Loose Change - Part III

[Pardalis]

Hey Gravy, how come the absence from the Mineta thread? Can't handle sticking to real debating points?

Is there a debate going on there?

All I see is someone talking to himself.

[Gravy]

Hey Gravy, how come the absence from the Mineta thread? Can't handle sticking to real debating points?

You mean your debating points (quoted just as they appear on the page)?
False, and wrong, and illogical, and idiotic reply.

You guys are so stuck with this one. Go back to the Loose Change thread.

Amateurs

You got nothing.

Mineta shows that Cheney was involved, and it's just sticking in your throats.

Sorry, M-H, blazing ignorance and childish abusiveness aren't complementary qualities. I'll be giving your posts a pass.

[WildCat]

The most likely explanation I've heard was it was a beautiful clear day; no clouds at all over the eastern part of the States. Just what you need if you want to visually acquire targets on the ground.
That was an absolutely clear day, pure blue sky. yet so sad... :(

[R.Mackey]

I'm not accusing, I'm asking. Working for an intelligence agency is not illegal, or wrong. I'm curious about the tenacity for defending the official 911 report. That's not illegal or conspiricy.
I started conversing with you back when you first arrived, because you had the grace to ask a perfectly sensible question regarding Sept. 11th. Seemed like you were an honest person who'd been fed the CT line, but had some reasonable doubts about their stories.

At this point, though, you're starting to look like a lost cause. Perhaps I should have given up some time ago, but I've always been an optimist.

[MarkyX]

Idiot alert

http://www.colbertnation.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=2388

The Colbert Nation message board :P

EDIT: Got a CTer claiming to be an engineer. I need to bail soon, so can someone rip him a new one?

[Stellafane]

Hey Gravy, how come the absence from the Mineta thread? Can't handle sticking to real debating points?

Oh, and I'm not wearing any buckles

Ha!

Is it just me, or have CT'ers lately started to resemble John Nash in A Beautiful Mind? Recall that Nash became obsessed with finding meaning in random words printed in magazine articles. There were no real connections between the words, but Nash's unhealthy mind kept spawning them, insisting they had some overarching meaning and formed some huge hidden puzzle that only he could decipher.

Now look at some of the CT-related threads in this forum. Prescott Bush may or may not have consorted with Nazis...Bush Sr. may or may not have misrepresented the dates he was in the CIA...George W waited a few minutes before leaping into action when informed a plane hit the WTC...something about Mineta's testimony being off by a few minutes. Most people would look at these and consider them (even if true) unrelated bits of trivia, meaningless in the great scheme of things. CT'ers look at them as strong evidence for the greatest conspiracy of all time.

So I seriously wonder if that's what we're dealing with here: John Nash, minus the intelligence and creativity, and with a very large dose of immaturity added.

[CptColumbo]

So I seriously wonder if that's what we're dealing with here: John Nash, minus the intelligence and creativity, and with a very large dose of immaturity added.
You forgot about the inflated sense of self-worth.

[Brainster]

I didn't sleep last night... for some reason I kept playing 9/11 stuff over in my head again and again...

I'm taking this way too seriously... :p

I have a question...

Has anyone ever considered making our own video?

I don't mean a direct rebuttal to LC, I mean our own unique video documentary, in the same style as LC, In Plane Site, et al, but tracking actual events.

There are several reasons for this:

1) Visuals work better than text
2) We can get people to watch it and avoid pointless dialogue

and most important

3) Seems a lot of people don't accept the "official story" because it involves a lot of stuff they don't understand. They lack the skills to understand the specialist reports, and lack the time/patience/commitment to learn to understand them. As such they see much of the official story as "unexplained". Their own "common sense" fills in these blanks - this is the exact behaviour LC is taking advantage of.

I'm talking about a documentary that goes through step by step explaining what is happening, how, etc.

This has some interest to me, but perhaps the way to approach it is to break the movie down into component parts and have different people responsible for the individual segments. IOW, have one person (or group) responsible for the Pentagon, another for the WTC, and a third for Flight 93, and maybe yet another handling things like NORAD, etc.

[Brainster]

Is it just me, or have CT'ers lately started to resemble John Nash in A Beautiful Mind? Recall that Nash became obsessed with finding meaning in random words printed in magazine articles. There were no real connections between the words, but Nash's unhealthy mind kept spawning them, insisting they had some overarching meaning and formed some huge hidden puzzle that only he could decipher.

Now look at some of the CT-related threads in this forum. Prescott Bush may or may not have consorted with Nazis...Bush Sr. may or may not have misrepresented the dates he was in the CIA...George W waited a few minutes before leaping into action when informed a plane hit the WTC...something about Mineta's testimony being off by a few minutes. Most people would look at these and consider them (even if true) unrelated bits of trivia, meaningless in the great scheme of things. CT'ers look at them as strong evidence for the greatest conspiracy of all time.

So I seriously wonder if that's what we're dealing with here: John Nash, minus the intelligence and creativity, and with a very large dose of immaturity added.

Watch Who Killed John O'Neill when you get a chance--that guy's got the Nash routine down, complete with the wall diagram.

[tacodaemon]

Yeah, the CIA is very big here in Québec. :cool:
I enjoy believing that Pardalis actually is an adorable kitten in a black ninja hood. I knew the CIA loved recruiting Canadians, but I didn't know they'd gotten to the kittens as well! :boxedin:

[gumboot]

I enjoy believing that Pardalis actually is an adorable kitten in a black ninja hood. I knew the CIA loved recruiting Canadians, but I didn't know they'd gotten to the kittens as well! :boxedin:


Haven't you seen "Cats & Dogs"? The kittens were in on it from the beginning...

-Andrew

[JamesB]

OK, does anybody else work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

You can work for an intelligence agency part-time? Is this something I can do evening and weekends for college money? Do they have a health plan?

[DavidJames]

OK, does anybody else work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time? I do freelance work for the CIA, not unlike freelance reporters. If they got a job for me, they'll put a chalk slash on a mail-box and I'll pick up my orders on the ferry*. A bit inconvenient as I live in Colorado and the closest one is in Seattle, but a job's a job. Lately, most of my assignments have been to infiltrate the "truth" movement and plant whacky stories, or DISINFO, (note all caps, that's important). I was assigned to the Loose Change forum but clearly there was a snafu (note lowercase, that's a mistake) as it appears that forum is overflowing with CIA free lancers. To be honest, I'm not sure there are any "truthers" left.

Mutton-Head - I once did a PsyOps (note mixed case, unclear why) with a Mutton-Head, that wasn't his name, he just had the brains of a dead lamb, perhaps you trained under him?





*amazingly enough, even though that technique was "outted" in the movie "Enemy of the State", we still use it.

[Regnad Kcin]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?Damn! How did you know? (http://www.perfectduluthday.com/10103798.jpg)

[SRW]

Idiot alert

http://www.colbertnation.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=2388

The Colbert Nation message board :P

EDIT: Got a CTer claiming to be an engineer. I need to bail soon, so can someone rip him a new one?

I don't have an account over there but what a piece of work that guy is:

--------------------------------------------------------
wellhahahahI rather hate to bring up my credentials, but you are rather forcing me to do this. wellhahahah


Naw I bet you lie about yourself all the time, and glad to do it.

wellhahahah
I went to the number 1 physics university in the United States.
wellhahahah

And did they give you the directions to the Mental hospital? apparently not.


/wellhahahah
My physics professors told me that 9/11 was an inside job. Basically, it is an open secret among anyone who knows anything about physics or engineering.
wellhahahah/

And if you get your secret decoder ring we will let you know about it also.

/wellhahahah
There is a basic tenent of psychology called the prisoner's dilemma that states people will not act for the greater good if it involves personal sacrifice.
wellhahahah/

Someone should have clued in the police and firefighters

/wellhahahah
You can read more about the prisoner's dilemma here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner)'s_dilemma
wellhahahah/

Oh I get it now, I thought you were talking about "real life." Silly me.
and while your there (if you can figure out how to make a link ) you may want to find out what tenent means.

/wellhahahah
Unfortunately, 9/11 truth is still a taboo subject among the ignorant and uneducated.
wellhahahah/

And yet, you continue to talk about it.

/wellhahahah
Please note, I'm not looking down on people who don't know 9/11 truth, I'm just stating that they are uneducated on the subject.
wellhahahah/

Speaking of uneducated were you cleaning toilets at MIT or Stanford?

[karim]

I have a question...

Has anyone ever considered making our own video?

I don't mean a direct rebuttal to LC, I mean our own unique video documentary, in the same style as LC, In Plane Site, et al, but tracking actual events.

There are several reasons for this:

1) Visuals work better than text
2) We can get people to watch it and avoid pointless dialogue

and most important

3) Seems a lot of people don't accept the "official story" because it involves a lot of stuff they don't understand. They lack the skills to understand the specialist reports, and lack the time/patience/commitment to learn to understand them. As such they see much of the official story as "unexplained". Their own "common sense" fills in these blanks - this is the exact behaviour LC is taking advantage of.

I'm talking about a documentary that goes through step by step explaining what is happening, how, etc.

For example, if we take the WTC collapses...

We document at each step, using the same techniques as LC (video footage, websites, news articles, simple 2D/3D animations, Voice-Over) what happened. Example:

1) Plane crashes and related immediate events (severed supports, spread of fire, removal of fire-proofing...)
2) Various evidences of gradual failure and simple explanations/animations of what was causes them - floor trusses sagging, pulling in the building, etc
3) More imminent collapse info (such as report of floor collapses in South Tower via 911 calls)
4) Step-by-step progression of what a pancake collapse involves (explaining "squibs", the dust cloud, simple and effective comparisons "the collapse released as much energy as 10,000 bunker buster bombs" (or whatever...)
5) Demonstration of variations in estimated time of collapse
6) Demonstration of broad field of collapse damage on surrounding buildings

And so forth.




Films about the collapses already exists by "the mainstream media" like for example:

The History Channel – Engineering Disasters: World Trade Center Building 7

BBC Horizon – The Fall of the World Trade Center

Discovery Channel – How the Twin Towers Collapsed

watch these here:
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_september11.htm


Ofcourse films like these are excluded by default by the CTs.

But if you want an Osama section or something, I'm in :)


If someone has a good idea of a short, fast and entertaining way to bash the misinformationist please let me know.

Would it make sence to combine the silliest claims from the key figures in CT scene and make them contradict each other and otherwise look stupid. Although they do it by them selves just fine. It could be a funny film.

[Belz...]

Idiot alert

http://www.colbertnation.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=2388

The Colbert Nation message board :P

EDIT: Got a CTer claiming to be an engineer. I need to bail soon, so can someone rip him a new one?

Love this one:

Not only is your CD claim not "obvious," it's completely ludicrous and not substantiated by a shred of evidence.

The video showing the center falling first and then all 4 corners (and the walls between them) falling straight down at the same time IS THE EVADENCE!

That damn EVADANCE! Yep. They're evading allright.

[Stellafane]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

I used to, but I haven't had an assignment since I blew up the WTC with thermite. Since then I've been lying low, waiting for my next gig.

Don't tell anyone though.

[aggle-rithm]

I'm not accusing, I'm asking. Working for an intelligence agency is not illegal, or wrong. I'm curious about the tenacity for defending the official 911 report. That's not illegal or conspiricy.

No one is defending the official 911 report. They are defending REALITY, which happens to parallel that report very closely.

[PopeTom]

Has anyone ever considered making our own video?

I don't mean a direct rebuttal to LC, I mean our own unique video documentary, in the same style as LC, In Plane Site, et al, but tracking actual events.



I think NOVA (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/) beat you too it.

Or do you suppose it'd go over most peoples heads.

Or possibly NOVA are clearly governmet puppets because if they don't tow the officlial line their government funding will get cut even further!!! :)

[kookbreaker]

OK, does anybody else work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

I hunt renegade Panda Bears for the CIA. I joined for the free hat.

Due to local and state jurisdiction, I am only able to hunt renegade Pandas in the United States protectorates and on Indian Reservations.

[MarkyX]

http://paltalk.com/

There is a 9/11 conspriacy theory discussion. Hope you guys have a mic or good typists.

[60hzxtl]

I hunt renegade Panda Bears for the CIA. I joined for the free hat.

Due to local and state jurisdiction, I am only able to hunt renegade Pandas in the United States protectorates and on Indian Reservations.


Pandas! Now there's some good eatin'

I hope you take them to CIA headquarters:

http://www.cia-culinary.com/

[Mutton-Head]

I hunt renegade Panda Bears for the CIA. I joined for the free hat.



So you admit, the only reason you joined, was to free Hat McCullough,
a convicted serial killer of twenty-three babies & toddlers.

[CurtC]

Free Hat! Count me in!

[Mutton-Head]

Sorry, M-H, blazing ignorance and childish abusiveness aren't complementary qualities. I'll be giving your posts a pass.

Well, sorry if I get hot under the collar sometimes.
I'll try to tone it down.

But really, You're one of the few posters who I find to be helpful during debates.
You help me to see details that I missed before.

Thanks again,

[chipmunk stew]

I joined to sleep with the evil chick-bots.

[NDBoston]

http://paltalk.com/

There is a 9/11 conspriacy theory discussion. Hope you guys have a mic or good typists.

Good luck there.I've already been banned from that room.

It's all about the New World Order and the room moderator is convinced that he is getting his computer hacked by governemt operatives.

Basically, it's filled with mentally ill people.

[SRW]

Good luck there.I've already been banned from that room.

It's all about the New World Order and the room moderator is convinced that he is getting his computer hacked by governemt operatives.

Basically, it's filled with mentally ill people.

I have also been banned it is really hard to listen to them. very very sad people.

[MarkyX]

Gravy, I know this probably sounds impossible but I was thinking of making another video based on the Loose Change creators talk transcript. Problem is, your document doesn't specify at what time frame or the source.

[Belz...]

I hunt renegade Panda Bears for the CIA. I joined for the free hat.

Due to local and state jurisdiction, I am only able to hunt renegade Pandas in the United States protectorates and on Indian Reservations.

I joined because I have a binding contract with the CIA granting me ALL of their souls upon demise.

So far so good.

[Johnny Pixels]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

I'm a double-agent (entendre class) for MI6 and the CIA, I've been camped outside Dylan Avery's house for the past two weeks, but I found his bush to be too uncomfortable to sleep in.

[kookbreaker]

I joined because I have a binding contract with the CIA granting me ALL of their souls upon demise.

So far so good.

Pandas don't have souls!

[sophia8]

Heh... that would be funny...

Incidentally... much has been made of the date...

I understand it was the UN International Peace Day

Any explanations put forward as to why the terrorists chose 9/11? Was it just a random day? (Attacks had to happen on "a" day...)

-Andrew
It was:
Ethiopia's New Year;
the feast day of St. Hyacinth;
the birth anniversaries of DH Lawrence, Herbert Lom Brian de Palma and Franz Beckenbauer;
the 30th anniversary of the death of Nikita Khrushchev;
4 years after the Scots voted for independence;
28 years after a US-supported junta overthrew the democratically-elected govenment of Chile;
79 years after a British mandate was declared in Palestine;
160 years after a regular commuter train started service between London & Brighton;
224 years after American troops led by George Washington were defeated by the British at the Battle of Brandywine Creek, in the American War of Independence;
292 years after the English defeated the French at the battle of Malplaquet.

Take your pick.

[MarkyX]

From the history channel document "The Hamburg Cell", it was a riddle involving a lollipop, a slash, and two sticks.

[realitybites]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?
You just had to keep asking questions, didn't you Mutt?

::Screws on silencer::

Was seriously hoping it wouldn't come to this....

[Mutton-Head]

...... but I found his bush to be too uncomfortable to sleep in.


Pixel, that's like... a... a triple entendre!

Ouch!

[Belz...]

Pandas don't have souls!

Not the pandas, Kook. The CIA employees.

Sheesh. I must already have yours. ;)

[kookbreaker]

Not the pandas, Kook. The CIA employees.

Sheesh. I must already have yours. ;)

I threw mine in the river on a dare when I was 11.

[Mutton-Head]

You just had to keep asking questions, didn't you Mutt?

::Screws on silencer::

Was seriously hoping it wouldn't come to this....

Hey, you have a silencer..

Because I can't buy those here.

[realitybites]

New thread over at LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8710). Think it's rather indicative of their preconceived mindset and how they simply refuse to believe the government wasn't behind 9/11.

Nothing to do with facts/science/etc....

They just don't wanna...

Edit: ... forgot the darn link.

[MarkyX]

A little bird told me this.

Someone is going to make a video debunking my subtitles...

http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14655

Should I laugh or laugh harder? They claim I cite no sources, yet I said exactly in the beginning of the video to go to www.lolloosechange.co.nr

[Brainster]

A little bird told me this.

Someone is going to make a video debunking my subtitles...

http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14655

Should I laugh or laugh harder? They claim I cite no sources, yet I said exactly in the beginning of the video to go to www.lolloosechange.co.nr

What's next, Screw the Screw the Screw Loose Change Video?

I have a strong suspicion this is going to turn out like that much-hyped debunking of Gravy's Guide to Loose Change.

[Gravy]

Gravy, I know this probably sounds impossible but I was thinking of making another video based on the Loose Change creators talk transcript. Problem is, your document doesn't specify at what time frame or the source.
I would have been more thorough if I thought someone might make a video of those quotes from the radio! :D

[MarkyX]

I would have been more thorough if I thought someone might make a video of those quotes from the radio! :D

ARRRRRRGG

You could've asked :)

[Belz...]

I threw mine in the river on a dare when I was 11.

So THAT's what it was.

[XXX]

You guys catch this yet?

http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/sibel-edmonds-911-may-have-been-inside.html

Sibel Edmonds: 9/11 May Have Been Inside Job

In an interview with Alex Jones, Sibel Edmonds went further than she ever has before:

Alex Jones: I'm asking you-- I mean, clearly, where does the evidence point on 9/11?

Sibel Edmonds: Well, that is the whole point, Alex. They are not letting out all the evidence. And since we don't have it to this date. It is as I was telling you, the [unintelligible] Force has been all classified. They also had 35 pages-- and this is according to Senator Graham-- the most important evidence and information on 9/11 by the Senate and House Joint Inquiry that happened in 2002 classified and 5 years later everything about it is classified. And again, you are still having people who are gagged. So this already points out that they don't want the evidence out. And they are keeping the evidence out of the public--

Alex Jones: But even if they cut evidence out of reports, we have the clear evidence of Thermite in the buildings, we have clear evidence of C.I.A. insider trading, N.O.R.A.D. standing down, U.S. troops already massed in central Asia, Bush having the launch order two days before to attack Afghanistan. I mean, Sibel, when you put all that together-- I'm asking you personally-- where does all the evidence point?

Sibel Edmonds: The evidence points to a massive government cover-up.

And that raises the question of why. Now we can answer that in so many different ways and we can speculate, but as I said, the most important thing is to stay with the facts. Not the facts that the government claims to be the facts, but the facts that are absolutely undisputed.

Alex Jones: Sibel, what I'm asking you is, in your gut, do you think 9/11 to some extent is an inside job?

Sibel Edmonds: Well, again, as I am telling you, I'm trying to tell you is, I have all the evidence of cover-up. Now, who were the people behind this? And why? And how? We don't have a definite answer. As I said, we can come up with theories, we can come up with speculation, but they do not--I mean, in my opinion, they are not facts. But also what government has been giving us, again, I don't consider those a total--you know-- total truth or fact either.

Alex Jones: Would you be surprised?

Sibel Edmonds: No. I wouldn't.

Alex Jones: You wouldn't be surprised if elements or criminal elements or private contractors were involved in 9/11?

Sibel Edmonds: No, I wouldn't be surprised.

Alex Jones: So you wouldn't be surprised like many others, because of the evidence and the cover-up you've seen, if 9/11 was an inside job?

Sibel Edmonds: At this point, I'd have to say no, I wouldn't be surprised.

Alex Jones: Do you think the evidence is leaning towards that?

Sibel Edmonds: Well, again, considering the level of cover-up and the length at which they have gone to gag people and prevent information-- this information from coming out, I would say yes."

nice leading questions there, as you usually see on Alex Jones shows. Everyone has to buy into exactly what he does, and if they don;t he just keeps rephrasing the question until he gets some kind of an agreement.

So now every time you say that the 9/11 investigation should look more at what Sibel Edmonds has to say, it can be turned around into your support that 9/11 was an "inside job".

[realitybites]

You guys catch this yet?

http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/sibel-edmonds-911-may-have-been-inside.html
Why do I picture Jones on his knees with his hands clasped, asking those questions? He's all but begging for her to even remotely agree with the phrase "inside job".

Now, I don't know much about Sibel, but from what I've heard she's kinda like the pawn both sides would like to have on their side.

What's telling is that Jones, through is unabashedly leading questions, seems to know that their side needs her much, much more.

[dubfan]

Now, I don't know much about Sibel, but from what I've heard she's kinda like the pawn both sides would like to have on their side.

She's worth knowing about on her own merits. Great article on her in Wikipedia. Hers is a very important story, but not (IMO) for the reasons Alex Jones thinks. She basically blew the whistle on an incredible amount of FBI mismanagement and incompetence, and it sure looks like she also got tangled up in some type of foreign espionage or double-agent situation as well.

[Gravy]

You guys catch this yet?

http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/sibel-edmonds-911-may-have-been-inside.html
The fact that she did an interview with crackpot Alex Jones makes me wonder just how convincing her evidence of a coverup is.

I love this exchange (bolding mine):
Sibel Edmonds: And that raises the question of why. Now we can answer that in so many different ways and we can speculate, but as I said, the most important thing is to stay with the facts. Not the facts that the government claims to be the facts, but the facts that are absolutely undisputed.

Alex Jones: Sibel, what I'm asking you is, in your gut, do you think 9/11 to some extent is an inside job?

[kevin]

OK, does anybody else work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

Does bein a secret agent for International Rescue count?

[JamesB]

You guys catch this yet?

http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/sibel-edmonds-911-may-have-been-inside.html


Alex Jones: But even if they cut evidence out of reports, we have the clear evidence of Thermite in the buildings, we have clear evidence of C.I.A. insider trading, N.O.R.A.D. standing down, U.S. troops already massed in central Asia, Bush having the launch order two days before to attack Afghanistan. I mean, Sibel, when you put all that together-- I'm asking you personally-- where does all the evidence point?



Where the hell does he come up with this crap? We didn't have US troops massed in Central Asia even after 9/11.

[Childlike Empress]

The fact that she did an interview with crackpot Alex Jones makes me wonder just how convincing her evidence of a coverup is.

Oh oh, Mrs. Edmonds spoke with EEEEVIL Alex Jones.

@XXX: Peer pressure is for kitten.

[Regnad Kcin]

Oh oh, Mrs. Edmonds spoke with EEEEVIL Alex Jones.No, "crackpot Alex Jones."

You're not defending the man in any way, are you?

[Childlike Empress]

No, "crackpot Alex Jones."

You're not defending the man in any way, are you?
Look at the little green boat between your feet. It is impossible that it supports your weight. You will sink!

[chipmunk stew]

You guys catch this yet?

http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/sibel-edmonds-911-may-have-been-inside.html

Sibel Edmonds: 9/11 May Have Been Inside JobHow soon before this gets represented as "Sibel Edmonds: 9/11 Was Definitely an Inside Job, and I Have Proof (but I Have a Gag Order so I Can't Talk About It Any Further)"?

Anyone want to lay odds?

[aggle-rithm]

How soon before this gets represented as "Sibel Edmonds: 9/11 Was Definitely an Inside Job, and I Have Proof (but I Have a Gag Order so I Can't Talk About It Any Further)"?

Anyone want to lay odds?

Or, "I have an astonishing proof, but unfortunately there is not enough room to include it here."

[WildCat]

New thread over at LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8710). Think it's rather indicative of their preconceived mindset and how they simply refuse to believe the government wasn't behind 9/11.

Nothing to do with facts/science/etc....

They just don't wanna...

Edit: ... forgot the darn link.
Look at comment #12 in the article they link to, it's our buddy Chuck Sheen w/ his standard canned "check out the vids at universalseed" response.

The article doesn't mention at all whether or not the construction is all steel as opposed to steel and concrete. It doesn't look like he will simulate the structural damage also, nor if he will fill it w/ typical office equipment either. I don't know what he expects to prove like this.

[60hzxtl]

But if you read the article, ( and I'll cut some slack to the prof. - it may well have been the idiot writer, or his equally idiot editor.)

" The Peruvian-born academic is one of a number of experts across the world who believes that the Twin Towers should have stayed up after they were hit by hijacked airliners on September 11 2001."

Somebody mention that the towers DID stay up after they were hit by airliners.

Context is everything - just like the Loosers who have no idea of the scale of the WTC.

[Belz...]

Oh oh, Mrs. Edmonds spoke with EEEEVIL Alex Jones.

@XXX: Peer pressure is for kitten.

I really like you, Childlike. Kinda like whack-a-mole. You show up every now and then, get the crap beat out of you, and then dissapear for an indeterminate amount of time.

Well, at least you've got a cool name, a cute avatar and a nice, and accurate, description of your location. Now if only your posts had content.

[Regnad Kcin]

Look at the little green boat between your feet. It is impossible that it supports your weight. You will sink!Yes, yes, it all makes sense to me now. Thanks!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Stumbled across an ASCE paper of interest whilst digging up squib debunkings.
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/paper.htm
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf

[T.A.M.]

Just went to the LC link posted above (sorry, too new to re-link it here yet). It says alot, when one of the responders says "Lets hope he proves the physics don't work."

If they were really seeking the "truth" which we know they really aren't, then the results are all that matters, regardless of what they prove or disprove.

[Grundar]

I just happened to spot this name on a partial list Jenabell posted of the Scholars backing the "inside job" theory.

Jage Knepp (SM) Chemistry, Sociology, Stockholm University

Looks like someone gave them a joke name. It translates to Iam Nuts. :) Makes me wonder how authentic the rest of the list is.

/Hans

[kookbreaker]

I just happened to spot this name on a partial list Jenabell posted of the Scholars backing the "inside job" theory.

Jage Knepp (SM) Chemistry, Sociology, Stockholm University

Looks like someone gave them a joke name. It translates to Iam Nuts. :) Makes me wonder how authentic the rest of the list is.

/Hans

Pwah!

:roll:

That's just rich.

[Hutch]

Grundar, hope you don't mind but I quoted your post over there, gave you the credit for the find.

Thanks for the help.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

We're approaching Icke terrority over on nineeleven.co.uk


Let me see if I understand where you are coming from, and please, correct me if I am mistaken; I don't want to inadvertantly start setting up a strawman argument.

You are grounding your arguments/claims on the base idea that Islamic/Muslim militants are an outgrowth, or at least backed by, US intelligence services. Therefore, any actions taken by said militants is at least condoned by, and at most orchastrated by, the US intelligence services. Is this an accurate summation?

Western intelligence. And Israeli. Either they are backing said terrorists or they carry out attacks themselves that are then blamed on said terrorists.
Take for example the two British SAS * who were caught in Basra dressed up as arabs with a car bomb waiting to go off.

There have also been numerous reports of US soldiers setting up false flag attacks across Iraq.

Thank you for the clarification.

[chipmunk stew]

Grundar, hope you don't mind but I quoted your post over there, gave you the credit for the find.

Thanks for the help.linky?

[60hzxtl]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7186061015080818639




Can these guys be taken seriously or better phrased, can these guys be that stooopid?
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/
They saw the limb they've been out on about FDNY and the "gag order", when a member of the FDNY explains to them that it is standard procedure to not talk to the press while in uniform.

Then, their Fireman does not exactly give them a ringing endorsment, yet that's what they hear.
Further evidence that the Loosers are drunk on their own myth.

Next entry Ol' Dylan is giving a movie plug "One of the best films and sequels I've seen in a very long time." This from a 22- 23 year old. Ahhh Dylan the old sage.

He still clings to the gold in the basement business by quoting a letter from "A. K" followed by:

"There were a few of my co-workers who died from lung disease from the poor air qualiity since 9-11.

What is the 1st edition?" (sic)

Again, hardly a ringing endorsement, and while the odds are that in the 5 years since, any number of construction workers have "died from lung disease" even the ones who never worked at ground zero.

[Hutch]

linky?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8746&st=30


...But it apparently went right over their heads...

[Grundar]

Grundar, hope you don't mind but I quoted your post over there, gave you the credit for the find.

Thanks for the help.
You're welcome i only lurk over there anyway.

/Hans

[Brainster]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7186061015080818639

Again, hardly a ringing endorsement, and while the odds are that in the 5 years since, any number of construction workers have "died from lung disease" even the ones who never worked at ground zero.

Here's an article which indicates (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/437742p-368865c.html) that there may be something to the "lung disease" issue.

History tells us to be cautious on these things; I don't believe in Gulf War Syndrome, for example. But there are lots of reasons to believe that the air quality was very unhealthy in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the towers, not the least of which is all the asbestos.

[Mancman]

New thread over at LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8710). Think it's rather indicative of their preconceived mindset and how they simply refuse to believe the government wasn't behind 9/11.

Nothing to do with facts/science/etc....

They just don't wanna...

Edit: ... forgot the darn link.

Sounds like an interesting study, and unfortunately more material for the CTers to twist into support for their theory. It seems to be a study of purely how fires spread and not a study of how long it will take the building to collapse. For a start, as a piece of 1960s British social housing, the tower will almost certainly (99.9%) be a reinforced concrete structure and contain no steel whatsoever.

I highly doubt the researchers want the building to fall down considering they'd lose 'hundreds of pounds of sophisticated equipment'. And when it doesn't fall, the CTers will go ga-ga.

[Gravy]

At the nineelevenUK forum they relegated me to a new "critics corner," so I bid them adieu. Guess their mods weren't so open-minded after all.

[Regnad Kcin]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8746&st=30

...But it apparently went right over their heads...The devil works for God so i dont know why people think hes so great.If im not mistaken devil worshiping loser cultists do alot of gay activity am i wrong loonybin?Not that theres anything wrong with being gay like loony and his boyfriend corbin from JREF loser cult website.
Im still waiting for you to post one time you ever agreed with anyone.I hope they ban you and corbin.
I went to that website before it sucked.No evidence to back up anything all just alot of bla bla bla im smarter than everyone bla bla.
Even if we listed 650 names you wouldnt agree that any of them were credible in your infinite wisdom.What is it you do for a living again to make you so insanly smart?Oh thats right you worship satan my bad.Satan is a little biatch.Anyone who follows him is exactly the same.Well, now who could argue with that?

[kookbreaker]

Well, now who could argue with that?

Who could even read that?

[T.A.M.]

I don't even bother to try to sign up at those places, knowing they will block me or turf me the minute i bang out a comment that isn't metaphorically performing oral on good old D.A. over there.

As for the lung disease issue, I agree that there may be some credibility to workers on the 9/11 site contracting "lung disease". "Lung Disease" can encompass so many things, but they are likely referring to interstitial lung diseases similiar to asbestosis, or acute alveolitis/pneumonitis similar to farmers lung, etc... which can lead to ILD. These diseases do tend to come from chronic exposure to toxins in the air, but some studies have show than in some cases of extreme exposure (super high levels) that the time of exposure required does not have to be that long. This is especially true of Farmer's Lung and Pigeon Fancier's Lung, which are acute, often allergic type reactions to said chemicals in the small elements of the lung tissue.

[60hzxtl]

Here's an article which indicates (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/437742p-368865c.html) that there may be something to the "lung disease" issue.

History tells us to be cautious on these things; I don't believe in Gulf War Syndrome, for example. But there are lots of reasons to believe that the air quality was very unhealthy in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the towers, not the least of which is all the asbestos.

No argument that there was a lot of bad stuff in the air, and there ARE people who have health problems, and a FEW have died. But it has become o political football - studies, funds, surveys, etc. I worked down there from day 5 (and on day 7 or 8 started to hear kook stuff.) The people who got the worst inhalants ran in early, and didn't wring their hands and worry, they rolled up their sleeves and dug in. People in the pile were given respirators, and some even wore them. Offices still have huge hepa filters, and the post office across the street was kept closed until recently.

What I questioned was the implication that there was a plague of people keeling over; compare construction workers - demo people from anywhere with the ground zero people. How do they compare health wise?

Or the next conspiracy is the ignoring of the workers because of the secret stuff that was at ground zero.

First hand knowledge here: And as far as that safe with the "gold"? Opening it was a low priority, and it was mostly inaccessible for a long time. So the NYPD put a video camera on it. There were tool marks on the door when owners did get to it. Lots of tools available at a demo site. Lots of people know how to use them.

[T.A.M.]

Ok, I've figured it out. This is why D.A. and the crowd are so convinced on the gold issue.

I think they have a theory that the same little green men who planted the explosives in the wtc over 2-3 months, are also the ones who took all the gold (40 Million pounds according to the monetary value LC tells us) out.

Just like it took months for the leprechans to plant the bombs, so it took them that same amount of time to remove the gold...go in with explosives in your little sack, come out with a sack of gold...

[Brainster]

At the nineelevenUK forum they relegated me to a new "critics corner," so I bid them adieu. Guess their mods weren't so open-minded after all.

I have come to the conclusion that the only point of arguing with the conspiracy theorists is for the benefit of onlookers. There is no real chance of changing minds that have been made up on the 9-11 issue; the only hope is to persuade those still on the fence.

One would think that somebody really interested in the "Truth" would be happy to have mistakes pointed out to them, but they're not. They are simply partisans for their side. In a lot of ways it's like trying to convince, say, a Boston Red Sox fan that he should root for the Yankees.

[T.A.M.]

I seem to have come to that conclusion much sooner than you my friend. I spent about three days, about 2 months ago, trying to convince a friend that the path he was going down, the things he was taking at face value were wrong, and without any evidence. I showed him a plethora of real proof to the contrary of all he held as true, yet I did not change him one bit. He merely replied that I was only touching the surface, and that I need to go further down the rabit hole.

Well this last reference told me all I needed. Anyone who compares this whole thing to the matrix, is beyond return.

The only reason I am doing any of this, posting, writing, reading, is to inform others who might come into contact with the "dark side" of the REAL EVIDENCE in the matter. To pursuade them, before the CTers get to them, to use their sense of reasoning and logic, and their sense for what REAL EVIDENCE, really is. Hopefully, if we all do this, we might save a few from the CTers "rabbit Hole".

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

At the nineelevenUK forum they relegated me to a new "critics corner," so I bid them adieu. Guess their mods weren't so open-minded after all.
Remember Gravy, they are a movement. Though, from what I have seen/read, it's more of a bowel movement than anything else.

[Gravy]

Ok, I've figured it out. This is why D.A. and the crowd are so convinced on the gold issue.

I think they have a theory that the same little green men who planted the explosives in the wtc over 2-3 months, are also the ones who took all the gold (40 Million pounds according to the monetary value LC tells us) out.

Just like it took months for the leprechans to plant the bombs, so it took them that same amount of time to remove the gold...go in with explosives in your little sack, come out with a sack of gold...
Welcom to the forum, T.A.M.
Your WTC gold theory is far too sensible to make it into an Avery production. He contends that the airplane strikes were distractions for the gold theft, and that the $167 billion (lately they've been saying it's over $1 trillion) was removed between the time the first plane hit and the time the south tower collapsed: 73 minutes.

[60hzxtl]

Welcom to the forum, T.A.M.
Your WTC gold theory is far too sensible to make it into an Avery production. He contends that the airplane strikes were distractions for the gold theft, and that the $167 billion (lately they've been saying it's over $1 trillion) was removed between the time the first plane hit and the time the south tower collapsed: 73 minutes.


Gold is light enough isn't it?

And driving away from the WTC, as everyone was driving to it? Nothing to it!

Dylan makes a caper movie.

Still fiction.

[T.A.M.]

Thanks for the welcome. I've been over at SLC for a while, and then discovered this site through that one. Now I have another place where I can find the voices of reason in amongst the choir of idiots that seem to have overtaken the 9/11 issue.

As for the gold, it is heavy yes, but you see...dem leprachans, Dems is magik.

[Bronze Dog]

The gold was only wrapping. We're actually talking about gold-pressed latinum. The big-eared corporate aliens were behind it all. The government would have you believe it was the reptoids.

[Gravy]

I have come to the conclusion that the only point of arguing with the conspiracy theorists is for the benefit of onlookers. There is no real chance of changing minds that have been made up on the 9-11 issue; the only hope is to persuade those still on the fence.
I agree that the hard-core among them are nearly immune to changing their minds about anything, but who knows how many onlookers are onlookers because they're unsure about the facts? I took the time to make several long posts there because it seemed that their members had had precious little exposure to anything besides woo. They didn't take their defloration well.

[Regnad Kcin]

...They didn't take their defloration well.Dollars to donuts, many, many at LC are still in "full bloom."

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Welcom to the forum, T.A.M.
Your WTC gold theory is far too sensible to make it into an Avery production. He contends that the airplane strikes were distractions for the gold theft, and that the $167 billion (lately they've been saying it's over $1 trillion) was removed between the time the first plane hit and the time the south tower collapsed: 73 minutes.

Holy moley! Just roughing it for 2001:(http://eh.net/hmit/goldprice/answer.php)
Year U.S. Official Price
(dollars per fine ounce)
(end of year)
2001 42.222222

So, $1,000,000,000,000/$42.222222 = 23684210650.969529741944893378657 fine ounces
1 short ton = 32000 ounces
Therefore 23684210650.969529741944893378657 ounces = 740131.58284279780443577791808304 short tons.

Now, that site seems off compared to what screwloosechange has for the first time this came up. So, let's hit another historical gold price site:
http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/goldyear_new2.cgi
It shows gold at being ~US$287/ounce
Using that figure we have:
$1,000,000,000,000/$287 = 3484320557.4912891986062717770035 ounces
=> 108885.01742160278745644599303136 short tons

So, let's go with the second figure since (1) it is close to SLC's figure and (2) it favors the CT'ers way more than the first figure.
Therefore we have US$1,000,000,000,000 in gold, which works out to ~108885 tons. Per here http://science.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/armored-truck, we see an average route truck has a cargo load capacity of ~13,000, or 6.5 short tons. This means that you would need ~16752 trucks to haul the gold away.

Of course, as SCL(http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/great-gold-heist.html) was kind enough to point out; the gold reserves in the US at the time were 8,133.5 tons. Which works out to $180.1 billion as of June 1st 2006.

In short, I want to know who their crack-dealer is; because he is providing high grade junk.

[Gravy]

Those of you who've seen Loose Change or read my critique of it are aware that one of its main sources of disinformation is the American Free Press. The AFP is relatively new, and lists its predecessor as a publication called the Spotlight. I did some Googling on the Spotlight but didn't turn up much in my brief search. A reader has just emailed me with some very interesting (and not surprising) information, reprinted with permission:

"Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools."
-August Bebel

I just finished reading your excellent rebuttals to Loose Change and Loose Change 2, posted on 911Myths.com. I wanted to congratulate you on a job well done. I'd like to point out one thing, if I may, regarding your description of The American Free Press (AFP), which you correctly note is an "anti-Zionist", conspiracy-obsessed online publication. What you failed to note and what I think is of great importance in demonstrating the lengths to which Avery et al are willing to go to force the square pegs of history into the round holes of their claim, is that The AFP is not simply anti-Zionist(which I, personally, do not object to in and of itself) in orientation but is, in fact, the spin-off publication of the now defunct domestic neo-fascist organization, The Liberty Lobby (http://www.publiceye.org/toocloseliblobby.html), founded by American quasi-Nazi and conspiracist, Willis Carto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto). Formerly known as The Spotlight, The AFP is a perfect example of the "old wine in new skins" PR campaigns that many neo fascists and Third Positionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position) organizations have undertaken over the last few decades (perhaps best embodied by the current suit-and-tie public face of former (?) Klansmen and American Nazi, David Duke). While the pages of The AFP do not openly endorse things like Nazi-skinheads, Aryan Nations summerfests, Holocaust denial books and organizations, or sell Third Reich marching music CD's and Tapes, (unlike its former incarnation, The Spotlight) the fact that they proudly announce that their publication is "brought to you by the former staff of The Spotlight, who are now the publishers." should be more than enough reason for any serious researcher to keep a light year's distance between themselves and such a crackpot publication. Well, that and the piss-poor journalism advanced by its roster of rambling, reactionary, closeted and not-so-closeted Swastika-saluting scribes. Again, can someone tell me why Avery and his pals are relying so heavily on the neo-fascist AFP as a main source for LC2E? Could it be that they themselves, along with a growing number of so-called "alternative" researchers are, in some way, anti-Semites, or simply just fools? Is there a difference?

"Pope" Ralph Hernandez

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Those of you who've seen Loose Change or read my critique of it are aware that one of its main sources of disinformation is the American Free Press. The AFP is relatively new, and lists its predecessor as a publication called the Spotlight. I did some Googling on the Spotlight but didn't turn up much in my brief search. A reader has just emailed me with some very interesting (and not surprising) information, reprinted with permission:

Here's some corroborating info:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/secret_global_meeting.html

In 2000, when yours truly was with the now defunct Spotlight, it was positively determined that Bilderberg would meet in the area of Brussels, Belgium, June 1-3. But the precise location was unclear.


http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache:6XQPwVFzStkJ:www.americanfreepress. net/Liberty_Supplement.pdf+spotlight&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&ie=UTF-8&client=pub-5329003121141183
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Liberty_Supplement.pdf

Final Notes . . .
American Free Press newspaper (and before it
The Spotlight) were the only newspapers in America
we know of to expose the facts about this brutal and
wanton attack before the truth was aired on the
Discovery Channel more than 30 years after the


http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/taxpayers_strike.html

The suit was filed in U.S. District Court in Washington July 19, under auspices of the We the People Foundation, by Mark Lane, longtime general counsel to the now-defunct Spotlight and its publisher, Liberty Lobby.


If anyone is interested in more info on Liberty Lobby, Willis Carto, et al check out M. Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things in the Holocause deniers section.

I mean, dang, I know I said I thought their tactics bore a striking resemblence to Holocause deniers, but, wowza. I wouldn't have guess such a tight linkage.

[Gravy]

In short, I want to know who their crack-dealer is; because he is providing high grade junk.
Yes, I've done this calculation several times, for the gold claim in LC, for the recent claims, and for the (mostly silver) and gold that was actually removed from the vaults. It's a fun calculation to do, because idiocy is usually hard to quantify. The price of gold at EOM September, 2001 was $283.42, August was $272.49, per the World Gold Council. Know what's scary? I have those figures memorized.

[Gravy]

I mean, dang, I know I said I thought their tactics bore a striking resemblence to Holocause deniers, but, wowza. I wouldn't have guess such a tight linkage.
Thanks, Arkan. Scary stuff. Thanks for the reminder to read Shermer also.

[Kent1]

Those of you who've seen Loose Change or read my critique of it are aware that one of its main sources of disinformation is the American Free Press. The AFP is relatively new, and lists its predecessor as a publication called the Spotlight. I did some Googling on the Spotlight but didn't turn up much in my brief search. A reader has just emailed me with some very interesting (and not surprising) information, reprinted with permission:


In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/

[MarkyX]

Yes, I've done this calculation several times, for the gold claim in LC, for the recent claims, and for the (mostly silver) and gold that was actually removed from the vaults. It's a fun calculation to do, because idiocy is usually hard to quantify. The price of gold at EOM September, 2001 was $283.42, August was $272.49, per the World Gold Council. Know what's scary? I have those figures memorized.

This gives me a good idea for another "fun stuff" article to point out how much of an idiot Dylan Avery is...again

So what is the official price for an ounce of gold? I keep hearing wild numbers from 250 to 280, so which one is real?

[Kent1]

In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/

Also, this has some good information even if its from Hoffman's site
http://911review.com/denial/holocaust.html

[JamesB]

Here's some corroborating info:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/secret_global_meeting.html


http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache:6XQPwVFzStkJ:www.americanfreepress. net/Liberty_Supplement.pdf+spotlight&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&ie=UTF-8&client=pub-5329003121141183
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Liberty_Supplement.pdf


http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/taxpayers_strike.html


If anyone is interested in more info on Liberty Lobby, Willis Carto, et al check out M. Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things in the Holocause deniers section.

I mean, dang, I know I said I thought their tactics bore a striking resemblence to Holocause deniers, but, wowza. I wouldn't have guess such a tight linkage.

A couple of weeks ago when I was discussing the academic credibility of sources with Jim Fetzer, I mentioned the American Free Press (which the scholars reference in their "peer reviewed" journal) and sent him this link. No surprise, he didn't respond on this topic.

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/carto.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=carto

[apathoid]

In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/

It seems that alot of 911 "researchers" really dont have a clue when it comes to whats reputable and what isnt. I think its because their perception of reality and what's normal is soooo jaded and skewed.
For example, I did a search on one of them who's been at SLC spewing garbage, and I found him asking "whats wrong with judicialinc.biz ?" in an AirAmerica forum after somone asked him if he was serious when he linked it. judicialinc.biz is a hideous holocaust denial/neo-Nazi/Hitler supporting site laden with extremely disturbing images, swastikas, etc.... he found nothing wrong with it and couldnt see why others did. Amazing.

[Gravy]

In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/
Holy mackeral. Will the scum never cease? Does Mike know about this guy?

[Kent1]

Holy mackeral. Will the scum never cease? Does Mike know about this guy?

Yea. We've talked about him.

[Gravy]

Well, speaking of an overflowing loonucopia, I actually wish i'd found this site (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/2005awards.html) when I started my Loose Change research. It's Wing TV's 2005 "Best of" list. When the page loaded, I thought, "Oh, here's a nice top-ten list." And then I scrolled down. And scrolled. And scrolled.

Some of the pieces are hilarious. Until you remember that they're talking about the actions of real people.

[SRW]

http://paltalk.com/

There is a 9/11 conspriacy theory discussion. Hope you guys have a mic or good typists.

I recorded this place, when they were playing Betty Ong's call from flight 11. The part that was recorded. The rest is them tearing it appart and just the crap that is typical in this room. If anyone want a copy to post, PM me and I'll email it to you.

Steve

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, speaking of an overflowing loonucopia, I actually wish i'd found this site (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/2005awards.html) when I started my Loose Change research. It's Wing TV's 2005 "Best of" list. When the page loaded, I thought, "Oh, here's a nice top-ten list." And then I scrolled down. And scrolled. And scrolled.

Some of the pieces are hilarious. Until you remember that they're talking about the actions of real people.Woo Central, eh, Gravy?

[kevin]

So what is the official price for an ounce of gold? I keep hearing wild numbers from 250 to 280, so which one is real?

August gold is at $618 a troy ounce. December gold dropped to $630.30.

http://www.thestreet.com/_googlen/markets/commodities/10299251.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Not sure what it sells for today.

[XXX]

Well, speaking of an overflowing loonucopia, I actually wish i'd found this site (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/2005awards.html) when I started my Loose Change research. It's Wing TV's 2005 "Best of" list. When the page loaded, I thought, "Oh, here's a nice top-ten list." And then I scrolled down. And scrolled. And scrolled.

Some of the pieces are hilarious. Until you remember that they're talking about the actions of real people.

Oh, this list is great. Still lookig through it.

I love this though..."Most Blatant Example of a Cover-Up...The silencing of BYU Physics Professor Steven E. Jones --- A textbook example of information black-out."

Yea, he's so silenced that I can find his "paper" and all of his other latest theories all over the internet!

[XXX]

Oh, and in the "where do they come up with this stuff" catagory, we have...

"Most Overlooked 9-11 Smoking Gun of the Year...No Flight 93 at Shanksville --- The government's hoax has now been exposed for the entire world to see. Flight 93 (or something purporting to be Flight 93) was actually shot down over Indian Lake, Pa., and crash-landed in a tiny town called New Baltimore, Pa., which is located approximately 6-8 miles away from Shanksville. Thus, to create a massive diversion away from the actual crash site, a missile was fired into an abandoned strip mine in Shanksville, which then became the place where the media and curious onlookers were corraled."

[Regnad Kcin]

Yeah, not just Woo Central, but a woo black hole!

[EvilBiker]

August gold is at $618 a troy ounce. December gold dropped to $630.30.

Not sure what it sells for today.

http://www.business-standard.com/smartinvestor/storypage.php?leftnm=lmnu6&subLeft=11&autono=99236&tab=r

July 26th:

In the late afternoon trade, the yellow metal plummeted to $609 an ounce from the day’s opening at $614.

[CptColumbo]

Didn't Mr. T just swear off gold like it was smoking?

[Brainster]

In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/

We got cited in one of the Stormfront forums as good guys to debunk Dylan and Co. I'll have to look up the link tomorrow to see if the argument was about whether the Zionists were behind it.

Remember, the neo-Nazi link to 9-11 denial is not surprising. We've had the paranoid right mingling with the paranoid left over Israel for a couple decades. Add in the Muslims who want to deny Islamic involvement in 9-11 and you've got three groups who'd very much like to blame this on the Jews. Throw in the "neocon" euphemism for Jews and you've pretty much got Dylan Avery's position.

It's not that they're all neo-Nazis. It's just that they all find themselves with a commonality of interest in moving the story off 19 Arab terrorists.

[T.A.M.]

Somebody already tried to debunk 911myths. I remember reading it, and thinking that all the guy was doing was commenting on the tone of the information, and accusing Mike and gang of making a bunch of strawman arguments.

I doubt this guy will do anything more than that. It is hard to debunk the "REAL TRUTH" unless they continue their "making up lies" campaign. In that case, we'll all just have to shoot them down again.

[60hzxtl]

Remember, the neo-Nazi link to 9-11 denial is not surprising. We've had the paranoid right mingling with the paranoid left over Israel for a couple decades. Add in the Muslims who want to deny Islamic involvement in 9-11 and you've got three groups who'd very much like to blame this on the Jews. Throw in the "neocon" euphemism for Jews and you've pretty much got Dylan Avery's position.

Dylan Avey's position is in the center ring of the circus wearing the top hat. He has the ring on the right full of crackpots, and the ring on the left equaly full of crackpots, both with their agendas of havoc.

He wants to run the Greatest Snow on Earth.

[chipmunk stew]

Well, speaking of an overflowing loonucopia, I actually wish i'd found this site (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/2005awards.html) when I started my Loose Change research. It's Wing TV's 2005 "Best of" list. When the page loaded, I thought, "Oh, here's a nice top-ten list." And then I scrolled down. And scrolled. And scrolled.

Some of the pieces are hilarious. Until you remember that they're talking about the actions of real people.

And look who shows up at number 143:
Unsung Activist of the Year
Rick Rajter --- Oftentimes there are people behind-the-scenes who are doing even more work than those at the forefront. Rick Rajter is one of these individuals, and he certainly doesn't receive enough credit for it.

[Belz...]

Welcom to the forum, T.A.M.
Your WTC gold theory is far too sensible to make it into an Avery production. He contends that the airplane strikes were distractions for the gold theft, and that the $167 billion (lately they've been saying it's over $1 trillion) was removed between the time the first plane hit and the time the south tower collapsed: 73 minutes.

1 Trillion ?? Isn't that WAY MORE than the total sum of the world-wide gold reserves ?

Wow! These people can CREATE gold!

[MarkyX]

Somebody already tried to debunk 911myths. I remember reading it, and thinking that all the guy was doing was commenting on the tone of the information, and accusing Mike and gang of making a bunch of strawman arguments.

I doubt this guy will do anything more than that. It is hard to debunk the "REAL TRUTH" unless they continue their "making up lies" campaign. In that case, we'll all just have to shoot them down again.

Pretty much so. I got a fair bit of email saying that I am 'too sarcastic' at some points. Although I agree, it's intentional because this is just a bunch of bullcrap over and over again. I merely point out the BS and information hidden, and information hidden is not truth.

Some people refused to look past the point where I asked "where is the connection to 9/11" when they talk about Operation Northwoods and Drone pilots. To a critical thinker, the film doesn't make provide any evidence of a question and merely shows it's existence (a real documentary would show it), and I point this out. On the otherhand, dumb theorists think I am just 'asking questions' that doesn't provide anything :rolleyes:

And they wonder why the rest of the world views them as nuts. I find it ironic that they dislike the mainstream media BUT would take a propaganda film like Loose Change that even Hitler would be proud of without question.

I really hope that none of these people ever hold political power. It would be a real fascist state.

[aggle-rithm]

So what is the official price for an ounce of gold? I keep hearing wild numbers from 250 to 280, so which one is real?

I hope you're not naive enough to believe the OFFICAL price of gold. That's just a fabrication by the Zionists and the Joooos.

;)

[60hzxtl]

1 Trillion ?? Isn't that WAY MORE than the total sum of the world-wide gold reserves ?

Wow! These people can CREATE gold!


They have the lead.

The CT'ers and Loosers share much with alchemists.

[realitybites]

I don't even know what to say to this. I'm sitting here, trying to wrap my brain around it and come up with something witty, but the fact of the matter is, there's really no point.

Oliver Stone made World Trade Center as part of a DWI and drug possession deal. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8725)

[Grundar]

Since i can see johndoeX doesn't trust my translation and Arkan is having an argument with him about it I'll elaborate on it. If you want to continue the argument feel free to quote me.

jag = I
e (dialect) = är = am,is,are
knepp (dialect or misspelling) = knäpp = silly, loony, nuts

There is not one knepp in the Swedish on-line phone directory (www.eniro.se) only one Jage (does not even come close to knepp in his last name) and five or six with the last name Knäpp

Close English example would be Iam Stopid.

If he wants my credentials I'm from Sweden and it could be fun to ask him to find a swede thats not agreeing with the translation or if he rather trusts on-line translators. :D Of course it could be an exchange student but I find it extremely unlikely.

[longfellow]

I don't even know what to say to this. I'm sitting here, trying to wrap my brain around it and come up with something witty, but the fact of the matter is, there's really no point.

I know the feeling. I had a long reply all typed up and dumped it instead of submitting it because, truth be known, I think a vast majority of the members of the 'truth movement' are incapable of logical thinking (mutton-head and speakthetruth come to mind). The only thing they've 'proven' is that Stone was cited for DUI and drug possesion. It's akin to when Stone was quoted as saying 'he has every right to say what he wants' (paraphrasing) about Charlie Sheen's comments concerning 911. Some members of the (bowel) movement jumped on that as meaning Stone was a troofer when, logically, Stone may have been merely reaffirming Sheen's First Amendment rights.

Has anyone seen the thread in the 'investigate 911' section of that forum titled 'something not talked about' started by someone who calls themself 'the decider'? He's trying to make the case that the towers were so strong because of their cores. I seem to remember reading that the load split was 60/40 in favor of the exterior columns but I can't find it on the 'net. Am I remembering correctly?

Sorry, I can't post a link yet.

[Hutch]

Well, I started my first thread on Loose Change, basically on the Gold question because as a Logistics Specialist I find the idea of moving 18,000 tons of gold in 76 minutes rather...infeasible is the nicest word I can think of.

I was completely respectful and I think my questions were worded in a non-confrontational tone, but some were a direct challenge to Mr.Avery to answer, so we'll see if I smoke him out, or just get banned...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8829

[pgwenthold]

Since i can see johndoeX doesn't trust my translation and Arkan is having an argument with him about it I'll elaborate on it. If you want to continue the argument feel free to quote me.

jag = I
e (dialect) = är = am,is,are
knepp (dialect or misspelling) = knäpp = silly, loony, nuts

There is not one knepp in the Swedish on-line phone directory (www.eniro.se) only one Jage (does not even come close to knepp in his last name) and five or six with the last name Knäpp



Much less in the Stockholm University Chemistry department (although, to be fair, SU doesn't really have a "chemistry" department per se, but has departments of analytical chemistry, organic chemistry, etc.) I was not able to access the link to the Sociology dept, so I couldn't check there.

And it took all of like 2 minutes to check it out. Anyone can do it. There is no reason to argue about it, because it is trivial to look it up.

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, I started my first thread on Loose Change, basically on the Gold question because as a Logistics Specialist I find the idea of moving 18,000 tons of gold in 76 minutes rather...infeasible is the nicest word I can think of...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8829Re-read your first post, Hutch. Was it 167 or 176 bill?

[Kiwiwriter]

I'd heard that it was because not very many people fly on Tuesdays.

It was also the day after a holiday, Labor Day.

I think the main concern was weather...they wanted the attacks to go off early in the morning, with perfect wdeather, for maximum TV impact.

Remember that terrorism is more about psychological warfare than actual destruction.

[Kiwiwriter]

We got cited in one of the Stormfront forums as good guys to debunk Dylan and Co. I'll have to look up the link tomorrow to see if the argument was about whether the Zionists were behind it.

Remember, the neo-Nazi link to 9-11 denial is not surprising. We've had the paranoid right mingling with the paranoid left over Israel for a couple decades. Add in the Muslims who want to deny Islamic involvement in 9-11 and you've got three groups who'd very much like to blame this on the Jews. Throw in the "neocon" euphemism for Jews and you've pretty much got Dylan Avery's position.

It's not that they're all neo-Nazis. It's just that they all find themselves with a commonality of interest in moving the story off 19 Arab terrorists.

Funnily enough, when 9/11 took place, neo-Nazis cheered the atrocity and blamed it on their various Jewish menaces...they also issued statements admiring the terrorists who flew the planes, hailing them for killing Jews.

Neo-Nazis try to have their cake and eat it too.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Since i can see johndoeX doesn't trust my translation and Arkan is having an argument with him about it I'll elaborate on it. If you want to continue the argument feel free to quote me.

jag = I
e (dialect) = är = am,is,are
knepp (dialect or misspelling) = knäpp = silly, loony, nuts

There is not one knepp in the Swedish on-line phone directory (www.eniro.se) only one Jage (does not even come close to knepp in his last name) and five or six with the last name Knäpp

Close English example would be Iam Stopid.

If he wants my credentials I'm from Sweden and it could be fun to ask him to find a swede thats not agreeing with the translation or if he rather trusts on-line translators. :D Of course it could be an exchange student but I find it extremely unlikely.

Done. With appropriate credits. Thanks much! :)

[Kiwiwriter]

OK, does anybody else work for any US intelligence agency, either part-time or full-time?

I'm on Newark's Emergency Operations Committee and Homeland Security Committee. When the bomb is dropped, I'll be helping to run things from the bunker.

[Hutch]

Re-read your first post, Hutch. Was it 167 or 176 bill?

I used $167 B in my calculations; that is one reason I asked for clairification.

See your point, edited.

And Mutton-head, I do not work for any intelligence agency, but I have been an employee of the Department of Defense for the last 25 years..does that count?

[pgwenthold]

It was also the day after a holiday, Labor Day.



Labor Day was Sept 3, at least in the US.

[Kiwiwriter]

Labor Day was Sept 3, at least in the US.

I'm almost certain that September 10, 2001 was a Labor Day...I remembe waking up that morning, seeing what a beautiful day it was, and wishing I could call in sick, and take the day off. But I knew that my chain of command doesn't like people calling in sick the day after a three-day-weekend, without a doctor's note, so I went to work anyway.

[realitybites]

I'm almost certain that September 10, 2001 was a Labor Day...I remembe waking up that morning, seeing what a beautiful day it was, and wishing I could call in sick, and take the day off. But I knew that my chain of command doesn't like people calling in sick the day after a three-day-weekend, without a doctor's note, so I went to work anyway.
It was the 3rd. (http://www.smart.net/mmontes-cgi-bin/ushols.cgi) :)

[CptColumbo]

A person on the IMDB forum for 9/11, want to refer to the sides as "Non-believers" and "Believers." He/she didn't specify who is who. Since both sides believe something it's hard to tell.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0312318/board/nest/14763923

[pgwenthold]

I'm almost certain that September 10, 2001 was a Labor Day...I remembe waking up that morning, seeing what a beautiful day it was, and wishing I could call in sick, and take the day off. But I knew that my chain of command doesn't like people calling in sick the day after a three-day-weekend, without a doctor's note, so I went to work anyway.

Labor Day is always the first Monday in September. It isn't even one of those "the first Monday after the first weekend" things.

My folks' anniversary is on 9/1, and when it falls on a monday, is on Labor Day.

[T.A.M.]

Hutch:

This guy, Jerry, at the LC forum re:the gold, he seems almost...convincable. My question, is:

Did they open the vaults, or were the vaults demolished? If the vaults were in tact, then did they open them to find the gold. If they were demolished, then should there be gold in th rubble, and lots of it? I would think that there should still be some gold in them, unless the $230 Million was all the WTC had in it.

As well, I noticed so far, Jerry is the only intellegent one to make any form of sane comment to your post.

Seems to me they think the world works like the movies.

[T.A.M.]

Take a look at this link


worldwideweb.nymex.com/press_releas.aspx?id=pr20011116a
(sorry cant actually link yet)

It is a link to NYMEX. They say that the banks gold stored under the WTC was successfully relocated to a bank in Brooklyn.

Not sure if this company represents all the gold, but it might be something to consider.

[MarkyX]

Gravy, would you stillhave a copy of some of those interviews for that "Creators Speak" document ? Some of your sources are dead.

EDIT: Any outlandish things spoken by truth movement members also work. I might be doing a video of audio clips and interviews using just their voices and no opinion aside. Also, anyone know how to capture Google Video?

[Brainster]

In Jones newest paper there is a person named Rick Rajter (9/11 truth member) who is working on a "debunk" of Mikes 9/11 myths site. He states he will "focus on the top 10 examples of half truths, false information, speculation..."

Anyway, it seems this pattern continues within the "truth movement"
I guess he believes that Stormfront is a valid source for information.
http://hammeroftruth.com/2005/12/09/irans-president-questions-the-holocaust/

Wow, that's pretty disgusting. Rajter appears to be quite a holocaust denier. Better still, from our standpoint is that Morgan Reynolds seems quite happy to associate with him (http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=refuting_demolition_debunkers).

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wow, that's pretty disgusting. Rajter appears to be quite a holocaust denier. Better still, from our standpoint is that Morgan Reynolds seems quite happy to associate with him (http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=refuting_demolition_debunkers).

So, is it too early to conclude that some big name Holocause deniers are movers and shakers in the 9/11 "Truth" movement, and not just hangers on?

[Hutch]

Hutch:

As well, I noticed so far, Jerry is the only intellegent one to make any form of sane comment to your post.

Well, if you read some of his other threads, I am not so sure about the above...

Seems to me they think the world works like the movies.

Indeed. Nearly every reference/rebuttal over there is "Well, have you seen this movie?" or "Have you seen this youtube clip?" It is, I think, a fairly young crowd over there and much more oriented to see and accept things visually than old grouches like me who prefer reading and math.

I am not really sure that is a good thing for the future of my nation...

[Gravy]

Hutch:

This guy, Jerry, at the LC forum re:the gold, he seems almost...convincable. My question, is:

Did they open the vaults, or were the vaults demolished? If the vaults were in tact, then did they open them to find the gold. If they were demolished, then should there be gold in th rubble, and lots of it? I would think that there should still be some gold in them, unless the $230 Million was all the WTC had in it.

As well, I noticed so far, Jerry is the only intellegent one to make any form of sane comment to your post.

Seems to me they think the world works like the movies.

T.A.M., here are some iinks. The vaults were intact, although there's a report of one having blowtorch marks on it. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the recovered metal was silver. The second link has a picture of the vaults when they were opened.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/nov/17wtc.htm
http://cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-3102
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubes/vaultshudsonterminal.html
http://www.911myths.com/loose_change_2nd_ed._a_critical_review_of_the_gold _story_segment.pdf

[Gravy]

Gravy, would you stillhave a copy of some of those interviews for that "Creators Speak" document ? Some of your sources are dead.

EDIT: Any outlandish things spoken by truth movement members also work. I might be doing a video of audio clips and interviews using just their voices and no opinion aside. Also, anyone know how to capture Google Video?
I have all my transcriptions, but I'll check the links first. I may simply have typed them in wrong.

ETA: I Notice I didn't have the links to the Beyond the Ordinary interviews. They're all crazy but the one with Bermas is a killer. http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml

[aggle-rithm]

So, is it too early to conclude that some big name Holocause deniers are movers and shakers in the 9/11 "Truth" movement, and not just hangers on?

They probably just like to hang out with credulous people in general.

[Blackwell]

Also, anyone know how to capture Google Video?

Try www.keepvid.com

ETA: You can also click the "download" button to the right of the vid in Google, but that downloads the Google Video Player app, then downloads the video clip as a ".gvi" file - sounds proprietary, so I doubt you'd be able to import and edit that in a video editor. keepvid.com allows you to select the file type for the video download, including Quicktime and WMV.

[kevin]

Labor Day is always the first Monday in September. It isn't even one of those "the first Monday after the first weekend" things.

My folks' anniversary is on 9/1, and when it falls on a monday, is on Labor Day.

Yeah, Labor day has never occured on the 10th, the latest it can occur is the 7th. my birthday is the 4th so I always have a 3 day weekend right around my birthday.

[kevin]

This gives me a good idea for another "fun stuff" article to point out how much of an idiot Dylan Avery is...again

So what is the official price for an ounce of gold? I keep hearing wild numbers from 250 to 280, so which one is real?

for 2001 i see prices of $250, which is a nice round number. To get a billiion dollars in gold at $250/troy ounc you would have to get 137 tons of gold. To get a trillion dollars you would need 137,143 tons. Even at todays prices of around $600 a troy ounce you need 57 tons for a billion dollars.

according to the usgs
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/gold/300301.pdf
as of 2000 all the gold ever mined added up to 130,000 tons, of which 15% has been lost. Of the remaining 110,000 tons, 33,300 tons are held by banks and 77,200 tons are privately held.

[T.A.M.]

If I am not mistaken, isnt 25-30% of the worlds gold supply held in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, 33 Liberty Ave (266 Million Troy Ounces). At todays rate, it is only estimated at $90-120 Billion. In addition another 15-20% of the worlds Gold is in Fort Knox (144 Million Troy Ounces).

That is 40-55% of the worlds gold in those two locations. AM I suppose to believe that almost all of the remaining gold in the ENTIRE world ($160 Billions worth, or even worse a trillion, which is more that the worlds supply) was located under the WTC on 9/11?

SO if D.A. are right, then all the official gold in the world, in terms of "bars" at least, are held in only three locations on earth, all in the US. Seems a little un realistic.

[60hzxtl]

If I am not mistaken, isnt 25-30% of the worlds gold supply held in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, 33 Liberty Ave (266 Million Troy Ounces). At todays rate, it is only estimated at $90-120 Billion. In addition another 15-20% of the worlds Gold is in Fort Knox (144 Million Troy Ounces).

That is 40-55% of the worlds gold in those two locations. AM I suppose to believe that almost all of the remaining gold in the ENTIRE world ($160 Billions worth, or even worse a trillion, which is more that the worlds supply) was located under the WTC on 9/11?

SO if D.A. are right, then all the official gold in the world, in terms of "bars" at least, are held in only three locations on earth, all in the US. Seems a little un realistic.


And two of those locations are (were) within a mile of each other in Manhattan?


Dylan's Caper Mooovie!

[Belz...]

I am not really sure that is a good thing for the future of my nation...

Move to Canada. We have lots of beer here!!

Eh.

[kevin]

If I am not mistaken, isnt 25-30% of the worlds gold supply held in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, 33 Liberty Ave (266 Million Troy Ounces).

According to this site, they have about 9000 tons.
http://www.theinsider.com/nyc/attractions/2federal.htm

[Gravy]

Gravy, would you stillhave a copy of some of those interviews for that "Creators Speak" document ? Some of your sources are dead.
Here's the corrected list. Several links have changed. One or two are direct downloads of realplayer files. There's a lot of new stuff on the LC forum Media page: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?

Here's an interview that's on Avery's Wikipedia page: "Interview in The John Ziegler Show (KFI AM 640, Los Angeles, CA)" (http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/LOSANGELES-CA/KFI-AM/Ziegler7P062306.mp3), Segment begins at approximately 18:10, 2006-06-23.

1) The Edge AM Daniel Ott with Dylan Avery May 13, 2006 www.theedgeam.com/interviews/audiofiles.htm

2) Eric Hufschmid telephone interview with Avery, Rowe & Bermas 4/28/06 www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

3) Black Ops Radio interview with Avery May 14, 2006 http://www.blackopradio.com/black270a.ram

4) CBC TV Canada interview with Avery May 17, 2006 http://resurrectingthelede.blogspot.com/2006/05/loose-change-author-on-canadian.html

5) Video interview with Avery April 30, 2006 http://wnymedia.net/video/DylanAveryInterviewLooseChange_300k.wmv

6) WingTV audio file with Avery http://www.911underground.com/WING_TV_2004-11-01_Dylan_Avery_Interview.MP3

7) Republic Broadcasting Radio interview, John Stadtmiller with Avery 12/6//05
Part 1: http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0512/20051206_Tue_Stadtmiller1.mp3 Part 2: http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0512/20051206_Tue_Stadtmiller2.mp3

8) Press Release Arizona tour http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_forum/index.php?showtopic=4527

9) WingTV segment re: Naudet brothers legal action against Avery May 30, 2006 http://real.undergroundnyc.com/ramgen/classicmixes/wing-loose.rm

10) Fox News Binghamton story on LC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=Dylan%20Avery

11) Loose Change review: Changelinks Progressive Newspaper www.change-links.org/loosechange.htm

12) Alex Jones interview with Avery 1/19/06 (Link is dead but it's available as a bittorrent file: http://www.mininova.org/tor/203661 )

13) Republic Broadcasting Stadtmiller with Avery & Jayhan 8/9/05 http://mp3rbnlive.com/stadt/050820050809_Tue_Stadtmiller/.mp3

14) Article: DavidCogswell.com May 23, 2006

15) Loose Change Second Edition DVD Extras Ground Zero September 11, 2005

16) Deadline Live radio interview Jack Blood with Avery 4/7/05 http://www.loosechange911.com

17) The Brothers Plue podcast 12/29/05 http://www.plueballs.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=44295

18) Loose Change Second Edition West coast Premiere May 2, 2006 Part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-810472779099754665

19) Beyond the Ordinary Radio interview with Avery & Rowe http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml

20) Beyond the Ordinary Radio interview with Avery & Bermas http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml

21) Beyond the Ordinary Radio interview with Bermas http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/loosechange.shtml

22) Air America Phoenix Fred McChesney interview with Avery, Rowe, Bermas 4/15/06 http://www.foxlies.com/Media/Fred%20McChesney%20Show%204-15-06%20%20Hour2.mp3

23) LC2E review: http://www.911blogger.com/2005/12/loose-change-second-edition-full.html

[Gravy]

According to this site, they have about 9000 tons.
http://www.theinsider.com/nyc/attractions/2federal.htm
Yes, and you can take a tour of the vaults. It's quite impressive. Unfortunately, most of it is the gold of foreign nations. They trust us to hold it, despite its obvious vulnerability to theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Hard:_With_a_Vengeance). Debts are settled by moving gold from one nation's room to another.

[CurtC]

I used $167 B in my calculations; that is one reason I asked for clairification.
By the way, I didn't check your calculations in detail, but did you remember to adjust for the fact that an ounce of gold is measured in troy ounces, of which there are 12 in a troy pound, and a troy pound is less than an avoirdupois (sp?) pound?

That last adjustment is pretty minor, but it's my duty to be a pedant!

[T.A.M.]

I just downloaded the World Gold Holdings for September 2001 (source = World Gold Council, gold.org)

USA = 8135.3 Tonnes x 32,151 Troy Ounces per TONNE
= 261,558,030 Troy Ounces x $265.90 per troy ounce (end August 2001)
= $69,548,280,177.00

So there was only $69 Billion Dollars worth of gold in all of the USA Holdings in September of 2001 ... Cold hard fact, from the worlds leading authority, The World Gold Council.

Go to gold.org and join (it is free), then down load the World Gold Holdings for September 2001 from their archive. DO the calculations yourself.

Dylan Avery is CATAGORICALLY WRONG on the gold issue. END OF STORY.

[Gravy]

Also, anyone know how to capture Google Video?
911myths.com has a good page on downloading internet video:
http://www.911myths.com/html/downloading_videos.html

[Gravy]

I just downloaded the World Gold Holdings for September 2001 (source = World Gold Council, gold.org)

USA = 8135.3 Tonnes x 32,151 Troy Ounces per TONNE
= 261,558,030 Troy Ounces x $265.90 per troy ounce (end August 2001)
= $69,548,280,177.00

So there was only $69 Billion Dollars worth of gold in all of the USA Holdings in September of 2001 ... Cold hard fact, from the worlds leading authority, The World Gold Council.

Go to gold.org and join (it is free), then down load the World Gold Holdings for September 2001 from their archive. DO the calculations yourself.

Dylan Avery is CATAGORICALLY WRONG on the gold issue. END OF STORY.
Yes, indeed. I used the World Gold Council's figures for my Loose Change Viewer guide analysis. You do need to keep in mind that their figures show the gold OWNED by each country, but don't show where that gold is located. As noted above, much foreign gold is located in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's vaults.

[T.A.M.]

True, but if you add up the total in all countries, I belief you get 32000 TONNES, which even if you 69 Billion x 4, you get only 320 Billion Dollars worth of gold, that is for the entire world. So based, on my previous calculation, and the fact that 45% of the worlds gold is held in Fort Knox and Fed Redserve bank NY together, that leaves 55% of 320 Billion, which is about 180-190 Billion Dollars of Gold, left in the ENTIRE WORLD, outside those two institutions. SO Dylan then claims that almost all of that ($160 Billion) was underneath WTC1

Outrageous..and that was the old claim. Now they are claiming near $1 Trillion, which is triple the worlds total gold holdings at that time.

All the gold ever mined, in the entire world, over all of time = 145,000 Tonnes.
based on his new value, the WTC Vault held about 85% of all of the gold in the entire world since the beginning of mining it. beyond laughable.

that said, I take back that he was CATAGORICALLY WRONG. But he is still wrong...lol

[Hutch]

Curt, I used the 16oz to a lb. calculation, so my numbers may be off.

And I'm reserving the rest of your most informative and supportive posts until I see if Mr. Avery or someone else will commit to exactly what they mean and the numbers they believe in.

If I was a betting man, this accusation will be deleted or significantly modified in LC3; The Incredible Shrinking Movie..

But maybe Dylan does not always fall for the Fool's mate...

[T.A.M.]

160,000,000,000 / 265.9 = 601,729,974 troy ounces

601,729,974 / 32,151 (troy ounces per tonne) = 18,716 TONNES

Total WORLD GOLD HOLDINGS SEPT 2001 = 33,586 TONNES

So D.A. calculates that over half of all the world gold holdings, that is for the ENTIRE PLANET, was located under WTC on 9/11

[60hzxtl]

160,000,000,000 / 265.9 = 601,729,974 troy ounces

601,729,974 / 32,151 (troy ounces per tonne) = 18,716 TONNES

Total WORLD GOLD HOLDINGS SEPT 2001 = 33,586 TONNES

So D.A. calculates that over half of all the world gold holdings, that is for the ENTIRE PLANET, was located under WTC on 9/11


That wouldn't take long to move would it?

Loose Gold?

Fools Gold?

Loose Fools Gold?

Loose Gold Change?

Dylan's next fictional movie - the music will be the most truthful part - painful but truthful.

[Brainster]

Here's the corrected list. Several links have changed. One or two are direct downloads of realplayer files. There's a lot of new stuff on the LC forum Media page:

22) Air America Phoenix Fred McChesney interview with Avery, Rowe, Bermas 4/15/06 http://www.foxlies.com/Media/Fred%20McChesney%20Show%204-15-06%20%20Hour2.mp3

McChesney's a complete nutter; I like to listen to his Saturday afternoon show for grins because he's so off the wall. You should hear him talk on JFK.

[T.A.M.]

What is really funny is not only the figure, $160 Billion, but also that he doesn't even quote a reference for this number. I can't find a single reference anywhere, besides the CT sites, that give this number, anywhere. Most legitimate sites say $200-$300 Millions worth was stored in the WTC vault.

[MarkyX]

Man I got some nice clips so far, but I need more then just Dylan Avery, Jason Bermes, and Jim "Bruce Willis" Fetzer.

Anyone got any clips of other members that can show what kind of jackasses they are? Audio and Video are welcome.

[tacodaemon]

Just when i thought i'd seen everything troother-related, this article (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/911passengerlist.html) from that WingTV list blew my mind:

Which brings me to Ellen Mariani: she’s the woman who lost her husband Louis on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower on 9-11. With the help of a lawyer named Phil Berg, she filed a lawsuit against President Bush and company under the RICO act. Also, she refused to take the hush money that was offered to her under the 9-11 Victims Compensation fund.

In addition, I had just discovered Black Op Radio earlier in the year and found an interesting show in their archives (# 156) on which Ellen and Mr. Berg appeared as guests. This may be the single biggest point concerning 9-11, and hopefully the last nail in the coffin of our government's lies. During this broadcast, Mrs. Mariani said that she was the only relative of all the passengers that died on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower. Her lawyer, Phil Berg, repeated this statement.

I listened to this show over and over again and couldn't believe what she had just said. Everything came together at this point. That’s when it dawned on me that not only had our government lied about the physics of 9-11; they may very well have taken it one step farther by faking the number of people that died that day. I believed what she and Mr. Berg had just said. Nothing about 9-11 made any sense. Why should it start now?

Not knowing then what I know now, Ellen and Phil believed that for some reason the government was holding back the names of the people that had died on Flight 175. She had tried to get in touch with the relatives of other family members, but to no avail. You see, she and her lawyer believed, just like most other people believe, that four jets had been hijacked by Arab terrorists and crashed into buildings and into the ground at Shanksville. I, on the other hand, had already swept those lies aside.

:eek:

[CurtC]

I have the book The History of Money by Jack Weatherford. It's not heavily footnoted, but the first paragraph of chapter 12 says that Fort Knox has 4600 tons, there is 1781 tons at Westpoint, 1368 tons in Denver, and a little under 1000 tons in other parts of the Federal Reserve, giving the United States a total of around 8000 tons of gold with a market value of ~$100 billion. The book is from 1997.

Then it adds:
Many governments store some of their bullion in a silent vault within the bedrock of lower Manhattan Island, 80 feet below street level in the Federal Reserve Bank. It is stacked in bars, each weighing 400 troy ounces and having a market price of $160,000 [$400 per ounce]. The gold is divided among several different chambers, the largest of which contains a walll composed of 107,000 gold bricks stacked 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 18 feet deep. Deposited by many governments, the 10,000 tons of god bars have a value of more than $125 billion. The vault contains about a quarter of al the mined gold in the world.

Google tells me that 10000 tons is 291,666,667 troy ounces. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=10000+tons+in+pounds&btnG=Search)

[pgwenthold]

In addition, I had just discovered Black Op Radio earlier in the year and found an interesting show in their archives (# 156) on which Ellen and Mr. Berg appeared as guests. This may be the single biggest point concerning 9-11, and hopefully the last nail in the coffin of our government's lies. During this broadcast, Mrs. Mariani said that she was the only relative of all the passengers that died on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower. Her lawyer, Phil Berg, repeated this statement.


Are they maybe confusing "only relative" with "only relative willing to participate in this idiotic lawsuit"?

[Gravy]

Curt, I used the 16oz to a lb. calculation, so my numbers may be off.

And I'm reserving the rest of your most informative and supportive posts until I see if Mr. Avery or someone else will commit to exactly what they mean and the numbers they believe in.

If I was a betting man, this accusation will be deleted or significantly modified in LC3; The Incredible Shrinking Movie..

But maybe Dylan does not always fall for the Fool's mate...
In my "open letter' to the head Loosers in "Loose Change Creators Speak," I pointed out the idiocy of their first gold claim topped by the insanity of the new trillion-dollar claim. I know they received my document but don't know how much of it they read. I hope at least someone in the CT world has advised them against including this. After all, the new version is going to be "airtight."

[Gravy]

Are they maybe confusing "only relative" with "only relative willing to participate in this idiotic lawsuit"?
My guess is that she means she's the only one who didn't take the government's settlement offer.

[Gravy]

Man I got some nice clips so far, but I need more then just Dylan Avery, Jason Bermes, and Jim "Bruce Willis" Fetzer.

Anyone got any clips of other members that can show what kind of jackasses they are? Audio and Video are welcome.
The number one clip that stands out in my mind is Alex Jones's primal sobfest about the NWO taking over on 9/11. I've never made fun of someone's reaction to 9/11 before, but this is way outta control. http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

The Alex Jones archives are a treasure trove of 9/11 paranoia.

But it's very hard to beat the archives of the Republic Broadcast Newtork for 9/11 lunacy:
http://www.rbnlive.com/archiveindex.html

Dozens of archive shows by John Stadtmiller (National Intel Report), Jim Fetzer, Christopher(a) Bollyn, Greg Szymanski, Webster Tarpley, Michael Collins Piper.

Eta: How about this lineup from Szymanski's show (be sure to read the last sentence):
Wed., December 7, 2005:
Guests: Jimmy Walter, involved with the 9/11 truth movement, created an event "The New Perl Harbor Confronting the Evidence the Real Investigation Into 9/11 2001" in Tampa, Florida. from www.ReOpen911.org and
Col. George Nelson, Eric Hufschmidt and Nila Sagadevan, are members of (SPINE) Scientific Perfessionals Investigating Nine Eleven.

[MarkyX]

I got a penn and teller bit for Jimmy Walter, although more interviews would be nice.

I am going to need lots of images now, currently something to do with Flight 93 with Jim Fetzer talking down to one of the victim's nephew. Remember that I am not giving my opinion, I'm going to use visual evidence to counter what they are saying, and I plan on screenshotting articles.

[gumboot]

People,

You've got the gold thing wrong. C'mon now. It's all very simple.

The eeeeevil Bush-loving Saudis had $1 trillion in gold under the WTC. They hatched a plan with Bush to destroy the WTC as a decoy to enable them to sneak in and steal all of the gold EXCEPT $230 million or so.

Once they had stolen MOST of their gold they then claimed they had only ever had $230 million (clearly a dirty dirty lie).

So there you have it. All very simple. The 9/11 attacks were a distraction to enable a bunch of Saudis to steal most (but not all) of their own gold.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

Incidentally...

Going off on a tangent...

It has oft been repeated that the Pentagon was hit on the opposite side to the Sec. of Defence's office. Yet in an account of Rumsfeld's actions on 9/11 (it may have been the 9/11 commission report) I remember reading something that suggested his office was much closer to the impact area.

Does anyone actually KNOW where the Sec. of Defence's office is within the Pentagon? (That is, in a public, non-classified kind of way... I know all you Gubmit Shills know where it is... ;))

-Andrew

[Brainster]

Just when i thought i'd seen everything troother-related, this article (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/911passengerlist.html) from that WingTV list blew my mind:

:eek:

Oh, gosh, another one of the "Sacred Lists"! This time it's the 9-11 Victim's Compensation Fund. How many of these have we seen?

1. Passenger Manifests (not including hijackers)
2. Autopsies (ditto)
3. Social Security Death Index
4. NTSB Accident Reports not filled out for 9-11 hijackings
5. The List of Tail Numbers (not having the two United planes retired until 2005)
6. The List of Tail Numbers (that the guy in Chicago kept of all the planes he flew on).
7. 9-11 Victim's Compensation Fund

Any more?

Items mysteriously missing from Sacred Lists are always a great source of interest to the CT crowd.

[MarkyX]

Here is a small trailer. Again, I need more help with various images and clips to make this work right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhSd8jh19jk

EDIT: New stuff involving Jim Fetzer putting all structual engineers to hell.

[tacodaemon]

I also see from WingTV that Operation Northwoods is becoming firmly ensconced in JFK assassination crackpottery (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/jfk.html) too. Yeah, the eeeevil gubmit had him whacked because he didn't approve the Northwoods plan.

[Gravy]

Here is a small trailer. Again, I need more help with various images and clips to make this work right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhSd8jh19jk

EDIT: New stuff involving Jim Fetzer putting all structual engineers to hell.
I think it's a brilliant idea. (Btw, the clip you linked to is Avery with Jack Blood, not Fetzer.)

Obviously, it's a work in progress, but I'll put my two cents in.
The visual in this clip is very distracting. It's asking a lot for people to try to comprehend the video and the audio. It's powerful audio, and just playing it over the LC title "Dedicated to the lives we lost..." might be effective. Also, while the video is terrifying, it doesn't otherwise relate to the audio. Perhaps some stills of the passengers who called in reporting the hijackers with knives and bombs, having stabbed people (with their quotes as subtitles) would be an effective counterpart to Avery's "laugh in their face" quote. At times, emphasizing the audio quotes with the transcription as titles (as they do in LC), makes comprehension easier.

In order for somthing like this to be powerful, it needs to be comprehensible. My preference when viewing things like this is to that they be quite slow, and that each element stand on its own, so that it can sink in. It's also important to identify the speakers. I like plenty of time to read or watch and plenty of time to listen, and I don't like it when those elements are mixed too much. But that's just me.

[kookbreaker]

I found another example for those who say fire cannot damage or weaken steel:

The Philadelphia I-95 tire fire. (http://www.epa.gov/region3/revitalization/waste_tires/ragen%20-%20case%20study%202.pdf)

Relevant pages, 12+.

Steel rebar was weakened even through concrete. I-beams buckled. That part of I-95 was closed for months.

[MarkyX]

I think it's a brilliant idea. (Btw, the clip you linked to is Avery with Jack Blood, not Fetzer.)

Obviously, it's a work in progress, but I'll put my two cents in.
The visual in this clip is very distracting. It's asking a lot for people to try to comprehend the video and the audio. It's powerful audio, and just playing it over the LC title "Dedicated to the lives we lost..." might be effective. Also, while the video is terrifying, it doesn't otherwise relate to the audio. Perhaps some stills of the passengers who called in reporting the hijackers with knives and bombs, having stabbed people (with their quotes as subtitles) would be an effective counterpart to Avery's "laugh in their face" quote. At times, emphasizing the audio quotes with the transcription as titles (as they do in LC), makes comprehension easier.

In order for somthing like this to be powerful, it needs to be comprehensible. My preference when viewing things like this is to that they be quite slow, and that each element stand on its own, so that it can sink in. It's also important to identify the speakers. I like plenty of time to read or watch and plenty of time to listen, and I don't like it when those elements are mixed too much. But that's just me.

Got any images of knife slash victims and the victims of 9/11? Or quotes?

I am very squimish so..nothing nasty.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I've been butting heads with the chicken coop arsonist on his blog. ( http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2006/07/911-foreknowledge.html ) He's appearantly stuck on the delusion that Judy "Scholars for Tooth" Wood is an actual structural engineer.

I've been searching for any indication of her degrees and qualifications on the web, but haven't been able to find any. I'm guessing Mr. Chicken Coop can't find any either of he'd post them in big block captitals and laugh his ass off at me.

Has anyone found anything on the billiard ball lady and what actual degrees she has?

EDIT: Oh bloody hell...

For god's sake, this is idiotic that I have to point this out. Dr. Wood is a trained structural engineer who works on the structure and strength of teeth. Basically, she does structural bio-engineering. What is so hard to understand about how her work relates to building structure and strength?... Like it or not, Dr. Wood is a structural engineer. She works in a Mechanical Engineering Dept, because that is often where structural engineers work.


Somebody fell out of the stupid tree (where the Keebler elves live?) and nailed every branch on the way down. :P

[Gravy]

Does anyone actually KNOW where the Sec. of Defence's office is within the Pentagon? (That is, in a public, non-classified kind of way... I know all you Gubmit Shills know where it is... ;))

-Andrew
Yes, opposite side, 3rd floor, E-ring. Diagram here:
http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/pentagonimpact.jpg

[MarkyX]

Ah this is going to be harder then I thought.

I need to make images to somewhat entertain the listen while somewhat related to the subject.

[Gravy]

Got any images of knife slash victims and the victims of 9/11? Or quotes?

I am very squimish so..nothing nasty.
There are pictures of passengers who made the calls, and several quotes from them and other passengers, in the phone calls section near the end of LC. Hey, you know that!

I'd stay away from actual slashing photos.

[Gravy]

I've been butting heads with the chicken coop arsonist on his blog. ( http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2006/07/911-foreknowledge.html ) He's appearantly stuck on the delusion that Judy "Scholars for Tooth" Wood is an actual structural engineer.

I've been searching for any indication of her degrees and qualifications on the web, but haven't been able to find any. I'm guessing Mr. Chicken Coop can't find any either of he'd post them in big block captitals and laugh his ass off at me.

Has anyone found anything on the billiard ball lady and what actual degrees she has?

EDIT: Oh bloody hell...
Somebody fell out of the stupid tree (where the Keebler elves live?) and nailed every branch on the way down. :P
Her degree is in mechanical engineering. She is absolutely not a structural engineer, as anyone who sees this can tell:
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044c276fdc1dff.jpg
Here's a page that lists her areas of research.
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/~woodj/

Note that she lists her sponsors as the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR).

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yeah, I know about the clemson.edu link.

I showed it to them and that's where the chicken coop arsonist came up with the "structural bio-engineering" (WTF?!) garbage.

[MarkyX]

I've decided to keep the video. As I stated, I am trying to put less subtitles and more visual. I got a nice clip showing Bernard Junior, his age, just to show how much of a jackass Avery is.

Jim Fetzer is going to be a problem because he is so..out htere. One topic deals with him insulting a FLight 93 nephew victim (I currenlty using some pictures of the Flight 93 victims, not sure if it's effective) and the next one talks about how Structual Engineers are all ******** and everything.

[Brainster]

Ah this is going to be harder then I thought.

I need to make images to somewhat entertain the listen while somewhat related to the subject.

Don't forget that you can just post the words they're speaking on the screen.

One of my new favorites is from Old Plague Puppy himself, Jeff King. It's included in the September 11 Revisited (http://www.911revisited.com/video.html) movie. Believe it or not, the doofus says (sometime shortly after 27:00):

"When I first saw the collapses I knew they were not spontaneous."

Well, so did 300 million other Americans; we deduced instantly that the collapses of the towers had something to do with the 767s that had crashed into them shortly before.

There's also a clip of Kevin Ryan being interviewed where he notes, "I'm not the smartest guy in the world." One of the great understatements of the 9-11 movement. I think that was from the smorgasbord. James linked a speech by Judy Wood on the Keebler elves and how they relate to 9-11.

Has anybody ever posted video or audio of Fetzer's comments about how in the good old days the mob would have torn Bush to pieces? That's certainly terrific. Also, consider the ending of Loose Change V1, where Dylan calls for the passengers (i.e. the citizens) to take back the plane (the USA) from the hijackers (the Bush Administration).

Also, don't forget Spooked 9-11's experiments (no video or audio) and you may also get some benefit out of that Penn & Teller episode on the 9-11 Deniers--Jimmy Walker in his space cadet outfit is memorable. Hufschmid's definitely worth a look as well; his movie's out there. How about Rick the child prodigy from 9-11 Eyewitness? The latest version of that movie has the nukes going off in the basement of the WTC. Or, if you can stand it, a little bit of "Who Killed John O'Neill" with the John Nash-style diagram on the wall.

Have any of the no-planers managed to put together any clips? I'm sure Killtown or the Web Fairy have done something along those lines; they'd certainly be memorable. When looking for this stuff, you can probably follow Chuck Sheen's frequent advice and look at Universal Seed.

How about some stuff on Gypsy and her whistle-blowing, followed by some (tasteful) shots of her flag routine on the 4th of July?

Also, you might think about organizing the stuff by topic. For example, if you wanted to talk about paranoia among the 9-11 Deniers, you could use the clip from the Smorgasbord with Zwicker talking about "Of course they've infiltrated our movement", and Dylan talking in a brief interview about how he's sure he's on "a list" (another Sacred List!) somewhere. I'm sure there's plenty of other paranoid stuff out there (Hufschmid's graphic showing all the "poisoned" 9-11 Deniers, for example).

[MarkyX]

Nah I ain't doing it by topic. It is somewhat random, mainly to throw a curveball to the audience.

But I need link to those footage! I can't scout every piece of film there.

I decided to add some "black spots" at some points then add a picture every now and then. It is radio after all. Remember that this video is based on interviews on the media, not personal documents. Although gyspy will be fun to tease.

[Kaarjuus]

I agree that the hard-core among them are nearly immune to changing their minds about anything, but who knows how many onlookers are onlookers because they're unsure about the facts? I took the time to make several long posts there because it seemed that their members had had precious little exposure to anything besides woo. They didn't take their defloration well.

I saw at least one person there being persuaded by your writings (incidentally, the one who suggested you need a mouthguard at Ground Zero). Although, he wasn't convinced that 9/11 wasn't an inside job, he just abandoned Loose Change.

[Shaun from Scotland]

I think you all may be interested in this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5216788.stm

Will be interesting to see the show when its broadcast (it will probably turn up in the USA as Nova)

[Shaun from Scotland]

It is actually not clear from the above link that they have tried to replicate the truss arrangment in the WTC to see how fire affects it. I read this in a free newspaper which doesn't have a great online presence. I will try to hunt down more info about it.

[gtc]

Here is a Scotland on Sunday article (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1068572006) about the tower block fire.

It sounds to me like a general investigation about how to better respond to building fires (and maybe prevent them too), rather than a serious investigation into the ins and outs of 911.

[MarkyX]

I made a new thread on my video idea. And I updated the intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBT0lC77ayA

[Kiwiwriter]

It was the 3rd. (http://www.smart.net/mmontes-cgi-bin/ushols.cgi) :)

Then I must have taken that Monday off for some reason.

[Kiwiwriter]

Wow, that's pretty disgusting. Rajter appears to be quite a holocaust denier. Better still, from our standpoint is that Morgan Reynolds seems quite happy to associate with him (http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=refuting_demolition_debunkers).


Read his alleged material. He quotes Ernst Zundel and David Cole. The former has been discredited and the latter has recanted his anti-Semitic positions.

Rajter is spouting the broken record of Holocaust denial that has been debunked and discredited.

His main anger is against Israel and the Jews, and denying the Holocaust is part of the effort to paint Israel specifically and Jews generically as evil monsters. In the world of Holocaust denial, the Holocaust never happened, but the Jews deserved what they got.

So given that 9/11 was a product of the endless Mid-East wars, 'm not surprised Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis latched onto it right away for their own agendas. Some say the Jews did it, others applaud the destruction. All of it is sickening.

[chipmunk stew]

I made a new thread on my video idea. And I updated the intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBT0lC77ayA
Wow, MUCH more powerful. I feel far more ill viewing it this time. Nicely done.

[Kiwiwriter]

Well, if you read some of his other threads, I am not so sure about the above...



Indeed. Nearly every reference/rebuttal over there is "Well, have you seen this movie?" or "Have you seen this youtube clip?" It is, I think, a fairly young crowd over there and much more oriented to see and accept things visually than old grouches like me who prefer reading and math.

I am not really sure that is a good thing for the future of my nation...

Interesting idea....we now have multiple generations that grew up with the almighty box...and they regard what they see on it as real, and anything written as a "story." That's food for thought...or thood for fought.

[MarkyX]

Wow, MUCH more powerful. I feel far more ill viewing it this time. Nicely done.

Yeah, I just finished the Bernard Brown section and the Todd Beamer one on AirAmerica (the one listed in Screw Loose Change, ironically enough which was I going to do after I visited the site)

If Alex Jones can do ArnoldExposed.com, I can do the same thing. Freedom of Speech and Expression is my favorite right.

[c0rbin]

Warm fuzzies from Loose Change Forum:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/6344c8cb359abcf.gif

[Brainster]

Read his alleged material. He quotes Ernst Zundel and David Cole. The former has been discredited and the latter has recanted his anti-Semitic positions.

Rajter is spouting the broken record of Holocaust denial that has been debunked and discredited.

His main anger is against Israel and the Jews, and denying the Holocaust is part of the effort to paint Israel specifically and Jews generically as evil monsters. In the world of Holocaust denial, the Holocaust never happened, but the Jews deserved what they got.

So given that 9/11 was a product of the endless Mid-East wars, 'm not surprised Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis latched onto it right away for their own agendas. Some say the Jews did it, others applaud the destruction. All of it is sickening.

Yes, and the odd thing is that blog he was posting at looks like it's mostly a Libertarian blog, not a Libertaryan blog. I did some looking into him at SLC; he's an MIT graduate student and apparently a good athlete; lots of photos of him participating in track meets. I suspect strongly that he's going to regret making that post if he decides to go into academia.

[JamesB]

Dylan denial of the day:

either way, nobody here has made fun of charles, or the passengers. that wonderful "hahaha box cutters" quote that Mark Roberts and everyone keeps using does not count.

i've got nothing but respect for burlingame, as I'd imagine he was a great guy who got swept up into bad circumstances.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8897

[MarkyX]

Just got this interesting email from an idiot. Unlike the others, it wasn't a threat!


First let me introduce myself,

I’m french, on september 11 2001, as nearly everybody, i thought that 19 hijakers took control of 4 of your planes to crash them into strategic places and that it was, as your gov pretended, an act of terrorism.

When 2002 came with your afghanistan’s war and all bush lies spammed on every international channels so that everyone would make fun of america and americans i started to wonder if the official story was really true, seeing that your governement can’t do anything but lie.

It took me more than 2 years to change my mind because i though at first that the inside job theory is far too conveniant as all the world hate america.

But you can’t deny the huge amount of evidences so i’m now sure ( like nearly half of the world’s population ) that i twas an inside job perpetrated by the most awful lot of terrorists on earth : your gvt.

Polls in every important country shows that america is far more feared for global peace and global order than any other terroristic country.

The only point of this mail is to thank you from the bottom of my heart, you’re criticizing loose change ( which is used to make people aware of something weird and making them looking answers for themselves ) by doing exactly the same thing.

Ok your opinion is biased, as for loose change you’ll say but yours is so much more far fetched and depending on personnal opinion or on emotional issues that people seeing your doc or reading gravy’s rebuttal will questions far more things that the ones who started with LC… so the result is exactly the same, you have no idea how many truthers you woke.

You and gravy are really a huge help for the truth movement, everyday we see new members coming because they saw your debunking and decided to seak answers for themselves, and when they see that the majority of victim’s family from that dreadful day are asking for a new investigation i let you guess which side they choose.

Just one word : keep up the good work, post links to your doc or to gravy’s page everywhere you can, the truth is coming out and when it does you’ll know that you’ve played a part in this ( even if you didn’t intend to ).

My reply


You got me until "I'm French"


:p

[chipmunk stew]

Warm fuzzies from Loose Change Forum:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/6344c8cb359abcf.gif
Evil Loser--that's catchy. Maybe you should make that your custom title.:D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I’m french... It took me more than 2 years to change my mind because i though at first that the inside job theory is far too conveniant as all the world hate america.


I must admit they're getting better, last time around, in 1940, it took them two weeks to surrender to a bunch of jew-hating fascists.

I wonder if Rick Rajter, Eric Hufscmidt and KKKilltown are in the market for some free real estate?

[Kaarjuus]

I must admit they're getting better, last time around, in 1940, it took them two weeks to surrender to a bunch of jew-hating fascists.

That's pretty low. Seriously.

[Hawk one]

I must admit they're getting better, last time around, in 1940, it took them two weeks to surrender to a bunch of jew-hating fascists.

I wonder if Rick Rajter, Eric Hufscmidt and KKKilltown are in the market for some free real estate?
Yes, because well-planned and efficient military tactics that quickly takes control over most of the national infrastructure is just the thing you want to keep up the war against, despite how city wars are messy, messier, and messier than hell.

Oh well, at least they surrendered to a superior military force. More than USA did in 'Nam, eh? ;)

[Belz...]

You got me until "I'm French"

I must admit they're getting better, last time around, in 1940, it took them two weeks to surrender to a bunch of jew-hating fascists.

It seems that, regarding the French, the level of critical thinking on this forum drops to zero.

In your opinion, are ALL french people stupid or just the ones from France ? Is it a genetic problem or does it have some socio-economic roots ?

[60hzxtl]

All the good Frenchmen died in the first world war?

[Regnad Kcin]

As an American, I'm always frustrated and somewhat embarrassed by the French=derogatory-appelation/comment meme. If it were ever funny, it might have some small value. But frankly, it's never more than idiotic.

[Hutch]

I must admit they're getting better, last time around, in 1940, it took them two weeks to surrender to a bunch of jew-hating fascists.

Well, others have whacked you around a bit, let me add a couple of facts to the mix.

Germany invaded 10 May 1941 and France surrendered on 25 June 1941--about seven weeks, not two.

Nearly 90,000 French troops died in those 46 days, and 220,000 were wounded. So someone was doing some fighting...

Over 20,000 French soldiers died in Nazi prison camps.

So I would cut them a bit of slack, I think, SOT.


stats are from answers.com

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well, others have whacked you around a bit, let me add a couple of facts to the mix.

Germany invaded 10 May 1941 and France surrendered on 25 June 1941--about seven weeks, not two.

Nearly 90,000 French troops died in those 46 days, and 220,000 were wounded. So someone was doing some fighting...

Over 20,000 French soldiers died in Nazi prison camps.

So I would cut them a bit of slack, I think, SOT.


stats are from answers.com

Point taken.

I stand humbled and corrected.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Point taken.

I stand humbled and corrected.

And that is what differentiates conspiracy theorists from critical thinkers.

[Hutch]

OK, back to Loose Change....

I thought I had heard about everything, but this one is a new take on it...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8868

It appears that the Minnesota National Guard and Andrews AFB were in on the plot..or maybe they picked up the airplane parts on the cheap in the Carribbean...

Is there no end? I will wait a day before replying because if I did so now..

[T.A.M.]

MarkyX;

I can't post links yet, but here is one that is very annoying of Fetzer giving his top ten why the phone calls are fake...I think you would have fun killing it.

youtube.com/watch?v=9fbP1lvmBY8

(insert the http and www)

[Belz...]

Well, others have whacked you around a bit, let me add a couple of facts to the mix.

Germany invaded 10 May 1941 and France surrendered on 25 June 1941--about seven weeks, not two.

Nearly 90,000 French troops died in those 46 days, and 220,000 were wounded. So someone was doing some fighting...

Over 20,000 French soldiers died in Nazi prison camps.

So I would cut them a bit of slack, I think, SOT.

stats are from answers.com

Also, I do believe the resistance had some role to play, later on.

[T.A.M.]

Ok, I hate to post a pointless message, but I am getting annoyed with not being able to post links, and I think I can after 15 messages, so here is #15

[Hawk one]

Point taken.

I stand humbled and corrected.
I'm also noticing this post, and will as a result lay off any more snide comments in return. OK? ;)

[Hawk one]

And T.A.M., you still have more content in that 15th post than the entire Loose Change video... :D

[Regnad Kcin]

Point taken.

I stand humbled and corrected.Sincere appreciation for your post.

[chipmunk stew]

The British 9/11 Truth Campaign's "Critic's Corner", I'm reluctant to admit, appears to be a pretty effective compromise. The level of debate has taken a much more sober tone (for the most part.) The real zealots tend to avoid it. The mod who created it ("ian neal") is very level-headed and protective of the subforum as an experiment.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=cb757329983b9fa75a8fd29f15fa5f80

[Hutch]

Point taken.

I stand humbled and corrected.

You'll never last long on the Politics Forum with that attitude, kid...;) :D

Seriously, hope you don't feel like we were 'dogpiling' you there, SOT, I guess in dealing daily with Muttons and Sir Phillips and some of the other CT'ers (not too mention reading LC) we just have gotten a bit sensitive to claims these days...

In case there is any doubt, you have my utmost respect. And I think that goes for the rest of the gang here.


:grouphug5

[MarkyX]

MarkyX;

I can't post links yet, but here is one that is very annoying of Fetzer giving his top ten why the phone calls are fake...I think you would have fun killing it.

youtube.com/watch?v=9fbP1lvmBY8

(insert the http and www)

Thanks.

Anyone got some good VISUAL evidence I can use to debunk all ten points?

[kevin]

More info on Dr. Wood. Got her bachelor, masters and doctorate at virginia tech, although specialization is not listed.

http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/Wood.html
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You'll never last long on the Politics Forum with that attitude, kid...;) :D

Seriously, hope you don't feel like we were 'dogpiling' you there, SOT, I guess in dealing daily with Muttons and Sir Phillips and some of the other CT'ers (not too mention reading LC) we just have gotten a bit sensitive to claims these days...

In case there is any doubt, you have my utmost respect. And I think that goes for the rest of the gang here.


:grouphug5

I'm not too worried. :)

I think the responses to my last post show that around here you can get more respect by admitting when you're wrong than with all the fake PhD's held by the associate members of "Scholars for Truth". ;)

Thanks, guys.

[T.A.M.]

MarkyX;

gotta get Paul Scheaffer in their.

Gotta get some TUMS in there. Fetzer belches or grimaces from reflux about every 30 seconds in the video.

[T.A.M.]

If your gonna debunk his top 10, which is easy enough to do (his top 10 is the same old crap we always hear), then here are some things that might help.

(1) The Mcdermott passenger lists from 911myths
(2) The Boston Globe Flight #11 Seating plan
(3) screenshot of BBC article of "still alive" crap
(4) a cartoon of an american flag with eyes and an FBi badge

It is kind of hard to do VISUALLY, because most of the REAL evidence are reports, eye witness testimony, REASONING, and COMMON SENSE.

[MarkyX]

What I do is HIGHLIGHT the visual evidence. I've done a few articles already and just use a light red box over the evidence.

By the way, as of today, I've done twenty minutes of 9/11 Deniers Speak. Most of the end footage was two Jimmy Walter's reviews AND the Loose Change Extra Footage (Isaac and Dylan giving his video to the widow).

I think Gravy would like my use of "The people are really secondaries" quote.

Again, if anyone is interested, I'll pass it along. However, DO NOT pass it around just yet. Screw Loose Change could write first impressions if they want also.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"Public access cable" and "9-11 truth" are two terms that when put together will usually make most people cringe with fear of getting "bukkaked with stupid".

Not this time, however. Ronald Weick posted the following link today on Conspiracy Smashers blog. For an amatuer production, it is very even-handed and fair to both sides of the debate. The truther presents his side and the responses are given calmly and without judgement. Both participants keep thier cool and remain civil throughout.

Mostly it's stuff we've all heard before, but it's still good.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4732132614662229339

[Apollyon]

More info on Dr. Wood. Got her bachelor, masters and doctorate at virginia tech, although specialization is not listed.

http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/Wood.html
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
w00t! She's a Hokie.

How appropriate. ;)

[Gravy]

I made a new thread on my video idea. And I updated the intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBT0lC77ayA
Much better. A few comments:
–Avery's quote is "Laugh in their face."
–I still think the speakers should be introduced first, before any audio. It's important to know that it's Avery speaking and that he's the creator of "Loose Change." (See next point.)
–"Dedicated to the lives we lost..." should be identified as the opening to "Loose Change."

[Blackadder_no]

Germany invaded 10 May 1941 and France surrendered on 25 June 1941--about seven weeks, not two.

Uh, that would be 1940, not 1941 on both dates.

Sorry, had to nitpick ;)

[Gravy]

"Public access cable" and "9-11 truth" are two terms that when put together will usually make most people cringe with fear of getting "bukkaked with stupid".

Not this time, however. Ronald Weick posted the following link today on Conspiracy Smashers blog. For an amatuer production, it is very even-handed and fair to both sides of the debate. The truther presents his side and the responses are given calmly and without judgement. Both participants keep thier cool and remain civil throughout.

Mostly it's stuff we've all heard before, but it's still good.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4732132614662229339
That's the show I was supposed to be on, but apparently Les doesn't "do" televised debates. Funny, because just a few days before he suggested that he and I have a debate. (That was before I tore him to shreds on every 9/11 topic he brought up at Ground Zero.) If anyone wants to see that happening live, come on down to GZ Saturday at 1 pm. and watch Les accuse the NYFD of being "In on it." Is there something about the name Les that makes a person hate the FDNY?

[Blackadder_no]

Thanks.

Anyone got some good VISUAL evidence I can use to debunk all ten points?

For the cell phone claim, show a picture of an Airfone, along with an advertisement for it (United Airlines has a page about their Airfones).

Also, there's a page at ieee.org with the phrase: "Surprisingly, tests have shown that mobile phones actually work very well in the air."

Would love to post links, but still a number of posts short.

[T.A.M.]

MarkyX

You need to go for the jugular man. You've gotta lot of good stuff in there man, but if you wan't to really get to mainstream america, and reveal the truthers for wwhat they are, then use lines like this:

Fade Up:

America, there are people amongst you...

Fade out:

Fade in:

People who claim to be seeking the truth...

Fade out:

Fade in:

But the truth they seek is a mockery to those who died when tragedy struck

Fade out, as screams from the 9/11 crash observers are heard.

Fade out that audio, then fade in the Avery comments...

Just some thoughts...

[T.A.M.]

It would be great to haev a big bloated still of Fetzer with his grimace on, and then play some of his most outlandish, hateful audio underneath, and the same for Alex Jones...

[T.A.M.]

Here is a good link to grab some audio

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8926416/

It is the 9/11 tapes....

[tacodaemon]

As has also been mentioned, flight attendants will tell you how often they have to deal with passengers' cellphones going off midflight. Marky, maybe you should go to this flight attendants' webforum (http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/Cat/0) and ask for their opinions on the subject... then you can screenshot some replies and stick them into your video.

[MarkyX]

As has also been mentioned, flight attendants will tell you how often they have to deal with passengers' cellphones going off midflight. Marky, maybe you should go to this flight attendants' webforum (http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/Cat/0) and ask for their opinions on the subject... then you can screenshot some replies and stick them into your video.

Eek, that's really questionable tactics right there. They can say I faked it or laugh at the idea that I am using a message board as my source.

[MarkyX]

It would be great to haev a big bloated still of Fetzer with his grimace on, and then play some of his most outlandish, hateful audio underneath, and the same for Alex Jones...

Got links and the timemark? I can't listen to endless hours of audio just so I can catch a a few minutes of dialog.

[T.A.M.]

I am listening to hours of the 911 LA conference now. I am also going to record the "Good Bits" as I find them. I'll let you know.

[T.A.M.]

so much bulls&*t, so little time. I'll listen to more over the weekend. Given how much crap he says, I am sure to be able to pull enough out for a great video...lol

[Hutch]

Uh, that would be 1940, not 1941 on both dates.

Sorry, had to nitpick ;)

:covereyes :boxedin:

Nit away. I always get 1940 and 1941 mixed up.

Press on.

[gumboot]

OK, back to Loose Change....

I thought I had heard about everything, but this one is a new take on it...




Ugh.... bukkaked by stupid should be our new catch phrase...



the national groundstop didnt occur til 9:26, so its conceivable for the flight to still take off before the order got filtered to the base.

Wrong. The National Ground-stop was ordered by Mineta, Secretary of Transport, at 0945. The FAA implemented a few of their own restrictions at 0926.



our valiant c-130 pilots got in their flight gear at andrews and scrambled their C130... propeller driven.. cargo craft.... slowly.. into the sky. it lumbered along like a sailboat in a harbor.....

First. They weren't "scrambled". AA77 wasn't picked up by Dulles until 0932. The C-130 took off at 0925. They were already airbourne.

Second, they've ovbiously not spent much time around C-130's. I have. For about 5 years I lived on RNZAF Base Auckland, which includes 40 Squadron - flying C-130H's. Those things can move. In the Persian Gulf War a C-130H did a barrel role to avoid being hit by a SAM.



Did you know that DC-St Paul takes you RIGHT OVER SHANKSVILLE? at least close enough to see the smoke plume, identify it as crash site, meaning 5-10 miles.

Of course that couldn't POSSIBLY be the reason the C-130 ended up over both crash sites, could it? There must be something sneaky going on.

Why is it that they think evidence supporting a PERFECTLY LOGICAL explanation is somehow further evidence of conspiracy?


Just look at it this way, what are the odds that a C-130 was able to get into the air from Andrews AFB before any jetfighters or attack helicopters AND it witness TWO of the 9/11 crashes?

First let's take a look at Andrews AFB. What combat units are there?

Well, there's two:

121st Fighter Squadron of the 113th Fighter Wing, District of Columbia Air National Guard

and

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321 (VMFA-321), Marine Air Guard

So, no attack helicopters, for starters.

So, truely, how did a C-130H get airbourne before squadrons of F-16 fighters and F/A-18 fighters?

Simple. The C-130H took off at 0925, before there was a threat to Washington DC.

The two reserve squadrons were not on duty, however the pilots of those squadrons, on their own initiative, left their regular day jobs, went to the air base, and loaded up their fighters ONCE THEY KNEW ABOUT A THREAT.


At the least, the fact that a C-130, (again max airspeed 345 flying downhill) was able to intercept not ONE but ALMOST TWO of the errant commercial jets that day should prompt a review of the air defense intercept system: forget the F-16s, Rummy. Just scramble the hercules -- just ONE hercules got in front ONE hijacked jets, NEARLY caugtht the other, and that's on a "routine flight home back to Waffle House".


That would be maximum airspeed 379 MPH... and it didn't intercept either aircraft... it was asked to "look around for" AA77. The aircraft happened to by nearby, as as the pilot's testimony indicates, they weren't able to maintain position with AA77 right up to the crash - AA77 pulled ahead because it's faster.

As for UA93 - they arrived AFTER the crash. Not much of an intercept... I mean look at it: speed of interceptor: 336 MPH (cruise). speed of target: 0 MPH (crashed).

-Andrew

[gumboot]

:covereyes :boxedin:

Nit away. I always get 1940 and 1941 mixed up.

Press on.


Understandable. They're like... right next to each other... :p

-Andrew

[Kent1]

For the cell phone claim, show a picture of an Airfone, along with an advertisement for it (United Airlines has a page about their Airfones).

Also, there's a page at ieee.org with the phrase: "Surprisingly, tests have shown that mobile phones actually work very well in the air."

Would love to post links, but still a number of posts short.

I have a scanned page, from the AA magazine on In-flight satellite calls.
It talks about credit card instructions and how to make collect calls.
If you want a copy PM me.

Another video I would love to see again is the interviews with the Al-Shehri hijacker family members from Dateline NBC on Sep 25th 2002. What makes it especially interesting is that many CT'ers seem to believe that the brothers are still alive.

[kevin]

Uh, that would be 1940, not 1941 on both dates.

Sorry, had to nitpick ;)

Doesn't matter. World War II never happened. Countries could not collapse faster than free fall!

[kevin]

I have a scanned page, from the AA magazine on In-flight satellite calls.
It talks about credit card instructions and how to make collect calls.
If you want a copy PM me.

Another video I would love to see again is the interviews with the Al-Shehri hijacker family members from Dateline NBC on Sep 25th 2002.

Anybody been on a plane when someone, who left their phone on, rang? I've left mine on a couple of times but nobody ever called me (no one ever calls me, sniff, sniff.)

[Kent1]

Double post..

[Kent1]

Anybody been on a plane when someone, who left their phone on, rang? I've left mine on a couple of times but nobody ever called me (no one ever calls me, sniff, sniff.)
A lot of it depends on the type of phone and area. Interestingly enough older cell phones work better, and can work above 35,000 feet

http://www.slate.com/id/1008297/

I should add Mike has a great page on this
http://www.911myths.com/html/mobiles_at_altitude.html

[kevin]

Wrong. The National Ground-stop was ordered by Mineta, Secretary of Transport, at 0945. The FAA implemented a few of their own restrictions at 0926.


I think American Airlines instituted a grounding of it's own planes earlier than the official stop. I remember reading that in one of the reports. Probably the FEMA one.

Man for some reason the whole day just flooded back on me. I flew on the 10th, one day trip there and back to Denver for a meeting. I had the 11th off to get my house appraised so I slept in. When I woke up I heard NPR talking about an explosion at a building and I thought they were doing a retrospective on Oklahoma City. Then they mentioned the world trade center and I thought they were doing a retrospective on the 1993 wtc bombing. I think it took me 10 minutes of half-asleep listening to realize it was a new situation.

I had 2 brothers in New York and checked with my father if he'd heard from them (no, but later both checked in -- one those brothers also owns a house in New Orleans that didn't get flooded. Pretty damn lucky guy!)

I flew again on the 17th (same damn meeting). First time I ever made it to the airport a full 2 hours before take off (took me 10-15 minutes to get through security, 9 minutes longer than the week before). I flew United I think there were 4 of us on the plane. I think one of the attendants knew some of the attendants on the United flight.

[gumboot]

I think American Airlines instituted a grounding of it's own planes earlier than the official stop. I remember reading that in one of the reports. Probably the FEMA one.


Yup, there were gradual restrictions - starting, IIRC, with Newark and Logan Airports (where UA175, UA93 and AA11 took off from).

-Andrew

[JamesB]

Ugh.... bukkaked by stupid should be our new catch phrase...




Wrong. The National Ground-stop was ordered by Mineta, Secretary of Transport, at 0945. The FAA implemented a few of their own restrictions at 0926.




First. They weren't "scrambled". AA77 wasn't picked up by Dulles until 0932. The C-130 took off at 0925. They were already airbourne.

Second, they've ovbiously not spent much time around C-130's. I have. For about 5 years I lived on RNZAF Base Auckland, which includes 40 Squadron - flying C-130H's. Those things can move. In the Persian Gulf War a C-130H did a barrel role to avoid being hit by a SAM.




Of course that couldn't POSSIBLY be the reason the C-130 ended up over both crash sites, could it? There must be something sneaky going on.

Why is it that they think evidence supporting a PERFECTLY LOGICAL explanation is somehow further evidence of conspiracy?




First let's take a look at Andrews AFB. What combat units are there?

Well, there's two:

121st Fighter Squadron of the 113th Fighter Wing, District of Columbia Air National Guard

and

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321 (VMFA-321), Marine Air Guard

So, no attack helicopters, for starters.

So, truely, how did a C-130H get airbourne before squadrons of F-16 fighters and F/A-18 fighters?

Simple. The C-130H took off at 0925, before there was a threat to Washington DC.

The two reserve squadrons were not on duty, however the pilots of those squadrons, on their own initiative, left their regular day jobs, went to the air base, and loaded up their fighters ONCE THEY KNEW ABOUT A THREAT.





That would be maximum airspeed 379 MPH... and it didn't intercept either aircraft... it was asked to "look around for" AA77. The aircraft happened to by nearby, as as the pilot's testimony indicates, they weren't able to maintain position with AA77 right up to the crash - AA77 pulled ahead because it's faster.

As for UA93 - they arrived AFTER the crash. Not much of an intercept... I mean look at it: speed of interceptor: 336 MPH (cruise). speed of target: 0 MPH (crashed).

-Andrew

What the hell would you do with an attack helicoptor? Strafe the Pentagon?