Wine clips and audio devices

[NiallM]

I've just realised that the situation with the wine clips is similar to the audio devices, and that anyone who consistently detects a difference after using the devices is entitled to the million. In fully agreed and witnessed test conditions, that is.

In that spirit, I may apply for the Million myself.

But first, I must buy one of the devices and a few bottles of wine. I need to forestall the warnings that all applicants receive about trying out their ability before they go further.

I'm hoying my way to the nearest wine-shop to get me some bottles.

I'll ensure double-blinding and let you know how I've got on after an extended and rigorous test period.

[SezMe]

Great approach to the challenge. I, for one, look forward to your results. Take some pics to share with us.

[NiallM]

Great approach to the challenge. I, for one, look forward to your results. Take some pics to share with us.
You will not want to see pics of me after I have gone through the bottles that I will be buying!

[William Smith]

I've just realised that the situation with the wine clips is similar to the audio devices, and that anyone who consistently detects a difference after using the devices is entitled to the million. In fully agreed and witnessed test conditions, that is.

In that spirit, I may apply for the Million myself.

But first, I must buy one of the devices and a few bottles of wine. I need to forestall the warnings that all applicants receive about trying out their ability before they go further.

I'm hoying my way to the nearest wine-shop to get me some bottles.

I'll ensure double-blinding and let you know how I've got on after an extended and rigorous test period.

NiallM, if you want to speed up the "double-blinding", get several of those 5 l jerrycans labeled "French Table Wine". The added glycol will do just fine.

Good chug.

[SezMe]

You will not want to see pics of me after I have gone through the bottles that I will be buying!
Au contrair (sp?), that is precisely when a video will have its greatest value. :) :)

[NiallM]

Well, i sherioushly doubt thta the fuggin' JREF will be gerrin' an appliaction from me any time shoon.

I tried it. A friend bought one some while ago and kindly dug it out of his deepest drawer and labelled four glasses of a fairly raw Chinon that I brought to his place, adding two glasses of a similar wine he had to hand. He poured two glasses "clipped" and two "unclipped" and two glasses of the second wine before passing them to his wife who hadn't seen the pouring. She noted the labels, repoured into newly labelled glasses and then brought them out to us. We honestly couldn't taste a damn difference (as expected). We spotted the Chinon correctly in each case, but couldn't determine the clipped glasses. The other wine we were able to detect, but I couldn't easily identify it. He knew its origin, of course. We reached 100% agreement on all other issues.

The best bit was working out a very basic way to double blind this test with only three people and a limited quantity of wine. Actually, the best bit was later - getting stuck into a rather nice couple of Riojas which I bought on the way.

I have one final comment. The wine-clip claimed to eliminate hangovers. If its performance as a means of aging a wine is anything to go by, I'd better have some water and some Solpadeine to hand first thing tomorrow.

[opqdan]

It's really cool to see people doing the kind of tests that reaally show whether this kind of stuff is woo or not (all signs point to woo).

I wonder though, whether you went into the test expecting the device to work or not. A taste test is so highly subjective that the "skeptic factor", often called upon by woos to take the blame for their failures, may have an effect. If you went in expecting all the wines to taste the same, regardless of whether they were clipped, they may (unconciously, or conciously) actually taste the same. The effect does not work the other way around though, a woo expecting them to taste different would still have to choose the right ones.

A truly double blind test would be to give the wines to people who did not know a test was going on. As far as they would know, you were giving them a lot of wine for a regular taste test. Start with a bunch of types of wines and give them to the people, both clipped and unclipped. Then ask them to rank the wines in order. Over a large enough sample, if a correlation of clipped wines beating unclipped wines shows up, then they can be said to improve the taste. The major point is that the people should not be expecting the wines to taste the same because that can have such a huge impact on the results, the same goes for audio, which is why the person who believes it works, must subject themselves to the test, rather than a third party. I suppose you could also force the people into believing that one is better, thus making them think one must taste different. You could, for example tell them that one was aged fro 5 years, while the other is still under one year, when in fact, both are young and one is poured through the clip. They would then be expecting a difference, but choosing the right one would only have a probability equal to chance.

Of course, one could eliminate the taste "judging" completely by simply analyzing the clipped wine compared to the same wine unclipped. If I recall correctly, these devices claim to do something with the tannins (one claims that it forces them to form longer chains, something normally done through aging). If we can show longer chains, then it must work (I wouldn't hold my breath for that outcome though).

Great job though, if only everybody took the time to examine these types of things before imediatly buying into them. Unfortunatly, one must buy the item to test it.

[NiallM]

I agree. It was very much a bodge job as far as tests go and wouldn't pass muster in most situations. Particularly wehn we knew 4 glasses were from the same bottle.

We should have expanded on the second wine idea by preapring perhaps 12 glasses and randomly drawing a sample from that. But then we'd have drunk the lot.

The point about partly expecting the Chinon to be unchanged is absolutely true, though. It may well have coloured our test.

Now we'll have to do it tomorrow with an improved test design involving greater quantities. And hangovers.

[LostAngeles]

I have grave concerns about your sample size here. What you need is a truly large group of people to properly test these devices. Why don't you bring these wine clips and plenty of quality wine to TAM 5 where it can be properly tested and supervised by a JREF staff member or three.

[rjh01]

Please also read this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1698911#post1698911

[SezMe]

I have grave concerns about your sample size here. What you need is a truly large group of people to properly test these devices. Why don't you bring these wine clips and plenty of quality wine to TAM 5 where it can be properly tested and supervised by a JREF staff member or three.
Theoretically, you're right, but remember your one-off test of that damn chip was not statistically significant but served as a useful preliminary test.

That said, doing large scale testing at TAM with some good quality wine has no small merit on its own. :D