanishDynamite]

slimshady2357:You have shown no reason to give you any credit at all and he has tried you, multiple times.Indeed. It appears that Cleopatra suffers from a fear of engaging in serious debate. :)

synaesthesia:
Not sure. Last time Arafat turned down the largest offer of Land Israel had ever provided or is likely to offer again. Seems the PLA logo tells more about their motives than their ostensive policy.*

*The Palestinian Authority logo depicts palestine as including all of Israel. So, why did he turn it down? This is still my question. What is the fundamental requirement which the Palestinians (or the Israelies, for that matter) want, and which the other side is unwilling to give?

[DanishDynamite]

synaesthesia:The process of peace inevitably demands that Israel make itself more vulnerable to terrorist attack. This is a steep price to pay when groups aiming to destroy it are still active and internationally popular. Why is this the case? Couldn't Israel just shut its borders to the newly established Palestine?

[Cleopatra]

Yes, indeed, Danish Dynamite. If you check on my posts this is crystal clear :)

I am terribly afraid to debate, especially with you, who seems so qualified on the issue.

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Renata, will you ever read a book??? You illiterate girl!!!! :p

Hey Hisham I have homework for you: Check in Google what the term "Romaniotes Jews" mean ;)

I am such a bad girl! Shame on me! Of course Jews were invented by Persians in 5th century CE and then they invented a time machine, so they could go back in time and take credit for crucifying Jesus!

I have such a long way to go before educating myself.

[Cleopatra]

Hmmmm and according to other" reliable sources" they flew from Persia, came to Ancient Athens and it was them who sentenced Socrates to Death ... :eek:

If the USA Media wasn't so biased, everybody would know the truth now...

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yes, indeed, Danish Dynamite. If you check on my posts this is crystal clear :)

I am terribly afraid to debate, especially with you, who seems so qualified on the issue. Glad to see your serious response in the "appropriate thread". I'm especially glad to see that my "uninformed" initial evalution of the core problem was shown to have merit.

Given that I am uninformed (which I will acknowledge to some degree) and yet was able to ascertain the main disagreement, makes me wonder. Other, more qualified people, must have reached the same conclusion. So why has no acceptable compromise surfaced?

[DaChew]

So why has no acceptable compromise surfaced?

The reason has been pointed out twice. Arafat's goal is not the establishment of a Palestinian homeland. It is the destruction of Israel. The PLO logo, the patch that he still wears on his arm (regardless of whether he acknowledges Israel's right to exist), is that of a Palestine that includes all of the area that is Israel. If Arafat were to agree to any deal that establishes a Palestinian homeland alongside Israel it would delegitimize any further claim to any portion of Israel. Since his goal (again, look at his shoulder) is actually the replacement of all of Israel by Palestine, he cannot compromise.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by DaChew


The reason has been pointed out twice. Arafat's goal is not the establishment of a Palestinian homeland. It is the destruction of Israel. The PLO logo, the patch that he still wears on his arm (regardless of whether he acknowledges Israel's right to exist), is that of a Palestine that includes all of the area that is Israel. If Arafat were to agree to any deal that establishes a Palestinian homeland alongside Israel it would delegitimize any further claim to any portion of Israel. Since his goal (again, look at his shoulder) is actually the replacement of all of Israel by Palestine, he cannot compromise. I don't give two hoots about Arafat or his shoulder patch. What is important is what the Palestinian leadership has committed itself to.

[karl]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
karl:Yes, but if both sides agree to something, no external force is required. So far, they agree that the other side has a right to exist. The next step would be a demarcation of Israel and Palestine. Since this hasn't happened, I assume that this is where the problem is.

Sure, but one's right to exist and the other side's right to exist aren't (necessarily) mutually exclusive. Ownership of specific territory is. So is innocence, truth and heritage. The other side can't get some without you giving up some. Those things matter often more to people than their general well-being.

(I mean, you just have to take a quick look at this forum to realize most contributors would rather type in 500-word messages explaining why their opponent is a dishonest, ignorant numbskull over and over again than do something meaningful with their time. I do this myself all to often, even without fifty years of emotion invested in the issues.)

If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had been between two individuals, it would have been settled in civil court, or possibly on Judge Judy. I think we need to acknowledge that typical human small-mindedness sometimes extends to a national level -- and that beyond some point it's simply impossible for either side to budge an inch without the threat of outside force.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Obviously. So what is the problem?

Religion.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DaChew


The reason has been pointed out twice. Arafat's goal is not the establishment of a Palestinian homeland. It is the destruction of Israel. The PLO logo, the patch that he still wears on his arm (regardless of whether he acknowledges Israel's right to exist), is that of a Palestine that includes all of the area that is Israel. If Arafat were to agree to any deal that establishes a Palestinian homeland alongside Israel it would delegitimize any further claim to any portion of Israel. Since his goal (again, look at his shoulder) is actually the replacement of all of Israel by Palestine, he cannot compromise.

yes it is all his fault.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/20/1053196581769.html

In fact, since we can assign all blame to arafat, we do not need to question the situation any further, and can act accordingly.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


Religion.

both sides are religious.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by synaesthesia


Not sure. Last time Arafat turned down the largest offer of Land Israel had ever provided or is likely to offer again. Seems the PLA logo tells more about their motives than their ostensive policy.*

*The Palestinian Authority logo depicts palestine as including all of Israel.

And Israel refers to the West Bank as Samaria and Judea. Israelis can do all the archeological digs they want, Palestinians have to ask for permission, which is usually refused.

[Jesse]

There is clear and rampant Anti-Semitism in this thread.

[Cleopatra]

My my my... I left you alone for a while Unique and you went after the mignons...

It's not very kind to distribute...inaccuracies... None in Israel really uses the term Judea and Samaria anymore...unless you mean the Extreme Right.

If yes don't present it as the leading "political thought" in Israel.

I am very sorry when such things are coming from you Unique.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jesse
There is clear and rampant Anti-Semitism in this thread.

No I hate all people with big noses equally.

[hisham]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


both sides are religious.
That is right unique_person, and who control this game is trying to force this side in the conflict

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
My my my... I left you alone for a while Unique and you went after the mignons...

It's not very kind to distribute...inaccuracies... None in Israel really uses the term Judea and Samaria anymore...unless you mean the Extreme Right.

If yes don't present it as the leading "political thought" in Israel.

I am very sorry when such things are coming from you Unique.

From what I understand, that is what these areas are referred to officially by the Israeli Government.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_judea_samaria.php

http://www.folklore.org.il/colleges/eyosh.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0hbb0

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/westbank.html

http://www.acpr.org.il/publications/policy-papers/pp061-xs.html

http://rotter.net/israel/

http://webinstituteforteachers.org/99/teams/israel/samaria.htm

I can find more links on google for you Cleo, but as I have found already, you know how to use Google yourself.

[Jesse]

Originally posted by hisham
and who control this game Who? What? Where?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jesse
There is clear and rampant Anti-Semitism in this thread.

There is clear an rampant anti-Arab racism in this thread too.

Originally posted by Richard G
Ignorant, blood thirsty, savage, fundamentalist Palestinian terrorists who refuse to behave civilized, and abide by the most basic of laws. They are lawless, murdering barbarians.

If ever there was a prize for the biggest tumor/ wart on the ass of humanity, it would go to the Palestinians.

It's a pity that anti-Arab racism doesn't get its own name like anti-Jewish racism does. As the ******* of the new millenium the Arabs are too lowly for such niceties. Perhaps fifty years from now after a holocaust in which millions of Arabs are slaughtered they will be allowed the moral high ground- to criticise freely and label all their critics as "anti-(Arab version of) Semitic". I wonder whose turn it will be then. Maybe the whites?

[Cleopatra]

You never stop to amaze me Unique.

I wish you had the courage to stand up for your beliefs, it would made the discussion interesting.

In your original post it was obvious for those who can read that you referred to the Judea and Samaria as the mainstream ideology that was, indeed, during the 50ies.

Now what? Are you trying to teach us geography?

It's not too late Unique, you can stand up and speak.

Get this feeling out of you Unique! I have said it before but I will refresh your memory.

Say what you believe and I will stand next to you to confront those who will accuse you of anti-semitism. No need for subtle comments. Say it loudly! I am here.

[Jesse]

Mr. Manifesto, maybe this link (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19777) will educate someone.

[hisham]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


both sides are religious.
unique_person, Yesterday, the israeli interior minister requested the annulment of the immediate granting of citizenship, based on the law of return, to individuals who convert to judaism .

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You never stop to amaze me Unique.

I wish you had the courage to stand up for your beliefs, it would made the discussion interesting.

In your original post it was obvious for those who can read that you referred to the Judea and Samaria as the mainstream ideology that was, indeed, during the 50ies.

Now what? Are you trying to teach us geography?

It's not too late Unique, you can stand up and speak.

Get this feeling out of you Unique! I have said it before but I will refresh your memory.

Say what you believe and I will stand next to you to confront those who will accuse you of anti-semitism. No need for subtle comments. Say it loudly! I am here.

Let us get back to the point, Cleo, which was started by the claim that Palestinians want to destroy Israel. I pointed out that Isreal wants to destroy Palestine.

I can understand you are upset that Israelis are being killed. Palestinians are also being killed. There is a war on, and it has being going on for many years. Fortunately, it is not as bad as some wars, such as WWI.

In time, people will get sick of killing, and give up their claims that are not that important, and choose peace. We have not reached that point yet.

[Cleopatra]

I am not upset. I am terrified. I am afraid that the whole Peace process will blow up again and we will have another 50 years of violence.

I am fed up with the situation, I dare not check my e-mails in the morning for fear I will learn something bad for the few friends ( Israelis AND Palestinians) that have been left alive.

My only weapon is my vote and the SOME knowledge I have accumulated over the years in order to be able to fight the extremes starting with my country.
I hate the extremes and above all I hate extremists of both sides

BUT also I am a citizen, I have obligations towards my country, as Sophocles, centuries before Nationalism was invented, wrote in "Antigone" : " Our country is the ship we sail in. Our faith is related to this ship".

It's easy to critize others when you live far away and your concern about the issue ends by the moment you switch your pc off. I know this because I do the same with other issues , for example I haven't lost my sleep for the civil war in East Timor...

But , when we are not talking about East Timor but about Jerusalem, the city I see in my dreams, you must expect me to be at least upset.

Anyway, I don't blame you or anybody else now because however ridiculous it might sound, the only people who know how we feel are the Palestinians and not some trolls from Syria who refuse to deal with their national problems.

End of the parenthesis.

Back to the "Palace of Ptolemies" now and to our debate.

[DaChew]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
I don't give two hoots about Arafat or his shoulder patch. What is important is what the Palestinian leadership has committed itself to.

Those two sentences completely contradict themselves. Arafat IS THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP and he wears what he is committed to right on his shoulder. This is the third time it's been pointed out to you.

[DaChew]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


yes it is all his fault.

In fact, since we can assign all blame to arafat, we do not need to question the situation any further, and can act accordingly.

At this point, we CAN assign all blame to Arafat. He was offered nearly everything he SAID he wanted and instead he launched the Intifada. Again, the only reason he turned it down is because it would have deligitimized any further claim to any portion of Israel.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
My only weapon is my vote

Bad try to demonstrate "Israel is a democratic state" :D

the only people who know how we feel are the Palestinians and not some trolls from Syria who refuse to deal with their national problems.

Look for the tensions in your society between religious and secular, left and right, I think you believe it has reached crisis point.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by DaChew


At this point, we CAN assign all blame to Arafat. He was offered nearly everything he SAID he wanted and instead he launched the Intifada. Again, the only reason he turned it down is because it would have deligitimized any further claim to any portion of Israel.

NEARLY everything. Its not like deal broke down cause he didnt get grandmas flatwear. What was the sticking point? Jereuselam.??

DO you think it all has to do wh Arafat as if he dropped dead today there would be peace. I doubt it.

[DaChew]

Originally posted by Tmy


What was the sticking point? Jereuselam.??



Part of the sticking point was Jerusalem. Arafat is fond of announcing his intentions that the Palestinians will defend the Muslim and Christian holy places. That not only includes nearly all of Jerusalem but also other places in Israel, like the church of the nativity in Bethlehem (You'll recall that Palestinian gunmen sought to "protect" the church awhile back by shooting at Israeli soldiers from it's windows and trashing and looting the church itself.)
The other major sticking point is that Arafat insists that all Palestinians have the right to return to Israel. He knows all to well that that would mean the end of Israel.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jesse
Mr. Manifesto, maybe this link (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19777) will educate someone.

You could pick an equal number of passages from the Bible and show that Christians are violent.

You should just accept that you are racist and work to change it. Your attitude proves you do not know, nor have you met, any Arabs. The Arab fiction and the Arab reality are two completely different things.

[Mr Manifesto]

Found without even trying:

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women..." (Ezekiel 9:6)

"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:29)

"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)

"And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:16)

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Let us get back to the point, Cleo, which was started by the claim that Palestinians want to destroy Israel. I pointed out that Isreal wants to destroy Palestine.

I can understand you are upset that Israelis are being killed. Palestinians are also being killed. There is a war on, and it has being going on for many years. Fortunately, it is not as bad as some wars, such as WWI.

In time, people will get sick of killing, and give up their claims that are not that important, and choose peace. We have not reached that point yet.

We have been over this before would Israel give up the Occupation territories to the PLO if they wished to destroy them?

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist


LOL. That's funny. The probability of a comparison for anything goes towards one as any discussion grows longer. Godwin's law is a truism that can be said about anything.

LOL, leave it up to someone called DialecticMaterialist to point out the truth :P

basil_magic

I doubt that basil_magic is still here, but if so just let me say that I sympathise. I know that we all want to put in 2 cents on how to fix the problem with Israel, but the truth is that I have a lot of respect for those actually living in the Middle East and dealing with this issue for real, and not like us here in America and elsewhere that can afford the luxury to make jokes about it.

I will be honest, I don't know what to do or how to fix it, and I'm not going to degrade the people of the Middle East with my useless comentary on the matter. I have too much respect for them to presume to tell them what should be done.

All I know is that Israel should never have been created in the first place, but now, there is no good solution.

And, I'll just say that it really irk's me when people post on the internet in English when it is not their foreign language and other's make fun of them for the quality of their writing. I'd like to see anyone here write a reply in Arabic.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


We have been over this before would Israel give up the Occupation territories to the PLO if they wished to destroy them?

You're right, we have been over this before. The PA has renounced the destruction of Israel, and the extremist Zionsists are still undertaking the destruction of Palestine.

[Malachi151]

When they created Israel there should have been a clause that it there was not peace within 50 years then Israel would be disolved.

[Elektrix]

Originally posted by renata


Why start a new thread when you can simply respond to Electrix's post? She has been waiting for a long time. I note your lack of time did not stop you from posting the same exact, disproved assertion in another thread.

Just to clarify, I'm a "he", not a "she".... although this isn't the first time people have been confused about this.... I wonder if it's my username (maybe it's too similar to the female name Elektra).

-Elektrix

[renata]

Originally posted by Elektrix


Just to clarify, I'm a "he", not a "she".... although this isn't the first time people have been confused about this.... I wonder if it's my username (maybe it's too similar to the female name Elektra).

-Elektrix

Oops :o Sorry! I always thought you were a she, indeed because of the user name. In fact I even convinced another poster you were a she- my apologies.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You're right, we have been over this before. The PA has renounced the destruction of Israel, and the extremist Zionsists are still undertaking the destruction of Palestine.

I see Israel is undertaking the destruction of Palestine despite giving them occupied land that they won from Jordan and allowing them to govern their own state.
These facts totally debunk your notion that Israel is undertaking the destruction of Palestine.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


I see Israel is undertaking the destruction of Palestine despite giving them occupied land that they won from Jordan and allowing them to govern their own state.
These facts totally debunk your notion that Israel is undertaking the destruction of Palestine.

You sound like the land was taken in a poker game. It was taken illegally. Even Ben-Gurion believed it should have all been handed back. Most of the world believes that International Law says it was not Israels to take and hand back is it pleased.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You sound like the land was taken in a poker game. It was taken illegally. Even Ben-Gurion believed it should have all been handed back. Most of the world believes that International Law says it was not Israels to take and hand back is it pleased.

No it was taken from a failed invasion to destroy Israel and hand the land back to who? Jordan’s that lost the land in there failed invasion?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


No it was taken from a failed invasion to destroy Israel and hand the land back to who? Jordan’s that lost the land in there failed invasion?

Both sides were spoiling for a fight. Let's get over this 'bad guy vs good guy' over simplification.

Israel struck first. They could have handed it back to Jordan if they wanted. Ben-Gurion thought they should. Greedier minds prevailed.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Both sides were spoiling for a fight. Let's get over this 'bad guy vs good guy' over simplification.

Israel struck first. They could have handed it back to Jordan if they wanted. Ben-Gurion thought they should. Greedier minds prevailed.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com
World Net Daily
Joseph Farah

Revisiting the Six-Day War

Occupation, occupation, occupation.

If you listen to Arabs, that's the cause of the conflict with Israel - occupation.

They blame all their ills - from refugees living in squalor for the last 50 years to Yasser Arafat's bad breath - on the so-called Israeli "occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The Arabs say the Isralis grabbed this real estate in a war of agression in 1967. In fact, Israel did not start that war. Israel did not want that war. Israel merely defended itself - very, very effectively - from coordinated attacks by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Arafat's terrorists.

This is not opinion. This is fact. A friend of mine, Sol Jacobs, did something very simple - something very obvious - to document this fact, which seems to elude so many today. He went back and looked at what newspapers were reporting about the crisis before June 5, 1967 - before there was any alleged "Israeli occupation."

Here's what he found on his month-long timeline leading up to the Six-Day War:

- On May 7, the New York Times reported Syria had shelled the Israeli village of Ein Gev.
- On May 17, the New York Times reported that the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Arafat, pledged to "keep sending commandos" into Israel.
- On May 19, the Los Angeles Times reported Egypt stood accused of using poison gas in Yemen.
- On May 19, the New York Times reported Egypt had deployed its forces along the Israeli border.
- On May 20, the New York Times reported Egypt forced U.N. peacekeeping troops to leave the Sinai Desert in anticipation of its attack on Israel.
- On May 21, the New York Times reported Eqyptian soldiers were massing in the Sinai.
- On May 22, the New York Times reported that the PLO would be stepping up its attacks in Israel, that Cairo was calling up 10,000 reserves and that Iraq would be sending aid to battle Israel.
- On May 23, every newspaper in the world reported that the U.S. declared Egypt's military blockade of the gulf "illegal."
- On May 25, the New York Times reported that Jordan would admit Saudi and Iraqi forces into its country to do battle with Israel.
- On May 27, every newspaper in the world reported Egypt's fiery threats to destroy Israel.
- On May 29, the New York Times reported the Egyptian buildup of military forces in the Sinai was continuing.
- On May 29, the Washington Post reported that despite all of this provocation, Israel was still reluctant to have a showdown with its enemies.
- On May 29, the New York Times reported new Syrian attacks on Israel.
- On June 3, the New York Times reported that Britain declared the Egyptian blockade could lead to war. It also reported that four Syrian commandos were intercepted in Israel.

- On June 5, 1967, the Six-Day War began. Israel rolled up all of its enemies faster than anyone would have believed. It took control of East Jerusalem from Jordan. It took control of Judea and Samaria on the west bank of the Jordan River from Jordan. It took control of the Golan Heights from Syria. And it took control of the Gaza Strip and Sinai Desert from Egypt.

You can read these news reports for yourself thanks to the work of Sol Jacobs

Clearly, the so-called "occupation" of these territories came about as a result of Arab war-making on Israel. Israel merely defended itself well. Israel also proved it was willing to give these territories back to neighbors who would live in peace with the Jewish state, as demonstrated with the return of the Sinai Egypt.

All of this raises a few questions: If Israel is occupying those terrorities today, who was occupying them until 1967? If the West Bank and Gaza belong to "Palestinians" why were they under the control of Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967? If Arab "Palestinian" just want their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967?

And, lastly, why is it, according to many of these articles written in 1967, that when the Arabs talked about "occupied territories" then, they meant all of Israel?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


http://www.worldnetdaily.com
World Net Daily
Joseph Farah

Revisiting the Six-Day War

Occupation, occupation, occupation.

If you listen to Arabs, that's the cause of the conflict with Israel - occupation.

They blame all their ills - from refugees living in squalor for the last 50 years to Yasser Arafat's bad breath - on the so-called Israeli "occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.



ad hominem, straw man, waste of time.



The Arabs say the Isralis grabbed this real estate in a war of agression in 1967. In fact, Israel did not start that war. Israel did not want that war. Israel merely defended itself - very, very effectively - from coordinated attacks by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Arafat's terrorists.



that's his opinion. Sharon was keen as mustard. While some Israelis didn't want the war, others did. He disobeyed orders, going off on his own merry escapade, seizing land he shouldn't have. I have already provided you with a link of an interview with Moshe Dayan, a senior Israeli general, admitting there were many in Israel provoking the Syrians to react.



This is not opinion. This is fact. A friend of mine, Sol Jacobs, did something very simple - something very obvious - to document this fact, which seems to elude so many today. He went back and looked at what newspapers were reporting about the crisis before June 5, 1967 - before there was any alleged "Israeli occupation."

Here's what he found on his month-long timeline leading up to the Six-Day War:

- On May 7, the New York Times reported Syria had shelled the Israeli village of Ein Gev.
- On May 17, the New York Times reported that the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Arafat, pledged to "keep sending commandos" into Israel.
- On May 19, the Los Angeles Times reported Egypt stood accused of using poison gas in Yemen.
- On May 19, the New York Times reported Egypt had deployed its forces along the Israeli border.
- On May 20, the New York Times reported Egypt forced U.N. peacekeeping troops to leave the Sinai Desert in anticipation of its attack on Israel.
- On May 21, the New York Times reported Eqyptian soldiers were massing in the Sinai.
- On May 22, the New York Times reported that the PLO would be stepping up its attacks in Israel, that Cairo was calling up 10,000 reserves and that Iraq would be sending aid to battle Israel.
- On May 23, every newspaper in the world reported that the U.S. declared Egypt's military blockade of the gulf "illegal."
- On May 25, the New York Times reported that Jordan would admit Saudi and Iraqi forces into its country to do battle with Israel.
- On May 27, every newspaper in the world reported Egypt's fiery threats to destroy Israel.
- On May 29, the New York Times reported the Egyptian buildup of military forces in the Sinai was continuing.
- On May 29, the Washington Post reported that despite all of this provocation, Israel was still reluctant to have a showdown with its enemies.
- On May 29, the New York Times reported new Syrian attacks on Israel.
- On June 3, the New York Times reported that Britain declared the Egyptian blockade could lead to war. It also reported that four Syrian commandos were intercepted in Israel.


- On June 5, 1967, the Six-Day War began. Israel rolled up all of its enemies faster than anyone would have believed. It took control of East Jerusalem from Jordan. It took control of Judea and Samaria on the west bank of the Jordan River from Jordan. It took control of the Golan Heights from Syria. And it took control of the Gaza Strip and Sinai Desert from Egypt.

You can read these news reports for yourself thanks to the work of Sol Jacobs

Clearly, the so-called "occupation" of these territories came about as a result of Arab war-making on Israel. Israel merely defended itself well. Israel also proved it was willing to give these territories back to neighbors who would live in peace with the Jewish state, as demonstrated with the return of the Sinai Egypt.

All of this raises a few questions: If Israel is occupying those terrorities today, who was occupying them until 1967? If the West Bank and Gaza belong to "Palestinians" why were they under the control of Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967? If Arab "Palestinian" just want their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967?

And, lastly, why is it, according to many of these articles written in 1967, that when the Arabs talked about "occupied territories" then, they meant all of Israel?

So what does this prove. That Israel was ready for a war? It certainly appears to have been. It was also peforming provocative acts of it's own, only these have not been reported as readily in the Western media due to bias or lack of interest.

Once again, Palestinians had been asking for their own state at various points. Perhaps they were just glad the Ottoman occupation of hundreds of years was over, or perhaps they just thought that Jordan could protect them from Israeli military agression, or perhaps they saw being run by Jordan as better than being run by Israel. Either way, how does that give Israel the right to run them?

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Baker


No it was taken from a failed invasion to destroy Israel and hand the land back to who? Jordan’s that lost the land in there failed invasion?

hehe ahhh.

The Israeli situation would not be a situation if it were simple eh?

What's so sadly funny about it is you can beat facts together all day long and it does not matter, there is no solution based on facts. Our modern humanity is preventing the natural solution to this problem, which is annihilation of one of the sides.

Its like life support, when does it become more humane to just let death occur?

They blame all their ills - from refugees living in squalor for the last 50 years to Yasser Arafat's bad breath

BTW, I have to say I love the word squalor. It's one of those words that just does not get used enough these days :)

Now, at any rate, we all know that the formation of Israel was done because of anti-Semitism right? The Anglos wanted the Jews out of their countries and saw it as a good way to continue Hitler's agenda that they all supported in a more acceptable way. It's why the Bolsheviks and Einstein were against the formaiton of Israel.

Oh, the problems they cause...

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


ad hominem, straw man, waste of time.



that's his opinion. Sharon was keen as mustard. While some Israelis didn't want the war, others did. He disobeyed orders, going off on his own merry escapade, seizing land he shouldn't have. I have already provided you with a link of an interview with Moshe Dayan, a senior Israeli general, admitting there were many in Israel provoking the Syrians to react.



So what does this prove. That Israel was ready for a war? It certainly appears to have been. It was also peforming provocative acts of it's own, only these have not been reported as readily in the Western media due to bias or lack of interest.

Once again, Palestinians had been asking for their own state at various points. Perhaps they were just glad the Ottoman occupation of hundreds of years was over, or perhaps they just thought that Jordan could protect them from Israeli military agression, or perhaps they saw being run by Jordan as better than being run by Israel. Either way, how does that give Israel the right to run them?

It shows that the Arab Nations where clearly preparing for war you have ignored all of the facts given here you and the Arab’s claims of Israel starting the War or false.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Baker


The Arabs say the Isralis grabbed this real estate in a war of agression in 1967. In fact, Israel did not start that war. Israel did not want that war. Israel merely defended itself - very, very effectively - from coordinated attacks by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Arafat's terrorists.



Not exactly. Right or wrong, Israelis took the precise land which had already been granted to them by the U.N. and they had not yet occupied. The U.N. never provided any forces to back the decision up.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


Not exactly. Right or wrong, Israelis took the precise land which had already been granted to them by the U.N. and they had not yet occupied. The U.N. never provided any forces to back the decision up.

So, how did the UN have the right to give away land that was not theirs to give? Israel is quite happy, by the way, to ignore numerous UN requests that it does not agree with, so the UN mandate does not really sit too well. If they want to take the land, according to UN authority, they should also comply with other UN votes on how it should act in the area.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

So, how did the UN have the right to give away land that was not theirs to give? Israel is quite happy, by the way, to ignore numerous UN requests that it does not agree with,

Yes UN requests lobbied by every Islamic country in the world.
And you can't compare UN decisions from over 50 years ago on today's problems.



so the UN mandate does not really sit too well. If they want to take the land, according to UN authority, they should also comply with other UN votes on how it should act in the area.

Has UN mandate done anything to stop the POL from using terrorism or even trying to crack down on terrorist?