Loose Change - Part III

[MarkyX]

so much bulls&*t, so little time. I'll listen to more over the weekend. Given how much crap he says, I am sure to be able to pull enough out for a great video...lol

As long as it doesn't repeat itself or the same myths. I'm looking for pure jackass behavior here, not ignorant statements. Jackass behavior involving ignorant statements do work though (like the Dubai myth, ha)

Like...a certain professor saying "All engineers are going to hell"

[Cylinder]

Yup, there were gradual restrictions - starting, IIRC, with Newark and Logan Airports (where UA175, UA93 and AA11 took off from).

Boston and New York Centers (FAA ATC control centers) declared ATC-Zero starting around 0905:

Boston Center immediately advised the New England Region that it was going to stop all departures at airports under its control. At 9:05, Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." At the same time, NewYork Center declared "ATC zero"-meaning that aircraft were not permitted to depart from, arrive at, or travel through New York Center's airspace until further notice.132

FAA HQ ordered a nation-wide ground stop at 0925. No more commercial flights would be cleared for takeoff anywhere in the US:

By 9:25, FAA's Herndon Command Center and FAA headquarters knew two aircraft had crashed into the World Trade Center. They knew American 77 was lost. At least some FAA officials in Boston Center and the New England Region knew that a hijacker on board American 11 had said "we have some planes." Concerns over the safety of other aircraft began to mount. A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one at 9:25.145

Ben Sniley, FAA's National Operations Manager, ordered all ATC Centers to route all civil aviation to the nearest available airport around 0945:

At 9:42, the Command Center learned from news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon. The Command Center's national operations manager, Ben Sliney, ordered all FAA facilities to instruct all aircraft to land at the nearest airport. This was an unprecedented order. The air traffic control system handled it with great skill, as about 4,500 commercial and general aviation aircraft soon landed without incident.165

Sept. 11, 2001 was Sniley's first day on the job as operations manager - talk about having enough grapes for a job.

[kevin]

Do any of the CTers have a theory why the Pentagon? The capital building isn't that much further on (2 miles I think I measured it) and if your really want to get the people up in arms crash a plane into the capital buildings dome.

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.

[60hzxtl]

Once again, under the heading of IF:

Fighters arrive, fighters intercept.

Want to give the order to pull the trigger?

Sure of your shot, but are you certain of the situation?

What goes up, must come down. Over - Englewood? Flushing? Bed- Sty? Chelsea? Where is the plane, or what's left of it going to come down.

Think the CTer's are crazed now?

Imagine if a shoot down occurred. They'd be barking at the moon even louder, on more days of the week.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Do any of the CTers have a theory why the Pentagon? The capital building isn't that much further on (2 miles I think I measured it) and if your really want to get the people up in arms crash a plane into the capital buildings dome.

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.

The Capitol Building or the White House have been suggested as United 93's possible target. Fortunately, Todd beamer and his band of heroes took care of that for us.

[kevin]

The Capitol Building or the White House have been suggested as United 93's possible target. Fortunately, Todd beamer and his band of heroes took care of that for us.

Yeah, but the CTers claim that guy never existed (or wasn't on the plane or some crap). If this was a gov't run operation the pentagon would be a terrible target. Heck, some of the old hard core vietnam protesters probably thought it was a good idea.

Same for the idea that the pilot thought he was going to be shot down so changed to the closer target. If this was a military operation he'd know he wouldn't be shot at until too late. Same if they weren't planes. Capital building is a better target....

I'm guessing they say the Pentagon was picked to "divert" suspicion away from the military.

[gumboot]

FAA HQ ordered a nation-wide ground stop at 0925. No more commercial flights would be cleared for takeoff anywhere in the US:


As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

That wasn't put into effect into 0945, by Mineta.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.


That's part of their argument...they purposefully hit the only reinforced section of the Pentagon which was empty except for some construction workers (which isn't actually true, but never mind).

What they haven't explained is how the same government are so concerned about minimising casualties at Washington DC, yet so eager to cause death at NYC (CD, WTC7, WTC6 etc...)

-Andrew

[gumboot]

What the hell would you do with an attack helicoptor? Strafe the Pentagon?


I suppose the Weapons Officer could shoot down the airliner with his 30mm chain gun. That's of course after the pilot deployed the super-secret turbo rockets that enabled the helicopter to catch up to the airliner...

Incidentally, that reminds me of another thing.

In their calculations the Loosers repeatedly remove the range of either Sidewinder or Sparrow AAMs for working out if the fighters were really "in range".

As I understand it, they don't shoot down errant airliners with missiles, theoretical or practical.

It's fine when every other aircraft in the area is either a friendly with IFF (Indicator: Friend-or-Foe) or an enemy (and even then you get friendly fire incidents). But this is a civilian airspace filled with civilian aircraft that don't have IFF at all.

They have to have visual confirmation, and they use cannon. Which means A) Getting in close to do a routine visual inspection of the aircraft at as close as a few hundred feet
B) Dropping back to gun range of no more than 2000ft (0.38 miles).

All this, of course, eats up precious time. The CTers imagine a Top Gun scene:

This is Whiskey 6, we have Tangos One, bearing three niner, angels 8. I have a lock, Fox One! Tango down!

-Andrew

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I suppose the Weapons Officer could shoot down the airliner with his 30mm chain gun. That's of course after the pilot deployed the super-secret turbo rockets that enabled the helicopter to catch up to the airliner...

The Apache is capable of mounting FIM-92 Stinger or, according to some sources, AIM-9L Sidewinder AAMs.

In my personal experience (forgive me for borrowing Chicken Coop Arsonists video games = real life arguments) as a desktop chopper jock in Microproses "GUNSHIP" and Janes "Longbow" games; the 30 mm chain gun on the Apache is frankly a piss-poor weapon for shooting down any other aircraft that isn't another chopper.

Either way, anyone who sends an attack chopper after a civillian airliner (or a military aircraft based on an airliner) is basically wasting fuel and ground crew man-hours.

[SRW]

For the cell phone claim, show a picture of an Airfone, along with an advertisement for it (United Airlines has a page about their Airfones).

Also, there's a page at ieee.org with the phrase: "Surprisingly, tests have shown that mobile phones actually work very well in the air."

Would love to post links, but still a number of posts short.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=675091

Problem here is these phones where analog Phones in 2001 were mostly Digital or hybrid (digital/analogue).

[Cylinder]

As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

Actually, ground stops do not affect aircraft en route. The media does misuse the term a bit. In a ground stop, nothing is allowed to depart. It's used quite a bit on individual airfields in situations like unsafe field conditions or emergency traffic. Here's a definition from Pilot's Web (http://www.pilotsweb.com/pcg/pcg_g.htm):

GROUND STOP- Normally, the last initiative to be utilized; this method mandates that the terminal facility will not allow any departures to enter the ARTCC airspace until further notified.

A nation-wide ground stop was initiated by Herdon at 0925. The order issued at 0945 was to divert all civil aviation to the nearest practicable airfield -which was already under ground stop orders.

[gumboot]

In my personal experience (forgive me for borrowing Chicken Coop Arsonists video games = real life arguments) as a desktop chopper jock in Microproses "GUNSHIP" and Janes "Longbow" games; the 30 mm chain gun on the Apache is frankly a piss-poor weapon for shooting down any other aircraft that isn't another chopper.


Well, I think the reality of a helicopter (max speed 158kt (Apache) 170kt (SuperCobra)) shooting down an airliner (cruise speed 530kt (757) 470kt (767)) is pretty stupid fullstop, but you wouldn't shoot down an airliner with an air-to-air missile.

It's all irrelevant anyway as the only attack helicopter unit based near Washington DC appears to be a US Army reserve unit at New York.

-Andrew

[Brainster]

That's part of their argument...they purposefully hit the only reinforced section of the Pentagon which was empty except for some construction workers (which isn't actually true, but never mind).

What they haven't explained is how the same government are so concerned about minimising casualties at Washington DC, yet so eager to cause death at NYC (CD, WTC7, WTC6 etc...)

-Andrew

They play the maximize/minimize game all the time, depending on what event they are trying to explain. Small loads on the planes is minimize. Announcement in the South Tower to go back to your desk is maximize. Controlled demolition is minimize (since it resulted in "fewer" deaths to people in other buildings). I think if we looked hard enough we'd find somebody who simultaneously claimed that the strike on the North Tower was timed to minimize casualties while the strike on the South Tower was intended to maximize them. It did not work out that way, but the logic of the CT enthusiast does not require actual real-world confirmation.

[gumboot]

A nation-wide ground stop was initiated by Herdon at 0925. The order issued at 0945 was to divert all civil aviation to the nearest practicable airfield -which was already under ground stop orders.


Thanks for the clarification, although I believe the precise time of the ground stop was 0926. ;)

That would make the significance of Mineta's order probably a lot greater. A nation-wide ground stop is one thing. Banning ALL air traffic full stop (it wasn't just civil aviation either - law enforcement, medical, and military flights (excluding the CAPs) were only permitted later in the day).

Point being the C-130 in question was airborne when the ground stop was initiated (and does that 0925/6 order extend to all craft, or just civil aviation?).

-Andrew

[gumboot]

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=675091

Problem here is these phones where analog Phones in 2001 were mostly Digital or hybrid (digital/analogue).


Don't forget over time mobile phones have tended to have smaller output power. :) Cancer and all that. If you go back far enough, the old Oki brief-case phones used by loggers in New Zealand in the 70's had to reach one of only a few transmitters which existed in the country, so they had a range of a good couple of hundred miles.

(It is also said you could fry an egg on the case of them while they were running... :p)

-Andrew

[SRW]

As long as it doesn't repeat itself or the same myths. I'm looking for pure jackass behavior here, not ignorant statements. Jackass behavior involving ignorant statements do work though (like the Dubai myth, ha)

Like...a certain professor saying "All engineers are going to hell"

I was looking for a Quote from Todd beamer's mother, to show her talking about the conversation with her son. anyway I ran across this site. It looks like and motherload of public domain vidio, I have not looked at much but I bet there are things you can use. Happy hunting.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=flight%2093%20AND%20mediatype%3Am ovies

[Mancman]

Interesting short video about the South Tower core section that resisted the collapse: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1615521411849861778&q=wtc+collapse

[WildCat]

As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

That wasn't put into effect into 0945, by Mineta.

-Andrew
Not military. I remember well about an ahour after it was announced that all remaining planes had landed when all of a sudden I heard jet noise, very loud and very low, going from south to north - direcly towards downtown Chicago. It was the one moment on that day where I felt terror, everyone on the street (I was in the Hyde Park neighborhood) looked up nervously. Turned out to be a pair of Illinois National Guard F-16's, flying along the lakefront. What a relief!

[Gravy]

Interesting short video about the South Tower core section that resisted the collapse: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1615521411849861778&q=wtc+collapse
Yes, that's a good clip, although the video quality isn't great. It's from the 2002 NOVA program "Why the Towers Fell." There are some decent still photos of that core section out there, but the angle of the video is better. So we've seen VERY tall portions of the cores of both towers standing briefly (several seconds in the case of the north tower) after most of the buildings collapsed around them.

[Hutch]

Quick note on the Apache (I don't fly them but lets just say I have some knowledge)

The US Army once looked to using Stingers, but decided against it and the Apache is not electronically configured for air-to-air.

The 30MM is for ground effect against light armored vehicles. If you were very close to the target and it was basically not moving relative to you, or only at a difference of 30kts or so (the speed of a tank or armored vehicle) you might concieveably use it as a weapon against a plane, but it was never designed to do that.

A Hellfire missile would be the only other weapon an Apache could use, it is laser-guided, but relative to other missiles it is fairly short-range and slow, it's job is blowing up tanks within 10km--and a jet moving at over 12km a minute would be out of range before the missile could reach it.

Plus an Apache is not the quietest platform; you do notice when they are in the area.

[Hutch]

Posted a reply, borrowing liberally from you guys. We'll see if jydolam returns to defend his concept.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8868&st=0&#entry6360883

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The Apache may not be a quiet platform, but it is dead sexy.

[Hutch]

The Apache may not be a quiet platform, but it is dead sexy.

Well, I tend to find women sexy, myself...:p

But yes, if I am in a tank and know there is a LONGBOW within 10 klicks (especially if it is fairly hilly), I'm either vacating the area or making out my will.

Trouble is that today there is no major Soviet Tank army planning to invade Germany (which is what it was built to fight) and it is being used (by the US and Israel) in ground combat situations that may expose it to more risk than intended. (Damm Commies screwed it up!).

Still, unless protected by a screen of ground-to-air missiles, 16 tanks vs 1 Apache LONGBOW= 16 dead tanks.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well, I think the reality of a helicopter (max speed 158kt (Apache) 170kt (SuperCobra)) shooting down an airliner (cruise speed 530kt (757) 470kt (767)) is pretty stupid fullstop, but you wouldn't shoot down an airliner with an air-to-air missile.

Korean Airlines flight 007 (a Boeing 747) was shot down by a missle from either a soviet SU-15 Flagon or a Mig-23 Flogger in 1983 when it drifted off course into soviet airspace.

The incident, unsuprisingly, generated a slew of it's own conspiracy theories mostly about the CIA sabotaging civilian airliners navigation equipment so that they would drift into soviet airspace so they could test soviet responses without the political risks of using actual US military aircraft to deliberately violate soviet airspace.

[CurtC]

Don't forget over time mobile phones have tended to have smaller output power. :) Cancer and all that.
Yes, they now have lower output power, but not really because of cancer. It's just not plausible that RF waves could cause cancer - they don't ionize molecules, but they can add a small amount of heat to tissue. If it's heating your head up that you're worried about, holding your hand and the phone next to it conducts a lot more heat than the RF transfers anyway.

The real reason they want to use lower power is for longer battery life.

[Brainster]

I was looking for a Quote from Todd beamer's mother, to show her talking about the conversation with her son. anyway I ran across this site. It looks like and motherload of public domain vidio, I have not looked at much but I bet there are things you can use. Happy hunting.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=flight%2093%20AND%20mediatype%3Am ovies

I'll check that out. Just to clarify, Mark Bingham was the one talking to his mother, not Todd Beamer.

[Belz...]

Yes, that's a good clip, although the video quality isn't great. It's from the 2002 NOVA program "Why the Towers Fell." There are some decent still photos of that core section out there, but the angle of the video is better. So we've seen VERY tall portions of the cores of both towers standing briefly (several seconds in the case of the north tower) after most of the buildings collapsed around them.

And yet no concrete...

[SRW]

I'll check that out. Just to clarify, Mark Bingham was the one talking to his mother, not Todd Beamer.

Yep your right, thats why I should not do research past my bed time.

[Joytown]

Greetings all -

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster here. I have been reading a lot of these 9/11 threads and have been slowly gathering evidence and information about a lot of the claims that are made by the Truth Movement. Hopefully I can contribute in some small way to keep the honest and open discourse running about this issue.

Up until yesterday I really had been quite happy to read, do research, and not post about my observations. I know several people who beleive the Inside Job 'theory' and have come here to get information to support my own point of view. I feel fortunate that so much hard work and research has been done by the folks here. And this is what prompted my first post, which is, in essence, a "keep up the good work" screed.

An article in yesterday's L.A. Times made me realize what's at stake here. The article was on the new 9-11 movie, World Trade Center that is coming out very soon. The discussion wasn't about the content of the move per se, but more on how it is being marketed. The crux of the article is that 9-11 is a very strong "defining moment" in young peoples' lives.

These very people are the ones who can so easily be swayed by a slick production like LC. It think it's of vital importance to protect the legacy of 9-11 and not let it be hijacked by absurd and unfounded "made up stuff posing as questions"

So .. keep up the good work! and thanks!

You can read the full text of the article here (you'll need to remung the address) :

latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-fi-wtc27jul27,1,5176414.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

But here are a couple of quotes: "... when Paramount Pictures executives first screened director-producer Oliver Stone's upcoming release, "World Trade Center," for a test audience last month, they realized there was nothing typical about selling a movie about 9/11. Teens who were just children when the Twin Towers fell said in a focus group attended by Paramount marketing staffers that the movie strongly resonated with them because the events it portrayed occurred during their lifetimes."

""Every generation has a defining moment," says the voice-over of a 30-second TV spot aimed at the under-25 crowd that began airing this week. The melodic "Fix You" by rock group Coldplay plays as the screen goes black and three words appear in stark white letters: "This Was Ours.""

"According to industry tracking numbers reported Wednesday, as Paramount's media campaign was just getting rolling, 40% of teen girls and women in their 20s who were aware of the movie said they had "definite interest" in seeing it. Teen boys were close behind, with 37% reporting definite interest."

-joytown

[Joytown]

Posted a reply, borrowing liberally from you guys. We'll see if jydolam returns to defend his concept.



BTW - note on the "they planted the evidence" line of Truther reasoning (either via a C-130 or CIA on the lawn):

I'm sure you've all the seen the parking lot cam shots here: youtube.com/watch?v=L75Gga92WO8

and here:

youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8&mode=related&search=

Both these videos continue to run for a considerable time after the impacts. Do you know what we DON'T see? We don't see a plane dropping 757 parts. We don't see CIA spooks running on the lawn to plant shredded AA airframe bits!

And then there's Bob Pugh. digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/pentagon.htm He began filming approximately 15 minutes after impact. None of his videos show nor does his commentary mention any mysterious "evidence planting teams" either!

(demung addresses as needed)

Just my .02!

-joytown

[Pardalis]

BTW - note on the "they planted the evidence" line of Truther reasoning (either via a C-130 or CIA on the lawn):

I'm sure you've all the seen the parking lot cam shots here: youtube.com/watch?v=L75Gga92WO8

and here:

youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8&mode=related&search=

Both these videos continue to run for a considerable time after the impacts. Do you know what we DON'T see? We don't see a plane dropping 757 parts. We don't see CIA spooks running on the lawn to plant shredded AA airframe bits!

And then there's Bob Pugh. digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/pentagon.htm He began filming approximately 15 minutes after impact. None of his videos show nor does his commentary mention any mysterious "evidence planting teams" either!

(demung addresses as needed)

Just my .02!

-joytown

Hi Joytown, welcome!

That's a brilliant observation. :D

[60hzxtl]

Welcome Joytown,

And please put scare quotes around "truth movment", woodja?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Someone remind me who it was that first predicted violence from unbalanced truthers in this insanely mammoth thread?

Whoever it was, call Mr. Randi to pick up your prize.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/24/MN115878.DTL

(Shamelessly stolen from Pepik posting over at Conspiracy Smashers blog)

[Brainster]

Welcome Joytown,

And please put scare quotes around "truth movment", woodja?

I'm going with 9-11 Denial Movement.

No need for scare quotes.:D

[Pardalis]

Someone remind me who it was that first predicted violence from unbalanced truthers in this insanely mammoth thread?

Whoever it was, call Mr. Randi to pick up your prize.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/24/MN115878.DTL

(Shamelessly stolen from Pepik posting over at Conspiracy Smashers blog)

Was it me? :eek:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1635501&postcount=3723

[MarkyX]

I told you that these nuts are violent angry people.

I would watch yourself on Ground Zero Gravy.

[Pardalis]

Of all the conspiracy theories we've heard so far, I still haven't heard "spontaneous combustion" mentionned.

Think about it...

[kevin]

Yes, they now have lower output power, but not really because of cancer. It's just not plausible that RF waves could cause cancer - they don't ionize molecules, but they can add a small amount of heat to tissue. If it's heating your head up that you're worried about, holding your hand and the phone next to it conducts a lot more heat than the RF transfers anyway.

yeah whatever, i still don't carry mine in my pants pocket anymore.

[MarkyX]

Deleted

[MarkyX]

Deleted

[T.A.M.]

Gravy, if you are going to GZ you've gotta take a camera and film those idiots harrassing mourners. Then you can post it, or give it to someone like MarkyX to add to a cideo to show the resto f the world just what these freaks are all about.

[T.A.M.]

video I meant to say (damn keyboard)

[Johnny Pixels]

I've lost track of this thread a bit now, but has anyone noticed that the CTs are making lists of people that support their position, not unlike the creation science lists of people who oppose evolution.

Are there stages involved in woo development?

1. The First Hurdle - Woo fails to understand science
2. Just Asking Questions - Woo looks for evidence to back up their mistake
3. The Articles - Woo starts producing articles based on bad science to support their position
4. The List - Woo starts looking for people with qualifications that agree with them
5. The School Board - Woo tries to force their opinion on kids, because grown ups won't listen to them.

[MarkyX]

Anyone have a video of Mark Bingham's mother talking about her son calling?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I've lost track of this thread a bit now, but has anyone noticed that the CTs are making lists of people that support their position, not unlike the creation science lists of people who oppose evolution.

Are there stages involved in woo development?

1. The First Hurdle - Woo fails to understand science
2. Just Asking Questions - Woo looks for evidence to back up their mistake
3. The Articles - Woo starts producing articles based on bad science to support their position
4. The List - Woo starts looking for people with qualifications that agree with them
5. The School Board - Woo tries to force their opinion on kids, because grown ups won't listen to them.

Does Kevin Barrett qualify as step 5? He's teaching it rather than trying to force a school board to include it in the curriculum.

[T.A.M.]

MarkyX

I don't have what your looking for, but I just listened to an interview with the Flight 93 Coriner, Wallace Miller, where he states that the biggest piece of debris he saw was an engine part that weighed about a thousand pounds. Seems like a pretty big peice for a site where the CTers say only small fragments were found.

http://www.archive.org/details/interview-miller

[MarkyX]

No no no no, it has to be Mark Bingham.

It's a perfect setup to make Fetzer and his deniers look like complete jackasses.

[Blackwell]

I was reading an article on espn.com (about vintage car racing) and came across this unexpected first-hand account of the attack on the Pentagon. Some reference to molten aluminum and aircraft parts, as well as the common reference to "explosive" sounds:

A retired Air Force SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance officer, [Blair] Bozek was also a weapons system officer in the F-4 Phantom stationed in Iceland, where "we used to chase the Russians out of our airspace during the Cold War."

Bozek trained German top gun pilots in California and routinely flew on the Blackbird at Mach 3 (2,200 mph) at 80,000 feet above the earth, where sky meets space. "It's dark up there; you can see the curve of the Earth, gorgeous dark, dark blue to light blue from the zenith down to the horizon."

On Sept. 11, 2001, Bozek was at work in his office at the Pentagon, his brother in an office three floors above. "When the plane hit, my office ceiling and walls collapsed around me. It was like explosive dominoes … boom … boom … boom … boom as the aircraft penetrated the various walls of concrete in the building."

The impact point was 500 feet from his office. The path of destruction came to within 90 feet. "Pieces of the aircraft were in my office -- molten aluminum and burning insulation."

Running down the outside of the Pentagon, he pulled three women out of their burning first-floor offices before becoming overcome with smoke. Hours later, he found his brother, also alive.

The above quoted section was the only 9/11 reference, but the full article can be found here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=barone/060727&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos3

[SRW]

No no no no, it has to be Mark Bingham.

It's a perfect setup to make Fetzer and his deniers look like complete

jackasses.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/multimedia.rescue.html

The interview with Marks Mother is here.

and here

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/10/18/mh.wtc.gay.hero.wtaj.med.html

[MarkyX]

That's really nice, but I need one with his mother describing the phone calls. It's a must.

I will add that one though. Really hurt em.

[Brainster]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/multimedia.rescue.html

The interview with Marks Mother is here.

and here

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/10/18/mh.wtc.gay.hero.wtaj.med.html

She was also interviewed in the Discovery Channel show (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/flight/videogallery/psa.html), "The Flight that Fought Back" In the preview, there's a brief clip of his mom, apparently calling back on his voice mail, telling him to go ahead and try to take over the aircraft, that the terrorists were intent on crashing the plane. It's brief, but an amazing clip.

[T.A.M.]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/multimedia.day.html

If you scroll down, the interview with mark's face on it has both his mother and aunt interviewed, recalling what his words were.

if you cant see it, just goto "Day of terror" section, then scroll down.

[Gravy]

Someone remind me who it was that first predicted violence from unbalanced truthers in this insanely mammoth thread?

Whoever it was, call Mr. Randi to pick up your prize.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/24/MN115878.DTL

(Shamelessly stolen from Pepik posting over at Conspiracy Smashers blog)
:jaw-dropp
JREF Tired Commando Ninja?

[Gravy]

I told you that these nuts are violent angry people.

I would watch yourself on Ground Zero Gravy.
Thanks for your concern, but no worries there. Aside from their ignorance, that bunch is perfectly harmless. They're more like a faulty flourescent fixture: noisy but dim.

[MarkyX]

Perfect

Now I need to find out how to save it as a full video file. 911myths.com methods aren't working.

The scene I had in mind is going to make Fetzer and the Truth movement look like complete jackasses and a little more.

I am pretty much done with Dylan and Fitzer. Any interviews of other 9/11 deniers showing how callious or vile they are?

[kevin]

Perfect

Now I need to find out how to save it as a full video file. 911myths.com methods aren't working.

The scene I had in mind is going to make Fetzer and the Truth movement look like complete jackasses

i might be able to get it for you at home. I have quicktime pro on my mac and I think it will let me save a copy. I won't be home for a few more hours though so if you get it another way just post here and I won't bother.

what format you want it in? I can convert it to just about anything.

[MarkyX]

Anything windows media can know.

But I can't wait a few hours, unless someone right now has new material for me to work with so I can ignore this dilemma later.

The video is going to be around 25 minutes but it only has dylan avery and jim fizter. Must...get more!

I would like to tear Alex Jones a new one.

[kevin]

Anything windows media can know.

But I can't wait a few hours, unless someone right now has new material for me to work with so I can ignore this dilemma later.

The video is going to be around 25 minutes but it only has dylan avery and jim fizter. Must...get more!

I would like to tear Alex Jones a new one.

let me see if i left my vnc server on. i might be able to do it from work.

[Gravy]

Gravy, if you are going to GZ you've gotta take a camera and film those idiots harrassing mourners. Then you can post it, or give it to someone like MarkyX to add to a cideo to show the resto f the world just what these freaks are all about.
While it's possible that there are mourners at Ground Zero on any given day, and others who are paying their respects, it's a huge area and is mostly occupied by thousands of tourists and people taking the PATH train to and from Jersey. The Troofers are near the train station, in somewhat neutral ground. I don't have a video camera per se, but my still camera can take several minutes of video. I wish I had the footage that a documentarian took of me getting the head Troofer to admit that he thinks the FDNY may have been "In on it," just after he used the term "speed of gravity."

[SRW]

That's really nice, but I need one with his mother describing the phone calls. It's a must.

I will add that one though. Really hurt em.

Sorry sent you to the wrong page but T.A.M got it covered.

[Gravy]

Anything windows media can know.

But I can't wait a few hours, unless someone right now has new material for me to work with so I can ignore this dilemma later.

The video is going to be around 25 minutes but it only has dylan avery and jim fizter. Must...get more!

I would like to tear Alex Jones a new one.
Sounds like you're working on a deadline...or are you just amped up? :D

[T.A.M.]

mms://demand.stream.aol.com/cnn/us/2001/09/12/vosot.family.911.ktvu.med.asf

put the above in your browser command line

when it tells you it needs to run an external applic, let it. for me it brought up my eindows media player. from their you can save it.

[T.A.M.]

a shoot, it only brings it to media player as a stream. cant seem to save it....working on it.

[kevin]

let me see if i left my vnc server on. i might be able to do it from work.

nope. i can't get it until i get home.

[60hzxtl]

They're more like a faulty flourescent fixture: noisy but dim.



HEY! That's a 60hz buzz -

[MarkyX]

Sounds like you're working on a deadline...or are you just amped up? :D

Both.

BTW, found a way to record streaming. Don't worry about it.

Dylan Avery is right...this will be a good year for truth.

[JamesB]

The scene I had in mind is going to make Fetzer and the Truth movement look like complete jackasses and a little more.



Oh, like that is hard. :D

[MarkyX]

Oh, like that is hard. :D

You did it in blogs, I'm doing in video form :)

Fetzer is down...the Loose Change crew is down...

Any more pontetial victims of their arrogance?

[T.A.M.]

http://en.hoonnet.com/english1/recorder_intro.html

Here is a free stream recorder that will allow you to record the stream to an .asf file that you can actually download into your favorite nle suite

[T.A.M.]

Anyone know where i can find audio of Alex Jones saying the phone calls from 93 were fake.

[Regnad Kcin]

Someone remind me who it was that first predicted violence from unbalanced truthers in this insanely mammoth thread?

Whoever it was, call Mr. Randi to pick up your prize.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/24/MN115878.DTL...McCaslin was wearing a bulletproof vest, blue fatigues with "Phantom Patriot" spelled out in red letters across the chest and a rubber skeleton mask when he crept into the grove.

He quickly found himself hopelessly lost and bouncing off the trees in the pitch dark after his flashlight went out. Feeling "almost silly," he said he felt his way into a cabin, flopped down on a cot and went to sleep."Almost" silly?

[Shrinker]

Anyone with appropriate security measures dare to drop this over at Loose Change? There may be a badge in it for you. ;)

Otherwise, SLC or other bloggers take a copy if you like.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744caa6357d4a8.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744caa8197a403.jpg

[T.A.M.]

That picture sums it up to a T. I think I will make that my new wallpaper.

Kudos

[kevin]

if you still need this, i put a WMV version here:

http://www.box.net/public/static/p81cgk7j45.wmv

[Childlike Empress]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cab5fb319b4.jpg

[T.A.M.]

I'll consider believing, my dear, when one of your "scholarly" group can show us either bit of "quality" evidence that proves it was an inside job.

Oh and trust me, if your gonna go get some of the same old ***** that those rediculous blubbering idiots have used before, don't bother, as it will just get hung out to dry over here, by legitimate logic, and with cross reference to real articles that will prove it wrong.

That being said though, nice pic.

[T.A.M.]

Maybe a quote from the one and only mechanical engineer in the lot...you know the one with the Keebler elf theory....the WTCs were just like trees..

[Shrinker]

Are they the Illuminati?

[Senor_Pointy]

Are they the Illuminati?

NO! They're teh Illuminati Jooooozzz! :rolleyes:

[CptColumbo]

Let's see..

Accusing a people group of people of multiple murder on a massive scale with no evidence, and blaming them for all of the world's current problems. Using any loose connection as proof of involvment, even when the connection goes back hundreds of years. Sounds pretty "Fascist" to me.

Unwilling to admit the leaders of a movement may be mistaken (only human) or lying to you (a uniquely human trait). Sounds like "Fanatics" to me.

Accusing people who recently lost a loved one of contributing to their murder, with no evidence, all from the safety of you computer terminal where you don't actually have to confront them. When you do confront them it's when they are at their most vulnerable (a memorial service), and act like they are the rational ones when the person loses their temper and lashes out at them. Sounds pretty immoral to me.

I think you hit a nail on the head there CLE.

[WildCat]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cab5fb319b4.jpg
That's me, leaning over Geronimo's skull.

Haha, Gravy took that pic so he's not in it!:p

[Brainster]

Anyone with appropriate security measures dare to drop this over at Loose Change? There may be a badge in it for you. ;)

Otherwise, SLC or other bloggers take a copy if you like.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744caa6357d4a8.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744caa8197a403.jpg

:)

Excellent!

[Regnad Kcin]

We will never believe that our society is ruled by a very small, brutal elite which is capable of killing thousands of their own citizens for securing their privileges.Who is this "elite?" Since they are "very small" in number, please name them. Also show proof as to their being "brutal." In addition, what "privileges" is this group "securing?"

As to this alleged group being "capable of killing," most any individual is, given certain circumstances. However, that's a far cry from actually carrying out the deed (never mind covering up afterwards). You may wish to provide proof that they have and are not simply "capable" of the deed.

And for extra credit, given that this alleged "brutal elite" is "capable of killing thousands of their own citizens [sic]," please explain how you (and others supposedly on to them) are alive?

We will call everyone who dares to suggest such thing a conspiracy theorist...Correct. A person who posits a conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theorist.

Oh, and "dares?" Please. Sitting in front of your computer keyboard you dare nothing.

...and put him in a corner with fascists, fanatics and immoralists.Never mind the untruth of such an allegation, I note the irony of anyone who would blithely accuse others of mass-murder, and in turn ignoring the true perpetrators, being put out by a few little words.

We will never admit that the real dangerous fascists are in a position of power like they have never been since WWII.Rhetorical flamboyance aside, whether true of not, such a statement does not constitute proof of mass-murder on Sept. 11, 2001 by and against citizens of the U.S.

If we see something that conflicts with our worldview and can't be denied, we will ignore it completely.It may be that you fancy you've really got the drop on those wascally skeptics, but there is no "we," Elmer. Individuals on these boards (and other forums) have addressed, repeatedly, any and all claims made by conspiracy theorists in regard to the events of 9/11/01. Nothing, no one thing, has been ignored, either partially or completely.

There is no "worldview" [sic] of those who are unconvinced by the varied conspiracy claims. There is either proof or imagination. Reality or fantasy.

WE WILL NEVER BELIEVE...Not without proof, no. That you have none and yet go on and on should tell you something about the word "never."

By the way, I could be mistaken, but I don't think I've ever seen all-caps emphasis in encyclopedias, journals, or other scholarly writings. You suppose there's a reason for that?

...because if we do, we would have to admit that we have been fooled.I can't speak for anyone else regarding this silliness, but I for one completely dig when I discover new information or learn new things. And when I can correct misconceptions, all the better. So you're wrong. Amazing, isn't it? You probably thought you (or whoever composed your cute little pic) were right. But you're not. Will you apologize for your error?

Also, it would seem you make the mistake of believing others are as incapable of critical thinking as you. Will you apologize for your mistake?

Instead, we will continue to jerk off on our outstanding critical thinking abilities until the world goes down the tubes.You have no proof of your allegations vis-a-vis 9/11. After all your efforts, I understand how it must be a difficult nut to swallow. You do swallow, don't you?

[Childlike Empress]

That's me, leaning over Geronimo's skull.

Haha, Gravy took that pic so he's not in it!:p
Oh, that's you? I wonder where Georgies left hand is. Is he in it?

edit: calm down, Nick.

[WildCat]

Oh, that's you? I wonder where Georgies left hand is. Is he in it?
I can't stay mad at you because of that sexy avatar. But if I find out you're really a guy I will send one of my apprentice lackeys to take care of you. Maybe you'll be on one of those spaceships we bomb Jupiter with...

[Regnad Kcin]

calm down, Nick.No.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

We will never admit that the real dangerous fascists are in a position of power like they have never been since WWII.

Funny you should bring that up, CLE.

Care to remember whose side the real nazis are on?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1958&st=0&#entry3128970

...and put him in a corner with fascists, fanatics and immoralists.

We didn't put you in that corner, they were there when you willingly walked into it.

[Gravy]

Funny you should bring that up, CLE.

Care to remember whose side the real nazis are on?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1958&st=0&#entry3128970
I have CLE on "ignore," but I follow this enough to be able to say, "Oh, snap!"

That's a good one for the Troofers to ponder over the weekend. Come on, Troofers, name a Holocaust denier or quasi-Nazi who's prominent on the skeptic/myth debunker side of this issue.

What? You guys have ALL the Nazis?

[Gravy]

Here's a link to the second Ron Wieck/Les Jamieson interview (the first was posted earlier.) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7645426216687229050

I can't wait to see Les tomorrow!

[Pardalis]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/888644cacf8b3192b.jpg

[Pardalis]

Childlike, do you have anything of substance to say about the 9/11 events? I got to tell you, you're beginning to be as annoying as geggy.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Pardalis wins this round. :D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oh, and "dares?" Please. Sitting in front of your computer keyboard you dare nothing.

That's another thing. They bitch, whine and cry all damn day about "fascism this" and "thought police that". Yet if one of them got so much as a traffic ticket for running a yellow, they'd be crying about him being the "truth" movments first political prisoner.

So where is he? Has anyone heard anything about a truther being imprisoned for anything? Where are all the real world examples of thier freedoms being robbed of them for the crime of speaking "truth" to power?

[Pardalis]

Who is this "elite?" Since they are "very small" in number, please name them.

Since we are posting photo groups, remember the globalists (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1519480&postcount=327)?

[Senor_Pointy]

Hmmm... How do I post images?

[Regnad Kcin]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cab5fb319b4.jpgNice to see we've got time (http://www.tvacres.com/images/grandfather_clock2_small.jpg) on our side.

[Childlike Empress]

I am sure that everyone who answered to my pic (except T.A.M.) read the most of my postings. You know what my stand on Loose Change is and you know that i don't believe in CD. The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you. You (some of you) use the same tactics you accuse the "Truth Movement" of. Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what. Arkan Wolfshade's thread on how "neo-nazis drive the truth movement"? Hm? Laughable.

And what about that (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1797150&postcount=2938)? Isn't that the long awaited expert who is very surprised that the Towers collapsed? Totally ignored (an example - i am not convinced of CD, remember?).

So where is he? Has anyone heard anything about a truther being imprisoned for anything? Where are all the real world examples of thier freedoms being robbed of them for the crime of speaking "truth" to power?

Oh my. You really don't get it. What would you think if - lets say - Alex Jones, Dylan Avery and Ray McGovern get killed? That's not the way control works these days. Hm - i'm thinking about opening a new thread for that - later. I'm off for now.

edit: Hey Pardalis! :)

[Pardalis]

Hmmm... How do I post images?

Go to the 'VB Image Host' tag, at the top of the page. And follow the instructions from there.

[Senor_Pointy]

Go to the 'VB Image Host' tag, at the top of the page. And follow the instructions from there.

It tells me I don't have permission to access the page. Damn, I had a good one, too! :(

[Pardalis]

The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you.

snip

edit: Hey Pardalis! :)

Hello childlike.

If you have any proof that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job, please let us know.

[T.A.M.]

Have you seen the length of just this thread alone.

I apologize, most sincerely CLE, if I misjudged you. I just get so sick of the CTers coming in and saying "It was an Inside Job", without a shread of real evidence to back it up, that i guess I jumped all over you prematurely.

If you want to watch another good video where a CT guy tries (bold it) to match wits with a skeptic, even limitedly, check out this link

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5614033367621190011&q=hardfire+9-11

[Gravy]

It tells me I don't have permission to access the page. Damn, I had a good one, too! :(
You may need 50 posts before you can post images. email it to me at itmatters@mail.com and I'll post it for you.

[Senor_Pointy]

You may need 50 posts before you can post images. email it to me at itmatters@mail.com and I'll post it for you.

Done. Thanks!

[milesalpha]

And what about that (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1797150&postcount=2938)? Isn't that the long awaited expert who is very surprised that the Towers collapsed? Totally ignored (an example - i am not convinced of CD, remember?).



I generally stay out of this debate, simply too annoying for an aging guy with blood pressure problems but I must ask. How much can they comment on a brief newspaper story? The experiment appears to have been conducted 3 days ago (or so). Not exactly enough time to even interpret the data, let alone publish it, and subsquently critique it. Totally ignored? You referenced a post that mentioned it in this forum, that message was a headsup to watch for the program. The article even mentions that the program is due in upcoming months. The scholar involved doesn't seem to mention CD at all, only you do.
Jumping the gun a bit aren't you?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I am sure that everyone who answered to my pic (except T.A.M.) read the most of my postings. You know what my stand on Loose Change is and you know that i don't believe in CD. The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you. You (some of you) use the same tactics you accuse the "Truth Movement" of. Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what. Arkan Wolfshade's thread on how "neo-nazis drive the truth movement"? Hm? Laughable.:)

Please. The "truth" movement began sometime on the morning of September 11th, 2001 when some toothless inbred in a trailer with a rebel battle flag over the plywood covering the broken window and eye-holes cut into his white bedsheet turned on the TV and said to himself; "I bet them damned joos are behind this".

The nazis are all on your side, pick another side if you don't like it.

And what about that? Isn't that the long awaited expert who is very surprised that the Towers collapsed? Totally ignored (an example - i am not convinced of CD, remember?).

I fail to see how one room burning in a "tower" (if you can call it that) less than a quarter the height of the WTC is going to tell us how the twin towers came down.

Oh my. You really don't get it. What would you think if - lets say - Alex Jones, Dylan Avery and Ray McGovern get killed? That's not the way control works these days. Hm - i'm thinking about opening a new thread for that - later. I'm off for now.

If a "truth" seeker slept with Mike Friends-romans-countrymen-lend-me-your-ears Tysons girlfriend in front of Tyson himself and 10,000 witnesses, the other "truth" seekers would still claim he was killed for the truth.

The MIBs would undoubtedly know this and therefore would never kill him if they had half a brain. I've always said that they would instead plant either drugs or child porn in his house.

"9-11 Conspiracy nut found with huge pile of dope, suprises no-one" as a newspaper headline would be nearly as classic as "Watching this video is like being bukkaked with stupid".

[gumboot]

That's me, leaning over Geronimo's skull.

Haha, Gravy took that pic so he's not in it!:p


If you zoom in on the clock face and "enhance" it you can see his reflection on the metal of the clock arms. He took the photo with a Leicaflex camera, it reads as a 50mm lens.

Hard to read the f-stop because of the angle, but upon enhancement it looks to be at f-5.6.

:p

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Senor Pointy's Pic :D

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044cadbfee097a.jpg

[Pardalis]

Senor Pointy's Pic :D

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044cadbfee097a.jpg

That's why I love JREF! :) :D

[Gravy]

If you zoom in on the clock face and "enhance" it you can see his reflection on the metal of the clock arms. He took the photo with a Leicaflex camera, it reads as a 50mm lens.

Hard to read the f-stop because of the angle, but upon enhancement it looks to be at f-5.6.
I didn't know you were the head writer for CSI!

[Childlike Empress]

I generally stay out of this debate, simply too annoying for an aging guy with blood pressure problems but I must ask. How much can they comment on a brief newspaper story? The experiment appears to have been conducted 3 days ago (or so). Not exactly enough time to even interpret the data, let alone publish it, and subsquently critique it. Totally ignored? You referenced a post that mentioned it in this forum, that message was a headsup to watch for the program. The article even mentions that the program is due in upcoming months. The scholar involved doesn't seem to mention CD at all, only you do.
Jumping the gun a bit aren't you?
Come on. They jump on every single bit of information that contradicts the alternative "CT". They google, mail, phone, what have you. Research. In this case there was SILENCE. Isn't it interesting what led Mr. Torero to do this statements?

Prof Torero said he believed the World Trade Centre in New York should have "withstood burnout" after it was hit. [...]

Prof Torero said: "It didn't even cross my mind the buildings would collapse.

"From my perspective, those buildings were designed to last structurally for between three to four hours, enough time to get everyone out who had survived".
I know that he says nothing about CD, that's why i wrote "is very surprised that the buildings collapsed", but i had expected that at least his credibility was questioned by the gang. ;)

Have you seen the length of just this thread alone.

I apologize, most sincerely CLE, if I misjudged you. I just get so sick of the CTers coming in and saying "It was an Inside Job", without a shread of real evidence to back it up, that i guess I jumped all over you prematurely.

If you want to watch another good video where a CT guy tries (bold it) to match wits with a skeptic, even limitedly, check out this link

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5614033367621190011&q=hardfire+9-11
Nice to meet you, T.A.M. You havn't really misjudged me - i believe that 911 was an "Inside Job" whatever the details were, but that doesn't mean that i believe everything that is said by members of the "Truth Movement".

edit:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cae12212dd4.jpg

[Pardalis]

i believe that 911 was an "Inside Job" whatever the details were,

Again Childlike, please provide your evidence.

[T.A.M.]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8717148042035173685&q=john+conner

This just cracks me up...for its insanity.

Ya man, to the resistance....lol

[milesalpha]

Come on. They jump on every single bit of information that contradicts the alternative "CT". They google, mail, phone, what have you. Research. In this case there was SILENCE. Isn't it interesting what led Mr. Torero to do this statements?


edit:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cae12212dd4.jpg

Example?

His reason was fire safety, clearly stated at the end of the article. Not once does he allude to any other possible cause for the collapse, it simply seems to have ocurred too quickly for him (Titanic?). He gives no indication of what led him to these conclusions. No math to check (lovely, I hate math), no methodology to consider, there's little to say. Even this thick old historian understands that.

Unless... now the other side would be quick to jump on this since finally, they may (this seems pretty far from a sure thing for you), finally, have found, finally, one, (1) engineer who MIGHT support what they say. I can envision them posting it in a forum and finding tremendous meaning in it....hey is it too late to apply for the prize?

Which would be worse? Reserving comment, or wildly overestimating its value?

Hope you land him, one down, several hundred thousand to go.

[Regnad Kcin]

Come on. They jump on every single bit of information that contradicts the alternative "CT". They google, mail, phone, what have you. Research. In this case there was SILENCE. Isn't it interesting what led Mr. Torero to do this statements?Prof Torero said he believed the World Trade Centre in New York should have "withstood burnout" after it was hit. [...]

Prof Torero said: "It didn't even cross my mind the buildings would collapse.

"From my perspective, those buildings were designed to last structurally for between three to four hours, enough time to get everyone out who had survived".
I know that he says nothing about CD, that's why i wrote "is very surprised that the buildings collapsed", but i had expected that at least his credibility was questioned by the gang. ;)I did not see that entry until you pointed it out. Now that you have...yawn. I have nothing to say in regard to the gentleman's credibility. However, based solely on info from the BBC link, his little bonfire experiment is rather sad.

[Childlike Empress]

Example? [...]

Which would be worse? Reserving comment, or wildly overestimating its value?
Yes, an example. Perhaps some people on both sides are not interested in the truth?

@Nick: His curriculum vitae (http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/see/staff/staff/index.cfm?person=jtorero&CFID=549603&CFTOKEN=46971368).

[Regnad Kcin]

@Nick: His curriculum vitae (http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/see/staff/staff/index.cfm?person=jtorero&CFID=549603&CFTOKEN=46971368).Not a structural engineer then.

[karim]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8717148042035173685&q=john+conner

This just cracks me up...for its insanity.

Ya man, to the resistance....lol


Do you think that was a result of watching MTV Jackass and Loose Change in a row...

[Gravy]

Not a structural engineer then.
Very legitimate credentials, though. We're apparently being asked for a comment about him, but what is there to comment on? Just need to know what his objections are to the NIST report. The very brief mentions of his views about the WTC don't give any indication if he knows a lot or nothing about the investigations.

[Brainster]

I have CLE on "ignore," but I follow this enough to be able to say, "Oh, snap!"

That's a good one for the Troofers to ponder over the weekend. Come on, Troofers, name a Holocaust denier or quasi-Nazi who's prominent on the skeptic/myth debunker side of this issue.

What? You guys have ALL the Nazis?

Well, almost all (http://photos1.blogger.com/img/0/2133/1024/BrainsterHitler.jpg).

[Gravy]

Well, almost all (http://photos1.blogger.com/img/0/2133/1024/BrainsterHitler.jpg).
Link is broken, Brainster.

[Childlike Empress]

Very legitimate credentials, though. We're apparently being asked for a comment about him, but what is there to comment on? Just need to know what his objections are to the NIST report. The very brief mentions of his views about the WTC don't give any indication if he knows a lot or nothing about the investigations.
Yeah man, no need to investigate, G.

Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Link is broken, Brainster.

I smell a cover-up. :p

[Cylinder]

Yeah man, no need to investigate, G.

What do you find lacking in the previous investigations?

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but meaningful discussions cannot be held without specific claims and objective evidence.

[Pardalis]

Yeah man, no need to investigate, G.

What exactly is your point?

[Childlike Empress]

@Cylinder: In Context? Or General? Generally, there are too many believers on both sides.

@Pardalis:
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cae12212dd4.jpg
;)

[Abbyas]

May I be offended that there are no ladies in the ninja pic?

I never get invited to the good parties.

[Pardalis]

What is you point Childlike?

What are you trying to prove right now?

[Pardalis]

Childlike, if you want to say something about 9/11, say it now, stop playing around.

9/11 ISN'T A GAME

[karim]

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6103/untitled1if5.jpg

[Pardalis]

What is your point Childlike? Stop posting riddles.

[Childlike Empress]

May I be offended that there are no ladies in the ninja pic?
You should be offended. That's the same mentality the Al-Qaida-Boys have. With the difference that these western folks met women during their youth.

Blabla, Pardalis. I made enough points that were ignored. Researched BCCI?

[Cylinder]

@Cylinder: In Context? Or General? ;)

That doesn't even make sense. You seemed to imply that the investigation of the WTC collapse was unsatisfactory. I wanted to know why.

[Pardalis]

Blabla, Pardalis. I made enough points that were ignored. Researched BCCI?

The Bulgarian Chamber Of Commerce And Industry? What are you talking about?

[gumboot]

Blabla, Pardalis. I made enough points that were ignored. Researched BCCI?


I think CTers have a uniqueness complex which fuels their ideas. Above is a classic example. Because their points aren't addressed, they assume they're ignored. It is, of course, unfathomable to them that someone else has already raised such a point long ago, the point has been looked into and found lacking.

No, that couldn't happen. They must be the first person in the universe to suggest such a notion. So if you don't do extensive research into this new exciting claim, you MUST be ignoring it.

Sorry. You haven't produced anything new.

I came into the LC thread very late in the piece. Yet even I have not seen any new arguments produced since the first couple of weeks.

It's the same old stuff, over and over and over again.

When I first joined, I believe they were talking about puffs of smoke "squibs" from the WTC collapses. I remember it clearly because a "squib" is something we use in the film industry so it stuck in my mind.

And just now, in the LC thread, someone has produced the evidence of "squibs" as a new and amazing fact.

It's not. It's old. It's boring.

-Andrew

[Shrinker]

I am sure that everyone who answered to my pic (except T.A.M.) read the most of my postings. You know what my stand on Loose Change is and you know that i don't believe in CD. The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you. You (some of you) use the same tactics you accuse the "Truth Movement" of. Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what. Arkan Wolfshade's thread on how "neo-nazis drive the truth movement"? Hm? Laughable.

And what about that (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1797150&postcount=2938)? Isn't that the long awaited expert who is very surprised that the Towers collapsed? Totally ignored (an example - i am not convinced of CD, remember?).

Oh my. You really don't get it. What would you think if - lets say - Alex Jones, Dylan Avery and Ray McGovern get killed? That's not the way control works these days. Hm - i'm thinking about opening a new thread for that - later. I'm off for now.

edit: Hey Pardalis! :)

Hey CE, I'm sorry you don't think my picture is up to your usual standards of debate. However, you might notice that's there's been very little debate in this thread for a good while. One might almost suspect that the Loosers can't really back up their claims. If you could spell out for me what I'm doing that I accuse the CTers of, that would be nice. Mostly we accuse them of being wrong, so I guess we could start there...

Regarding your link. Prof Torero's theories and structural engineering qualifications aren't particularly clear in that article. And neither is his experiment, or its relevance to 9/11. I guess we're waiting for something 'concrete' to emerge. We're sure the CTers will provide details as they emerge. If you can't wait that long maybe you could ask him yourself - J. Torero's contact details can easy be found on the net.

[Childlike Empress]

@Gumboot: Please read at least my last five posts before you generalise.

That doesn't even make sense. You seemed to imply that the investigation of the WTC collapse was unsatisfactory. I wanted to know why.
I seemed to imply? Quote?

The Bulgarian Chamber Of Commerce And Industry? What are you talking about?
The Bank of Credit and Commerce International. Don't play dumb, Pardalis. Start here (http://www.icssa.org/bcci.html).

@shrinker: Your pic accused them of beeing wrong? Grow a backbone.

[Pardalis]

What is your theory Childlike?

All you posted so far are a incoherent mix of theories.

[Childlike Empress]

Pardalis, why do you allways ask others to think for you? I have no proof. How could i? I told you that i am no american, even not on the american continent. I have no coherent story to tell, Pardalis, but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?

[Cylinder]

I seemed to imply? Quote?

Sure.

Very legitimate credentials, though. We're apparently being asked for a comment about him, but what is there to comment on? Just need to know what his objections are to the NIST report. The very brief mentions of his views about the WTC don't give any indication if he knows a lot or nothing about the investigations.

To which you reply:

Yeah man, no need to investigate, G.

[Trifikas]

I realize I'm a little behind, but I was in another thread, see, and...well, never mind.


It is reasonable for Prof Jose L. Torero to have been surprised that the buildings fell. Heck, the stood up for close to an hour after they were hit, probably a lot of people were thinking they would remain standing.

But that's a far cry from saying the official investigation into why they fell is completly wrong. His statements are all in the past tense, wich I inferred as he was telling how he felt at the time. What his beliefs are now are unknown, and he doesn't say if he believes the NIST report. The article states that he is trying to improve fire safety, not disprove the NIST reports, So I think for now we'll have to put him in the "Unknown" camp, rather than on the side of CT'ers or NIST report supporters.

Agreed?

Trif

[Pardalis]

Pardalis, why do you allways ask others to think for you? I have no proof. How could i? I told you that i am no american, even not on the american continent. I have no coherent story to tell, Pardalis, but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?

No, not OK. Childlike, you have to explain what you post, and explain why you say the things you say. You are the one making the claims, the least you could do is expand on them, otherwise you're just accentuating the confusion. You can't say somehting and run away.

Why is the official story a joke, and what all these alternative theories about international corrupt organisations have to do with 9/11? Don't you have any overview of what it all adds up to? What the hell am I supposed to do with all this information?

[Shrinker]

If you can't wait that long maybe you could ask him yourself - J. Torero's contact details can easy be found on the net.
Too slow Childlike, I asked him myself and while I await his permission to post the exchange I'll show you this...

http://tinyurl.com/htzb2

How did the WTC towers collapse: a new theory


A. S. Usmani, Y. C. Chung and J. L. Torero

Abstract

This paper uses a finite-element model to investigate the stability of the Twin-Towers of the World Trade Center, New York for a number of different fire scenarios. This investigation does not take into account the structural damage caused by the terrorist attack. However, the fire scenarios included are based upon the likely fires that could have occurred as a result of the attack. A number of different explanations of how and why the Towers collapsed have appeared since the event. None of these however have adequately focused on the most important issue, namely ‘what structural mechanisms led to the state which triggered the collapse’. Also, quite predictably, there are significant and fundamental differences in the explanations of the WTC collapses on offer so far. A complete consensus on any detailed explanation of the definitive causes and mechanisms of the collapse of these structures is well nigh impossible given the enormous uncertainties in key data (nature of the fires, damage to fire protection, heat transfer to structural members and nature and extent of structural damage for instance). There is, however, a consensus of sorts that the fires that burned in the structures after the attack had a big part to play in this collapse. The question is how big? Taking this to the extreme, this paper poses the hypothetical question, "had there been no structural damage would the structure have survived fires of a similar magnitude"?
A robust but simple computational and theoretical analysis has been carried out to answer this question. Robust because no gross assumptions have been made and varying important parameters over a wide range shows consistent behaviour supporting the overall conclusions. Simple because all results presented can be checked by any structural engineer either theoretically or using widely available structural analysis software tools. The results are illuminating and show that the structural system adopted for the Twin-Towers may have been unusually vulnerable to a major fire. The analysis results show a simple but unmistakable collapse mechanism that owes as much (or more) to the geometric thermal expansion effects as it does to the material effects of loss of strength and stiffness. The collapse mechanism discovered is a simple stability failure directly related to the effect of heating (fire). Additionally, the mechanism is not dependent upon failure of structural connections.

[Pardalis]

Childlike, if you can't even make sense yourself of the theories you are posting, why are you posting it in the first place?

[Childlike Empress]

@Cylinder: Yes, and the quote that Gravy "couldn't see" was:

And what about that (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1797150&postcount=2938)? Isn't that the long awaited expert who is very surprised that the Towers collapsed? Totally ignored (an example - i am not convinced of CD, remember?).

@Pardalis: NO! I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT ADDS UP TO! I am SEEKING the truth and don't claim that i know it. I agree with you all that the term "truth movement" is at least dubious. I think it is by design dubious. edit: I am not posting theories. You know that. ;)

@Shrinker: Great! I wish this had happened without my reminder.

CU

[Pardalis]

I am not posting theories. You know that. ;)


Then what is it that you are posting?

[Shrinker]

Well, well, would you look at this. Not only does he dismiss this current fuss, he also blows a hole in the 'no other building collapsed due to fire' story. See bolding at the bottom.

My email to J. Torero:
Hi there, I read this article at the BBC and wondered if wouldn't mind
answering a query or two.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5216788.stm
I'm seeing this article quoted by 9/11 conpriacy theorists on the internet,
in an attempt to show that structural engineers are finally coming
around to the 'inside job' theory about the attacks. Is it true that you
find the collapse of the towers suspicious, or at least you believe the official
explanation lacking credibility? And do you intend to publish any work
showing finding related to this?

Thanks in advance for your time. I ask for purely personal reasons, since
the 9/11 conspiracy theories are a topic of particular interest to me.


His response:
The tests that you are refering to where conducted to demonstrate how
modern Fire Safety Engineering can help to control fires and understand
the behaviour of buildings during fires. We used an
enormous ammount of sensors to match the fire progression to pre-run
models and try to forcast the event. The relationship with 9-11 is a
weak one, it is just that if we introduced and interrogated sensors
to understand the fire and the behaviour of the structure, then we
could have provided fire fighters with adequate information on how
the structure was moving towards collapse at the WTC. The 9-11 link
leaked to the media because it is part of a TV show that the BBC is
making on modern Fire Safety Engineering. That is all.

We have worked extensively on the collapses of 9-11 and if you want
to read any of our published papers please go to

www.civ.ed.ac.uk/research/fire (http://www.civ.ed.ac.uk/Research/Fire)

It is a shame that out of a serious set of experiments, the media
has made a "9-11 revival" that has been picked up by so many people
that have not even bother asking what are we "really" doing.

My followup:

Thanks very much for your reply! I would love to read more about it but your
link isn't working. [I fixed the link above]

I'm not with the conspiracy theorists at all. In fact I try to debate them
wherever they pop up. They have a habit of latching on to articles like this
and failing to follow up with any research. Would you mind if I quoted your
response on an internet forum?

I don't what to put words into your mouth, but in the BBC article you're
quoted as saying the towers shouldn't have collapsed. From your reply here,
do you mean, they wouldn't have collapsed if firefighters had been
given proper information to prevent it?

Again, thanks for your (super-speedy) response!


J. Torero responds again:
I am attaching 2 published papers on what we believe happened.
You will see that these are very serious and detailed studies.

In regards to the quote you are refering to, this was "artistic
license" taken by the BBC, who never interviewed me but took the
liberty to edit a quote that came out in a different newspaper. What I
said is that buildings should not collapse due to fires, that the WTC
buildings had a very unique behaviour in fire, that was not antcipated
when they were designed because nobody followed a proper design
analysis of their behaviour in fire. These proper methods did not exist
in the 1960's, so the methodology used was simply to assign a
prescribed ammount of insulation. For that particular design, this
proved to be the wrong strategy.

Unfortunatelly, even with the correct information, given the particular
design, nobody would have been capable of changing the structural
outcome. Nevertheless, I believe that the intervention strategy might
have been a different one. Although, nobody knows with an event of such
magnitude.

Please feel free to quote me if you want to, I have decided not to
respond to any of the hundreds of e-mails I am getting, but yours seemd
quite sensible. So I replied.

Best regards,

Jose

PM me for the articles. All bolding mine.

[Hawk one]

In other words, J. Torero isn't supporting what CL thought he was supporting.

What a surprise.

[milesalpha]

Yes, an example. Perhaps some people on both sides are not interested in the truth?

@Nick: His curriculum vitae (http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/see/staff/staff/index.cfm?person=jtorero&CFID=549603&CFTOKEN=46971368).

Hmmm an incomprehensible reply, and in light of information from others, your hope of salvation from this engineer is now non-existent. Perhaps now you understand why you were pulling the trigger early? I haven't see you thank anyone for doing your research for you. You obviously could have done the same thing. Granted it would have brought your poor argument to a screeching halt a bit earlier but you might not have looked so very foolish in the end.
Not to worry, I am sure you can still post this on Loose Change and not a single person will follow it up.

[sat556]

"9-11 Conspiracy nut found with huge pile of dope, suprises no-one" as a newspaper headline would be nearly as classic as "Watching this video is like being bukkaked with stupid".

I was chatting to a friend of mine about this. I got so wound up talking to him he had to re-inform me that I didn't need to convince him :D
Anyway, he mentioned that a few years ago, he would have been the type to be 'found with huge pile of dope', and that he believed at that time, almost every CT going. When he gave up the gear, he felt a right idiot.

By the way, as a constant lurker on this thread, I wish to say thanks for all the work you are all doing. I am so fascinated by these CTists that I hope to use this thread as part of my psychology course at some point.

[milesalpha]

I was chatting to a friend of mine about this. I got so wound up talking to him he had to re-inform me that I didn't need to convince him :D
Anyway, he mentioned that a few years ago, he would have been the type to be 'found with huge pile of dope', and that he believed at that time, almost every CT going. When he gave up the gear, he felt a right idiot.

By the way, as a constant lurker on this thread, I wish to say thanks for all the work you are all doing. I am so fascinated by these CTists that I hope to use this thread as part of my psychology course at some point.

Take it easy on the pot smokers, will you guys. After 25 years of steady use, some of us still retain enough of our faculties to see through CT nonsense. Good weed can certainly make you giggly, and perhaps enjoy questionable movies, but it doesn't make you stupid 24/7. I think that's a result of googling too many photos.

[sat556]

Take it easy on the pot smokers, will you guys. After 25 years of steady use, some of us still retain enough of our faculties to see through CT nonsense. Good weed can certainly make you giggly, and perhaps enjoy questionable movies, but it doesn't make you stupid 24/7. I think that's a result of googling too many photos.

Lol, maybe. I can only go on what he said. Although he doesn't describe his use as 'steady' by any stretch of the imagination, I think 'excessive' was more the term he used :D

[gumboot]

@Gumboot: Please read at least my last five posts before you generalise.


Well, after excellent research, I rest my case.

All you seem to do is pop up every now and then and drop a link into the thread, accompanied by vague innuendo. When questioned on it, you declare blind ignorance.

So we run off, do some research, and find your "evidence" to be about as solid as a wet paper bag.

It took me all of five minutes to discover why Halliburton got the Iraq contracts, that they were won in an open bid, and that they made very little money off them.

I don't think I've ever seen you present a single scrap of "evidence" that wasn't founding to be insubstantional within a page or two of the thread.

So, if you'd be so kind, would you answer a question for me? It is in response to this comment, made by you:


I have no coherent story to tell, Pardalis, but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?

If you'd be so kind, explain to me, in plain english, devoid of links, why the official story is a joke to you.

Thank you in advance.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

Well, well, would you look at this. Not only does he dismiss this current fuss, he also blows a hole in the 'no other building collapsed due to fire' story. See bolding at the bottom.


Excellent work Shrinker. Thanks for the info. :)

-Andrew

[Dave_46]

Pardalis, why do you allways ask others to think for you? I have no proof. How could i? I told you that i am no american, even not on the american continent. I have no coherent story to tell, Pardalis, but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?

I'm another who would like to know. WHY is the official story a joke for you?

Dave

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I am sure that everyone who answered to my pic (except T.A.M.) read the most of my postings. You know what my stand on Loose Change is and you know that i don't believe in CD. The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you. You (some of you) use the same tactics you accuse the "Truth Movement" of. Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what. Arkan Wolfshade's thread on how "neo-nazis drive the truth movement"? Hm? Laughable.
...

Coming in a little late to this party, but oh well.

I'm calling you on this. Show where my information is incorrect. Or, are you laughing because you don't care that one of the sites being cited often by the "Truth" movement is a known group of history revisionists founded by a known Holocaust denier?

[T.A.M.]

People like CLE have a right to be the way they are...curious, unconvinced, skeptical of what they've been told. We are this way as well.

It is not people like her that worry me, as she seems to be, for the most part, an actual "Truth" seeker. I hope she is as open to our evidence, which 99% of the time is much more solid, than that of the CTers, as she is to theirs.

The people that worry me, the people that I come here to debate with and argue with are people like Killtown, and Dylan, and that lot. People who are not truth seekers, but rather "Truth" fabricators. They seek to find little incoherencies in the 9/11 story, which are easy to find, as they are in any major event of such scope, and to then weave a tapestry of deceit and coverup from those little bits.

Now, 20 years ago I wouldn't have paid them much attention, as they had no real vehicle for their crap. With the Internet, however, the whole thing changes. Now they have a massive vehicle, full of young, naive, susceptable minds, to grind their crap into. Now I must take up the call, like so many others have, to make sure that those out their who might listen to them, also have to opportunity to study the REAL evidence, and make up their own minds.

(comes down off soap box and smiles) :)

[realitybites]

(comes down off soap box and smiles) :)
Crowd goes *****' wild. :D

[Joytown]

Thought this would be of interest.

There's a new NOVA being aired on Sept 5th that's a followup to "Why The Towers Fell" called "Building on Ground Zero". From the article I read:

""Building on Ground Zero" follows up the 2002 report "Why the Towers Fell," reporting that earlier speculations on structural causes for the collapse may not be proven accurate. Further investigation suggests not that the trade center trusses gave way and floors "pancaked," but that the trusses held so well, supporting columns were broken. Yet this history update only leads into examining the future, said program producer Larry Klein.

"We look at what happened on 9/11 and what that revealed about the general issue of safety in all tall buildings, not just the World Trade Center," Klein said yesterday. He wants to "use the event to say, how do we move forward? How do we make safer buildings?" The "NOVA" hour assesses possible building code revisions versus their cost, and shows advances being built into projects like 7 World Trade and Shanghai's new world's-tallest-building, the World Financial Center."

The article also talks about another program on PBS "America Rebuilds" - "a very powerful documentary about healing" ... ."Debates over an appropriate memorial are part of the focus. So is a portrait of current activity at the site, from early tenants in the rebuilt 7 World Trade building to the tour guides and protestors still working out their own reactions to the disaster."

Source: newsday.com/entertainment/tv/ny-flleft4831820jul28,0,3525268.story?coll=ny-television-print

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/


-joytown

BTW since I'm new to these forums, a procedural question: would this be appropriate as it's own thread, or the the LC3 the overarching repository for all things 9-11? I vacilllate between not wanting to start 25 threads ala Muttonhead and not wanting my post to get buried in the 50+ page behemoth that is the LC3 thread!

[Brainster]

Link is broken, Brainster.

Hmmm,, must be cached over here. Here's the post where I used the photo (http://brainster.blogspot.com/2005_05_29_brainster_archive.html#1117723028644995 35).

This is, of course, just a confirmation of Godwin's Law.

[WildCat]

If you'd be so kind, explain to me, in plain english, devoid of links, why the official story is a joke to you.

Thank you in advance.

-Andrew
I've asked many a CT'er that question. Asked them to simply link to a single aspect of the NIST report, and give the page number so I know exactly what hey're talking about, and state theri objections.

None has ever done so.

I get the feeling that 99.9% of CT'ers have never even glanced at the executive summaries of any of the NIST reports, and are simply parroting something they heard or read. Some will link to the idiotic Jones or King papers, but none ever describe exactly what they find wrong in the NIST reports.

[karim]

As it's said on the Screw Loose Change blog someone needs to tell al-Zawahiri that al-Qaeda did not pull off 9-11. Chucksheen should give him a link to universalseed or something.

From his new speech:

About a year before the two raids of New York and Washington the leader Abu-Hafs (may Allah have mercy on he's soul), gave lecture to a group of trainees about Palestine and the Muslims conditions in Qandahar. At the end of the lecture the hero, Muhammad Attah (may Allah have mercy on he's soul) Stood up and asked the leader with seriousness and enthusiasm "What is the way to defeat the attack on Palestine?" and America knows very well the rest of the story. The Ummah that produced the nineteen who shook America is able with the assistance of Allah to produce double that number.
Abu-Hafs=Muhammad Atef


Fight the NewWorldOrder

[Brainster]

Well, well, would you look at this. Not only does he dismiss this current fuss, he also blows a hole in the 'no other building collapsed due to fire' story. See bolding at the bottom.

My email to J. Torero:


His response:

My followup:

J. Torero responds again:

PM me for the articles. All bolding mine.

What kind of truth-seeking is this? Contacting people in the real world is not allowed, unless you interview them on videotape and put it up on YouTube!

All kidding aside, great work!

[WildCat]

As it's said on the Screw Loose Change blog someone needs to tell al-Zawahiri that al-Qaeda did not pull off 9-11. Chucksheen should give him a link to universalseed or something.

From his new speech:


Abu-Hafs=Muhammad Atef


Fight the NewWorldOrder
Ha! They think that al-Zawahiri is a CIA fabrication. They use this get-out-jail-free card whenever al-Qaeda makes claims of committing the crimes of 9/11.

[WildCat]

What kind of truth-seeking is this? Contacting people in the real world is not allowed, unless you interview them on videotape and put it up on YouTube!

All kidding aside, great work!
No, you steal footage from other people's interviews, take their quotes out of context, and them put them on youtube.

That was great work Shrinker, amazing that the CT'ers can't seem to find any real info despite the 24/7 "research" they claim to be doing.

[gumboot]

That was great work Shrinker, amazing that the CT'ers can't seem to find any real info despite the 24/7 "research" they claim to be doing.


I think LC and others like it must be an ingenious ploy to prevent people like us finding the truth.

Here's my logic...

Most of their facts take about 30 seconds with google to uncover as wrong. However not all.

Certain phrases, when put in google, just bring up an impenetrable wall of CT sites. Only the stout of heart and mind can wade through the pages of schlock in the hope of finding something useful.

As time progresses, these sites multiply. Soon it will take days to wade through the murk. Type in "NORAD 9/11" and CT pages will fill your vision, yea, even unto the very horizon, and the bright sun that rises beyond.

I see how clear their plan is. One day there will be so many CT sites, there won't be ROOM for the truth. Sites of fact will start being forced out, for want of space.

They're trying to fill up the internet!

-Andrew

[dubfan]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)

[Regnad Kcin]

Nick, please tell me your opinion on shrinkers pic. Is this really excellent? True? Or what.What, this?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744caa8197a403.jpg

What about it do you object to?

[Regnad Kcin]

...I have no proof. How could i? I told you that i am no american, even not on the american continent. I have no coherent story to tell...but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?Have you read the official story? I have a guess, but you go ahead first.

[WildCat]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)

:D

I was waiting for something like this!

[Regnad Kcin]

Shrinker:

Very nice effort with Prof. J. Torero.

[gumboot]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)



Wow... that's funny...

One thing, that really confuses me often. The turn AA77 makes before it hits the Pentagon. This seems important to the CTers. Phrases like "you think an inexperienced pilot made a 270 degree descending turn".

I just don't understand it. I mean... do they understand what a "270 degree turn" is? A super-tanker, with a turn radius of about 2 miles, can make a 360 degree turn. And if it can make a 360 degree turn, it can make a 720 degree turn by going around twice.

I just can't fathom why this is really so important. So he turned around. And? I mean, at least the "descending x many feet in x many minutes" is something to look into. You can do some research, and go, "wow, that's quite impressive" or "okay, that's pretty normal".

But, I mean, how much use would a vehicle of ANY sort be if it couldn't do a 360 degree turn? (And don't forget, if you can do 360 degrees, you can do any degree between 1 and, well, infinity really...).

"Now, this new Ford Mustang is a real beauty sir, great power, excellent traction. But I must warn you, it can only do up to 75 degree turns. So there's no going back! Haw haw haw."

I mean a TRAIN can't do a 270 degree turn, sure. They need those little roundabout thingies to turn em around. But can anyone else think of a single steerable vehicle that CANT do a 270 degree turn? :confused: :confused: :confused:

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

Okay, another request again.

I'm still looking for key members of the 9/11 Deniers (like Alex Jones) who said outlandish stuff in interviews.

But the new request I want to give is an article that refutes the myth of hijackers being alive still. Every single one of them. While 9/11 myths is great, I can't show images of 20 articles and images.

[Cylinder]

I'm still looking for key members of the 9/11 Deniers (like Alex Jones) who said outlandish stuff in interviews.

Actually, AJ will be hosting a panel tonight at 8PM EDT on C-SPAN:

September 11th Terrorist Attacks
Alex Jones Productions
Los Angeles, California (United States)
ID: 193155 - 06/25/2006 - 1:50 - $24.95

Jones, Alex Filmmaker
Fetzer, James H. Co-Founder, Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Bowman, Robert M. Member, Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Jones, Steven E. Co-Founder, Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Tarpley, Webster Griffin Author

Panelists discussed theories on alleged conspiracies regarding the origins of the attacks on September 11, 2001.

Mr. Tarpley is the author of 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, published by Progressive Press.

The two-day event, “American Scholars Symposium: 9/11 and The Neo-Con Agenda,” was held in the ballroom of the Sheraton Los Angeles Downtown.

[Regnad Kcin]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)I wonder, is johndoex naturally an ass, or does he stay up late at night practicing?

[MikeW]

But the new request I want to give is an article that refutes the myth of hijackers being alive still. Every single one of them.
A video of the interview with Waleed and Wail Al-Shehri's brother would be good (see http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/msnbc082502.html for the transcript, search for "Saleh" to find where it begins in the document). Not much chance of finding it, though.

The most relevant single article is the one where the Saudi's admit that the named 15 of their citizens were actually involved:

Previously, Saudi Arabia had said the citizenship of 15 of the 19 hijackers was in doubt despite U.S. insistence they were Saudis. But Interior Minister Prince Nayef told The Associated Press that Saudi leaders were shocked to learn 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

"The names that we got confirmed that," Nayef said in an interview. "Their families have been notified."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm

[MarkyX]

I'm talking more about disgracing the victims. I am not making this video to refute every little detail: 911myths.com already does that.

[MarkyX]

A video of the interview with Waleed and Wail Al-Shehri's brother would be good (see http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/msnbc082502.html for the transcript, search for "Saleh" to find where it begins in the document). Not much chance of finding it, though.

The most relevant single article is the one where the Saudi's admit that the named 15 of their citizens were actually involved:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm

Yeah I know about that article, but not all of the hijackers were saudi. Example would be Atta, who was born in egypt and was in Hamburg, Germany before joining Al-Qaeda.

[Gravy]

Nice job, Shrinker.

[Palimpsest]

I wonder, is johndoex naturally an ass, or does he stay up late at night practicing?

I'd say both. A lot of natural talent is required, of course, but also constant rigorous practice.

[Shrinker]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)

That's brilliant! JDX's stormy exits are hilarious. And the bit where he admits he uses drugs and gets dobbed in to the FAA is just surreal.

[karim]

Okay, another request again.

I'm still looking for key members of the 9/11 Deniers (like Alex Jones) who said outlandish stuff in interviews.




You can get lot of AJ appearances and other speechess and interviews in decent resolution from the Conspiracy Central tracker.

http://conspiracycentral.net:6969/

[Brainster]

Not sure if anybody's posted this, but I wanted to make sure it got highlighted. Ronald Wieck, a Libertarian talk show host, grills Les Jamison of the New York 9-11 Deniers. He makes extensive use of 9-11 Myths and also cites our own Mark (Gravy) Roberts.

Part I (occasional sound problems) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4732132614662229339)
Part II (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7645426216687229050)

This shows how a well-prepared host, using excellent sources, can demolish a 9-11 Denier. Over at 9-11 Blogger (http://www.911blogger.com/2006/07/les-jamieson-interviewed-by-ronald.html), there's some bluster in the comments, but mostly acknowledgement that Wieck crushed Jamison. There's the usual "Where is our great spokesman?" question, answered by several with Kevin Barrett. :rolleyes:

Kudos to Gravy and Mike and Wieck.

[T.A.M.]

kevin Barrett...now I am laughing.

If he is gonna be their great spokesman, than the debunkers have already won. All he can do is yell and scream and call people names.

[Pardalis]

People like CLE have a right to be the way they are...curious, unconvinced, skeptical of what they've been told. We are this way as well.

It is not people like her that worry me, as she seems to be, for the most part, an actual "Truth" seeker. I hope she is as open to our evidence, which 99% of the time is much more solid, than that of the CTers, as she is to theirs.

The people that worry me, the people that I come here to debate with and argue with are people like Killtown, and Dylan, and that lot. People who are not truth seekers, but rather "Truth" fabricators. They seek to find little incoherencies in the 9/11 story, which are easy to find, as they are in any major event of such scope, and to then weave a tapestry of deceit and coverup from those little bits.

Now, 20 years ago I wouldn't have paid them much attention, as they had no real vehicle for their crap. With the Internet, however, the whole thing changes. Now they have a massive vehicle, full of young, naive, susceptable minds, to grind their crap into. Now I must take up the call, like so many others have, to make sure that those out their who might listen to them, also have to opportunity to study the REAL evidence, and make up their own minds.

(comes down off soap box and smiles) :)

Excellent post.

What really bothers me is the extend of how these CT nuts have polluted the internet. It's impossible these days to make a search on Google for information about 9/11 without getting countless conspiracy sites. In comparison, there are very few sites about the real story. These CT sites have multiplied like rabbits. They link to eatch other and have become themselves a web, a barrier to the real information. It's even worse when you want to search video from 9/11.

What worries me, as you said TAM, is that the young people who don't necesserally know how to do proper research and analysis, who take the internet as their sole source of information, will only get the misinfo these CT sites spout. What kind of generation will that create? They are teaching the youth to think the US government is a criminal entity, a mass murdering organistion. Kids will get accustomed to such ideas, as they usually do. Now what kind of adults will thake make? How will they be able to vote properly, to appreciate good research and develop skeptical thinking skills? How will they differenciate bad from good information?

[Pardalis]

BTW, excellent investigation Shrinker!

[Pardalis]

I think LC and others like it must be an ingenious ploy to prevent people like us finding the truth.

Here's my logic...

Most of their facts take about 30 seconds with google to uncover as wrong. However not all.

Certain phrases, when put in google, just bring up an impenetrable wall of CT sites. Only the stout of heart and mind can wade through the pages of schlock in the hope of finding something useful.

As time progresses, these sites multiply. Soon it will take days to wade through the murk. Type in "NORAD 9/11" and CT pages will fill your vision, yea, even unto the very horizon, and the bright sun that rises beyond.

I see how clear their plan is. One day there will be so many CT sites, there won't be ROOM for the truth. Sites of fact will start being forced out, for want of space.

They're trying to fill up the internet!

-Andrew

Exactly, that's exactly what I thought. You beat me to it! :D

[dubfan]

This shows how a well-prepared host, using excellent sources, can demolish a 9-11 Denier.

Memo to Sean Hannity.

[Joytown]

I wonder, is johndoex naturally an ass, or does he stay up late at night practicing?

My favorite part is this:

JDX shows up in the pilot's forum accusing Bill(18wheeler) of being a poser, and guess what - Billzilla's already there!

pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2746202&posted=1#post2746202

To top it off:

Note join date and number of posts:

18-Wheeler (Billzilla)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gold Coast
Age: 41
Posts: 981

AluminumDrvr (JohnDoeX)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: different city each week
Posts: 19

(and most the posts are in this thread: pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235685&page=2)

Been fun to watch. I need to get my "pilot" type questions up over there before they chase off an actual pilot!

-joytown

[Pardalis]

Well, after excellent research, I rest my case.

All you seem to do is pop up every now and then and drop a link into the thread, accompanied by vague innuendo. When questioned on it, you declare blind ignorance.

So we run off, do some research, and find your "evidence" to be about as solid as a wet paper bag.

It took me all of five minutes to discover why Halliburton got the Iraq contracts, that they were won in an open bid, and that they made very little money off them.

I don't think I've ever seen you present a single scrap of "evidence" that wasn't founding to be insubstantional within a page or two of the thread.


To give Childlike some credit, here's the thread where she explains some of her doubts about 9/11:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58359

[Regnad Kcin]

...Basically what im saying is... they [Australians] can sit here and tell us all they want how they feel the US Govt theory is accurate. But bottom line is, their words mean nothing. The only foreigners that have a valid point are those ready to take up arms to help Americans take back their country., he bravely proclaimed from the daring, front-line position of his computer keyboard.

Will Obviousman and Bill [Billzilla, the Aussie pilot] come over here, armed, fighting for the neo-cons if there is a second American Revolution? Hells no... they will cower in their respective lands trying to post on the internet how wrong it is for Americans to be Patriots. I bet these men dont even know what it means to be a patriot.Yawn.

How about .... no. I'll do as I damnwell please actually.You can do as you damn well please.. .but if you come to my land trying to push your rhetoric on me... or even try to force your rhetoric on me, i'll be extremely proud to introduce you to the Second Amendment.Ooo, he's so manly!

[WildCat]

, he bravely proclaimed from the daring, front-line position of his computer keyboard.

Yawn.

Ooo, he's so manly!
I'm beginning to think that JDX isn't working as a pilot any more because he went completely insane.

[Shrinker]

I'm beginning to think that JDX isn't working as a pilot any more because he went completely insane.
Maybe...
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/361744cbaa5493ff6.jpg

[Belz...]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/990744cab5fb319b4.jpg

I've got a question for you, Empress:

If that small elite group out to conquer the world has been at this for decades, if not centuries, with the alleged ressources and efficiency, why haven't they succeded yet ?

I'll be holding my breath.

[Belz...]

The reason why i "mirrored" shrinkers pic is because i am beginning to lose respect for you. You (some of you) use the same tactics you accuse the "Truth Movement" of.

Words, and words. Got any actual point you'd like to discuss about 9/11 ? Something that hasn't been debunked yet ?

Arkan Wolfshade's thread on how "neo-nazis drive the truth movement"? Hm? Laughable.

I don't suppose the nazis DO drive the "truth" movement. However, the association is not only unfortunate, but alarming.

Oh my. You really don't get it. What would you think if - lets say - Alex Jones, Dylan Avery and Ray McGovern get killed? That's not the way control works these days.

Convenient. When people die, they were silenced. When they don't, there's another explanation. Something and it's opposite can't both support the same theory, Childlike.

[Belz...]

Come on. They jump on every single bit of information that contradicts the alternative "CT". They google, mail, phone, what have you. Research. In this case there was SILENCE. Isn't it interesting what led Mr. Torero to do this statements?

So... is response to nonsense good or bad ? You people usually say "see: those skeptikz are all up in arms about this new heavy-dense of ours. They're so riled up by it, there must be somethin' to it!". And now you say: "see: those skeptikz completely ignore this new heavy-dense of ours. If they hush up so much, there must be somethin' to it!"

Something and its opposite can't both support the same theory, Childlike.

[Stellafane]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)

I just read the whole exchange -- loved it! Although if this was thermonuclear war, it was pretty unilateral, with billzilla dropping nuke after nuke, and jdx basically just farting in his general direction in response. I'm surprised the LC forum mods didn't ban billzilla though, since it must have been obvious even to them that their hometown boy jdx was getting vaporized into his constituent elements.

In the end, I get the impression jdx has to keep going at it, no matter how utterly ridiculous he looks, because this is his entire life -- the LC forum might be the only place in the whole world where he's not perceived as a hopeless loser.

[T.A.M.]

Guys;

I need audio files of the following deniers:

(1) Fetzer (2) A. Jones (3) Jimmy Walter (4) Morgan reynolds (5) Dylan Avery (6) Korey Rowe (7) David Griffin

I am looking for audio files with them making comments on (1) victims of flight 93, (2) the FAKE phone calls, (3) Betty Ong and Others aboard the flights.

Some will be difficult, I know, AS I have already searched.

[Belz...]

May I be offended that there are no ladies in the ninja pic?

I never get invited to the good parties.

That can be arranged. NYC isn't too far from Québec!

[Belz...]

Pardalis, why do you allways ask others to think for you? I have no proof. How could i? I told you that i am no american, even not on the american continent. I have no coherent story to tell, Pardalis, but the official story is a joke for me. Ok?

@Pardalis: NO! I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT ADDS UP TO! I am SEEKING the truth and don't claim that i know it. I agree with you all that the term "truth movement" is at least dubious. I think it is by design dubious. edit: I am not posting theories. You know that. ;)

Excellent! I you're looking for the truth, then I suggest looking at the NIST and FEMA reports. Since you're so good at thinking for yourself, you'll need no link from me. I you HAVE read them yet, and you're so good at thinking for yourself, then NOW you may be able to formulate a theory and post it here, so we can actually debate it instead of trading insults.

[kevin]

I just read the whole exchange -- loved it!

my favorite bit was when jdx "proves" bill isn't a pilot because he doesn't know american football slang. I knew we americans could be self-centered but to see it in action. wow.

I'm surprised the LC forum mods didn't ban billzilla though, since it must have been obvious even to them that their hometown boy jdx was getting vaporized into his constituent elements.

I'm pretty sure THEY think jdx won.

[Johnny C.]

That's brilliant! JDX's stormy exits are hilarious. And the bit where he admits he uses drugs and gets dobbed in to the FAA is just surreal.

I took that as sarcasm since someone told him to go take a xanax earlier in the thread.

I could have read it wrong, i am mildly hungover and very hungry.

Either way, he amazes me. Does he ever work? I know hes not a pilot but he never takes more than a couple hour break from posting this nonsense. Maybe hes on disability??

[Abbyas]

Just got back from Ground Zero adventures with Gravy and RealityBites.

Better than Six Flags.

I brought a buddy who doesn't spend nearly as much time on this stuff, and he was very excited to be accused of being Mossad.

[Belz...]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)

Someone should invite Billzilla over here.

[Regnad Kcin]

According to johndoex, JREFers sent Billzilla over there!

[Belz...]

In the end, I get the impression jdx has to keep going at it, no matter how utterly ridiculous he looks, because this is his entire life -- the LC forum might be the only place in the whole world where he's not perceived as a hopeless loser.

That was my impression as well: he's in too deep. Now he just HAS to continue in this direction. It's do or die.

[Regnad Kcin]

Just got back from Ground Zero adventures with Gravy and RealityBites.

Better than Six Flags.

I brought a buddy who doesn't spend nearly as much time on this stuff, and he was very excited to be accused of being Mossad.Shirley you can spare more details, Agent A.

[Belz...]

Oh, my...

Here i have one guy. claiming to be a 747 Capt from Europe, who has no interest in reading the official reports, yet is convinced 100% of the content of those reports he never read.

Then we have another guy. Also not an American. A guy from half way around the world with respect to home town in NY. Trying to convince me why and how the official reports make perfect sense.

Both of them do not have the right to vote in my country. Both of them not affected by the Patriot Act. Both of them trying to convince me why its absurd to question my govt and that i should just accept the govt official story. Neither one of them have the worry to be called up for a draft by President Bush. And they are telling me how i should accept the govt theory?

Of course... they're not Americans. They couldn't possibly know about what goes on, here.

Once you are an American citizen, then you'll have the right and the privilege to debate me on issues that effect ME!

Can we call that misplaced "patriotism" ?

ETA: And Johndoe thinks Australia is in Europe!!

[Senor_Pointy]

Can we call that misplaced "patriotism" ?

We could, but it's so much easier (and so much more truthful) to just call that being an *********.

[WildCat]

ETA: And Johndoe thinks Australia is in Europe!!
Well, Hitler was from Australia... give or take a few letters. :boxedin:

[Belz...]

And the fun just keeps on pouring in:

I'd like to know how these people feel that i can vote in the US, and they cannot counter it with their vote. Must be frustrating..

Oh, NO! We poor non-Americans can't vote in the #1 super-duper country in the world!! I lose sleep over it, really.

(not that I'd mind voting Bush out of office)

However, if you even try to come to my homeland and force your rhetoric on me, i'll be sure to make you very aware of the Second Amendment. Deal?

Hope he doesn't bring that attitude on board his plane...

I dont threaten anyone till they threaten me first... and/or tell me how i should think

!!!

Holy crap.. you could care less about our country.. yet you defend an official theory offered by our govt?

Of course. They ARE one and the same. Sure. Whatever.

[Regnad Kcin]

Bill[zilla] your arrogance and antagonistic style here...You have shown some of the most disgusting arrogance I have ever seen in my life. You are so arrogant you cannot even see the flaws in your own logic...Wonderful. Now I must hie myself over to Sam's Club for another pallet of irony meters. Good thing they're cheaper by the gross.

[Abbyas]

Once you are an American citizen, then you'll have the right and the privilege to debate me on issues that effect ME!

Except jenebell.

[Belz...]

Oooh... someone else jumps into the stupid wagon:

That's my point it doesn't count. It was a joke. Just as many of you so-called pilot experts are telling us non-pilots of your flying abilities. I would think if you truly are a pilot then you would be THE FIRST ONE to stand up and say that these foreign terrorist (tourist) with little training couldn't possibly have done what the 'official lie' tells us they did. Or is flying an airplane not such a complicated feat/accomplishment afterall?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=420

"He's not a REAL pilot because he disagrees with me." Talk about circular reasoning.

[Belz...]

Except jenebell.

Speaking of which...

Bill your arrogance and antagonistic style here along with your relentless ridicule, demand for spoon fed information and “chase your tail” tactics here have shown me one glaring thing; you are not here to debate the issue of flying at all. It is blatantly obvious that you are here as an attack dog only and it appears that it is your mission (or orders) is to try and discredit JDX.

It's also funny how they both speak up against the fact that he's "100%" sure of something, and the fact that he's not sure about something else.

[apathoid]

Someone should invite Billzilla over here.

I had a brief PM exchange with Billzilla and invited him to the SLC forums to help me with a technical rebuttal to Russ Pickering and he said he'd drop in tomorrow. If he shows up, I'll point him here....

Bill[zilla] your arrogance and antagonistic style here...
Man, he/she hasnt been around too many pilots. Most 747 drivers wouldn't have been nearly as congenial with JDX, especially after the implied death threats.

[MarkyX]

Do I really need to point out why I call them 9/11 Deniers now instead of "Truth" movement?

[ktesibios]

I'd like to know how these people feel that i can vote in the US, and they cannot counter it with their vote. Must be frustrating..

As someone who is a citizen of the USA and a serial voter to boot, the idea that JDX votes scares the bejabbers out of me.

The thought that someone who has so little grasp of reasoning based on evidence and such a tendency to cling to a conclusion irrespective of evidence could wind up serving on a jury is also rather unsettling.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oh, my...



Of course... they're not Americans. They couldn't possibly know about what goes on, here.



Can we call that misplaced "patriotism" ?

ETA: And Johndoe thinks Australia is in Europe!!

I did a quick web search, according to my findings, 4 australian citizens died in the World Trade Center on 9-11.

Billzilla has all the right in the world to talk about the murders of his countrymen.

I'm pretty pro-american even for a western canadian. JohndoeX exemplifies the kind of "ugly american" stereotype that I find myself defending against when discussing the USA with my own countrymen.

[T.A.M.]

from the tone of his posts, I think the biggest reason he said what he said, was territorialism at its finest.

You see JohnDoeX is the Alpha Male of Pilot issues over on that forum. then suddenly in springs this younger (to the forum) male, and well, the rest as they say...

Oh, and I am not american either, but your northern brothers lost people in 9/11 as well, and we are over in Afghanistan fighting along side you...

[WildCat]

As someone who is a citizen of the USA and a serial voter to boot, the idea that JDX votes scares the bejabbers out of me.

The thought that someone who has so little grasp of reasoning based on evidence and such a tendency to cling to a conclusion irrespective of evidence could wind up serving on a jury is also rather unsettling.
The OJ jury is Exhibit A.

[Cylinder]

Do I really need to point out why I call them 9/11 Deniers now instead of "Truth" movement?

Probably the same reason I refer to their ideas as conspiracy hypotheses instead of conspiracy theories.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oh, and I am not american either, but your northern brothers lost people in 9/11 as well, and we are over in Afghanistan fighting along side you...

Twenty five Canadians in fact. Including a former player for the Edmonton Oilers who mentored a young Wayne Gretzky. I'm from Edmonton, that's a big deal for us.

And yes, Canadians are serving quite honorably alongside thier American brothers in Afghanistan. Including the legendary Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Patricia%27s_Canadian_Light_Infantry#Afgh anistan

[MarkyX]

Princess Patricias are freaking amazing.

Sorry to bug again, but anyone know where I can get a good list of videos involving house fires or office fires with explosions in them?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The OJ jury is Exhibit A.

Actually, I reluctantly agree with the oft-maligned OJ verdict. My sticking point was hearing Mark Furhman using "n_gger" every third word on that tape and then taking the fifth when he was called back to the stand and asked "Have you tampered with or planted evidence in this particular case?".

Regardless of the specific case used to illustrate your point, it does remain valid in a general sense. There are alot of stupid people in votings and jury boxes out there.

[Pardalis]

Sorry to bug again, but anyone know where I can get a good list of videos involving house fires or office fires with explosions in them?

How about "Die Hard"?

Just kidding ;)

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by JohndoeX :
I dont threaten anyone till they threaten me first... and/or tell me how i should think
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044cbefed3e446.jpg

[T.A.M.]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7440129306993364432&q=loose+change

Everytime I see this clip it angers me to the extreme. However, I watch it to renew my committment to let people know what these guys are really about.

[T.A.M.]

I would love to spend 15 minutes taking that little Bermas F^&Ker down a few dozen pegs.

How godamn arrogant can you get to stand and even whisper a word to a man who fought the fires on 9/11 and watched 400 of his friends and collegues perish, at the 9/11 site, on 9/11.

[Pardalis]

BTW T.A.M., nice Hardfire videos, you posted earlier. That Ronald Wieck fellow is interesting, and he's exactly how skeptics should handle the CTers, calmly and straight to the facts (I'm having a hard time doing that, I tend to get emotional very quickly with these nuts).

His tone of voice reminds me of David Lynch! :D

[T.A.M.]

He is very good. I would love to get the guys here to give him all the facts, to really fill him full of th einfo.

As for the vids, I gotta pass your thanks on to the Screw Loose Change guys, as they put me on to the first one, and from their I just watched everything they had on the topic with Weick in it.

[SRW]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7440129306993364432&q=loose+change

Everytime I see this clip it angers me to the extreme. However, I watch it to renew my committment to let people know what these guys are really about.

I went to Ground Zero last summer to find the name of my friend. Everyone there was quite and respectful. After watching this I just went from pissed to outraged, pissed and motivated to do something about these scum bags.

[JamesB]

The "Scholars" conference is on CSPAN now, if you can stand watching these idiots.

[SRW]

Regardless of the specific case used to illustrate your point, it does remain valid in a general sense. There are alot of stupid people in votings and jury boxes out there.

I was on a Jury, where we were deadlocked because one guy was convinced that a minister would never preform oral sex on a girl. He was OK with him raping her, forcing her to perform oral sex on him but could not believe the man would preform oral sex on a minor. Luckily we had three other counts to convict him on but despite overwhelming evidence it was like he put his fingers in his ears and went lalalalalala.

You guys who are on the front lines of this have my gratitude, sympathy and respect.

[Gravy]

I would love to spend 15 minutes taking that little Bermas F^&Ker down a few dozen pegs.

How godamn arrogant can you get to stand and even whisper a word to a man who fought the fires on 9/11 and watched 400 of his friends and collegues perish, at the 9/11 site, on 9/11.
Just a clarification. The fireman, Paul Isaac Jr., is with the FDNY Auxiliary, which is a volunteer organization. I believe Paul does communications work. I don't know if that's a regular gig or if these volunteers are called on when needed. Paul checks in here now and then as "Sentinel," so maybe he can tell us more about the role of the FDNY Auxiliary. He does a good job of expressing his outrage at the idea of protesting at Ground Zero on 9/11. He has some notions that the government may have been involved in 9/11, but it's been impossible to get a coherent post about that from him here.

A funny FDNY story: Today at Ground Zero a fire truck was going by and it slowed down so its men could yell at the Troofers:
"Get outta here, you *****' a-holes!'
"Shut the hell up, you idiots!"

Well, Abby didn't want to be mistaken for a Troofer, so she jumped up and down and yelled, "I'm not with them!" She took a few steps in their direction, and I thought she was going to run after them, but that may be the reaction she has to firemen in general.

On my way home, my local guys at Squad 1 were at a call near my house. Twelve names on the side of that truck. Goddamnit.

Four of the Troofers said the FDNY were in on the "inside job."

Two troofers said the hijackers were also victims, just like the passengers and crew.


ETA: Door from Squad 1 in the Smithsonian Museum of American History,
and their new truck, today. Go get 'em, Abby!

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044cc048090ca5.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044cc048092414.jpg

[Abbyas]

Well, Abby didn't want to be mistaken for a Troofer, so she jumped up and down and yelled, "I'm not with them!" She took a few steps in their direction, and I thought she was going to run after them, but that may be the reaction she has to firemen in general.

Yes, it's hard to say, "I think it's terrible that they accuse you of being complicit and I'm here to fight for you guys too and I like your calendar and do you want children??!!!" very quickly.

After a couple of steps, I thought, "what in the hey am I doing."

[T.A.M.]

Thanks for the clarification.

I am still sure he did his part on 9/11, unlike those F&*king creeps. To here Bermas go on and on, as ignorant as hell. I am sorry, but I just wish I had 15 minutes to tell him what I really think.

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes, it's hard to say, "I think it's terrible that they accuse you of being complicit and I'm here to fight for you guys too and I like your calendar and do you want children??!!!" very quickly...Must. Become. Fireman.

[R.Mackey]

Paul checks in here now and then as "Sentinel," so maybe he can tell us more about the role of the FDNY Auxiliary. He does a good job of expressing his outrage at the idea of protesting at Ground Zero on 9/11. He has some notions that the government may have been involved in 9/11, but it's been impossible to get a coherent post about that from him here.
Yeah, Sentinel is a piece of work. Haven't seen him for a while. Somehow he wound up convinced that I was an undercover cop, and claimed I once accidentally shot a partner in the back... :eye-poppi I can only hope he's receiving the care he needs.

Very odd experience for me, I know another guy who goes by Sentinel, big in the world of scenario paintball. He's about the polar opposite of the slightly nuts, 9/11 conspiracy Sentinel.

The internet requires an agile mind.

[JamesB]

Just a clarification. The fireman, Paul Isaac Jr., is with the FDNY Auxiliary, which is a volunteer organization. I believe Paul does communications work. I don't know if that's a regular gig or if these volunteers are called on when needed. Paul checks in here now and then as "Sentinel," so maybe he can tell us more about the role of the FDNY Auxiliary. He does a good job of expressing his outrage at the idea of protesting at Ground Zero on 9/11. He has some notions that the government may have been involved in 9/11, but it's been impossible to get a coherent post about that from him here.

A funny FDNY story: Today at Ground Zero a fire truck was going by and it slowed down so its men could yell at the Troofers:
"Get outta here, you *****' a-holes!'
"Shut the hell up, you idiots!"

Well, Abby didn't want to be mistaken for a Troofer, so she jumped up and down and yelled, "I'm not with them!" She took a few steps in their direction, and I thought she was going to run after them, but that may be the reaction she has to firemen in general.

On my way home, my local guys at Squad 1 were at a call near my house. Twelve names on the side of that truck. Goddamnit.

Four of the Troofers said the FDNY were in on the "inside job."

Two troofers said the hijackers were also victims, just like the passengers and crew.

Is Abby hitting on the firemen again?

[Gravy]

Thanks for the clarification.

I am still sure he did his part on 9/11, unlike those F&*king creeps. To here Bermas go on and on, as ignorant as hell. I am sorry, but I just wish I had 15 minutes to tell him what I really think.
Understandable, but unlikely to have any effect on him. However, showing others what Bermas thinks can be very persuasive.

[Gravy]

Yeah, Sentinel is a piece of work. Haven't seen him for a while. Somehow he wound up convinced that I was an undercover cop, and claimed I once accidentally shot a partner in the back... :eye-poppi I can only hope he's receiving the care he needs.

Very odd experience for me, I know another guy who goes by Sentinel, big in the world of scenario paintball. He's about the polar opposite of the slightly nuts, 9/11 conspiracy Sentinel.

Did you ever shoot a partner in the back in scenario paintball? And did the scenario involve being dressed as Frank Serpico?

[Gravy]

Is Abby hitting on the firemen again?
It was a heart-wrenching scene there, seeing her torn between her sense of duty to the truth and her love for sweaty turnout gear.

[JamesB]

ROTFLMAO I am watching CSPAN, Alex Jones is claiming we had 44,000 US troops in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan before 9/11 in order to invade Afghanistan. That is equal to nearly 3 divisions, out of the 11 on active duty. Amazing nobody noticed. Why is it then when we invaded Afghanistan we only used a small amount of Special Forces, and even then it took over a month before they began?

[R.Mackey]

Did you ever shoot a partner in the back in scenario paintball? And did the scenario involve being dressed as Frank Serpico?
hahaha, no... Shooting in the back and betrayal is a regular staple, but we've never done a Serpico scenario. More like Pancho Villa (see avatar), Roscoe P. Coltrane, Wile E. Coyote, that kind of thing. Though once I played JFK (and was assassinated).

I've only played east of the Mississippi once, and that was in Pennsylvania. Sorry, it was a good theory.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Chicken Coop Arsonist has accidentally said too much:

Why It Is So Critical To Understand That No Planes Were Used in the WTC Attacks:
because it completely reframes the argument for why the WTC twin towers collapsed.

No planes-- no plane damage, no jet fuel fires-- no possible explanation for why the towers collapsed except for demolition.

Translation: "The planes must not have existed because the evidence for impact/heat warped steel is too strong."

A revealing admission from the no-plane crowd.

http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/

You can see more of his video games = real life nonsense in the posts just below the main one.

[Doubt]

ROTFLMAO I am watching CSPAN, Alex Jones is claiming we had 44,000 US troops in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan before 9/11 in order to invade Afghanistan. That is equal to nearly 3 divisions, out of the 11 on active duty. Amazing nobody noticed. Why is it then when we invaded Afghanistan we only used a small amount of Special Forces, and even then it took over a month before they began?

Kind of the flip side of the myths from the 90's. Some people thought that Clinton was going to hand over power to the UN. There were supposed to be foreign troops massing in the Mojave desert to enforce martial law. That was a big rumor from the militia nitwits. I wonder how many of them are now “truthers”.

[steve s]

A revealing admission from the no-plane crowd.

http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/

You can see more of his video games = real life nonsense in the posts just below the main one.

That's amazing. He's using Microsoft Flight Simulator to prove that the planes didn't hit the WTC. And we all know MFS is accurate down to nearest inch.

Steve S.

[Brainster]

I have to admit, I have not been following Jones' stuff too much because I lack the technical knowledge to refute him (I assume). But I was shocked when he talked about where he got his sample of WTC steel--something about a memorial and there was some dirt so this woman scooped up the dirt and had it for years until she heard about his paper.

Uh, did these folks ever hear of the concept of "chain of custody"? And I wonder if the woman's name was Lucy Ramirez?

[Brainster]

Chicken Coop Arsonist has accidentally said too much:

Translation: "The planes must not have existed because the evidence for impact/heat warped steel is too strong."

A revealing admission from the no-plane crowd.

http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/

You can see more of his video games = real life nonsense in the posts just below the main one.

He's impossible to parodize. I was thinking of doing a post on how you can't fly planes into buildings in Flight Unlimited 2--that they do indeed just crumble against the outside and then the plane falls to the ground. But he's already topped that.